What HAPPENED?!?! MSI Claw 155H vs 135H vs ROG Ally Z1 & Z1 Extreme // Benchmarks & PC Gaming

[@retrotechdad]

Did the results surprise you? Do you think we can see some improvements here?

[@MichaOstrowski]

3DMark's Time Spy CPU test is about the most irrelevant thing there is. The entire thing has dubious validity, but that one is extra dumb.

[@retrotechdad]

Which is why you always test further with different benchmarks using a combination of synthetic, in-game, and actual gameplay.

[@MichaOstrowski]

One thing that's missing here for me are Ally gaming tests with CPU Boost disabled (which I assume was enabled). With framerates as they are, I found that the extra CPU power is way more useful for emulation (Switch, PS3, to some extent PS2) than for native games that will load the GPU more.

[@retrotechdad]

Thought about doing emulation comparisons as well. I suspect the Z1E will still pull ahead based on what I've seen individually when doing emulation. The Core Ultra processors don't support AVX 512, which is particularly useful for PS3 emulation.

[@MichaOstrowski]

@@retrotechdad that's possible, and still a damn shame. Maybe you could test if the latest Intel driver fixes Xenia? I've recently tried GOW Judgment and aside from very minor graphical glitches, once shader compilation settles down, I've got no problems getting to 30FPS without disabling any graphical effects on Z1E Ally using 15W TDP without CPU boost.

[@Muhluri]

Weird how it performs great in benchmarks then falls apart in actual gameplay

[@retrotechdad]

For sure, we see some hints of the performance capabilities but for the most part, the Z1E stays ahead.

[@killthemessenger84]

The problem is power efficiency

[@haysen123]

The temperature is concerning on intel still

[@julianojosoa2145]

That's Intel products in general

[@TheRealConflictedGaming]

I think it’s suffering from the arc experience, should be great but awful optimization and poor drivers.

[@GameTechTalk]

Oh it releassed today! Sweet :)

[@retrotechdad]

🔥🔥 Hustled to get this out!

[@quintingreyling2571]

Same as with the ARC A770 that I bought a year or so ago, the main issue I suspect are the drivers. This GPU has advanced in leaps and bounds over the past few months, and would be interesting to see if the driver updates on the Claw over the past few months have yielded any improvements

[@retrotechdad]

Currently looking at this, I wanted to do a 6 month update and see where things are right now! 🙏

[@Mrbowgod]

like some other reviewers stated before (ETA Prime and Retro Game Corps) it has to be a power struggle with the amount of cores the CPU has vs the onboard graphics. The core ultras might out perform the z1 extreme if there was an option to disable some of the cores to get more power to the GPU. But that is something msi and intel have to figure out.

[@zenbyo]

Not only that but the 135H intel model has faster VRAM along with less cores to power which is most likely why it trades blows (with the 155) so well. Those intel cpu's aren't sweating at all. I can't wait for the Lunar Lake chips.

[@cppctek]

Avg fps doesn’t paint the clearest picture. The 1% lows are really bad on the claw esp in cod and tons of issues with games just not running at all as well as menu freezing. The ally is the only one I’d suggest buying today

[@retrotechdad]

For sure, and it will vary on a per-game basis. The Ally (both models) are the better choices right now easily based on current price, performance, and maturity with drivers and software.

[@StubbsStuff]

Still so crazy, 135H is winrar! Great video, different vibe but i really enjoyed it 🎉

[@retrotechdad]

Yup, just straight into the numbers for this one! 🙏

[@Muhluri]

Haha winrar

[@MitchellKuykendall]

I think I might be insane but I'm still going to get the MSI Claw. Intel improved the drivers on the desktop Arc GPU's so significantly and they've already sent out multiple driver updates for the 155h in the past few months with the latest being march 20th. I'm really rooting for Intel to succeed in gaming!

[@retrotechdad]

The funny thing is the actual hardware is pretty nice. I like the comfort of the Claw quite a bit.

[@djmorris666]

The issues are two: arc drivers are still improving (as the desktop gpus show), plus the price is way to high. At 300-400 this would be a good entry level device

[@retrotechdad]

Agreed, I've said it before but Intel does need to compete somewhere whether it's on price, performance or potentially both.

[@ryukuuchiwa]

Thanks, very complete test

[@retrotechdad]

Thank you, I'm glad it was useful! 🙏

[@LiquidTens]

Imo it is not about unmature drivers. Z1 extreme is more powerful here. Time to time. I don´t know how MSI is selling this product. Why someone would buy one?

[@retrotechdad]

Not on paper though, the 155H in theory has the power but falls apart when going in-game. We can see the performance there for some games with the 135H/155H but for the most part the Z1E does stay ahead. Agreed though, the value is not there at least not today.

[@LiquidTens]

@@retrotechdad agree but sometimes no more power has to be directly better in videogames. Even if they get similar performance in the near future (give me the benefit of the doubt) how are they solve that high temps and energy consumption? Great job at the video dude but the games you say performs better is slightly. And what about the cross and de L1 R1 buttons? MSI 👎

[@mgsan4702]

​@@retrotechdad Because of ARC GPU..? Can driver fix issue? When Ally first came out do it have issues like this(low fps in games)?

[@JoeysRetroHandhelds]

So, keep my Ally? WHAT DO I DO ROBERT?

[@retrotechdad]

I think you know the answer, Joey 😅 I still think there are things you will like about the Claw. 🤗

[@zodiacfml]

thanks! the 135h being on-sale here at $460....but then I really need more than 16gb ram

[@dingodoobie6269]

Great review! Seen a few of your vids now, got a like and a sub from me :) Got an Ally and SD myself, so not fan boying intel. I do think they have done an ok job here, the pricing of the Claw is the main problem currently though. I'm pretty sure, given some time, that driver updates and BIOS optimisations will massively improve performance and bring it in line with the Z1E and even ahead in some titles. Intel is the underdog here whether people want to admit it or not, they haven't had the time nor experience with optimising drivers for gaming specifically, they have in the past only focused on compliance; compliance != optimised. Their massive improvements between driver versions on Arc is kind of proof of this fact. Out of interest, have you tried using DXVK for DX11 titles? Similarly, have you thought about trying a Linux variant where VKD3D (DX12 translation layer) is easier to get working? I've seen some videos showcasing DXVK on Windows and giving what seems to be massive improvements over native DX11 in performance in some cases on desktop Arc graphics, it makes me wonder if that would be the same here on the iGPUs. I would check myself but I don't have the cash spare for a Claw haha

[@retrotechdad]

Thank you for the kind words and the sub! 🙏🙏 You've got me very intrigued about DXVK, I need to look into this a bit!

[@dingodoobie6269]

Fallout 4 is a good one to test to make sure you've got the general process right, it gets an improvement regardless of CPU GPU manufacturer due to its ridiculous amount of draw calls (puts a ridiculous load on the main CPU thread); DXVK optimises this away. From my own testing on the Ally, mostly 60fps at 1080p high settings is possible at 12W with DXVK. Using native DX11 with those settings at 12W results in 30-50fps and sometimes dips below 30. Not all games benefit, but many do. GTA IV is another that often benefits from DXVK that immediately comes to mind, much smoother frame pacing in most cases. Iirc, Intel actually make/made use of DXVK for their DX9 driver

[@暇人-t6j]

This just proves that companies now targets benchmarking system to boost sales in poorly performing devices not actual gameplay performance. Basically scam-ish kind of thing, as long as it sells.

[@retrotechdad]

Yea, I wouldn't go based on just synthetic benchmarks alone. At the end of day, how it performs in-game matters the most. 💪💪

[@anjaysinaga8364]

Can you do updated review of current state claw ultra 5 vs rog ally z1? Want to know how the handheld stack again each other. Is it already better than lcd steam deck

[@andrejasofrenovic3425]

I'm honestly surprised that the base Z1 didn't perform much worse.

[@retrotechdad]

Agreed! I think the Z1 was overlooked because of how expensive it was initially. Nowadays, it's a bit more interesting since you can find it for as cheap as 299 USD open box.

[@TinTalon]

Interesting. Maybe a future firmware update could help the 155H?

[@retrotechdad]

I hope we do see some improvements with the drivers from Intel. I think anything they can do to help close the gap is needed here for sure.

[@karathkasun]

135H and 155H have the same iGPU, but the 155H has two more cores to feed with power. At equal power limits the 135H will have more GPU grunt because it has more power available to the iGPU or for more core turbo. Higher frequencies tend to help more than cores for the large majority of games.

[@zenbyo]

Faster vram too in the 135h.

[@karathkasun]

@@zenbyo VRAM = system RAM, both are LPDDR5 6400

[@zenbyo]

@@karathkasun You're right i had it confused. The CPU in the Ultra 5 does have a higher base clock at 1.7ghz even though it doesnt have the turbo boost option so it's headroom isn't as high.

[@Cosmonautchronicles]

I got my Z1 Ally open box. It’s the best deal in gaming!

[@TRX25EX]

I think MSI took Intel because they got a long term contract with Intel, so they can get their next gens of APUs or ARM chips..... I just wonder how good is Qualcomm X Elite cause it might change Handheld market for good if done right, apparently it can emulate not supported games with near 0 compromise in performance.....

[@retrotechdad]

Very excited for the Qualcomm X Elite!

[@alderlake12th]

Intel need to made some specific models for these handheld console The Ultra 7 is an example, we wont need as much cores as it have Should be 8P+2LP only

[@retrotechdad]

It would be really cool to see something that is specifically tailored for a handheld device!

[@PixelatedWolf2077]

Hello Retro! looking back st it, i do wonder if RAM being limited to 16 gigs is a bit issue. After all, the Ultra 5 is using a bit less of RAM than the Ultra 7 is.

[@Shenron67]

I don't have any x86 device like this, can you tweak the bios ? If not, can you use ThrottleStop ? We all know that Intel loves to burn energy like good old Netburst. Considering that the "125w TDP" of the 14900k still allow it to take up to 282w, I wouldn't be surprised that there's just not enough room for all the cores. See the TPU review with the 14900k down to 35w where there's just not enough power for the p-core.

[@retrotechdad]

100% there's too many cores and not enough power here. We know that more power helps with these chips. The BIOS can be unlocked to modify advanced settings, which is nice. Unfortunately, disabling certain cores doesn't seem to matter much so there's something else going on here.

[@MichaOstrowski]

The Phawx already tried disabling e-cores. It hasn't helped.

[@K543]

pcode/Firmware current? Do you have bios E1T41IMS.105 installed?

[@macky10229]

nice video @9:44 what TDP are you using on all devices?

[@retrotechdad]

Best performance presets available for each device. In other words, MSI Claw is set to Performance modes (~35w TDP) and the ROG Allys are set to Turbo mode (~25w TDP).

[@arsieg9967]

Msi ultra 5 in my country is around 350usd is it good buy?

[@retrotechdad]

Yes, that’s a very solid price!

[@animationalltout3134]

Hy bro is there a huge difference between the z1 and the z1 extreme regarding ps3 emulation?

[@badass6300]

Not really, they are pretty similar.

[@animationalltout3134]

@@badass6300 Good !!!!!

[@arield1899]

How are you, what a great video, check out, please recommend me the normal ASUS ROG Ally Z1 ? would I use only portable, many indie and triple AAA that work at 30/40 at 720p would be happy ? Thank you very much, I hope you can help me.

[@retrotechdad]

If you can get the Z1 ROG Ally for a good price, it's very capable and based on your needs should be plenty powerful! 🙏

[@cho-v4n]

Thanks Rob 🙂

[@Narshtashkia]

Those higher temperatures and less performances is crazy.

[@cunningpanda]

Have you tried these out lately. New deovers etc. I can get one of these pretty cheap £400.

[@antonhorvath2725]

I think that the difference between 135H and 155H will become apparent at a higher power, since they have a peak of 115W, but CLAW will give them only 35W, so they will not narrow their advantages.

[@retrotechdad]

I'd actually be very curious at what it can do at that peak. I wonder if there is any hardware out there that allows for the full capabilities. 🤔🤔

[@fyrebryan]

What happens when you disable some of the cpu cores to reduce power needed by the cpu? Seems pretty clear the cpu and gpu are fighting for power.

[@najeebshah.]

Disable half of the E cores , make more power available for the gpu

[@Jonnyd05]

I mean as today the core 5 msi claw is now a bargain price at 450

[@retrotechdad]

Well worth it at that price!

[@samsungfan1982]

Even though Intel made the attempt in the handheld market, the price to performance just doesn’t cut it when there are better devices for less. I was excited for this one too.

[@retrotechdad]

Agreed, either they need to be more competitive on price or performance and in an ideal world, both.

[@richieb9675]

Its a brand new device with a new chip…it will mature overtime and get better and better. It took Ally 7 months, LeGo 4 months. And yes i did perform better as the Claw now at the start. MSI did releae it too early. Price and performance doesnt fit now….but it will get there

[@samsungfan1982]

I really hope so. It looks so good and promising!

[@MrCcfly]

@@richieb9675 with intel inside u will get what u get now ..

[@shura4136]

Can you do an updated review of the onexfly, please,

[@retrotechdad]

What would you like to know? 🙏

[@shura4136]

@retrotechdad I would like to know how well. It's held up with all the games you played with it so far. Have you had any issues and would love to see if it can run these games well Call of duty mw3 the most recent if you have it helldivers 2 and a new game that comes out on April 5th called bmx streets I'm willing to wait until the 5th before I buy the onexfly because that's the game I'm most likely going to play the most on it and how long the battery lasts on AAA games with use edit and would love a howto set it up out of the box 🙏

[@Veddy74]

Call it reminds me of the pentium 4 VS the AMD.Athlon

[@retrotechdad]

Good 'ol days! 🤗🤗

[@kaimmjattzz]

Ally z1 extreme still 🐐

[@retrotechdad]

Agreed!

[@JMPants]

It should be considered fraud to sell the ultra 7 at $800usd when you can get the ally x for that and well, those 2 aren't even in the same ballpark.

[@crestofhonor2349]

It likely has to do with a combination of drivers and too much CPU boost where the CPU takes too much from the GPU. Intel never has been great with drivers and you can see how much some of their Intel Arc dGPUs have improved with drivers. The Arc A770 performs vastly better today than it did at launch. Overall Intel needs to have a better designed chip for handhelds as the MSI Claw has the potential of being very good with that large battery

[@MrSkipLim]

DX11 test plz

[@robras2850]

I need an ally 2 oled and a safe sd card slot and more battery

[@alphaomega154]

this is why common people/consumers should learn to research and read the DETAILED SPECS of electronic products before buying. you are tasking those devices for GAMING. and UNLIKE the AMD Z1 and Z1extreme which each has DIFFERENT set of iGPU, the intel's 135H and 155H SHARES EXACTLY THE SAME iGPU. and in "gaming" you are relying on the graphics processors. more than the CPU. for CPU specific tasks, the 155H sails ahead of the 135H and even the AMD Z1 extreme. and just to add more, again, UNLIKE the AMD Z1 and Z1 extreme, the core ultra chip inside those intel based "gaming" hendhelds are STANDARD core ultra chips that you find in many intel based THIN ultrabook type of laptops. which are NOT gaming laptops. they are "business"/office work oriented. despite the "arc" name on the iGPU that dont means its synonymous to gaming. "arc" iGPU line up effectively replaces the old iris iGPU. thats all. the gaming oriented ones are in the DISCRETE ONES. like those you find in MINI PC like intel's NUC 12. which has DISCRETE arc A770mobile GPU. that one will sail miles ahead of the radeon 780m in the Z1 extreme. but again, since the 780m is an iGPU the A770M should instead compare to AMD''s mobile discrete GPU like the 7800M XT. so "what happened"? thats what happened. the handheld devices that adopts the intel's core ultra FORGOT or deliberately FORGOT to order for a CUSTOM CHIP from intel that comes with gaming fitting type something like arc 770M. while the AMD based handhelds uses CUSTOM chips. by the way i support the idea of people start to move towards "low voltage" side of things in consumer level computing tasks/purposes. also since the ARM64 would be a common PC chip format soon. you know, for the planet. (do you realize how CHEAP those mini PC these days? like those intel NUC that has core ultra 155H and discrete A770M. WAAAY cheaper than alienware beefy gaming laptop and performing similar. im not promoting intel here, but go CHECK THE MINI PC STUFF. its CHEAP and it is ABLE.).

[@Sadtiric]

Huh... they're multiplying?!

[@retrotechdad]

🤣🤣🤣

[@garys6898]

Why is the legion go always left out?

[@retrotechdad]

I can definitely include the Go next time around. Performance should be similar because of the Z1 Extreme.

[@garys6898]

@@retrotechdad I hear you but I have the ally and the legion and I think the legion performs a little better especially when I throw 30 watts at it

[@raguel259]

Intel processors have too many cores. The Steam Deck has only four CPU cores and has excellent performance because the CPU and GPU do not fight for power, which is probably the reason why the 135H can perform better in games than the 155H despite having fewer CPU cores.

[@tortandt]

It's strange that Intel always uses up 16GB of memory.

[@skystoure6756]

LEGION ALL THE WAY!

[@DelightfulVideoGames-do3zm]

Test NBA 2K please

[@cqllel5186]

MSi CLAW at 30W can't even match Steam Deck/OLED at 15W and less in game performance

[@VatchGaming]

I think it's because its a garbage.

[@Gh0styGames]

🤔

[@retrotechdad]

What do you think, Ghosty?

[@Gh0styGames]

@@retrotechdad Intel igpu useless as usual only difference is they hyped it this time 💀 feel bad for ppl that copped claw

[@MrCcfly]

lol intel

[@djmorris666]

Competition is good and really needed… nothing to lol about

[@retrotechdad]

@@djmorris666 Exactly 🙏🙏

[@MrCcfly]

@@djmorris666 intel cant compete with arm consoles let alone with amd console so LOL

[@HDRPC]

Z1 consumes more power than Ultra 5 and 7 and almost same performance in forza 5.

[@retrotechdad]

It doesn't. You need to look at the total power for the Intel chips. Regardless, FH5 numbers between the three are quite close overall.

[@HDRPC]

@@retrotechdad i just saw in saw video. Those watt is total SoC power means CPU+iGPU combined. Forza 5, Intel and Z1 is consuming almost similar power. You are not showing power of z1 extreme most of the time. I have ultra 5 125H Galaxy Book 4 Pro and it is giving me 100 fps average with 82 fps 1% lows in GTA 5 in 28 watt using built in benchmark. I am going to do more testing and i will upload many many games testing. I also did BATTERY drain test.

[@retrotechdad]

@@HDRPC AMD and Intel are represented differently in HWinfo.

[@HDRPC]

@@retrotechdad i did testing. Hwinfo shows CPU package power and msi after burner Riva tuner shows GPU power, both are showing similar power means CPU package power is total SoC power CPU+iGPU combined. GPU power of msi afterburner is also total SoC power means CPU+iGPU combined.

[@HDRPC]

@@retrotechdad hwinfo cpu package power remain at 3 to 4 watt in online video playback means total chip power, CPU+iGPU+Ram. If it was above 4 watt so it will never be able to provide 11 to 12 hours of online video streaming with 62Wh BATTERY capacity of Galaxy Book 4 Pro 14".

[@Cloud28693]

I'm so confused... The only thing I know is that I feel sorry for Intel 🥲

[@retrotechdad]

Yea, we need Intel to do better. 😢