Were Caves Carved Fast from the Bottom Up?

[@VernCrisler]

Never thought I'd sit through a lecture discussing the formation of caves. Excellent ideas.

[@JDsVarietyChannel]

Good work. Very informative!

[@jonathantyson8744]

I was in a cave that had a metal railing installed with 3-4” stalagmites already grown. That rail hadn’t been there 10 years. Hard not to question things you’ve been taught by “those who know”.

[@iam7712]

What cave would that be? Actual facts like where and exactly when would be nice.

[@vladtheemailer3223]

Any competent geologist can explain it to you. Have you been to a cave where the stalagmites have hardly grown in 100 years?

[@AtticusLaineBlos]

Where?

[@guylelanglois6642]

Those ceiling channels to cupolas look like they were formed by hot water rising like a geyser. I wonder if when Yellowstone dries up, it would have the same features? I wish I could come to one of your seminars. Next time you go to St Helen's, maybe. I was there ten days before the eruption, and in Kennewick when it erupted. Love your work, sir.

[@turtlegrams6582]

@@guylelanglois6642 ; Good example

[@sciencerules2825]

95% of all limestone deposits come from the shells of marine creatures such as coccolithophores, foraminifera, corals, mollusks. When these creatures die their calcium containing exoskeletons sink to the ocean floor as soft sediment. The accumulation is very slow, on the order of just a few cm every 1000 years. Eventually after being buried deeply enough the soft sediment lithifies into hard limestone. Now for the story in this video to be correct: 1. The Flood had to have enough nutrients to cause massive blooms of this marine life, enough to form hundreds of meters of sediment from their shells in one year. 2. Somehow the fresh sediment had to lose all its water content and lithify into hard limestone. 3. More acidic water showed up from somewhere underneath and blasted out these caves in the limestone. 4. The acidic water all drained away. 5. More regular water carrying the remains of Pleistocene mammals then washed the remains along with non-limestone mud depositing into the caves. 6. The remains then fossilized in the non-limestone mud deposits. Anyone want to defend or amend this scenario? 😜😜😜

[@kurtdejgaard]

Amend? Yes! The fossils were dragged into the cave by dinosaurs. They were fluent in English - like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. They wrote the lyrics to "The River". Bruce Springsteen killed them all, to steal the credit for the song. (And that's how they went extinct)

[@karinlofgren6359]

Super great Kurt!

[@testdep]

the vid was released half an hour ago and devil's lil minions are already here, they just can't click fast enough to watch Dr Wise and write how much they disagree with everything he said 😆

[@marktapley7571]

That’s because people are exposed to Zionist propaganda in the public indoctrination centers(schools) from an early age along with MSM and gov propaganda. Once indoctrinated you can hit them with all the truth and it will do nothing. Climate change “viruses”, “wars”, “shootings” all exampled

[@billcook4768]

Accusing people of being devils minions for disagreeing with somebody on how caves are formed???

[@testdep]

@@billcook4768 do you identify as a devil? no? did I offend some of your friends?

[@billcook4768]

@@testdep I don’t think you cut anybody deeply. But it indicates an unwillingness to consider different possibilities.

[@xploration1437]

The earth is absolutely not young.

[@rhondahasegawa2853]

Your enthusiasm is contagious! Another great video! Thank you for your work.

[@TheStacman]

I am from Crossville always wanted to go in Salt Peter cave. One of my middle school teachers used to explore in there a lot.

[@sciencerules2825]

I've yet to see a Noah's Flood explanation which didn't require invoking multiple supernatural miracles. From removing excess heat and radiation caused by Accelerated Nuclear Decay to dispersal of the animals from the Ark to the reconstitution of complex ecosystems. If your explanation relies on multiple miracles why not just say the whole thing was one big miracle which left no physical evidence?

[@frostbitevinnie]

I went through Ludlow Cave a few months ago, north western South Dakota. Really strange formations inside which correlated with your video. Thanks!

[@DaysofElijah317]

The few caves I’ve been in here in Missouri I thought the same thing without knowing all the technical terms it looked like a whole mess of water had passed through them rapidly

[@fieldday1418]

Never really thought about this, great video, thanks.

[@AlexanderosD]

This. Is. Fascinating! Always love getting to hear your theories Kurt, thank you for sharing brother!

[@janehelbert7551]

Fascinating!

[@janehelbert7551]

I understand what you are saying!

[@joshuataylor3550]

That's surprising

[@chrismessier7094]

right away this model starts with an acidic solution. HPT provides that overabundantly =D

[@taylornesby8984]

Channels on the ceiling?! I would’ve been so confused! Lol. Thank you!

[@deanweaver4469]

Thanks for sharing 😌🙏

[@davidbakara5044]

I’d like to speak with Kurt Wise sometime. I live very close to Cleveland, Ga….I could use some of his thoughts for a museum exhibit.

[@nowaistedspace4946]

Those river channels look like where giant roots used to be and have rotted away.

[@janehelbert7551]

Perfect explanation of Noah's flood - waters from the deep!

[@joshuataylor3550]

Noah is a fictional character, grow up

[@rcmodelr]

​@joshuataylor3550 if you actually believe that, then your intelligence is also fictional.

[@markrademaker5875]

​@@joshuataylor3550Joshua, you give me the impression that you think there is right and wrong; is that because your distant ancestor is pond scum? Do you think pond scum is the origin of right and wrong, good and bad etc.? Thanks. I am here to learn and share The Truth. 🙂

[@chrismessier7094]

waters of the deep = HPT = Walt Brown B)

[@sciencerules2825]

@@chrismessier7094 Walt Brown = wackaloon = most other YECs won't touch his "hydroplate" nonsense

[@sciencerules2825]

The big question no creationist will touch - how did the Flood manage to deposit 200-300m thick layers of limestone in the first place? Limestone sediment slowly precipitates out of still water, less than 5mm / 1000 years, and is formed from the shells of tiny marine creatures called foraminifera. It *doesn't* form in a flood.

[@Video81501]

Many address this question. Don't know where you've been hiding.

[@sciencerules2825]

@@Video81501 Then give me your explanation.

[@vladtheemailer3223]

​@@Video81501Addressing isn't the same as demonstrating that this can all happen rapidly.

[@kensmith8832]

We also have to address the fact that the rock can have many different densities and makeup. Some of these features look like root and trunk channels from ancient trees, from before the clay turned to stone. The floodwaters create pressures that can cause erosion beyond the understanding of these theories. Many of the caves I have been in are eroded fault lines. We can look at the rocks surround Boone Lake and see how quickly the rock with erode, as the lake has only been there for 70 years. The black limestone is wearing away faster than the theories depict. This says the theories need to be updated. Black limestone is extremely hard limestone! I have issues believing the narrative is worth the paper they are written on!

[@AtticusLaineBlos]

What theories are you referring to?

[@kensmith8832]

@@AtticusLaineBlos both theories spells out in this video. I thought my comment was thorough enough for a geologist. But you aren't educated.

[@jt4998]

Brilliant!

[@dougmoore4653]

seems to me these things may happen either way as the water if FULL in the tubes. it would be more telling if the water is FLOWING downwards or upwards along the tube. water flowing downwards if the tube is full can still erode the top part. I might imagine that the acidic water is more buoyant and thus at the top of the water flow.

[@frankathfrankath]

So when Genesis talks about the great fountains of the deep coming out from below is this what Kurt is describing here that formed these caves?

[@Video81501]

Probably not. These processes were later.

[@deanweaver4469]

And Amen !😮😊🙏

[@ApexLight7]

Was fossilization happening after the flood too? How were the cave animals fossilized after flood waters receded?

[@VernCrisler]

They were buried by mud.

[@colbullsigh6823]

COO'-po-law: Like a steeple-like cupola on the roof of a house or building.

[@michaelstrauss6587]

....very interesting....

[@kcstafford2784]

i dont see any acid pools in my spelunking says the rocky mountan man

[@normhannawell3029]

Are any of the caves from the fountains of the great deep that were broken up?

[@rcmodelr]

In all likelihood, the majority of the caves were formed when the fountains of the deep were opened up during the flooding of Noah's time.

[@bookofrevelation4924]

Possibly the caves with land animal fossils were formed during flood and older caves without them existed before flood and could have signs of being broken up?

[@cosmictreason2242]

Highly unlikely since the fountains were beneath the bottom of the current ocean

[@normhannawell3029]

@@rcmodelr thank you

[@normhannawell3029]

@@bookofrevelation4924 thank you

[@krisv001]

Interesting! Good video!

[@nicksavage4763]

PROOF AN OBSERVER CAN LOOK DIRECTLY AT SOMETHING and NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THEY ARE LOOKING AT THE MORE YOU KNOW THE BETTER TO BE AWARE🎓 🎉

[@wardlewis4921]

Are you leaning more towards Walt Brown's "Hydroplate Theory"? I love your presentations and learn a lot. Thanks for posting.

[@sciencerules2825]

You mean the Walt Brown's "Hydroplate Theory" which violates mots of the known laws of physics? The one that has continents drifting 3000 miles in one 24 hour day, an average speed of 125 MPH? The one that has the asteroid belt being formed from rocks blasted off the Earth by the FOTD? That "hydroplate" theory? 🤪

[@artifacthunter1472]

Most caves were formed after the flood because the sediment and the tectonic movements during the flood changed the entire face of the Earth.

[@vladtheemailer3223]

Caves form very slowly. The process is well understood.

[@roberttorres6859]

⁠@@vladtheemailer3223the theory is well understood

[@vladtheemailer3223]

@@roberttorres6859 Either way, we know how it happens and the process is slow.

[@onefeather2]

Water comes from the deep Also , i agree.❤

[@marktapley7571]

What is the Pleistocene?

[@GuenterBechly]

What is Google?

[@helives2630]

​@GuenterBechly why be a jerk? You took the time to fashion a specific response showing your obvious knowledge of the pleistocene and now you can be bothered to insult people but not actually educate them? For all of your knowledge, what you lack is the greatest thing you could gain.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

The Pleistocene is the geological epoch that lasted from c. 2.58 million to 11,700 years ago.

[@GuenterBechly]

@@helives2630 because I am always irritated when in 2024 someone still posts such a question on a forum and waits for an answer by some random person of questionable competence, instead of typing exactly the same string of letters into Google and get an instant correct answer. It was meant as a kind of advice in the spirit of „it is better to teach a poor man how to fish than to just give him a fish“ 😉 By the way: You have a very aggressive and negative attitude that does not ring very Christ-like to me (see you other comment below mine).

[@Video81501]

It means the ice age. Forget the fictional dates associated with it.

[@ThomasAllan-up4td]

Early man would not have lived in caves. Too easily trapped. They probably used them as temporary shelters. But never as homes. You will see in some cave paintings of hunting scenes; Decorative of what might be for sale in these temporary little shops. They certainly sold meat in those days. Also booze. Which is why they also have hand imprints, to measure the age of prospective buyers of alcohol. Nobody would have wanted to be found selling booze to children. A form of age identification.

[@kurtdejgaard]

Quote: "You can almost sense the water flowing up. It doesn't make much sense, going down". Answer: Except perhaps for physics! Water does not run up, in channels. Never once has an example of water running upwards been seen by anybody. Water, when running, follow the laws of physics. Water from the bottom (hydrothermal vents, for example) disperse, as soon as they exit the ground below. (PS. The desperation to come up with something that doesn't contradict the Genesis storyline, is both visible and audible).

[@sciencerules2825]

The laws of physics are optional when dreaming up creationist explanations. 🙂

[@djsarg7451]

Day is not the same as 24 hours, not in the past and not today. The earth is not about 6,000 years old and the Bible does not teach this. Hebrews 4:9-10: "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his." This tells us that the 7th day Each believer are to enter into day 7. Also there no "evening and morning" for the 7th day. As day 7 as not ended. Biblical Hebrew has a limited vocabulary, with fewer words compared to other languages, such as English or Spanish. This means words often have multiple meanings determined by context. Day - yom is commonly rendered as day in English translations, but the word yom can be used in different ways to refer to different time spans thus literally is: Sunrise to sunset Sunset to next sunset Time period of unspecified length. (long time span ). We use the word day the same today: In my grandfather’s day cars did not go very fast. I work the day shift. (Both are not 24 hours) Deuteronomy 33:15 and Habakkuk 3:6 "ancient mountains". Gen 2:4 “in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” referring to the whole time of the six days, The events of day 6 can not have happened in 24 hours. Creationism does not equal young Earth. There are many Old Earth creationists.

[@heinpereboom5521]

In Genesis 1 verse 1 no time frame is given, so no one knows how long this took. In Exodus 20:11 the entire creation is perfected, so this is a different context. It is better that we do not add or subtract anything from Bible texts, this is also stated in Deuteronomy 4:2

[@djsarg7451]

@@heinpereboom5521 I agree so why do YEC leaders delete from the Bible: Hebrews 4:9-10, Deuteronomy 33:15 and Habakkuk 3:6, Romans 1:20, Psalm 19 1-4, and Gen 2:4. Why do YEC leader act like Jews Pharisees says we must keep the 7th day. When the NT teaches that 7th day as not ended. And for the Jews the 7th day was not always 24 hours. The Jewish practice of the seven-year land rest, is a commandment from God to leave the land of Israel fallow and not work it every seven years. So a day is a year? Day is not the same as 24 hours, not in the past and not today. The earth is not about 6,000 years old and the Bible does not teach this. Hebrews 4:9-10: "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his." This tells us that the 7th day Each believer are to enter into day 7. Also there no "evening and morning" for the 7th day. As day 7 as not ended. Biblical Hebrew has a limited vocabulary, with fewer words compared to other languages, such as English or Spanish. This means words often have multiple meanings determined by context. Day - yom is commonly rendered as day in English translations, but the word yom can be used in different ways to refer to different time spans thus literally is: Sunrise to sunset Sunset to next sunset Time period of unspecified length. (long time span ). We use the word day the same today: In my grandfather’s day cars did not go very fast. I work the day shift. (Both are not 24 hours) Deuteronomy 33:15 and Habakkuk 3:6 "ancient mountains". Gen 2:4 “in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” referring to the whole time of the six days, The events of day 6 can not have happened in 24 hours. Creationism does not equal young Earth. There are many Old Earth creationists.

[@VernCrisler]

You need to take a course in hermeneutics.

[@heinpereboom5521]

@@VernCrisler I don't have much to do with learned people who explain something because they think it is right. Making up your own theory about everything doesn't seem like a good thing to me. Theologians are the right people to explain Bible texts, they know the origin of the meaning. You also have to be careful about accepting stories from learned people. Take for example Martin Luther, a great reformer, a learned and intelligent man with courage, but he was also a great anti-Semite, given his clear statements about Jews, which were really not based on anything, but were just his own opinion. The same goes for the current Pope Francis, who says that God caused the big bang but cannot do everything and has let evolution take its course and lo and behold, here we are now. Many people also believe what the Pope says. To me this is a very strange statement from a church leader that I have heard, because then everything is based on coincidence. This invalidates Genesis and Jesus has become a random passer-by who just tells something about the sin of people. Scholars from the Vatican who want to prove God with astronomical research and have a radio telescope for that, it is getting crazier. Adding or subtracting something from a Bible text is not wise (Deuteronomy 4:2), then division arises and various churches, as well for interpretations of learned people who think they know it and think that we should think that too.

[@djsarg7451]

@@VernCrisler When someone replies with name-calling or insults, I know the person has not one idea about the topic at hand.

[@BlueEyedColonizer]

So the huge deep pits really could be the fountains of the deep opening up. I always joked that's what they were

[@VernCrisler]

No.

[@sciencerules2825]

Does this guy really think there is only one explanation for cave formation for all the caves on the planet?? Good grief. 🙄

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

A: Well, he DID offer the hypothesis for all of the "North American limestone caves"... B: And he also said that we have "older caves than these, but they contain zero land-based fossils". I think I'm quoting him accurately enough. A + B = No, he didn't try to explain ALL caves in the world in one statement.

[@samburns3329]

@@PatrickKQ4HBD In the title and description he doesn't say *SOME* caves form this way. Every time he just said *CAVES* form this way. That's amazingly disingenuous and misleading if was only talking about some caves.

[@samburns3329]

@@PatrickKQ4HBD _but they contain zero land-based fossils_ Do some quick research on *cave paleontology.* There are many cave systems in the U.S. alone which contain fossils of terrestrial species. Carlsbad Caverns in NM contain the fossil remains of many extinct mammal species.

[@Meow-xx6oo]

@@samburns3329 didn’t he say there are no pre-pleistocene fossils in cave sediments?

[@samburns3329]

@@Meow-xx6oo Yep at 34:40. One more silly and easily rebutted claim with no connection to reality. For example we have _Australopithecus_ fossils found in the Sterkfontein Cave in Ethiopia which date to between 3.4 to 3.6 MYA. The Pleistocene goes back to 2.58 MYA so his claim is disproven right there.

[@wotaj]

I wonder if this explains the rapidly growing number of Sinkholes on the Florida peninsula?

[@sciencerules2825]

This is ridiculous. Caves in limestone karsts were formed by water eroding the limestone from the top down. We can see the process at work today. This guy would get laughed out of any geologic conference.

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

Because we see it today, that doesn't prove it has been going on for thousands or millions of years.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

Absolutely! These clowns seize on one little scientific fact and distort and twist it to try and prove their delusional old myths are real. While there are some caves formed by hypogene processes, the vast majority of them aren't. I notice he didn't address cave formations, that depend of water dripping down for thousands of years! Or maybe water also drips upwards in his world.

[@VernCrisler]

Not if conducted in Europe.

[@andrewshear2927]

No they were not. Caves are formed from rainwater dissolving limestone. Creating spaces and passageways.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

That's the old way of interpreting the data. This is another way to interpret the same data. Isn't science great?

[@mirandahotspring4019]

Some caves are formed by hypogene processes, but certainly not all of them, or even most of them. The proposal that they were all created that way because of the flood of Noah is just absolute preposterous nonsense!

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@PatrickKQ4HBD Not when it is deliberately misused to try and give credence to an ancient collection of myths and fairytales.

[@all41tja]

@@mirandahotspring4019 Do you know any limestone caves that doesn't have the features discussed?

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@all41tja I spent several years as a tour guide in limestone caves and it's pretty obvious how they formed, and it wasn't from water coming up from the deep!

[@mirandahotspring4019]

So, some cave systems are formed via epigenic processes and some are formed by hypogenic processes. It doesn't mean all are hypogene caves. Formation of stalactites and stalagmites depends on dripping water and water doesn't drip upwards! So many caves are obviously epigenic. Vertical entry shafts are often caused by collapse of a section of the cave roof long after the cave beneath was formed. This changes nothing! The very old age of many caves has been well established by reverse paleomagnetism in cave formations. To suggest all caves were formed by hypogenic processes caused by the mythical global flood of Noah is just absolute nonsense! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Video81501]

Two separate processes. 1) cave formation 2) Later modification (infilling w/ stalactites) You are assuming it was all the same process.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@Video81501 A continuation of the same process.

[@opendstudio7141]

Which leaves the question.. How acidic was the great flood during Noah’s time?

[@VernCrisler]

Probably as acidic as the current ocean. Why?

[@vladtheemailer3223]

​@@VernCrislerThat's not enough to form the caves rapidly.

[@opendstudio7141]

@@VernCrisler if it may have something to do with concentrations of various crystalline formations found in localized pockets.

[@VernCrisler]

@@opendstudio7141 Possibly. My understanding from the lecture is that it's the underground water that is acidic, and percolates up through the limestone.

[@joshuataylor3550]

Embarrassing that adults cling to fairy tales.

[@thomasmyers9128]

I’ll pray that the truth will find you….

[@turtlegrams6582]

🤍📯🕒⏳⌛; josh, please explain sea shell fossils & fossil jellyfish on top of the Himalayan mountains

[@adamguy33]

​@@turtlegrams6582easy, they flew there

[@tmjcbs]

@@turtlegrams6582 Plate tectonics...but then, nobody has seen that at work, so that doesn't count for creationists...

[@robbysguitars8223]

A fool says in his heart, "there is no God".

[@AtticusLaineBlos]

Speculative nonsense, like all creationist bile.

[@xploration1437]

Creationists are a cult.

[@KKing55]

Did Global Warming cause the Flood... Or Catastrophic Geology? LoL~!

[@turtlegrams6582]

🤍📯🕒⏳⌛; Thank You Teacher , Excellent