Glenn vs. Hitchens: The Reparations Debate

[@Michilar]

I've been binge watching Christopher Hitchen debates for the past week and I must say this was the first debate in which his opponent was not an intellectual lightweight. It's still a joy to listen to Hitchens, but it's a greater joy to see him debate a worthy opponent in Loury.

[@anubis9151]

Though, like I just typed in my own comment, he was hypocritical, he appealed to emotion and ignored several obvious logical falacies on the case that he made, but oh well, in a way, I actually think it's good, gives him more of a human feeling to watch his flaws like this.

[@sortingbadge4123]

What would reparations look like? And who would qualify? Btw me too, I've been watching all the Hitchens debates. One of the great linguistic and philosophical minds of our generation. @@anubis9151

[@jrstreets]

he absolutely was. He spoke in terms of a equal cash payment to everyone. He didn't mention using the money to invest in hospitals, schools, or a grocery store within a 70 mile radius

[@Facts-Over-Feelings]

TYPES OF BLACK PEOPLE AMERICAN RACISTS LOVES TO PROMOTE. - 1) THEY MUST BE LOYAL TO A PARTY. NOT POLICIES. 2) THEY MUST NOT BE FOR THERE PEOPLE. BUT FOR ALL PEOPLE. 3) NOT FOR THE TRADITIONAL FAMILY AND LIFESTYLE. 4) BE WEAK WHEN TALKING ABOUT BLACK ISSUES. OR ANGRY AGAINST IT. 5) A NON (F.B.A). FOUNDATIONAL BLACK AMERICAN WHOSE LINEAGE DESCENDS FROM CHATTEL SLAVERY. 6) A BLACK PERSON THAT DATES OR MARRIES SOMEONE OTHER THEN ANOTHER BLACK PERSON. - NAMES THAT FIT THE TYPES: - BARACK OBAMA , KAMALA (COSPLAY) HARRIS, CANDICE OWENS, BRANDON TATUM, JOY REID, BYRON DONALD'S, AL SHARPTON, JESSE JACKSON, CLEARANCE THOMAS, KETANJI BROWN, CHARLAMAIN THA FRAUD, VAN JONES, CHARLES BARKLEY, MICHAEL JORDAN, JASON WITLOCK, THOMAS SOWELL, LEO TERREL, LARRY ELDERS, JIM CLYBURN, GLENN LOURY. - AND MANY MORE: LIKE MOST CELEBRITIES & ATHLETES THEY PROMOTE. FIT ALL, OR MOST OF THESE TYPES ALSO.. - (More names to be added)

[@donwald3436]

Imagine if the presidential debates were this dignified and well argued.

[@patbrennan6572]

First of all Don Trump has no debating skills at all and that's why he can only attend rallies because rallies are usually gang related. It's a mob mentality and that's the only communication a gangster relates to.

[@TheKentuckyNightmare]

Nobody with as much dignity or restraint as either of these two gentlemen would ever desire to be president.

[@paulmertens8486]

agreed 👍

[@adamgrimsley2900]

My imagination is vivid and broad yet it cannot extend to this depth

[@Thencamethechaos]

They should be.

[@jim3044]

This is an astounding piece of history. This shows how two intellectuals can have opposing views and have an actual debate about a topic, and by having that debate everyone can learn from both parties. And in the end everyone walks away smarter and with a better understanding of the subject. This needs to be shared.

[@swish-r9v]

It allows anyone reacting emotionally to attempt a harnessing of said emotions

[@johnharrison6745]

Hitchens wasn't an intellectual. He was a contrarian arguer. His fans are damaged/cretins.

[@gottliebdee263]

Learning only has value when it changes your actions or beliefs.

[@ericwillison4011]

In the end, we must always remember that Hitchens was a Leftist. And so was the professor against whom he argued. The anti-reparations professor's main argument was that reparations would hold back Leftists in their plan to move the political football more towards the goal line of communism. So while the debate was certainly worth the watching, I hope no one comes away from it with the illusion that they saw all sides of this issue argued.

[@PotionsMaster666]

​@@ericwillison4011uhh ... That didn't even come up even in time in the whole argument... All the "pushing Leftist agenda" and all that... You sure you not projecting from your insecurity to Communism ? Do you think public welfare is communism ?

[@Red__Law]

I'd almost forgotten just how sublime an orator Hitchens was. How we could use him in today's chaos.

[@casteretpollux]

Listened to him last night on Iraq. A liar and a State actor. And deeply racist.

[@MrVvulf]

Douglas Murray. He's as close as you can have currently (and was a personal friend of Hitchens). He's slightly less confrontational and dramatic, more tactful, with similar eloquence and incisiveness as Hitchens.

[@mypalfootfoot9591]

@@MrVvulf Except Hitch was a Democratic Socialist and Murray is a conservative.

[@oliver5479]

It ends up sounding like sophistry most of the time. He has a talent for walking in circles around the point and using flowery language or obscure literary references to make it convincing. There's a reason he was far more popular in America than England and that's because we see people like Hitchens all the time.

[@carlfrye1566]

Much of his lifes work revolved around telling people to ignore religion and listen to him instead. He sought and received citizenship in the Christian based USA, why is that....to make an easy living?

[@jmaitland5709]

I feel incredibly lucky to have stumbled across such a fascinating debate by chance, I only wish it were longer. I feel like an open discussion section between Hitch and Loury would've been absolutely captivating to listen to.

[@SpenerJLB]

Very true. Would love to see how Hitch would rebut Loury’s claims

[@joeturkot4669]

Thanks for posting this Glenn! Didn't know you and Hitch debated!

[@SuperGamli]

Fantastic debate. People speaking from their conviction, not some "group line" and groupthink.

[@jlongobardy1612]

With all due respect (to the dearly departed), I don't know that that was much of a debate. No more than it is a fight when my sixyear-old and I spar w/ a pair of Everlast heavyweight gloves each. By all measures standard and intangible did Loury prevail, and there's not a definition of trounce that he failed to satisfy in that asswhoopin. Figuratively speaking, of course. And--of course--with all due respect.

[@AMikeStein]

I had always thought hitch, if he was still alive, should talk/debate/ discuss issues with people like Glenn Loury or John Mcwhorter. Now I can say that it did happen and I am wiser because of this video.

[@pastorofmuppets8834]

@@jlongobardy1612 yes I agree. Hitchens relied too much on trying to convince people he won a similar debate in the past, and spent way too much time flattering the audience. Very little actual argument

[@harvey9290]

@@pastorofmuppets8834 Yeah, he was more of a speaker than a debater.

[@gnlout7403]

How have I never seen this? Two intellectual giants who say what they think, political correctness and feelings be damned. Much respect.

[@orb8540]

What the hell youtube, where was this video hidden all this time ? What is the point of the crazy invasive algorythm if you cant even figure out that Glenn loury and Hitchens debate would interest me for 21 years ????

[@Madonnalitta1]

It was a different time. Mr Hitchens is sorely missed.

[@JasonWrightArt]

Totally! I don’t know how I missed this either. Two people I profoundly respect.

[@seandangercampbell]

Yeah this is amazing. A real gem.

[@KentBuchla]

Because it was just uploaded Actually, I’d seen this years ago and it has been around b

[@whatwouldjohngaltdo1409]

Wow what a treat! I’m a massive fan of both these men, but had never heard of this debate!

[@planeswinggolf]

I’m a devotee of Hitchens but I would have to say I feel that he was showboating here rather than addressing the deeper issue and consequences that Glenn so succinctly articulated.

[@sheepthehack]

I too think he was full of shit on this occasion.. considering not ONCE did he mention the fact that there are AFRICAN NATIONS that are JUST as culpable and owe just as much as any white person, not that in my opinion any white person alive today owes any black person for crimes of the past.. this is such an absurd notion it offends anyone with a brain! He also didnt go into the notion of "WHERE DOES IT STOP???" Why are we isolating ONE VERY TINY moment in history and selecting those people for SPECIAL TREATMENT that has never been considered for ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WOLRD!!!!! Who hasnt been fucking slaves at one point of another.. !! His argument about museums KEEPING artifacts just because the people they belonged to are no longer around is absolute nonsense.. in fact, it speaks to the argument that if the person to BLAME for these atrocities are no longer AROUND then in his thinking.. there is no claim to be had!!! And as the last person to benefit from slavery died about 400 years ago.. again.. he speaks against his own argument!

[@d.jparer5184]

Hitchens is all style no substance, look up his brother if you want substance.

[@ericwillison4011]

Hitchens' argument was more about how he got to his results than the result he urged. He said that himself as he started out his argument. His warning about arguing with people who tried to switch the subjects provided me with the valuable accretion of knowledge even though I did not agree with his results in favor of reparations.

[@autumnberend828]

​@@d.jparer5184That's highly debatable. Peter has lots of logical issues.

[@d.jparer5184]

@@autumnberend828 what do you mean logical issues?

[@rorychivers8769]

I wish regular life was as thoughtful and respectful as this debate. It's kind of heart warming that Hitchens acknowledged, agreed with and respected the main points Loury made, even as he was supposed to challenge them. Remember what that felt like?

[@robertpotter3578]

Like many people, I imagine, this is a surprising KZbin discovery. I’m a fan of both of these men, and I had no idea that they ever knew each other much less had such an excellent debate together. Thank you for sharing.

[@RootinRichy]

It's hard to listen to this without feeling sad. The ideal of open debate is in danger today. Seeing such a serious example of how debating can be done leaves me wanting.

[@theinnerlight8016]

Agreed. That culture of honest debate needs to get a comeback. No crazy shouts interrupting from the audience, people act mature, listen and (hopefully) think about what they hear. I feel at home in such an environment. We can agree or disagree on various topics. If we do it in a civilized way, not condemning each others whole character for holding different views, we can still see the good in one another and live peacefully, more happily together. And maybe in the long run change each other's minds, or, depending on the evidence, change our own. 🖖

[@mamadogdude788]

Ij J Yea jest Ompm O No Mmpmpmnpnpnpnnppnnnj lol.

[@ata5855]

in danger? It's dead.

[@Will_Moffett]

The "open honest debate" is both being realized as a flawed concept in the minds of many people, justifiably so, while at the same time corporations are working with the state to control public thought, especially on political issues, in order to maintain power. So it's being attacked on 2 fronts, one of them kinda legit. The problem is with conservatism and it's attempts to represent itself as in line with the values which both conservatives and progressives hold up as unassailable. Conservatives are simply lying about holding those values, and now that is seen. For example, both conservatives and progressives say they want equal opportunity for people of different races. Then we "debate" whether or not race should be a factor in school admissions. The conservatives make terrible arguments here, and the arguments are terrible because they aren't being honest about their values. Their true aims are maintaining an unfair advantage for their ethnic group, and when they try to contort their arguments to comport with equal racial opportunity, the arguments are terrible/stupid. A real "open debate" of good faith would be conservatives arguing White supremacy and progressives arguing against racial supremacy. But white supremacy is (as it should be) a non-starter. People have just decided they don't want to endlessly repeat arguments with people who are lying about their positions and conservatives simply lie about their true positions.

[@Theactivepsychos]

Plenty of good debates happening in the world.

[@manwithoutacountry]

This is fascinating to watch in 2022 because regardless of the merits of the debate at the time, Glenn Lowry's closing remarks seem incredibly prescient for the conversation about race in America going on today and I'd believe hitchens would have had to concede that point if he was still here.

[@DewgNews]

He’d have a more brilliant addendum to that notion I’m sure

[@cyrusaalborg]

Finding old Hitchens debates are like finding gold , why hidden for so long ,21 years ?

[@Dimera09]

I don't know how I've never seen this video, especially after years of scouring the internet for everything Hitchens. I hadn't encountered Mr Loury or his work before but was completely blown away by his opening statement (I'm writing this having only seen this part so far). Extremely well thought out and articulated. Exactly what I've always thought, to "reimburse" the black population with a monetary amount is an insult to the dignity of those enslaved in the past. And indeed, once paid then "oh we've already sorted that issue out, no more to do here" could honestly be claimed. I look forward to learning more from you Mr Loury, thank you.

[@kstar1489]

How would paying back what was taken be disrespectful? Just because we can’t fix all of it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix some of it. It would help with the massive amounts of inequality between black and white being in America as a DIRECT RESULT of slavery and further discriminatory laws. The idea of being against ANY kind of reparations is baffling to me.

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

Glenn has been in the trenches for a long long time. It's hard for younger people to really grasp the longevity of his active engagement in the American political conversation.

[@npickard4218]

Well-said !!

[@yourlogicalnightmare1014]

And look how little impact it has had. A Kardashian tweet gets a million times more eyeballs than anything these guys have to say. The irrelevant and trivial will likely take precedence for 100s of years to come. Politicians largely win not by ideas or arguments but by fraudulent schemes, lies, and trickery that rely on voter ignorance and hyper-partisanship. One day, maybe mind-reading AI can be utilized to reveal the devilish thoughts in the minds of candidates, resulting in the most evil of narcissists to think twice before presenting themselves as a candidate.

[@valipunctro]

The sad fact is that the mainstream hushed him aside...he didn't deserve that and we are worse off for that, we don't deserve him.😭

[@frankdracman4084]

@deathbycognitivedissonance5036 cool screen name and commentary

[@baigish100]

Two of my favorite people Glenn and Hitch. I had no idea this discussion ever occurred. Thank you for posting!

[@johnharrison6745]

Hitch was a waste-of-resources; his fans are feebs. Thank you.

[@SW-hx4rl]

Finally! Been wanting to find this again for years. Thank you Glenn.

[@te5758]

Glenn, your thoughts RE how to frame this issue (beginning at 28:11) are heroic. You sir are the embodiment of patriotism, writ as a moral conscience within the great ideals of a nation. Thank you for this, and for so many other contributions.

[@AdrianR0713]

I though I had watched every Hitchens’ debate in KZbin. Thanks for this ‘fresh’ material. Also surprised of Hitchen’s view on this topic and fascinating arguments from Glenn. Enjoy the debate.

[@jkonrad]

I miss Hitch. I can only imagine the choice words he would have for the present societal failings. Thank God we still have Glenn around.

[@NoahBodze]

I had Hitchens as a professor in college, and spoke with him sporadically afterwards. I respect his intellect, but his Trotskyism and “sense of Justice” would also put him on some of the wrong rails against American self preservation in its own founding image. He’d be pro-war with Ukraine, for example, and he fundamentally did not understand economics, so profligate spending would not have mattered to him.

[@jkonrad]

@@NoahBodze Agreed. I was thinking more along the lines of the victimhood, identity politics “woke” cult.

[@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly]

@@NoahBodze did not understand? Or said something you didn’t truly understand.

[@NoahBodze]

@@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly I spoke clearly, objectively stupid person. You did not.

[@breno2024]

that is all he would have, choice words. I have listened to him parade his flowery rhetoric for some time. you know what I have yet to hear, an actual, actionable solution.

[@daveg5857]

I could listen to either of these men speak... endlessly.

[@Mr._Moderate]

If you want windbag Loury you can keep him 👍

[@DreadfulNW]

25:58 what a prescient statement by Dr. Loury. I guess you called it, sir. Also, I had no idea he and Christopher Hitchens ever crossed paths on the debate stage. Having followed Dr. Loury for the past few years now, I'm not surprised at all by his sharp intellect on display here, but man it is such a pleasure to witness against such a behemoth in Hitchens. Two men on different sides of the debate stage on this day, but forever brothers in arms in the war of ideas.

[@mjm5081]

"...The us/them dichotomy that I want to avoid is what we're heading for!..." Unfortunately, Professor Loury nailed it.

[@Ohdeerhere]

this is great. i came here for hitchens but glenn was incredibly thoughtful and well argued and well spoken as well.

[@JeffintheD]

I feel fortunate for having found this video. What a treat to watch two intellectuals I've admired for years enrich the discourse around a subject that so frequently ends in frivolous posturing and/or conversation-ending accusations against the other speaker.

[@johnharrison6745]

Hitch wasn't an intellectual; he was a contrarian arguer.

[@TheEmulsufiedEye]

@@johnharrison6745sounds like you’ve read him extensively

[@johnharrison6745]

@@TheEmulsufiedEye 'Hitch' was just a drunken, drug-addled, food-addicted, nicotine-saturated, sexually-repressed, misogynistic, suicidal hack-of-a-journalist with essentially zero-credentials in 99% of the fields that he held-forth and pontificated about. All he had were an acid-tongue and a British hypno-voice. His fan-base are easily-impressed pseudo-intellectuals with Dunning-Kruger. [don't get me wrong; he was more-or-less right about a number of things; but, when you get-down-to-brass-tacks, he was unqualified, and, his arguments were VERY simplistic, and, relied-upon a great deal of credulity and sentiment/emotion from his audience/opponents]

[@markcorless3552]

I've never been more excited for a KZbin debate, to be honest. Thank you, Glenn!

[@mathieuguillet4036]

Thank you for re-uploading this, Professor!

[@lenloving]

Love Hitch. Love Loury. This is one of the few debates where Hitch's punches did not land. His thought experiment was itself a Red Herring. Dr. Loury came into this debate on solid ground, and he wrapped up his argument on solid ground. Hitch, for all of his eloquence -and I could listen to his audiobooks non-stop, has never convinced me of his position on reparations. I respect the principle he stands on to make that case, but I would argue that Hitch's liberal principles and penchant for facts are more aligned with Dr. Loury's position on reparations than his own. Great debate, thank you for sharing!

[@buckchile614]

Three problems: 1) Lowery has drifted more right than " progressive" since this debate. 2) The right seems incapable of extrapolating other experiences or feelings beyond their own. Mr. Loury seems to be more interested in not upsetting the applecart as well as proving that he is every bit as actualized as any other high achieving American. Kudos to you, sir! But don't let your own ego, get in the way of getting some good, instead of what's best... 3) Keeping the topic at strictly monetary limits what's possible. It is written.

[@MattSingh1]

*Have to entirely disagree with this analysis: Hitchens thought experiment was so air-tight to the point that it pre-emptively shot down most of Loury's points, or anyone else's objections. If Hitchens' argument cannot convince you of the just nature of reparations, perhaps there's an undistributed middle going on with you(?). Hitchens essentially put down (with ease) every objection to reparations, including Loury's impotent objections. I simply cannot see how anyone can object to reparations for African-Americans. If not reparations in this instance, than no reparations for anyone in any circumstance.*

[@buckchile614]

@@MattSingh1 I agree. I believe that Hitch is operating on an entirely higher plane than Mr. Loury. It's also somewhat ironic that Loury seems to empathize more with his former tormentors(if he'd been born 160 years ago, he'd been born in servitude) than his fellow African-Americans. It's as if he forgot where he came from

[@sybo59]

@@MattSingh1 Hitch was dead wrong. You cannot fix one injustice by creating a new injustice. Those responsible for slavery are not here - we cannot take money from them to offer as reparations. We can only forcibly take money from morally innocent people. This is unjustifiable, and requires the very collectivist thinking that made slavery conceivable in the first place.

[@DewgNews]

Hitch was anything but a liberal. By definition almost every so called libertarian I’ve ever talked to is more liberal. Hitch was a socialist and claimed to be so to the very end. How we use and define words in this country is almost completely backwards it’s sad to me to hear someone claiming to be a fan not even know his most basic position from the left.

[@eriksnijders4370]

Very interesting! You always learn the most from listening to these well-structured debates. It's interesting that Hitchens accuses Glenn of considering the best the enemy of the good, but Glenn argues the good is the enemy of the best. A very important difference, and beautifully argued by Glenn! I never imagined I would watch a thirty minute Hitchen's debate, recommended to me after watching a fair amount already, and end up disagreeing with Hitchens.

[@cryptocaesar8972]

I’m a fan of hitchens but I thought Glenn handled him here, it seems hitch was zoomed in looking at whether something should be done, if yes then yes to reparations, Glenn was looking at the politics of uniting the country and actually getting stuff done that would actually help make the country better, not just looking at some proposal in a vacuum not acknowledging the repercussions.

[@k.k.9011]

You make no point at all! 🤔

[@tubbytuba21]

I have been a loyal fan of Hitchens for many years, and also I was surprised to find this gem after all these years… Where was it before? In my opinion Hitchens had nothing to say here. Loury pretty much carried this from beginning to end… I don’t know why Hitch even bothered to put his two cents in!

[@moonlightray8493]

I, too, am a long-time fan of the Hitch, but nonetheless I found myself siding with Loury on this particular topic. As a matter of fact, I was somewhat surprised to find Hitchens on the "pro" side here, given how often and vehemently he tends to assert the value of human solidarity - which was the very crux of Loury's robust and articulate argument.

[@marieroth3940]

@@cryptocaesar8972 I thought Hitchens had him right from the beginning when he politely told his audience that how you think is important, introducing the irrelevant, the non sequitur, the generalisation and feelings into an argument, it is a dead give away. To me that doesn't mean appealing to the charity of people is wrong, it is only wrong when you try to place an obligation on some; the majority of whom had nothing to do with slavery; to make eternal reparations for it and just piling the blame of disparate consequences of poverty and poor behaviour; which occur in all societies, onto slavery. Also Glen appealing to common humanity to right the wrongs of society while obliquely pointing out who in society he feels has been wronged, is saying nothing to mend the situation or anything calculated to unite humanity in mutual upliftment.

[@scottiebaldwin]

As much as I love Hitchens, and I do so love Hitchens, I’m going with Loury for the win on this one.

[@southwestkinema9149]

Hardly surprised. It’s about black people getting something that you are not going to get or are entitled to. Triggers people. Usually racists. But I don’t know you.

[@gusfring6887]

Hitchens has a lot of bad takes, for example he said Stalin was supported by the Catholic Church

[@robertjordansmith]

What a wonderful video from the past. Hitch and Glenn. Two giants having an honest debate.

[@OmarAbdulMalikDHEdMPASPACPAPro]

Wow! I young Glenn and Hitchens going at it! This is a hudden KZbin gem!😃 Thanks for sharing this with us.

[@llIIIIlllIIIllI]

i can't believe this exists. two titans who i've always held in high regard. i haven't even watched it yet but i'm excited to see these two engage.

[@paulbarker5295]

2001, and yet the debate still goes on... this needs to be shown in Schools!

[@sarahg2653]

oh wow. I cannot wait for the chance to listen to this! Glenn and Hitchens? we are blessed!

[@horus909]

I must say, it probably felt weird arguing about this topic two months after 9/11 with all the world-changing effects that were going on around you at the same time, remaking the world as you watched. Twenty years later the same arguments on reparations hold true in a massively different world.

[@rhettstraube2559]

Well said.

[@stephencoveney4269]

..i might be reading it wrong but is the date on the screen 11/7/01....USA use the day/mn/yr format. so was a few months before 9/11, not after ??

[@horus909]

@@stephencoveney4269 no, the USA uses month/day/year format almost exclusively

[@ianmarshall9144]

Well we could chase the money back , but where do you think the buck stops ? Who rounded up the slaves ? who sold them ? who bought them ? and who used them ? The world slave trade had lots of participants . Africans had slaves , Arabs had slaves and European and Americans had slaves and lets not forget that the British spent a fortune fighting to stop world slavery , so who owes what to whom ?

[@chicagoliightsx]

@@horus909 "The _world_ slave trade" differs *greatly* from American CHATTEL slavery. The most brutal form. Don't be so disingenuous--or perhaps you are ignorant to the atrocities committed...? It was essentially an American holocaust. Slave _owners_ were paid royally! They received land promised to freed men and women. There's a book called "The Delectable Negro" by Vincent Woodard you ought to check out. There are even recipes in there...😐 Like, let's be really honest here. 😒 "Medical Apartheid" is also a good one. Enjoy! /s

[@JamesWitte]

Great hearing your Lex interview. This was also a great video. You're a great mind man!

[@darylloth3237]

I have never heard Hitchens praise an opponent for having a superb opening argument. I feel that even he was thinking to himself that he was not prepared for it. I think that given time you would have even convinced him to change sides.

[@humanOctupus]

Glenn changed my perspective on the reparations argument.

[@EricLehner]

Hello Professor Loury - It has been a pleasure to discover your immense common sense, delivered with effortless communication and finesse. Thank you for having been a force for good for so many years.

[@JohnnyAquaholic]

He still is... In fact, he has a KZbin channel...

[@Dentsun4228]

i take you appreciate the fact that the black guy is against reparations...so, its helpful for you.

[@JohnnyAquaholic]

@Dentsun4228 Can you tell me which family(s) kept your family enslaved, which African tribe sold your family into slavery, and which member(s) of your family were enslaved? If not, then reparations aren't a discussion. My family and most families in America were not slave owners, and those reparations would come from taxpayers today, whose families were not slave owners 160 years ago.

[@Dentsun4228]

@@JohnnyAquaholic it was the United States government that allowed by law the trade in slavery. This includes denying slaves rights to the fruit of their own labor. Were YOUR forefathers denied compensation for their labor? My guess is they got paid, so reparations is not an issue for you personally. Therefore it is the United States government that owes reparations for hundreds of years of forced free labor that was extracted from blacks. I'm sure you are against handouts so you should be against the United states benefitting from the free labor of millions of people, all of which amounts to a giant handout

[@JohnnyAquaholic]

@Dentsun4228 Again, I ask which family(s) kept your relatives enslaved, which African tribe(s) enslaved your relatives, and which members of your family were enslaved? It is likely that my ancestors were enslaved given the history of where they come from. However, I'm not going to dig into the past to justify my shortcomings, nor my relative's currently. You don't get to scream reparations just because you're black in America. For all you know, your ancestors could've been slavers in America or part of the tribes enslaving their neighbors. But of course, it's more convenient to just point the finger without knowing a damn thing about your actual history.

[@Grand_Admiral_Thrawn23]

Gone are the times when people could debate contentious issues eloquently and respectfully such as in this debate. Modern society would do well to learn from debaters like these.

[@seandangercampbell]

I had not learnt of the existence of Glenn Loury until two years ago when I needed to find non-absurd explanations for events in 2020. Glenn is a blessing for western civilisation, he’s an intellectual titan, and it’s a pleasure to witness this historic testament to that fact.

[@efrainchaidez2722]

P

[@npickard4218]

well said !!

[@mackhomie6]

feel free to share

[@stay-rootednlove2794]

Intelligent ....he [Glenn] may BE...But, so far Only a few minutes in...He's using Alot of dismissiveness & he's SOOO off on this topic; smh He's touching upon irrelevant topics & EXTREMELY weak talking points 🎯💯...in relation to reparations & It's ALMOST unbearable to sit thru🙄 Very sad...

[@mackhomie6]

@@stay-rootednlove2794 that's like, your opinion, man.

[@debbiebrown381]

I miss Christopher Hitchens! I so wish he were here to share his thoughts to what is happening to this country currently.

[@adamrules01]

His one downside was his previously held Marxist view and never discarding the filter on his worldview.

[@debbiebrown381]

@@adamrules01 because of that, what's happening to this country right now makes we wonder even more about what he would say.

[@casteretpollux]

I just watched him and Parenti debate Iraq. Hitches lied over and over again. It is now my belief he was a State agent.

[@debbiebrown381]

@@casteretpollux a secret agent...naw.

[@casteretpollux]

@@debbiebrown381 No secret now is it?

[@danielj.rhoads1622]

One of the best things going on right now is how some of the best public intellectuals are having conversations all over KZbin. Look, Glenn Loury is talking to Sam Harris. Eric Weinstein with Peter Thiel, cool! Chris Hedges rapping with Matt Taibbi. This is next level- bringing one of my all-time favorites, Christopher Hitchens, back to life and on stage with Prof. Loury.

[@ActionAlligator]

Chris Hedges is clearly very intelligent, most definitely more intelligent than myself, but I don't trust his analysis at all... he's argued too much bs for my taste.

[@twntwrs]

@@ActionAlligator "Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Is the Hitchensian dictum that applies here.

[@ActionAlligator]

@@twntwrs ?

[@twntwrs]

@@ActionAlligator "...he's argued too much BS..." you claim yet fail to provide a single example. Therefore your assertion can be dismissed without any further consideration since there is nothing to consider.

[@ActionAlligator]

@@twntwrs ok? who fucking cares, I was dropping my opinion off on youtube like everyone else... I'm not trying to prove a case jesus lmao. if you're really curious, look up his dumbass opinions on atheists and atheism, that's honestly the only one I even remember, but there were definitely more. or don't.

[@agitatedzone]

so much respect for Glenn Loury, only one who made sense in this argument

[@_TheOleRazzleDazzle_]

Masterfully debated and orated. I find myself on the fence because I agree with both arguments. Dr. Loury is correct in saying that once reparations are paid, so has the debt and the books can be closed on this. It’s a scapegoat that doesn’t right the wrong. Reparations do not pay the debt, justice does. Yet I also agree with Mr. Hitchens in that reparations can help right the wrongs, while I would argue, only in part.

[@horaciogandini4249]

This is a debate. This is what universities and societies in general should always embrace and defend. The possibility of human beings disagreeing on a subject with well thought out arguments delivered without histrionics, sound effects and low blows. We are sadly seeing how the agora for enlightenment and the development of critical thinking, is being turned into the obscure corners of "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings". The individual must shape and define his ideology, and not vice versa. Thank you for posting this. It was worth it.

[@brandonnotsowise2640]

Want to know what universities need to defend, that I assure you is in a myriad of their so called mottos? TRUTH. Yes truth is not always objective but it is imperative that we STRIVE TO ATTAIN IT. There have been FAR too many concessions made in the rejection of truth to maintain a “safe space”. This is what happens when you get intellectually dishonest people who are more obsessed with power than they are with the pursuit of knowledge.

[@mosquerajoseph7305]

University debates still go like this despite what the media will tell you. as someone who’s been to several

[@BradfordHills]

Glenn at his brilliant best.

[@divineinyang5384]

The argument by Glenn, so wise and sophisticated.

[@florianmarinescu2901]

Well put mister Loury, I was one persuaded by mister Hitchens about 10 years ago in this subject area. But now rehashing how things evolved. I must concede the point to you mr. Glen Loury. I applaud your skills in rhetoric and as an orator in debating with mr. Hitchens.

[@Kurticus_Jaegerman_Swoodlebong]

Thank you for sharing this video. More people need to see it. My love of Christopher Hitchens led me to you, and you gave me a new perspective. I am a white man, and I know I have privilege. I honestly agree with both and have a hard time picking a side. I feel like the true reparations would come in the form of ending redlining communities and pouring money into building a good infrastructure, with good education, jobs, and everything else that is owed. We cannot fix the issue by paying individuals when the debt is owed to an entire culture. I think the change comes when we rewrite our code of justice with true equality and fairness in mind, and tell the true story of our country! I am a veteran, and it wasn’t until I got out that I realized I was not taught the truth. That really hurts to fight for a country that lied to me about so many wrongs and crimes that just went ignored and covered up. I want to know our history. We need to know the names of Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph. We need to know the fight and the struggle, and we need to stop trying to pay off individuals when we can rebuild the flawed infrastructure! Rebuild the broken foundation with true history taught so we can learn from the past, and not recreate it.

[@zeno2501]

Incredible performance from both participants. Thanks, Glenn.

[@rgonzalez100]

Great debate. Can’t remember ever seeing hitch get dragged like this. Nice job Glenn. You’re an important voice in the fight for reason. Thanks.

[@ysf-psfx]

I think he is playing Devil's Advocate here.

[@jonerickson2358]

Thank you for clearing this up for me. The question is not if we should have reparations, but what are we really trying to accomplish?? We do not need one more excuse to pretend the question is solved, and neither does our (joint) cultures!!

[@adamgrimsley2900]

Wow, the two speakers are superb. Hugely impressed with all the arguments. They are intelligent, understandable and deal in realpolitik.

[@saxb100]

Two of the most insightful perspectives I have ever heard

[@amon-crow4414]

I can’t believe I’m saying this but I think you lost this one Hitch. Never the less R.I.P you are sorely missed

[@joemartino6976]

"Anyone can have thoughts, it's how you think." I miss you Mr. Hitchens.

[@johnharrison6745]

Stupid statement from a stupid person.

[@orbyztam]

Big fan, Glenn! Never knew you and Hitch shared the stage, I respect you both a lot.

[@baumulrich]

wow. just wow! what a debate, and how well led and presented!

[@brucemcgraw2265]

I DID NOT know these two have debated and ive seen all of hitchens debates more than once........soo looking forward to this

[@bernardqblack]

People love to act as if their own group have never done the exact same thing they accuse others of.... How far back do these goofs think everyone needs to rectify every injustice of history

[@py_a_thon]

Thank you for the informal level of a harvard quality education in baseform economics, political science and sociology. And I truly mean that. Your content has elevated who I am as a human being and you are phenomenally gifted as a speaker and a teacher. Thank you.

[@fattyboombatty2000]

Once again, Glenn shows his profound eloquence. It’s impressive to come out on top when stepping in the ring with a giant like Hitchens.

[@juttybear7024]

Come out on top? His argument was weak. He basically said blacks should not get reparations because it isn’t popular with white people and might cause divisiveness. I’m sure you’ll concede that slavery and Jim Crowe was unpopular with black citizens. No one cared. He also said reparations would be washing the stain of black subjugation clean with nothing more than checks or cash payments. It’s just foolishness. Reparations could address a lot of the issues Glenn brings up. They don’t have to be only monetary payments. He basically says nothing can be good enough to wash the slate clean, therefore, nothing should be done at all. It’s just a crap argument. As Hitchens says during his rebuttal. We have a tendency to make good the enemy of great. Let’s keep in mind, slavery is only the tip of the iceberg. There is another 100 years of Jim Crowe and mistreatment up until the 1960’s. Blacks fought in every war ever on American soil. They were not granted access to the government handout white citizens we afforded. Check out the GI Bill and Homestead Act. Glenn was less than convincing in my opinion. Hitchens wasn’t great in his rebuttal but I tend to agree with his position more on this topic. These are the opinions of a very Conservative black man btw.

[@jamespanizza3708]

@@juttybear7024 Todd Snyder here. My other account is not letting me comment for some reason. Anyway, I do think Glenn had the better insights. I think it boils down to our personal opinions in the end though. I think reparations are a bad idea for many reasons, but the main one is that reparations will not do anything to help race relations. They will likely worsen them in a big way. All taxpayers will pay for this whether they have ancestors who participated in slavery or not. Our biggest population boom happened after the civil war and those people have no ties to that past injustice. Those people will likely blame someone for the trillions added to our national debt and it won’t just be the politicians. Also, how much help will it do to the black community? Unless we pay them enough to make them independently wealthy(which is impossible), the money will likely have no lasting impact. Personally, if we pay this out, I never want to hear anything about systemic racism, affirmative action, housing projects, or food stamps ever again. Unless it’s someone telling me they’ve been abolished forever. We both know that won’t happen. In fact, it won’t change a single thing on those subjects. I don’t disagree that the history is full of bad treatment of black Americans, but paying more money is a frivolous waste. I say “more” because it’s also arguable that a lot of the reparations have been paid through all the social programs I mentioned earlier. We would be saddling our children and grandchildren with a massive debt, even though their generation will be even further removed from those sins than we are right now. And we already have no living victims or perpetrators to repay or punish.

[@jamespanizza3708]

@Nahte Ttocs I’m not arguing that black people have been mistreated in the past. That is clear to me, you, and anybody who knows anything about history. The problem is paying for ancestors misdeeds which we never got a choice in. We can’t help what was done. We can only acknowledge it was wrong, and move on. Beating ourselves over the head with it repeatedly, is obviously causing negative consequences. As it sits, all rights are guaranteed to all, and anyone with the talent and drive can make the life for themselves that they deserve. They may have an encounter with racism that holds them back. I wish we could eradicate racism for good, but I’m afraid there will always be a$$holes out there. For the most part, Americans today go out of their way to provide opportunities for underserved groups, especially when the said group member is respectful and has a great attitude. I’ve heard the grievance, but I haven’t heard a plan for this reparation distribution. Who gets the benefit, who pays, and how much? This is so much more complicated than you or I could imagine. We have such a melting pot in this country and nearly every ethnic group could claim some grievance in the past that needs compensation. There are also just as many that can claim no ancestral sin against them.The world has just recently become tolerant of other races( America more than anywhere else). The list of atrocities stretches across the globe and back to the beginning of mankind. We have managed to set the course right, which is the exception in societies. We can’t keep ripping the bandages off this wound and demanding redressing. The main point here is we have done what is acceptable to move on and get along with each other. It is the race hustlers that are keeping racism on life support for political reasons, that are the real problem. These people can’t let it die because without it, they think they won’t be needed anymore. I have way more to say but I’ve rambled long enough

[@jamespanizza3708]

@Nahte Ttocs I know that black people have been mistreated in the country. A lot of people have been mistreated over the millennia. What we don’t do is dwell on it forever, asking for recompense from injustice that we didn’t live through. We have just recently realized that what was done was wrong. We can’t go back and try to retroactively fix mistakes that can’t be fixed. That benefits no one. It’s an utter waste to do so. It won’t change anything that has happened. People will still feel how they feel, and no one will suddenly be grateful after the government has tried paying them off. Why would that be the end of it? No amount will be deemed sufficient by everyone. We will be hearing this argument until the end of time no matter how much is paid, because if we cave to the first unreasonable demand, there is no reason to stop making unreasonable demands. It will never end. There are black people who don’t want reparations, as you mentioned. It’s likely that those people realize that anyone who has the drive for success can grab it, since they are living proof. They don’t want to pay off people with the same opportunity that they had, just because those people weren’t able to utilize it. The government’s job is not to right all wrongs of the past, nor is it it’s job to take from one group of people and give to another. Government is not god. Although, some in government would like you to believe so. They would be more than happy to keep paying the public enough to live off of just to keep those who benefit from this subsidization voting for them. That is their only goal. They don’t care if people are happy. They don’t care about quality of life. They want power and paying people is how they get it. They also happen to be the ones telling black people that they can’t get ahead because of systemic racism and whatever else. They don’t want them to get ahead, so making it seem impossible accomplishes that. That then solidifies those people’s dependence on the government which starts the cycle over again. We won’t agree on this subject. We have both hardened our positions on the matter and can’t be shaken from them. It’s been nice having the opportunity to articulate them though!

[@jamespanizza3708]

@Nahte Ttocs You think I have cognitive dissonance due to my bias. I think the same about you. I simply don’t believe the common narratives of systemic racism you do. Mass incarceration is a great thing in my opinion. It lead to decades of the lowest crime we have had this century. If more black people were locked up, that’s because they most likely committed the crime. Sorry, but that’s just the truth. Disparities do not prove discrimination. The thing that is most detrimental to black society(IMO, is the government stepping in and replacing the father in the home. Women were given incentive not to have a man in the house. They were given a certain amount of money and it was reduced if there was another earner in the house. Naturally that will affect the community. In the 1950’s single parent black families were 25% of the total black families. At that time, black people were a smaller percentage of the impoverished than today, and trending upward. After “the great society” and the “war on poverty” , 75% of black households are single parent. Poverty in black communities is worse than ever before. To truly rise to their potential, we need more fathers in the home, and less government in the home.

[@charlesumesi]

Wow, a true masterclass on how to conduct such debates.

[@godisbollocks]

I'm a big fan of Loury but I don't think he took down Hitchens here. He didn't make it clear how Hitchens' England vs Greece analogy failed.

[@bb4726-h5e]

Prof. Loury, you were just as much an inspiration then as you are now.

[@aaronkalahar-_-_-]

Excellent debate. Love you both!

[@brianreid5891]

Love this. Respect to both sides, but Glenn Loury crushed this debate hands down. His argument just hits as nothing but authentic and TRUE! Don’t know anything about Glenn, but this popped up on my feed, and id like to see more.

[@thisisbrotherhood769]

it's not a debate. A debate has someone against a notion. They are both advocating for the same thing. I think in 2023, Hitchens would find himself against the woke

[@asielcs]

Perhaps the most impressive is the debate and how arguments are constructed and presented here.

[@dawnvickerstaff]

This is the most cogent debate about reparations I have ever heard. My mind is almost changed, except that I do not think that paying reparations would end the obligation of decent human beings to look around themselves and say "And now what else needs to be addressed?" We won't be done if we pay reparations. We'll only just have begun.

[@cagneybillingsley2165]

hitchens was out of his element here. rare to see

[@domchadwick7170]

The point is that reparations are incompatible with the continued requirement for justice, as they imply a repayment of the debt and encourage a continuation of racial social apartheid. This is Glenn's point and the reason he wins the debate.

[@dawnvickerstaff]

@@domchadwick7170 You are right up to a point but it is an 'implication' not a certainty, certainly not when there are ongoing injustices. Repayment for one does not imply repayment for all.

[@cockoffgewgle4993]

@@dawnvickerstaff There are no "ongoing injustices". The solution to past discrimination isn't present day discrimination, it's equality. Also, black people in America have benefited from slavery just as much as white people have. There's a paradox at play with regard to the bizarre concept of sharing your ancestors' experiences-- people very often benefit from their ancestors having suffered. Whatever shit slavery built, black people living for the past 60 years in America have enjoyed the benefits of just as much as white people.

[@aaronbredon2948]

The problem is really that both reparations (for the land promised to the freed slaves, then taken back) and corrections of the underlying problems behind continuing racism are needed. But the opposition constantly makes it an either/or between: 1. Fixing only one underlying cause of racism. 2. Paying reparations only to those with documentary evidence dating all the way back to the civil war (evidence that has been systematically destroyed). It doesn't matter what problem is addressed first - the moment one is decided on, they will: 1. Declare that the problem has been addressed. 2. Make it impossible (or impossibly expensive) to finish even that one task. The problem isn't good versus best - it's that things have been reduced to bad 1 versus bad 2.

[@trax9987]

In 2022, instead of Party A paying Party B, we're all paying Cardi B.

[@tinymutantsquid]

not me i'm suing her for reparations 🙃

[@daveg5857]

Two of my intellectual heroes, and I agree with Glenn.

[@zootsoot2006]

I agree with Hitchens' Elgin's argument, send them back. Kidding of course.

[@goyonman9655]

What exactly is an "intellectual hero"

[@lex5062]

Awesome debate. Ultimately I would say Loury was the winner of this debate, especially when considering modern identity politics. How easy it is to divide a populace even *without* reparations. If reparations were ever repaid, Republicans would win every election for decades afterwards, setting *everyone* back, including the recipients of those reparations.

[@kjmergen]

This video proves why debate, though important, is not a sport - because it can be done with a drink in your hand.

[@romancandlefight1144]

Nevermind the fact that you can't hold one group today accountable for what another group (tenuous distant ancestral relations) did centuries ago. By that standard we are all in the wrong forever

[@govinasimpson170]

I didn't do anything to jews and my taxes go to them every year..and it didn't even happen here..

[@PaulRamen]

No way! You debated hitch?

[@bertrandrussell894]

Yeah the only clip I've seen is of Christopher arguing for the affirmative. In that, I heard him mention Glenn but never came across the rest. Glenn has had this in his back pocket all this time.

[@Alritealritealrite]

@@bertrandrussell894 hes always said it was owed

[@BNK2442]

I have to watch the whole thing to be sure, but I think that you can find it complete with the title "Should Reparations Be Paid to the Descendants of Slaves? Christopher Hitchens Debate (2001"

[@simonoreilly5141]

Never have I heard Hitchens so thoroughly defeated in debate. Glenn Loury was outstanding, put his finger on the exact pressure point of the problem and made Peter's arguments look elementary level in their formulation and delivery. To all black people considering accepting any reparations payment; take that money and you will close the door forever on your history, never again will any point you raise be uptaken on the current social issues faced by your community. You will have been bought off forever. Consider what this will mean for the future very carefully.

[@weignerleigner3037]

That would be the least of their worries. They would just print money and hand it out to black people, destroying the dollar and the economy with it. So not only will black people be in a worse situation but every other group will look at blacks and blame them for that crisis for many years.

[@MikeSmith-pe4sl]

You could view it as the opposite, that if a marginalised group accepts reparations that they can no longer claim to be victims.

[@Joel-uv5tg]

It's Christopher Hitchens, not his idiot brother, Peter

[@rorychivers8769]

You're thinking of the other Hitchens, this one is called "Christopher"

[@blobdob1368]

Sounds like you had a predisposed bias in agreeing with glenn

[@mangoman9290]

11:56 "It matters not what you think, anyone can have thoughts, many people content themselves with feelings, it matters how you think." Such a softly spoken burn to a growing portion of the population, 'many people content themselves with feelings'. So true.

[@haroldsnipes5539]

Mr Loury has hit the nail on the head !! I never thought of it that way but he is dead right!

[@zomuana4260]

Glenn,well done ! Hitch was and is a hero of mine and boy,don't we need him today.This woke madness was made for him and if he were still alive,I honestly believe the narrative would change.He would lay into these nutters and take no prisoners-he would be ruthless and probably enjoy it as well ! Soft lefties know this wokery is all nonsense but they don't have the balls (testicular fortitude Hitch may well have said) to face off against these people. Appreciate your chats with John Mcwhorter very much !

[@adenizenabroad9593]

Hitch was a leftist himself lol

[@govinasimpson170]

What does woke mean?

[@The442nd]

It's rare to see Hitchen's in a losing posture

[@markwhatman6626]

I've not seen a video in which I was in disagreement with him either. Excellent debate.

[@buckchile614]

People see what they want to see

[@LetterToGodFromMeToYou]

Hitchen's answer is in-the-box, and only addresses an opponent who would simply say "No, black people don't DESERVE reparations". Loury's response is pioneering and goes beyond the question. Loury is the opponent who says "No- the premise of reparations is framed incorrectly". For this reason, they did a little bit of talking over the other. I believe Loury taught Hitchens a new perspective with this conversation.

[@buckchile614]

@@LetterToGodFromMeToYou Hitchens broke Loury's view down to basically one man's opinion--not to upset the applecart

[@verzinghettorix6360]

This folks is what we call conformation bias.

[@Mart-Bro]

Brilliant content. Thanks Glenn

[@brianhatano697]

Thank you for sharing!

[@tb9368]

His argument that no one will care about the plight of the Black American after reperations is laughable because no one cares now even without reparations. This entire comment section is filled with people who think black people are entitled, period regardless of wether or not we are paid backpay for 400 years of unpaid wages.

[@rayhan3654]

Wow! As a great admirer of Hitchens, I have to admit this is perhaps one of a few debates that he has lost. I stumbled across Glenn through Sam Harris' podcast some years ago and have been thoroughly impressed by his eloquence and analytical profundity. I had absolutely no idea that both Hitch and Glenn had debated! It fills me with joy that both seem to have enormous respect for one and other; what an amazing guest Hitchens would be on the Glenn show had he still been around! Amazing upload!

[@billlyons7024]

I discovered Glenn through Sam Harris as well, and his (this) channel is a treasure. His conversations with John McWhorter are fantastic. They are sincere, knowledgeable, wise and most of all, trustworthy. Thank you Glenn!

[@MattSingh1]

*Hitchens won rather handily. Could you provide some evidence or example(s) of why Hitchens lost? The fact that you provide no evidence or examples probably means you're a hack. Hitchens even specifically tackled Loury's arrguments.*

[@tony-gy2bq]

Slavery was a normal practice in practically every culture for thousands of years. Every nation had slaves and every nation had some of its members enslaved. Hitchens and Glenn don’t seem to understand that. Slavery was the norm. Slavery was invented in Africa, not the US. Slavery was forcefully ended, in the Western hemisphere, in the 19th century. It was ended in North America by a civil war that cost three quarters of a million lives. Hitchens and company seemed to be unable of comprehending that western Europeans voluntarily (and forcibly) ended slavery. Does he give a damn that his friends in China still practice forced labor on the Uighurs? That slavery is still practiced in Africa and India and many Muslim countries? Instead of receiving gratitude for being given freedom in a world where slavery was the norm, white Americans are being told by those freed that that the blood and treasure spent in the civil war was just a down payment on endless reparations. My respect for hitchens has been considerably diminished.

[@Bostronix]

Love this. Glenn is the undisputed winner and takes down my childhood hero

[@freedomworks3976]

For real

[@walterhoughton4586]

The guy is exactly RIGHT! The purpose of a civil payment, is to be made whole. And he's exactly right, NO AMOUNT OF MONEY IS GOING TO DO THAT! If there's no amount of money that can be rendered, to make one whole .... Then the discussion shouldn't be about money. It should be, what would make you whole? Because he's speaking the truth ... Reparations is so some people can FEEL better about something that happened, others can profit off of what happened to others . . But at the end of the day, it was NEVER ABOUT BEING MADE WHOLE, because if it was ... There'd be no problem with saying, you got your money, I don't want to hear about it anymore. The reason that will hit some people as offensive, proves mine and his point. .. The payment isn't about making anyone whole. It doesn't right the wrong. This whole issue is about people today, mostly intellectuals with idol minds, needing to invent grievances that they feel the need to be forgiven for. Lawyers & middle men (politicians families) that will end up with most of the money & a few ordinary people that'll get a few bucks but won't make a difference in their life.

[@Patrick-il4es]

Hitchens: God Debate: A+; Reparations Debate: D-

[@hurdygurdyman1905]

Agree. And yet he was wrong about God, too.

[@michaeldehart3253]

Interesting debate for sure. Regardless of how you feel I’ve always thought reparations was one of those issues that was never meant to be solved, but to used as a wedge issue to ignite a voter block come election time.

[@andrepack]

Never forget Glenn Loury is LEGENDARY

[@RedfishCarolina]

I have basically sided with the opposition against Hitchens in every debate of his I've listened to. And yet somehow I miss him greatly.

[@tye829]

I totally clicked this assuming Hitchens would be against reparations and the other guy would be for lol

[@vhufeosqap]

The self proclaimed luxembourgist socialist? Hehe

[@TheSecondInitiate]

Disappointing that Hitchens didnt have the courage to bring up the African Barbary enslavement of Europeans in this context when he was perfectly fine with bringing it up in debates against Islam.

[@matthewhiggins2699]

A rare instance of Hitchens supporting the weaker argument. Glenn Loury was phenomenal and unarguable.

[@Minister1246]

Nah, just appealed to the crowd of a lighter hue 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@mellowtron214]

I miss Hitchens. But it’s a pleasant surprise to see Glenn once shared a stage with a behemoth of the intellectual left. There was a case to be made that individual beneficiaries of slavery should have been forced to pay essentially back wages, and damages to those they enslaved, but in 2022, I see no reason for people who’ve never seen a slave to be paying other people who’ve never seen a slave. Depending on the politics of the candidate, I could easily see myself becoming a single issue voter in opposition to reparations. And we could get in to grotesque and perverse calculations of how much money white people have paid that black people have taken via social programs, and run the tab, but I think all of that is tasteless and is beside the point… you shouldn’t be able to, nor be willing to cash in on the appropriated suffering of your ancestors. Our government should not be trying to right past wrongs with present and further wrongs. And I feel like all of this viewpoint around slavery is hyper-American-centric. Seeing as how slavery was, and in many places still is a ubiquitous human universal, it seems gross to single out one group for having slave ancestors as if that’s unique, when we can be damn near certain that every human alive today has myriad ancestors who were enslaved. Not to mention the 60-100 MILLION humans enslaved as I type this. It would be a frail grasp at cash if Greeks and Briton’s and Frenchmen were claiming special pleading because they had slave ancestors, and I see black Americans similarly. This attitude and perception of black Americans as being unique for having slave ancestors, seems to stem solely from the wider American ignorance on global slavery, which leaves them blind to the fact that slavery existed before and after America, and black American slaves were only a tiny minority of all slaves in human history. It’s complicated, but I don’t think non-slave owners should be paying non-slaves for being related to distant slaves, like literally everyone else on earth, maybe put 1/10th of that energy in to helping those enslaved right now, instead of pathologically fixating on slaves none of us can help who died long ago.

[@voxomnes9537]

I think you should read Ta-Nehisi Coates's 2014 Atlantic article for reparations, if you haven't already, to get another perspective on what makes some of your counterpoints possibly insufficient. You have a good one!

[@buckchile614]

There's actually plenty more whites on Welfare than blacks. So why are they getting it if they weren't enslave? You're bringing up apples and oranges

[@verzinghettorix6360]

The idea that you compare american chattel slavery which was literally 200 years ago to britons ffs is literal infantile brain shit. The economic factors of american slavery are still founded to this day not only in slavery but also the wider century longer legal secondclass citizenship of jim crow laws which my own father was alive during. Just a insane argument that global historical slavery is comparable to generational cultrual shifting chattel slavery that made an entire new group of human being, completely severed from any cultural history only married to this orgin of bondage. Your own ignorance is glaringly obvious

[@johnramos9145]

Although I'm not in favor of reparations, I think that the residual affects of oppression still linger and cause injustice, inequality, and discrimination in the present not just the past. I think their are a great number of African Americans also still suffering from the lingering affects of much more recent apartheid institutional racism practiced throughout the 20th century. To say that because one has never seen a slave is a very simplistic argument and one that shows an emotional bias about what I think comes from a redistribution of wealth from someone who believes they are not responsible however not acknowledging the system that made that wealth attainment possible.

[@blobdob1368]

The whole “you didn’t realize slavery existed worldwide” is the true ignorant position. The idea that you could compare ancient britons and greeks to african slaves a couple centuries ago is laughable. African americans are a new people birthed soley from bondage. African american history starts at the slave ship when they were commoditized to the point where the had zero language or culture except for what the slaver gave them. These people were also directly oppresed for another century under jim crow laws my own father was alive for. The socio-economic factors most blacks live under today is in direct correlation to the enslavement and oppression they faced for 300 years. I live in the exact same area as my slave ancestor did when he was born in 1830

[@jp6234]

Great discussion. Professor Loury wins my vote. Christopher had the bad side to defend and did his best.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

You ever think it's interesting the loury on his channel only posted up to his response to Hitchens, but not Hitchens second response to his...

[@jmcmob608]

Thank you very much...

[@4greendeep6]

Glenn Loury has the best argument and the moral authority.