What Even Is An RPG Anymore?

What happened to the phrase "RPG"? When did we suddenly start attributing the phrase to what feels like 50% of modern games? What even is an RPG anymore? Should I let the robot in Fallout: New Vegas fist me? The answer to all these questions and more await you.
(I swear this video is not meant to be a Kingdom Hearts hit piece please don't hate me KH fans k thanks bye)
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[@jetsetradio28]

We should categorize Fire Emblem as TACTICAL ANIME CHESS

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

If Fire Emblem is anime, then so is something like Touhou. Which it is, just bear with me.

[@nyieshalinae831]

I'd say rock, paper, siccors chess.

[@robertharris6092]

@@theinvisibleskulk4563 well there's a literal fire emblem anime from the 90s.

[@MrReset94]

Well FE is a Tactical War Game, like Advance Wars for example

[@selap5951]

Nah, when it comes to the later titles especially, it's Tactical anime romance chess

[@darthxerxes5468]

Mw2 has an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) but it isn't an rpg

[@grantgarbour]

Before I knew what rpg stood for and saw an rpg in cod and found out it meant rocket propelled grendade. My confusion for what an rpg was hit max

[@sisyphus7931]

@@grantgarbour rpg actually stands for Ruchnoy Protivotankoviy Granatomyot

[@blackcatpirates8134]

@@sisyphus7931 Is this German or gibrish 😅

[@sisyphus7931]

@@blackcatpirates8134 Russian so like German viewed through a mirror

[@sonictrain1]

Missed opportunity

[@Sgt-Wolf]

"Is mayonnaise a RPG?"

[@juanrodriguez9971]

"No Patrick, mayonnaise isn't an RPG"

[@Sgt-Wolf]

@@juanrodriguez9971 *Puts hand up*

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@Sgt-Wolf "Horseradish is not an RPG either"

[@93003ayo]

One second, going to rpg maker. Gonna make mayonnaise an RPG

[@Sgt-Wolf]

@@93003ayo Yes do that.

[@SeruraRenge11]

I would just argue that JRPGs have evolved into their own thing entirely and it doesn't really matter if people say they aren't really RPGs because it's just been stated that they are and that isn't going to change.

[@Darkdarren12]

yeah, i think it's important to make a strong distinction between the two because they really are different genres with different aims. Western RPGs emphasize the player self-expression angle of TTRPGs while JRPGs are more interested in the long adventure, intraparty relationships, and character growth elements. There's a lot of cross-pollination and genre names can be confusing but they have very different design priorities.

[@urahara64360]

It's actually something I've thought about since I started playing Dungeons and Dragons. The Japanese variant of roleplaying games focus more on the story telling aspect of the game. It's an interesting divergent split once you notice it.

[@Hyperversum3]

In addition, it's technically wrong to consider "RPG" only something where you can creater your character from 0. It's plenty of TTRPG that arguably work even better when used for short adventures where you are given a character to ROLEplay and play even if you didn't create him. It's just a different approach to the whole thing.

[@Fuk99999]

They are RPGs. The thing people miss about RPG video games is that both the RPG and JRPG evolved from the same source.....tabletops. They just focused on different aspects. The main RPG concept for video games was influenced largely by the fundamental core of tabletops. That is, you build your own character, add any flair and personality yourself. The JRPG focused more on the other aspect. The idea of a group of friends, or *party*. With the latter being more preset because it's more like the game according to the DM rather than the game according to the player.

[@Hyperversum3]

@@Fuk99999 Even more than that, most JRPG kept at their core the extremely crunchy origins of older TTRPG and were popular for that, while WRPG tended to move towards less "math-heavy" gameplay. Hell, some of the most popular WRPGs in the last 20years barely have concepts of classes and turns

[@Fuk99999]

Modern Fire Emblem actually has less choice impact than older games. Characters dying in older games can directly impact support dialogue or even bar you from recruiting certain characters down the line

[@arnaul_de_lapras5853]

Fuk99999 i can’t agree with that. Despite the fact that you have mentioned in 3H just al the beginig you have to make a decicion wich influences a lot the game it self. A part from that you can personalize your team a lot, you can decide wich sutdents you want to fight with. Moreover the first FE games doesn’t allows you to change class as 3H does, now you can do basically what ever you want

[@robertharris6092]

@@arnaul_de_lapras5853 allowing you to retroactively change your decisions is a very Un-RPG mechanic. An RPG always makes you deal with the consequences of your choices.

[@arnaul_de_lapras5853]

@@robertharris6092 well maybe on occidental RPG but not on JRPG and pokemon-like games

[@AzumarillConGafasBv]

Actually no, if a unit die in your FE run, then nothing more happens, he just die and you can't use him anymore, and when you finish the game, the game spits you to the face your idiocy by telling you when he died. So you are pretty wrong.

[@robertharris6092]

@@arnaul_de_lapras5853 but JRPG arnt actual RPGs.

[@Fuk99999]

> Skyrim has a story it's want to tell you, so you can't kill these characters that are largely irrelevant to that story Skyrim didn't even have a good story in the first place lol

[@Robertedwinhouse38]

Skyrim’s story was good

[@Killicon93]

@@Robertedwinhouse38 Haha! I guess so. If you have really low standards.

[@isaaclong6085]

@@Robertedwinhouse38 What other games have you played? Please, even hardcore skyrim players agree the story is dreadful

[@Robertedwinhouse38]

Isucc Long there’s a difference between hardcore Skyrim players and elder scrolls enthusiasts. I am an elder scrolls enthusiast and thought it was nearly perfect. And a great setup for the next title.

[@cactusmann5542]

@@jumongmoves6508 Blabla bla"generic obsidian shill screeching"

[@mrred773]

I don't feel the need to replay Skyrim, but New Vegas has a lot to offer even if you choose the same decisions, because it gives you more options for build, to become the person your character acts as and aspires to be, both in gameplay and dialogue

[@thehorsefromGOTs8]

"they're supposed to represent the game's 2 main factions but they're both more or less the same guy" so an accurate representation of the game's 2 main factions then?

[@LightSev]

Fallout New Vegas is such an amazing game. Subsequently, it’s set my expectations crazy high. To this day I haven't found a single RPG that I have enjoyed as much as New Vegas.

[@fangerzstanky]

Divinity original sin 2?

[@GuyOnAChair]

Ditto, New Vegas was really great in spite of it's shit engine and some almost too ugly visuals aside.

[@user-ru4kb2ri1b]

morrowind

[@elijahjohnson1952]

16:00 his first sin was playing through the main quest of a elder scrolls game

[@velcro4836]

Lmaooo, Morrowind's isn't that bad compared to Skyrim's for instance but the level of tedium in those main quests is excessive

[@blackjack5167]

@@velcro4836 oblivion is pretty decent

[@heatsink47]

Oblivion has pretty good quest

[@vancodling4223]

Really nice to hear some love for Pokemon Colosseum's soundtrack at minute 6.

[@alexdiaz3311]

Jumped right into the comments when I noticed the music.

[@alexdiaz3311]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJixiYiJrriNbac

[@dragonhold4]

Nintendo desperately needs to revisit this series. > sure, dumb the franchise down with Go, Let's Go, and S&S, but at least provide something more through spinoffs.

[@BigStupidJellyfish3]

This is the first time I’ve heard that music since I finished that game at release, I guess it’s a compliment I could tell it was from Colosseum in just a few seconds.

[@adriangutierrez7686]

Pyrite town!

[@vincentbatten4686]

I don't mean to be that guy, but Fire Emblem: Three Houses meets your criteria to be classified as an RPG. I mean it's fine if you don't like it, but based of your own criteria it meets the qualifications.

[@kenjidev576]

How? You customize a character but that's it. No decissions to be made. ...is level up still rnd? >.>

[@hereIAm604]

@@kenjidev576 You can literally choose which path of the story you want to take. Specially in the last two main entrys of the series. You can choose wether you want to recruit certain units, or just kill them of. You can also choose to build up relationships between you and other units, or between the units, which affects their effectiveness in battle and the future of said units after the game ends.

[@Ocean5ix]

@@kenjidev576 Fudj is just fooled by "how much freedom" a game gives him. Either all of these games are RPG or none of them are. His biggest argument in this video is Fallout New Vegas, yet you're playing a character with a background, a motivation towards his goal, the number of quests in the game is big but limited, the dialog options are limited. You can keep going down the rabbit role and you'll find out that what RPG once meant was "limitless role play", that's pretty much it. In tabletop RPGs the story is being created and the characters being acted as you play the game. You can do anything you want, it's up to your imagination as long as the dungeon master can adapt and shape the story around it. Only table top RPGs can do that, it's literally the only media. I personally rather accept the term as it's being used in the last few decades than to make it exclusive to table top RPGs. But that's the kind of debate where an argument like: "X electronic RPG isn't an RPG but Y Electronic RPG is" end up being hypocritical.

[@hepwo91222]

Fire Emblem is absolutely a RPG. Turn based combat, leveling, probabilities, stats, etc. It even has the fantasy elements so it's not even trying to be anything other than a RPG. Some will call it a strategy game, yeah, I guess, but everything in it screams RPG.

[@Sheogoratful]

Are your actions relevant in the world of the game? Can you actually choose? Ask to yourself and you will understand

[@TheL0rd0fSpace]

I'll be honest: I think in the Elder Scrolls games where you start as a prisoner getting freedom one way or another, you're meant to decide for yourself why you were originally arrested. They're just leaving a blank slate for you to decide your character's backstory with

[@kenjidev576]

Makes it hard to side with the imperials if I was arrested wrongfully.

[@hashbrownslinging-slasher872]

KenjiDev They should have had you been caught by some other faction and, instead of having alduin disrupt things, have a stormcloak and imperial skirmish break things up on the way to your execution. That way, it’s be more neutral. Would probably be difficult to program, but ah well.

[@goolabbolshevish1t651]

Sadly since morrowind there is no more real choice in how you go about doing things and since oblivion there is no more real faction system (you can be head of everything) and since oblivion there is also no more stat system so you can be amazing at everything at once (especially since weapon and armor types as of skyrim are like 1/4 what they were in older games)

[@MoeHasubandoAbsolver]

The thesis of this video uses a really modern understanding of "role playing" that's like, 20 years old tops. In the olden times, rpgs were just tabletop war games where you only controlled your commander instead of an entire force. So saying "you have to be able to rp in an rpg" is a very new idea and runs almost counter to what the rpgs of old were: turn based tactics games. Fire Emblem is actually incredibly close to an old-school rpg.

[@knightshade2654]

Definitely. I would also argue that it is almost impossible to "role-play" in RPGs, with decisions being closer to flipping to a certain page in a CYOA book. To me, a rough definition for an RPG is a game where your power is determined by the build of a character.

[@mayorofcoolsville1102]

Personally, I see these games as prioritizing one aspect of the average RPG experience, and taking different portions from the others. Pokemon takes the wild encounters and companion aspect of an RPG and takes them up to 11, while putting customization, travel, and story control to 0. Fallout New Vegas would be what I call a "Character RPG", an RPG that emphasis the "Role" in Role-play, and specifically tries to make an experience based on the player making a character and living out what their life would be like if they existed in the world the developer made. Basically, I feel more comfortable using "RPG" as just "A game where numbers are important and stuff" but have many branches of this genre that all stem from focusing one one or two aspects of what usually makes up an RPG. So, for example: Pokemon would be a "Monster Catcher RPG" since there are other games like Shin Megami Tensei that also focus on wild encounters, and Final Fantasy would be a "Classic Video Game RPG" because it's based on classic limitations on what games could do and has built on those limitations since. I know it would be way too confusing for most people to have all these sub-genres, but for me it makes more sense.

[@Tethloach1]

pokemon is a monster catcher/ monster battle game it fits many categories. it makes sense to everyone but it is faster to just say RPG the umbrella term. the other umbrella term video game to highlight the activity being done. convenience vs accuracy. If a person wants to go in depth then accuracy will matter more and more but if a person wants to get the message across RPG/convenience will be faster. Pokemon= monster battle, monster etc. adventure role playing, many sub categories too many to list. JRPG also works well.

[@WasLilChrisnowbigish]

Pokemon is babys first JRPG

[@hashbrownslinging-slasher872]

Actually, I’d say the customization is Pokemon is stronger than in most other RPGs, in the sense of movesets and builds. Maybe even the later games’ appearance, if you want to be generous as to what is regarded as customization.

[@engel2583]

When I first started this video I wasnt really interested in the topic, but then all of a sudden the video is ending good job on editing and the voice-over, I loved the comedy spread throughout especially at the end with subbing keep it up man

[@LadyDoomsinger]

RPG is my favorite genre of games, but I can't even use the tag to search for RPGs when I browse, because my search results are saturated with games that are decidedly not RPGs.

[@fisherdotogg]

So what you're describing sounds very much like a western RPG. wRPGs tend to play a little more like D&D in that you're a "you" character and you play through your own experience within the setting. Contrast with jRPGs which are often more narrowly focused and have you inhabiting an existing character. How much this character you control might be their own person varies, but you will generally be allowed to perform actions as you see fit in their shoes while the game justifies this around you. Ideally these decisions you make as these characters do affect things and even divert you to a different story path, but as jRGPs are more narrowly focused, they will usually have fewer significant story branches and most of the "bad" ones will just end- typically long before the true/most ideal ending.

[@andrewvalentine5347]

I understand that JRPGs are a different genre entirely than their Western counterparts, but I think it's not quite right to dismiss claims that some aren't RPGs. There are absolutely JRPGs that don't have any role-playing at all, where your actions aren't influential on the world at all (MOTHER comes to mind here). I think it's fair to question if calling those games "RPGs" is proper, because they miss some of the essentials of the genre. That might mean that we'll redefine JRPG or create a new category when there are games historians, but until then, it's a fair discussion

[@fisherdotogg]

@@andrewvalentine5347 My guess as to why they're called role-playing games when you don't get to role-play yourself like we seem to expect in the west is that...well with traditional jRPGs, what else do you call them? They don't offer any other systems that would merit a different genre title. As Fudj said, you play as a character and this perform their role in any game, so bareft of any other defining aspect to name the genre for, this became Role Playing Game.

[@andrewvalentine5347]

@@fisherdotogg My understanding of the history of the JRPG is that they were originally explicitly modeled on their Western counterparts in the late 80s and stayed decently similar until the mid-90s. The problem as I see it is that they've developed into something different than they were that eschews most of the actual role-playing. It could be that JRPG describes a specific enough genre that is distinct from Western-style RPGs to the point where the name being a relic doesn't matter (Dark Souls seems to suggest this since it's a Japanese RPG that never gets called a JRPG), in which case this isn't a super important discussion

[@fisherdotogg]

@@andrewvalentine5347 Yeah, they're just different genres now that diverged from a common point in history. As far as I could glean from the video, it felt like Fudj acknowledged that jRPGs existed but A) could not define them, B) did not address them, and C) failed to recognise or even bring up the concept of a wRPG which was precisely what he argued an RPG was supposed to be. Honestly, both are valid genres, he just seems confused by the similar names despite seeming to be sooooort of aware of a distinction.

[@whitejayz4655]

Weeb

[@Omega97DX]

This video is exactly what I had on my mind recently.

[@Deadlyish]

Great video exploring your definition. I think some of the difficulty in defining RPG or any modern genre comes from the issue of them typically involving multiple mechanics which may or may not be present to a greater or lesser extent in any particular game. I'd go for a more flexible definition that isn't a strict binary of RPG/not, but recognises some games have more RPG elements than others, and that games that have a higher number of these elements and utilise them to a greater effect are more accurately described as RPGs.

[@metawarp7446]

Good point. Also calling Kingdom Hearts an action-adventure game with RPG style gameplay mechanics might be accurate, but too long. And calling it just an action-adventure game doesn't describe the game well. I'd go with a system that isn't really super descriptive, but I think is a step to the right direction: The genre of RPG is divided into the genres of _Unfixed story role-playing game_ and _Fixed story role-playing game._ (URPG and FRPG) Kingdom Hearts would be a _fixed story action role-playing game,_ FARPG. Fallout 4 and Skyrim would be URPGs. After thinking about it, surprisingly I'd say with pretty much all RPGs it's pretty easy to figure out which genre it fits in. That's not too bad, right?

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@metawarp7446 calling Kingdom Hearts a action adventure game kinda does describe it well as there is action and adventure though that is a catch all term then it turns into "What is a action adventure?" other than "What is a RPG?"

[@lukeschwartz3291]

20 minutes of a man not understanding that there's a difference between "I'm role playing a character I create" and "I'm role playing a character someone else created."

[@buildinasentry1046]

Yes but then arent all games where you control a character a Role playing game? it becomes very muddied. I understand where this guy is coming from, that being traditional pen and paper RPGS. Because if its not based around games like Dungeons and dragons and its more broad, then almost every game in existence can be put into the RPG box

[@templariox32]

Yea, that exist But playing a character per se isnt roleplay. No, im not roleplaying cloud He already exists I dont have any menaingful.way of shaping his personality by here on now nor to take meaningful decisions with him that will shape the world around me. This isnt roleplaying. Its playing a game

[@oceanman_8370]

Minecraft story mode is an rpg 1 Customise your character(Even if it's limited) 2 Choices that effect the plot snd game play 3 Has good replayability

[@frenchguitarguy1091]

So by that logic FIFA is RPG, you can create a player, customise and train them and affect the game. My point is that such reductions are useless as nearly anything can fit this model

[@fangerzstanky]

@UserName how did you misread the comment so bad?

[@AdrianArmbruster]

Okay, I just have to pause when you discount every Japanese RPG in existence for not having Mass-Effect style 'character choice' moments. There's a pretty clear line of descent from D&D to the early final fantasies. They've taken a turn to static stories because Japanese companies in general tend to be dominated by some auteur-types who are prone to navel gazing and pretentious philosophy. They have all the stats, most of the gameplay conventions, but it's not descended from the design ethos at freakin' 90s-era Interplay so it doesn't count? Is, uh, that what we're going with here?

[@randombloke165]

Brandon Choate He is not discounting them, he is saying that they are distinctly different sub genres. There is a clear line of descent from Super Mario Bros. to Super Mario 64, but that does not mean that 64 is a 2d platformer, nor does it mean that SMB is a 3D platformer. I would personally consider JRPGS and WRPG as two distinctly different sub genres in the overarching RPG genre.

[@foodflare9870]

@@randombloke165 The point of op is more that the video creator was saying that no JRPG should count as an RPG because there's not really character/story customization.

[@randombloke165]

foodflare Well, I see his point though. The term RPG is derived from games where you can role play and influence the world around you in meaningful ways, whereas JRPGS don’t allow you to do that for the most part. Acknowledging that JRPGS stray away from the original definition of an RPG is not discounting their existence, it is merely pointing out a truth. Whether a game like Mother 3 for instance is or is not an RPG doesn’t make it less of an excellent game, so I don’t see how saying that it really doesn’t have the most important mechanic of a traditional RPG, role playing, discounts its existence.

[@notalpharius4553]

@@zombieslayer095 They definitely have more in common yeah.

[@DMIwriter]

I have yet to play Fallout New Vegas, but I hear it get acclaimed for being a true RPG a lot. But as for pure RPGs, the last one I can remember was Morrowind

[@MrBorderlands123]

Divinity: Original Sin II, Disco Elysium, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and UnderRail have all released in the past few years and all very much fit the RPG design ethos of the classics from the 90s/early 00s.

[@DMIwriter]

@@MrBorderlands123 I'll have to check some of these out. I have really been wanting to play Kingdom Come for a while

[@finnorourke4861]

Devynn Hageman New Vegas is great, I’m personally disconnected from it because I spent a fuck ton of time in Skyrim and then immediately jumped into new Vegas, but I found it much better. Skyrim is good for a first time playthrough, I was amazed at everything. But it’s very limited. I don’t want to redo what I previously did with the slightest deviation. New Vegas doesn’t care what you do, it rewards good AND bad actions through the faction fame system. Great game, early game is unforgiving. Remember to quick save when exploring. Play it.

[@goolabbolshevish1t651]

@@DMIwriter divinity original sin 1 and 2, as well as pathfinder kingmaker and new Vegas are immensely better with mods, I'd suggest giving the nexus a look for mods if you ever pick any of them up.

[@DMIwriter]

@BHowardify It's on my list once I'm done with my current play throughs in other games. I'm super looking forward to it!

[@gamergamer6967]

How does an in depth, polished video like this only have 2k views? :O. Well, for what it's worth. Your work in this video earned my thumbs up (w/e that's worth). Your philosophy has earned a subscription from me, and your style and polish has earned tick on that notification bell. I can see from the other comments, that I am just a fish in the sea of the people who understand how underrated this is, but I figured I'd toss my two coins in there, especially if it moves you in creating more. Cheers!

[@chevyjackson605]

It's funny how RPG has no relationship to the style of combat. We now add that the style of combat and slap RPG on it because of the progression like fire emblem is a SRPG (strategic) His definition captures the ideas of Western RPGs perfectly. Your playing a character you create to insert into the world. While Japanese RPGs your 'helping' a character progress through their own stories.

[@Arismory]

Rpg=choices Choices can be in the gameplay as well as the dialog options.

[@knightshade2654]

@@Arismory That would make Animal Crossing, Call of Duty, and countless visual novels RPGs.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@knightshade2654 i mean isn't any simulation game a rpg? you make a character and do whatever you feel like when it comes to stuff like animal crossing or minecraft. Though Visual novels are not games in the first place they are just interactive books

[@mrcoolguy32]

@@knightshade2654 animal crossing is a sim with not a lot of story, call of duty is a fps and visual novels aren’t even games

[@eazybuxafew]

A lot of action adventure games get mis characterized as RPGs these days. Definitely agree with characterization

[@MinoriGaming]

Confusing series: Dragon Quest. In ever game besides 9 and 10, your protagonist's look is entirely predetermined, however, the stories are always consistent in every game in the series. The protagonist is always completely silent besides the ending of DQ1 and your childhood flashback in DQ11. You are simultaneously completely in control of your character, able to imprint yourself upon them, but the end goal is always the same.

[@David_Alvarez77]

Interesting video! You definitely do a good job at isolating what is essential in the rpg away from the surface or peripheral elements that so often obscure the issue.

[@SamWatsonTV]

Hey man, I've been binging your videos. Great content! Now that I've complimented you, I'm gonna be an arse and point out you say 'less' a lot when you mean to say 'fewer' Ta bruh!

[@seraphsclaws2997]

These discussions are really interesting, your videos really do deserve much more views.

[@ChemistWeb]

Zelda and Pokemon are somewhat strange examples for RPGs, specifically with recent games: they make you follow the story, your role is already set and the world around you is very distinct in what you can and can’t do, but they give you a lot of options for customization and recent games have given you a ton more dialogue options will all kinds of NPCs rather than just “yes” or “no”.

[@thedualitysystem]

An RPG is a game that lets you customize your character's personality and make choices that affect the world and people around you. Therefore, The Sims is an RPG.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

I consider an rpg to be quite specific, a game where the roleplaying is a primary focus, specifically involving crpgs or games like the witcher. Similarly the only jrpgs i consider actual rpgs are the trails games and the megami tensei games because they have that role playing and choice emphasis.

[@Jegge_100]

I believe you don't quite understand the history of RPGs. Truth is there are two genres called RPGs developed independently. One is western RPG that have there roots in DnD which leads to a lot of player agency. Where as jRPGs were inspired by theater which leads to more involved character interactions and more focus on the main narrative, but less choice for the player.

[@codyrobinson8987]

Perhaps, but the amount of grey area that defines a games difference in being an RPG and a jRPG is abundant. while it might be tedious, we should find a way to more accurately categorize them. instead of using the term "role playing" we can cut it down even further, so that people know exactly what type it is. For example: Fire emblem three houses. The game itself is classified as a "Tactical role playing game" which is both correct and incorrect. while the stats and class systems can be changed, the story is set on a guided path from the very start. on another note, games like Skyrim let you not only change classes and upgrade stats, but doesn't guide you along a story, instead the story is left up to the player to decide whether or not they wish to complete it. You would rather join a group of assassins than kill Alduin? go for it. want to be a criminal in the streets of Whiterun? your choice. but even with set quests, every experience is drastically different. (except Nazeem, I have yet to meet someone who doesn't hate his guts.) THAT is what puts the "role playing" in an rpg. so for something like fire emblem three houses... Maybe a Tactical Character narrative? I could probably think of a better name but im typing this on the spot. Sorry that my reply went from an opinion to a rant, but as I was typing I had more and more ideas coming to mind. I get that making a sub-genre for all these different types of games would be difficult, but just sticking RPG onto something because "numbers and slight customization" both over saturates a genre that many people love, and takes away from the overall description a game could have.

[@acw215079]

The original Dragon Quest (the OG JRPG) was inspired by two western RPGS, Ultima and Wizardry. Then as time went on, the Dragon Quest games got more story, but the options for more story paths were limited by the hardware the games were on. As time went on, stories could get bigger and games got longer, you get games like Final Fantasy 4 and Dragon Quest 5 with these long elaborate stories. The stories themselves definitely had influence from theater but the fact is that the linear stories themselves began out of technical limitations of the time. EDIT: Regarding Ultima, the granddaddy of western RPGs, or Wasteland, the precursor to Fallout, those games were more the exception, with series focused on dungeon crawling (like Wizardry and Dunjonquest) serving as the rule. Even the licensed D&D games were dungeon crawlers. It wasn't until about the late 90's where games like Fallout and Baldur's Gate start appearing and becoming what people call "true RPGs".

[@Jegge_100]

@@codyrobinson8987 np rant all you want but I must ask doesn't FE three houses totally let you choose different routes to play? I haven't played myself but that what i have understood.

[@ExatedWarrior]

Dude, the history of the term RPG predates the development of the distinction between JRPG and WRPG. Those distinctions came pretty late into the lifetime of RPGs unless you only consider video game RPGs (which would be a mistake in my opinion). It basically came about from war games, but instead of controlling whole units you control one person. Players eventually started giving personalities and story arcs to their characters which eventually lead to how we think of the tabletop RPG.

[@randombloke165]

Jesse Alapiha I only played a few hours, but it appeared to me like the only choice you got was which group you chose at the beginning. The only difference between each group is the characters in each group. The choice isn’t as meaningful as the choice between, say, the choice you get In FONV.

[@RevDungeonMaster]

It’s almost like taxonomy is a complex art of categorization that at its core is subjective and arbitrary. RPG is like the “family” or even “order” levels of classification, with 2-3 subcategories following, leading to a wide variety of games that can still be considered RPG’s - from the linear, turn-based JRPGs to the open-world sandboxes of Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and the Witcher.

[@evanwilkins2498]

I disagree on the point that you need to be able to customize the character in order for a game to be an rpg. I think as long as you can actually play the role then you are role playing. For example Geralt from the witcher games. You can play several different "roles" in that you can be like evil geralt or good geralt but you have to be geralt. It's the same principle as pre made character sheets for a ttrpg. As long as you can actively carry out what you think the character would do I would consider it roleplaying

[@zanyraccoon6361]

I'd go further and argue that Geralt shares a lot in common with the Courier from New Vegas. Both have a backstory and predetermined goal to work towards while everything else along the way, including the type of person the MC is are chosen by the player. Only major difference is New Vegas allows one to customize their looks while Witcher doesn't. Not really that big of a deal overall IMO.

[@kenjidev576]

Does playing a role incorporate the player's decision within the sepctrum of logical actions the role taken provides? Should the role itself force a certain path which is logical for them? Or does it stop to be "Playing" at that point?

[@evanwilkins2498]

@@kenjidev576 I think player choice is necessary. If the player is forced out of an option I believe that they are no longer playing the role and the developer is doing it for them.

[@evanwilkins2498]

@@zanyraccoon6361 Yeah exactly. His definition wouldn't include Geralt when the two are so similar and when the witcher for example is a very obvious rpg. My issue was that his definition made the genre too narrow. (Even though his point was to narrow the genre.)

[@angryyellowduck799]

@evan That's the point tho. No amount of narrative choices will change the fact that you're playing as a goddamn witcher. This is even more egregious than skyrim, because at least here the fact that you're a dragonborn won't eve matter unless you interact with the main quest. In skyrim you can choose to be anything with anykind of backstory (with mods, even when the world doesn't always react appripriately). In witcher 3, you're always a fucking witcher tasked with hunting monsters and trying to find some lost princess. You can't ever be someone else. This fact alone is why i find it baffling that people think wircher 3 is more of an rpg than any of bethesda's games.

[@nathanlevesque7812]

Roleplaying = play with your role =/= playing a role Roleplaying game = roleplaying gameplay "Roleplaying mechanics" = stuff associated with early RPGs, that is often just cosmetic and otherwise only conditionally achieves roleplaying gameplay

[@noticeme6412]

the Shin Megami Tensei games would be considered RPG games because there is more than just levels and stuff, SMT allows you to make decisions that affect who is in your party and what items you get. the choices you make alters the ending you get(like what missions you do affects the SMT world).

[@mega7758]

Skyrim gets its replayability from its many many many mods that can fix any problem you may have with the game

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

Ah yes Skyrim the Glock of Video games

[@CatherinePuce]

I think that if you want that people stop to call everything a RPG. You have to build new categories. Like the J-RPG, in which category you put Final Fantasy, pokemon or disgaea. RPG is used as a throw it all because nobody took time to well define comprehensive categories.

[@Demonskunk]

In all of the Elder Scrolls games, the specific reason for your imprisonment (or execution in skyrim's case) is left up to you to decide. I think.

[@xeibei4804]

Nah in skyrim it was said you tried to cross the border and got caught while doing that

[@mr.fantastic6568]

@@xeibei4804 but the game never explained why you try to cross the border

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@mr.fantastic6568 I don't remember if it was cross the boarder into Skyrim or out of it

[@BaraTheVeggie]

Got this in my recommended, glad I did. Refresing take on it m8, great content.

[@elijahdavila3684]

This video kind of feels like it's asking why any game that involves combat isn't considered a fighting game.

[@jerrisatyourwindow]

I feel like the answer to that is obvious but I’m struggling to find the words

[@mrgodguy8047]

Mr Sakurai It’s probably because you think that it’s just common sense.

[@anthonynorman7545]

I think it's saying that not all games with fighting are fighting games. Since he says that Kingdom hearts isn't an rpg despite having numbers and level ups

[@ink4852]

That's exactly the opposite of what the video is trying to say. Just like we shouldn't consider everything with stats, damage numbers, and level ups to be an RPG; we shouldn't consider everything with any kind of violence whatsoever to be a fighting game.

[@surprisedchar2458]

Mr Sakurai it’s easy. A fighting game is centered on the fights themselves, most often in arenas of some type, and usually only one on one fights. A game with combat is not a fighting game, but a game with fighting. It’s like squares being rectangles but rectangles not always being squares.

[@MrDavidCollins]

I saw the extreme tag footage and my brain stopped and I couldn't absorb the rest of the video I'm sorry WHAT WAS THAT

[@CrashernoidTheYoutuber]

I loved this. Saw it from your reddit post on SYTC. Amazing content though, deserves more views. Love bethesda games like the fallout series and skyrim. Keep up the good work

[@NocturnalFudj]

Thanks so much! I'm glad you liked it! :)

[@kalvinhamilton]

love that underdome theme in background & great video

[@MelodyTCG]

I keep finding myself coming back to this video. It brings up good points

[@cloudmane4159]

Agree with most of this but I still play Skyrim today and I’ve created dozens of different and unique characters. That being said, decisions apart from your look, your playstyle and the order in which you tackle quests, don’t usually matter or truly impact the game differently.

[@Bugga-Ray-Dudley]

Oh my god Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness music. A man of excellent taste

[@LongfellowLP]

I was trying to think of other examples where the strict features of the genre are not how people popularly categorize the game and came up with Banjo-Kazooie vs. Ocarina of Time, which are of course quite different games, but they share core 3D movement, combat, and general interactivity with the world and characters, and there's a case to be made that they are more similar to each other than Banjo-Kazooie to Crash Bandicoot or Ocarina to, say, GTA3. Probably unfair comparisons. I dunno. I feel like what people actually mean when they talk about genre isn't mechanics, but the game "lineage"-the answer to the question, "which 80s game is this game's ancestor?" Banjo-Kazooie's ancestor is Super Mario Bros., OoT's is Zelda 1. In that vein, so-called JRPGs trace to Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, whereas so-called Western RPGs trace to games like Ultima and Wizardry, and both genres are ultimately based on D&D and other Tabletop RPGs, which is where they got their name. But just as with a family, two grandchildren might look and act differently from each other, and two unrelated people might be very similar.

[@tadladapate3064]

The zelda serie is more of an adventure than an rpg. Not an adventure game in the sense of the old point and click adventure. Zelda is its own genre in itself.

[@srspanksalot4501]

How can you play the P5 theme for so long without talking about it

[@teasdaye]

This is kind of pedantic in the sense that it's prioritizing the literal reading of the term over its actual, real-life usage. Basically prescriptivism over descriptivism. It's like criticizing roguelikes for not being visually similar to Rogue, or metroidvanias for being neither Metroid nor Castlevania. RPG, among other usages, is the name of a certain genre of video games, and whether or not you do what would be considered in a strict sense "role-playing" is not exactly relevant/necessary and hasn't been since the days of the NES, if not earlier. The genre is instead characterized typically by gameplay-related or mechanical similarities rather than the player's ability to affect the main character and/or the plot. Whether that genre should be called RPG or not is actually a separate discussion, but that's the name it has had for several decades so good luck arguing against it now. The word metroidvania hasn't been showing any signs of going away either, and it's even less accurate. Splitting the term into JRPG and WRPG does help separate two different kinds of RPG mechanics, but in reality that's not really very helpful since it relies not only on stereotypical expectations of how Japanese vs Western RPGs operate, but even if an American company were to make a Final Fantasy clone, you'd get people saying how it's not really a JRPG because it's not technically from Japan and it's not a WRPG either because it doesn't fit under the expected mechanics of one.

[@Tethloach1]

well said completely agree. How the term is used is what defines the term great. the guy in the video likes the traditional term that has not been in use for like 40 years, terms change and that's why it is not worth the effort to use the older term RPG instead the newer term RPG.

[@joshwoodferd5737]

@@Tethloach1 Okay, but whats the point in having a term that doesn't mean anything. If it evolves from a term that at one point had a defined meaning, and has now devolved into "you have some degree of character customization", whats the point in the term even being used anymore?

[@wibblemu9]

@@joshwoodferd5737 Words have no intrinsic meaning, and the usages of words has always evolved and everyone knows this, because if you ever tried to read Shakespeare you know that to understand what's being said, you actually need to know how the words were used at that time. I'll reiterate, words have no intrinsic meanings, only usages.

[@joeygreathouse3029]

@@wibblemu9 words retain the meaning intended by the person who said them, they have meaning but not perceived meaning, intended meaning. This is why SJWs struggle with language - they ignore intended meaning for perceived meaning.

[@microqueen69]

He does admit that the discussion is more opinion based than a descriptive dissection of various RPGs that have existed to this point. You can certainly expand on the meaning of "role" in role-playing game. You can think of CoD games as RPG because you are playing in the role of a soldier. It's a linear experience and you can't do much to change the outcome of the game. One could think of Saints Row as RPG because you are playing in the role of a psychopathic gang leader and it's a sandbox game where you can do whatever you want. You are usually presented with a binary choice when there is the option to choose but then again I don't feel that those decisions are all that impactful. Mount & Blade can certainly be regarded as RPG because not only does it let you create your character, not only is it a sandbox experience, it also lets you make lasting decisions that will affect your game in the long run. What this video demonstrates is that some titles have stronger claim to the title rather than diminish the RPGs that don't. I find myself thinking that a game is RPG as soon as I see numbers, a number of different mechanics one can toy around with in the game such as crafting, combat, dialogue to name a few, equipping gear, inventory management and so on.

[@hathemtarbah6628]

My first RPG was Dragon Age: Origins and is still one of my favourite games ever just because of how much I can affect the world and the characters

[@cornobulousballs7666]

I would consider Pokemon to be an RPG if you think of it this way: your Pokemon team is like your character in other RPGs. In the way you might tailor your character to be stealthy, use brute force, or magic, you pick your Pokemon team and their abilities based on your play style - do you have a team with Poison and Psychic types to mess up your opponents stats, or have Fighting and Rock types for a more physical approach? Even as you said, doing a play through using a monotype team, or avoiding certain trainers or Gyms, doing stuff in your own time, or just the fact each battle will be different depending on which Pokemon you have in your party. I don't know how anyone couldn't consider Pokemon (more specifically the early games) to be RPGs in this sense!

[@FlyingWaffleZombie]

That’s like saying Call of Duty multiplayer is considered an RPG because you can chose your load out

[@mrforgetable1]

This video does a good job of defining an RPG based on its literal meaning but I can't help but feel that it just... doesn't matter? Like, ok some games we call RPGs don't fit a literal definition of a role-playing game but so what? If say refer to something like an RPG with the intent to communicate that it has a story and the typical stats and magic and what have you and that's how most other people understand what the phrase RPG then why does an actual literal definition of role-playing game matter? I don't mean to be reductive, it's an interesting video, I guess I just don't understand the 'why'.

[@NocturnalFudj]

Well, why discuss anything, right? I just think it's a fun and interesting topic! It doesn't have to matter or even change anything imo, sometimes it's just fun to exchange ideas and opinions

[@mrforgetable1]

@@NocturnalFudj Yeah, it is an interesting topic for sure, like I said in my comment, I didn't want to come across as reductive, I suppose I just got the impression that video was building to reason or purpose and then it just ended which kinda caught me off guard.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@mrforgetable1 the reason is simple Humans like putting two and two together giving it a label and making it organized in a neat little box

[@antusFireNova]

Pokèmon is a different jaunra centrered around catching monsters, tho I forgot what it's called like Edit: ok actually it's a subjaunra of RPG

[@tristanneal9552]

Jesus this video is criminally underviewed. Came here from the Pokémon videos and I love this channel, hope you really blow up soon! I can say the algorithm recommended you to me at the very least

[@Slimjim8345]

I think that you put too much emphasis on the story of an RPG and disregard the mechanics too much. Yes just having numbers and levels doesn't make it an RPG, but the way you play makes it an RPG. In Fire Emblem Three Houses, you can have someone be a healer, someone else be a mage, and another person be an armor knight. Those characters are playing those roles, and you are not forced into that. You have the option to use those characters and the option to make them whatever you want. Going by your definition, every Final Fantasy game is not an RPG. You don't get a lot of story options and no multiple endings based off of those. You also don't get to craft your own backstory in any of those games.

[@JulianimeIsAmazing]

Correct, though, that's why those are "JRPG" which is part of the hassle, the rods RPG are being thrown around without their true meaning. It doesn't make a Final Fantasy or Fire Emblem game BAD to say they are not RPGs, if anything, it means that they're failing at marketing their games properly, because the person who played for example Dragon Age and didn't like it, but WOULD like Final Fantasy, might not pick up a FF game if they learn it's for some reason the same genre of a game as the one they didn't like. But the issue there is it's not a matter of a bad game vs a good game, like if someone liked Fallout but not Skyrim it's because of the game's flaws because they have the same genre. In the other case it's a problem of comparing apples to oranges and saying they're all apples.

[@Slimjim8345]

JulianimeIsAmazing I wasn’t trying to say the he was calling them bad, but those games are RPGs. And yes they are JRPGs, but JRPG is more of a sub genre as opposed to a different genre. It’s like turn based RPGs and action RPGs, they are both RPGs, just sub genres. In regards to your example, someone may not like Fallout and never end up playing Skyrim because they are both called RPGs, but they are different sub genres. Fallout being a post apocalyptic RPG, and Skyrim being a Fantasy RPG. Your post made me realize that the biggest problem with calling games RPGs isn’t that they aren’t that, but that it might be too broad of a genre to define games with.

[@JulianimeIsAmazing]

@@Slimjim8345 that's pretty much the core problem, but I think it STEMS from a poor allocation of genre definition. Because the setting an RPG takes place in doesn't make it deviate from whether or not it's an RPG, but the fundamental purpose the game has is what defines the RPG. Which still differentiates JRPGs from WRPGs in that, no matter what setting, sci-fi future, prehistoric, steam punk God too many fucking steam punk, medieval fantasy, an RPG's core purpose is to play a role. But in the case of a JRPG which I will refer to as "Storybook genre" from now on, probably, the purpose is explicitly to experience a narrative. And when a game is really well written, those JRPGs are amazing. But for example, I'm currently replaying FF13-2 because I just like it, a lot. It's not the best FF game ever, it has a bunch of issues, and there's nothing I can do that really changes anything at all. In fact, there are tropes to narrative-based games that have cliched "cutscene armor" or "plot armor" where you kick an enemy's ass in the game but the cutscene forces you to watch yourself be defeated to serve the narrative and I feel like that kind of forced agenda to make a player only see what you want them to see is a disservice to calling it an RPG, EVEN IF the story at large being told is a magnificent one, we are by nature curious and imaginative and we all wonder "what if that first time I met the main villain of the game while he makes a dramatic entrance, I shot him in the face? what if I teamed up with them just to betray them? what if I wanted to just not give a shit and go off and like investigate the main bad guy's personal history and bang his mum?" and obviously I intentionally made it get ridiculous because we can't cater to all the infinite possibilities of life, but it's nice when a game you expect to have agency over allows you to explore with your creativity and individual judgments more than just choosing black and white options and watching essentially the same story unfold but from two different sides.

[@Slimjim8345]

JulianimeIsAmazing this just takes me back to my original statement. I think you are neglecting the role playing in the gameplay and not just the story. You can role play as a tank or a healer. Also, if a game doesn’t have a whole lot of role playing in the story, that makes it not a good RPG then. But being a “bad” RPG doesn’t make it not a RPG.

[@Hyperversum3]

Here there is even a deeper issue. The oldest TTRPG people remember is D&D, which was originally about dungeon delving fucks in search of treasure and things to bash their axes on. It came from a wargame and was all about dungeoneering. The "Roleplay" wasn't about playing your character in a story but much more about playing their *role* in the group while adventuring. Obviously, this changed in little time and overaching narrative became the classical structure, but this doesn't change the origin of the term. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were RPGs because they portrayed that aspect of TTRPG, what we call "crunch", as opposed to the fluff. So yeah, originally TTRPGs were pretty different from how we play them today, and as such the games portraying them were also different. Nowadays some games try to reproduce what is "Roleplaying", such as Divinity (the closest thing to a D&D game on its own tbh) while most games just use the term to describe their gameplay, which is developed from older games in the genre

[@carlitobrigante4845]

I think the question then is, should RPG be a genre? Of just a characteristic? Because the turn-based combat system, stats, levels, etc. may be more defining than the ability to make decissions

[@TalonTheRetroGamer]

Good video. I think Fallout and Fallout 2 demonstrated how you can tell a mainline quest story with only one ending (Master's ending in F1 is more of a game over) and still give your player's freedom in how they get there. It's not quite as open-ended as F:NV (what if I want to play a character that really believes in The Unity/The Enclave?), but at least it doesn't restrict killing certain characters because they're "too important" like in Bethesda RPGs.

[@keldaoldman4826]

Would ACNH be an rpg by this logic?

[@aiden_macleod]

It's gotten so bad that games that are actual RPGs are called NON-RPGs because they don't qualify as something that ISN'T an RPG. Really boggles my mind how so many people who only THINK they know what an RPG is, actually think they know what an RPG is. Does that make sense to anyone besides me?

[@shakmp4]

Saw your post in reddit good video!

[@nikolayveselinov906]

5:33 you just earned a new subscriber, you magnificent bastard

[@ButlersTraining]

Very interesting as Razbuten has a video about the topic in a similar matter, and as a far as i remember, he actually puts it the exact other way

[@danhowdle9508]

I loved this video. Great fun. Well done.

[@thecops2939]

Great takes, fully agree with you here. I do wish you had brought up games like Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1 & 2, or Divinity, these are great examples of RPGs and I think they coincide with your definitions. They're often called CRPGs, and I think how closely newer "RPGs" are to them the closer they are to being genuine RPGs. I think New Vegas is a perfect example, it's closer to feeling like Fallout 1&2 than anything Bethesda has ever developed. Staying true to these roots is what defines a true RPG to me. Maybe we should look at games like Skyrim or Fallout 3 as a different subgenre of RPG. Maybe they should be called "Light RPGs" or something - they're light on critical RPG elements but clearly take inspiration from them.

[@Rogther]

I think genres today are more like tags. Thats why in steam every game has at least 5 genres. RPG now means the stats and not much else.

[@pablomadrid6962]

I think dismissing JRPGs is a major flaw with this video. You're focusing way too much on the classic western RPG, thus games like Pokémon and Kingdom Hearts do not fit your definition. They are RPGs, just not the kind of RPG you are familiar with. JRPGs are the crux of this issue, as the first few *big* Japanese RPGs (Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Megami Tensei, etc.) were loosely inspired by western RPGs, but evolved into a different thing entirely, which is where Pokémon, Kingdom Hearts and other games draw from. They are no longer drawing from the western RPG, they are drawing from the trendsetters of the late 80s. But they are still RPGs because those older games they are based on are considered RPGs as well.

[@remulaevergaze5342]

The main reason I dislike how RPG is used nowadays is because any time I hear the term RPG I have no idea what I'm getting into. Am I getting into a Witcher 3, Fallout 76, New Vegas, or Kingdom Hearts, just hearing RPG doesn't actually tell me anything useful. I feel the same way about the term MMO, I used to know what kind of game I was getting into if it was listed as an MMO, now if I go look up MMOs I'll find things like Destiny, Smite, and GTA Online. Call of Duty could probably be an MMO, I've found other team based shooters categorized as MMOs.

[@Icthyologist]

I find it interesting that the fist two examples he chose to use are Super Mario 64 and Kingdom Hearts. Because Tetsuya Nomura originally took inspiration from seeing Super Mario 64 to make a game with fully 3D platforming in it and only later did the idea to add RPG elements come into play as the whole Disney and Final Fantasy crossover was introduced. Thus, it would be totally accurate to say that Kingdom Hearts is an Action/Platformer with RPG elements.

[@SHAWNJX]

I love how you used Colosseum/ XD music

[@AndresLionheart]

It sounds to me like you have a bit of a bias towards Fallout New Vegas because it did things how you would like them to be. Sounds like me with the setting of an adventure being a fantasy world with swords and magic instead of technology. The term probably started with tabletop games and then got transfered to games like Final Fantasy with all the limitations of a console like the NES. From there it evolved into different things and it now basically represents having 1 or several characters you need to build the skills of to progress through a story. By this definition Pokemon would be considered an RPG. In other words, RPG is a broad term now. What you define as "RPG" in this video is what we now usually refer to as "WRPG".

[@mudkippu]

Totally. By his definition, none of those turn based RPGs before the open world sandbox with player choices are RPG games. Not Final Fantasy or even Super Mario RPG, which I don't really agree

[@cullanCM]

@@mudkippu but pokemon isnt an rpg you dont roleplay in that

[@elijahdavila3684]

@@cullanCM Woosh

[@Coolguy98765]

Skyrim's role playing come from everything you can do that's iutside the main story.

[@kenjidev576]

Questionable. Does Skyrim allow you to roleplay if nobody reacts to your roleplaying? Am I roleplaying any more of an assassin in Skyrim than in GTA V if I murder the innocent and only the guards/police show up - no consequences in the long run? (.a.k.a. roleplaying in my own head)

[@Doppe1ganger]

Such as? Every character can do everything outside the main quest, it's just a question of do it now, or do it later. There are no real choices to be made in Skyrim, and none affect the world or how the world sees you. The only "real rpg choice" you can make is what race to play, and solely because of the racial "once a day" powers, and even then half of these powers don't affect the way you play the game at all. Exactly what character can you play in Skyrim? A "master one handed" character? A "master archer" character? Even those are only temporary choices that solely affect combat, like playing a sniper or heavy gunner in call of duty. It's just a question of, how much time do i want to spend (how hard do i want to abuse terrible balancing exploits) to grind a skill up to max. Every character is virtually equally good at all skills at once, so you have 1 character. What other "choices" are there? The "gear" you wear. Every character can equip anything, and be as effective at is as any of the other characters, more so the differences in items are extremely minor or non existent. An iron sword does about the same damage as a dragonbone sword, when smith up. Heavy armor or light armor reaches the armor cap when smith up. Everyone can be a master smith and a master alchemist and a master enchanter at the same time, so there are no choices to be made there. The enchantments that are optimal are pretty clear cut, it doesn't require complex character building, and it's all interchangeable. How about the "standing stone" to use? Does it matter? Just click on the one you want to use and use it until you want to use another. None if them alter the gameplay in any significant or unique way anyways. How about the "deity you worship"? The choice to make is, do i want to spend a little gold to enjoy a small temporary statboost. The game doesn't acknowledge what deity you worship, whether you side with the empire while wearing stormcloak attire, an amulet of Talos and received a blessing of Talos at a shrine. The only "roleplaying" you can do in Skyrim is make pretend that you're roleplaying and tell yourself that the game cares. It's like playing with dolls. Mind you, i enjoy playing Skyrim a lot (tons of atmosphere, big world to explore in) but it's about as much a roleplaying game as GTA is.

[@hepwo91222]

Skyrim has real time combat, so it doesn't fall into turn or time based combat like the old school Dungeons&Dragons table top games that coined the term. So no, Skyrim is NOT a RPG.

[@perkypears]

i think RPGs need to be split into sub genres because DND Stat mechanics are one thing, and DND Choose Your Own Adventure is a separate thing, and people see one and say its an rpg when the roots of rpgs are in being both at the same time

[@matthewreese7710]

Thanks for introducing me to pro tag

[@zombieraddish]

I think some familiarity with tabletop RPGs is actually pretty necessary to figuring out this problem, subjective as it is. As someone who's played a bit of not only D&D but some more contemporary systems, the big distinguishing feature of RPGs from games in general (not just videogames) is systemized collaborative storytelling and choice, OVER skill and strategy- often (but not always) employing elements of chance. It's still ultimately a game rather than like, a no holds barred improv acting/writing session because it's systemized, and things like combat or social dice rolls introduce a certain amount of conflict and strategy which impact events, but broadly the emphasis is still moreso on the broad choices and story. Some tabletop games like World of Darkness (urban fantasy setting) go so far as to refer to the "game master" (the person who designs and runs the session as opposed to the players) as "the storyteller" for this reason. There are systems of varying complexity with all sorts of stats and settings, but the point is that the players are NOT just winning challenges. In fact for decades players often have derided certain other players as "munchkins" for playing too competitively, making beefy combat characters with no personality solely to kill monsters and gain EXP in the most boring game-breaking way possible (the saddest and most pointless thing a player can do, next to lying about dice rolls.) Keeping all of this in mind, while I think RPG is a flimsy and subjective (and often misleading) term, it is grossly overused. Evaluating game's basic principles like whether they prioritize choice over skill as a whole make the term relevant and useful as more and more games employ certain superficial elements like stats and character creation.

[@joshpeace2673]

Jrpgs to me should be called strategy novels they started as and still are a mix of visual novels and strategy games

[@toatrika2443]

a lot of modern "RPG"s seem more like video game fantasy novels, honestly. Sure, there might be character creation, but isn't that the same as imagining how the main character looks in a novel? For both, the focus is on the pre-set story. The only real difference is that you can do video-game-y things like fighting and trading items. Remove that and those games literally become visual novels, which then explains why JRPGs work so well. Crossing video game novels with visual novels can pretty much just be expected to work perfectly well. So yeah, I propose we create the genre of VGN (video game novels) and relocate about 80% of what we currently call "RPG" to that.

[@toatrika2443]

This comment ia stupid in retrospective

[@blackout295]

This is a discussion topic I've always pondered after having grown up with jrpgs like pokemon then being introduced to games like fallouts 1 and 2, and I feel like I could go through the process of distinguishing genres but I honestly feel like it'd be a waste of effort on my part. Who are we gonna convince we're right other than ourselves, and what sort of effect would making the exception the rule really have in the end? Marketing and culture have basically won what constitutes an rpg, as is the case for adventure games and more.

[@Saber0003]

In Skyrim, I'm pretty sure you got caught trying to cross the border. As for the topic at hand, I always say the RPG genre is more of a spectrum but you know them when you see them. That said, many concepts and mechanics that originated in RPG's have been hijacked by other genres, which has only muddied the RPG genre further.

[@hepwo91222]

It's quite simple, needs gameplay similar to old school tabletop games like Dungeons&Dragons with turn based or timed combat, not real time combat. Any real time combat is disqualified from being a true RPG and might just be an adventure or action game with RPG elements.

[@Saber0003]

@@hepwo91222 By that logic, the Witcher series isn't an RPG

[@hepwo91222]

@@Saber0003 it's not, it's an open world adventure game. It has RPG elements, but it's combat is real time, so by my own criteria, not a true RPG.

[@Saber0003]

@@hepwo91222 Your criteria is bad and you should feel bad.

[@hepwo91222]

@@Saber0003 why? I am basing off of where RPG's originated from, tabletop Dungeons&Dragons games. Real time combat is NOT a RPG.

[@tbone2646]

Yeah I think you made a good distinction at the beginning with traditional rpg vs jrpg, and perhaps peoples definition of 'what is an rpg' mostly comes down to whether they grew up playing pen and paper, PC or a Console

[@Luigi1010]

you have excellent taste in BGMs

[@Archestereo]

...maybe the "genre" of games that most people call "RPG" is really "management"? Or perhaps tactical/strategy? I mean, yeah, so then there are the games people call tactical or strategy RPGs, but from what limited experience I've had with alleged "RPG" games, they seem to be defined by a battle system that plays like a collectible card game, a custom chess game or some kind of weird Frankenstein-ish team sports simulator (and besides "experience" essentially progressing the story by soft-locking everything, that seems to be what makes the "stats and numbers and levels" relevant). Honestly, a big chunk of the gaming name conventions seems to consist of superficially comparing games to things gamers don't really understand (I mean, I'm not saying gamers ain't woke, but...) Take "First Person Shooter", for example. I probably don't have to explain that the name is borrowed from literary analysis, or that gamers think it should be called thus because the player sees through the playable character's eyes; however, their failure to define what would qualify as a "second person" game is truly ironic. You see, they don't actually know what "first person" means; they think it's referring to the perspective of the reader when it's actually that of the narrator. "Third person" means that person telling the story is disconnected from it altogether; they don't appear as a character nor directly affect the story nor are they directly affected by the story. If you wanna be "that guy", the narrator might be a background character or live in the same world after the fact or whatever, but the point is that the narrator is on the outside looking in; third person narrators say "they". As far as games are concerned, you mostly see this in "god games", games like the Sims where the gameplay/core mechanics, or the "game master" as it were, the game's equivalent of a narrator, operates at a level above that at which the "NPCs", and any possible stories, operate. But what about all those games where you're controlling characters like r/c cars? Aren't those "third person" games? That's what gamers have been calling them, but ironically they're actually "first person" games. Confused? Then I'll explain. "First person" perspective describes when a character in a story is also the person telling the story; they're essentially eye witnesses recounting events. This often means they're cast as the protagonist of the story, but there are instances of secondary characters giving second-hand accounts of someone else's story; point is, first person narrators say "I". While not exactly literary, a good example of a "first person" story is Steven Universe. Everything's told from Steven's "perspective"; he's always present and nothing is revealed to the audience that isn't also revealed to Steven. So in a game, this would mean that the "game master" is the playable character; that character _is_ the game. In something like Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic _is_ the game and thus it is a "first person" game. So then what about the alleged "First Person Shooters"? See, that's the thing; _those_ are the "second person" games that gamers have had so much trouble pinning down. What you have to understand is that second person narrators say "you"; they get the reader involved in the story and thus the reader becomes a character, again as the protagonist in most cases. In a game, this means that the screen ain't the fourth wall; it's your eyes. You're not controlling Master Chief; you _are_ Master Chief. _You_ are in the game. Everything relates to _you_. Not "I"; "you". Games that shine the spotlight squarely upon the gamer are second person games.

[@joeygreathouse3029]

Nope! Now that we have VR it's become obvious that you control master chief like a tank or robot, and you are not ever master chief! If you were correct VR would be overflowing with superior FPS games

[@Archestereo]

@@joeygreathouse3029 ... don't you mean SPS? You're missing the point; even if you were controlling a literal tank the game would still be second person. Hell, even in something like Night Trap where the premise sets a screen squarely between you and the action, you're still in the limelight. By your logic, you aren't the "stranger" in the Myst games either because you're just changing slides.

[@joeygreathouse3029]

@@Archestereo no

[@TheDevelo]

I don't really get what you're trying to say. The point of calling a game a first person shooter, third person shooter, or 'second person shooter' all has to do with perspective. The same goes for first/second/third person in literary analysis. For literary analysis, first person has the narrator be the main character, second person has the narrator be a side character, and third person has the narrator be separated from the characters. Replace narrator with camera and you literally get the definition of first/second/third person games.

[@Archestereo]

@@TheDevelo Naw, see, you're forgetting that the narrator is relaying the story to the audience; the narrator's perspective and ours ain't the same. When it's the "main character", they relay it to us like an eye witness account; thus our perspective is watching the narrator act out the story on stage. When they're completely removed, it's like they're giving color commentary to something equally alien to everyone. When they're the side character, guess who the "main character" is? The person they're addressing; you. The story they're telling is seen from _your_ perspective, thus the story that _you're_ in is a second person _narrative_ where the _narrator_ is a second party rather than first or third party. It isn't about you, it's about the narrator; that's what's tripping so many people up.

[@tigamaki1345]

Bethesda doesn't let you play as a bad guy any more. You can be a good guy, or an asshole who does the right thing. At some point they decided that you just... can't do too many bad things. Which then makes things like the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim so nonsensical. You always do the right thing regardless of if you like it... but also kill the emperor and destabilise the region?

[@SuperCaleb283]

I always wondered why adventure games disappeared, but when you realize that the genre has been eaten up by the RPG mantle it all makes sense

[@0AcE013]

ha, that's interesting. i only just now noticed this

[@0AcE013]

@@stayskeptic3923 yeah i was thinking the same thing. to me adventure games stopped meaning the interactive fiction type pretty quickly(think secret of monkey island) i just saw those as puzzle type games. when i was a kid at some point i definetly saw games that are closer to zelda types or even metroidvanias adventure games and the former monkey island ones were completely erased from my memory. it feels soemwhat surreal thinking about it now, maybe i'm just nostalgic.

[@hepwo91222]

I still call them adventure games. So Breath of the Wild, Witcher 3, Skyrim, open world adventure. New Vegas, Mass effect, First Person Shooter Adventure. Castlevania Symphony of the Night, Super Metroid, sidescrolling adventure. When they call everything a RPG, the genre is no longer descriptive of anything.

[@templariox32]

@@hepwo91222 ????? Those are not adventure games

[@hepwo91222]

@@templariox32 they are adventure games. Xenoblade, Octopath Traveler, Lost Odyssey are RPG's for example. Either turn based or timed combat just like tabletop games where RPG's were invented.

[@Sephivoiceactor]

One question this presents, is this- based on if we used his definition of RPG- then what would a typical JRPG be called, if we dropped RPG from it's name? Final Fantasy shows examples of being turned based, all the way to being a straight up action game. Heck, FF16 is taking inspiration from Devil May Cry and Dragon's Dogma. Brings a whole wave of questions all the way in there.

[@hannahalexandra1419]

I have spent *countless* hours trying to figure out what an RPG is...Oh my god!Thank you, Fudj! Does anyone else think there should be a list, like "An RPG must have at least 3 out of 5 of the following: 1. Modifiable skills 2. Alternate endings 3..." etc., I don't know why I find this so necessary...(??)

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

There are a lot of RPG's that don't have multiple endings you know, heck some don't even have endings at all you the player decides when it ends Story of Seasons: Friends of Mineral Town is a example of that. Though it does bring a question of how much RPG elements makes a game a RPG. Though Turn based RPG's and Action RPG's are distinctly both RPG's just one is turn based and one is real time. And only a idiot would say that only Turn Based are RPG's while others are games with RPG Elements but they are disqualified from even being a RPG simply because they are not turn based

[@Buzz231094]

You have picked some banging background songs in this vid

[@dakedres]

So, in actual roleplaying scenes, a lot of time people will categorize types of roleplay, like for instance if it's more dialog based and actions are just occasional sidenotes, that would be an LRP (light RP). LRPs are usually more casual, and based more on representing your character or are attached to another system (how most people play DnD could be classified this way). While if you're writing like it's an actual novel or some shi, that's more of a full RP, the type people would do in specialized group chats or whatever. (people do this stuff outside of erotic settings btw) My point is, we could apply this to video games. So LRPG, and RPG. Skyrim, is a Story-driven, combat-based LRPG, The actions are to further the story, and the RP is secondary to the combat. New Vegas, would be a Character-driven RPG, the story really is completely up to your character, and the roleplaying elements take hold over anything else, hell you can actually play the game completely through persuasion if you want. As for other applications of the term "RPG" that more apply to just "having strong progression" we could just say they're progression-heavy. Terms would also probably need to be made for games that allow you heavy control of your playstyle, as that's often also labeled as an RPG.

[@bacontube1271]

I feel like part of the issue is that you kind of shrug off the term jrpg early on. You're right- it's different from early rpgs (which came to be known as western rpgs) and are known as roleplaying games in the context that you play the role of a predefined character with less agency through a game with a large focus on a set story. Whether it should still have rpg in the name is debatable, but I feel like treating something like kingdom hearts as an isolated game and comparing it to modern warfare 2 instead of tackling jrpgs as a whole just doesnt tell the whole story.

[@chebic5095]

I remember that the term RPG was so vague and misrepresents the games that fit under it so much that I never played pokemon for years as I thought that it was like a role play game where you pretended to be a pokemon or pokemon trainer like the five year olds on roblox' adopt me

[@Alianger]

In Tetris you play the role of the wall, growing as its being built

[@raventelevision5382]

In Skyrim he says you were caught crossing the border and just unlucky because execution wagons were passing at the same time

[@tenacity25]

100% agree. This video pretty much summarizes what I can't legitimately say that I like RPGs. I like choosing my own adventure. I don't like being forced down a straight path with no choice except for stats.

[@jtrev492]

Trying to find out what song is used at and around the 8 minute mark

[@technology2598]

Rpg's to me are usually games that let you choose or make certain choices that either have certain boons or repercussions and have some sort of impact on the game world or on the character you build itself and isn't just commented by NPC's and that it has direct and physical change on the game world or gameplay and that each choice leads to a different outcome or END to a story (Fallout 4 is a failure or watered down RPG in my mind since most if not all outcomes lead to the same conclusion). New Vegas on the other hand does this adequately if not perfectly (though given the rushed development and technical limitations at the time of FNV i wonder what Obsidian could of accomplished with enough tech and time for FNV). All in all an RPG is one that let's you have an impact on the story of both character and world whether the character is one personally made or premade such as in Mass Effect where the choices had ramifications that transferred to later instalments or games like the Witcher where it let's you make choices on behalf of the character that either have moral or personal consequences, even the Metro series qualifies where certain actions lead to certain outcomes, etc, etc.

[@dsgibboney3]

I just want to say that your choice of using the pyrite theme is well appreciate here boss

[@LezbeOswald]

not fully convinced but i appreciated this insight. i guess the "role-playing" element is gone (or at least less explicit) in a lot more modern games. personally i do see the level-ups and stats as a big defining factor of rpgs if only because they were a big part of games like dnd. i also think turn-based combat is a big part of rpgs but i'm not gonna argue that games like Xenoblade _aren't_ rpgs just because they're action-based. idk. interesting video!