What I think about Hybrid Hornbows? (Don't watch if you cannot take the heat, I won't be nice here!)

[@agamagreen]

Well said! 👍 I have ordered a so called ‚hybrid bow‘ made in Indonesia, that has arrived beginning of March 2022. I have always seen the horn layer as decoration. The bow has been shot a few times since then and worked fine. End of August 2022 I have noticed small gaps between the horn layer and the fiberglass along one side of the bow (gaps depth between 1-5mm). In my humble opinion the reason is the very different behavior of horn and fiberglass with respect to humidity. The horn dries out- especially in dry climates like we have here in Germany (sometimes I measure around 20% rel. humidity vs. 80% rel. humidity in Indonesia). The fiberglass is not reacting to humidity as far as I can measure. Hence it’s clear, that the shrinking horn will cause high stress in the glue, connected to the stable fiberglass. If I would have thought about it, I could have imagined upfront 😁 The horn on the bow looks still beautiful, but isn’t beneficial for the performance- I‘m totally with Ronald. In my case I tried to fill the gaps at the edges with recommended epoxy. Of course I am unsure, if I was able to fill the gaps completely. Most likely not. 😉 Furthermore, I will wrap real sinew around critical spots to prevent the horn getting off. (Separating the sinew fibres will take me ages…) So, I‘m not yet done. When I have finished, I’ll show and make a short video about it… The question is: could the bowyers know the issues upfront? I think, it’s hard for the Indonesian bowyers to foresee, since they always have high humidity and the horn remains flexible. The customer feedback comes months later after the bow has been shipped and the Indonesian bowyers usually can’t simulate dry climate conditions… I can’t imagine, that an Indonesian bowyer is able to affort a climate chamber for testing and experimenting with other glues or horn layer thicknesses… In the end I think, the hybrid version of bows might only work, if the bow is kept in similar climate conditions and - as Ronald stated - the horn layer is thin.

[@bambooarchery]

Even in Malaysia, where we have the same humidity as Indonesia, the horn layers are also delaminating.

[@agamagreen]

@@bambooarchery Aha! That’s interesting! Then another effect is kicking in as well - that’s what you said about the bending behavior. 👍

[@bambooarchery]

@@agamagreen one of the reply (from Galileo Potato) seems to explain the glue problem well. Try to look for that.

[@agamagreen]

@@bambooarchery Hm… Galileo has experienced the combination wood/horn, but we don’t know yet about the combination wood/fiberglass/horn with Resorcinol. That someone could try… (I can’t 😁) I think, adding very thin layer (~1mm) of wood on the back and horn on the belly as decoration on fiberglass could be something to try. I‘m willing to store this experiment on my wall in dry conditions and feedback after 6 months and inbetween 😁

[@bambooarchery]

@@agamagreen fiberglass-wood-horn is more likely to succeed. Thickness and shape of the material will matter as well. Wood/bamboo have very low strain limit, putting them on the back of fiberglass is a very bad idea (worse than horn on belly of fiberglass). Since fiberglass is extremely strong, use only very thin like 0.2mm on the back to replace sinew, then glue to a wood core with epoxy. The wood is glued to the horn with animal/fish glue. 2mm of horn will be 10× the amount of fiberglass to balance the strength. This combination is more likely to work.

[@SuperBigsupa]

You’re the Man Ronald! The truth shall set them free and protect their wallets . And for the Hybrid Bowyers, make better quality bows or better quality disclaimers.🙏. That’s a shame knowing this now, because I think they have some pretty bows. The thing is , my prey/enemies won’t care how pretty my bow is.

[@jgw108]

yeah but the girl you invite over to your place to show off your shooting skills will be paying attention to your bow, and unless you're living in a remote area fighting off enemies fighting you with blowdarts I don't know who you plan to shoot with your bow.

[@SuperBigsupa]

@@jgw108if you need a bow to get a girl to your home then maybe you should take up another life choice bro. I only need my charm. Bless you bro and good luck with your pretty bow😉

[@takeshimizuho6680]

agree, i red an article on hornbows ( in this case ottoman ones) and there is written that a horn bow starts to make sense, efficiency wise at a drawweight of 80lbs + because from here on the strength of the bow will increase very much bit the limbthickness and weight will go up linear. So a Selfbow can be more effective on lower poundages just because its lighter in mass. Also agree on the „hybrid“ bows

[@robgardner4992]

The Truth is Ugly... Ronald out here laying out the facts. Love this guy

[@galileopotato167]

Hi I make arrows with whitetail deer antler inserts. I do this mainly to strengthen my nocks for carving shapes into them and for absorbing the impact of the bowstring. It also looks pretty. You mentioned that epoxy glue doesn't work that well with horn/antler, and you're right. One of the best modern glues to combine wood to antler is resorcinol glue/cascophen because, even though it's water based, it works excellently to bond the two and stays solid despite their oily qualities. It's considered the "gold standard" of wood glues for its ability to join wood to wood or horn/antler to wood. However, it is challenging to work with because it does not fill gaps like epoxy... it must be clamped well along all parts of its use, and the joinery must be excellent. If gaps are visible, sealing them with varnish (in my case spar urethane) tends to close those out well, but it takes several dips and sanding in-between. And there entails one of the main issues with epoxy because epoxy invites less than stellar craftsmanship to a device that undergoes massive amounts of stress. It is a very forgiving adhesive. Because epoxy is gap-filling, it hides a lot of mistakes and may convince the woodworker that their work, technique, and the characteristics of the layers of wood or whatever are acceptable for a high stress device, when in fact they might not be. Plus, epoxy can liquefy as low as 120⁰F and does not do too well with moisture. That spells trouble for bows that are meant to be used and not just hung up to decorate a wall. Resorcinol glue, on the other hand, does not do well to seal wood. I sealed some arrows with it, which was a mistake and a valuable lesson because wooden arrows require straightening, often with heat. This causes the wood to expand, and while sealing with a spar varnish would do well with expansion, it does not with resorcinol glue and causes tiny fractures and cracks to develop in the outside sealing layer if resorcinol is used to seal. Furthermore, even just the twisting/torque that the arrow experiences between you and the target can cause cracks in a sealant layer of resorcinol. So it's tricky to work with and I dont recommend it beyond use in putting horn inside the nock (if we're talking about their application to arrows. It's a glue intended for plywood and boats.) I'd be interested to see how it works with bows, but I don't think it would work well because they undergo lots of stress. Anyway, just wanted to bounce some ideas off the wall with you. Thanks for the video. It was enlightening and I learned a lot.

[@bambooarchery]

That's a very good experience/knowledge sharing. Thanks for writing that down.

[@Plasmaspy]

Iirc fishbladder glue is used in the making of traditional korean bows. I wonder if that has some additional benefit for bonding horn and wood.

[@galileopotato167]

@@Plasmaspy so I researched hide glue and its application to wood.. its main benefit is that it can be liquefied at about 120⁰F, like epoxy, with the intention of repairing the application or relayering the glue. This stems from a culture not long past that was very much focused on resourcefulness and investing in things that could be used and repaired until they were absolutely broken. Take leather shoes for example... when humans learned to mass produce shoes from rubber and plastics, the price of shoes went down, cordwainership and cobbling went by the wayside, and we learned to discard things much more readily, and that's due in part to mass produced shoes being the type that you cannot repair them once the soles go out. Such is with bows and arrows these days... if it breaks, it likely wasn't designed to be repaired, whereas a horn bow made during the preindustrial age was very much designed to be repaired with hide glue and heat until it became absolutely busted. And if you couldn't use a horn bow in certain temperatures, then you'd be using selfbows because that's what worked, and it worked well enough. It is on that note that fish bladder glue has as long a history of use as hide glue and is really beyond my knowledge, so I cannot talk about it much. I've never used it, either. I am reading, however, that the melting point of yellowfin tuna fish bladder gelatin is around 72.14⁰F. This makes me wonder what the melting point for sturgeon fish bladder glue or gelatin might be, as it appears to be the fish bladder glue that people cite frequently online, from my scanning. It does appear to have as high a tensile strength as hide glue. So, repairability and tensile strength are the immediate reasons I would assume that sturgeon fish bladder glue is the reason to use it.

[@bambooarchery]

@@galileopotato167 one particular reason that animal/fish glue work is because they behave like an emulsion. They are essentially oil that dissolve in water, mixing both harmoniously. Epoxy on the other hand is like oil separated from water and it just refuses to mix well.

[@jgw108]

love this, someone speaking truth. the retort of course might be where to draw the distinction, because by your logic, if carried forward without demarcation lines, why shoot traditional bows at all when compounds are the ultimate in efficiency. that said, I'd never consider dropping that kind of cash on a horn bow, I don't even want wood in my bows, I view the bow as a tool and a tool should be dependable.

[@bambooarchery]

Efficiency wise, compounds aren't much more efficient. They just pack far more stored energy so that the same efficiency gives you more nett energy transfer. That's also why they needed all those limbsavers and dampeners to absorb the excess energy. The biggest benefit of compound is more to do with ease of learning and getting precise with least effort (which makes the archer feel like a pro after learning to shoot for a day). Traditional on the other hand, feels more natural and relaxing, plus faster paced and less mechanical. Also the ironic determination to beat compounds with a trad setup.

[@kanato.archery]

You are absolutely right friend! For me the biggest problem is self-deception, if you like a "hybrid" bow for aesthetics that's fine, but you must assume that it's just that, aesthetics. And as you say, the horn layer should be very thin, providing only an aesthetic effect. I like hornbows, but if one day I buy one it will be because of the historical value that I find in it, I know for a fact that it will never be as efficient as a modern bow. But knowing how delicate and expensive they are, I don't know if that day will come... I find your videos very interesting, greetings from Barcelona!

[@bambooarchery]

👍 i like to share some topics in which other reviewers dare not, for fear they would offend their sponsor or supplier.

[@jake4194]

These bows are just a gimmick to charge more money, that's all.

[@bambooarchery]

If only they would hold up at least

[@The1969hawk]

If our ancestors did have the materials that we have today they would surly decide for the modern materials.

[@bambooarchery]

That's absolutely true. When life and death matters, you'll pick the best, everytime

[@The1969hawk]

@@bambooarchery the only reason to take natural materials is experimental archeology and competion if you have to use traditional mats like wooden arrows wood selfbows, traditional hornbow and so on.

[@abeldasilva9368]

Totally agree with you Roland I do have 2 Mongolian composite bows which take time to adjust the limbs .I do prefer the modern materials for efficiency but in a Mongolian model.Love my Mariner,Alibow,and Yuen bows.

[@bambooarchery]

Thanks for tuning in. By the way, name's Ronald. People regularly get it mixed up 😂

[@abeldasilva9368]

@@bambooarchery Sorry Ronald for naming you wrongly.Will do better next time.My apologies.

[@Slingshotsbowsandknifes-tm4ev]

Thank you!

[@adityasuresh6607]

Divine bow, no vibration, spritual, hypersonic arrows, Chinese Instagram meme chunky guy vibes

[@themindsojourner]

I don't need to finish this video at all. After around 10 minutes I am convinced never to mention horn bows anymore in my life

[@bambooarchery]

There's still the cultural/heritage value. It makes for a nice wall decoration if one can afford. But shooting wise, that's definitely not the first choice. Also some archer may want to take on extra difficulty challenge. Hornbow's poundage fall rapidly while you're at full draw, so you have to be quick. Otherwise, you'll be getting lower poundage and hitting lower for every second of delay

[@Daylon91]

Indeed. The horn hybrid from numair that Armin reviewed came with a crack. You could tell how thin the horn was and yes it was dry.

[@geomystery8343]

Good video. I like your sense for reason. What would be then your sugesstion for good modern bow for shooting thumb release without rest ? Preferably short bow with draw lenght about 31"

[@bambooarchery]

You'll have to set your goals. For example, speed vs stability. Size vs smoothness. Depending on what your goals are, the recommendations vary. For example, I don't care about the budget, I want bows that are stable, forgiving, smooth, low shock, low vibration. I am willing to trade away arrow speed and accepting large bows. So I pick Mariner Carbon bows which are 60" in length, with max drawlength reaching 34" even though I only draw 30". Large size is what gives me the stability, forgiveness, smoothness because my goal is accuracy/consistency for competitions. Speed is not my priority as I'm shooting 30# only and any arrow would be too heavy relatively (gpp wise). But having a carbon bow helps give me some speed bonus, welcomed even if I don't prioritize it. Then my arrows are setup such that there's minimal drag as to not waste my limited 30# power (Taurus Carbon Arrows with historically inspired low profile feathers). That works for me, so you'll have to set your goals first

[@geomystery8343]

@@bambooarchery Thank you !

[@geomystery8343]

@@bambooarchery And when Iam thinking about my goals I came to conclusion. They are: be as fast as possible, hit as strong as possible and be accurate as possible.

[@bambooarchery]

@@geomystery8343 then this is the perfect link kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGXFc39vnKecZ5Y

[@BibtheChib]

Regarding full classic horn-wood-sinew bows, are they not more efficient, in terms of speed, than modern material bows as they can shoot very light arrows? Justin was shooting a 4gpp arrow from his 114# Koppedrayer Ming bow, and I've heard of several accounts of Turkish horn bows shooting 5gpp or so, and even lower for flight arrows, so I considered this one of the stronger benefits of a horn bow. Also, what about bow geometry? Say if a laminate bow is made which is not as wildly recurved as a classic horn bow which are usually more C shaped, wouldn't this mean that the functional draw length of the bow resides in a lower tension region, and a horn bow has to be flexed much more to brace and thus has a much higher tension functional draw length? To understand better what I mean - you know when you pluck the string of a bow which already has very high tension, it doesn't vibrate like the string of a guitar, it's more of a quick ping sound due to the tension applied by the bow, it seems that many laminates don't achieve the bow geometry needed to get to this high tension. I haven't tried them all, but just from what I've experienced and also observed.

[@bambooarchery]

1) You can even shoot 1gpp from laminated bow but we don't because of warranty issue. Most commercially produced laminated bows are not built to last forever. If you build a laminated bow specifically designed for low gpp, it'll do just fine. How do you think flight archers get those 1.7km and 1.3km result if laminated bows cannot handle low gpp? It's a matter of whether the bow was designed for it or not. Compound bows are often shooting 4-5gpp. Crossbows also do 1-2gpp, no big deal. 2) Laminated bows can also be made in extreme C curvature. The reason why most commercial bows don't is due to user friendliness. Buyers prefer bow that are easy to string, maintain, and stable. A deep C makes the bow more twisty. In fact many commercial and historical hornbows are not extreme curvature either because they needed stability for user friendliness and war purposes. The extreme curvature are generally sport or flight bows and their stability are well known to be horrible and requires a lot of effort to string, maintain, just to shoot very few arrows for flight records. Additionally, the real reason for the extreme recurve is not because it improves the tension. But it's because sinew and horn has poor strength to weight ratio. They are also very soft and doing little work unless you bend the hell out of them. But if you further shorten the bow limb, it further reduces the limb mass, improving speed, but you'll see that it no longer bend as much into the extreme curvature. (The extreme curvature is actually a sign that the limb is longer than it needs to be, and could actually be shortened). This principle was already well understood by top flight archers, and hence the modern flight bows don't use extreme curvature because results are actually better without them. Advancement in technology had allowed engineers to analyze and design ever better and more efficient bows. The reason you don't see them in traditional archery is because we continue to force the materials to be made to look like traditional bow. Just like forcing an airplane to stay on the ground, then complain it is too slow and can't match the speed of traditional cars.

[@bambooarchery]

In terms of string tension, it is directly related to bow poundage, not the bows unstrung curvature. Try similar poundage hornbow and laminated bow, then compare their string tension. Btw, Justin's Ming Dashao Hornbow is made by Lucas Novotny (Saluki Bows). I talked with him about the bow long ago. At some point, wanted to get one as well but financially not allowed. That's also an example of a hornbow without extreme curvature so that it's much easier to string, maintain, and use. Oh yeah, that bow wasn't all that awesome according to Justin, but that's just how hornbows behave generally. Let's just say, it served his curiosity and purpose.

[@BibtheChib]

@@bambooarchery very good answers, thank you!

[@BibtheChib]

The bow from Justin I'm talking about was this Xiaoshao also: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXfGpKerlstsfdE

[@bambooarchery]

@@BibtheChib I didn't follow all his videos. I've not seen this bow. But the handshock seems pretty strong. You can see the jolt after the shot

[@oscardaley7557]

This is an old video, but rewatching it i find a lot that i disagree with. A lot of stuff i dont like hearing that i do agree with of course, but also (maybe just for the controversy) a lot of unwarranted slamming on horn sinew composites. Like lets walk through it, flight archery is an okayy measurement of a bows efficiency, but if you look at a flight bow, its hardly recognisable. If someone says they want to get into archery and they want "the best bow" you cant hand them a 100+lb footbow thats unwarrantied and liable to breakage. It is the most efficient, but the best? Thats not a good bow. I'd argue no flight bow is. As for horn/sinew as a material, using flight archery records to stay consistent with the video, 2021 flight archery, primitive turkish winner Ivar Malde made a 530m shot. In the open/modern aisiatic category, the winning shot was 538m. Thats such a minute difference that i think in honesty, it comes down to the fact that there are just less people shooting horn sinew. Its expensive and delicate, compared to cheaper modern bows that you can mass produce in high draw weights, etc. Certainly not an example of horn being left in the dust. . So what about other bows then? Well, horn sinew outperformed all selfbows and yumis, and lost to compounds, crossbows, and open conventional flight bows. So alright, i guess if you want to shoot the best bows, traditional bows are already disqualified. . But thats kind of the point. People dont shoot traditional bows for the efficiency. But if youre shooting a traditional bow, horn and sinew is damn good, and way more traditional. . Which i guess brings me to horn/fibreglass stuff. I am at a point where i am heavily desensitised to most, if not all, modern wood/fibreglass laminated bows. I honestly cannot tell the difference between a mariner, spearman, simons bow company or alibow bow provided theyre all of a similar shape. They all shoot about as fast as one another, about as smooth as one another, about as much handshock as one another. But i can certainly feel the difference with full fibreglass bows! Fibreglass is heavy and the siyat on the end usually heavy too by comparison, and theres a lot of handshock and lost efficiency there. The only other bow ive used that really felt unique is my grozer biocomposite turkish. Now its pretty much just a jazzed up laminated bow, I had to take some leather off it to repair the arrow pass at one point, and the construction is honestly nice. The horn plate inner is thick enough that its not just decorative, and it goes right to the two layers of the wooden core, which then have a layer of fibreglass after that, and the layer of sinew/epoxy fibreglass stuff after that. It feels nice to draw, smooth to shoot, and it doesnt have a layer of fibreglass on the belly of the bow like most modern laminated bows do, so clearly the horn plate stuff is doing its job. Do i think that a full horn/sinew bow is better than modern materials? If you want to do traditional archery, then absoloutely. If you want to send a projetile as far as possible? No. Buy a gun. I think for horn/fibreglass, the opposite of what the video states is true. I think firstly, its not really possible for the horn to be decorative if the horn delaminating causes problems. After all, if i took the paint off my car it would drive the same. Take the horn off these bows, and assuming it doesnt break, youre left with a pure fibreglass bow. Having shot a horn fibreglass hybrid once myself, i can say that theyre much nicer than a pure fibreglass bow. About as nice as the good laminated bows. . So... if horn and sinew remain top of the line for traditional aisitaic archery, and fibreglass is known for being pretty terrible by itself as a bow material, and so you combine it with horn, and it gets better than it would be if it were just pure glass, then thats good! . Thats kind of the crux of it, i think. Is a horn/glass hybrid better than if it were just fibreglass? Yes. So, its actually not a bad hybrid. Carebows stuff is cheaper than a lot of the high end laminates too. . . All that having been said, laminated bows are generally prone to delamination especially at higher draw weights. I do think this problem is exemplified in horn/glass bows because the usual method of carving grooves into the horn to get a good surface area isnt someyhing that works with fibreglass. So more prone to delamination i assume, and it seems like this is the common experience. That .. that would be about it though.

[@oscardaley7557]

Huh. Well thanks for reading my absoloute thesis of a comment if you made it this far. Got a bit carried away I guess

[@bambooarchery]

@@oscardaley7557 Laminated bow record is not 500+m, it is almost 1.3km. Hornbow record is not 500+m, it is almost 850m. Just because these people can't beat the top record, doesn't mean they are the new record. Who said nobody care about performance? If it's true, everyone is using hornbow. Even you said carebow is cheaper stuff, so money is not an issue, but why very few use it? Most hornbow owners knows it, hornbow is smooth because it is constantly losing poundage at full draw. You need to shoot quickly to minimize poundage drop. Handshock is higher on hornbow. Speed is less for the same gpp. It is difficult to shoot well, and shoot long hours with hornbow. That's why even hornbow owners themselves don't usually use them. Not because it's expensive or delicate, you even said it's more durable than anything else. The only reason is because it just doesn't perform, you need to put in a lot more energy for equal outcome, and that's inefficient! Just like how you couldn't tell apart among brands of laminated bow, most people can't tell apart brands of horn-sinew composite. Every maker makes the same copy, even decoration. If it's not for the painting on the bow, they all look identical. But even that, paintings are copied too. So they look identical, in fact even hybrid hornbow look identical. Nothing unique at all. Who said the broken hybrid horn bows are unusable? You can shoot it, people are just angry that their fairly new bow are falling apart, even though it can still shoot. You buy a car, and the door fell off. Well you can still drive it! Hornbow owners report to me that the hornbow delaminate nearly just as much as laminated bows. The only difference is that you generally repair a hornbow, but get a new laminated bow. However I've also seen several people who has learned how to repair laminated bows, there's no need to waste. It can be repaired just like a hornbow, even very severe breakage that you thought would be total loss. Very impressive. Carebow stuff are not cheap, compared to hornbows made in the west, then yes it's cheaper. Hybrid horn bows cost just as much as most laminated bows. Even Indonesian archers tell me the reliability is bad, so if you intend to use it as decoration at home, it's fine but not for actual daily usage. So if you like hornbow, just use it but don't try to argue that it is in anyway better. It isn't. I've had the chance to try one, I won't pay money for it!

[@oscardaley7557]

@@bambooarchery the record for the open class of flight shooting is definitely more than 500m, what I'm referring to is the modern aisiatic category of the 2021 flight championships. I think if you're not using an aisiatic bow, then horn/sinew isn't the best available. A horn/sinew english longbow would be pretty terrible, as would a compound bow made from a horn wood sinew composite. . Horn and sinew isn't the best material in the world and aisiatic bows aren't the most efficient in the world. But if archery were about using the most efficient, nobody would shoot aisiatic bows. . My point though, is that if you're going to use an aisiatic bow, you've already admitted yourself to not using the highest performing thing out there. So nobody claims that a hornbow can outperform a longbow, but hornbows will outperform most non-hornbow aisiatic bows too. I'd take horn and sinew over pure fibreglass, over an alibow/AF bow, and would feel confident that it could perform on the same level as even the nicer laminated bows, judging by the relatively little difference between the performance of modern aisiatic bows and primitive Turkish bows from the flight archery records. So I don't claim that horn/sinew are *the* best, even if only for aisiatic bows, but rather one of the best. I think there's plenty of contention to be had for horn and sinew, or modern wood/fibreglass/carbon bows as the best (in the aisiatic category). Just seems a little unfair to dunk on traditional composites like that despite them still being one of the best material choices in terms of performance. . As for carebows, it's true that I've never handled or shot a broken one, it's possible that you could peel the horn off entirely without affecting the draw experience, but I feel like that's unlikely. At any rate, shooting a horn fibreglass hybrid felt better than a pure fibreglass bow and I have no reason to attribute that to anything other than the horn addition. Also, I appreciate your dedication to the discussion! I figured my comment after a year would fall on deaf ears, so I respect the engagement, thanks!

[@bambooarchery]

@@oscardaley7557 if you want to compare, then compare the best. Asiatic bow design is handicapping laminated bow performance. Nothing much to see there. Several asiatic bow makers are starting to optimize laminated design and its getting closer to a modern bow. That's proof that people are seeking performance, but specifically selective performance. If they like a Turkish style bow, they want the highest performance bow that still somewhat resemble a Turkish bow. And it's also not in manufacturer best interest to provide the most durable product. So it's not because you can't make laminated bow into ultra durabilty, but manufacturer will go bankrupt if you don't come back for more. The horn on hybrid hornbows contribute very little. But even 0.1# can affect the tiller balance. When the horn cracks, especially if severe delamination, the tiller is off but you can still shoot it. The bow won't snap.

[@oscardaley7557]

@@bambooarchery hmmmm maybe, but anything other than aisiatic handicaps horn and sinew. After all, if we were to compare the best, why not exclusively use Olympic bows, or compound bows, or crossbows, or a gun, etc? Of the traditional bows, horn and sinew aisiatic bows leave traditional western bows in the dust, and compete with the best modern aisiatics. They only fall short once you move to more modern bows, Olympic, compound, etc. But can you still call that traditional archery?

[@albertuslien1]

As an archer, I hear many myths about hornbows, and then I buy chrono, and 1st hornbow, 2nd hornbow, 3rd hornbow, while I don't consider my self expert, and I still consider hornbow a marvel of old times technology, and I still own several to respect how the old archer train, as sentimental weapons, BUT I don't really like shooting hornbow, I do shoot them sometimes, just for sentimental value. For hybrid, let just say, I never want to buy them.

[@NicoHogenes]

Isn’t horn and sinew composite bow meant to be more of a way to support the wood so it does’nt break, not so much meant to add lots of strength? Elastic modulus of both horn and sinew are far lower than wood. Elastic modulus of fibreglass and carbon on the other hand is 4 to 5 times higher than wood, therefore better suited for making a bow. For esthetics and historical motivated reasons I still love horn bows.

[@bambooarchery]

The elastic modulus is actually not as important. A material can have low elastic modulus but very high strain, meaning it is easy to stretch/compress but it can stretch/compress a lot, which gives a high ultimate strength. Carbon has an extremely high modulus but very low strain, which yield a very high ultimate strength. Knowing it has high ultimate strength to weight ratio (specific strength) makes this material good for bow. However we must know how this material should be used effectively. High modulus but low strain means it is very stiff, you cannot bend it alot but it's very strong even though with just a tiny bending. Carbon bow are not suitable for very high amount of flexing.

[@bambooarchery]

Glass on the other hand has lower modulus than carbon and it takes much more strain. So it is more suitable for bendier designs. Horn and sinew have very low modulus, because they are rather soft, but they can take alot of strain. That's why hornbow are inefficient unless you make a deep C or O unstrung profile. The wood in the hornbow is just a lightweight spacer to hold them together. Power comes from the outer-most layers

[@NicoHogenes]

@@bambooarchery and exactly that is the case with horn and sinew. Sinew is fairly easy to stretch and horn, especially from the waterbuffalo can take immense compression. The thing with Horn is just that to be able to carry the load it must have a certain thickness. This was not taken in account when designing these horn decorated fibreglass bows and that’s why it failed in my opinion

[@NicoHogenes]

@@bambooarchery kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6Gal3p-bdiXY5o

[@philozoraptor6808]

Does Grozer biocomposite count as hybrid or as decorated laminated bow? There are lots of review of them on KZbin (and they seem to perform well enough) but also some disturbing stories about delaminating often etc.

[@bambooarchery]

Laminated bow with decorative bio-filled plates. Years ago, a scientific test was conducted to compare bows from grozer. Grozer biocomposite is worse/slower/less efficient than Grozer simple laminated bow of the same model and poundage. The decorative bio-filled plates are dead weight slowing the bow down. Also, it is true about the delamination stories. I've seen it with my own eyes, and direct complaints from resellers friends, who had plenty headache with warranty on biocomposites.

[@OpiatesAndTits]

I’m trying to think of an analogy it’s sort of like synthetic leather. It’s supposed to give you the the leather experience at a cheaper price. Biocomposite is supposed to give that traditional bow feel at a non-traditional price.

[@BLACKXARCHERY]

Where did you get that bow in the beginning of the film. That fiberglass bow looks sick

[@bambooarchery]

They are made by AF archery. But strangely AF axed them after a year or so. I still have stocks of them, not a terrible bow. Of course not as good/efficient as laminated, but fiberglass bow are meant for bombproofing lol. I keep this one in the range for my students to use, at least I won't be as concerned if accidentally dryfired or shit happening to it.

[@peterxyz3541]

I love the idea or ‘romance’ of horn+bamboo+wood+sinew bow; BUT, natural material is susceptible to natural defect. For practical reasons, I’ll buy a carbon bow (ILF limbs)

[@bambooarchery]

It doesn't hurt to have a romance hornbows on your wishlist. I wish to afford a hornbow and a good traditional quiver as well. But they are just too costly, lack the practicality to justify, and definitely not my priority. I'd rather spend the money on carbon bows that delivers result first. But one day when I truly have extra cash laying around.

[@redeyezgenoc2346]

Nice said. I see it similar. OK, i like horsebows. But i don't need historical correctness. It could bei invented new for better Performance in my opinion. New Design with new Materials. Thats what i like about the j-bow. This will be my next one.

[@Ronnietay269]

I totally agree HYBRID HORN from Indonesia is rubbish and waste of money buying it I bought one and hardly shoot 500 hundred short the bow spilt ., between horn and F. glass

[@bambooarchery]

@@Ronnietay269 which brand was yours from?

[@pemanahpemalas1929]

Yeah the Truth is ugly and painfull. You will be called "business destroyer" by some "super smart" archers and bowyers...

[@bambooarchery]

That's one of the reason I didn't say much about it openly. But since the first time it appeared, I already warned that the "technology" won't work as intended. The idea is just "too stupid".

[@RoyMcAvoy]

@@bambooarchery It is sad but it is currently a trend to make such a bow down under. Every bowyer seems to come out which their own hybrid nowadays, well at least that's what I noticed on their Facebook pages. It seems like being able to produce a hybrid bow is a level up for them bowyers from the efg bow making.

[@pemanahpemalas1929]

One problem is, most of bowyers don't have chronograph to check their bow efficiency. So the don't know if this hibrid faster than EFG bow. Or, they just don't wanna know the truth. It expensive bow. Easy money.

[@RoyMcAvoy]

@@pemanahpemalas1929 perhaps it's true. Water buffalo horns don't cost that much but they're able to charge hybrids couples of times higher than efg bow

[@pemanahpemalas1929]

@@RoyMcAvoy now some of this bowyers admit this hibrit is not faster or more efficient (still don't wanna admit it is even slower), but still they make excuse for "decorative" aspect. It make bow looks more beautiful bla BLA...

[@Finnv893]

Daylite is the one ballsy enough to make 130lb bows out of modern laminate, don’t know how durable those bows are in the long run but modern lamination methods have yet to be trialed and refined at historical poundages unlike wood or horn sinew, and all the inefficiency talk can be mitigated by upping the arrow weight, unacceptable in flight archery but not everything in archery is about cast distance. Your rant can be directed both ways, modern bowyers are using modern materials to imitate old bow typologies, and most have got wood or bamboo strips wedged between the layers, which looks pleasing but decreases function. My point is you should have confined you frustration at the “bio-composite” hype, unless some one in the name of science is willing to take off the horn plates of a real composite bow and replaces it with fiberglass and demonstrates that it will indeed last a lifetime, idk maybe you will?

[@paradox_1729]

Some very basic engineering knowledge would make this very clear. I think some people just want to put faith in the past consistently.

[@DanSantanaBows]

Bio composite hybrids are certainly just a marketing gimmick and I don’t know any serious bowyers who think highly of them. I’ve never found a trade secret in bowmaking that was not just a gimmick that’s been done over and over before. Bowyers who promote them are either charlatans or naive about the deep history of the craft.

[@pyramid_scheme_termination3655]

In terms of ridiculous hybrid bows. I’ve heard of bows where one limb is a recurve and the other is straight (S-Shaped Andaman bow) why combine recurve and straight limb on opposite ends lol

[@bambooarchery]

It's ok to experiment. It didn't become a commercial success, but something was learned and that's great. Actually many ridiculous design was tested throughout history, even during the early era of compound bows. Many design became obsolete, the process of evolution and survival of the fittest. If you look at some of the obsolete and forgotten design, you may be surprised and impressed by their creativity, ingenuity, and innovation. I only have a problem when a product is outright crap, sold to masses, widely celebrated, but causes much regret to unaware buyers.

[@pyramid_scheme_termination3655]

@@bambooarchery I’ve heard of a compound bow that has a wrist brace and looks like a slingshot, rattan bows, reverse draw compound bows (regular not crossbow)… so many unorthodox designs… but I guess they all work as intended

[@pyramid_scheme_termination3655]

Why not make a pure carbon bow then if it has the highest strength weight ratio???

[@bambooarchery]

@@pyramid_scheme_termination3655 because carbon in the middle of the sandwich is not contributing to the strength. It is only suitable as outer most layer where it is effectively being utilized for their strength to weight ratio. For the core, there's plenty of better material that are much lighter than carbon because strength is not needed. For example wood, bamboo, foam are at least 2.5 times lighter than carbon without affecting the poundage of the bow.

[@RoyMcAvoy]

Hybrid by slapping a layer of horn? No thank you. Just because you know how to and can do it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it Better use that hard earned money to buy laminated bow, which performs better than efg and "hybrid".

[@biggusdiccus6969]

So basically the fiberglass drag the horn layer when firing an arrow?

[@bambooarchery]

Sort of, hence weaker performance than just regular fiberglass bow (without that extra horn layer)