What causes Pellets to Spiral? | AB101 pt. 11: Precession & Nutation

Part 11 of the Airgun Ballistics 101 Series takes us through a few hypotheses as to why pellets spiral, eventually landing at an interesting conclusion!
Gregor Kamensek's video: • Airgun physics - part ...
Precession & Nutation Explained: • Gyroscopes: Rotation, ...
AB101 pt. 10 on transonic airflow: • Subsonic, Transonic an...
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[@treeassassin]

To think i had stopped watching you because you walked on this series. Then to see what you have been doing for us!!! Wish you tons of luck with element.. Sad a epidemic was needed to get you the time for this. Stay safe Matt!

[@losonsrenoster]

I've been shooting airguns for 51 years, and found that I have shot better groups 40 or 50 years ago than my groups of recent times. During my school years I was the best shot in town with an airgun, but today I can hardly get two out of 5 shots close together. I believed it was due to old age or poorer eyesight, but now I realize the speeds I am shooting at is 50% to 80% higher than with my old Diana and BSA airguns. This video is the best information on the subject that I have ever seen. Thanks.

[@Campero1115]

Buen punto.

[@affordableairgunningbyjb6994]

Hi Matt. After writing a whole paragraph explaining why your theory is flawed, I again carefully looked at your explanation. You could very well be correct, even if some of the information is "factually incorrect" the way you explained it. (That was what triggered the initial paragraph). So, there is a way to prove your hypothesis: As according to your hypothesis the wobble is caused by the bullet following a "curve" but trying to stay pointing in straight line. This "force on the back of the skirt" (as the pellet drops) is what starts the wobble, and YES looking at Precession it then makes sense as the "correcting" force is not acting against it, but 90 deg to it. Sooooo, if you were to shoot that pellet "vertical" that "lifting force" on the back of the skirt won't be there as the pellet travels in a straight line..... If that same pellet has no wobble in the vertical, then I think you hit the nail on the head !!

[@AirArmsHuntingSA]

I would love to find a vertical range to test that😂 But there may also be many other factors, so that test in itself may not give us an answer.

[@affordableairgunningbyjb6994]

@@AirArmsHuntingSA Matt, any spot you stand is a vertical range , as long as you are outside 😂. It might be interesting and worth testing ?!?

[@henrymoreland8719]

Shoot your slugs fast, shoot your short pellets med, shoot your long pellets slow, watch and learn. Glad Gregor got a mention, saved me doing it. opp's, mentioned him anyway, ah well He is well worth it. thank you Matt, always an education.

[@mtaupik6213]

"SUCCESS FOR YOU MATT DUBBER " From indonesia 🇮🇩

[@Tops1212]

I would just like to say thankyou Matt, for making all of your videos and series. I've been recovering from a total left knee replacement surgery since Jsnuary and I've become a huge fan of yours. It's been awesome to watch almost all of your videos of you hunting and showing of your beautiful country with the majestic animals. Thanks again for the videos Matt, you inspired an Army veteran who at the age of 49, is coming to terms with having a major part of my body replaced and I look forward to seeing more of your hunts. Bye from Canada.🇨🇦

[@EarthSurferUSA]

Throwing a football, (American), is a spiral. But the spin rate is naturally found by the Quarterback as he practices to get the best twist rate. This may sound a bit far fetched, but it may be true that if you studied the twist rate of some pro's spin rates, (and I bet they are all pretty close to each other), it might prove to be a very good twist in a pellet gun. Lots of dynamics going on I know and a football is big in diameter, but I would not be surprised if we found a "natural spin" that would apply.

[@AlexaBarathaHV]

Mr. Matt, can i take your picture on my videos just a view seconds? Pleaseee... i will give you DM on Instagram..

[@ykristoforusaguskwang6731]

Sotoshop beraksi 🤣🤣🤣

[@ykristoforusaguskwang6731]

Lanjutken kawan

[@rohimbramasta9185]

Aku ra mudeng mas bhasane😁😅

[@FirstStateAirgun]

Knowledge is power!! Thanks for the great info.. Even if i have to watch it a few more times to soak it all in great job!!

[@shaunythefaunyfauny8545]

Hi Matt, i just bought myself the FX impact MKII in .25 shooting the 33.95 JSB very well at 50 yards. now i wanted to shoot slugs i got really excited bought he slug barrel en 26.5 grain NSA slugs but i jus cant group them they are spreading all over an A4 paper.. u have maybe some tips for me? cheers

[@AirArmsHuntingSA]

Yeah I never had any success shooting the NSAs or any other slugs for that matter in .25 without a lot of work and fine tuning. The bearing surface is very important. I believe the new ‘Superior’ liners are way better.

[@rickoshea8138]

26.5 grain slugs are too light. Or more exactly, their bearing length is so short that it allows the slug to yaw inside the barrel. Get some heavier slugs that have a bearing length of at least 5 mm long. Those should do better.

[@munkytaint666]

i LOVE this entire series, Thanks Matt!! each episode is so rich with information, i find that i have to watch each one several times to let all that sweet information soak into my brain... which i don't mind at all!! ;)

[@petemulhearn7787]

A friend and I were having a discussion about the phenomenon just yesterday. Thanks Matt, useful info.

[@ColoradoAirgunner]

Matt Dubber is a wealth of information! Like many, he was my inspiration to become a KZbin content provider! Keep up the good work!

[@the.original.throwback]

Uh oh. This information is making my mind spin. Oh no! It's precessing out of control! Your video is an excellent external force to make me think. Thanks. Jess

[@DARRELLGRIFFITHS]

Yes, awesome, this is a nice break from hunting with slugs. Not many of us shoot the open plains of Africa with little need of back stop. Mat, back to your best.

[@johnharvey892]

A awesome video Matt. I would like to share this info with you. I have a HATSAN carnivore in 35 caliber. I started using the h& n grizzly slugs and they were great out to 50 yards. At 75 yards a group was non existent. I switched to some jsb pellets and at a hundred yards it was a tack driver. The jsb pellets were traveling around nine hundred feet per second. The h&n slugs were traveling around 824 feet per second. That to me was a big difference with only one grain difference in the weight of the ammo. The h& n grizzlies were 82 grains. The jsb pellets were 81 grains. I decided to push both ball through the barrel. I noticed the jsb had light twist rate on the skirt. The h&n slugs had heavy deep rifling marks around the slug. I put the inaccuracy down to the fact... That the h&n slug was too big for my barrel. Ballistically it's still didn't explain to me why it was spot-on at 50 yards but at 75 yards it opened up to a 12 inch group. This information is not recent. This information is 5 years old. I realize things are a little bit different now and air gunning has come a long way and things are becoming more compatible... but I believe this is still useful information for those that seek knowledge. The one thing that has always intrigued me and also frustrated me is the amount of variables when it comes to the shooting sport. I was strictly a powder burning guy before I became an air Gunner... But learning about air rifles has been such an education and completely help me be a better Marksman all the way around.

[@BeefaloBart]

Slugs solve lots of this issue, but maybe its time to seek new designs for the pellet for faster airguns. Since the skirt is a source of drag, taper it in vs out. Or just try using an air stripper on the barrel to help out with the exit forces.

[@codybanks9944]

www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-sheridan-ammunition-tin-5mm-20447089 This design worked quite well for decades. :~)

[@lunatic231]

Brilliant, not sure if you read these comments and if not that's understandable but in the slight case you do, please have a video explaining how climate/temperature/pressure affects PCPs. That I think would be perfect. As we all shoot in such different places.

[@timonlamprey29]

Very interesting and all you're saying makes sense, I'm wondering if the spiraling or corkscrewing may also be caused by gravity and the bullets drop at distance because maybe once it drops past a certain angle below its original bore axis the airflow and drag may affect the upper portion of its skirt most and that uneven pressure could start the destabilization and typical corkscrew motion as the pellet spins. Just a theory, I'm studying Biology not physics😂

[@AirArmsHuntingSA]

Yes I think you’re spot on.

[@thomasa5619]

I think many centrefire ELR shooters worry about overstabilising a projectile and this may be an exaggerated example

[@pcplam6757]

@@AirArmsHuntingSA slung để áp nhiu vậy chú?

[@Wolverineverminshooting]

Very interesting matt and well explained 👍 maybe one day someone might try a smooth barrel and a pellet with the spiral on it. Maybe the rifling grooves from the barrel could have a effect on the pellets. Food for thought

[@totokkris4110]

i think polygon barrel is basically similar to your thought. may be.🤔

[@carsmax]

Hi Matt. Great explanation about this more or less problem !! I shut the "Monsters" both in my .177 and .22 HW 77K´s about 17-18 fpe No good ,No good ! From 40 yds I couldn´t hit my garage door !!!!!!! All over the place. I thought I will use this guys for FT challenge so I let tune those down to sub 12 fpe and guess what accurate to 100 yds( 3" target with the .177 ), in sub 12 and using the 13.43 gr. and a lot of hold over :))

[@hankvana2149]

Thanks Matt! Will need to watch this a couple of times! The FX Hybrids shoot very well from my Impact but are way overpriced relative to the competition - will try the JSB KOs when they become available in Canada.

[@johnmoss4140]

Just a thought, you mentioned "tractability" in an earlier AB101. could that be the initiating factor? As the pellet starts to fall because of shed velocity, the pellet is no longer traveling along the spin axis and skirt is exposed to the air flow. Also the higher muzzle velocity would increase the speed of the spin which would not fall off as fast as the forward velocity adding to the lack of tractability. this would explain why the spin happens down range and why lowering the muzzle velocity would sometimes correct the problem. It might also explain why a longer pellet would be more affected. The longer "tail" of the skirt would apply more leverage and exacerbate the precession.

[@AirArmsHuntingSA]

I think it is a factor, but there is no proof of this or way to test it. So I’d rather not give it as “fact”. There is a lot of debate in the shooting community as to whether tractability is even a factor or not!

[@johnmoss4140]

@@AirArmsHuntingSA seems to me if spin rate/tractability is a factor you should be able to push a pellet, that exibits instability, at a higher speed through a barrel with a lower twist rate.

[@martingagnon4547]

@@AirArmsHuntingSA The way to test if tractability is an issue is to shot pellets following the line of gravity. Up in a tower shoting down... with no wind preferably!

[@1776adb]

You buy it in good faith and it's the luck of the draw. You can get a great $200 gun or a $1500 lemon.

[@andrewmerriman2963]

Nice job Matt. The airgun community, (especially FX) is grateful for all of your work and dedication. And to think it all started with a fun, successful hunting outing when you were a boy.

[@iandixon9604]

Really interesting subject Matt, I can't help feeling that this phenomenon is caused by multiple factors, one example I can think of is barrel harmonics and pellet speed. It seems that the more perfectly you can balance all the relevant factors the further you can accurately shoot them. Thanks for your hard work Matt really enjoyed watching.

[@anhthangproducer3448]

Please ! Can I ask you? Uneven weight causes an unstable ballistic ?

[@donhunley7359]

great info matt! delving into the "why" pellets spiral is a worthy subject. good hunting!

[@richardwalkden6349]

Any one have a view....? What would the effect of an actual spherical round be? I can imagine some complication as the sphere or ball passes through the rifling but once in free flight it seems in my mind to be a “nearer” to perfect solution?

[@thomasa5619]

I didn’t know that what I thought was precession was actually nutation, so glad to learn something new

[@Primer595]

I tried to get H& N to make a tubular design of pellet. Peter Schmidt looked at various designs but ultimately they chose to go with the conventional designs. I have found that pellets fired from a 12 foot pound rifle chronograph faster fired backwards ie skirt first, than when they are fired forwards ie nose first. They also expand very well at close range. I have not tried them at 25 metres but around 8 meters or so. I suggested in an article, I got published in 1976, that a projecting guidance point might help pellets travel straighter in tissue. A number of years later an America company made their bullets expand with the guidance point feature. I believe it was Federal Hydra shok. Strangely all bullets and pellets are sub-sonic after they strike gelatine, water or live tissue as they become sub-sonic in that medium. The speed of sound in water and other water saturated materials is always much higher than it is in air, so bullets are always subsonic as they penetrate game or gel or water. Nice video.

[@chunkamborentta4713]

Couldn't have fathomed all this without this video.. always wondered where my pellets flew with my unregulated airguns . Thank you once again! Love from Nagaland.

[@AzAirgunHunter]

Good video. Thanks for sharing your observations and knowledge on this issue. This is an issue that we air-gunners all face at some point in time. Overall good lesson. However, there are many air-gunners who like myself can not afford an FX air rifle with slug liner to get the results that you do. The rifle itself makes a difference in how it performs.

[@AirArmsHuntingSA]

I think there are many other great airguns out there for a lot less. The difficulty is making sure you don’t get a ‘lemon’. Test it first before you buy it! There are some old BSA barrels for example that are worth their weight in gold.

[@AzAirgunHunter]

AirArmsHuntingSA Thank you for your response. I own a Hatsan BT65 in .25 cal which is my primary Airgun and a Benjamin Armada in .22 cal. Both are nice Airguns. Both guns give me good results. My .22 is very consistent out to 60 yards. My .25 cal takes me out to 100 yards. I have gotten several clean kills at this distance. However, I do get a spiraling pellet when tuned too high or sometimes when my tune is too low or should I say low on air. Both guns are regulated. With my .22 shooting at 813 FPS I see no spiraling. My .25 cal shoots 916 FPS but I can take it up to 940 FPS with no spiral. But when the air pressure gets low the pellet appears to become unstable. So this is kind of the opposite of what you were saying. I use the JSB Exact King 25.39g in my .25 cal. So I have learned to keep my air pressure at a certain psi in order to maintain accuracy. Thanks for the dialogue. Any input or suggestions are very welcomed. Take care and stay safe.

[@kimhammerum132]

Is it possible to put the twist lines on the outside of the pellet to motivate it to keep spinning?

[@philthefluter1]

Just seriously informed, I am an Engineer and so impressed with your grasp of ballistics.

[@christopheryee1356]

Thank you for another excellent video.

[@neiltonsilva9444]

subtitles or translations were lacking, for Brazilian Portuguese.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

Yet your English is almost perfect. :)

[@peterthorne3550]

just wondered if having a slight point from the middle of the skirt would create a better stabalisation in the deflection of the air like a h and n terminator front on the back .realy enjoyed vid thanks

[@2musiclover534]

Absolutely brilliant. Your work is first rate! Would give you 10 likes for each posting if I could. Thank you.

[@BernieDiaz]

Matt, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but you should contact Destin Sandlin of 'Smarter Every Day'. His passion is ballistics and high speed photography. I'm sure he can bring some interesting insight to this question. His friend Mark Rober, also a scientist, can chime in as well. It would be great if you guys could end up collaborating on the subject and get the fun scientist's POV of things.

[@openfieldtarget]

Yes.. excellent information 💕Would love to see more videos on pellet accuracy. Which shape pellet gives the best accuracy...and why. Thank you! from India 🇮🇳

[@markgilbert7012]

Very informative but my head hurts now 😂, think I'll stick with my .177 sub 12

[@hankvana2149]

LOL!!!

[@armandmeggyesi32]

So good video but i didnt see :)

[@josephpapale7087]

Hey how are you I recently subscribed to your chanel bit I'm i. A bit of a dilemma. I thought i was decided on which caliber to buy for the impact. I wanted the .30 but now they cam out with the .35. I don't have it like you guys one gun for every cal. But can you tell me what you think I should get you shot both please help me out.

[@josephpapale7087]

Matt what kinda answer was that thumbs up

[@ekohuntingvlog9299]

Nice video..i like it.👍😉 Briliant info.🙏😉 I came frome indonesia..allways suport you my brother.

[@elliottdrewry8994]

I love these videos. Like this is better than any sort of tv. The content and quality is incredible. Nice work.

[@mus1970]

I could (and in fact can) do very well without TV but would dearly miss several high quality YT channels - this is one of them.

[@steveb7310]

Interesting stuff Matt. It’s cool that we now have the ability to really observe and experiment with these things because of the advancement in technology available to all of us. Regarding firearm twist rates, the one downside in high powered rifles is centrifugal force causing bullets to explode in flight. Not a problem with air guns.

[@rickoshea8138]

Diabolo pellets would require slower twist to resist muzzle blast buffeting, if an effective air stripper is used. I believe that such air strippers are what enabled FX's original smooth twist barrels, with their very low effective pellet spin rate. Sans air stripper (or some form of baffling close to the muzzle), higher twist rates are a must for the more powerful airguns that have more air blast at the muzzle. Else, their pellets may take a longer time to stop the initial wobbling after leaving the muzzle.

[@linkbond08]

So slugs fly like bullets Pellets fly like arrows. Nice!

[@ben-lt5bp]

Hi . On New FX impact mk2 power plenum what is max reg pressure plz ? thanks

[@airgunnut9489]

i had this with a few of my airguns, i was told on a few well known airgun forums that it was an optical illusion (you know the types.... think they know it all's) despite 6 other people who were behind and to ether side of me saying they were seeing the exact same thing. Tip crossman accupells are the best to see the spiral as the flat part inside of the skirt is like a mirror, best when the sun is behind you. Bisley magnum pellets used to be off center when you rolled one on a flat surface and watched the center line (front to back) and they spiraled a lot in a number of airguns i have seen. its impossible to say with absolute certainly what courses pellet spiral, there is a thousand and one variables, a pellet which spiraled in my gun did not spiral in another gun (both Falcon FN19 both producing 11.8 foot pounds) in the airgun community at the time when i was seriously into air gunning, it was known that you have to try every pellet you can to find the one that your airgun likes, i have seen on multiple occasions 2 guns with following serial numbers (they came off the production line one after the other) and they both like vastly different pellets (one likes the marksmen pointed pellets out of the little cardboard box, the other liked logun penetrator pellets) i think its a combination of many little things like the pellet been slightly off center, the lead alloy been softer or harder enabling it to form into the rifling better/worse (the antimony in airgun pellets will make the lead alloy age harden) the skirt of the pellet might have a slight defect, the power of the airgun been too high or too low for that pellet, ect,ect.

[@codybanks9944]

Exactly!! Well said!! :~)

[@gysbertdeklerk]

Awesome video. Where can buy slugs for my Kral Puncher Jumbo 22 in South Africa?

[@Z28PAPI]

Hey MATT, now that a couple years have passed do you have anything you'd like to add to Air Gun Ballistics 101 with the new technology and information you've gained?

[@justovelarde3456]

Hello, congratulations for the video. I'm going crazy, because my cricket tactical carbine 2 in 5.5mm at 50 meters with JSB of 18.13 group well (880 FPS); but, with 25 grain, it makes that "spiral" and I CANNOT CORRECT IT. From your video I have a better idea of ​​what I should do. What do you recommend, increase or decrease speed? Thank you.

[@namziugumbechuilo5057]

Don't have any Air rifles but still watches every videos of pellet stability

[@h2oacua936]

Hi Matt Please can you help me .... I have an Impact MK II cal.25 with the new 600mm Superior Heavy liner. I have tried to configure my weapon to be able to shoot well the Nielsen of 33.5gr at 90 and 100yards at 900fps, 930fps, 950fps, until reaching 1000fps and with bad results. The strange thing is that the Hybrids at 1000fps and the King Heavy MK II at 920fps performed very well (Better the Heavy) What slug would you recommend for this Heavy liner .... weight, speed etc ??? B, Regards

[@Edydisouza]

Um dia ainda vou realizar meu sonho de comprar uma fx impact pra mim

[@dabish2888]

At what distances are you "magnum" guys seeing this pellet behavior? I have a Gamo Hunter Extreme Pro in. 22 (break barrel). It's a legitimate 30 ft lb. rifle, so I try to go heavy when shooting for distance. This is just to slow the muzzle speed down. It genuinely shoots at or near its advertised speed at 1300 fps with light alloy pellets (9.7 gr.). I have a pest issue, which is dealt with in very close range, so in that case I'm not too concerned with wobble. However, if I'm shooting at some considerable distance (+50 yds.), I notice that these light alloys are not as accurate as the heavier ones. With 15-18 gr. pellets, the gun is a "tack-driver" at most distances tested. I haven't played around with pellets in the light to heavy spectrum. Just curious about others' experiences.

[@TrashPanda71]

Ive been frustrated with mid range accuracy " 25 yards " out of my .22 Summit NP.... spot on at 10-20 and from 50-100 as best as i can tell as ive never put long rang on paper but i can hit soda cans 4 out of 5 shots. Lol Lastnight while shooting with my light on i could see the pellet flight, and wow big ol corkscrew, like one big one within a 25 yard distance. Took my suppressor off, same, swapped pellets, same, even tried round balls, same. Shot my buddies new Ruger Wally World .22 and id had a very tight and fast corkscrew but id bet a 1/4 or so where's mine was like 4" .. cant say mine is Over powered, under or around 800 fps.

[@christosmavrommatis912]

Just a thought (based on an older video of your's) : When trying to shoot very fast a diabolo shaped projectile, you use higher pressure blast of air on the back of your pellet than usual, the "cup" side , thus this higher blast may turn around the pellet just as exiting the barrel. This may oscillate the projectile until the shape forces to finally stabilize. There are 3 ways to solve it: 1. Shot at lower speed 2. Shoot with air stripper, which deflects much of the blasting air aside thus refusing the pressure on the cup. 3. Shoot the pellet reversed, the blast will flow around and keep the pellet centered. I don't know if makes any sense, as said these are just thought triggered by your very interesting "balistics" videos, always a pleasure watching them. Thanks for your info you provide us with your work.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

4) Drill 3 holes in the barrel, 120 degrees apart around the barrel, 1 to 2 inches from the muzzle, to relieve the air pressure behind the pellet just before it leaves the muzzle,--then crank up the reg pressure. :) Just a thought.

[@gregwickersham1390]

Sigh, was pretty much dead set about trying the jsb king heavies in my .25 marauder, but should probably take your word for it. I’ve been using the 25.4 grain kings, and they are laser accurate to 40-50 yards, easily sub moa. Past 50-60, then it goes downhill quick beyond that. Oddly enough, the times I’ve tried to pop birds off wires when the sun is right and I can easily see the pellet in flight through the scope, it’s really more of a left to right zig zag than a full circular spiral. I’ve tried slowing it down, the results didn’t seem real impressive, and on top of that, well, it’s a 25 cal air gun, I didn’t buy it to baby the power level lol

[@BackyardDispatcher]

This video answers so many questions I have been pondering on for years. Thank you for all the work you put into this.

[@Campero1115]

Me pasó lo mismo.

[@davidghattas31]

Please which is the best speed of the JSB king of 25.39 grains of .25 caliber in your opinion , in lothar Walther barrel of Edgun Matador .25 ??? Thank you and best regards ..

[@Netsroht72]

There is another physical Effekt(Magnus Effekt). A rotating Cylinder reacts with a force 90 degree to incomming crosswind. A Pellet is far away from a perfect Cylinder, so the force is very inhomogen. Maybe thats another Parameter for the Spirals?

[@Era_1400]

Hello My name is waseem from Saudi Arabia I want to use some clips from your KZbin videos to use in my training content and I want and I hope you will allow me to do that

[@Dhidotzchannel]

make me your student

[@sammydavis4445]

Matt, you think I could accurately shot KO slugs from my pellet liner? What speed would you recommend?

[@theshootindutchman]

Sammy, Matt has done a very in-depth and complete video on slugs which you should look up and watch on this KZbin channel. The answer to your question is......you must have at least 950 fps (feet per second) velocity to stabilize and accurately shoot a modern slug. Furthermore, you need this velocity to cause the slug cavity to "open up" and effectively take game animals. Finally, if you have an air rifle which does not reach these velocities but at least comes close, you could experiment with "hybrid" slugs which are lighter in weight, and also have a larger "hollow" body cavity which allows them to accept the "crush" effect of many pellet rifles with choked barrels. "Choked" barrels tighten at the very end to increase pellet uniformity and thus accuracy. Good luck😊!

[@racegts]

I wonder how much longer it will be until the airgun world starts to make slugs that look like BTHP bullets??? BTW... BRIAN LITZ is THE man when it comes to ballistic science in firearms.

[@Jeeper1378]

Anybody see/us the JTS dead center 22 cal pellet with the flat spot? Heres their description X Unleash your shooting potential with JTS Dead Center Precision Semi-Domed Pellets. These Semi-Domed pellets have a flatter front profile allowing them to slice through the air with reduced resistance. As a result, semi-domed pellets tend to maintain a slightly flatter trajectory and retain more energy. Dominate at the range with JTS Dead Center Precision Semi-Domed Pellets

[@andylarner3531]

I would love to be shooting slugs but in the UK we have to be below 12ftlbs of energy so we cannot shoot slugs because getting a firearm certificate involves having somewhere to shoot the firearm before you can get a certificate

[@rickoshea8138]

And shooting a .22 rimfire rifle is actually cheaper than shooting airgun slugs...

[@rabbit5717]

Same with arrow weight and what’s known as FOC. Too fast of a bow with a too light of an arrow will cause it to fishtail or porpoise. Once the arrow slows down, it starts to become more stable, but by that time it’s gone off its intended target. Sometimes this can be avoided by different fletching, designs and point weights. But there’s no point in shooting very light arrows to brag about speed with a very fast bow and sacrifice accuracy. There’s a saying with archery pros, you tune the arrow to the bow you don’t tune the bow to the arrow. So in conclusion with very fast bow shooting 280 to 300 ft./s in actual speed, not advertise speed, the heavier the arrow, the more stable. So shooting a 7.4 to 8.4 grain pallet at 900+ feet per second the pallet will just come out going crazy because it’s going too fast.

[@steventhompson3507]

Brilliant vid.. By the way your most recent and quite rude critic with very questionable engineering practises, caused me to come back to watching you 🤣🤣🤣 all publicity must be good publicity hey 🤣🤣

[@andystephens9520]

In a previous episode you discussed barrels and rifling. Also, photos were shown of pellets that had been shot and the Rifling Mark's were shown. Has anyone investigated the impact to pellets flight because of the Marks made on a pellet from Rifling? Perhaps this could be the source of may anomalies in pellet flight. As mentioned in other videos Diablo pellets were designed to be shot from Smooth Barrels.

[@erickfragata7975]

I dont understand the deeper science behind accuracy factors but I was able to establish accuracy of my rifle through trial and error. Since then for some years now, I consistently chose only a single pellet weight and brand and used the same rifle type, brand and make for 3 consecutive purchases already, and it works fine everytime. I think I could be efficient by mastering just one equipment through years and years of practice until the equipment becomes an extension of my body..

[@rabbit5717]

He also mentioned FOC front of center which in arrow flight is actually hugely important in target and especially hunting. The higher the FOC, the more down range momentum. I fast light pellet has a very low FOC with very low momentum which in pellet or slug hunting has low penetration. You’re better off with a heavy pellet or slug traveling slower with high momentum which creates high kill possibilities.

[@whiskyguzzler982]

The more the projectile physics is dominated by the skirt, the more that spinning is bad once it is clear of the barrel air puff. This is true both for over-stabilization and for gyroscopic precession on a low BC projectile. Ideally for a pellet, we’d have high pressure that was completely dissipated just as the pellet left the barrel and no spin. Since that is not practical, we want a bit of spin to get us out of the puff. This was the smooth twist revolution - not smooth then twist, but a gentle twist for pellets. For slugs, generally spin ‘em as fast as possible without centrifugal forces flying them apart. If you lob them and spin to over-stabilization, you may see a net lower BC which could lead to precession in extreme cases. What did I get wrong?

[@PhilipMcDonough-rw8hn]

This wobble or pitching seems very similar to an archers arrow doing a similar thing i think it's called "archers paradox"where the arrow has to travel over a certain distance with a pitch/wobble but then eventually corrects itself maybe the problem is related to too light or heavy pellets along with the shape of the pellet i think an arrow has to have the correct spine (stiffness)to suit that particular power of the bow etc.maybe it also influences air rifle pellets along with rifle rifling pellet shape/wind deflections too much ft lbs I think it's a very fine balance to master,just a thought,most enjoyable video and very informative,thank you.

[@lorenray9479]

Good observations!

[@zsedcz]

And that my friend was a wonderful video, very very informative, thank you so much.

[@colinmartin2974]

I didnt like the way you just jumped to "as the pellet leaves the barrel" Whoah there fella, there is a lot going on before that point. Ive also addressed this dis stabilisation problem but from right back to the point when the seated pellet starts to be affected by the pulse, pressure gradient, acceleration, final pressure, tempreature, twist rate and bore twist. Bore twist being the spiral deformation of the bores axis during the process of forcing the "button" down the barrel to form the lands, or even more difficult in the flattening twist applied to fx barrels. Im not saying anything against fx, i think their accuracy is legendary. But the pellet can be accelerated hard then by an almost negative shockwave by the depletion of the initial pulse volume delivery curve, all these factors dictate how the pellet is manipulated right at the point when it leaves the barrel. The shape of the hollow, its volume, and the difference in air pressure stored inside the rear of the pellet. And you just glazed right over that like it doesnt affect the flight.....

[@fliesarenegade]

Just a stupid thought: why not give the skirt of a pellet a certain twist, something like an aileron on a wing, to give it a certain amount of spin? By adding more 'aileron' you can make the spin faster and vice versa. If that works you might be able to make pellets to shoot a certain distance or at a certain speed. You mentioned the same about the wings on an arrow. Might help stabilize pellets.

[@markkapono9769]

Thanks Matt! So, thinking that pellet seating is more important now, as a poorly seated pellet is poised for precessional perturbation from breech to target? As pellets with thin skirts which can deform on insertion to breech can be positioned with pellet axis off from that of bore? Basically, what I wonder, can a pellet travel the barrel with same precessional motion if poorly loaded?

[@AirArmsHuntingSA]

I know for a fact that seating depth makes a difference because I have an adjustable probe and have done tests myself. But I don’t fully understand the science behind it.

[@Опневматике]

I believe that the cause of the beginning of the spiral is not a defect in the bullet or an accidental gust of wind, but the point of inflection of the trajectory

[@havarblindheim9552]

Omg i hate u 😜 now i have to upgrade to a fx impact 30 or 25. Starting too get expensive. Luckily my gun dealer can send me packages that are marked as a price from a contest

[@chrisfigueroa3361]

Thanks Matt dubber you are the man thanks for sharing buddy bsafe

[@alessandrofae2621]

good afternoon i have a condor rifle with a polygonal lw barrel .22 and i am having problems with groups over 50 meters. I would like some tips on pellets and speeds to try to improve these groups. thank you.

[@philkennedy342]

Ballistics and trajectory is a fascinating subject never had that problem personally but know a few that have and almost all have corrected themselves once tuned down one thing noticed was rate of spin down range most pellets being of a shuttlecock design making things worse as pellet speed and rotation slow.... it's a subject and a half nice video👍👍👍👍

[@johancahyadi6905]

Which will have bigger spiral potent, front-heavy or balance heavy thicker skirt? Both are diabolo design.

[@realmic1537]

can you make Indonesian text so that those of us who don't speak English understand, because we really like your video. Thank you

[@tonybranton]

At higher speeds the skirt is not in the slip stream and can’t have the stabilizing effect it does at slower speeds. The badminton design of the diabolo loses its trailing effect as the slip stream comes together further rearwards at higher velocities. For most of my experience 830 fps and under saves a lot of trouble. Also as the pellet falls and gains downward speed more resistance is exerted on the bottom rear of the skirt and shot too fast this would be a possible cause of the buffeting destabilization. The pellet falls at an ever increasing downward speed creating an ever increasing side thrust on the skirt however the side thrust on the skirt from underneath is interrupted unevenly when the velocity is higher and this could be very destabilizing. As you know at subsonic velocities the most efficient tail is a boat tail. Just the opposite of the skirt. It’s obvious that the skirt is designed for speeds well below transonic. The diabolo having been designed to be self righting in smooth bore barrels and I agree the less twist the better but, how to have any benefit of spin when it falls off to no benefit. We’re pushing boundaries

[@DevAirRifle]

Josz gandos👍👍

[@royweatherford64]

I know this is off the subject a little but what is the benefits of a polygon barrel . I recently purchased a sk19 and I’ve heard the polygon barrels are good but is there something that stands out about them ?

[@crawford323]

What would be the difference in stabilizing a .22 short or some other lower velocity powder cartridge and an air pressure launched projectiles?

[@mh369]

wow, thanks for sharing such valuable Infos!!! you saved me a ton of time and money...now i know what to go for to get the desired accuracy

[@colliedogjoy]

Superb video Matt. Thanks. My limited experience of the phenomenon came shortly after watching an American talking about it - not Ted, but I forget who. My heavy pellets were corkscrewing at longer distances so I switched to a lighter pellet and the problem disappeared. My theory (or that of the American) was that my heavy pellets had insufficient spin for the speed they were travelling and the lighter pellets overcame the problem by going faster. This was shooting an HW100 .20 at around 11fpe, the heavy pellets were JSBs at 13.7grn and the lighter ones FTTs at 11.4. How great it would be if more slugs come out! I'd love an 11grn .20.. All the best.

[@ChrisHarris4U]

Good job Matt! It is a fascinating subject. As a benchrest shooter (6ppc over 100 and 200 yds) we look carefully for any indication that the bullet has passed through the paper out of perpendicular. When we see a bullet hole that is out of perfect symmetry we know for sure that load will not group. It is pretty neat that we can fire a single round and know that our load is right or wrong.

[@deletethis5489]

i think pellets need a boattail and a bearing surface like a bullet has.. pellets don't travel thru the barrel straight ,, they're already spiraling in the barrel.. they have to.. you only have the skirt end of the pellet to guide it and sometimes they're out of round too. if it's not perfectly square in relation to the barrel when it comes out the muzzle , guess what ,, one end of the pellet will lose air pressure and it will spiral or even tumble in it's travel. it's just like having an uneven crown.. put a pellet on the very edge of the muzzle with the skirt barely inside crookedly .. pull it out very slowly like opening a pop can so you can see the leak. it is simply a bad design. i wonder if the concept of pellets was to reduce resistance ?

[@donham512]

what about slow (600 fps ) speed spiraling ... see hunter one video ...

[@muhammadmushtaqhunter4248]

Good work

[@crawford323]

Two different paths of evolution trying to solve similar problems. I expect something between the two worlds will be the solution.