What If Fulgrim Never Obtained The Laer Blade? - 40K Theories

What could have happened if Fulgrim never obtained the weapon that led to the corruption of himself and his legion?
Featuring Dr. White as Fulgrim:
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Thumbnail art by Connor Magill
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[@akiramasashi9317]

Remember that part in that one Fulgrim book where he was ready to have his entire fleet open fire on Horus' flagship at point blank range but was interrupted at the last second? That. That's what would have happened.

[@akiramasashi9317]

He didn't have the Laer blade on his person when he approached Horus' fleet and his every instinct yelled at him to fire on Horus' ship and he almost did when some random guy who's name I can't remember right now came onto the bridge with the Laer blade and interrupted Fulgrim at the last second.

[@fatheroftheeverchosen5057]

It's in the BL book Fulgrim Eidolon brought him the blade

[@akiramasashi9317]

Right THAT'S the one. I always liked how he didn't even remember sending Eidolon to fetch the blade.

[@danielm.595]

@@akiramasashi9317 maybe because he didn't? That demon, despite being locked into one of worst punishments that a demon could receive, was still a servant of Slaneesh, maybe it called for that soldier to bring the sword to Fulgrim, knowing that if he didn't, Fulgrim would never had fallen into demonhood.

[@EchoMirage72]

I read or at least listened to that part and thought it was just in jest. He had no real reason to fire on Horus.

[@warden-3699]

Sorry if this is outdated, but near the end of the novel “Fulgrim”, doesn’t the deamon that possessed Fulgrim tell Horus that if it wasn’t for the deamon’s efforts, Fulgrim would have tried to run off and warn the Emperor? So wouldn’t that mean that Fulgrim would’ve definitely stayed loyal without the sword?

[@edwinrosario3849]

Whatever you do, DON'T READ REFLECTION CRACK'D! It will ruin the entire ending for what could have been an epic storyline, it was written but the author too which is just terrible. As for Fulgrim staying loyal, there is a good chance he could have, it was mainly his ego, vanity and inability to come to terms that he was going crazy due to being the legion's embodiment of perfection which led him down the Slaaneshi path. Well, that and the Laer blade messing with his perceptions to the Nth degree.

[@tauronicodemus362]

@@edwinrosario3849 Reflection Crack'd was an act of vandalism.

[@EchoMirage72]

That's the Daemon thinking that it was him doing all the work, and not Fulgrim. I don't think he would have gone to tell the Emperor anyway. Not after his meeting with Eldrad. He wanted to know first hand from Horus what was going on which is why he went to the 63rd Fleet at that time. I also don't think he was would have ever fired on Horus as they entered that system. That was more of a brotherly boast that he could have given that Horus' fleet was too focused planet side.

[@trialnerror3643]

I am still reading it, I am 2/3 of the way through. My every thought when I read it is "My god Emperor what an Idiot" But I agree that he was definitely leaning towards loyalist without the sword whispering poison in his ear. If he had one voice of reason to counter the demon. He might have stayed loyal. Maybe his brother Ferrus

[@ElectromagNick]

@@edwinrosario3849 Arch? Is that you?

[@carterhowlet8175]

*Jullius Kaesoran* : Father, that sword looks dangerous....... Don't grab it. *Fulgrim* : Shuddup JUUUUULLIUS! Have you seen the stats on this thing? I just cleared a room filled with level 7 xenos and I'll be damned if I don't get the only worthwhile peice of loot in this temple! I CAN'T LIVE ON XP ALONE! Warhammer 40k is just one big D&D campaign.

[@personmcperson4440]

Trans-human murder hobos confirmed.

[@Or_Am_I_Alpharius]

Your script of Fulgrim reminds me of Taako from The Adventure Zone!!

[@Gormathius]

@@Or_Am_I_Alpharius Even though abra ka-fuck-you is more Magnus' style.

[@synergy8879]

“no but you can just ask the emperor to make a better sword can you not?” “wait. you’re right. alright fill this fucking temple with promethium.”

[@carterhowlet8175]

@@synergy8879 Fulgrim: Julius, can we get forbidden laer blade? Jullius: No Father, we have forbidden laer blade at home. Forbidden Laer Blade at home:

[@ConnorMagillArt]

that moment when your having a brew and watching 40k Theories and your Fulgrim Fan art appears on the video... gonna write my mum telling her I have made it as an artist :D

[@40KTheories]

You have great talent sir ^^

[@ConnorMagillArt]

Thanks dude :) feel free to use my work any time, there is several more fan arts on my art station ( just google my name and artstation you should find me )

[@invaderHUNK]

Connor Magill time stamp plz

[@40KTheories]

FBI CIA the piece used as the thumbnail art, as stated in the description :)

[@garysuarez9614]

You, sir, rock in many awesome ways.

[@rocketpod1]

The biggest tragedy was that sculptor guy rip

[@40KTheories]

Agreed

[@kharnthebetrayer8251]

Ostyan Delaflour. He made the mistake of honestly critiquing Fulgrim's work, and then suggesting that Perfection shouldn't be the ultimate goal of art, that the beauty of art is in the imperfection. He then got way too absorbed into his work in making a statue of the Emperor, completely missing all the stuff going on the ship, until Fulgrim said hi with a spear to the chest.

[@kharnthebetrayer8251]

Hey, I'm a nice enough dude. I just go into a rage in combat. I was an equerry remember. I just tend to go a bit nuts. I mean, i'll chew your face right off if you piss me off or get too close while i'm fighting, but outside of that, I'm a decent enough guy

[@mercenarygundam1487]

Possibilities: Pull a Rogal Dorn and tend to the Emperor's hair keeping it pristine and clean Helping the Iron Hands Go back to painting art for the palace.

[@sanguiniusonvacation1803]

I got one for you Rem . What would have happened , if Sanguinius survived .

[@DaimoHope]

Oh shit.

[@garretthurt1529]

DaimoMusic What a twist.

[@Elliphaz]

Probably hovering about the emperor's shoulder like the fabulous hawkboy he is.

[@BUSSTISEBOOST]

Would of turned to Chaos eventually

[@asakura8329]

I like how your still in denial of Sanguinius' death since your name says Sanguinius on vacation.

[@barrybend7189]

What if Vulkan's hammer is possessed by a demon that makes him overly friendly?

[@phreakazoith2237]

Maybe the eldar smith god?

[@ryanlorenzo5003]

Nah. Gork & Mork.

[@larsschuller]

Like, some sort of Candy-Khorne?👻

[@phreakazoith2237]

Lars Schuller That's not Vulkan's hammer but another ancient weapon. The vicious candy cane of Candy-Khorne. Dyed white and red by primarch's blood, made of cursed sugar it hung many seasons on a foul pine in Nurgle's garden until the demon prince Candy-Khorne obtained it to give the galaxy dreams of a blood red Christmas.

[@ryanlorenzo5003]

So Vulkan saw the Candy-Khorne, his Orky side said “BRUDA I WANT DAT”, but his Primarch mind remembered Daemonic possession is a thing and that the Heresy happened and so forged his own copy but instead of filthy heretical heresy he enchanted it with xenos heresy, with a touch of Salamander.

[@ChainsawDunDeez]

You forgot that Fulgrim did a stealth manover with his fleet deep within Horus's own Fleet before confronting Horus about his actions..Fulgrim was also given the mission to convert Manus ( and also given the Athama Blade as a peace offering by Horus himself)...if Horus killed Fulgrim due to his loyalty..The Emporers Children fleet would have destroyed or crippled Horus's Fleet...

[@jesusisherelookbusy]

13:05 Ten minutes into Heresy and chill and he gives you this look...

[@karlfranz310]

SLAANESHI RAPE!

[@Elliphaz]

Even if he never got the blade he would never have the emperor's perfect hair. =P

[@poodlescone9700]

Heresy! Only the Holy Emperor has perfect hair. Please report yourself to the nearest Inquisitor for re-education and internment at thr local forced labor camp.

[@DaimoHope]

@@poodlescone9700 what hair, he is an living wizened corpse. Not much hair.

[@CryingZombie666]

You meant pre-Heresy Magnus's MAGNificent hair.

[@2guys1cliplol]

*fulgrim wants to know your location*

[@ZKtheMAN]

Adeptus Notificatus, *_REPRESENT._* Even if Fulgrim hadn't grabbed the Laer Blade, there are plenty more chances to fall to Chaos. Especially if you insist on perfection like that. Something tells me that that particular character trait would come back to bite him in the ass.

[@antoniokovac5170]

No pun intended hehehe

[@TaCo0oCaT]

Take all things in moderation, even moderation. There are lots of factions in 40k guilty of trying to be perfect in every way.

[@gama343]

It would have taken decades at minimum to corrupt Fulgrim the old fashioned way, by which time the Emperor would have finished the Webway of Mankind and spanked Horus' ass as red as Magnus' face for being uppity (or got Russ to do it for him...just like the others).

[@christiandauz3742]

Chaos always finds a way Tzeentch has over 10k plans to deal with the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves AND the Webway Project!

[@vert3432]

The Ultramarines are equally set on perfection though, and Gulliman is most definitely a loyalist

[@ruipinho619]

Remleiz what if... SPOILER ALERT FOR WOLFSBANE: DO NOT READ BELOW! What if Leman Russ had killed Horus on his flagship?

[@mikevasquez1103]

The best possible outcome would have resulted if the Emperor HAD SIMPLY BEEN HONEST WITH HIS PRIMARCHS/SONS!!! They would have been far less likely to be corrupted by chaos had they been warned of its dangers.

[@darthbloodborn]

I know right u can't defend against the forces of chaos if u don't know they exist fulgrim never would of picked up the laer blade if he knew who slanesh was

[@mikevasquez1103]

@@darthbloodborn Hell, Fulgrim might have even just gone full exterminatus on Laerin after winning the space/orbital battle. It was a chaos/xenos world. Better safe than sorry. Horus for his part, might have been wise enough not to attempt a ground assault on the obviously chaos infested moon of Davin. No anethame wound, no chaos muckabout, no Horus Heresy. I'm sure a Heresy still would have happened, but minus the Warmaster and the Palatine Phoenix.

[@darthbloodborn]

@@mikevasquez1103 for sure angron and Konrad curze would rebel

[@mikevasquez1103]

@@darthbloodborn Also Lorgar and Moryarion, but no Magnus(no need to try saving Horus then destroy the webway trying to warn the Emperor). Perturabo is a tossup. Every Primarch the Emperor wronged directly is a potential threat.

[@Robert-wf7xu]

But in books it was stated that without influence of the demon, he would NEVER betried Imperium.

[@nevilo1]

What if? What if?! WHAT IF?! What if The Primarchs don't bullied Magnus for being a Big Red Nerd, AH?!

[@zeppelincraft1443]

The bad news is all of the chaos gods were seeking Magnus as their champion. It would have gone really bad. We were technically saved by Tzeentch who wanted to win alone.

[@wanttogetfood]

Guilliman would had been around & had not let Imperium to stagnate

[@40KTheories]

Well Guilliman still having been around would have also depended on whether Fulgrim remained loyal or whether he never became a daemon prince, as if he still became a traitor while he wouldn't have become a daemon prince as soon as he did, he still could have at *some* point which could still lead to Guilliman becoming mortally wounded.

[@palikaloz]

and even if he didn't became a Daemon Prince, but turned traitor, he still could've mortally wounded Guilliman, as he was the greatest swordsman of all the Primarchs

[@sjoerddz]

not confirmed that he was in fact the greatest. one of the best yes but don't forget the lion, the angel and the khan.

[@palikaloz]

I'm pretty sure I've read it somewhere respectable that he was the best DUELIST. An expert swordsman, but not so good with any other melee weapons.

[@NutNapalm]

3:00 Guts and Griffith, M31

[@thesagepilgrim4441]

And yet again Remleiz has me fighting back the bits of Rubricae that seem to have blown into my eyes. The Phoenix and the Gorgon dueling Horus in a titanomachy of bloodied brotherhood and broken blades ALMOST makes up for the colossal chunk of soul I’d lose if all of that delicious, twisted III Legion lore suddenly vanished. I mean, Slaaneshmas just wouldn’t be the same without my boy, Lucious, and I’m STILL waiting for an explanation of Eidolon and his consorting. And don’t get me started on Fabius... Another incredible video.

[@40KTheories]

I'll be getting to Eidolon in due time ;)

[@alanmerino9440]

I'm glad Grittith took time out of his day to voice act Fulgrim in this video.

[@robertnelson9599]

I have wondered about this for a while now. Glad there is a video for it now. Edit: I personally think Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children would have remained loyal.

[@matthewbrune5490]

If The Emperor’s Pretty Boy didn’t pick up the sword, then he wouldn’t end up killing Ferrus

[@MrMortull]

The far future would have been measurably more Noblebright.

[@Sephvion]

He'd be up there with Sanguinius, in my book. He would have worked through his astronomical pride and be better for it. But, that didn't happen. So, he's down in the dumps with the rest of the heretics.

[@NingenSlayerZamasu]

Hey Rem I know you probably don’t take requests or what it’s of this magnitude but I have an idea for one. What if Rogal and Sanguinius were with The Big E during the final battle aboard Horus’s flagship? Would Sanguinius still die by Horus’s hands even with Big E backing him?

[@40KTheories]

I like that idea

[@BTDTChino]

With all three attacking Horus at once the fight would have been much shorter, and ending in absolute victory for the Imperium.

[@majormajorasic]

Ye but then we wouldn't have Ollanius Pius exist, and that is the greatest heresy of them all.

[@MrGrim]

Fulgrim and Ferrus is a story that makes me SO SAD

[@Plankensen]

I like how Lær means leather in Norwegian, so i can't help but imagine this blade is made of leather.

[@stevemanart]

The overarching theme of every traitor primarch is "had the inciting incident not happened, or even just happened in a slightly less severe way the Emperor probably wouldn't have died during his battle with Horus".

[@Sorain1]

Pretty much. Like any grand tragedy, the suggestion is that 'if only one of these things had been different...'

[@joevines3428]

The perfect legion would still be around, the emperor's children definitely fell the furthest (maybe joint with the thousand sons) all the other traitor legions were already cruel and heartless, compared to The Diplomatic and honourable 3rd.

[@Dimes607]

I think half his legion would have sided with Horus, and he would have died on Istavan 3. Horus would have sent him to lead the attack rather than speak with Ferris Manis. He would have been warned by Sol Tarvis and the two would have lead the holding action to their deaths.

[@DocWolph]

"Don't you wuss out on me Fulgrim! Do not turn traitor! Don't you DARE wuss out..." - Ferrus Manus, during their final duel. "You F**king wuss! You are WEEEEAAAAK, brother!" -Ferrus Manus after the duel. Of course, he could not say the words aloud, as he needed his lung to be attached to speak. But he thought it... real loud!

[@Nyctophora]

I think that, even if he had still fallen to Chaos, he wouldn't have ended up as a snake man. I don't think looking like the Laer is a coincidence.

[@NegiTaiMetal011]

I had thought of a theory of what if one of the traitor legions remained loyal in some circumstance. For this, I like to think of how Fulgrim remained loyal and attempted to warn the Emperor. It'd be interesting to see Ferrus and Fulgrim fighting side by side during the Siege of Terra.

[@stormraven8484]

you know there is one thing about the fan art of Fulgrim I find funny in that it reminds me of Griffith from Berzerk. In the way, he is presented.

[@RoosterCogburnPhD]

The laer blade should stay illegal because it is gateway heresy

[@williamamely7038]

Thank you for this video. I do enjoy these as they do make you think as to whether Fulgrim would remain loyal. As he always sought perfection in all things, as some point he would wonder why the Emperor (who Fulgrim saw as PERFECT) could create such flawed brothers as Curze, Russ and his Brothers of the missing Legions. If he'd begun to question the Emperor's own perfection, Fulgrim would then either accept this to be the case, or seek such perfection elsewhere. I am sure Lorgar or Horus would have introduced Fulgrim to the Chaos Gods, whom could be viewed as PERFECT. Then Chaos would whisper to Fulgrim that they can help him achieve the perfection he seeks. Thus Fulgrim may well have turned traitor anyway. The key would be Ferrus Manus' friendship with Fulgrim. Could Manus have enough influence over his brother that he could reject the DARK GODS and remain loyal? It is always intriguing to speculate about such possibilities.

[@oatlord]

Fulgrim doesn't exactly sound like what I would imagine a primarch sounding like.

[@trialnerror3643]

Since I am reading the book Fulgrim right now. It would be interesting to see how the Eldar talks would have gone. Then afterwards when he snuck up on Horus and was very tempted to take advantage of his position to blast apart his brothers fleet. Only to have the lear blade be brought into the bridge. Perhaps the Eldar meeting would've ended peaceful leading Fulgrim to trust their word more. Then perhaps the 23rd expeditionary fleet would've blasted Horus away

[@KainMcnab]

What if the Emperor wasn't incompetent.

[@40KTheories]

Heresy! *blam*

[@theeternalchronicler3072]

@@40KTheories Says the heretic who called the corpse emperor a "fucken asshole" and "terrible father".

[@TheWildmanden]

Hindsight is 20 20

[@adonisreaver2301]

All of you are heretics in this comment! *Exterminatus*

[@mattkennedy9308]

Sort of a tangent here but this interaction with the Laer artifacts is what I think happened with the Purged Legion and Rangdan Xenocide. Fulgrim was corrupted and fell to Chaos, I think the 11th was manipulated/corrupted to Xenos. If the 11th Primarch and his legion were specialist Xenos fighters and/or infiltrators and using Xenos tech against their Xenos enemies, then it would explain many positions and other things occuring in the Imperium. It would explain the Inquistion position on Xenos corruption being as bad as Chaos , The Tech-priests position on Tech Heresy, The subsequent purge of the 11th if they fell to Rangdan influence and opposed their brother marines waging Xenocide. Why even traitor Marines won't discuss them despite hating the Imperium and taking every chance to mock Loyalists even if they hate Chaos personally. The surviving un-corrupted being sent to the Ultramarines to ensure organisational and tactical adherence to avoid another fall. The paranoia of Xenos alliances with even the reasonable races like Tau or Eldar forces

[@xperson6649]

Always awesome to get lore and theories at once! Awesome Channel. Keep it going!

[@marcwittkowski5146]

I love the idea of Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus joining forces and striking down Horus. There really should be more in the way of visions of alternate futures/ history in these novels. Things like this make the whole topic so very bittersweet.

[@Slycarlo]

If he didnt he would be the best and perfect primarch next to sangiunious we all know the dove boy is the best primarch the big E has ever created

[@darrianweathington1923]

Farrus: FLESH IS WEAK! Fulgrim: I agree *genetically enhanced fist bump*

[@Gormathius]

I prefer the interpretation that Fulgrim's fall is mostly caused by the Laer Blade as it reinforces the idea that the primarchs are still human and just as susceptible to manipulation as anyone else.

[@marinescu0511]

Their pursuit of perfection was something that would've lead them down anyway, seeking the impossible isn't a sane goal

[@ethanpudvay5358]

Said the 1800's dudes about flying machines.

[@marinescu0511]

@@ethanpudvay5358 technology is always a good thing to strive for, but perfection is simply unattainable

[@sephiwolf4472]

Striving for perfection is a noble goal, obsession over obtaining perfection is folly. The difference being is that you do your best in all things when you strive for perfection. But when you're totally obsessed with obtaining perfection you can't obtain it fully and it can lead down a dark path of arrogance and hubris which are flaws and are imperfections. Obsession with perfection is basically self damnation in ones attempt at perfect salvation, in a sense anyway.

[@juditp1100]

Perfection leads to stagnation, stagnation leads to teadth, lets kill the galaxy XD

[@brigidtheirish]

If Fulgrim remained loyal and warned the Emperor of Horus's treachery, would that have happened before Magnus found out? If so, Magnus wouldn't have broken the barrier around the webway project and thus wouldn't have fallen to Chaos.

[@adt501]

Fulgrim was always weak. A fop and a dandy. I think a better question is, what would have happened to the primarchs if the Emperor had tought his sons about Chaos. Would Fulgrim have recognized the Laer blade for what it was?

[@chenli9778]

Well In a Scenario called Dorn Heresy, Emperor told Magnus and Logar about Chaos, then Magnus Saved Horus from Chaos, and Dorn Turn into Chaos...

[@FrstSpctr88]

"YOU ARE WEAK FULGRIM!" :P

[@theemissary1313]

I stand by the theory that he DID tell the primarchs, the missing two went mental before being erased, the emperor scrubbed everyone's memories of chaos and Malcador said "I told you so!" The emperor then points out that I told you so has a brother called shut the fuck up, okay!

[@chenli9778]

@lioheart2356 Yes

[@Noisius]

Then Lucius would not have done the "exorsism"

[@Shabtai1024]

I suppose they could always ask the Fulgrim clone being kept by the Necron collector.

[@Neko_Medic]

he would have finally achieved a hair greater and more glorious than that of the emperor.

[@VectorGhost]

the elder and imperium would have had an Alliance, that much we know for sure

[@deltasniper1023]

Another potential consequence is that if fulgrim did stay loyal and did manage to warn the emperor about the heresy, then magnus would possibly not have tried using his power to try and warn the emperor himself, thus potentially preventing the webway project from being damaged and prevented russ being sent after magnus which inevitably led to the burning of prospero.

[@vert3432]

If fulgrim had warned the emperor, they might have decided to call the Ultramarines in, and then when the traitors assaulted Terra, the Phalanx and Imperial fists would annihilate the space battle, while the legion of Ultramarines would demolish everything on the ground

[@Terex39]

Maybe it was all the Big Game played by Chaos. The Emperor went to warp to get the knowledge how to create Primarks. Maybe Chaos gave the info in a way that would make it easy in the future to corrupt them?

[@MRDicristofaro]

this was pretty interesting and could have changed everything possibly . you should do a video on how it would be if the primarchs landed on there brothers planets rather then the one we see. imagion how much different Vulkan be if he grew on on Nostramo or vise versa if the night haunter was Nocturne , or what if perturabo was the first son found .

[@bossshun9]

Even if Fulgrim left the sword alone, he would have ended up failing to chaos due to his need for some power and the urge to be perfect.

[@swagpharius_swolemegon]

What are you, chaos lover?

[@clairestark9024]

Its weird how his pursuit of perfection turned him and legion into the least effective of the traitor legions.

[@hfar_in_the_sky]

The cynical part of me says that the Chaos Gods would have finagled things in such a way that it would have wound in the hands of some poor sap regardless. And if it wasn’t Fulgrim, it would’ve been someone whose corruption would have been just as beneficial to the Chaos Gods’ plans in the long run. Because that’s just how they roll.

[@gwyndolin1536]

Fulgrim probably would of become the most Perfect of Heroes and of been the decisive factor in saving the Imperium! Not the hero they deserve, but the one they got.

[@lordclangtheintolorable2094]

Esh. Imagine if in the warp the most powerful god would be one who just didnt care of any, The uncaring god of sorts, as in they wouldnt even do anything at all.

[@rosicroix777]

Great "VVhat if.." topic , keep up the great vvork .

[@hitomisalazar4073]

Eh, I don't think not having the Laer Blade would keep him Loyalist. After all, he seems to be on board before he ever got it. I'd see the most likely answer myself what you proposed. Ferrus Manus kills Fulgrim at the Drop Site Massacre, and Fulgrim won't pull the trigger (or rather swing the blade) without the daemon's prompting and pushing him towards it. That hesitation however seemed not to exist for Ferrus, who probably would have slaughtered him. Though for another source of Slaaneshi corruption for the Emperor's Children outside of the Laer Temple, we also have the strange music that was in the Choral City of Isstvan III, as our good old "Best swordsman in the galaxy" jobber Lucius the Eternal discovered and was similarly enraptured by. Though missing Isstvan III might have evaded that as well... but not sure that Fulgrim would have stayed loyal. After all he seemed to be the one primarch who really joined Horus less out of "I HATE MY DAD!" teenager angst and more out of loyalty and trust towards Horus. A trait shared only really (questionably) by Alpharius.

[@Wimpiethe3]

Well Alpharius was still loyal after the vision of the cabal and he didn't seem to consider the question of his friendship with horus much, at least not in that book. But that's besides the point.

[@kharnthebetrayer8251]

Alpharius Omegon.. I don't think it's really possible to figure out their motivations. Secrecy is their thing. From the novel, it seems like they joined Horus to save the rest of the Galaxy (humanity dies anyway, so lets save the other races of the galaxy), but then, can we really be sure that they joined for that, The Imperium was made on hating Xenos and all the Primarchs seemed to be supportive of that (except Horus with the Interex, but that had some complicated things). So maybe they joined for another reason?

[@hitomisalazar4073]

Why I said questionably. I don't know. Lore has always been that the only Primarch the Alpha Twins was close to was Horus. Obviously have their own rivalry in general lore with other legions that they felt inferior to/unable to match in the eyes of others (like the Ultramarines). But definitely less "I HATE MY DAD!" than most of the Traitors for joining.

[@markcarico546]

In addition, Fulgrim would have probably warned the Emperor after the talk with the eldar or at least discussed it with another primarch (probably Manus). Also the Iron Hands would have been at Istavaan 5 in full force instead of just taking the first company. If the Iron Hands were able to break the traitor line pretty much single handedly during the real battle then with Fulgrim and the third along side they probably would have been so far into the enemy that the other legions dropping in behind them wouldn't have had as much effect and the loyalists (provided that the Raven Guard and Salamanders were cowards who ran away from the fight in this scenario) would have been able to break the traitor line and seek cover against the second wave instead of being out in the open. If Fulgrim had just done his job the horus heresy would have ended on Istavaan.

[@CommanderBohn]

Well him not killing Ferrus and not turning traitor are the most possible things.

[@madara4447]

What if Magnus the Red stayed loyal and helped Malchidor create the grey knights

[@eyeofgnosis558]

The Emperor's Children would have most likely stayed loyal but perhaps fanatically so, much like the Iron Hands, meaning they might dash themselves upon the alter of war and be almost wiped out due to their zealous need to see Horus defeated (perfection vibes)

[@theemissary1313]

In addition to being more focussed on Terra, they and the Iron Warriors would have been at greater strength and a more cohesive force and having not been at war with each other on Iydris (?)

[@carolineturingds]

If I recall correctly, Fulgrim only won the battle because of the Laer blade, so without it, he would've had no chance against Ferrus. That is, ofc, assuming he'd turn traitor anyway, which doesn't make any sense. Even if all of this happened, with the Laer blade not being picked up by Fulgrim, maybe the Emperor's Children wouldn't have been targeted by Slaanesh, and would have simply remained as renegade or chaos united marines. That's what I think anyway.

[@alexanderbraun7887]

Can one suggest: What if Leman Russ didn't burn Prospero (but joined with Magnus to aid the Imperium)?

[@EchoMirage72]

It wasn't the Blade that led to the downfall of the Legion. It was the Temple that did that. It was only those who had entered the temple that truly fell to Slaneesh, which includes The Rememberances. It had nothing really to do with the blade.

[@texasallstar6969]

It's entirely plausible that if fulgrim and ferrus had been united. The heresy may have been stopped by them both. Remeber what the eldar farseer tried to tell ferrus. That he was actually one of the most important primarchs and that if he did not give into his baser and more rash attitudes he would save the emperor.

[@matthewsykes4814]

He retired and took up knitting woolen socks and scarfs

[@matthewsykes4814]

@lioheart2356 Knitted ones, hee

[@jammearlabellar3860]

That's the first Bequa Kynska art that i see as appealing

[@azhrei77]

For some reason his betrayal of his loyalist marines hit me hard

[@Erebdai]

I imagine that Fulgrim would have listened to Eldrad Ulthran. Perhaps he would have stopped Horus from falling in a more direct way then Magnus did. I wish Fulgrim would have forced the demon back into the blade and then given it to Lucious. That would have made luscious a lot more powerful.

[@jimtaramas6081]

Laer Blade without the Laer Blade Fulgrim would probably have herd the Eldar warning for Horus and then stop him, he had a clear shot to do so.

[@darthlazurus4382]

I dinnae think Fulgrim would have sided with Horus without the demonic influence. He was a loyalist and the Eldar warning is something he'd have taken seriously.

[@briantaulbee5744]

If Fulgrim never got corrupted and successfully warned the Emperor about Horus ahead of Istavaan, then among other things the Thousand Sons would not have fallen (at least, not in the specific way they did).

[@xenax95]

The Wordbearers fell to Chaos before Horus did, Erebus was the one who swayed him to chaos in the temple of the serpent.

[@TheMemphisxlr8]

Would Fulgrim have allowed Fabius Bile's genetic experiments, even without the blades influence?

[@Sternly]

Very late to this video but I only recently finished the HH book Fulgrim and the Fulgrim Primarch book. I believe that without the Laer Blade he would have never turned traitor. Fukgrim was always one of the more loyal Primarchs in my mind and most proud in serving the Emperor. Evidence towards Fulgrim's inherent loyalty was that bot only did he consider ambushing Horus when Eldrad notified him of Horus' possible betrayal but when the 2 primarchs met and Horus pitched him the idea of the Heresy, Fulgrim initially wanted nothing more then to kill Horus where he stood despite having been influenced by the Laer Blade for months now. In fact Fulgrim only refrained from doing so due to the daemon in the blade forcing him to stay his hand. So yeah I think Fulgrim without Chaos influence would never have entertained Horus' plans and would be one of the most vocal and determined primarch in stopping him. There is another issue however. I believe Fulgrim would have stayed loyal but I cabt say the same for his legion as a whole. One of the other contributing factors was the experiments Fabius Bile started conducting on the legion to heighten their abilities and senses, sanctioned by Fulgrim, which began before the Legion took the Temple. The manner of Bile's experiments would likely have resulted in a significant portion of the legion growing out of control from under their Primarch. I think something very similar to what happened to the Raven Guard in the Dornian Heresy AU would happen to the Emperor's Children, where essentially the legion (or at least most of it) would have fallen to Chaos despite their primarchs wishes. Though this would likely have happened over a much longer period.

[@brandonaughtman9091]

The only thing that comes to mind for me is that he would not turn into a selfish naga that we all wish to set on fire. Most of all, Slaanesh would NOT have a strong fighting force in his/her name and would still be the weakest Chaos God and possibly be overthrown by Khorne, who finally had The World Eaters at his command.

[@tysonwollas235]

If the Emperors Children stayed loyal and told Daddy about Horus’s bad behavior maybe Magnus wouldn’t have had to do what he did to tell daddy.

[@whattomake1510]

Their could be a strong chance that magnus would be a loyalist if Fulgrim told the emperor

[@NemFX]

Fulgrim is still trapped in the painting in La Fenice.

[@NetMoverSitan]

You did a similar video on Angron. (e.g. 40K Conan the Barbarian)

[@kastor6497]

40k theories can you do a video on if jhagatai and fulgrim landed on each other's planets like fulgrim on chogoris and the khan on chemos (sorry if I mispronounced the names of the planets) I heard from somewhere that fulgrim was supposed to land on the khan's planet and vice versa I just wanted to know what would've changed in the great crusade if the laughing god didn't mess with them

[@ryanbuckman1731]

Can you do a story on Cassor A death company dreadnought who appears in the Sheild of Baal book? He is a interesting character

[@AsbestosMuffins]

what was with the primarches and picking up horrible cursed blades, like why didn't the emperor go "Yo my sons, those blades are all quite evil and should be chucked into the eye of terror. I'm ur father."

[@ForrestFox]

Was it by pure chance/unluck Fulgrim found the Laer planet, or was he sent there by a higher command (Its mentioned in the books that the warmaster and the astartes follows the orders coming from earth, not necessary orders from the Emperor himself but maybe those under the Emperor)? Is there a chance this higher command on Earth is corrupted, knowing he needed to send Fulgrim to the Laer planet for the chance Fulgrim would find the blade just in time as Horus became corrupted? The odds that these two would become corrupted by pure chance at the same time is too low.

[@scottniebel7869]

Fulgrim might have sided with Manus and allied with him against Horus.

[@Epifairos]

Well, the daemon claimed that Fulgrim would've stayed loyal to the Emperor if not for him. But who knows? Maybe it just lied. That's what deamons do. Or it could've been afraid that Horus might consider finding a way to purge it from his brother (as Horus visibly didn't like the idea) so it tried to prove its usefulness to him. Or it just bragged. It was a deamon of Slaanesh after all. But I believe that Fulgrim was no rebel by nature. Immensely prideful, easy to offend - yes. He'd likely challenge Horus to a duel at the notion of his betrayal if not for the accursed blade. He felt conflicted even under its influence. Hell, he even almost opened fire at Horus's fleet. So I could see him giving that order and then taking a boarding action upon the Vengeful Spirit. Maybe he would die there. And his Legion would probably be counted amongst the Shattered Legions as it was vastly outnumbered at that moment. There would be no crippling of the Iron Hands who would be much stronger for the Istvaan V engagement. Another thing is the meeting with Eldrad which wasn't mentioned. Maybe beacuse it's result might not be much different. I could totally see Fulgrim being offended by the notion of the noblest of his brothers being corrupted and lashing out against the "treacherous alien liars" just like Ferrus Manus did. The only difference would be Eldrad feeling no Slaaneshi corruption from him. And maybe coming later after he realized the truth and telling him "Told you so" :D and maybe offering his help again (If we suppose his survival of the boarding action). Did anyone felt him being out of character in the Angel Exterminatus after you've read Fulgrim? I mean. When he regained control of his body? Well... yes, he couldn't be the same because the storyline needs corrupted Fulgrim and leaving him no way back into possible redemption because that would be the most probable course of action. But it felt all too sudden...

[@darthbane1629]

Well He Wanted Perfection,only to Became a Slave of Ignorance and some Power, Tragedy , Great Work as always thank you 😎!!!.

[@kiesarisunny13]

‘What have I done!’ -Filgrim and not Anikan

[@johnevans5706]

Have you done a theory on who Doomrider was before his ascension? I have a bit of a theory after listening to master of the hunt.

[@erikdreki4726]

Hey Remleiz, do you think this could have greatly changed human to elder relations, since it was the blade's corruption of Fulgrim that caused the meeting to fail? Maybe you could do a part 2 some time on how a loyal Fulgrim(or any traitor really) could effect the Galaxy at large not just the Heresy. Just a thought great video man

[@40KTheories]

I'm not entirely sure, Eldrad sought meetings with three Primarchs over the course of the crusade/heresy (Manus, Fulgrim and Vulkan) with only Vulkan actually paying attention to the Farseer, though that was admittedly when the heresy was in full swing. It would appear that it was due to Vulkan listening to Eldrad that he returned during the War of The Beast

[@erikdreki4726]

@@40KTheories yeah thought about it as I was typing that Fulgrims own pride and arrogance would have probably ruined the meeting even if he wasn't corrupted, still though I'm loving these alternate history theories.

[@goldilocksguy5170]

Could be worst. He could've of picked up a behelit instead.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

Fulgrim had attempted to lure Ferris to the side of the rebellion before the drop site massacre. This was the result have the temptation of a demon whispering in his ear night and day. If the demon were not whispering in his ear, then no doubt Fulgrim would have remained loyal with Ferris. If this were the case, I am not entirely sure that the Death Guard or the Iron Warriors would have changed sides. The Traitors would never have had a numeric advantage. Mortarion and Perturabo were both cautious sorts and likely would not have gone along with Horus unless the circumstances were just so. I had always viewed the Emperor's Children as the fulcrum point of the traitors. Of course the Sons of Horus would have turned, the Word Bearers were already corrupted, and Angron was in Khorne's clutches with the nails. The Alpha Legion would not have taken an alternative that was not offered by the Cabal, since Chaos's success was unlikely. As we recall, Fulgrim aided in the spreading of the lodges, but no more. Fulgrim also aided in Horus' corruption, but not this time. The entire dynamic of the primarchs would have been different. Without Fulgrim, Chaos didn't stand a chance. I am hoping for his clone.

[@theeternalchronicler3072]

Traitors. You wrote down traders. Also Oris. Funny name. Having hope in a imperfect clone. Your fooling yourself if you think that thing will achieve anything.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

Dog-gone auto-correct, I hate "helpful" features. Maybe it is imperfect, but being slightly off of an original which can be seen to have not been correct certainly should offer hope, especially when it expressed remorse.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

The 3rd wasn't anywhere on the road to Chaos. Everything goofy took place after the Laer Blade. Sure, they were quirky, but so are the Wolves. Perturabo is a front-running, emo, spoiled baby. He would not have had the guts to turn traitor unless the "numbers" were in his favor. Otherwise he would turned traitor well before. His sister laid out the entire reality to him right before he killed her. He was given the tough task because his father had faith that he could achieve it. Perturabo was used for the same sort of tasks by Horus and he didn't rebel. As a result, I don't think that it was by virtue of his assignments that he turned traitor.

[@theeternalchronicler3072]

@@kingbaldwiniv5409 Perturabo only turn traitor because in a time of emotion instability he massacred his own world. When he finally came to his senses he was horrified what he and his legion had done. What's more is Perturabo knew that the Emperor would never forgive his atrocitie. Horus seeing his brother emotional turmoil took advantage of him and instead of scorning him he praised him. Perturabo seeing one of his brothers lend him a hand in his most desperate hour latched on to Horus "sympathy" and understanding eased his mind that was filled with uncertainty and guilt. That's what turned Perturabo. Not the mistreatment of him and his sons, not Ferrus's hammer. The lord of Iron turned because of weakness and brotherhood. Even after officially turning traitor Perturabo would still think of better days of the crusade and being at his father side lamenting the war.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

There we disagree. There was no taint of Chaos in the 3rd in my reckoning any more than any of the loyal legions. Could you point out where the chaotic taint in the 3rd was before Laer? I must have missed it. Perturabo didn't go traitor until after his temper tantrum of slaughtering his own home world. The monolithic mood swing took place after the revelation provided to him by his sister and the stunning realization that our Autistic brother primarch finally put together. By that time, other legions were already going over. Horus was able to seduce Perturabo by making excuses for Perturabo's excesses and weakness. Further, as Perturabo would always practice, Perturabo did the math. Horus sold him on his new alliance where he would be "properly appreciated and loved". It seemed as though the future was more tolerable with a Horus alliance. Perturabo was not a Chaos puppet until well after he turned traitor. In the mean time, Perturabo was played for a fool by everybody on Horus' side (except Magnus), and those brothers that actually put trust in him (the Lion), he would stab in the back just like he did with his adopted father, his sister, the Emperor, and Dantioch. Perturabo is among the WORST primarchs, along with Ferrus Manus and Angron, he is a complete loser.