Weekly E Bike Tech chat - December 29th 2023 - 3 Wheel Tilting E Trike & Micro Hydrogen Propulsion

[@space.youtube]

That you've bought into that hydrogen vapour ware fairy tale is hilarious. You remind me of the sort of person who believes elon's starship will get us to Mars.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Glad I've amused you. Sorry to pop your bubble though but I don't buy into anything. I have no shares in this company or own a vehicle. If you want to explain why it's vapor then I'd love to hear your opinion as to why it won't work. Without that your comment kind of falls flat. What about it is a fairy tail? My mind is not closed to future possibilities, is yours?

[@longrove5710]

@@HighVoltageKits While I don't agree with the tone of the OP's comment I must agree that Hydrogen is dead. The simple logistics and cost of production make hydrogen impossible. If the current cost of hydrogen dropped by 75% it would still not be viable. Battery + supercapacitor + faster charging = the future.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I have never been a fan of it for car use scale. I am interested to see more about this microscale. I like the of the supercapacitors as well but I am yet to see a truly effective version with those just yet. I think we should be open to many things as a mix of technologies IMO is better than going for one particular technology. What works amazingly in one location might not be viable in another. There are alot of companies still researching Hydrogen fuel cell technology. They must see something. Maybe it is dead. It will be interesting to see how to company answers some of the harder questions that are put to them.

[@michaelellis9889]

Excellent video. Keep thinking about stuff.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Always. Cheers Michael

[@BobLinton]

Yes!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Cheers Bob

[@Gyllbonus]

That reverse tilting trike is like a smaller version of Sway Motorsports scooter... It's a really cool concept

[@HighVoltageKits]

Maybe they will send me one to test. 😆 Cheers Gyl

[@ochenGsUp]

Love these videos

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks. Its greatly appreciated

[@johnarnebirkeland]

My problem with many of those concept bikes, is that they are often form over function. Looking like they come from some space age far into the future, instead of a normal practical, efficient and proven bike design. And Bafang going back to having a working DIY solution for their new products again is the best news ever!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. The car companies that do expensive ebikes are the worst. Its like they give the job to the junior designer who then uses the job to try and impress their way into a car design role. Very little time spent on practical and functional design aspects. For some reason people keep clamering for Tesla to design one. Good news from Bafang for sure. Cheers

[@tptrsn]

Great video sir! I have to say, in the near term I am most excited about the new BBSHD-esque torque sensing motors like the DM-01 and M635, and then the awesomeness of all of the Lightning Rods low-key motorcycles/dirtbikes. But in the longer term, the hydrogen fuel cell stuff is by far the most interesting topic for me. I just can't see the current battery technology being able to scale up enough to become truly main stream.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks. I got alot of questions regarding the hydrogen system so hopefully the developers are down to answer some of the harder ones. In terms of resources alot of it is scale. If you look at North America there has been a huge shift to SUVs. If that had not happened then right now there would be approximately 30% less fuel brining consumed. So if the evs are predominantly SUV style they will need way more resources than if they are smaller lightweight ones. Appreciate the comment. Cheers

[@tptrsn]

@@HighVoltageKits It would be amazing if you could get them to answer some of the more detailed questions for sure. So far for me, hydrogen fuel cell tech just seems a little bit like a fairy tale, but I want it to be real. Lol

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah much like super capacitors and sodium batteries but it's changing fast.

[@whoaitstiger]

Well, I know what the frame for my next big build is going to be! 😁

[@HighVoltageKits]

No pressure then! 😆 Cheers appreciate the support

[@colincampbell4261]

The hydrogen technology is very interesting.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. I'm trying to get a chance to interview the people involved and ask them some of the more difficult questions.

[@SkyGizmmo]

Hybrid Super Caps and Battery....Regen is so so much better captured by capicitors.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Looking at a capacitor bike next week. Cheers mate

[@mechpade]

I'd buy that Eflow frame with a normal mid-drive unit. Doesn't have to be a that futuristic!

[@HighVoltageKits]

I don't get the impression they are making frames beyond a demo machine. I could be wrong. They are also making an axial flux motor which looked pretty neat.

[@mechpade]

@@HighVoltageKits that sucks. I’d like to see more quad options in the market. Gotta find someway to stay upright in snow 🫠

[@quantumfx2677]

From what I hear the arcimoto has come to and end months ago. I really wanted to purchase that trike.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Damn really. Does that mean their larger ones are done as well? I did think they were kind of expensive. Do you have a link?

[@SteezyG]

I think the best do it all frame out there that focuses more towards versitility is the Frey CC bike. I love my folding fat bike but there are a few little niggles that could be ironed out.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Its a nice frame. The battery space is a bit limiting for me. It's also tricky to get any kind of regen with the suspension setup. Decent frame though and it would fit the Cotton Mouth drive.

[@thecatat7]

Just found your channel. Subbed! I am also very keen to hear more about the Bafang mid-drive motor with own use battery. Sadly the country where I live it is almost impossible to import Lithium batteries. I would like to try LifePO4 as an option. They are somewhat readily available here.

[@MiniEvrides-ll2kx]

There's prebuilt ebike batteries with lifepo4? Or are you throwing some and attaching that to a bike? Even with the added weight it would be nice to have batteries that last 10x as long

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks! There are a few people on our Discord using lifePO4. It's a good chemistry. Less energy dense though. Depending on how far you have to travel it should be possible though. You are welcome to join our Discord channel for help with this stuff. I would get a hardtail frame with a big triangle on it of you are considering lifePO4. Maybe with room for a cargo rack. More space to fit the battery. Cheers

[@HighVoltageKits]

Not aware of any prebuilt yet for ebikes.

[@thecatat7]

@@MiniEvrides-ll2kx There are no ready built lifepo bikes available here, but lifepo batteries are fairly readily available here though.

[@thecatat7]

@@HighVoltageKits Thanks, the Discord channel would be great - but would need to learn how to use it, I am only familiar with forums. Can I have a link please? My MTB is a hardtail so there is ample space for the larger size lifepo battery, weight is a bit more than lithium too, but for me the upside of the safer chemistry is important. The bike will be for mostly medium length commutes, I guess 20 miles and the occasional easy mountain / off-raod trail.

[@polunu]

Not really sold on the generator crank setup. It could have a gearset on the trike, but it looks like they just want to make it unique at the expense of utility. I do enjoy the pedaling experience, so I might be biased... Boosting your range with a hydrogen tank instead of 15lbs of batteries could be huge for certain customers (delivery comes to mind), but it does add a few more links that could fail, hope it's robust.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Me neither. How much power could you really get in there using it as a stationary bike. I'd rather get the exercise as an ebike. I have seen a few of these pedal by wire things and the feel of them is by all accounts not the same. The weight gain will be offset with the fuel cell but even so the range ought to be greater and yes. Reliability will be key. Great comment. Cheers

[@garyseckel295]

Already own MY perfect frame design! My Hase Lepus has 2WD, directly under my torso. 2WD directly under any cargo, AND the rider's weight! Also has independent rear air suspension! 95% of riders do not need tadpole sportscar handling. Do not see highly jack-up 4WD vehicles tipped over, yet they could tip over. Rohloff gearbox, e-assist, and 25-inch seat height for this wheelchair/dual forearm crutches, no-balance, 70-Y.O. handicapper! Once a gearbox, never again any cassette! Well over 30-years of recumbent experience here. Cannot ride my tadpoles for over 15 years now. Forgot to add: 250W moves my 350-pound body very well, AND.., it is Bicycle Trail Legal!!! Never outgrow a delta planform trike. Grow oldest on a delta planform trike. Gary AKA: "Jason Stillwater" in the recumbent world.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Sounds like a labor of love. Thanks for sharing 😀

[@140theguy]

Three 250w motors can provide more torque that a single 1000w motor. That just might be enough for most people. All wheel drive makes a huge difference on E-bikes. I have one myself.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah especially when those 250 watt motors are likely 750 to 1000 watt peak. I have not tried a dual hub motor ebike yet. What model do you have?

[@140theguy]

@@HighVoltageKitsAbsolutely. I have a Keteles k800. Duel 1000w motors with a 23ah 48v battery. Perfect for a 300 lb guy that rides in the mountains. $1400 delivered. It was my first ebike. It's funny you mentioned a bike with a 8000w motor, I'm currently building one, but not for the power. Being 300lbs I over heat 1000w motors even on small hills. I will never over heat a 8000w motor at 30 mph. Especially with low amps. With a 65 amp hour battery it should go 100 plus miles at that speed. I like to ride the 45 miles in the mountains to the ocean from my house. It will go fast enough I may register it as a motorcycle just to go faster if I want. Also, for the record I do pedal my bikes but I'm recovering from a third stroke and really only have one leg. Try pedaling over a mountain with one leg! lol Thanks for the video👍

[@HighVoltageKits]

You are welcome. Love to see your build on our Discord community if you fancied. It sounds amazing. There are links I'm the description

[@MiniEvrides-ll2kx]

I definitely would like to see more small enclosed city vehicles that could do 50+ and do everything short of the freeway without getting run over where traffic is doing 40. Unfortunately theft, security and tracking all needs to be taken into account before they end up in the back of a thieves van going to the next town over

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yes. Theft and recovery will be huge limiting factors. I imagine this would be an expensive vehicle. There is nothing mentioned about built in anti theft or tracking. A good question to put to the company.

[@grantsvlogs]

200th like 👍🏾

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thank you! It help loads.

[@dougnash6316]

We still haven't figured out how to strip hydrogen from existing fuels. Hopefully that will come. 👍👍

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. I think that hydrogen has been written off by some too soon. I like this micro approach. Cheers

[@dougnash6316]

The idea of having a 10000 psi gas bottle between my knees is a bit daunting though

[@timrandenso2794]

Great video. I to like the idea of more micro mobility options. Especially in the city's. And from what I hear, owning a car in the future will be a luxury that most will not be able to afford. Hydrogen could be the way to go . I agree that the battery technology we have at the moment is absolutely crap for many reasons.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I really like. I keep thinking about ways in which it could be useful. Hopefully I can get some more detail from the people making it. Cheers Tim

[@joehiatt1992]

Just came back on my 02,have 2 hd's also,the 02 is as fast as my hd's,good to see changes,I have the pinoff changes on mine ,on #4 Im mooovin on the trails,most of the time Im on #2

[@HighVoltageKits]

Nice! Great feedback Joe

[@Hybrid600]

The 02 is an underdog and most people go for the HD because they think the 02 won't be powerful enough but it can easily hold it's own. Great bang for the buck and power to weight ratio.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. Treated right it's solid

[@joehiatt1992]

@@Hybrid600 Its also less noticeable because its slightly smaller ,johnnynerdout also said the 02 is just as fast,I just did another 28miles on the 02 & it hauls,I know people buy these things as scooters & do no pedaling Im a cyclist(14 bikes) so the pedal assist is awesome for me

[@Hybrid600]

@@joehiatt1992 yeah coming from BBSHD bikes, the BBS02 surprised me when I first tried it. Certain upgrades are considerably cheaper for it than the HD too, such as if you want the 40T Lekkie chainring with drive cover. 52v works well on the BBS02.

[@georgefinn3832]

Great channel I'm very interested in the news that the Bafang m635 will be compatible with any battery looking forward to your updates on this also the ToSeven mid drives

[@HighVoltageKits]

Cheers George. I will do a comparison pretty soon

[@markifi]

velove used to use one of those hydrogen fuel cells as a range extender for their electric hexacycle but it was prohibitively expensive for the average person

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yes. Cost is a very question and I would like to know how much the system will be. I have a feeling it will need to be a pretty big partner company to get it off the ground. Something like UPS or Amazon. Maybe a supermarket chain.

[@colincampbell4261]

Offshore wing farms are ideal for producing hydrogen. The problem is distribution infrastructure.

[@markifi]

it's not just that@@colincampbell4261 one of these fuel cells cost 5-20k euros if you can even outright buy them. the one velove used (hymera) is as far as i see only available via a long term lease. they are the size of a microwave oven, and only ~150 watts, and you still have to carry the canister of hydrogen besides that, which is about the same size. and about 7-8 kilos. hydrogen generators have their place but i'm not sure it's personal transport anytime soon. you're much better off spending the same weight and money on extra batteries and a fast charger if all you want is hours and hours of pedal assist on a heavy bike

[@quantumfx2677]

Lots of ebikes on the market today and yet I feel they are missing something with their complete packages and as ebikes advanced I believe will will see a excellent all around here ebike hitting ever area well.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I hope so. The Cotton Mouth is pretty exciting. I hope to get my frame design finished as well. Cheers

[@quantumfx2677]

@@HighVoltageKits You have been doing excellent work and I'm right behind you with it! This is what it takes and I would love to see this explode!

[@lukewalker1051]

My 2 cents... 1. I look forward to you testing the torque sensing M635 Bafang motor with non-proprietary battery of your choosing. Many of us may consider this motor as alternative to perhaps the most important motor in the DIY e-bike space, the BBSHD. 2. I look foward to see what you propose for a new DIY frame the industry is in desperate need of and pretty shocking this void has not been filled as alternative to conventional bike frames many of us convert. If you opt for dual suspension frame design which would be nice but not essential, I am hopeful that you provide an ample triangle space a la old school dually mountain bikes of 10 years+ ago. As you know, the latest dual suspension mountain bikes from leading bike manufacturers have a much more closed off frame triangle now that isn't conducive to mounting a nice big battery with a lot of amp-hrs BBSHD motors and derivatives require at 1500+ watts for adequate range. For that reason, hardtails are typically the DYI mid drive build of choice whereby a large shark battery will fit within a more ample triangle. Love how much 'on point' you are in your development addressing what is missing in the industry. All the best in the New Year and cheers to DIY e-bike builders everywhere.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Cheers Luke. Hope you are also enjoying some much needed R & R. I think the frame will check the boxes that you are mentioning. Based on what others have said it looks like the battery is no locked. Hopefully I will be able to get access to one next year so I can have a play with it. Appreciate the comment mate. Cheers

[@Voltermort]

New to the channel and very impressed! I purchased an HD on ebay and receieved an M625. Canbus eh... I was wondering if there has been any modifications in the last couple years to allow people to use their own batteries with this system?

[@HighVoltageKits]

Thanks! We are not at the point of unlocking the canbus right now sadly. You can however replace the controller and get round it.

[@Voltermort]

@@HighVoltageKits thanks for your response. That is what I have discovered thus far after searching more. I suppose that a bbshd controller would be the easiest, but do you have any other recommendations that are economical?

[@HighVoltageKits]

@Voltermort that’s your best bet bang for buck. Our kit is 650usd

[@Voltermort]

@@HighVoltageKits appreciate it. Would you recommend 48v or 52v ? I guess that's a silly question for mrhighvoltage lol. I've heard of more controller failures with 52v

[@HighVoltageKits]

I never had any issues but every system out there has occasional failures.

[@colincampbell4261]

What motor do you intend using with your bike frame design?

[@HighVoltageKits]

I want it to work with many different ones. Including the DIY ones. Some of the bracket ones. As much flexibility as possible.

[@colincampbell4261]

​@@HighVoltageKits I look forward to your see your design.

[@colincampbell4261]

Offshore wing farms are ideal for producing hydrogen. The problem is distribution infrastructure.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Solid point. Scale comes into it. You could have semi automatic production and then delivery to a port at which point it maybe goes to a delivery company with a fleet of these. Due to the scale that would shift alot of vehicles and cargo for a long time. If we are talking cars and trucks the infrastructure cost balloons exponentially.

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

Having a home solar system allows me to power my vehicles,and there is no Cobalt in LIFEPO4, which makes better batteries for home solar and transportation..While the batteries are heavier, they get 3 times the amount of cycles..There are alot of issues with hydrogen, just stopping the stuff from leaking is one issue..The infrastructure is another, safety is another, low energy density is another. $ and the cost. Solar is over regulated, I could just imagine the regulations with hydrogen, considering the leakage issues and how easy it is to ignite, with a static electricity spark or a cell phone from a long distance away..Hydrogen is 20 times more flammable than gas.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I will ask about leak testing. That's a really good point. The regulations and how they are approaching things is fascinating to me. We do have some cars using hydrogen so there must be some way to do it. But it might rule out the home usage. I like lifePO4 very much. Great for home use. Hopefully they can improve the energy density. I also like the sodium cells and will look at those in a future video. Great questions. Much appreciated. Cheers

[@MiniEvrides-ll2kx]

I thought most batteries got 3-500 cycles before reducing to 60% of the original capacity vs lifepo4 going 4000+ cycles before reducing to 80% Then again the charge/discharge can have a huge effect

[@realeyesrealizereallies6828]

@@MiniEvrides-ll2kxThere are different kinds and grades of LIFEPO4 batteries..My prismatic CATL grade A solar system battery cells are 10,000 cycles to 80%..The round kind for my bikes battery is 3,000 cycles to 80%..Regular Samsung or LG lithium ion are usually 1,000 cycles to 80%..There are also pouch cells for LIFEPO4 and grade b prismatic cells,, My 280 Ah solar system cells tested at 292Ah's when new, four years later they are 286Ah's..Still above their completely full rating..

[@eonreeves4324]

that pedal generator thing is a pipe dream, a regular human can put out 250-350watt continuous. Now do the math on how long it would take to recharge the battery pack lol you going to pedal continuously for like 3 days lol

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yup. The way they had it in the video charging up like that is misleading. Maybe some people will use it for stationary exercising. Kind of niche though.

[@eonreeves4324]

@@HighVoltageKits lets say for every mile you pedal on stationary you might get 80% of that back into the battery pack lol you are not getting a free ride any way you slice it

[@HighVoltageKits]

Agreed. It might appeal to people short on space that really want a stationary trainer. But how many is that.

[@mcspikesky]

Are the hydrogen startup taking investment funding..? Because thats all theyre gonna do. I work with a guy who made carbin fibre tanks for hydrogen. Goooooood luck! Ill be a little more curious when i dont see only CAD. Thats very hyperloop.

[@HighVoltageKits]

There are bikes made. I just could not get anything decent to put in a video. Not sure I like the idea of carbon Fibre for Hydrogen tanks either. I'm trying to get an interview so I can ask some of the tough questions and the response to those will be revealing. I have a healthy dose of skepticism for anything like this. It would not be the first company to promise something and the disappear. Like the super capacitor company. I think it was e-store or similar.

[@frederickoparah1669]

Hi, do you know the office site for Eflow Micro Hydrogen System? I want to do some research. Thanks

[@HighVoltageKits]

Its in Korea. Not 100% sure where. The main developer is a guy called Charlie. I'm hoping to get an interview. I think there are contact details him on the eflow website although it's a nightmare to navigate.

[@frederickoparah1669]

thanks what is the official website please.@@HighVoltageKits

[@HighVoltageKits]

eflow.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=livesbody&wr_id=11 I give you fair warning. Navigation is hard!

[@alankemp1970]

Hydrogen is interesting but just too inefficient to refine, you will always need more energy to refine than you get out so best to put those electrons directly into a battery for everyday use. Plug directly to the electrical socket to transfer to a battery negating the losses from conversion.

[@HighVoltageKits]

I mean you do get losses in electrical generation as well as transmission losses. I see this being potentially an option (if it works as developed reliably) for certain case uses rather than a do everything solution. If you have excess electricity to store and easy access to water. Remote communities where grid connections are hard and they currently use diesel generators. I am really interested to see how they respond to the difficult questions when they are put to them.

[@alankemp1970]

Maybe hydrogen to replace diesel generators for large ships or remote locations, battery storage still works out better though. Latest figures show 55kwh of electricity gets 33kwh of useable electricity from the hydrogen plus all the extra complex engineering and maintenance requirements. It’s interesting though 😊

[@kjm-ch7jc]

Personally when you get an e-bike with the performance of a small motor bike, I'd go the legal route, safer for me and other public road users. We all know these illegal bikes are seldom used on dirt tracks and most are used by food delivery riders illegally.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Food delivery drivers are not riding around like reckless hoodlums. They are working their asses off to provide for themselves and families in often difficult circumstances. Police go after them because it's easy pickings. The problem riders are the ones that don't stop for the police. There is a big difference between a bbshd running 1500 watts delivering burgers and an 8000 watt thing being ridden irresponsibly. It's the attitude of the rider that should matter. If they are being unsafe then it's a problem just like it would be with a car user. I don't think draconian restrictions on ebikes make people safer. If they did wouldn't it make sense to restrict cars to the maximum speed limit as well?

[@140theguy]

You must be taking about Surron electric dirt bikes. Those are dirt bikes, not E- bicycles. Those guys are ruining it for everyone else. I can hear Grandma's voice... those damned hotroding kids!

[@colincampbell4261]

Toyota have done loads of r&d with hydrogen.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Hey Colin. Probably they are the world leaders. I think much of it is going to be Japan focused, where it will be easier for them to build out the infrastructure. I'm less keen on its prospects for mass use in car type vehicles. This micro scale to me makes it more viable. In many ways why I see rapid deployment of LEVs more viable as they put less strain on electricity networks.

[@vanivanov]

Ehh... H2 on capacitors will be a fail. 1. That PEM aircooled FC will make max 1..1.5 kw with a lifespan of around 400...600 h 2. Generating H2 from water is very inefficient process 3.H2 is difficult to handle in general. H2 may be very good fuel to be used in certain applications but micro mobility is not one of them.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Okay. So skepticism of this is totally understandable. If they only last 500ish hours then it's not viable. But where are you getting that number. Are you a Hydrogen propulsion systems engineer? From my own reading extraction of Hydrogen using electrolysis can be up to 80% efficient. If its using spare electricity from Hydro or wind power does it really matter? You might be prove to be correct. But I think its an interesting concept and I'd like to see how they respond to questions. One of them will be what is the lifespan of fuel cell. Another will be how will safety be ensured with fueling. Cheers

[@ataksnajpera]

Hydrogen fuel didn't work in car industry so why would it work in e-bike? Even Norway shut down all hydrogen fuel stations. Simplicity and low cost will always win with complexity and high cost. E-bike with hydrogen is just a overenginered gimmick.

[@HighVoltageKits]

You might be right. I have always had a healthy dose of reservation for using hydrogen to power cars. Mainly due to the enormous cost of building out infrastructure. But I am interested in this because of the scale involved. I don't think that hydrogen fuels are some magic bullet but I also don't think they should be written off either. I think they could have a role. Just maybe not this one solution fits all fuel it was touted as by some.

[@patrickbonin137]

So its soon 2024,progress update on human land based transportation... Horse,camel,donkey,steam power,electric car,gasoline car,diesel car,airpowered car,lpg car ,electric car again,hydrogen fuel cell,hybride car, I have had a bafang Bbshd fatbike for 5 years at least ,with standard bafang controller with a karls special sauce update, the batteries are heavy and the cg is to high, no torque sensing,the suspension is unsuited and my fat ass legs doing the French can can dance to get over the cross bar is annoying when is some one going to revolution the concept,get rid of the chain and put a direct drive unit place the batteries as a floor pan like cars and keep the cg at the bottom end,put a suspension in rear down posts....if I had a large 3 d printer and the time this would be a game changer...and if we really want to save the planet its not lithium,cobalt or hydrogen or oil the solution good old fashion pedal power...maybe we have come a full circle...maybe induction powered bike..no carting batteries around imagine a complete induction cycle bike paths...getting to work would be easy...bring back 2 wheel bumber cars lol..happy new year to all the team and keep up the good work.@@!!

[@HighVoltageKits]

Hey mate. Hope you having a good holiday. Bumper cars sounds kind of fun. Progress is a strange thing. I always remember the line from Jurrasic Park. Everyone spends so much time invested into can we do something. Less time is spent considering whether we should. I don't think the genie is going back in the bottle transport wise so it kind of leaves us to do out best with technology. Have a good new years! Cheers

[@arronjohnston742]

i agree in some cases ebikes are better but they can't replace everything and i don't agree with forcing people to switch in all honesty the only reason i built an ebike was because ICE is illegal even tho you could once buy bikes with little 2stroke motors on them, i'd prefer an ICE as i enjoy the mechanics, people should be allowed the choice not be dictated to by tyrants

[@HighVoltageKits]

100% agree. I am never going to get into this kind of culture war absolutism. There is not a fit all solution. I am going to keep our older car going as long as possible. We rarely use it for longer journeys. So buying a new Electric car to then rarely get used would be little pay off. It would take us 12 years to offset the extra cost of manufacturing with our milage. In 12 years I know there will be something better in any case. But back to your point. No one likes to be forced or told what to do. Which is why I try super hard to present the information as I understand it and let people make up their own mind. Thanks for making an important point. Cheers

[@arronjohnston742]

@@HighVoltageKits i'm not always directing my comments at you, there's a lot of EV nazis out there with no idea how ev's are made but push lies anyway. i agree on the car thing i'll be keeping mine as long as i can but i don't agree "12 years to offset manufacturing of new EV's" no way it'd take a lifetime to "offset" if there is such a thing a new EV, look at solar panels they cost about $40 each to recycle yet you're lucky to get $3 in rare earths hence why they get sent to landfill, old cars are easily stripped down and parts reused EV's don't have any such luxury, in the US there's a small market but it's very small and only works because you can pick up wrecked teslas etc cheap, where i'm from(aus) no such luck everything costs a fortune! eg, one of your 72v batteries here in aus i could almost buy a new surron unless i went for a cheap unknown china battery, no thx... anyway point is most of the ev stuff goes straight to landfill, i've been hearing about magical salt batteries since i built my first ebike back in 2015 honestly not much has changed... to me the good part of ebikes is almost silent running and somewhat clean running requiring little to maintain them making them good for regular people..

[@HighVoltageKits]

Appreciated. I think there is misinformation on both sides. I hate the term green. Just like save the planet. They are not helping us. I will look a bit at the sodium next week. Have an awesome weekend mate.