Weekly E Bike Tech chat - December 22nd 2023 - CYC X1 Gen 4 & Bimotal Elevate

[@ericthedesigner]

Installed this kit on April 13th 2024. 400 miles on it today 4-17-2024 I ride it the same as my bbshd with a bac 855 which I've been riding since 2017 and performance wise there is no comparison. But Maintenance wise, the cyc will be way easier! standard components, easy to install and take apart in under 30 minutes easy. This kit has absolute no jenk! I'm beyond happy with this kit. I have it geared 30-30 tooth at the crank and an 18 in the back and the only reason it stops pulling at 36 mph is gearing. If I hopped to the 38 0r 40 tooth... whoa. I'm using all the same batteries and components as when I had the bbshd installed so it is an apples to apples comparison. dual 52 volt 20ah batteries , the only thing I had to change was the gearing. I had 42 crank on the bbshd with a 30 t cog. 26 inch wheels. It would just top out power and rpms at the same time. On the cyc gen4. ... 30 tooth chainring, 28 tooth cog and it still runs out of rpm in a hurry at 36mph up hill doing a wheelie. Ordered the 38 and 40 tooth chain ring set up today to give that a whirl. Lot of gear combos but I have absolutely no reason to go faster than 36 off road. Going out to ride now. 1:01 pm on 4/17-202

[@HighVoltageKits]

Good stuff. I’m not entirely on board with the ease of maintenance compared to say a bbshd but it’s not too bad. Hopefully it lasts you many thousands of kms :)

[@allenfromalameda5691]

Bravo! Your channel and videos are a tremendous asset o the DIY community thank you for the in-depth evaluations provided in this video. Manufacturers can’t fix problems they aren’t aware of, so these critiques might seem harsh but are helping drive forward product development and quality. The whole point of DIY is to achieve an equivalent level of performance, weight, durability available from major manufacturers for 3X to 4X the price.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks Allen. I try and be fair. I am also prepared to be wrong. So if this turns out to be a solid motor then I will be happy to report that as well. Good point about the DIY. I think in general the performance of a DIY will be far better. They do tend to be a bit heavier in most cases.

[@claverton]

Really appreciate how you maintain your independence ... so fair and balanced. Unusual in this day and age, especially on youtube.

[@nielsbaardseth]

Funny, he is promoting his own products and bash the compedator. Nothing independent here.....

[@HighVoltageKits]

What product do I promote in the video Neils? The Cotton Mouth? Really. You think that is a competition for CYC? Thats putting 2 + 2 tog get 5

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks. I don't want to tell people what to buy. I present things from my opinion and let people make their own mind up.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Niels is a good guy who makes some really cool bikes. I think maybe he is not understanding that I make videos for the community I run.. So it's based on my experiences and those of the community.

[@claverton]

@@nielsbaardseth puerile comment

[@ibmixin]

I run a x1 stealth gen 3 at 52v for mountain biking. No issues and I’m a season in about 1500 miles with no issues so far. I don’t use it at very high power support though.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Long may it continue. I'm being sent a freewheel from that one so hopefully I can do a service video for it. Watch it in heavy mud as they seem to get grit inside.

[@lukewalker1051]

You nailed the narrative. Data is in. I will speak bluntly as a mechanical engineer who knows the rigor of development, manufacturing variation and validation testing. All one can conclude is, CYC is not a company you want to buy ANY ebike motor from. Way too many reliability and durability issues with all generation of motors. Further, they charge a king's ransom for their motors. By contrast, the BBSHD has the reliability of a washing machine motor even when turning up the wick at much lower cost. Further, excepting the Photon which can be used as a space heater above 1K watts, CYC motors scream like wild monkey's in the jungle at night Thanks for speaking truth amidst all the false promises and marketing lies. Check is in the mail for each successive generation fixing so called old issues that should have been addressed originally and never comes. Merry Christmas John and to all who love building high power ebikes.

[@hindesite]

"Way too many reliability and durability issues with all generation of motors." Do you have any information to support this claim? Sure, there are lots of anecdotes and complaints, especially for the older motors, but when it comes to the Photon, I'm seeing a lot of comments from people who have never owned one, as well as comments from those with genuine issues. However I'm not seeing comments from those people with no issues and whose Photon is running perfectly. Without knowing how many have actually been sold, and how many have issues - and how easily are these resolved - it is really hard to substantiate your comment. Forums always tend to exaggerate the problems, it is why people post.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Hey Luke. Merry Christmas. I should be getting some footage of the Gen 4 being hammered pretty hard so we will know over the next year if this one is the one. The BBSHD is still the motor to beat in this area for reliability and service. I hope the can crack it this time.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are right. People in general tend to report a negative experience before a positive one. But people also tend to give up after a while so I think there are some untold stories from both sides. Quite a few people that migrate to our discord do so because they don't do Facebook.

[@jamesbenot4475]

I think this is why the BBSHD is still the king of the hill! Strong efficient and powerful! No questions asked even with a nylon gear. I've put many rear hub motors to shame by now. None of them compare to the BBSHD with a nylon gear. It;s superior in every way!

[@HighVoltageKits]

The only areas for me where the cyc has an edge is the mounting and the torque sensor. The m635 version of the BBSHD does have a torque sensor so that will be interesting to try. Hopefully some news on that soon.

[@uvwuvw-ol3fg]

One person on M635 JohnnyNerdout unboxing video said that Toseven has tighter press fit motor stators compared to BBSHD resulting in improved heat transafer. Not sure how true is that since as far as I know BBS02 stators can only be separated from housings by expanding it with heat.

[@VerumInquirere]

those first photo's, what a beautiful e-bike build

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks! It's looking really good. Should have lots more on that soon.

[@ambiorixcastillocina2730]

How could it make regen? That sounds nice.

[@ataksnajpera]

That background music... love it!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks. The LUX channel is well worth checking out. They were gracious enough to let me use the music.

[@TimChump]

Really good point what determines watt rating My stealth is rated 1500 watts but from zero it takes about 10 minutes @1500w continuous to reach CYCs 80 degrees C limit for safe operating temperature I’d say realistically the safe continuous is 1000 watts

[@HighVoltageKits]

I think companies just make it up. I know that Bosch and Shimano are allowed to self rate the motors. Which is why they are stamped with 250 watts even though the torque numbers keep going up every year.

[@chriss2295]

I find it amazing how the BBSHD is still the king of reliability.

[@Hybrid600]

The more I hear about all these CYC issues the more I love my BBSHD. It's pretty rock solid!

[@HighVoltageKits]

It's an iconic design. Hopefully I'll have some info on the torque sensing version pretty soon.

[@alank808]

Bafang had to go thru a learning curve to obtain the current status with the HD. I love my BBSHD as well just kidda like the torque sensing for off road. The pas on cadence units is not kind for technical stuff. Throttle only for me in the mtns and tech tight woodsy trails with cadence units. No throttle on the torque motors. @@Hybrid600

[@HighVoltageKits]

They did but the testing process was not inflicted onto the customer base in anything approaching the same way. There really was only one adjustment to the BBSHD I am aware of and it was to pinion shaft. It's funny though my own BBSHD on the Fatbike is pre this change in 2018/19 and its still going strong even though its pushing up to 4kw. Cadence PAS can work on trails but it needs very careful tuning to eliminate overrun and activate cleanly. Which most stock motors are not setup for. Karls Special sauce was transformational for BBSHDs being used in this way.

[@Hybrid600]

@@HighVoltageKits is this torque sensing version going to be a DIY style motor? And will it require a Bafang brand battery to be used with it?

[@dansacco1964]

Dont feel bad about your honest take on cyc. You aren't lying about the problems you have had. It's a shame. Their kits are beautiful and compact for their power level. The packaging and torque sensing bottom brackets had me really wanting to like them.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks Dan. I still have hope. I should have some footage from on if their main testers in the new year. He seems pretty confident about it.

[@mikldude9376]

I always enjoy your well thought out talks and testing mate , on the cyc heat topic , if they can get that warm in Canada, I’d be a bit worried about their use in a country with climates in the 30+ Celsius range , I am a bit of a old fashioned dude and nearly always make boringly practical runs on the board type choices in products , be it cars , trucks , or mechanical stuff sometimes to the point of buyers regret later because i didn’t splurge on the more risky but possibly more fun ( or potentially painful choice😊), but sometimes boring and predictable is still a good choice , I bought a BBSHD to put on my recumbent , hoping to get it on in January sometime . The quick release motor looks interesting, but I too would be interested to see how long it would work for, maybe instead of gears a toothed belt could be another possible option instead of the gears ?I dunno. Anyway have a good Christmas and new year sir. Cheers.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks. Hope you have a good Christmas as well. Good choice for a recumbent as they are a bit heavier. Love to see some pics on discord when you are done. Cheers

[@damianhambly6493]

thanks again keepin it real !

[@HighVoltageKits]

Cheers Damian

[@Akya2120]

SO, with the CYC motor being 25% longer it's actually going to be capable of cooling substatially better than the gen 3 length. Cooling is about the surface area, and the temperature differential. Granted, the rotor can't transfer the heat to the case which is where a fair amount of heat is generated. I do like the idea of filling the case with ATF, shame it was only successful in the short period. The one thing I recommended to CYC is to rotate the cooling fins 90 degrees so that air flow passes past the fins instead of stagnating it would be beneficial with minimal redesign. Seems like CYC rates their things where they break not where they are capable of being reliable. Which admitably is a strange practice, but in some ways it's good for your warranty. Just not good for your riding experience. I'm guessing if this was used at about 1kW continuous with the occasional bursts of 3-5k it would be reasonably reliable. They should really implement a core temp reading so that the controller can thermal throttle to avoid damaging components. That would be another huge boon to reliablity. I am just getting into E-Bikes and I invested in a Gen 4. I feel I picked the right time to do it. Hopefully they actually did sort their production line and will deliver around the end of January, but I'm not entirely concerned if they don't.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Good comment. It's supposed to thermally throttle. The 25% increase in length does not equate at a 25% overall increase so not sure where there 50% increase comes from. Not sure how they rate things but using it in short bursts rather than sustained will cause less wear and tear. Let us know how you get on with it. Cheers.

[@thebeaglebeat3615]

Love the detail in your vids.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks. Appreciated.

[@courtneybass9153]

You may be right about the gearing as I had 40t on bbshd and 38t on CYC. Pedal assist was definitely slower as it took a considerable amount of pedalling to keep it at 20mph. Throttle was ok but the noise sounded like the motor was not to comfortable going so hard for long periods of time. So very stressful to ride for me.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. Its 36:1 reduction on the cyc to the cranks vs 22:1 with the bbshd so that is also a factor.

[@NATO-SOCOM]

Good point about cyc using the consumer to test the motors and use there feedback to make improvements, I agree they should be doing that testing in house and put out a better product (not that I think cyc motors are a bad product, Imo they make the best mid drive motors currently on the market) and I think they would come out ahead by spending more on research and development by not having to do so many warranty claims on the back side like they do now. Although it’s really great that they actually do take care of there customers as stated in this video. That can’t be said for a lot of companies in the e-bike/pev space… I understand running at or near peak wattage is going to be hard on a motor and it has to be done within reason or any motor no matter the manufacturer or eventually it’s going to have problems, that being said..that’s imo how cyc markets their products and that’s how the majority of people who buy cyc motors intend to use them so I agree with this the opinion in this video, either lower the claimed voltage to reduce the amount of damage being done to the motor or make the motor capable of reliable use at the higher wattage

[@HighVoltageKits]

Hopefully everything goes well with your install. Its the 4th gen so you likely won't encounter the level of issues earlier adopters did. Short bursts at high power and make sure your drive train is up to standard. Things like a solid clutched rear derailleur. Good chain line etc

[@ryanmfitz]

I have also tested the bimotal at the electrify expo, its pretty cool. cost has to come down though

[@HighVoltageKits]

Oh really. What did you think to its chances of standing up to the abuse? What did it feel like? Was there any feel of power etc. Awesome you got to ride it!

[@ryanmfitz]

@@HighVoltageKits I was actually impressed it worked pretty damn good. I think it’s meant to make a persons fancy mtb, converted to an ebike without modifications to the actual analog frame. Just a different brake adapter and go.. battery fits in bottle cage

[@HighVoltageKits]

I like the bottle cage idea. They did not have that on the website.

[@ryanmfitz]

@@HighVoltageKits it would be a great way for my Status 160 (my analog trail plow) to get a little "ebike treatment" if I wanted to use it to put around on. But yes, that price point is rough. should be 1k USD.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. If it was just for riding paved bike paths then I get it. Still eye watering price though.

[@mrskywalker115]

Talking about the bimotal: Im way more on the mtb side and want to be able install and remove an ebike motor system as I travel and there are areas that dont allow ebikes so it would perfect. The biggest problem is it does put weight on the rear wheel as Id want it on a full suspension so its alot of semi unsprung mass so would hurt suspension performance but its so easy to remove Id use it for the climbs and remove for the descent at parks that are pedal up only. I agree the open gears are a bit concerning but then it is also at the center of the wheel where Ive noticed tends to stay a bit cleaner and I dont ride in poor weather conditions(not allowed on out trails at those times). I was really excited about the idea until I saw the price and that its throttle only as I would want to stay class 1. One thing it could do though that would be a nice add on is if it would be able to implement regen braking so the smaller battery isnt as big of a deal on a bike ridden downhill a good bit

[@HighVoltageKits]

They could do regen on it as it’s independent. I’m still waiting to hear how this system functions day after day and how it holds up.

[@richardyarnall5892]

I've had an X-1 gen 1 on 52V w BAC 855 controller for a couple years on a self built custom cruiser. Never been able to sort out the peddle assist sensor so its been throttle only for about 2500 miles. It's been run at 2800 watts for 20 minute stretches only on occasion, with most of its duty being in the less than 1000w range.Only thing I've replaced is the primary gear with the hardened version. Its turning a Gates driven Rohloff that has performed flawlessly except for wearing out the original primary. Proactively CYC sent me the updated rotor at my request but so far its been unnecessary to replace the original. I've recently had physical issues that have prevented me from riding so it's been largely idle for 8 months or so, but with other things more pressing I've not tackled a teardown and revamp that I'd like to do. One of these days.....

[@HighVoltageKits]

The original pedal assist sensor is a nightmare. I did get it working for a while but after plugging in a bac800 I left it after that. Great to hear from a fellow gen 1 owner. The gates and rohloff combo sounds great. One day I will have the dough to try one! Hope you are in a better place to do some riding again in 2024. Cheers

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

Yes! CYC always seems to come out with cool features but use their customers as beta testers. I had hoped that with the Photon they were taking aim at Bafang but reliabilty lets it down. That said I don't disagree with them about throttle(s in general). If you want to use throttle only the gearing should be lower than most people use to pedal or you stress the motor. For me there are 3 priorities in a motor RELIABLITY, RELIABILTY & RELIABILITY. The Bimotal is cool conceptually (very clean install) but can't have much power or range and being attached to my brake would scare me.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. I really really hope that this version is the final one. That people can be happy and secure in buying it. I am hopefully going to get some footage of it being pushed pretty hard.

[@michaelsprinzeles4022]

@@HighVoltageKits It's impressive but not the motor for me. I don't like the dual chain & I don't trust my bicycle parts (no hydraulic brakes) to stand up to the power I'd undoubtedly take advantage of;) The Proton on the other hand....TBD.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yes. If they are correct and it's mostly scaling issues then it should become apparent pretty fast

[@TechnicalUnderground]

Thanks a lot man !

[@HighVoltageKits]

Your welcome. Cheers

[@hindesite]

Well, I think CYC's response is actually very good. I would say that - it aligns with the way I have described my impression of the intended usage of the Photon. And certainly sorting out manufacture scaling issues is IMNHO where CYC need to be focusing their resources at present, rather than on having to support yet another system.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah I was pleased. Its encouraging and I wish they had been a bit more ready to have those checks in place based on their past experiences. Its goo that they are willing to engage with the community.

[@ataksnajpera]

In short: user error as always.

[@knooper88]

I have a x1 pro 2 with the bac2000 just roller over 5000kms. Same motor and controller. I am on my second chain ring though. Has been good!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Good to know. Long may it continue. What kind of power? Was it the 219 you replaced?

[@knooper88]

@@HighVoltageKits running the original 219, but have a spare if needed. Your BAC mount is holding up just as good! Running power level 3-5 fairly hard throttle cruising 60-70km/hr on the pavement.

[@mjohnny9949]

I have 3rd Gen. Stealth got it in March the first week only rode throttle notice the battery drains to fast switch to only pedal assist battery last longer only replaced the controller crashed on a rock.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. The controller hangs kinda low. You can make a mount and put it elsewhere. It's definitely a better motor with pedal assist imo

[@Fire-Man_Dave]

BGM is killer! Cyc is speccing motors like audio company's sell speakers and amps... Peak power ≠ RMS

[@HighVoltageKits]

Ahh man they still do that. I remember looking at the watt ratings in stereo magazines as a kid trying to decide on the loudest speakers. Luckily my Dad was a science teacher!

[@john7643]

Cyc x1 gen 2 with 3000kms running at 2500watts, 21s3p. had to change the 4 bolts for the clutch as the twin sprocket broke the hollow bolts 1 at a time, and the hall sensors quit at 2500kms but still running strong, turning off the halls made no difference, mostly to work and back, 20min rides, with some trail rides

[@HighVoltageKits]

Nice. I presume you adjusted the fold backs on the bac to get the higher voltage. That's one good thing about those controllers. They do sensorless operation very well. Appreciate the comment. Cheers

[@chrisregister8021]

I plan on getting a stealth and only running it at a 1000 watts. I figure that should make it last and it will also save the drive train

[@courtneybass9153]

Because cyc did not update the lead time on their website from 8 weeks to 13 weeks coupled with all the troubles people had with their motors on facebook groups I was always nervous whilst the motor was on my bike. Also, with the same battery as I had with my bbshd & BAC 800 setup the cyc was rather slow compared to the bbshd. Since then I’ve returned to the bbshd with a BAC 855 and I’m happy without any stress or issues.

[@HighVoltageKits]

The bbshd 855 combo just keeps running and running no matter what you throw at it. I did think they were pretty comparable in speed though. Might be down to gearing. Glad you are enjoying your riding.

[@uvwuvw-ol3fg]

Some people reported that ASI BAC controllers keep getting bricked for them forcing them back to stock controllers or Ludicrous controllers. HV kits might be more refined in terms of programming though. Since I have EM3EV 14s6p battery with Samsung 35e cells known for high internal resistance then there is no other choice but to get used to the stock controller a bit more due to low mileage.

[@HighVoltageKits]

The bricking this was because the baud rate of the Blue tooth connection was switching. Once it switched you cannot connect to the bac. The only way to fix is to hook it up to some PC software. We have never had that issue as we do not use an app in the same way CYC were using one. CYC struggled with the BACs for sure. Its a hard one to use. We are lucky in that we have one of the best in the business doing our programming. The 35e cells are great for range but not high power. A future upgrade perhaps! Cheers

[@Hoggdoc1946]

The overall physical design of the CYC motors is appealing to me. However, this glued magnets are another story. As for the 5 kw rating possibly a 2.5 kw continuous rating would be more accurate and thats still a powerful motor.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sounds more sensible. The design does allow for alot of mounting flexibility which I like as well. 2.5 kw is plenty for most people.

[@jaimezrecords]

I just bought the CYC photon would you please tell me what are the best settings to avoid the issues? Thanks

[@HighVoltageKits]

I'd leave it on the 750 watts max and ride it pedal assist. If you want to run it unrestricted just do it in bursts and switch back. You can monitor the temperature pretty easily. If yours is a recent one it should have all of the production fixes they implemented. Hopefully they prevent the issues from the first few production runs.

[@igypop.]

Settings for Watt and Nm: set to 3 assist levels STREET mode limited to 25KM/H (for EU) and in RACE mode set to unlimited KM/H, throttle not in use. Settings RACE: 1. 400W & 60% Nm 2. 600W & 80% Nm 3. 800W & 95% Nm Setting STREET: 1. 350W & 50% Nm 2. 550W & 75% Nm 3. 750W & 90% Nm Battery EM3V 52V 930W. torque sensor settings all 75% so far so good..; however, your mileage may vary..

[@kb-rl1pn]

Jan. is a coming! Zoom zoom!!😁

[@HighVoltageKits]

Can't wait mate!

[@Gyllbonus]

Hey Captain...thnx for the bimotal review. I would have to say i 100 percent agree with your points... Plus the price point is way to crazy for me. I would loved to see would you can do with the bbs02 as far as upgrading the controller and ect. since you've covered almost every motor on the market that I've had my eye out on... Unless you think the bbshd is the motor to have it off the bafang motors. Thanks so much your the best and happy holidays Captain. Cheers

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are very welcome. I think in terms of the Bafangs if you have a choice then go for the BBSHD. Although there is the new m635 torque sensing on out now. I will try and get some more details on that one. I will be playing about a bit with a friend BBS02 in the near future so potentially that might help you. Hope you have an awesome time with friends and family! Cheers

[@uvwuvw-ol3fg]

Will see if the M635 will also have any improvements such as thinner stator laminations or anything else.

[@raylo4074]

Good video. I have a CYC X1 Pro Gen 2 with BAC 855 and mostly like it and it still runs fine. But it is low mileage and when I ride this bike it is mostly pedelec, not throttle. I have a 52V Samsung Q cell super shark and that works well. enough. I do short bursts on throttle that can take it over 40 MPH. Like you, I will contain my enthusiasm with the Gen 4. Whilst I have not had any trouble with my Gen2 there have been lots of changes, like dumping the BAC, like "freewheel 2.0", etc. So, I will wait and see if they really have this thing dialed in this time or if the public are once again to be beta testers. And even then, these are really too noisy to my liking. I don't for a second believe their oft repeated claim that this new generation is quieter than the last. The noise is baked into the double chain design. I also have a Photon on another bike that I like a lot and my use case is exactly as CYC laid out in their answer to you. That's a great pedelec setup, IMO but I eagerly await the Proton so I can also drive fast on throttle when I want to. One thing I didn't see covered is that they claim to have improved the bottom bracket hardware for the Gen 4, I believe to make the threads and shell more robust. On my X1 Gen 2 the threads were soft, shallow and exceedingly delicate. I damaged them a bit threading it into the bike but was able to clean them up with a file. But the piece was just way to delicate.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Good comment and I'm not entirely sure. They just say improved and don't put things side by side to say how and why. Mainly because then they will be forced to talk about why things failed. I just saw the latest video and it's got music all over it. People are literally saying no thanks to the motor because of how it sounds. You say it's quieter show us it's quieter right.

[@dude770725]

For that full power, you probably have to use Lipo batteries instead of LiIon. Lipo have usually much higher discharge rates, but not that much capacity.

[@HighVoltageKits]

That's a good point actually. You could use some Lipo for it. I have a saddle bag setup that would probably do it.

[@dude770725]

@@HighVoltageKits watch out for Badass or Gens Ace drone batteries, they can have up to 80C discharge rates

[@HighVoltageKits]

Cool. I used Tunigy LiPo..Sadly a couple have gone bad so I can't run the 72 volts. Unless I buy more and I'm not going to do that mostly cause i need the money elsewhere lol

[@ryanmfitz]

debating if I turn my ristretto over to a LR motor or Gen 4 version of x1 pro.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Interesting idea. I thing you could get an LR in that space. It would be an interesting conversion. Apparently part of the reason for doing this Gen 4 was for those bikes. Either way it should be something cool to share with the community. Cheers

[@nielsbaardseth]

I have allways like the HV vids, but in the latest vids the launch of own products and bashing Cyc goes very hand in hand. I have both HD motors, LR motors and I have also been testing the X1 since 2019, Stealth since the releese and same with the Photon. My last testing has been the Gen 4/X12 since the summer 2023. Why would the frame bend Why would the battery be too small? What does that have to do with the Gen 4? It is ok with a 10kw LR? For the record, I have not been able to break any parts of the Gen4 in 6 months.

[@nielsbaardseth]

I am all for product honest testing, but this is a type Luna cycle bias sales campaign. HV sells aftermarket parts after all.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks for the reply Niels always appreciated. To answer your question I am referring to lateral swingarm flexing under load. In the giat trance at 4kw its about 1 inch. It varies from frame to frame. In terms of the batteries most people use small packs with CYC build with very few parallel groups. Which is relevant with these high numbers of 5 and 8.5kw. The DH frames being used don't usually have room for big batteries. So these high power levels will rapidly degrade them and result in much fewer life cycles. It is encouraging that you have done all of this testing and not broken it. If you would like to supply footage and details of your bike with the drivetrain I am sure people in our community would be very interested to see it. This is not meant to to bash CYC but I have a healthy dose of skepticism for a fourth attempt now to fix problems.

[@HighVoltageKits]

We sell upgrade kits for the BBSHD yes. But I did not mention them at all in the video. If it was some sales campaign then its not a very efficient one. There is no new product we are doing coming out in the next while that this is preparing for.

[@nielsbaardseth]

@@HighVoltageKits As for frame I had several dh bikes with no flex, even with a 10kw Big Block. But I might have been lucky. When it comes to promotion and sales I know you guys have great products. No question about that. BUT there is also no question about the more you get people to listen to you the more you sell. HV is a shop, not a indipendent product tester. Put's you in a very special position in your community. And to be fair, Cyc products and HV kit's basically are fighting for the same group of customers. HD kits, Lightning Rods or the last 855 kit you are developing.

[@100westfields]

Can you fit a mid motor system to a marin san quentin 3 if so what's the best system

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sorry I missed this. I’m not too familiar with the frame. Best bet is to join our discord via the links and post some photos.

[@ibrahim84iam]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@HighVoltageKits]

Cheers

[@andrewford9974]

Anything more than 5KW just do a DD hub motor I think at 5kw not really a electric bicycle anymore. Just a lightweight motorcycle maybe the photon or tosevens motor is the sweet spot for bicycles

[@HighVoltageKits]

I mean the BBSHD handles it up to 4kw. But yeah once you get higher in power its harder and harder to build something that lasts and is reliable.

[@macauleyc64]

Iv seen videos of the bimotal on tiktik and its quite aggressive on throttle but thats not really under load and on dry concrete

[@Adi7x]

CYC Stelth with it's 2 kw is mostly too much for the frame and the drive train already. I run it at max 1 kw. Not to mention my engine started to have problems when i reached 1,5 kw

[@HighVoltageKits]

The Stealth is not a big motor really. 2kw is excessive for its size. It’s the same style as the Photon

[@arronjohnston742]

i'd never mount a motor like that last one, even having a drive sprocket mounted to the disc mount worries me as those are really small bolts...

[@HighVoltageKits]

It's been done on quite a few of the LR motor kits without issue although not in quite the same way. I think they are M6 for the ones we are using. Its more the two bolts for the caliper that concerns me.

[@arronjohnston742]

@@HighVoltageKits i knew yours were upgraded but most wont do that and i agree the caliper mount is not made for it especially on alloy frame bikes

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. A steel might be ok. But the ones listed I think were Alu

[@keithwelch8563]

Which is better for a single speed the CYC or BBSHD?

[@HighVoltageKits]

If your frame will fit the motor, which is an important consideration because the bbshd is less flexible than a cyc a modified bbshd in my opinion is better than a cyc running single speed due to the High rpm and torque available. The X1 needs gears to get the best experience. If you are looking for help with a build our Discord is a good place you can post photos of your frame if you have one already. There is a link in the description. If it's a newer full suspension frame the bbshd might not even be possible.

[@trailride814]

What about batteries i have the b series battery i have mines mounted on the down tube on my transition patrol my issues is the tire rubbing on the batterywhen landing off a jump. Will there be a smaller or thinner battery ? I have the gen 3 stealth since may 2023

[@HighVoltageKits]

I'm not sure what CYCs plans are battery wise. It sounds like you might need something custom in that space. You are welcome to post photos on discord. We can see what kind of space you have on the frame.

[@724horndawg]

I'd like to know why they're still selling the older.versions at all!!!!

[@HighVoltageKits]

They have productions runs. So usually they reduce the costs. Its pretty common to discount older stuff to shift it. They did with the ASI controllers for a while.

[@Zestybwoi]

In your opinion what would be a sensible power rating to set the cyc x1 limit to for reasonible longevity?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I would use max power just for bursts when you need it. You can have three levels of power so you can always drop it. Try not to let the motor run at high rpm very hot for a long time. Long hill climbs are where I ran into issues. Most people I have heard of with high mileage tended to use 1500-2000 watts and ride pedal assist a fair bit. Keep the 219 chain nice and clean and well lubed. If it gets dirty then those sprockets will wear out quite fast. Much depends on the weight of the bike and rider and the stress on the motor. Make sure you are using the right gear for the time. So avoid bogging the motor down in too high gear.

[@Zestybwoi]

@@HighVoltageKits Thanks for the in depth response. Is there a good forum where you found all this info?

[@Zestybwoi]

@@HighVoltageKits Also, do you think it there would be enough clearance to wrap a few layers of carbon fibre tape around the rotor to help retain magnets at high rpm? I've seen this done in the aerospace industry for high rpm machines.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I am not qualified to say on the carbon Fibre. It's pretty tight in there. Supposedly the gen 4 has now got keyed magnets. Which we suggested they do way back in gen 1. So it's possible this is greatly inprove it. I would confirm the motor has this as it should improve the variety. In terms of a server I like our Discord server. There are lots of very skilled people on there. Cheers

[@falcosparverius1]

Small light weight motors and high power is inefficient and creates lots of heat that requires water cooling to keep them from burning like a phoenix. I’ve tested this long ago with a modified Optibike with a small motor & planetary gearing, the only thing that they have improved is a larger motor with stronger neodymium magnets vs sintered.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. They do seem to have dialed back the numbers a bit on the website now. References to 8.5kw are gone.

[@CamiloSantana]

end of January LA trip... is there an e bike event going on there?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I got nagged into Disney and Universal with family but I am taking the opportunity to meet up with North Bay Bikes tho and test the Cotton Mouth.

[@CamiloSantana]

@@HighVoltageKits 😅 awww, man. well hey those are good tourist destinations... I took a visiting friend to the skydiving simulator in universal years ago. they had a blast. I hope SoCal welcomes you and apologies ahead of time for all the douchebaggerie traffic.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Appreciate it. It will be the largest urban area I have ever been to so I am curious to see how it feels. Hope you have a good holidays cheers

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

Bafang and QS are the only motors I've used or have any faith in so far, other than hub motors..I want to like CYC motors, and hope they sort out their engineering and quality control issues..I'm only interested in bikes that can go 35-45 mph and or slightly faster, consistently, that are dependable over the long haul...Genuine transportation and fun to ride to soak in some nature...Not interested in a throttle not meant to be used..And I don't care about torque sensors, I'm fine with cadence sensors..But, everyone has different use cases that will determine what they want from their bikes..

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. A lot of people feel the same way. One day I will get to try one of those big hub motors that just push you forward like the hand of god was behind you. Appreciated the comment. Cheers

[@TheAETHER22]

Are their motors battle Hardened this time? Its almost 2024. Flipsky had them like this for years

[@HighVoltageKits]

We will have to find out. I am trying to get some footage of one on the first units being put through its paces.

[@ChristianRennow]

Is this the Rockit proto type?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Which part of the video are you referring to sorry. The last bit or the first bit?

[@elektrorider3507]

Continues power should be actually measured over 1hr run

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah that test would be pretty revealing I think.

[@elektrorider3507]

@@HighVoltageKits indeed this is believe industry standard for continues power definition. For sure it does apply to EU regulations where in the 1hr run the motor must achive stable temperature at the end and do not get permanently destroyed.

[@youtube7076]

what im looking for is just honesty... mfgrs just need to be honest...

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. Can't agree more. Some places are better than others but they all bend the truth or dodge the hard questions. The official question and answer skipped over all of the hard questions asked of this motor.

[@hindesite]

Meanwhile on my Photon my left crank has deteriorated to the state where yesterday it needed tightening every few kms. Despite installing it correctly, and immediately tightening if it does become loose, the interface seems to be completely flogged out. I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this; and the right crank has given no problems. ISIS has been around for a quarter century, failures like this should just not happen.

[@nielsbaardseth]

You get new arms if you ask.

[@HighVoltageKits]

My experience is that its the spacers that can lead to this. I think if too many are used then it can mean that no matter what you do the splines are not fully in. You may have luck removing those or going with less than you had. It worked for me.

[@hindesite]

@nielsbaardseth needs a new shaft, too. Haven't contacted CYC yet, have they fixed the problem? Who else has this issue?

[@hindesite]

@HighVoltageKits I looked at that, and removed all the spacers.there is a fraction of a mm of vlear air when tightened fully, still didn't fix the problem. The right crank was always a press fit, the left one was never a proper press fit even when new. I think this is a tolerance issue with either the shaft, the left crank, or the securing bolt bottoming out instead of fully pulling down the splines. I thought I had resolved the problem, it has worked for 400km without issue until suddenly deteriorating yesterday, so watch out.

[@hindesite]

@@HighVoltageKits just as a matter of interest, do you have 165 or 175mm cranks? Mine are 165.

[@Hybrid600]

Interesting that you mentioned the Bimotal. I came across a couple short vids last night on this guy's channel: kzbin.infoEMzSZ0zsLyw Thought it would be cool to have this on the front wheel of a mid-drive bike for extra traction on demand. Much lighter and simpler than a front hub motor but also WAY more expensive though.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah there are a few clips but not of the kind that would give me confidence in it being a long lasting product. Appreciate the link. Cheers

[@Hybrid600]

My dream bike would be a Christini AWD with 72v/4000w 🤘🏻

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sounds awesome. Make it reality!

[@Hybrid600]

@@HighVoltageKits One day! $$$$ 😅

[@markifi]

is it just me or 10 000 km being "high milage" is completely insane? i used to ride that much a year on the non-electric bike. burning through a motor every year doesn't sound fun

[@HighVoltageKits]

No it's not High milage. I have far far more on my BBSHD and after its service it requires a regrease and a tiny seal. The chainring is still good. The bearings are still good. Hopefully this generation will be different.

[@hindesite]

You may be surprised just how low milage the majority of ebikes are. It isn't unusual to see expensive, 3-4 year old bikes like the Trsnce E+1 for sale at under 1000km. I suspect the majority of ebikes are bought, ridden a couple of times then parked up in a garage or shed for the rest of their life. People who get seriously into ebikibg without already being keen bikers are the exception. I have many friends and neighbour's who have ebikes and never use them.

[@BramBiesiekierski]

Emtb are often very low KM compared to E communter bikes. A standard trail/enduro ride might be anywhere between 20km at the low end and 50km at the high end. And finding time to do this more than once or twice a week can be difficult. That's only around 1000km to 2500km per year.

[@hindesite]

@@BramBiesiekierski that is true, but that applies to eMTBs that are bought for use on trails. The vast majority round here are used for purely road use although probably not commuting. It drives me nuts - these riders then find the bars too low to be comfortable, so they lower the seat to try to find a more comfortable position, then start complaining about knee pain. Shoulda bought a hybrid or city bike, but they don't look as "cool".

[@hindesite]

I'll reiterate my previous comment about the Bimotal. Uugh...

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. It seems pretty fragile to me. We need to see it get abused and how long it lasts.

[@ataksnajpera]

2000 USD for motor without torque sensor? Nice scam!

[@HighVoltageKits]

It does not even have a cadence one. It does seem very overpriced for what it is. One of the guys in our discord said it felt pretty good to ride though and the battery fits in the water bottle mount. But I think it will just break pretty fast.

[@happygiraffe9787]

CYC has lot of potential but someone is making the wrong decisions in the high-up department. We need robust, well engineered motors that can widthstand abuse. That means mechanical engineering skills for dissipating heat, monitoring the heat etc durable components. Move to Vesc base esc is nice but locking it out of normal vesc tool is a di*k move against diy build community. I also think they got too many motors if they release a new one in the family. One big, all-in motor and a smaller daily commuting motors would be enough when designed properly. Then even the smaller motor would have bit more grunt if needed.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. I really hope that this is the last generation for a while. That it can have a run of some years without it needing upgraded parts. Fingers crossed.

[@happygiraffe9787]

@@HighVoltageKits Cottonmouth kit with a diy battery + a strong controller might become a good, perhaps way better alternative for CYC. Fingers crossed it goes smoothly for you!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Appreciated. I don't think it we can compete for volume but it will hopefully become on of those little gems that people wanting to put the work in can enjoy! Cheers

[@hindesite]

Generally disagree. CYC are already showing thar they have a winner with the Photon and are revising their approach to product support - I wish them luck. Their product range as it stands is just about perfect, if they improve the quality and reliability they'll be fine.

[@ataksnajpera]

@@hindesite I wonder what CYC is going to do when Toseven DM02 will have finished firmware regarding torque sensing. 1000 usd vs 500 usd. LOL!

[@Fubar684]

I have seen broken swing arm pivots on mountain bikes. Just sayin…

[@HighVoltageKits]

I would want a really overbuilt swingarm. I would not do it on a budget bike frame. I think that the ones to go for would be simple functioning ones with less complexity.