What Happened to The MACOs?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Make sure to pick up something nice venom-geek-medias-merch.myspreadshop.com/

[@jonathanbair523]

I always viewed Star Fleet security training being the new home for the MACO's where they could focus on keeping the ship safe and sending one or two security personal on away missions while the since folks poked around looking at the flowers... In TNG they have Warf object to a unarmed away mission and he points out regulations say there should be a security personal on the away mission to protect Riker I think was leading the team.

[@merafirewing6591]

Imagine how the Dominion War and the Border Wars would've played out had the MACOs still existed. And also the Four Years War against the Klingons.

[@Qardo]

Well, just goes to show. Politicians getting involved with military matters. Just means they would rather disarm themselves. While there are still enemies at the gates. And the enemy is not talking.

[@paulnicholson5997]

Yeah, and Chamberlain famously said" With this piece of paper, we will have peace in our time." Something like that. Well, history shows the best defense is a strong offense.

[@vic5015]

They certainly would have been useful at the Siege of AR-558.

[@hellacoorinna9995]

Can't enforce curfew with starships

[@hellacoorinna9995]

Can't reqlly own territory, unless you can walk around on jt.

[@duomaxwell2293]

I always liked to think that if the "Hazard Teams" from Elite Force games had existed in canon they would have been an evolution of what MACOs used to be.

[@admiralalex1000]

Hmm or maybe the Hazard teams will evolve into a new MACO force. After several wars it's not impossible Starfleet would go...Yeah we need marines back. So much could be done with all the races in mixed fireteams.

[@jefferynelson]

I believe if it weren't for his KZbin success, our content creator would wander from pub to pub wearing a Star Trek uniform of some type, talking sci fi and starting brawls, but that's just me

[@howtz4968]

Your not alone....

[@alejandronopasanada5302]

No crap that’s what I do but I don’t start brawls. I wear the discontinued but very nice hoodies that use to be on thinkgeek.

[@MADDOG2151]

That sounds awesome I'm in

[@1228carlito]

What gets me is why Star Fleet didn't keep a group of MACOS on each ship as part of the security team. Like a SWAT team, in case they had situations come up that would require that level of expertise. Regular security seemed unable to deal with those kind of situations.

[@Relav1364]

I literally smile with excitement at seeing my absolute FAVOURITE part of Enterprise get the proper justice they deserve! I love that the idea of the MACOs came as "the best of the best" of humanity's best elite troopers. Time and time again, history shows that a ship can win a battle, but its the boots on the ground that win the war. Also big props to schooling the cat monsters from TAS. Trained Soldiers will beat a Warrior every single time. One thing that makes me sad, while it was inevitable that the MACOs would gradually be absorbed into Starfleet, the obvious brain drain of losing elite trained infantry to fight wars clearly affects Starfleet all the way into the 24th Century, given the relatively mediocre performance of Starfleet Security on the ground. One wonders if they should retain a force of elite infantry in the future. Thanks for the video!!!!!

[@weldonwin]

Kzinti: FIGHT FURLESS FREAKS!!! MACOs: *(Deploying Tactical Spray Bottle)*

[@andrewjansen1012]

This is the biggest issue I have w the "ideal utopia" of Star Trek Federation. You have an organization like Starfleet that goes out exploring and learning new things of the universe, and you don't expect to run into any xenos? Especially HOSTILE ones? Like the Kzinti and Klingons? Thats just stupid. Now don't be all guns ablazin, but when all other options are out, call in the sledges aka MACOs. And as DS9/FC showed us, Starfleet can design some pretty awesome and nasty weapons in the DEFENSE of the Federation; quantum torpedoes, Sovereign class, Defiant class, that special transporter slug gun, Akira class, etc; imagine what defensive stuff the MACOs could have had? Personal shields or Kevlar like Ablative armor plates. The ideas are endless. Again, I'm not asking for dark dystopia future of wh40k here, but having the ability to beat back an aggressive foe who won't listen outside of violence, needs to be on the table.

[@richjordan6461]

​@@weldonwinhahahaha

[@weldonwin]

@@richjordan6461 Supposedly, the Kzinti fought no fewer than FOUR wars with Earth and later the Federation, lost every single one and each was more of a curbstomp than the last. Also, will be disappointed if no one recognizes the video game reference here

[@lastswordfighter]

It is only by plot contrivance that Earth did not end up an alien subjugated colony or burnout cylinder at the Federation's various enemies. Starfleet story wise does decent as an exploration, scientific research, archeological, shipping, and security apparatus but is lousy as a military apparatus.

[@sirjohndoethegreat8358]

Man watching this is almost as good as finding a lost episode of Enterprise. You have such respect and appreciation for the material. Bravo! Bravo!

[@aiosquadron]

My headcanon is that they were partly folded in to Starfleet security, as a part of the "shock unit" division.

[@captainsquarters1030]

I love the more obscure lore from TAS being brought in. I don't think The Animated Series gets enough love from the community.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

It is a pity the Starfleet Marines, or the Federation Army, were not featured much (Colonel West, and the small appearances in Star Trek V aside), because the security officers on Starships, or even the ground elements featured in DS9 are a joke. Even by SP (Air Force and Navy versions) standards. It always bothered me as a kid how undertrained, armed and armored they were, but after my time as an army officer, which has led to me criticizing almost every military movie, TNG era Starfleet security dudes are even more laughable (at least the TOS redshirts acted like they had some training). They are basically bank security guards. The MACOs were great, and it is clear a decent amount of thought went into their presentation and their tactical movements on screen. I wish we had seen more of them.

[@OllamhDrab]

I think in some ways you've got to allow for that TNG just didn't do fighting very well, however capable everyone was *supposed* to be. (And there was of course the tragic writing device, "Worf gets his butt kicked in a way that's supposed to make bad guys scarier but it doesn't work cause he *always* gets his butt kicked from the start." ) In my writings and if I run tabletop games I always allow for the existence of Starfleet Marines, though, ..my general 24th century scheme was you'd mostly find them among the Corps of Engineers and their missions and stations cause cross-training and all. Also more likely being posted to ground assignments and bases by the nature of that work. And, gotta say it was great to see the MACOs in Enterprise, showing Human soldiers really kicking butt with such exotic Earth things as collapsible tonfa and all.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

@@OllamhDrab Yes, TNG era shows also did not have the budget for much. Paramount ran those shows on the cheap despite their enormous success. Frakes and others who have directed episodes have often talked about the corners that had to be cut due to very strict, meager, budgets.

[@TheRezro]

I mean, from what Chief O'Brien was saying, Federation did have decent security. They were simply in insufficient numbers.

[@s0ulshot]

You have stun gun, rifle, and tank cannon on a hand held device, that doesn't really have any counter if you aren't a green cyborg man. Also you can be beamed out, disintegrated from the orbit and tracked everywhere no matter where you are. Modern military forces are just not something you want in the Star Trek universe where you need space ship crew capable of running the only viable weapon and defence you have, and not some marine battalion that can be killed or relocated by the enemy the moment they touch ground.

[@OllamhDrab]

@@s0ulshot Well, everyone's got measures and countermeasures about some of that, but they're a lot more likely to be useful breaching facilities and ships than really ground-pounding out in fields or something.

[@alanmike6883]

I'm gonna say it. Starfleet security isn't fit for purpose. Starfleet marines a bit better though. But not having the Macos in the New federation was a big mistake

[@SuperGamefreak18]

It was basically early signs of the golden age arrogance. The klingons and romulans were the biggest threats at the time and everything basically worked as it is, anyway. The Macos in my opinion even though you said other wise would be the equivalent of the royal seals, basically the elite of the elite of the military. The dominion war would be one of the BIGGEST reasons after the fact why the Macos or a similar organization could have been created. edit post video: haha guess I had a similar general idea to what the macos are.

[@Hellserch]

Your missing the point about what Star fleet represent. It’s not a dedicated military force. It’s that simple. If we follow your logic, we will never get off this planet.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

@@Hellserch yes and no, Star fleet is the navy of the federation in a sense and is combat ready but isn’t around to pick fights. A fight should always be the last answer and Starfleet IS a diplomatic explorative group first but they are still functional a military, I honestly always liked comparing starfleet to a shield. It’s something you would take to places dangerous that could defend you if you needed it but wouldn’t look like your picking fights(honestly sounded better in my head).

[@axelhopfinger533]

A sensible Starfleet would have a complement (at least a squad) of elite SpecOps commandos on each combat/exploratory vessel for purpose of boarding/boarding counter situations, seeing how many severe threats there are in the galaxy. Soldiers which are explicitly trained and equipped to deal effectively with threats like the Borg or Jem'Hadar. Because sometimes you just need more oomph and competence than redshirts with phasers.

[@Pandarian300]

@@axelhopfinger533 Yep, and seeing in how many trek episodes of different series starships are boarded then taken (including galaxy class lol) someone would come to conclusion that "huh maybe redshirts and the so-called "SeCurity" isn't enough"

[@harryjohnson9215]

When i hear 15:36 i started thinking of something like spaceships HMS VANGUARD, HMS INVINCIBLE, HMS PRINCE OF WALES and HMS FURIOUS

[@DarinRWagner]

The MACOs are the exact opposite of the US Marine Corps in that the Marines were once part of the Navy and eventually separated from the Navy into their own branch while the MACOs started off as a separate branch and eventually (according to JJ and other Prime Universe resources) became part of Starfleet.

[@TheRezro]

That already started in Enterprise.

[@joelrodriguez9661]

The US Marine Corps is still officially a part of the US Navy. In some ways it is considered a separate branch of the US Armed Forces. But in the hierarchy of the US Department of Defense the Marines are still a part of the Department of the Navy and their chain of command answers to the Secretary of the Navy. So there are some similarities and differences between the USMC and the MACOs.

[@shanenolan5625]

I believe they were folded into a star fleet marine Corp. In the undiscovered country. We meet a character. There are generals and colonel's ( we meet a colonel west in the undiscovered country. Played by the odo actor . ( presa plenty to rescue kirk snd McCoy from kronos. .

[@johnharrison6745]

That was the late Rene Auberjonois.

[@shanenolan5625]

@@johnharrison6745 yes . May he rest in peace.

[@shanenolan5625]

@Kirbecca yes. Or, like Jack nickelson in ( a few good men ), freedom comes at the expense of men guarding the walls and borders. So civilians can live their lives.

[@hellacoorinna9995]

Col. West = Oliver North

[@JaredLS10]

In DS9 episode The Waltz the Defiant has orders to escort a convoy of Starfleet Marines as a priority even if it meant giving up the search for Sisko.

[@balrighty3523]

9:19 And now I’m wondering about a deep dive into Colonel Green and the rest of the post-WW3 pre-First Contact era. We know some of it from Q’s choice of setting for putting humanity on trial. TOS introduces the character alongside the likes of Kahless, Surak, Genghis Khan, and Abraham Lincoln. And I seem to remember one novel attributing something called the “particle curtain” to Green’s prominence.

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

By an interesting coincidence--- I own that novel. "Prime Direçtive" is it's title.

[@warrenreid6109]

I died laughing when you said "no I'm not talking about the shark" then proceeded to show the patch with the shark on it.

[@captainyossarian388]

I cannot adequately express how much nerd love I have for you and your content. I'm inspired to dig up all the Star Trek technical manuals, blueprints, and SFB/F&E material I have in a box somewhere and put them on the coffee table and night stand.

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

Hm, an interesting combination of ideas. Making the origins of the M.A.C.O. being a mixed of post-Atomic Horror criminal hunters *and* anti-boarding defenders against Kzinti raids on Human ships and colonies. It does make me wonder what relations Humanity has with the official Kzinti central government though. As for the Martian independance thing, yeah that cliche has gotten quite tiring. A shame the M.A.C.O.s were dissolved post-2161. Though at least in STO, they managed to make a return in 2409.

[@Nostripe361]

Depends on how much the central government is connected to the raiding diaspora. I mean one subrace of Kzinti actually became a federation member race. I believe they are called Catarians and you can see some of them in the original movies and one of them in the old animated series. Like if they are supporting the raiders than I bet pretty poorly but I could also see them having good relations if say the reason the raiders left their homeland was because the central government was too passive for their liking.

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

@@Nostripe361 ; I would point out they are called Caitians not Catarians. Caitians both biologically and politically are more distant from Kzinti than Vulcans are to Romulans. So not really a good comparison to describe possible Human-Kzinti relations in the late 22nd and early 23rd centuries.

[@davidblank420]

In my head-cannon Reed incorporated MACO tactics and weaponry into Starfleet Security.

[@esquire1229]

The military officer who oversaw the MACOs was General Casey. (ENT: "The Expanse") MACO posts included Atlanta, Georgia and the Janus loop. In fact, M.A.C.Os will be meeting this late summer in Atlanta. When you drive through Atlanta, you are in M.A.C.O country.

[@rex290]

Letting Larry Niven write a few episodes of TAS was one of the best things Roddenberry ever did imo

[@richjordan6461]

Wow, Venom, you've outdone yourself. I had no idea I'd be so entranced with a MACO story. I'd love to see that movie or read that book! That was awesome storytelling

[@Qardo]

MACO is basically Star Trek's version of Rainbow Six.

[@qetoun]

This is what I love about Trek. The lore is so vast you can deep dive forever!

[@cyanhb9689]

Deep Space Nine answered your question. The Bajoran Militia was required to be disbanded and folded into Starfleet. Each individual Planet's military was required to disband.

[@JaredLS10]

I always thought that was the dumbest thing, allow a world to keep its military as National Guard / Coast Guard type military, it can operate on its own planet / solar system only. It would be a last line of defense against aggressors or pirates. Sisko even said that Starfleet could not guarantee the safety of Bajor if it joined the Federation leading up to the Dominion War.

[@aiosquadron]

In Star Trek Online timeline, they were not disbanded but left to a role more like coast guard, Militia, or local police.

[@711desmond]

Finally someone acknowledges the existence of the animated series, also I really liked the slaver weapon episode, tas also disproves voyagers statement about holodecks, (an idea for a major grin roast for Star Trek KZbinr roast part 2 perhaps?)

[@MoonjumperReviews]

Excellent theorizing. I’m very pleasantly surprised that you brought up the mostly forgotten Kzinti War. I was ready to mention it in the comments-and you nailed it! Well done!

[@christophernemeth421]

Wasnt Idris Elba 's character originally a MACO before being merged into Starfleet?

[@danielseelye6005]

That's correct

[@derekp9877]

Awesome and informative video. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Nice to get a piece of Star Trek history not fully shown onscreen.

[@D.M.S.]

MACOs were used in the Romulan war. They even had their own ships. Also there were land battles. The Romulans hired Mercenaries, like Nausicans to fight for them. At least I thought so.

[@bobfrancis123]

Maj. Jeremiah Hayes was an absolute king. Under NO chain of command would a Major serve under an LT, but Hayes, for the sake of the mission, swallowed his pride and allowed the incompetent Reed to have command.

[@kindasupersonic7114]

STO brought the MACOS back.. it’s nice to have a dedicated vessel born fighting force .. like the Marines stationed on naval vessels from the days of the sailing ships all the way till the late 90s early 2000s

[@vaeloreonari7516]

@3:50 it's Phoenix not Pheonix, fyi.

[@impacking]

In my head canon, the troops at AR-558 were supposed to be MACO or whatever they were called at that time.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Interesting given they are wearing Starfleet uniform

[@sh1701-A]

@@venomgeekmedia9886My head cannon is simple. During the time of the Dominion War. The MACOs were coming back but, by the time of the battle of AR-558. The MACO units were using Star Fleet uniforms and technology until the MACOs can get on its own two feet so to speak. The end of the War happened before all this could be done. Then the Klingon War, Iconian War and so on made it so that Star Fleet need to expand the MACOs to what we see in Star Trek Online. The MACOs adopted some of the first and second season TNG uniforms as duty uniforms. The 22nd century uniform that you see in Enterprise was used as a dress uniform in the 25th century. Look at the US Army today. You’ll see the uniform from the Civil War era be used as Dress uniforms while testifying to Congress. The MACOs in the 25th century used old and new Star Fleet ships but, modify them to be used for greater battle readiness against the Borg, Klingons and Delta Quadrant foes. Just to give everyone a sense of a story line for the MACOs that I think makes sense. If anyone wants to play Star Trek online. Don’t hesitate to message me. Live long and Prosper.

[@FarSeeker8]

Oceanic Space Lines! Ummmm, NOPE! 12:50, S. Austin! Hmmmm. I hadn't caught that before.

[@konradoziom2222]

Just for the record. Poland build their entire suply line for Borsuk IFV, while designing it and producing prototypes in a decade. Martians might have some military factories in 27 years if they wanted to from yhe start. 6:52

[@johnburns9634]

Considering 1776+27 was 1803... Mars might have been stronger than one might think. Of course, not sure how much of Mars was settled...

[@FrakkinGaiusBaltar]

"I'm now going to bring up Animated Series lore" >Slams fist on table< CRITICAL *STRIKE*

[@sydneysmith1521]

A good analysis. I am surprised that, as Star Fleet evolved, they did not keep the MACO uniforms. They are definitely more in line with camouflage discipline. Who knows, with the right guidance, the entire 'red shirt' issue could have been avoided.

[@raw6668]

I think it would have been better if MACO remained but as United Earths' military. Similar to how the Vulcans and Andorains still have theirs even as members of the Federation. Maybe due to the events of the 24th Century, it was reactivated to be the last line of defense of Earth and her colonies, while other members built their own, let's say defense forces. If for no other reason then to free up Starfleet ships to go on the offensive instead of being used to defend the Federation.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Yeah earth holds a special place In the federation

[@tullyDT]

I loved how you burned the average Martian civil war writer. A lot of those books are banal and eye roll inducing. And also Kudos on fleshing out the Martian Independence crises

[@thmsmgnm.4513]

He burned himself with that one. Anyone who thinks far flung human civilization will be long rules or ruled at all by one centraluzed government ignore history.

[@tullyDT]

@thmsmgnm.4513 no he didn't he pointed out the Martian civil war trope is done to death and often shittily so. They're either confederate circle jerks reimagining the American Civil War in Spaaaaaace where its about state's rights instead of state's rights to own slaves. Or, a Marxist wet dream about the workers of some corporation on Mars taking over and expelling the upper management.

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

@@thmsmgnm.4513 ; Mars is not a far-flung human civilization in 22nd century Star Trek though. It's only around half an hour away at impulse speed and a few minutes at Warps 1 & 2.

[@ShadowStoryteller]

You know what I'd be curious about...how the MACO's were reformed in 2409 and slightly earlier. Just to see your take on it. Something to think about, at least.

[@SPatrickRoss]

Kazin attacking! Uh oh! Better get M.A.C.O.!😂

[@HugoFitzpatrick]

I hoped a little of Balthazar Edison from Star Trek Beyond would slip in on top of the Xindi war canon. Due to temperal cold war shenanigans I think their role may have been upped by the need to fight the Xindi but ultimately they disolved with the Federation's founding. Edison's xenophobia and disdain for The Federation stems from PTSD and a fear that the frontier will push back, as he went madhe embodied that fear. The Kelvin timeline Starfleet is bigger and bolder, and more forward. The prime timeline became more peaceful and cowboy diplomacy as we see with TOS and SNW. The need to project force is different, and the arrogance/ hubris of Starfleet is a persistent thread. Commandos of some kind existed in ST Vi gearing up to raid the Klingons to retrieve Kirk, but ultimately Starfleet remain the heroes. The human heavy Starfleet replaced the Andorian Imperial Guard and other similar forces. Soldiers exist in DS9s Klingons war but what branch is also left murky. But Klingons and Jem'hadar are a lot scarier than big cats, so special forces more than red and yellow shirts are certainly warranted...

[@waynecaviston4116]

It’s interesting and scary that we’re close to the historical events that are in the Star Trek lore

[@KashouWannabe]

Another VGM video added to my favourites.

[@alexandercaires5921]

What if...during the Romulan War, MACO units were wiped out by orbital nuclear strikes? As the war was mostly ship to ship and that Archer was trying to get MACO stationed on other Starfleet bessels, what if they took heavily losses they were then folded into Stargleet Security.

[@RobTheSquire]

I dare say that some elements of MACO was adopted by Section 31 as kept for many centuries.

[@spoons3816]

You say that the Romulan war was purely ship to ship however perhaps they could have fought the Remans and were found to either be ineffective or were lumped together with starfleet security.

[@TheRezro]

Romulan War was specific. Romulans were paranoid and in many ways prefer to self-destruct ship then allow boarding. They also did not care to capture planets. They goal was pure elimination of Earth, but without actually pushing all they forces. With exception of land grab, it actually did resembled in many ways War in Ukraine.

[@jameslewis2635]

The MACO's were a logical group to keep running. Any student of warfare history can tell you that the forms of modern warfare are constantly changing. For instance before Ukraine was invaded many people thought the concept of World War 1 style trench warfare was a thing of the past. A war entirely fought at a distance without any infantry involvement is entirely unrealistic. You can take terratory with mobile units but to hold any ground for more than a moment you need infantry. Also as you spread your terratory wider and wider encounting an ever expanding amount of unsavoury encouners you are much more likely to need a well armed group of specialists to secure facilities, conduct security and armed rescue operations in areas where things like starship weapons and transporter beams are not practical. Having a few squads on each capital ship in Starfleet would have made a lot of sense, especially going into the Dominion war.

[@Qardo]

While this is true. Have to keep in mind who runs the Federation. Thus, those in charge do not like the military. Hate the whole concept of having a standing military of any kind. Reason why Starfleet is always said to be an explorer group. Than a military. But, we all know Starfleet is very much a military and is the first and last line of defense of the Federation. Yet, how many times has the Federation ignored Starfleet Intelligence over possible threats or issues with security of the Federation or that of Earth. And what happens? Earth is attacked, and everyone is shocked. Thus, if MACO did exist and were allowed to operate as they should. A lot of wars would have played differently for the Federation. Though, this is a theory, of course.

[@mikesurlygentlemanwalton]

The fact that the Federation doesn't have an army, let alone special forces, is a testament to how the writers' basic approach to starfleet and war is and then they won. Like what does starfleet do when a planet is invaded? Negotiate them to death?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

When orbital bombardment is on the table that can work...

[@Hartzilla2007]

"The fact that the Federation doesn't have an army, let alone special forces" And now Strange New Worlds has given Starfleet Special Forces.

[@mikesurlygentlemanwalton]

@Hartzilla2007 ok, so what happens to them by the time of ToS, TnG, DS9, or Voyager. At no point in the modern (post ToS) has starfleet had even a ground army, let alone special forces. I mean, if you count Star Trek elite forces, they technically had one in the expanded lore of video games, but outside of that, there is no current mention.

[@Hartzilla2007]

@@mikesurlygentlemanwalton Ground forces show up in DS9 twice.

[@maxpayne930]

Well at least we have MACO again on STO sense the cosmos is in clusterfuck and Terrans still have them

[@vashstpd]

I'm surprised you didn't add their comeback in STO. They go through allot of changes there, that could have been interesting to add to video!

[@ralphsexton8531]

The Kzinti "sublight" ships are likely the same as Romulan "sublight" ships. Star Fleet Battles had a good explanation which on screen evidence does seem to confirm. The original warp drive (Phoenix, NX-01 Enterprise, Romulan Warbird from TOS) were what later generations called Impulse engines. They have field coils (mentioned in TNG), and can create a simple warp bubble for FTL travel, but cannot sustain it through high energy transfers - aka combat. Thus combat is handled at Sublight speeds, as we see on Enterprise. This is how the Romulans can have a Star Empire with only "sublight" ships, and how "sublight" Kzinti ships could reach Earth. This is also why the Enterprise D saucer can sustain warp speed. Note that in Balance of Terror and Journey to Babel of TOS, Q Who of TNG, and Star Trek: Nemesis all prove that more modern engines can sustain warp in combat.

[@nekophht]

I feel like MACOs got merged into Starfleet Security during the formation of Federation Starfleet. A lot of the roles the MACOs seemed to play in Enterprise would be the type of stuff a security team would handle later in Starfleet. Presumably the institutional knowledge/gear when it comes to ground/shipboard combat was somewhat lost pre-DSC S1 and the rest largely probably went in the post-ST6 era. It would've been interesting if in the build up to the Dominion War, the Federation started expanding Starfleet Security to essentially form a new MACO force. The debates and discussions over how/if such a force should exist in the Federation, etc might've provided some fun plot points (particularly if part of it got tied into Layton's coup attempt, rather than using a team of cadets for it...).

[@barrybend7189]

Voyager made the Hazard teams as advanced Maco like security units.

[@JaredLS10]

@Kirbecca As a certain admiral once said "hubris, sheer fucking hubris"

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

Ah, yes... Admiral Potty Mouth (as she is "affectionately" described). 😏 (She'd be *300% CORRECT*, in THIS instance.)

[@HyraxusPrimus]

I can see the Enterprise D not having MACOs aboard as standard (even though there would be more than enough room for them) because of the exploration mission statement, but for a situation such as Chain of Command, where Captain Jellico or Admiral Nechayev show up and assign them to a secret tactical mission on a known hostile planet, you'd think they'd also be forced to take along soldiers specifically trained for such a mission, instead of a select group of senior officers. With how many flag officers we see lean heavily towards the militaristic side, there still has to be a ground warfare division that they have to call upon every so often.

[@andrwblood9162]

It's strange to think that colonies would be set up in Alpha Centauri before Mars. But if yoy think about the lack of a hospitable atmosphere on Mars and the need to build domes, the exo-systems with M-class planets are better choice for fledgling Earth. And Alpha Centauri is composed with multiple different planetary systems, with Beta canon pointing to a good few of them being hospitable for humans. You don't even need to fudge with Beta lore. Proxima Centauri might irl have an Earth like planet!

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

We really need more on the MACOs. Do they still exist in the modern starfeet after the DOminion War? it seems like they would have been brought back at least in spirit to fight the vicous ground and bording actions against the Dominion. Also id like to inquire again about the possibility of a updated hutet video with all your fancy new graphics etc and lore from the Dominion war series which has added quite a bit to the history of the Hutet class. i'm willing to commison the episode for the usual 20$ commander tier but not unless i know before hand that you will do it if i put down the cash.

[@OverkillDM]

Though I’ve got mixed feelings about some parts of Star Trek Online’s lore, I did always like that they brought back the MACOs as an organization for fighting the Borg.

[@starmnsixty1209]

Glad you mentioned the Kzinti in TAS. It was strongly implied, though, by Sulu I believe, that the Kzin as a whole had fought wars against Earth. The clans idea wouldn't seem to fit his comments very well. I understand if ENTERPRISE had continued, we would have seen the Kzinti in live action, which would've been great.

[@birdmonster4586]

I generally hold that Starfleet Security forces weren't terrible or incompetent just not trained for the same stuff as the MACOs were. Really though, the writing was on the wall for the MACOs once Starfleet started really getting its feet wet. Sure, right now the MACOs are better trained and equipped, but from that point on Starfleet was going to be at the front of any conflict. Starfleet was going to be advancing it's technology faster. Starfleet was going to be getting all the experience dealing with threats. Archer made a point of saying that MACO "Tactics and Technology" was only two or three years more advanced than Starfleet. So realistically Starfleet would start improving at a rate that the MACOs couldn't keep up with. I do like to think that when the MACOs integrated into Starfleet it was pretty amicable and that even in the 24th century the "Advanced Security Training course" was known as the "MACO Course"

[@farshnuke]

Great episode and it makes sense

[@davesobani9565]

Those ships you used for the kizinti, reminded me alot of those from the Mirak Star League

[@Josh-iv2bw]

They're the "same" race. Niven owns the rights to the kzinti, so SFC had to use a different name.

[@timothyhiggins8934]

you know, if the higher ups of star trek ever want to make a new prequel series, which may be soon, covering this period of planetary consensus would interest me. and it would seem that the MACOs are the template for earth to combine its forces and resources to achieve common goals. great video

[@paulnicholson5997]

Well, season 5 of Enterprise was going to kick off the Romulan War. It was right there in front of us, now there's no way Enterprise could ever return under Kurtzman. And yes, I know you were speaking of a possible new show but, I'm afraid that Starship has sailed.

[@angelphoenix7784]

@@paulnicholson5997 And sank in clam waters.

[@paulnicholson5997]

@Angel Phoenix77 Unfortunately, I saw a stat that said "Enterprise" which had an average of 3.37 million viewers for the last few weeks of the show. By contrast "STD" had 1.7 million viewers for its pilot episode, which usually brings in its strongest numbers, while Enterprise brought in 12.5 million for its pilot, demolishing STD's supposed strong viewership. These numbers were easy to find and proves "STD" could only dream of the #'s Enterprise was getting. Oh, 1 more thing, any disadvantage "STD" claims by having it on a streaming, "STD"'s pilot was nationally broadcast, so those are the real #'s. Point is Kurtzman would have been thrilled to get the #'s Enterprise was getting. Little did they know.

[@timothyhiggins8934]

@@paulnicholson5997 if std was NOT a prequel and set maybe 1 or 200 years after the ds9-tng-voy era it would have made far more sense. With the spore drive and all.

[@johnburns9634]

@@timothyhiggins8934 How long until the end of the writers strike?

[@rickm9244]

When Star Trek got into the DS9 timeline I personally (even when I was a kid/teenager) thought it was strange that Starfleet didn't have an "army branch". So when the MACOs popped up in Enterprise I was like "yes!" as it makes prefect sense to have people trained for that roll. In DS9 you would have a few Starfleet people running around trying to take a whole planet. I just always found that so funny. I know it was more to do with budgets and special affects. But still it was silly and never really worked with me. The only sci-fi setting to get it right is Warhammer 40k. As in warfare on the scale that would be needed to take planets and keep them under control.

[@kirkbolas4985]

I always have looked at the MACOS as the ship’s compliment of Marines as they’re raison d’être.

[@nonya1366]

X-Com vs Space Pirates, a match made in heaven.

[@Tallacus]

Even back in the ToS era, Roddenberry did include Federation Marines, which alot of people seem to have forgotten about and just merged them into StarFleet Security overall

[@RJALEXANDER777]

Perhaps another way to distinguish the pragmatic but still civilised nature of ToS era Starfleet in comparison to the idealistic, pacifistic and complacent Starfleet of TNG.

[@davidmiddleton7958]

There is an old term "boots on the ground!" These soldiers were an elite force. The MACOS would be involved in ground recon, sabotage, hostage rescue etc.

[@MrAndyBearJr]

I have a theory that the MACO's evolved into the Starfleet ship security and the away team protection arm. Considering what The Federation faced over the decades following its initial formation, Terrans had some hard, lessons that snapped them out of their initial naivete. So they were most likely a facet of Starfleet that was integral to its survival and success. We get a glimpse of that necessity in ST: Enterprise.

[@bloodysimile4893]

One thing Enterprise show did better than others is giving Humanity its own identity compare to other shows (TNG being the worst) where humanity is blank slate and professional while every other alien race had their culture and idea and goals. Sure all of the shows have great individual/family human characters and conflict to tell but describing overall. Humanity is red coat fraction in Star Trek. What is Humanity culture compare to Vaculans, Romulans, Klingons, and best culture: Cardassins. Thanks to DS9, I know more about their society than any other race in Star Trek.

[@travisgames6608]

I think it's an in universe problem when it comes to ground combat in ST.

[@xunheilvsnipezx3324]

The Origins of MACOS it the US Marine Corps. Why would star fleet need ground pounders skilled in ground combat? Why don't navy personnel storm beaches? Starfleet have always been shipborn betas, well with the exception of Worf, maybe he has been extremely humanized for a Klingon.

[@nicholaswalsh4462]

Starfleet has long needed a dedicated defensive force.

[@TheLAGopher]

Starfleet started as an exploration agency The United Earth Space probe Agency. It was more akin to NASA than a navy. Overtime it had to assume Law Enforcement and paramilitary duties as the only Earth government agency dealing with Earth colonies and interests of world. The MACOs grew from the Earth government seeing there were aggressive alien races out there and a growing concern that the Vulcans could not be relied upon to mediate hostile contacts with those alien societies. Earth needed a dedicated military force just in case the expanding human presence in the alpha quadrant lead to a conflict with another power.

[@Marinealver]

Ah yes MACO, which was there at the start and not made up for Enterprise, Just like Section 31 which wasn't made up for DS9. You see they were so good at hiding you didn't notice them in TNG!

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

"You leave *damned* small 👣, Colonel." "I must be slipping, Senator. The *idea* is to leave *NO* footprints at *ALL*." --- C.S. Claremont.

[@pixelforge4858]

haha. i just finished enterprise again a week ago. and i was thinking about what happened to this unit. also wanted to say the fight between reed and hayes was very good.

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

Starfleet was trying to be a UN.. a united federation, where members from ALL countries served... But all planets also had "security forces". Troops of their own... So while you would have starfleet ships you would also have Andorians defense ships, Vulcan exploratory vessels. Earth sort of turned into somewhat of a neutral ground... with again, all species contributing to earths defense.... So the idea of earth also having a human only defense force like the other races did... would have been seen as bad form. The concept of the maco's was doomed once the federation was formed because... Bureaucracy wouldn't allow earth to have a non starfleet defense force.

[@TK199999]

Most fans think the Kizinti depredator/slaver fleets of in your case a single clan. Were probably Warp 3 (old scale) ships, but as you mentioned very low in number, which drove the develop of the Warp 3 and later Warp 5 engine. Leading to at least 2 border wars between Kizinti clans and Earth, by the time of ENT. This was one of the abandoned plot lines for ENT (with it being the Earth/Kizinti war, not the conflict with the Xindi) and its a shame because the Kizinti could have solved so many problems of the early days of Earth's Starfleet.

[@BathrobeKeck]

SEALS, SAS, and Spetznaz all in one? MACOs are *scary* badasses.

[@jdgindustries2734]

You said 14:20 "Humans didn't get to warp 2 until 2200"... Then why was Archer flying a Warp 5 engine in 2150?

[@hexmachine8263]

I wish we could get a little more of the federation marines from star trek 5. I know it's not the best movie, but I thought they were a cool idea.

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

For whatever it's worth--- I rather enjoyed "The Final Frontier". (I know, I KNOW. 😏 {Let me save you some trouble...} ) "Well, it's worth NOTHING, but thank you." --- R.J. Freeman.

[@pauln6917]

The United States Marine Corps is part of the U.S. Navy. The U.S.M.C. is touted as a separate Branch, but really gets their orders from the CNO 4 Star Admiral.

[@ThatEnglishGent]

I'm glad you address the "Independent Mars" trope because I've noticed it a lot too and it's never made any logical sense to me. Why Mars would become so technically advanced that it can hold off the entire economic and manufacturing powerhouse of an entire untied planet is beyond me. Equally Mars does not and likely would never be able to build up any form of infrastructure capable enough of surviving a war either outright or through attrition. Martian independence is an American fantasy, as you pointed out, that really doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.

[@johnpatz8395]

In my head cannon MACOs we’re sort of a special forces of Earth, and thus full military, yet those manning earth’s starships were more of a quasi-military/paramilitary, but of course are more fitted and trained for exploration than combat, especially small unit combat tactics. Additionally the MACOs we’re likely a left over from the formation of united earth, as massive combined arms units were no longer needed, but highly trained units, more powerful, better trained and equipped than regular police forces would be needed on occasion, and of course these smaller units would be much less likely to be eliminated, as once the units were in place, keeping them manned, and in place, would be relatively inexpensive. Honestly, the only reason a group like this wouldn’t have existed by the time of the OG Trek series is because ST writers hadn’t come up with the idea yet. If the Trek timeline existed in real life I find it highly unlikely that the MACOs would have been eliminated, and instead there would be a detachment of them aboard every Star Fleet vessel, especially any outside the Sol system, and a few other that had considerable defenses in place. The reasoning is very simple, every “generation” of Trek series shows frequent hostile encounters, on planets, on Star Fleet starships and of course boarding of possibly hostile vessels. Using regular Star Fleet security in those cases would be like the USA sending police officers to fight the Taliban.

[@deamondeathstone1]

Interesting video, but for all I know Earth ships could still have MACO's. I seem to remember mention of local defence forces during the dominion war, so Human worlds having their own National Guard type defence fleet with MACO's doing the Starfleet security type role wouldn't be out of the question.

[@pauln6917]

You know Marines aboard ship are gunners, ammo handlers, damage control, fire fighters, corpsman, and communications. They are not just sitting in a cabin doing nothing when a ship is fighting.

[@loganholmberg2295]

Marines would make sense in star fleet though. Even today's navies doing patrols and such use marines to board ships, security and protect landed swabbies. Marines also don't do nothing on ships. They are expected to work damage control parties and other duties aboard ships. There would allot of value in having a quick reactionary force on large starships. Even in today's peace marines are kept quite busy on pirate patrols, boarding actions for smuggling, etc. I think starlet would have had need of proper trained teams like marines. They are more then just a landing force in a modern navy.

[@TheLAGopher]

According to Star Trek Beyond (which even though in the Kelvin timeline shares the same Enterprise era history as the prime timeline) the MACOs saw a lot of combat during the Romulan War. How this could have happened if both sides never saw each other face to face and no human knew what a Romulan looked like, could be because the war required a rapid and massive expansion of Statfleet. It appears Starfleet had no academy in place at the time. Starfleet as the United Earth Space Probe Agency was more akin to NASA with personnel being recruited from other earth institutions such as Stanford University for Captain Archer, Florida State for Trip, and the Royal Navy for Malcom. There was no means for Starfleet to crank out officers in massive numbers. The solution was using MACOs who were an actual United Earth military organization that had a recruiting system for large numbers of officers and enlisted personnel. Starfleet turned to MACOs personnel to augment Starfleet crews of the expanded fleet because they were more needed there than for ground operations. As part of this plan, MAROs officers were given command of Starfleet ships due to the lack of experienced Starfleet command grade officers that could be promoted to Captain. The arraignment was done as an emergency war measure only. After the war, United Earth United with other powers like the Vulcans and Andorians to form the UFP with Starfleet obsorbing the military personnel of non Earth forces. Just as Andorian and Vulcan officers were given Starfleet commissions to integrate them, so to were MACOs Officers when that organization was disbanded.

[@RavenStorm332]

they were a united earth military unit that was disbanded because when the federation was formed they felt that the MACO units gave off the wrong message of "peace" that the federation was pushing though storywise for star trek I think that the MACOs could have been trained to operate small fighter ships and then there's their ground military training that could have been expanded to include boarding tactics and fighting to take over enemy ships and steal them to use reverse engineer

[@brightlord-ov7cm]

I don't see why Star Trek didn't have military heavy-minded type people in charge instead, that always made me think the future people on Earth were dumb as dirt for not having a truly dedicated military for the benefit of the planet and its people. They made M.A.C.O.'s look weak when they did show them.

[@adamm.6595]

I always took MACOs as being the leftover thinking of Earth and the standard soldier mentality etc. Understandable that as the ideology of SF "peaceful coexistence" took hold, the idea of "combat soldiers" is frowned upon, seeing those as expecting war, or giving credence to go to war. But with as many conflicts that SF seemed to find themselves in from inception, one would wonder why SF didn't at least have a branch that specialized in combat tactics, strategies, and training (soldiers). It didn't need to be a large branch, but considering SF size, a few thousand wouldn't have hurt, even if only used as a forward force to support ship/planetary security, sharing what they know to create better defenses (an ODST-type etc). S-31 seemed to be like this, except they exist in the shadows never seemed large enough to be supportive in this nature. I always took SF Security to be more patrol LEO types than actual soldiers. I understood the Dominion War as having SF needing to relearn how to soldier, and the early loss numbers would reflect that until educated. If I am wrong, apologies. Guess I just watched these differently.

[@themeaningoflifeexpert]

They all left after tpol cracked Amanda's shoulder bone

[@711desmond]

I imagine the maco’s as more of a homeland security mixed with black ops kind of thing, not every country’s remaining military slammed into one but a kind of peacekeeping force formed like 10 years before the mars colonies existed that kind of lost use after the federation was founded Edit: like “oh you can have fun with your star ships were going to make sure San Francisco doesn’t get blown up by terrorists”

[@davidreeves4556]

In realty I think they were introduced to mirror real life and a more militant or hawkish U.S world outlook.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Yeah post 2001

[@sgt_s4und3r54]

Okay, real talk. MACOs have a lot in common with the Marine Corps than you think. Marines of the USA tend to use different weapons than the US Army. In looks you can't tell unless you know what to look for. Historically the Maines got Army left overs. Today the Marines still use a mix of M4s and M16s depending. Army has primarily adopted the M4. If I remember correctly the MACO rifle wasn't someting new as it was plasma based. The tech is older than the phas pistols. It wasn't useful to Starfleet because it didn't have a stun function. You could lower settings to reduce damage to target but not stun. Since the phas pistol was a standard issue to Starfleet, then it could be argued that the MACO rifles are older tech. Something lying around and pushed into service out of necessity. Let's also look at lading craft. A lot of those are operated by the Navy but are Technically for Marine use because the Navy has no occupying force(SEALS are not an occupying force) . Sometimes the Army does amphibious landing but overall most landings are done by Marines and are with vehicles that the Army does not have. Marines also provide a securing force on Navy ships. They will act as guards aboard ships or in some cases have manned certain ship board weapon systems like the M2 50cal. Even then the MACOs perform more like 2 specific units that both the NAVY and USMC have. They behave more like MARSOC and SEALS in their training. Those Units do get better more up to date weapon systems and were at the time Enterprise aired. Each of these units is a Special Forces unit. Meaning they use different and specialized techniques not taught to average ground pounder. Also check out the USMC Air Corps. Its a mix of older F18s and Harriers. If you're British the Harrier will throw you because its a Navy asset in Brtish service but here its strictly a USMC asset for ground support role. The F35B is replacing them though much like Britsh Harriers are. In conclusionn, its not that MACOs are nothing like the USMC or Royal Marines but rather the evolution of them as modern militaries look to streamline logistical chains in times of conflict.

[@s0ulshot]

Star fleet security is enough, because star ships have all kind of tech that makes ground wars pointless unless you're holding position which is extremely important to both you and your enemy, and can't be beamed out or destroyed like we see once in the DS9. Dominion had military force which also relied heavily on the security concept, but more as an oppressor to keep the status quo on their planets and keep the resources coming. Specialized military ground troops are just obsolete concept in the Star Trek Universe.

[@ADobbin1]

The MACO's were the marines that had the training to do away missions dirtside. You can't do a tv show with random marine guys so the MACO's had to go as a concept from star trek cannon. This is how we have starship captains and the entire command staff leaving their ships and risking a loss of command during every tv episode ever. Throw in some random expendable red shirts and some plot armour to protect said command staff and we have an episode. In reality the MACO's would be doing all the away missions in power armour and the captain, XO and the rest of the command staff would remain on the ship sending their underlings to do the dangerous stuff like responsible commanders.

[@noanswer1864]

If they'd have made it to Romulus for the ground war, they'd have been kept. Crew, be they Battlemech, Starship, or Areo-jock always forget that winning means someone got out and either grabbed, or shot something.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

I believe the Maco's were in many ways seen as an oppressive force in pre-federation earth... a kind of Private-Army of the Pro-Vulcan faction, seen possibly as the military wing of the Pro-Cochrane forces, or possibly the front of some other earth based interest group... (whether that's truly so or just how they were viewed is unclear) but I believe, once the (fairly anti-Vulcan) Starfleet becomes powerful under Cpt.Archer, the Maco's get disbanded partially as a power move on Starfleet's part... especially, after the Romulan war further increases Starfleet's political position.

[@GRIGGINS1]

I think the Dominion War showed why the Federation needs a Dedicated Marine Corps. And Dedicated Special Warfare Branch. Sometimes you need boots on the ground to protect people.