Were Cocaine Sentencing Disparities "Racist"? | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@macibranch6901]

I appreciate Glenn’s honesty and vulnerability talking about his addiction. Nasty habits are nasty.

[@4seth]

I feel the same. I always trust people more when they are honest about the dark periods in their life.

[@figward]

Thanks for sharing and adding light to the issue.

[@loadsbutty]

Love these guys Always fascinating + enlightening to listen to

[@jthomasstthomas]

Second! Weren't the meth laws just as stringent as the crack laws? Heather McDonald has pointed that out.

[@thomasreaves588]

The crack laws of the 80's and 90's were way more stringent that today's meth or opiod laws.

[@deenzmartin6695]

what are you seconding?

[@jthomasstthomas]

@@deenzmartin6695 I was second to comment.

[@jthomasstthomas]

@@thomasreaves588 I'm not referencing today, but the past. At the time when the crack laws were incredibly stringent, I read that the same was done for meth. Here's a section of what she has written: "The press almost never mentions the federal methamphetamine-trafficking penalties, which are identical to those for crack: five grams of meth net you a mandatory minimum five-year sentence. In 2006, the 5,391 sentenced federal meth defendants (nearly as many as the crack defendants) were 54 percent white, 39 percent Hispanic, and 2 percent black. But no one calls the federal meth laws anti-Hispanic or anti-white."

[@deenzmartin6695]

@@jthomasstthomas gotcha.

[@jamesbarton1969]

'How Politicized Classrooms Harm Kids and Ruin Schools - And What We Can Do About It' by Bonnie Kerrigan Snyder. This book, which is starting very well, has a forward by John McWhorter which, while short, may be the best thing he has ever written, at least in my opinion.

[@julianfischer2341]

Cool!

[@theblindprogrammer]

Can you give us a gist of the book?

[@jamesbarton1969]

@@theblindprogrammer pretty much what it says, teachers in k-12 spending time on political ideologies, which belong in the family, instead of core teaching. Since anti-racism is the hot thing today so most of the examples have been on that. The author is approaching it as an educator more than as a proponent or oponent of any philosophy. Sorry not that far into the book but Professor MacWhorter is a well known opponent but as a classical liberal I think he agrees that it is not the place of teachers to indoctrinate students k-12 right or left.

[@dimitrioskantakouzinos8590]

Love to see Glenn and John "I knew he did it" McWhorter.

[@fsilber330]

The question is not _whether_ a given drug policy is racist, but _how_ a given drug policy is racist. According to CRT, any policy with a negative disparate reaction for black people is racist. So, harsher punishment for crack has a negative disparate consequence for black drug pushers. However, lack of harsher punishment for crack cocaine would have a negative disparate consequence for black addicts. Because _any_ policy would result in _some_ black people suffering a negative disparate consequence, _all_ possible policies are racist. That's how we know that the country exhibits systemic / structural racism (racism even without racists). We couldn't _not_ be experiencing systemic / structural racism.

[@ngrovotny]

"According to CRT, any policy with a negative disparate reaction for black people is racist." That's not really so accurate, but we have some extremely high-profile grievance mongers who are claiming that, and they're getting all the media attention in the world to spread their personal misconceptions.

[@m.chumakov1033]

Anyone who hates America must be a CRTist.

[@AlexLekas_TakeOne]

Dismissing it as racism is intellectually lazy. Just picture the different mental images conjured by crackhead vs cokehead. There was a huge disparity regarding the impact on communities as this clip discusses. Crack played hell within black neighborhoods; gangs, shootings, kids caught in the crossfire, etc. Compare to the powder using group - largely professionals with perhaps more money than sense, but no crime wave. Those users were more affluent and their habit was seen more as an addiction issue than a crime problem. Look at people with well-known issues - athletes, actors, rock stars, corporate titans, not exactly dangerous people.

[@m.chumakov1033]

Propaganda works best when the recipients are exactly that, intellectually lazy. All today's "anti-racists" are Marxist propagandists.

[@johnobrien5037]

Unless you're talking about years of habitual use, there's absolutely a distinct difference between a person who has just taken a hit off of a crack pipe and someone who just snorted a line of coke and that's not even getting into how the cheapness of one hit, the quick desire for another and the amount of cash to be made, immediately impacted the violence of the street level drug trade.

[@mouseutopiadystopia24601]

Crack (blk) was not treated the same as cocaine (wht), but it was treated the same as meth (wht).

[@drlove994]

Yes there were disparities. Also there were disparities in the type of crimes. If those crack selling/using neighborhoods didn't have violent crimes, I think the laws would have been the same.

[@KeyserSoze23]

You are not really a doctor. You should change your name and profile photo so as to not mislead people.

[@theblindprogrammer]

I am just curious, are you the guy on the profile picture? or you are a fan of him?

[@theblindprogrammer]

@@KeyserSoze23 I thought referring medical professionals is more recent than Christians tradition referring their religious leaders as doctors? The word Dr began to be associated with the medical community recently.

[@gander4872]

@@theblindprogrammer I think it's a joke, the person you replied to isn't the real Keyser Söze

[@Malignus68]

Just finished John McWhorter's book. I fear John is completely wrong about ending the war on drugs. One has to ask: why do drug dealers do what they do? 1) Easy money. Easier than holding down a legitimate job, at least. 2) Flexible hours. You sell when, where, and to whom you want. 3) Street credibility and peer recognition. 4) Satisfaction of circumventing ("sticking it to") "the man." Where will former drug dealers find these benefits if the drug trade ends? From a regular 9-to-5 job? Not a chance. Ending the underground drug trade will only create a new underground. Will it be car thefts? Muggings? Looting? Human trafficking? Firearms? Whatever it might be, it won't be working part-time at McDonald's, and it definitely won't be community college.

[@Unc0mmonSense]

There is a segment of society that looks for quick and easy money. They will always be scamming and hustling. My issue with drugs is more so the addicts living on the streets committing crimes to feed their habits. The dealers will find other hustles.

[@philsdon8932]

Crack babies were a real thing. I volunteered at a big city children's hospital and saw what became of these children. I was really fond of one such child. To pick him up caused a crisis no matter how carefully he was handled. He could not regulate his distress. It went on and on.

[@archivalfootage1]

It is part of the reason they require the Hep B vaccine for new babies right after they are born, this is a direct consequence of the crack era.

[@9879SigmundS]

The Congressional Black Caucus was way in favor of freaking out an sentencing crack cocaine than powder.

[@michaelkulman7095]

How does a bill become a law?

[@archivalfootage1]

@@michaelkulman7095 the CBC was instrumental in making both their congressional members and President GW Bush and Bill Clinton to do something. Before the CBC raised hell about the pushing tough crack Laws both presidents and members of congress did not care one bit about the violence and drug addiction that was destroying black communities

[@comodave5]

Crack by David Farber. He is a professor of history at Kansas. It's an essential read for this topic.

[@milesmungo]

For me, the fact that so many black people supported stiffer sentences all but kills the racist motivation narrative. It makes sense that if you think harsher punishment will deter crack usage and trade, and thus make your community, family, and self safer, that you'd likely support it.

[@archivalfootage1]

And that is what the new wokeness fails to acknowledge, it was the black community itself that wanted tough laws against the drug abuse and drug dealing that ran rampant throughout the communities.

[@Bye_Hghts]

So you're at nine o clock my right ? Or left hahahhaha

[@tony-lam]

Sounds like a catch-22 situation if I ever heard one

[@deenzmartin6695]

LIFE IS A CATCH 22 SITUATION

[@jmac3327]

It would be interesting to view a podcast regarding literacy rates.

[@theblindprogrammer]

literacy rate is ok

[@mikem668]

Near John's old neighborhood. Black ex-con, shot to death on Germantown Avenue. Older black man sees the shooter out of his window. He's scared to death, but he testifies. Defense has no witnesses, no case. Last day of the trial, they call a kid. From two blocks away on 4:00 am, he claims he sees the victim pull a gun. He starts to say Sssssilver. But stops. Because he doesn't know what color the gun was. But we do and it was black. Mixed jury, by race, age, and gender hangs. Two black women, one old, one a college student. If the cops told the old one the sun was gonna come up, she wouldn't have believed them. The young one would have had some crazy theory about the cop, the sun and racism. The defendant was convicted on two gun charges. Had a roomful of guns, but hid the murder weapon under a trash can lid. I was scared for the witness. But not for me, because I wouldn't go into that neighborhood for anything. But I sure felt sorry for those who had to live there.

[@robwealer5416]

I always thought it was crack vs. crack sentencing and that powder cocaine was not a consideration in disparity.

[@robdielemans9189]

Before listening to the end, I always thought that this disparity is the one closest that one can defend to be of a systemic racist origin.

[@robdielemans9189]

It's still plausible, cause you could make a case that there was a system in place controlling the narrative to exaggerate the dangers of crack as opposed to the dangers of cocaine, or even downplaying it.

[@GilesMcRiker]

How do you account for the far more draconian drug laws (which includes the death penalty) that exist many Asian and middle eastern countries such as China, Singapore , Indonesia and many others?

[@crown_julez9588]

First, love these two great minds speaking 💪🏾

[@carriersailor2474]

One more solid, fact-based discussion from these two fine men, this time chipping away at the massive lie called "mass incarceration." A friend of Glenn, and maybe John as well, a female "Think-Tank academic" named Heather Mac Donald, wrote on this.

[@meattooth1303]

race and local communities wanting safer streets share some blame. we all; black, white, brown & yellow, had a different idea on the morality of drug users 30-40 years ago. i am a ~10 yr recovering addict myself. i hated myself but could not figure out how to stop without help from folks with a more modern approach to addiction than we had back in the day. now there are also the conspiracies of our government putting drugs like crack in inner cities, which were primarily minorities, to help fund CIA initiatives. i do believe there is truth to that and yes, that would have been a very racist move by some folks in our government.

[@theblindprogrammer]

I think people use drugs because they are trying to self-medicate themselves. Using drugs is an escape of something either that thing is pain, poverty, or un-diognosed medical issue.

[@meattooth1303]

@@theblindprogrammer sure, that is definitely a reason. i always had a bit of underlying anxiety i could not shake as far as i can remember. when i took my first drink and later, first smoke, i felt i had found the solution. it worked at first but turned out to be nothing but the devil's work. but the obsession to keep using is overwhelming. our society is coming to the conclusion addiction is a mental illness that often requires professional help vs. throwing people in jail. now people are still being thrown in jail as that turning that huge ship around takes a while. back in the 80s, the slogan was, 'just say no'. i wish it was that easy but it is not.

[@YogGroove]

"I've seen White Guys doing High Fives talking about that [ Crack laws being racist]." ~ LOL, McWhorter is an underrated comedian.

[@moontrack4625]

Oh how do I miss crack

[@NM-qo6cd]

Man those first 30 seconds were awkward 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

[@theblindprogrammer]

I noticed it as well.

[@theblindprogrammer]

0:26 Is little bit awkward.

[@SkeletonModel91]

Yeah. John opened a can of worms, but Glenn was prepared for it. They touched on this subject at length in previous episodes and I think Glenn’s personal experience can offer valuable insight.

[@theblindprogrammer]

​@@SkeletonModel91right.

[@garydavidson6917]

it is time for crime bill 2, now!!!

[@Undertak2000]

I wanna second Thomas St Thomas, meth had the same penalties as crack back in the early 90s and meth was a mostly white drug so that sort of kills the idea they were increasing penalties because of race, it was because of addictiveness and danger to communities I think

[@Undertak2000]

@Caller ID yeah Thomas St Thomas quoted a book about it below

[@archivalfootage1]

Also as John mcworther pointed out, the major supporters for the crack laws it was black people and black leaders themselves. As a someone who remembers this era very clearly, black Americans wanted something to be done about that crack epidemic and the violence that suffocated much of the cities.

[@cameronidk2]

wow .. LA .. 1980, when the all time homicide rate of 34.2 per 100,000 population today 5.5 crazy

[@jpvoodoo5522]

The laws were unfair and absurd, not racist. The problem lies in the purity of the two forms. Powder cocaine is diluted. Crack cocaine is purified. You could buy an 8-ball that has very little cocaine in and still sell it. If you try that with crack, it is no longer crack and people will shoot you because you ripped them off, The only objective way is to require that the actual amount of cocaine present be measured before charging. But that would require police who understand how to multiply fractions Must be too much to ask. No onw apparently consulted a chemist before writing these laws.

[@Gsp_in_NYC]

Update this story with METH these days. .... Coke and meth are both used....not really crack?

[@mikekeller5202]

Lol where do you live? Crack isn’t hard to find

[@Bye_Hghts]

Strike this from the record

[@erilynn370]

Just crack was a lot of money? Didn't you have to buy the cocaine to make crack? Basically the logic of society was yes, cocaine is bad and buying/selling/using is unlawful but lets be more lenient cause they are "quiet"?

[@TheShootist]

one could turn $40 worth of cocaine powder to $100 worth of freebase by just adding more baking soda.

[@ricodelavega4511]

Glenn be the crack-daddy!

[@ngrovotny]

Did neither of you ever just ask one of the humanities people what "structural racism" actually means? I'm especially surprised to hear McWhorter ask those questions given his field of study. The term was coined specifically to describe institutional policies which are not based on race but which have extremely disparate effects on people of different races. Another good example was the GI Bill after WWII or Korea. Black enlistees were technically eligible for college tuition, but because it was pre-civil rights they may literally have not been able to gain admittance to ANY college because they were Black. Taking the individual words literally is not the way to understand the term. There is usually no "ill intent" in examples of "structural racism." There are "race-neutral" policies in place which just affect some races far more seriously than others.

[@damonhage7451]

The issue is that “systemic” or “structural” racism is an invalid concept. It has multiple referents that aren’t commensurable.

[@siriuslyspeaking9720]

@@damonhage7451 That wealth equates to power, and that power sets the rules of society to its advantage, is a systemic and structural disadvantage, to those who have less wealth and power. Those outside of the power structure, can reach that same level, but it is much more difficult to acquire that level of power/wealth, than to maintain it. They have to give an extra effort, commensurate with the forces working against them. Race is a proxy for powerlessness, as Blacks started out with the least power of any group. Two equate all historic slavery with U.S. chattel slavery is non-sense. Do Loury and McWorter ever refute that lie? It demands as much rebuking they give to woke-ism. The system has always been rigged, and race/Black people have always been it's most effective tool. These too don't give nearly enough criticism to the biggest do of wrong.

[@robertbentley3589]

Ignorance. People seem to forget just how ignorant we are. In two hundred years they'll be wondering the same way.

[@damonhage7451]

@@siriuslyspeaking9720 I see you replied directly to me, but I'm not sure what your comment has to do with my comment, so I'm just going to ignore it.

[@ngrovotny]

@@damonhage7451 Of course it would seem that way when you use two entirely different words and pretend they're signifiers of the same concept. They aren't. The concept itself is perfectly valid, but agreeing on terminology is a critical first step in any debate.

[@oraz.]

The laws might be, but It's not true imo that they're the same drug. Same active ingredient, different onset and effect

[@erilynn370]

So now we know the outcome and the disparity still exists (not as harsh)...so now can we call it racism?

[@Bye_Hghts]

Great

[@macibranch6901]

Glenn is woke to cocaine in a way John isn’t. Taking it back!

[@mikekeller5202]

Naw he just likes the flavor.

[@Christopher_Bachm]

What happened to Harlem was racist!

[@Bye_Hghts]

Lmao in french

[@ishaq24722]

Is it structural racism? Well, first of all, research has to be done to determine certain facts. But it's not out of this world to believe tentatively some level of systemic racism is responsible.

[@theblindprogrammer]

The phrase structural racism is one of those amorphous phrases that doesn't have an exact definition; it is like the word Communism, however you define it, its fans always re-define it so long as it fits what they want it to be.

[@deenzmartin6695]

but the question is IS RACISM RACIST?

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

I doubt they want to step on Ibram X. Kendi's toes in trying to answer that question. That's his wheelhouse.

[@deenzmartin6695]

@@Off-Brand_Devin RACISM IS ANTI-RACIST WHICH IS RACIST EXCEPT WHEN IT ISN'T

[@blackonblackthought5905]

the answer always is it isn't really racist, just acceptably racist.. lol

[@Bye_Hghts]

Hey you're in the south right lmao

[@Bye_Hghts]

Are you home

[@Bye_Hghts]

Lmao money money money

[@Bye_Hghts]

Free me nugget : erosion

[@Bye_Hghts]

Lmao roots

[@kobe42085]

How exhausting must it be, to wake up every morning looking to dispute the existence of racism in America.

[@Michael-z3d1p]

I know that guy said about how they threw that shit in our neighborhood then housed black people who are still locked up and out telling the truth ain't hard