What if Castamir the Usurper won the Kin-strife?

In this video, we look at what may have happened if Castamir the Usurper defeated Eldacar, and claimed total victory in Gondor's Kin-strife civil war.
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[@apstrike]

It's not impossible for Castamir to win and his descendants make an alliance with the Northmen. They just have to give them Rohan earlier and eat a lot of crow. Admittedly, Tolkien doesn't follow Byzantine history exactly, but there are plenty of examples where emperors made alliances with peoples who used their predecessor's skull for a drinking cup.

[@alanpennie8013]

Gondor had wondrous cities, much more magnificent than anything else in ME. A wise king would devote quite a lot of time to organising visits by Easterling and Haradrim leaders where they could be dazzled by their splendour like Rus in Constantinople.

[@istari0]

@@alanpennie8013 Castamir was hardly wise. He and his faction clearly viewed themselves as superior to all other Men and believe they should rule over other groups of Men.

[@Transilvanian90]

It's not a perfect historical allegory, but there are plenty of nods to Byzantine History in the history of Gondor. The weaker half of a previously greater realm that stubbornly resists and sometimes reaches great heights, and generally serves as a buffer to the lands to its West against threats from the East and South (in our history, the Islamic caliphates and Ottomans primarily). But yes, the Byzantines were often beset by usurpers and treason. Sicily was lost in the 9th century because a traitorous admiral called in the Arabs to support him against the Emperor in Constantinople.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@Transilvanian90 Indeed.

[@laurinkaebelmann6373]

@@Transilvanian90 What is that greater realm you are referring to? Numenor or the united Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor?

[@jonashammond498]

I love Tolkien’s creation of umbar. It made the dunedain not just a completely good force. The middle men can be just as good as the dunedain, and the dunedain can fall. These are still people that can choose evil or good

[@Uberdude6666]

Cool vid By the War of the Ring I imagine Gondor would have just sort of fractured up gradually and ended up joining Sauron's side.

[@diegonatan6301]

I think that after the death of Eldacar his son would mirror what the sons of Castamir did in Umbar and would retain the territories that in the Original Timeline went to Rohan. I don't think Castamir would care about those lands since he was focused on the coastal part of the kingdom. Even if the line of the kings of Gondor die with Eldacar, I think that Castamir would still not bother reconquering those regions, leaving them to the local numenorean populace and their northmen allies.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

If Eldacar died it would not be the end of his line of Kings because he had a son and a grandson to continue the fight for the crown of Gondor, just like Castamir did.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

He would certainly care if heirs of Eldacar remained alive and at large

[@myimperium1]

An interesting "what if" would be if Castamir was not able to start the kin-strife war. If he was not able to garner enough popular support against Eldacar.

[@emekaumeh3993]

Would love to see a spin-off series on the kinstrife and the reign of eldaccar

[@untitled568]

Gondor would become basically new Numenor during the later days..

[@concept5631]

Eru: *_Oh Me, not again._*

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Great video!

[@paulemge9156]

Nicely done. What if’s are so difficult to do

[@istari0]

I think it would have turned out similarly to what happened when Númenor split into the King's Men and the Faithful. The "New Faithful" would have left Gondor. This could have been a large group of people and they could have established a strong kingdom in the north with their Northmen allies or they could have gone up towards what had been Arnor and setup there. Together with the remaining Elves, they might have been able to defeat Angmar, perhaps even re-establish Arnor as a united kingdom. Gondor though would have been in a bad situation. Given the evil nature of its new rulers, they would have been as easily manipulated by Sauron as their Númenorean ancestors had been in the late 2nd Age. I believe Gondor would have fallen or come under the domination of Sauron.

[@Steve-qu3jk]

Interesting theory...I like the idea of the Eldacar supporters fleeing to Arnor/Arthedain and (possibly) tipping the scales in the Angmar wars. This would have been relatively soon after the disasters of 1409 (Amon Sul razed, Cardolan largely wiped out as a separate nation), and since the "small army" Gondor sent north in 1975 was seen as huge by the residents of Arthedain, even a "small" group of exiles would have been a relatively large army.

[@mykelhedge7299]

I think Gondor would be better off, as it would have held the south. The loss of the North would be bad but holding on to the south would eliminate one entire flank of threats as well as gain all the resources, manpower and not having to waste both contending with them. What also needs to be considered is the line of kings wouldn’t have failed. It failed due to one king letting his ego win. In the alternative timeline there wouldn’t be the stewards. Also, without Umbar threatening them perhaps they could have aided Arnor sooner, as the northmen would likely have still sought Gondor as an ally of convenience during the wainrider invasions…all those that has been wronged by Castamir were long dead by this time so it could have been water under the bridge.

[@istari0]

If Castamir had won the Kin-Strife, that would have marked the end of the line of kings as he was not the heir to the throne. As DG pointed out in the video, others might well have decided, in the aftermath of his victory, that perhaps they should try to overthrow him or his heirs. Also as DG pointed out the Northmen might well have decided not to deal with Gondor in the years, decades, or even centuries after what the Northmen would regard as a betrayal by Castamir and his faction. Some groups of people have long memories and are not forgiving.

[@eugenebelford9087]

First of all and if at all, that applies only to the line of kings of Gondor - which isn't the important one (in terms of the story). Important is the line of Isildur; the High Kingship. Narsil is their heirloom. And the Dead Men of Dunharrow only answer the line of the High King. Besides that I think the fact that 'only' stewards rule Gondor at the end of the Third Age and no heir of Anarion is also important or helpful. Since it further legitimizes Aragorn in the eyes of the populace. There is no longer, like many, many centuries ago, an argument to be made that the rightful Gondorian king has to be a descendent from Anarion. At the end of a day, a steward is always just a servant of the rightful king.

[@mykelhedge7299]

@@istari0the line of kings would not have ended - Castamir was himself the grandson of a king, so he was still in the line of kings. The throne of Gondor passed to an uncle from a nephew on one occasion I believe, and this would functionally been the same...but it could be viewed that his userpation legitimated violent overthrows...or it could have lead to more 'pure' marriages amongst the rulers. Not entirely sure the northmen would hold a grudge - had he been killed during the initial attack rather than going to raise an army, then few northmen would have been involved, and by the time of the wainriders it was the northmen that needed help, so they may not have been too picky.

[@mykelhedge7299]

@@eugenebelford9087there would be no Aragorn in this timeline - Aragorn was the product of the line of Arvedui and the daughter of Ondoher. In this timeline Ondoher would never be king, likely would never exist at all as his ancestors likely married who they did due to them being the line of kings. No chance of being king limits the options, and perhaps a wife married into the new line of kings instead.

[@istari0]

@@mykelhedge7299 Well, about half of Gondor would not have regarded Castamir as the rightful king and that goes back to the point DG made that others would have likely thought to seize the throne by force. You are correct that there were other instances when the King of Gondor was succeeded by a nephew but that was when the King died without a son to become the new ruler. As you pointed out, this does not apply to Castamir and we know Tolkien placed great significance in his writings to individuals being the rightful wielder of authority. We do know that the Council of Gondor played a significant role in running the kingdom and at least in the case of Arvedui rejected his claim to the throne despite his being Isildur's heir and being married to the daughter of the King of Gondor. Even Aragorn did not just go into Minas Tirith and proclaim himself king by virtue of being Isildur's heir; it was his actions and the support of others, both in the nobility and the general population that showed he was the right person to be the King of Gondor.

[@Disgruntled_Grunt]

Once again, the _physical_ decline of the Dúnedain was preceded by a _spiritual_ decline. Pre-downfall, the Numenoreans' lifespans decreased substantially because of their various darkness-worshipping shenanigans, and they hadn't even started breeding outside their race. Then fast-forward to Eldacar's time; he is (at most) half Numenorean (probably less) but lives just as long and grows to the same stature as full-blooded Numenoreans. No loss whatsoever. But then people take exception to that, they _think_ that this perfectly normal thing will somehow cost them, and _that's_ what begins their second decline. I just love the way Tolkien wove a sense of morality into his setting's magic. It's similar to Saruman's fall. And hey--this subject might be worth a video or two!

[@paulvmarks]

It is quite possible that the men the of Harad would gradually fuse with the people of Gondor - removing the southern threat, but changing the culture of Gondor.

[@alanpennie8013]

Gondorization should have been a thing in Near Harad.

[@zimriel]

Castamir was a racist. He wasn't going to accept Harad any more than Rhovanion.

[@lamogio7938]

@@zimrielnot necessarily If anything the northern Haradrim would have probably been viewed more favorably than other races due to the Numenorean influence on their culture and race.

[@aurelian2668]

​​@@lamogio7938 northern harad probably due to numenoreans doing fucked up shits with their slaves. So probably lots of wedlocked desceded kids with numenorean blood. The southern part...probably not but would maybe see an influx of northern haradrim with numenorean blood colonizing/displacing the natives.

[@eumaies]

I think a more interesting question is what if the Rohan lover king had avoided civil war entirely by just resigning after castamir declared himself

[@LockeCPM4]

I love what if videos. Thank you

[@Steve-qu3jk]

If Castamir had won, the inland provinces would have largely been ignored and/or abandoned. Would Gondor have expanded along the coast to the west/north as well, perhaps past Anfalas up to the mouths of the Greyflood or even the Brandywine?

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

I would love to have a video on Castamir himself!

[@matyasspevacek286]

There is simply no other LOTR channel doing things like u

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great vid, thanks

[@Edward-nf4nc]

If Eldacar died it would not be the end of his line of kings as he had a son and grandson at this time. Like Eldacar they could form an alliance with his allies, or form a new kingdom made up of Calenardhon, Anorien, maybe Ithilien and allied with Rhovanion. The navy would be useless if Aldamir established a inland kingdom. Aldamir could base himself in what became Helm's Deep to begin with as Minas Anor, Minas Ithil and Isengard could be besieged. The Fords of Isen could be held by Aldamir's people, as could the Undeeps, Amon Hen and the Mering Stream. This would allow Aldamir and his descendants a chance to win back the crown of Gondor, but both realms would be weakened as Gondor is during the canon timeline. However, if Eldacar's son or grandson regained the throne of Gondor, the Navy might not defect and form a new state in Umbar and Harad, which would make Gondor stronger in the long run as it is unlikely Sauron would be able to form an alliance with Umbar if it was still under Gondor's control, thus the Corsairs of Umbar would not exist.

[@Minstrels-of-Middle-earth]

We would not like to think what would have happened had Castamir won. 🙈 We're doing a couple of songs about the Kin-strife in a much detail as possible, any feedback is much appreciated. You can view the videos here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3qcd2d_opZ-a6M

[@alphax4785]

In this timeline I could see Gondor 'trading' the Northmen for the Haradrim and other Southmen. The ultimate irony being if Castamir's descendants start to mingle with the Haradrim. It would reshape the map though with the high likelihood of Gondor being cut off from the interior due to the Northmen being either hostile or mostly destroyed while the south and coasts would probably become more developed.

[@shanenolan5625]

And the rains weep or tier halls with not a soul to hear .( the rains of castamir

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Reyns of Castamere, totally unrelated 😉

[@richmondlandersenfells2238]

I think you mean castamere. Wrong franchise my dude!

[@Captaindc1214]

I like Jamis more because he made that call for the TD.

[@Sen-xt5oj]

What if Déagol got the one ring instead of Sméagol?

[@MerkhVision]

Lmao this is such a silly question

[@aurelian2668]

Same shit would happen but gollum would be fat XD

[@alanmike6883]

Gondor would've gone down the evil path. Perhaps since no corsairs of umbar, the king's of Gondor under his descendents would've become a ally of sauron and provided the naval power for him.

[@DarthHoosier3038]

I dunno. Nations that have strong institutions can usually outlast bad rulers, especially ones as long lasting as Gondor. To me, it feels like saying that China was permanently doomed to evil simply because the Qin dynasty or the evil empress Wu seized power.

[@bristleconepine4120]

Perhaps not directly, but I agree: if Castamir had won, Gondor would have gone down a path replaying that of the King's Men of Númenor - and the inevitable downfall that happened as a result.

[@AnulaibazIV]

No, that does not add upp at all.

[@bristleconepine4120]

@@AnulaibazIV What doesn't?

[@lamogio7938]

@@bristleconepine4120not really The fall of Numenor was a punishment directly by the gods. And Numenor was directly following Sauron , this version of Gondor wouldn't have to suffer such a fate because the Valar weren't getting involved as directly as they did in the past and because Gondor would still be fighting Sauron. This was essentially a dynastic dispute , it can't compare to the evils of Sauron and as such Gondor would have no reason to even think of allying with the dark lord.

[@lukasmeier9245]

Is it ever actually stated that the Dunedain decline because of mixing with other peoples because Eldacar expressly didn‘t. Isn‘t just Arda marred responsible for their decline.

[@alanpennie8013]

Indeed. But there was a (reasonable) belief that the decline might be slowed by avoiding intermarriage, though that definitely created other problems.

[@lukasmeier9245]

@@alanpennie8013 But weren't the gift to the dunedain magical and not "völkisch or racial" so there really wasn't any point to it?

[@fdgsfdgsfgsdgfsdfg3639]

@@lukasmeier9245 Elrond in the council of Elrond.. page 238 of my copy of lotr.... "But in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-earth the line of Meneldil son of Anárion failed, and the Tree withered, and the blood of the Númenóreans became mingled with that of lesser men." IMHO - The decline of the Dunedain is almost certainly a mix of magical decline due to Arda marred AND also a simple fact that the blood of the dunedain become progressively diluted with middle men.... The effects probably wouldnt be visible initially (i.e. Eldacar as a good example).. but if you take very diluted blood then it's inevitable that there'd be a difference in dunedain characteristics vs pure blood.... e.g. the difference in lifespan between the dunedain of the north/its chieftans and say Eomer/Theoden/Eowyn (who all had some Dunedain blood via Morwen)

[@istari0]

The decline of the Dúnedain actually began back in Númenor in the middle of the 2nd Age and while it affected the King's Men faction more, the Faithful were not unaffected. The behavior of Castamir and his supporters was very similar to that of the King's Men (indeed the southern provinces, particularly down around Umbar) had been settled mostly by Númenoreans of the King's Men faction while those of the Faithful settled farther north) so they would have continued and accelerated their decline had Castamir won the Kin-Strife.

[@lukasmeier9245]

@@istari0 so it's tied to one's morality?

[@Sen-xt5oj]

What if Gorbag won the fight at Cirith Ungol and escaped with the mithril vest instead of Shagrat?

[@MerkhVision]

Lmao this is such a silly question

[@00martoneniris86]

What if the 7 dwarven father's awakened in mount cundabad

[@ajavierb2078]

I was just thinking about this senario the other day😂

[@00martoneniris86]

What if all the elves went to valinor

[@Svinfylka]

Look no further than Rome to see what happens when a usurper succeeds. The rule of the people ended and at times the civil wars all but destroyed the empire. At other times a strong leader rose up and led to the benefit of all. I think the failure of succession would bring the degradation of Numenorean influence much quicker, likely dooming Gondor to an early defeat. Maybe Umbar would live on as a new capital like Constantinople was to Rome, but of a far weaker state.

[@MerkhVision]

Great point and comparison!

[@lamogio7938]

I doubt it This dynastic dispute would set a bad precedent but we can't draw any concrete conclusions from it regarding Gondor's future. And Numenor's fall was far more influenced directly by Sauron who would have nothing to do with Gondor in this timeline.

[@Svinfylka]

@@lamogio7938 at this point Numenor has already been destroyed. I’m referring to the degradation of the Numenorean blood and moving faster towards a weaker state because if one usurper succeeds it just encourages more. There’s where the internal fighting really weakens the state.

[@00martoneniris86]

What if the red arrow was sent to arnor

[@istari0]

Arnor was destroyed by the time Rohan was founded.

[@MerkhVision]

Red Arrow? The sidekick of the DC superhero Green Arrow!? Lmao

[@bandofbauers6779]

Well, going of this. what if the Kin-Strife, just never happened. Lets, say either Valacar shapes up ends up marrying a dunedain women, or Castamir fails to gain supporters and ends up getting in prison. Would that be better for Gondor.

[@MerkhVision]

Yes it would definitely be much better for Gondor that way

[@BelegaerTheGreat]

LOVE CASTAMIR!

[@BelegaerTheGreat]

Most arguments against Castamir are that he was cruel and evil of heart. But remember - history is written by the victor.

[@richmondlandersenfells2238]

Bro was a straight up racist while being a product of a non racial couple!

[@alejandromaldonado6159]

​@@BelegaerTheGreatIf you don't want history to repeat you'll be against Castimir as he embody the traits of the King's men faction of Numenor

[@Sen-xt5oj]

What if Aragorn married Galadriel instead of Arwen?

[@istari0]

Well, that would have really pissed Celeborn off.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

​@@istari0 That one is even more entertaining than the Red Arrow comment 🥂

[@MerkhVision]

Lmao what? Galadriel was already married!

[@calebowen2006]

Gotta love some good old racism in middle earth 😎

[@MerkhVision]

The racial physical decline was really only symbolic of their spiritual moral decline.

[@richmondlandersenfells2238]

That's why we don't talk about the kin strife nor kinslaying 💀

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Power hungry opportunist.

[@00martoneniris86]

What if the elves send the 16 away 3 to the elves 7 to Durin 3 9 to gil galad and then to numénor Would the balrog awake earlier Would the Free poeple destroy the 19 if isildur would take the one to weaken the control of Sauron over middel earth

[@istari0]

Why would the Elves send any of the 16 to either Men or Dwarves when it was the Elves, with the assistance of Sauron, who crafted them?

[@Harun-cd6jz]

Castamir would have preserved Gondor for generations and he is only called the "Usurper" because he lost the war. Had he won, his greatness would be more accepted historically. If Castamir had won the Kinstrife then the foolish descendants of Eldacar like Earnur would have never ruled, the Kingship of Gondor would have remained intact, and the blood of Numenor kept purer. Castamir's descandants would have also led Gondor into eventual peace with Harad, Umbar, and the Easterlings because we know that his descandants were eventually able to mix themselves with the Black Numenoreans of Umbar and establish relations. It was the descandants of Eldacar in Gondor who sought endless war with Umbar and Harad and felt they were better than the Southrons. The division of Middle Earth into east vs west was and will always be stupid and toxic, it was Gondor and the so called men of the west who divided the world of men. As for Rohan, there would be no Rohan because the stewards gave them the land though they had no right. Castamir's sons would still control modern day Rohan. Also had the ring been known and Castamir's descandants were to recover it, bring it to Gondor, and keep it tucked away from Sauron then they would have eventually defeated Sauron because Castamir's descandants having mixed with the south, would have been able to convince Harad, Umbar etc to unite together as one force of men against Mordor. There would be no more west vs east, it would just be the race of men vs everyone else and this would lead to our dominion over Middle East and us replacing Sauron as kings of the earth. Having the ring in Gondor with the descandants of Castamir, the orcs and servants of Sauron may abandon Sauron to serve us instead. Whereas in the books (Harad and Easterlings) had to be slaves to Sauron. Why could we not conquer Sauron instead? The throne of Gondor intact, the ring of the enemy in the hands of men, the unity of the race of men, the glory, the victory, all of this would occur with Castamir as the greatest King of Gondor, his name would be spoken in the same breath as Elendil and Isildur himself. It was Eldacar's descandants who killed the line and gave rule to the stewards who gave land away, lost Osgiliath, and kept the wars going with other nations of men.

[@mdefoe28]

The idea of someone using the ruling ring for his own purposes is ridicolous: it only serves Sauron's will. One just have to read the council of Elrond chapter to understand.

[@diegonatan6301]

First, the only way to make peace with the black numenoreans and the Easterlings would be surrendering to Sauron. Second, no human can bend the will of the ring away from his master, only other Ainur and maybe some of the mightiest of the elves could do that.

[@istari0]

The hostility of Men from the East and South towards the descendant of the Edain dates back to Melkor/Morgoth's and later Sauron's domination of those Men who never went to the west. It was later aggravated by the King's Men faction from Númenor who changed from being benefactors to the Men living in Middle-Earth to being despots at least in the coastal areas. All this happened long, long before Eldacar came to power. As far as Men being able to conquer Sauron, it was tried and it failed as Sauron ended up finishing up the corruption of the Númenoreans from the inside and the result was the destruction of Númenor. The One Ring would have corrupted the Men who tried to wield it and it would have been quite easy to do so to the rulers of a Gondor ruled by Castamir's descendants.

[@MerkhVision]

Lmao nice try troll, I can smell a Black Numenorean/King’s Man a furlong away!