what happens if two people kill someone or each other simultaneously? (in tf2)

Music: Cave Story 3D - Hero's End
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FAQ:
Q: blue dot?
A: projectiles come out from the right side of the screen rather than perfect center, therefore I placed a dot to remind me of it.

[@smthngbd]

the logical endpoint of the rocket paradox saga

[@karlbischof2807]

wait how?

[@mlgallan6591]

What is that?

[@Samwow]

giving this comment the thousandth like is a feeling of power that i can't put into words

[@smthngbd]

@@Samwow i can't believe it got 1k likes, i haven't been checking

[@GewelReal]

@ "may" RIP

[@shounic]

to be honest this video was really weird to make because it felt like i was writing a report and just compiling scientific evidence. i hope it was still entertaining though!

[@Lico5512.]

That line "in typical source engine fashion, there are 4 answers" was worth it just by itself

[@deadchannelunsubscribe3105]

Very entertaining stuff, high quality too.

[@epicxiphos8269]

I wonder if it's possible that in any of the cases, the kill credit was determined by the way the code computed rather then something inherit in valve's priority assessment? Like maybe your code which allegedly carried out two commands simultaneously actually did so in a determined sequence unknown to you? I'm not sure how you set up these experiments, just a thought.

[@theloaf6063]

What if the bots join the server at the same time?

[@Blendedasian]

It was recommended to me by youtube and it's really good. Clean presentation, concise and compact explanation, art style on point. This is a sign of more awesome things to come.

[@itaybron]

God Ross Scott was right in his quote, Source engine really is a tower of duct tape.

[@ShadowHunter120]

At least its not gamebryo

[@ConnorShea]

I dunno, this doesn't seem that bad

[@admiraltonydawning3847]

However, the content relying on the Source engine is STILL NOT DEAD!

[@salsamancer]

This is basically what happens when you have a lot of engineers working on the same long term project without proper designs and documentation

[@innos3997]

nochtczar Kinda like first Read Dead Redemption.

[@mikeytrains1]

“4 answers” Impossible, anything that Valve makes cannot have anything above two.

[@fritzlancastor277]

Bruh moment

[@kingnoob3503]

Its still not 3

[@babypupa3]

Above 2 and less than 4

[@johannes4123]

Answer 1 Answer 2 Answer 2 Episode 1 Answer 2 Episode 2

[@Ender_Fox1616]

it was 2x2

[@benjakill]

fun fact: built sentries are managed server side completely (that's the reason the wrangler has a small aimbot), and maybe that's why the sentries destroy each one at the same time

[@prototyp60]

Yeah, that's the reason why I play engineer when I have shitty internet

[@bakery3471]

Benjamín Riquelme hmm good observation

[@DewaKrishna_]

@@prototyp60 wasn't the engineer actually built around people who had poor connection back in the day? (Early quake-tf)

[@mahbubmaleksyed5301]

David Jenne also the sentry auto aims so you don’t have to

[@lev7509]

@@DewaKrishna_ Engie was for people who want to be helpful and get kills without having the typical FPS abilities. Pyro was for poor connections.

[@PeaseMakerYT]

This is some advanced Source spaghetti right here

[@marsmonke4160]

Source spaghet

[@bigbob754]

Yeet

[@terrastalker8189]

But.

[@MoundN]

No. This has virtually nothing to do with spaghetti code. The measures any engine takes are pretty much equal when it comes to these kinda conflicts and it almost always ends up favoring the player who joined last just like in certain games where its possible to achieve 1st place by multiple players, the one who achieved it last is favored.

[@OG-jc2vl]

Ку писмейкер

[@pphrph]

damn now every one has a valid case on why they died

[@naufalr.9521]

Nice profile pic

[@Nugcon]

lmao

[@witchhunter7709]

*I am your 100th like*

[@pphrph]

I think this is the most likes on a comment before

[@pphrph]

On one of my comments*

[@neoxenoz3262]

Bots were harmed in the making of this video.

[@ImJustJAG]

Then a KZbin bot had to review the video before uploading... Watching it's own kind being slaughtered over and over.

[@LuckyStarTF2]

It's not like something useful in the game, but still interesting for curious ones. Like for bots naming!

[@shounic]

oh god please stop looking at them i literally spend more time researching through wikipedia and current events trying to come up with interesting names than setting up the bots to slam into each other ;___;

[@loserx8910]

Well the demo charge might be useful

[@pandananda8220]

So many times ive heard my sniper go off at the same moment i end up dying, but the person o shoot at doesnt die. Is this the same thing as the video?

[@loserx8910]

@@pandananda8220 no theres a delay between you hearing things and things actually happening.

[@Manuel-ek2cf]

Weeb

[@whalesoup8914]

“in tf2” was put at the end of the title, so at first I thought it was about real life

[@Kebbab.213]

Same

[@70sman]

I wonder what would happen if 2 people killed each other at the exact same time irl. Would nobody be prosecuted since the culprits are both dead?

[@kozlorog]

2:55 "Sometimes he eats from the left, sometimes the right" *WHOLESOME*

[@N.06]

hungrey boi

[@SurnameName]

heavy is a nazbol confirmed

[@wolfcl0ck]

"In classic source fashion, I found 4 possible outcomes." God what is wrong with this forsaken engine

[@colinhays3456]

EVERYTHING

[@colinhays3456]

we're cursed with this

[@apollogeist8513]

Nothing wrong with the engine per se, just inconsistencies with TF2. I'd say it's likely that stalemate handling was implemented separately for both hitscan and projectile weapons and since these kinds of situations rarely ever happen they probably didn't concern themselves with checking.

[@jacplac97]

It's old

[@gh0st555]

Spaghetti

[@connordlthegamer2980]

"the first zoo keeper" "the second zoo keeper" "harambe" lol

[@Krcun774]

*You have been invited to join the harambe club*

[@humanbean9370]

“Sentry guns built at the same time will cause them to die together” That’s kind of poetic ngl

[@titansjojo1445]

That demo charge behavior is actually useful to know.

[@bruschetta7711]

I agree, but why it works in such a strange way the sorce engine

[@Thornskade]

I'm pretty sure whoever has the longest charge on impact is the one who deals damage so it's no more or less useful to know than hitscan credit. You're very unlikely to charge at each other at the exact same server tick.

[@indeepjable]

Wait Really?

[@Preposter]

@@indeepjable Yea. Two demoknights going at it

[@iLxdySanaz]

"killing you is full time job now" - heavy

[@Xeller_real]

proceeds to snap pyro necks

[@Arslan35]

@@Xeller_real tf2 - taunt fortress 2

[@CJ-ji5mc]

"If you look at which sandvich isn't consumed by Gaben" I love this sentence so much

[@davidparsons9361]

...if two flares hit a target simultaneously, do both flares crit, neither, or does the flare of lesser priority crit?

[@silverblue73]

You enter a hidden mini-game against the other pyro

[@agilitykissa]

I think that the flare of lesser priority crits, but since we are talking Source Spaghetti, idk

[@wrpen99]

Both would make no sense, since at least one is definitely hitting a non-burning target. Most logical would be least priority, but it could be neither too, depending on how the game checks for whether someone's on fire. Actually it's probably whoever has the first name alphabetically.

[@shrekanator122]

Player's 1 wallet > Player's 2 wallet Gaben: Player 1 wins.

[@chickennuggetman2593]

"Everything about this is completely equal" *scouts are flipped from each other*

[@ivanbarancev4646]

What if we have 2 bots: a scout and a medic bot from opposing teams. What decides which action will be taken first: Uber pop or scout scatter shot?

[@epicxiphos8269]

honestly from the amount of medics who die saying they clicked, im gonna guess the scout

[@opi2869]

I actually do some practice mode on easy difficulty and the medic pops the uber frame perfectly if you deal less damage then 150 hp or just simply 150 hp. It can be annoying ngl

[@dashyz3293]

It's the same as mvm bot pop,

[@ivanbarancev4646]

@@dashyz3293 not exactly what I asked about. My question is about 'Who gets a priority from the server'

[@9another632]

Idk, but i remember that in degroot we both killed each other with sword and sandman

[@Tomxai]

This actually explains why my friend always beats me on fair 1v1 melee

[@jakobknecht7654]

It doesn't, though. You can't consistently hit this timing, no matter how good you are. It's more likely that it's ping related or just one person being better than the other.

[@LuckyStarTF2]

@@jakobknecht7654 It was a joke dude :D

[@Thornskade]

@@LuckyStarTF2 Are you a mind reader?

[@LuckyStarTF2]

@@Thornskade no, but I do have a bit of logic :)

[@Thornskade]

@@LuckyStarTF2 You don't. It's not logical to assume that everyone who makes a silly/stupid comment was only joking.

[@R0hban]

One the other note, cave story’s birthday was just yesterday. (For me at least.) I like how you used music for it.

[@doomerrose7509]

I cannot stop playing that game on my DS, I think I've completed it like, over 20 times now.

[@chell854]

Maybe the random ones are because of air drag randomness, kinda like the slight difference between stock pipes and iron bomber pipes

[@thekidsatno80]

Don't you mean you found 5 answers? 1245.

[@B----------------------------D]

Gaben would be proud.

[@taltoskieron]

1! 2! 5! Three, sir.

[@Blendedasian]

That would look great on an april fools patch note! "-fixed alyx clipping through the cell doors -optimized models for combine hunters -updated all number inputs and outputs to the new valve numeric system"

[@illusoghiaccio]

Don't you mean ?

[@Buccarado]

actually it's 1,2,Alyx,4,5

[@eenspammailspam7285]

My guess is that the server loops through all players that shoot whenever they shoot, the ones that joined first just happened to be closer to the start of the list of players so their hitscan shots will start and instantly resolve before other players. Because projectiles have to be checked every tick they go into another list, because the player who joined first will resolve his action first he will have his projectile added, then the second player will have his projectile added to the front of the list and they just check everything in the list front to back every tick.

[@thunderspark1536]

Fascinating, source spaghetti truly is a terrifying thing.

[@SioxerNikita]

@@thunderspark1536 This isn't "source spaghetti" frankly. This is a relatively simple way to handle hitscan and projectiles. Of all the videos, this video showcases pretty decent game design frankly.

[@thunderspark1536]

@@SioxerNikita we do a little whooshing

[@thetarr2]

Once, someone killed me, and I got dominated. But I killed him at the same time, which resulted in me getting revenge on a domination that didnt even last for 3 seconds.

[@lev7509]

How long did it last? Less than 1 second?

[@antknee0]

I love how quality and interesting this is, the editing has such a nice aesthetic and keeps me watching, i wish I could edit like you

[@Senku05]

This teaches me more about physics than any class I've ever had

[@RamkrishanYT]

*programming and computers

[@maxine3978]

@@RamkrishanYT AKA how NOT to code a game engine

[@CHEH_tf]

By viewing the video again, I found a secret that no one paid attention to: at 3:03, it's not the regular Heavy-exclusive that is used, but the 199$ one with the robot instead of the pot. That's a nice touch there shounic, saying that gaben is fat and rich :D

[@WeirdKid361]

The more likely reason is the was the taunt got into the game, which was that Gaben loved a Sous Vide cooker so much, he did an ad for it, and added the taunt featuring the sous vide to the game

[@trashcant1522]

Summary: First joined: hitscan, taunt, sappers, demo short range charge and manntreads Last joined: most projectiles and long range demo charge Random: sandvich, cleaver and wrap assasin ball All: sentry

[@notlone7721]

What if hitscan weapon and huntsman hit at the same time?

[@yoelc6009]

That would be difficult to calculate. Also because of the way math works in computers, it would be sort of random (floating point numbers, look it up its interesting)

[@everydaysniper9390]

It takes a screenshot.

[@dustinbrueggemann1875]

Race condition in computing basically guarantees that the hitscan would occur first. Hitscan weapons perform their detection logic on a pure raycast and only need to detect intersection with a single face of a single hitbox. Projectile weapons have to determine the intersection of two hitboxes before damage can be confirmed, which is an inherently slower and more cumbersome calculation. By the time the huntsman arrow had confirmed detection, even on the same simulation tick, the hitscan weapon would've already applied its damage.

[@insertnamehere6096]

1:11 "fire1" and the red pyro's name is "amazon" I love this channel now

[@colinhays3456]

tbh i do too , was going to comment on it

[@bobbyferg9173]

The best part about these videos are the bot names (my personal favorites are at 1:22)

[@TheAfricanRedHead]

Perfect now I have more to complain about in the game.

[@MrBump2]

This is great, reminds me of 3kliksphilip but for TF2 instead of CSGO, and I mean that in the best possible way.

[@literallyafuckingspoon8801]

3kliks also made a video on the same subject but on csgo

[@imallsoupedup]

Simple explosion radiuses were probably among the first code added, along with simple projectile physics, so I think that that may be why stickies are category 1. My theory is that Valve is made up of 3.5 developers (Jeremy made some of the code, but ever since the air blast bug, they stopped trusting potted plants).

[@MiloWildfire]

5. They both die and their forgotten brother steps in and takes over their company

[@Talon323]

So THATS why I always loose sniper duels. The enemy snipers joined the server first!

[@Yikes_YT]

1:19 “fire1” killing the amazon. Interesting choice

[@EmApex]

I'd guess the reason stickies fall into the hitscan category is because explosions in source are basically just short range hitscan lines being fired out from the point of detonation in every direction, it's really interesting to see that everything that is hitscan based falls neatly into one category and (almost) everything that is entity/projectile based falls into another though

[@doomerrose7509]

*I hear that cave story song in the background of the whole video.*

[@bukachell]

I like how you give the bots creative and funny names

[@itaybron]

What if source is really a platform for observing quantum mechanics? 🤔🤔🤔

[@liptonicetea1813]

Actually, quantum mechanics forbids this

[@toaster9922]

I like the (in tf2) disclaimer in the video.

[@sirultim8643]

0:51 Bahai’s trying to SAP the same building (captions) 0:56 thanh kills 1:25 *dating sticky bombs* 1:38 and man shreds There are more just watch with captions

[@adampatterson1197]

I don't think the "random" group of weapons are actually random, i think it has to do with how the source engine calculates drag, and unlike the pipes and rockets, the balls and thee guillotine start at a different offset each throw

[@ethanhampl1520]

Yes... that's what makes it random Adam Patterson

[@JacobKinsley]

2:04 blu team be like "what bot?"

[@Eric4bz]

If you join a server early, play hitscan. If you join a server late, play projectile. If you join a server, just have fun.

[@snifey2233]

Valve is like apple they revolutionised our everyday living into what it is and also Valve is the OG of 00s revolutionised tech..

[@vvccrr]

0:57 "s1mple" "blyat2" i died

[@jmlee737]

Definitely that there will be a chat as following: “We traded”

[@probrobosnian]

Gabe aged a couple of years But it looks like he aged 20-30 years

[@missingp4alt]

2:36 the scout just a-posing while fading lmao

[@YTM100]

*sees title* Me: finally some good fucking content *Sees "in TF2"* Me: we've been tricked, we've been backstabbed and we've been quite possibly, bamboozled.

[@williamamory6358]

3:52 Stickybombs are hitscan confirmed

[@able_archer01]

Consistency must be a difficult word to spell for Valve employees.

[@Man-Options]

"IN TRUE SOURCE FASHION THERE ARE FOUR ANSWERS TO THIS QUESTION" has to be the best thing I've ever heard in relation to good old Source S P A G H E T T I🍝

[@zxopink]

Makes sense, the server has a list of players and runs it in order of the list, taking care of the first one who joined each frame. Physics picks a random player cause it takes care of the projectile and not the player actions, it takes care of all the physics at once and not player by player using (what I assume) threads to take care of players by when they've joined and filled the player list

[@wojtekpolska1013]

demo charge is something most realistic to happen in real game i guess, nice video

[@lordsaveme643]

Maybe similar with the sentries, maybe making 2 bots spawn at the same time in spawnpoints right next to eachother would be what you’re looking for. Or maybe im just stupid lmao

[@elliottxanter2324]

Gabe had a real breakdown at the end of this wow

[@asuna9162]

2:56 shounic just made a simulation of whats going on at valve

[@YourAverageBrody]

1:27 BLU demo's sticky also hits the ground later. Just thought I'd point that out

[@triggerhurt]

okay youtube deleted my comment before i could post it so i'll give you the short version of my thoughts: physically simulated projectiles like grenades, cleavers, stunballs, jars, etc. draw some properties (and likely code) from DT_BaseProjectile and DT_BaseGrenade. grenade launchers seemed consistent, but bear in mind that you fired them point blank, where the hitbox of the target is already in contact with the projectile as soon as it spawns. i would suggest doing the same thing with the other projectiles, as well as firing the grenade launcher from a distance. i'm pretty sure you fired the grenades point blank because you know they tumble randomly, but most projectiles do that as well. additionally, i would be interested to know the entity indices of each projectile in all of these tests because the entity with the lowest index usually wins. entity indices could be applied in a seemingly random order if entities are being created or deleted idly around the map or by the server.

[@LincolnWiseDidMyMom]

This is both wasting my life, and answering questions I never new I had, at the same time

[@black4halo]

I will say the first one makes sense for why late joiners seem to stay in the back until more new people

[@snakeboy2017]

What about Assist Kills? Like when someone is killed by a Heavy pocketed by 2 medics, or a guy getting killed by someone else after getting Mad-Milked by two Scouts at once?

[@keineangabe4434]

In all my years I had actually a match where this was relevant. A enemy sniper hit me with the conscientious objector while I hit him with the huntsmen at the same time. We both died at the same time.

[@BitTheByte]

Thats.... not relevant. The only reason why both of you died was because the projectile was ALREADY in the air when his melee hit. Of course, hitscan will be faster than projectiles, even at point blank. You both didnt fire at the same time. You fired first, he fired less than a fraction of a second later. In reality, feel free to set up a test on a private server, and you will see hitscan does indeed win, before the hitscan person can die. Notice in almost ALL cases, only 1 players actions get read if that happen at the same time.

[@keineangabe4434]

@@BitTheByte Might be but unfortunately I won't be able to check it out. I had to stop playing TF2 after the last bot-wave hit. Made the game impossible to play. Especially since I can't get my F2P friends to join anymore, the whole "can't talk" stuff is just too much.

[@BitTheByte]

@@keineangabe4434 Bro. Community servers are more alive than ever. There is no reason to play casual.

[@epicxiphos8269]

pugs are gonna take forever to start now as all the soldier mains wait as long as possible. what have you done

[@camphorwood]

Nice touch to add the (in tf2)

[@Collisto2435]

About the stickybombs. You detonated them after they stuck to the surface, which might change how the source engine views them. I get the feeling you'd get different results of detonated mid-air.

[@Nugcon]

Lmao the title got cropped out and I didn't read the tf2 part

[@oneistheloneliestnumber7026]

I can see why sticky dets are in option 1, because it kinda goes along with hitscan in that you press a button and it instantly does a thing

[@TheGreenTaco999]

This actually greatly impacts Demo Knight-only servers

[@ErisEntropy]

So basically anything that's instant damage is prio for the person who joined first. Stickies may be projectiles, but they don't do impact damage. The explosion damage has to be decided between. If they were impact then they'd likely fit into either 2 or 3.

[@insertname3293]

I can explain that, but first we need to learn about *_Parrael Universes_*

[@ProtoForte]

i once got a kill with a sniper riffle after i died, and it gave me the huntsman achievement of killing someone posthumously.

[@zmaxx123321]

3:10 this could also explain something that I once saw in a tf2 game, where a scout destroyed a sentry and also died by the sentry.

[@pieofchart]

This has happened to me various times. I died. The other person died too. That was it.

[@Goldenleyend]

I swear these priorities fuck me over every time

[@multistuff9831]

The other day a demoknight and I killed each other with melee at the same time, the kill went both ways.

[@ViIvaNunner]

dangit the "downgrade to satellite internet' line got me

[@AlfieSR]

This is all entirely guessing on my part, but: Guillotine and Wrap Assassin I suspect are due to the bleed effects - if the bleed proc-damage applies in the same tick, it applies to one and if not, it applies the other. I have a feeling that if the proc damage is being applied in the same tick as the hit damage, it's actually winding up being delayed ever so slightly - enough to give the ball that didn't proc the extra damage in the same tick to supersede it. Sentry gun being both is also seemingly understandable - the server can afford to hold up on those kills because they're not having to respond to following movements. The sentry can "die" and be told to sit down and be quiet until it gets an opportunity to actually die, and if it's in the middle of trying to fire, it can still get that last bullet off as a result rather than needing to be interrupted just to make sure the player knows they're dead as soon as possible. The charge I suspect is due to the calculations for critical damage distance- but the sandvich I couldn't begin to hazard a guess. Stickies I think you might find work similar to sentries - once they're stuck on a wall, they're no longer damage originating from the player but instead damage originating from an entity controlled by the player instead. Maybe see if airbursting them fits the expected second category instead?

[@a0001521]

Conclusion: if you have a slow computer, use only projectile weapons

[@JustFuNeverminD]

It all makes sense, I was never bad, they just joined the server first and therefore had an unfair advantage... or after... or literally just luckier than me when rolling RNG... I WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM

[@henke37]

Of course, "joined first" is short hand for "has lowest player slot".

[@StyxDescension]

This is why I fell in love with Rainbow 6 Siege, I like that in that game if you and an enemy click each others' heads, you both die

[@trajankhan]

I like this video, but I have a few gripes with it. 1. Clips of weapons being used go on for too long. This one's pretty minor, but I thought I should mention it. 2. I don't think you had to list all the projectile weapons, you could've just said that all/most projectile kills prioritize the person who joined last. You don't have to listen to what I say, but I just wanted to give my two cents.

[@snottytoe6957]

i love the quiet screams of the scout being smacked by two bats at the same time.

[@bucketofchicken8325]

1:40 Gaben has died from rocks and Is being real damn picky about his sandwiches 2:56

[@maskedrecruit4571]

A quick summary and explaination for you: Hitscan weapons tend to favor the player that joined the game first. Projectiles favor the player that joined the game last. Thrown objects are completely random. Now for some outliers, and how they work. The stickybombs favor the player that joins first. This is due to the fact that, while the sticky itself is a projectile, the detonation counts as a hitscan, due to it not creating any more projectiles. The sentry guns, when firing at eachother, will both kill eachother at the same time. This was possibly bevause the developers thought of two engineers fighting eachother with sentries, and didn't want to favor one player's sentry over another. The demoknight charges change based off of distance. At a short distance, it favors the player that joined first. At a longer distance, it favors the player that joined last. This one is a complete enigma to me. I suspect that the way this works is by deciding whether you're hitscan or a projectile based off of distance. At a short distance, you've only just started the charge, so it hasn't registered you as a projectile, but at longer distances, it has had enough time and you are moving fast enough to be registered as a projectile. I'm still not entirely sure about this though, so let's just say it's valve spaghetti code as always.

[@spagootest2185]

A straight to the point video with little to no bullshit. Thank you.

[@witchfinda]

Outcome 1: Hitscan weapons Outcome 2: Ammuntion projectiles Outcome 3: Rechargeable projectiles Outcome 4: Sentry guns The outliers of sticky bombs can be explained by the actual detonation technically being hitscan, as the bomb itself does no damage, but rather the triggered explosion. I have no explanation for demo's charge, that's a weird one

[@dashyz3293]

For the sandvich test, i think it's better to have both sandvich heavies throw it onto the floor such that they overlap perfectly, then tab as the hurt heavy walks over to see who gets the point. Very small nitpick, that's all.

[@Sillybutts]

This was a very informational and interesting video! I liked the editing too.

[@camthorn2088]

I remember years ago I was doing a 1v1 sniper duel with my friend on Hightower, he was down by the large healthpack and I was at the top of the tower, we both shot each other at the same time and saw our own bodies drop but we were alive (as in a corpse of myself spawned in and fell in front of me even though I was alive) and it said I killed him for me and he killed me for him. I wrote about this on a 3klisphilip video about what this video is about but in csgo and I just thought it would be interesting to share this

[@steakkpie5567]

Two hoovys guard way, one will give sandvich, other give ghost sandvich, eat wisely.

[@mahbubmaleksyed5301]

your channel is scenarios that dont matter but everyone wants to know the answer

[@solarflare9078]

The music in the description is incorrect. It's actually Cave Story 3D - Hero's End.