What is a Mary Sue?

[@rang4889]

Kirito is a mary sue. Hes selfish and bland and still gets unconditional love from nearly the entire cast. Hes basically treated as a god and the story mainly flows around him. He hardly ever struggles with monsters or other players....EVER.

[@periodicpete]

This is true

[@cael4065]

Who?

[@plains7000]

The books say otherwise

[@LiteratureDevil]

Very well done

[@periodicpete]

Come be on Every Frame A Pause, Devil. You'd love it!

[@orionaugustwatson]

@@periodicpete kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIOkqp-Oe9yliNE

[@periodicpete]

@@orionaugustwatson Wow. I'm genuinely impressed. Never before have I seen such a blatant misrepresentation of anti-TLJ arguments. Truly this is a strawman unlike any other I've encountered. Thank you for showing me this. I got a pretty good laugh out of it XD

[@qdgamer7183]

Goddamn well fck done

[@qdgamer7183]

Fcking well done!!!!

[@m.e.3251]

I love what you said about how the Mary Sue isn't just a *character* problem, it's a *story* problem. I think that really hits the nail on the head. Great video! :)

[@periodicpete]

Thanks man Hope you'll check out the follow up video I feel like I got some things wrong on this one that I felt were fixed in the follow up.

[@michaeldorsey9231]

This was a very well thought out essay, and it actually added something to the discussion; good on you! On another note, I don’t agree that the antagonist having sue traits like being overpowered always improves tension in a story. In some cases making the antagonist too capable makes the story boring in its own way, because the heroes efforts will mean nothing until the plot cheats to let them win. Off the top of my head such antagonists include the super Predator from Predator 2019, Ghidorah from GODZILLA Planet Eater, and Yhwach from Bleach.

[@periodicpete]

I can agree with that. There is a correct way to utilize that power to make it threatening. If used incorrectly, then the threat becomes an illusion once again, but in reverse. This could be akin to Starkiller Base, or the Star Destroyer fleet from RoS. Additionally, if the villain is too powerful for the heroes to overcome, then it will make it that much more likely that the way they're defeated will be a copout or undermine their power entirely. Which will absolutely make the threat of their power feel like an illusion. Yhawach is a great example. In fact, I'm sure there are a lot of shonen antagonists that fall victim to one of the many symptoms of DBZ syndrome. There's only so many times a villain can say their power level is bigger than last season's villain before it gets ridiculous.

[@michaeldorsey9231]

“ Not true. It doesn’t make the story boring in its own way. The plot doesn’t cheat to let them win.” There are right and wrong ways to do every aspect of a story; overpowered villains are not exempt from this.

[@michaeldorsey9231]

“ None of those antagonists are right . Antagonists don’t have Sue traits and it DOES improve tension in a story dude“ I was specifically talking about the Sue trait of being overpowered or hyper competent. The super Predator was immune to conventional gunfire and the like until later in the film; it’s invincibility bent to the plot. “Cheat” is probably the wrong word for anime Ghidorah, but the “battle” is still boring in its own right. Ghidorah can’t be touched by Godzilla, making the fight ridiculously one-sided, until he could be touched and Godzilla made quick work of Ghidorah. There’s no creative or tense back and forth, it just switches from being one sided one way to being one sided the other way. Yhwach had to be killed off by a deus ex machina from how overpowered he was. Ichigo’s efforts in training to get his true Zanpakto didn’t matter, especially when Yhwach just took his power after that. Ichigo didn’t win because of his own efforts, he won because Uryu was conveniently gifted with the one thing that could cancel Yhwach’s power. Losing because you lost your power isn’t creative, it’s convenient.

[@teriosshadow17]

@@michaeldorsey9231 You know i felt kinda the same while watching Resident Evil Vendetta CGI animated film. Its villain, Glenn Arias who is this arms merchant is introduced in the film by kicking Chris's ass at the start and end of the game. But fight becomes heavily one sided once you realize Arias is this hypercompetent martial artist out of nowhere that could not be touched and only lost to Chris due to conveniently broken glass ceiling that Chris used to his ass through, not by his own efforts. I do love villain that does show to legitimate threat to Protagonist but when you try too hard by making villain too invincible it becomes boring to watch.

[@firestriker3580]

Yes It does improve tension dude

[@throttlebrah]

Antagonist can't be mary sue Aizen Sosuke and Madara Uchiha: "Everything goes as i planned to be"

[@dangerdash4393]

Sidious: I have foreseen all of this

[@smudboy]

1. Author/insert are the key factor of writing a Mary Sue. You don't write crap unintentionally. Where else would the Mary Sue come from, unless the author then has to explain it's existence in lore or some reveal later on. 2. The Everyman cannot be a Mary Sue. Those two character roles cannot exist in the same character. You cannot be all powerful, perfect, virtuous, etc., and be the Everyman. 3:50 "An ideal Mary Sue is going to be motivated by what the story believes is the right thing, not by what they believe is the right thing. And they will make decisions off that motivation without question or second thought." Sounds like you agree with Mary Sue's are, in fact, an author/insert.

[@periodicpete]

So, #2 I completely agree with. I was never calling the everyman a mary sue. I was saying that some people get the two tropes confused and that they're not only different but there's nothing wrong with an everyman because there tend to be some attributes of the Everyman that bleed into select Mary Sues. We don't disagree here. But #1 is something I do disagree on. There's nothing integral about the self insert attribute to the mary sue trope. Sure, it can be an indicator that the character is a mary sue, and there's the precedent the trope spawned from self-insertion. But nothing mandates that they must be a self insert. Plus, to determine if a character is a self-insert, we'd need to know the author's intent or even just general knowledge on the author. But if they're either dead or unknown, this factor will often be an unreliable determinant. You're an EFAPer, right? So you probably know how to be objective. Take note of all of your most defining attributes, strengths, and most importantly your flaws, and do so in great detail. But be honest and be objective. Then write a character based on those attributes, essentially making it a self insert of yourself. Unless you're a mary sue in real life, the result should be the opposite of a mary sue. EDIT: I made a follow up covering some of Smudboy and Literature Devil's responses to my video. This should cover my own response to both of them a bit more thoroughly. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5PWd32MdriMadU

[@arklaw8306]

If I self-insert in my fanfics, I let my laziness, social anxiety and sarcasm appear. If I just wrote an idealized flawless version of myself the story accommodates, then we'd have a Mary Sue.

[@Tengokuchi]

@@arklaw8306 good point. Requiring the self insert part would also assume the author sees themselves as perfect.

[@DownThePlotHole]

Interesting. The term seems to have exploded into the main stream since The Force Awakens, and that probably accounts for a fair number of people not fully grasping the definition. I love the section where you mention the power of the character shows the tension to be an illusion. I don't know how this video ended up in my recommendation list, but good work. :)

[@periodicpete]

Honestly, I'm surprised it ended up in anyone's recommended list. Your channel looks neat. I'll give it a look :)

[@DownThePlotHole]

@@periodicpete I'm glad it did. I enjoyed it a lot. :D Thank you for the kind words about my channel too. :p

[@massivetism]

This is one of the most interesting videos I've seen in a while, you raise a lot of points about this subject that I hadn't before considered. This video is honestly better than the majority of video essays I've seen from channels with hundreds of thousands of subs. You have earned a new sub. Great stuff my man

[@periodicpete]

Thank you. It really means a lot. Especially since I always felt the video was a bit rushed just so I could have an upload for my channel's anniversary. Criticism is also appreciated. If you can think of anything I could do better in my next video, every little bit helps.

[@AhsokaFanboy1138]

Like everyone else, you ignore how Kylo was shot in the side by an oversized gun. The fact he's alive at all makes him overpowered.

[@davidvar1027]

he tells us what it means at 3:20 your welcome

[@Señor-Donjusticia]

A lot of good points here, though I am uncertain on the idea that a villain can’t be a Mary Sue. True, a Mary Sue is almost always the protagonist, but I believe that an antagonist could still be poorly written to the point that he/she bends the story around him/herself and sucks life out of the characters. In this scenario, they could destroy story tension by making the audience question why in the world they haven’t already won. But what a everyone else’s thought on the matter?

[@SeanFication]

It's the nature of things that the antagonist always ends up losing to the protagonist. Which is why the antagonist, no matter how powerful and central to the story, is not a Mary Sue. Darth Vader, for instance, is clearly not any sort of Mary Sue, in spite of his great power and great importance to the plot of the Star Wars movies.

[@minespatch]

Thank you for reminding me of how bad Ready Player One the book was.

[@periodicpete]

You're welcome : )

[@the.axolotlgirl]

I don’t get how people totally ignore Batman being a Mary sue People find him attractive He is filthy rich A hero Is able to take down very strong enemies despite just being a human Super smart Don’t even get me started on the Batman who laughs

[@Mansplainer2099-jy8ps]

Arguably the difference is Batman is pitting himself against very strong enemies (e.g. they have guns, he has gadgets and kung fu) despite just being a human and he is able to take them down due to dedicating years of hard work, not by just being more awesome naturally than the plot needs him to be because the plot has him be that awesome naturally for the sake of them being awesome (although some writers do that with the character unfortunately). If we compare Captain America, basically no one would like Steve Rogers if he just grew up on a farm superhumanly good at everything with no effort, enlisted and just whipped up the indestructible bouncy shield himself in a lab.

[@timewarpdrive77]

I don't get how batman and luke could be mary sues... they fail regularly and they had to train to get to where they are...

[@Binzob]

Luke absolutely is

[@timewarpdrive77]

@@Binzob Citation needed

[@dhimas3162]

back then when star wars 7 came out, I'm trully believed that finn was the main character

[@estaticethan1752]

I'd like to thank you for being the first time I am introduced to OPM and got any interest in the anime. It was fun and the season 1 song is just top notch.

[@periodicpete]

OPM is easily one of my favorite anime. And season 1 is, with little doubt in my mind, some of the best anime has to offer.

[@grand_howler]

Funny thing is, i had never even heard of the term “Mary Sue” until people started labeling Rey from Star Wars as such. So i finally decided to look it up and here i am. Thanks for such a detailed explanation with plenty of examples to support your points.

[@periodicpete]

You're welcome. : ) Feel free to check out my follow up video, where I cover some responses to this video and correct a few things I felt I did wrong.

[@x-man9473]

I think a nice example of a character that would have been a Mary Sue if writter in a different context is Bruce Banner's Hulk (hear me out). The Hulk is written as a nearly invulnerable force, that's incredibly large, has inconsistent super strenght, has good speed, and an incredible leaping ability. The reason he's not a Mary Sue is because the character Bruce doesn't like the Hulk and has little-to-no control over when he turns into the Hulk. His anger gives him the mentality of a raging child, which allows opponents to outsmart him. Also, his transformation makes him HATED, by society and sometimes his own allies. Despite being an unstoppable hero, the character and plot is written in such a way that Bruce Banner almost appears more vulnerable than he does unstoppable.

[@SSL_2004]

I think a lot of people tend to confuse Mary Sue's with flat/static characters like Superman, Goku, Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. Many people tend to incorrectly believe that for a character to be good, they have to change on a fundamental level. And while characters like these are needed for story to be good, this dynamic trait is not necessarily needed for a CHARACTER to be good. As a matter of fact, for dynamic characters to work, there must also be static ones. Wear a dynamic character's impact comes from seeing the change within themselves,static characters are the ones who incite change onto others. And therein lies the problem. Characters like Rey are very clearly flat characters. They learn literally nothing by the end of the story, and their philosophy stays essentially the same, but they're being forced into a dynamic character role. in this particular case, the hero's journey. You can't do that. The hero's journey format necessitates change in the character in question by the end be it positive or negative. This change is often incited by static characters. If the character exits this cycle the exact same way they left it, then your story is meaningless. Luke changed as a person on a fundamental level by the end of not just the first movie, but the entire trilogy. Even Anakin, while undoubtedly being a sue in EP 1, eventually fulfilled that character ark, just a negative one instead of a positive one. Rey is forced into a situation where she needs an Arc to be interesting, and isn't given one. Had Rey been some kind of mentor figure to some other character, nothing would have been wrong with her.

[@BishopWalters12]

Superman is one of the all time great characters.

[@bluejay3748]

Rey is like that Minecraft Kid that gets OP stuff in creative and puts it back on survival

[@Azur_Vita]

underrated Video! short and accurate

[@evangrover8414]

Isn’t Luke antagonistic to Rey in The Last Jedi? You say that respectable characters all will like that character, but the most loved character of Star Wars is upset that she’s there, afraid of her, and never allowed her what she wanted. That’s why her character development really mattered in that film. And in the movie, she had her dreams of her family destroyed, and failed to receive the proper training she was hoping for. That’s why later in the film, she struggled much more than Kylo in the throne room fight. You may call her a Mary Sue inTFA, but that is certainly not the case in Rian Johnson’s film. He was stuck with her abilities from the last film though, so she had to remain powerful.

[@nathanjora7627]

Evan Grover She didn’t struggle more than Kylo though. Hell, she helped him. CORRECTION : she did struggle more than him, though that doesn’t detract from her being a Mary Sue since she still manages to kill three highly trained imperial guards without having training of her own in lightsaber, and no professional level fight training in her usual weapon either, and she still helps him. Also, not a Mary Sue in Rian’s movie ? So you didn’t see her move all these boulders at the end of this movie despite her using the force only for the third time and we never seeing any force user pulling up something as big as that ? You didn’t see her expertly taking down TIE fighters despite no training in dogfight ? You didn’t see her being loved by everyone for no reason except by characters who were wrong or bad guys (except Kylo, who for some reason likes her despite her being a nobody to him) ? Etc. If anything, she is more of a Mary Sue in this movie than in the previous one.

[@Si_Mondo]

You need to watch the throne room fight again. She despatched more guards than he did. She also saves him. Also, Johnson had finished TLJ script before TFA had finished filming so Johnson's story was Johnson's story. Luke rejecting her is an attempt to bring him down to raise her up in the minds of the audience. Though it is the better decision for the story than him just willingly training her, Johnson doesn't use the opportunity to really develop her character. I wanna know what character development you saw her go through because I saw the same character at the end of TLJ as I did at the beginning of TFA.

[@nathanjora7627]

Evan Grover oh yeah, someone the last commentator bring up I forgot too : Luke indeed antagonizes Rey, but a Mary Sue isn’t loved by all, a Mary Sue is loved by all people except (though not necessarily) people presented as bad or wrong, Luke falling into the latter category, if not both.

[@nathanjora7627]

Si Mondo Did Johnson finish his story before TFA ended ? Have you a source for that, it seems genuinely strange Oo I heard that he discarded JJ’s story ideas, and went with his first draft, but never that he actually finished his story before JJ finished his movie 0_0

[@Harrinsain]

yes, Luke is portrayed as antagonistic to Rey. But Luke is portrayed as being in the wrong throughout the entire movie. What the film tries to sell as his character arc is that Rey was right the entire time about him coming back. Luke is the one who is told he needs to change, not Rey. If anything, this just feeds into the trope. And her parents supposedly being no one, doesn't detract from the Mary sue either, not only is she over it by the next film, but it is ret-conned to not be the case and after this film, Rey doesn't do anything to overcome whatever emotional turmoil may or should have come from that epiphany. Hell, when she finds out she's a Palpatine, she says "nah lol" and steals the Skywalker name.

[@whitewing2]

When people are complaining Saitama's OP as a mary sue, just remember he is like King Midas, whos everything he touches turns to gold, it didnt become a mary sue trait, but rather it became the conflict or the obstacle they must overcome Same as Saitama, his strenght is his biggest flaw, remember in the 1ep, when there is a climatic battle between him and monsters from underground? Thats what he wants but instead he woke up and beat them all effortlessly. A blessing/curse

[@abbysworld05]

At first I thought my OC was a Mary Sue but the more I think about it, it’s not a Mary Sue because she’s not the center of the universe, and she gets helped by the rest of the characters in the story and overall in my opinion I made an interesting story and made my character interesting and well thought out without worrying about it being a Mary Sue cuz I could care less so it’s funny how people who tried to not make Mary Sues ended up making Anti Sues cuz she was still at the center of the universe but I didn’t care and still don’t care cuz all I want is to write a character and write a story that I like and ended up not making a Mary Sue since she’s not at the center of the universe

[@SaikaDarkmoon]

So I'm a boomer I guess and genuinely didn't know what a marry sue was, Found this by chance and holy crap I'm shocked this doesn't have more views. Really good video and I had fun watching. ♪

[@year111]

What also separates Luke from rey sue is Luke still needs help from others. He wouldn’t have survived without the help of Obi-Wan, R2, and Han. While rey just solos everything and everyone else are reduced to npc status.

[@thetrib1]

your feelings are confusing reality for you

[@teriosshadow17]

The way i see the term Villain Sue is to make villain so overpowered that who defeats heroes easily at every turn and can only lose not by hero's efforts but because plot says so. Or that villain loses but it was what he planned that leads him to victory. Just look at Aizen from Bleach.

[@periodicpete]

See, I thought the same thing. But it doesn't really seem to be an issue. The thing about a Mary Sue protagonist is that their capabilities make the conflict much less compelling. An antagonist doesn't face that issue because they aren't the one the story is focused around. Provided the story isn't meant to focus on them, the "villain sue" still acts how an antagonist should. Their opposition to the protagonist, and especially given how powerful they are and how difficult they can be to overcome, seems to me would make the conflict more compelling. The way they're defeated is likely to be contrived, but that sounds like more of a regular issue than a "sue" issue. Because a contrived defeat seems to indicate a lack of favoritism from the plot. It's still poorly written, but not all poorly written characters are Mary Sues. And everything up until then doesn't seem like favoritism either because antagonists, by their nature, are meant to be favored by the plot in order to drive the conflict in a meaningful way. But I admit I could be misinformed. What're your thoughts though?

[@carlosrosado6130]

*Glances at Juubito*

[@teriosshadow17]

@@periodicpete Now that is tough question. Usually i find Mary Sue protagonists more annoying due to loss of tension and comflicts when every character worships them. Now overpowered villain does not always mean stu as long as the antagonist is set up well and fully established with his powers and skills in its universe like Thanos for example. That being said there is rare occassion where can come off more of a frustration and anger than legitimite threat once they start bending the rules of narrative or pull off some stupid deus ex machinas out of their ass to ensure their victory somehow. Fights against this antagonist becomes really boring to watch where heroes lose every single time.

[@periodicpete]

@@teriosshadow17 I suppose I can see that. I have somewhat of a contention with the idea that an antagonist winning all the time would be annoying, when clearly there seems to be an element of how it's executed at play. Thanos, as you said, is a great example, considering that he never actually loses any of the fights he's in, and really only suffers any losses on rare but short lived occasions. But whatever makes that competence "annoying" is what lies at the heart of the issue, rather than the competence itself. Whatever that is, I don't think either of us are sure of yet. Though, I do think there's something to be said about antagonists that purposely undermine another character's journey by not dying. Like in situations when they should be defeated or stay defeated by virtue of the arc of another character involved in the conflict, and by not doing just that they undermine it entirely. I think the only contention I have with this is that it's focused on an isolated event(s) of the story. Unless there're a lot of recurring fights with them that should end in them losing that pop up constantly, I'm not sure if this would be recurring enough for it to make the character a Mary Sue. This is something I've gone back and forth on, mostly because it seems hard to draw the distinction between unwarranted victories and regular antagonism. And even when we do differentiate them, the question then becomes if this is just a one time problem that happens to correlate to a Mary Sue Moment, or if it's a persistent problem that would indicate the Mary Sue trope is at work. After all, I think there is a difference between a character that can have a moment or two related to the trope, and the trope completely applying to them. It is interesting to think about. There's certainly a lot about the trope that's left in the air and still needs defining. And I enjoy these kinds of conversations that explore the topic.

[@satoshiryusei3995]

I just like to point out Villain ≠ Antagonist. I agree with what PeriodicPete said, mary sues can NOT be antagonists. The thing about Villain Sues is that the villains aren't the antagonists, but rather the protagonists/MCs. A few villain MC examples (but not sues) are Invader Zim, Megamind, Brightburn, etc. In other words, ONE of the many requirements for villains to be considered Villain Sues is if said villains/evil characters are considered MCs/protagonists in the story. So, yes, certain OP villains like Aizen Sosuke, Madara Uchiha, Thanos, etc. COULD be considered Villain Sue IF they're the protagonists. But they're not, so they can't. And also, being OP ≠ Mary Sue either, there's way more to it to being Mary Sue than just OP.

[@cutiepie120048]

Woah, this puts things into a better perspective!!! 👏👏👏

[@TheMightyMojavi]

While I’m sure there’s a great essay here mechanically, it’s pretty disjunct with all the examples you give and bouncing around from topic to topic and character to character. It’s not terrible, though, it just could use some work, like focusing on a singular definition or common characteristics of Mary Sue characters found around all types of media and then focus on specific examples. It seemed like you wanted to talk about Rey being one more than anything, but that focus becomes muddled through the rest of the video. It’s definitely one of the better ones I’ve just so happened to have in my feed, though. Good work.

[@periodicpete]

Take note, other viewers. This is how I can improve my videos. With well-thought-out criticism. But seriously, thank you for letting me know. I'll admit, a lot of my video always felt rushed because I wanted to put something out for my channel's anniversary. Although, the original intention was to focus on how the mary sue is a lot more complex than most people think. There are overpowered characters that aren't mary sues, characters that are never wrong that aren't sues, characters that are loved by everyone that aren't sues, self inserts that aren't sues, and even flawless characters that aren't sues, because a Mary sue, while possessing many of these traits, is still something more. And to explain that, I had to address each segment of the mary sue individually. Focussing my video on just one wouldn't cut it. But I absolutely agree it could've been written better. Definitely needed more redrafting. Maybe I'll make a follow up video that's handled better. I'm already doing something like that for another one of my videos (though I don't imagine either will be out soon). Thanks for the criticism : )

[@TheMightyMojavi]

@@periodicpete Which is understandable for the anniversary bit. I get that the concept gets misconstrued a lot by people who try to make it hyperbolized or those who scratch at anything that can male their beloved inserts not a Mary Sue. I agree, Mary Sue characters are not just overpowered, not just universally loved, not just omniscient, but in the way you presented it, it felt as if you wanted to cover every basis but at the same time. The examples definitely could use more extrapolation and pursuit in how they line up with what you say, but the points do have a very nice basis to segway into a more detailed discussion. I will say, though, that being a side character doesn't disqualify the character from being a Mary Sue. Like you said, though, it just depends on the context. It's possible to focus on each point by being concise but detailed and more organized, but I think that wasn't achieved because of the video's rushed nature. Full power to you, though, man. I have wanted to get my own thoughts into videos like this, but I don't have the time, money, or confidence to be able to write and edit like this. I'll actually look forward to the videos you put out in the future.

[@Scripture-Man]

As a Star Wars fan, I have no interest in the Disney films, though I did watch The Force Awakens once, to my dismay. I find it odd that anyone could consider Rey a "protagonist"! Rey is one of the most unpleasant, unlikeable, contemptible characters I've ever seen on screen, clearly intended as a villain. Claims that she is a "Mary Sue" make no sense to me. As for this video, a bit of feedback... Overall this was well put-together and very insightful. Though I did find the video confusing at times. Sometimes the visuals perfectly illustrated what was being said at that moment, but this made it confusing when they didn't. One example was when Wesley Crusher appeared. At first it seemed like you were talking about him, but then I guess you weren't (?) So I felt like there needed to be a stronger connection between script and visuals, so everyone is on the same page. Also, the sudden appearance of large chunks of text on screen add additional confusion, when the video itself is confusing enough. Plus my unfamiliarity with (possibly obscure) Japanese manga added even more confusion. I like to know what it is I'm looking at. Perhaps when writing future scripts, you could be more mindful of what you're planning to show on screen, and link the script more tightly with that? Also, perhaps there could be a little more breathing room or punctuation between topics/items. Especially with all the other titles flashing up, the distinction between key points didn't always feel strong enough IMHO. Thanks! :-)

[@KaosNova2]

I think the point where the trope is allowed to slide the most is comedy, where the character is intended to mock something.

[@thebowinarrow8398]

I love how I was watching a Star Wars video and I saw a comment saying “Mary sue” so I searched it up and first thing that pop up is starwars

[@Mykahaia]

It's not only power....Mary Sues do not fail, they're always right they're always moral...Saitama fails...it's still a character trope....

[@soundoftheforest3443]

Literally marinette 😩

[@bannerlee9590]

This really makes me think about Danganronpa’s Kaede Akamatsu. (SPOILERS) I’m confident that she has Mary Sue potential and would’ve been a Mary Sue if she survived past the first trial. Her backstory was basically how great she was at her talent, her interactions with the characters were either made Kaede look like the one in the right or involves her easily making friends, and everyone practically flocks to her. Everything was fixed when Shuichi became the 2nd Protag after Kaede died. So it frustrates me when Fans say that Shuichi should’ve died instead of their perfect goddess when if that were the case, she’d most likely be the most hated DR protag.

[@dangerdash4393]

It sounds like she's just a very charismatic person. People with a lot of charisma can get a lot of support. It's one of the reason why Hitler was a major figure in Germany before everything went to shit.

[@bannerlee9590]

@@dangerdash4393 I mean her whole character is that on the outside she’s very optimistic and confident that they would all escape together but behind close doors she’s a tear filled mess. Which sounds good in concept until you see it and it feels like an afterthought. I always say that the best way to Fix Kaede if she were to survive past the first trial was to make her do things the players will end up not liking her for (like say attempt to kill someone and betray the group but fail) while Shuichi (assuming he lives) acts as a foil to Kaede: Specifically while Kaede is viewed as a saint by the group but secretly plots to murder someone after Ch1, Shuichi is seen as the most suspect person out of all of his group yet secretly plots a way for everyone to escape.

[@charity6372]

Very very well done. I have researched this TO DEATH and this is to me hands down the best explanation of the "mary sue" I have heard. It's so clear. It's not necessarily the character themselves but the side characters actions and how they are sidelined that is so frustrating (as a female especially) to watch. I am a huge Star Wars fan and I just don't care about Rey. Now I think I know why. Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is my favorite character from the sequel trilogy and of course Luke Skywalker from the original. I have no real favorite from the prequels as I have blocked them from my memory 🤪 Thank you!!

[@periodicpete]

Hey thanks, it means a lot. Check out my follow up to this video, where I cover some responses to this one and correct a few things I felt could've been said better.

[@charity6372]

@@periodicpete You got it. My curiosity is peaked....😉👍

[@ReySkywalker2]

Rey is not a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is someone who never fails and always succeeds with NO effort, struggle or work. They never struggle to succeed and never experience physical or emotional pain. They have no flaws (internal and external) and therefore never change. First I will define what a ‘failure’ actually is. Simply: A failure is when an attempt at fulfilling a goal and succeed is not achieved. Failure does not require permanent, eternal consequences to be a ‘failure’. There are two types of failures; Internal and External. ⁃ Internal failures are when the failure has a negative internal, emotional, psychological, spiritual and/or mental effect. ⁃ External failures are when the failure has a negative external, physical, social and/or physiological effect. (If you’re aiming for an A in an exam and you only achieve a C, that’s a failure because you were attempting to achieve a goal that you did not. However, you still passed with a C, so there are no permanent, external consequences to this failure) Now here is a list of all the significant FAILURES of Rey. • Rey fails to see through Finn’s lie, unlike Han. This makes Rey look extremely naive and childish. When she is told, she is extremely shocked by this. • Rey is captured by Kylo Ren with ease. After running into the Takodana Forest, Rey is found by Ren is frozen in place. She is completely defenceless and is taken by Ren without putting up any sort of fight, other than her feeble attempts at shooting him. • Rey fails to bring Luke to the fight. Many people would say this isn’t a failure for Rey, because it was Luke’s choice to not join the fight however Rey still had a goal that she did not succeed at fulfilling. • Rey fails to resist the Darkside when she meditates with Luke, causing Luke to be even more reluctant and scared to train Rey. • Rey fails to resist the Darkside cave, causing her great distress and pain. • Rey is easily manipulated by Kylo Ren, causing her to empathise and, eventually, is convinced to try and save him. • Rey turns against Luke, hitting him in the back of the head and ignoring his plea for her not to go. • Rey fails to turn Ben Solo to the lightside, instead pushing him further into the Darkside. • Rey fails to stand a chance against Snoke and gets thrown around with the Force and mind raped, causing her great physical and mental pain and suffering. • Rey fails to pull her lightsaber, from Kylo, to her, causing it to split it two instead. • Rey fails to connect to the cosmic force and the Jedi Of The Past when she’s training with Leia. • Rey gives into the Darkside when training against the training remote and gives into her anger, triggering a vision that causes her great distress and confusion. • Rey allows Ren to snatch her necklace from her, allowing the First Order to find them. • Rey gives into her darkness and anger when trying to pull the transport, causing her to conjure force lightning, destroying the transport she was trying to save. • Rey believed she had killed Chewie, causing her great pain and suffering. • Rey failed to retrieve the Wayfinder and allowed Ren to destroy it. • Rey gave into the Darkside when confronted with Ren on the Death Star Wreckage, striking at a defenceless and unarmed man. • Rey was defeated by Ren in their duel on the Death Star Wreckage. • Rey gave into the Darkside when Ren dropped his lightsaber, catching it and stabbing an unarmed, grieving man with his own weapon. • Rey exiles herself, out of fear and despair, to Ahch-To. • Rey is manipulated by Palpatine and, out of an unhealthy flaw/lack of self value agreed to the ritual, to become the Sith Empress, as she believes becoming the Sith Empress will give her the self value she lacks. Rey does have flaws. She fails due to these flaws and, when she does succeed, struggles to succeed. She has internal struggles with her own self love, or lack there of, which causes her great, constant chronic emotional, internal pain. Due to her abandonment, Rey has no internalised self worth. She hates herself but she doesn’t know why. She has a constant, chronic pain within her, a hole in her heart, because she doesn’t love herself. Because of this lack of self love and value, Rey believes the only way to be of value is to be valued by other people. She believes that she is only worth something if other people think she is. Rey is always doing things to please others, to gain people’s love, respect, admiration and appreciation in an effort to gain the worth and value that she lacks from herself. This is the lie Rey believes. Rey believes that her worth comes from others and comes from giving to others. Whilst giving to others is good, it should not be the source of your self worth. You shouldn’t have to be of worth to others, to be of worth to yourself. The truth is that Rey’s worth and value (as everyone’s value is) has to come from within. Rey cannot be given value by others. Rey has to give value, worth and love to herself, to truly be happy, balanced and whole. Rey learned this truth when Palpatine tells her that she is to strike him down and “pledge herself as a Sith.” Palpatine tells her that the only way that she can find self value is by becoming the Sith Empress. Rey agreed to this lie but when Ben Solo returns to her, the truth literally looks her dead in the eyes. Ben came back for her. This showed Rey the truth. The truth that Rey is valuable and loved, just as she is. This allows Rey to refuse the Sith ritual. She also has this truth further confirmed to her by the Jedi and/or the cosmic force itself when she calls “Be with me.”. She is told that she isn’t alone, that she is strong, brave, worthy and deserves to be. This gives Rey the strength to rise. Not only were the Jedi giving Rey physical strength and power but they were giving her spiritual, emotional and mental strength. They convinced her to refuse the lie that she had believed all her life, that she was nothing and had to be given value from others, and to accept the truth, that Rey is a good person. Rey fails all the time, she trains in TLJ for 2 weeks with Luke and the Jedi Texts and she trains for almost 2 years in between TLJ and TRoS. Rey struggles and has flaws. She isn’t a Mary Sue. She simply is not. She has a very interesting, deep and complex arc that is as dynamic as it can be. She has literally no self worth, to the point where she is constantly selfless (too much so) causing her more harm than good. She also always seeks validation, approval and appreciation from others to accept and give herself value, which she must, and does, learn to overcome through the trilogy. She fails all the time. She loses to Luke (she does), she loses to Snoke and is thrown around like a rag doll and then has her mind raped as she screams in agony, she is at the mercy of Kylo Ren in TLJ and is saved by him (Mary Shes don’t need saving), she loses to Kylo Ren in TRoS and is disarmed and on the floor defenceless. Characters don’t automatically like her, either, which is another invalid criticism of Rey. Luke didn’t like her. Poe doesn’t like her. Han didn’t automatically like her until she proved herself to him. She’s not good at everything and what she is good at has reasons. He primary character flaw, that drives her character arc is the Rey is self hating. She is a scavenger by choice. Nobody who has any self worth becomes a slave by choice buddy. She constantly looks for appreciation and approval in people, even at her own expense. JJ abrams said this directly when talking about Rey. She looks for it in Han, in Luke, in Leia, in Ben Solo and finally learns to get it from herself and the Jedi. She’s also has to learn from mentors and her failures. She ignored Luke and went to save Ben Solo and kill Snoke and end the war. She was wrong. She got mind raped, beaten up, had her lightsaber torn in two and pushed Kylo Ren further into the Darkside. She also tried to exile herself on Ahch To. She also has motivations, which Mary Sue’s don’t have. She wants belonging, she wants to love herself and stop feeling constant self-loathing, she wants to learn how to stop being overly selfless, at her own expense, she wants understanding of herself and the force and she believes in the fight and war. Rey weaknesses that give her the motivation to solve them and which cause her to fail, which forces her to learn and grow through her character arc. Rey has explanations for her abilities and power levels, that do not break the lore or “bend the universe” to make her “perfect”. She isn’t.

[@orionaugustwatson]

People can believe a kid saving the day but not a street smart grown person being able to defend themselves. If Rey is Mary Sue, then everyone in SW is, James Bond, Ethan Hunt, entire Fast and furious cast, Dragonball Z, Indiana Jones, etc is

[@emilyvillamil]

If you put it that way, my original character is way more Mary Sue compared to her lmao.

[@BishopWalters12]

Rey is borderline Mary Sue especially in TFA but the biggest problem is that the character is just boring.

[@BishopWalters12]

@@orionaugustwatson You're doing an Apples to Oranges comparison. Anakin and Luke were more powerful compared to Rey but they had a longer road of learning and taking more defeat. Those other franchises are very different and not Mary Sues or Gary Stu or whatever you want to call it.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@BishopWalters12 Nah she’s really interesting with her real human psychology and trauma, with her core belief of self-worthlessness and her arc about accepting that she is worthy of personal greatness

[@nosfonader8792]

What would have taken away Rey's Mary Sue label? Her being a clone of a dark sider. Like Darth Rey from Rise of Skywalker. By having Rey be a clone you're doing 3 things: give Rey a internal conflict (dealing with being a clone) , a external conflict (confronting her Darth Rey template), and a goal to overcome it (dealing with can Rey be good or evil by choice, not design). Darth Rey got her status and power because she was trained by Snoke, therefore her clone was equally be as strong. Problem solved. As for villains being Sues: Joker from DC is considered this by many a fan. Joker is just a non powered person that does incredibly bullshit things, like Jokerizing the Justice League from time to time. Even Darkseid isn't labeled a Villain Sue when Joker is labeled one. That's how I would have done Rey: make her a clone and have the real Rey be a Darksider trained and raised by Snoke.

[@Deuteromis]

2023, and people still are calling Luke a Mary Sue and Anakin...

[@Beeezledrop]

Lol the idea that anyone would call Tony Stark a Mary Sue is hilarious.

[@scooterdemo]

Do you have the episode of the dishonored wolf podcast where the bilbo meme originated

[@periodicpete]

If it wasn't EFAP 21, try The Dishonored Wolf Podcast episode 13 or 15 (both of which should already be reuplaoded to KZbin). I know it was one where they covered a Downward Thrust video, but I'm not certain so start your search there.

[@scooterdemo]

Yeah I've watched the efap where they covered the same video, and I've watched all of the reuploads of the dishonored wolf Podcast episodes but unless I just wasn't paying attention none of the ones on there seemed to have it

[@periodicpete]

Interesting. I don't think I know which stream that is then... I'll get back to you if I find it.

[@scooterdemo]

@@periodicpete I sent a super chat asking the efap gang about it in the latest episode. Mauler said that episode was deleted pretty soon after it was uploaded so it's very unlikely anyone has it. The OG bilbo meme lives on only in our memory unfortunatley😭

[@Ziyoblader]

Well saitama not being a Mary Sue is true the show opens a whole new problem altogether and that is demoralizing the power of the bad guys as most of these bad guys are build up only to be squashed which throws away all the feeling you would get from other shows kind of like a poison that ruins it for the rest I still have not been able to watch the series entirely because I would like to hold on to that fear of a standard bad guy or villain that deserves a good fight for its buildup

[@DigiThorn]

More people need to see this

[@periodicpete]

Feel free to share it with more people ; )

[@TheHulkbuster13]

main characters are Mary/Gary in some sense. Rey's Problem is bad writing. Reason why some Gary might not get called out is because most are in a story that are we are learning about, belief of what we can expect is the most open. With originals & prequels, fans have a firm grasp of how the story goes and if Anakin, the Chosen ONE had training, it kinda implies everyone needs training and can't just pull powers out of their ass.

[@zionleach3001]

Is there a *special* place in Hell for the person who created the Mary sue? I mean if the MC succeeds at something, even though they still struggled some one who doesn't understand what it means says thier a Mary sue . But nobody wants to read where the MC struggles with *EVERYTHING.* 🙄

[@nicosilver5439]

“I’m Mary poppins y’all” -Yondu

[@stellaroutline]

wow you got it spot on O.O !applouze!

[@jarektempleton2104]

Ur describing the flat character arc, right? At least, I think that can play a big role in some characters close to being a Mary Sue, but not being one. Take Mary Poppins: the premise revolves around who and what she affects- like ur Mary Sue side character point, she and them are called impact characters, and a character with a flat character arc is essentially the impact character made into the protagonist.

[@TotalRookie_LV]

Sheppard from "Mass Effect" definitely is not a "Mary Sue", as there is a backstory leading to supposed perfection, besides don't forget about the option to pick renegade choices - hardly a perfect, flawless character.

[@MrDnelson2112]

Not bad video man. Definitely Superman and Batman are not Mary Sues or Gary Stu’s Superman has deal with the burden of his powers. That he could save anyone, yet he’s only one person. Who’s lost his home planet Krypton. Batman a character who was never same his parents pass away in crime alley. I was trying to make sure no one else suffers like he did. Yeah even in his struggle against crime he gets hurt loses people. Well Rey on the other hand who does lose anything and gets leftovers on a platter. She earns nothing. I think only criticism have the video is some of the editing good been done better. When you refer to Male Sue you call it Gary Stu. You can hit me up on EFAP discord anytime as well.

[@periodicpete]

I mostly call them all Mary Sue's as a sort of "response" to the notion that the term is sexist because it's only used against women. The people who say that don't know about the terms Gary or Lary Stus, since the male counterparts tend to be less common today. So I use Mary Sue universally to break that misconception. Also, criticism helps me improve for future videos. If you have any specific examples in mind of editing and how they could've been done better, I encourage you to list them. It helps me more than you know.

[@MrDnelson2112]

PeriodicPete sorry for the late reply. There were some times the what you were saying wasn’t matching up on screen. I had to rewind a the video a few times. One scene was the Batman animated series it had font. Also thought One Punch man could maybe be trimmed down a just a bit. Other I still think it’s good

[@56jklove]

no batman and superman are sueish losing parents motivates him but he takes down everybody. and superman not saving everyone doesnt really bother him

[@michaeldorsey9231]

Which versions of Batman and Superman are you talking about? Some can be Sues, but there are plenty who aren’t. Dark Knight trilogy Batman is hardly a Sue; he has training and experience to justify his skill, and he’s still been defeated or outsmarted several times.

[@eruptelliot3535]

Thanks!

[@supercoollink1228]

How starwars ep 7 should have ended, rey dies

[@thetrib1]

luke should've died too after ep 4. but like rey he had plot armor

[@lacroixproductions3501]

I don’t even really have a problem with Rey being overpowered, it’s just more that’s she’s so emotionless and stoic all the time, she’s not relatable in any way, she’s not even a real person. She’s just really unlikable.

[@camselle]

Ruth Langmore from OZARK

[@emmaj5807]

Thank you!!!

[@periodicpete]

You're Welcome!!!!!!

[@lukescastle]

I have a question. I made this character a while ago (a year ago is when I first started writing) and since then, a lot has changed. I told my friend about this character, and they said he was a Mary sue. But by the definition of this video, I wouldn't say so. What do you think? Context: my character has very strong powers, such as teleportation, can go through objects, shadow magic, etc. Sometimes, every few months or so, he randomly teleports to a different universe as part of a curse that he has to break. Everywhere he goes, he's hated and attacked by people who either want the power or want to exterminate it.

[@periodicpete]

It all depends. It's relative to everything that happens in your character's story. You can have your character be extremely powerful in some areas but still give them a struggle of some kind to focus on in others. If that struggle isn't the focus of your story, they could be a sue. I don't think there's a way to tell just with the character alone.

[@lukescastle]

@@periodicpete the main focus of the story is about how he's alone. He can never make friends, because he always changes universes randomly. A lot of people hate him for his power.

[@periodicpete]

@@lukescastle There's not really enough to tell just from a short summary. If the story is focused on him finding friends, meeting new people, and trying to find a way to reverse this curse and has to struggle to find it despite the powers he has, I don't think he's a sue. If conflict stems independently of those, then he might be a sue after all. Try not to take this the wrong way, but I don't think you're going to find anything valuable looking for validation from a KZbinr talking on the subject. Least of all someone with less than a thousand subs. I'd recommend challenging your understanding of your character to really find out if he's a sue or not. Look for ways that he's favored, even just a little bit. Use that as a jumping off point to give them flaws to balance them out. If you talk to your friend again, ask them in what way they break the story or the world they're in, or how can't they exist in a way that isn't favored. Just exercise your understanding of both the character and the trope as much as you can. In my followup video, I gave two criteria that define a sue: -They are greatly favored by the plot -And that favoritism directly breaks the story in some way. If you say it doesn't fit both those criteria, I'll take your word for it. But I can't really comment more than that.

[@lukescastle]

@@periodicpete the story is mostly based around him trying to figure out ways to survive in the scenarios he's put in, and figuring out why he's cursed. He's often met with overpowering and hatred from most people. He's nor able to make friends because he can't show his face socially without being attacked or arrested or whatever. He often has to hide and becomes very depressed because of his situation and how he has never nor ever could have a normal life.

[@jimothyworldbuilding3664]

Hm. This is factual.

[@jaonatohinirina565]

There is two main view on the term mary sue -one is a very talented prodigy that can do no wrong in their field, this stance is devoid of negative connotation and taken mostly by those who deny the rise of "mary sue" character in this "sjw era" -the second is a reality warper that bend the established world and character around them, to make them look good even though they are undeserving, while noone but the reader is aware of it, not even the narration. It's the one that frustrate the audience and (in my opinion) is the true definition of a mary sue.

[@periodicpete]

I agree Second one is basically the definition I use: A character who is favored by a plot in a way which that favoritism breaks said plot in some way.

[@Mykahaia]

Althiugh Saitama isn't a Mary Sue I think Garou oddly enough is...

[@nosfonader8792]

This sounds exactly like Dante from Devil May Cry and, on occasion, Link from Zelda. But they are labeled gaming icons. Even if Rey was a student of Luke’s, she would still be labeled a Mary Sue out of spite. I’ve even heard WONDER WOMAN be called a Mary Sue! But guys like Captain America and Aragorn aren’t Gary Stus? Also notice how it’s women that are labeled and men are questioned on it. I highly doubt Rey would be hated if she was Roy. I did mention Captain America and Dante intentionally. And piss off with that “potential Sue!” bs. I notice you mentioned the men with this. Women are branded because they are usually a sidekick or prize for the guy. You either are or aren’t a Sue/Stu. I label a Sue/Stu as someone who has all the power, the skill, but none of the explanation. They need to have one (regardless of how bad it is) to show they aren’t. Brovo for using someone not named Ripley or Sarah Connor as a not-Sue.

[@Ncholasbloom]

ive heard goku be called a gary stu as well he's kinda simillar to rey having no memory of the past find out he's from an evil yet mighty blood heritage accepts his heritage but goes by the name his grandfather gohan gave him

[@nosfonader8792]

@@Ncholasbloom I label him one too. He even has a technique unique to himself. He can copy other fighters’ attacks! He doesn’t need to train, he can just do that and use his Sayain biology to get stronger.

[@Ncholasbloom]

@@nosfonader8792 speaking of training i remember lots of fans wanting to see her train tlj but her moves are simillar to the staff we see that when luke watches her i bring this up cuz there's one guy i know that got very pissed about not seeing her train that much

[@nosfonader8792]

@@Ncholasbloom She reminding me or Korra: excels in the physical but sucks at the spiritual, which is what the Jedi mainly are. Rey didn’t succeed in anything she set out to do in Last Jedi really.

[@Ncholasbloom]

@@nosfonader8792 yeah untill episode 9 when she healed ben

[@smiththeinspiringanimator7042]

Yeah.

[@neomatrix4412]

star trek discovery Captain Burnham

[@TammyDenseDdank5658]

She is strong wuman.

[@TeWhero]

So is Shuri in Wakanda forever a Mary sue?

[@thetrib1]

basically yeah. any woman who isn't liked universally as a main lead will be considered a mary sue.

[@robertmorgan4888]

and the 'strong female character'

[@ReySkywalker2]

Rey is super interesting. The main criticism about The Last Jedi is how it DOESN’T spend enough time with Rey, Luke and Kylo’s stories. We have the Canto Bight, Finn, Rose, Poe and Holdo stories too.

[@AnopKumarDas]

You are missing copycat ! A OP character who took others achievements and power in a disrespectful manner . Second belittling every other side characters as dumb and powerless .

[@t3jf]

The Sequel trilogy were some of the worst movies ever created

[@GeometryDashDigital]

Side characters can be Mary Sues but ok pop off

[@ElderBard00]

One puuuuuuuuuuuuuunch!!!!!!! 🥰🥰🥰

[@ReySkywalker2]

Mary Sues do not fail, they never struggle at all (not only do they always succeed but they succeed with EASE), they do not have flaws and they are always perfect. Rey fails and has flaws. Rey struggles all the time. She struggles to pilot the Falcon, in her fight with Kylo, when mind-tricking the stormtrooper, when training with Luke, when resisting the Darkside cave, when confronting snoke (again, she is helpless), when fighting the Praetorian Guards, when pulling her Saber, when lifting the rocks (it takes her 2 minutes and clear effort to lift those rocks.), when training with Leia and training against the training remote droid, when she’s sinking in the sinking fields on Pasaana, when she tries to save Chewie (and fails), when she gives into the Darkside when trying to save chewie, when she’s confronted by Kylo Ren through the force bond on and over Kijimi, when she is climbing the wreckage of the Death Star II, when she fights her darkside self, when she fights Kylo Ren in the DSII (and fails miserably), when she gives into the Darkside and stabs a defenceless, unarmed and grieving Ben Solo, when she Exiles herself, when she confronts Palpatine and almost gives into the Sith Ritual (so she can both find some worth, that she lacks within, and because she has a weakness for the Darkside, whilst also wanting to selflessly (too selflessly) Saber her friends and family), when she has her life force drained from her, when she fights Palpatine and absorbs and then shoots his force lightning back at him, causing her to die. I’ll go into more detail on how Rey fails/struggles and how these failures/struggles are genuine failures/struggles that make Rey not a Mary Sue. Struggles First I will define and explain what ‘Struggling’ is. Struggling / A struggle is when a character has to put in and shows significant effort to achieve their goals. Here’s a list of all the STRUGGLES Rey goes through. • When flying the Falcon Rey has a hard time taking off and flying in the first place. “A bit hard without a co-pilot!” • Rey struggles to use the mindtrick, needing to try three times to succeed. • Rey struggles in her fight with Kylo Ren on Star-Killer Base. No, they forgot because of nostalgia. The prequels are still just as bad as they have been but kids, like yourself, can’t see past their rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo and Luke all have full and developed arcs and character development. Rey has a huge amount of character development. Just look at the Saber to see it, even if you won’t be able to understand it. The first time she sees the Skywalker Saber, she runs away from it. She then spends the whole trilogy trying to give it to someone else, thinking she isn’t worthy. In the climax of TRoS, she finally accepts her own self concept and beloved she is worthy, pulling the Saber to her. Or what about what she calls and thinks of herself. In TFA: Rey-“I’m no one”. In TLJ: Kylo: “You’re nothing” Rey doesn’t even deny it. Rey believe she is a woethelsss scavenger her whole life. In the end of TRoS, however, Rey is told, by Palpatine, “You are NOTHING! A scavenger girl is no match for the power in me! I am all the Sith. To which she finally replied “And I am all the Jedi.” That, kid, is character development. Stop being a blind sheep, just absorbing click bait youtubers uneducated opinion and use your own brain and you may be able to see the Sequels for what they are.

[@orionaugustwatson]

Great job!! Couldn't have said it any better

[@cjpatz]

What are some examples of Mary Sues? Just heard this term literally now, and trying to figure out what it is and have been watching a lot of videos on it and still confused.

[@thorthewolf8801]

The struggles you mention are barely superficial ones. Struggles to do the mind trick? She shouldnt even be able to do it, she shouldnt even know that its a thing she can do. A day before she thought Luke was a myth, how would she know that a mind trick is even possible in the first place? Struggles to fly? Yeah, she bumps into some things and then she pilots it perfectly. There are no consequences for her struggling, and a moment later she outmaneuvres trained pilots? Even going as far as lining up a shot for Finn?

[@My_trashtalking_account]

I wouldn't call Rey a bad character per se. But only because I can't even classify her as a character. She's more like a prop.

[@ReySkywalker2]

It’s not a logical fallacy to point out the hypocrisy of thinking Rey is a Mary Sue, whilst Luke isn’t.

[@the.axolotlgirl]

Mary sue isn’t always bad like say Batman? He is rich , super smart, and literally is able to take down GODS??? When he is just a human Also Superman might count

[@nosfonader8792]

Mary Sue: a woman who does stuff --people these days If Rey was Roy nobody would be complaining how great he is. Just look at Captain America. If Steve Rodgers was Stephanie she'd be labeled a Mary Sue without hesitation. I notice you're only showing women in this video. This is why it's considered sexist. Nobody truly cares about Wesley Crusher as a Sue. They just use him to try to say Mary Sue isn't sexist. Labeling a dozen women but one guy doesn't balance this out. People need to bring back damsel in destress. That could fix the problem of a Mary Sue. You can't be a Sue if you constantly get captured, after all. Who wants to be that if Harry Potter was Harriet Potter, how fast would she be labeled a Mary Sue? JK Rowling was smart when she didn't have a female lead. If Hunger Games is anything to go by. Katniss is often labeled a Mary Sue. I so fear the day when they make a Metroid movie. Samus Aran is gonna be hated on so bad.

[@庫倫亞利克]

The moment Rey suddenly gains the power to Jedi Mind Trick the Stormtrooper out of nowhere, I know that Disney intends to make her an all-powerful and tasteless wamen. God, never has there been such a moment when I feel hopeless instead of joyful when my prediction comes true.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Another thing, sorry for the spam but you’re so wrong, is that Rey defeating Kylo in one fight (where he is injured) doesn’t take away the tension from the story. Kylo is shown to not be the big bad. Snoke is and, if you watch TLJ, Rey is NO MATCH for Snoke.

[@orionaugustwatson]

Exactly!

[@ragejinraver]

Stop it she's the epitome of a Mary Sue why do you think that movie tanked . The whole I'm gonna look at it in a critical counter way doesn't work its a fact

[@orionaugustwatson]

@@ragejinraver Similarly you stating something as fact doesn't make it one. If she's Mary sue, James Bond, Indy Jones, Goku, Saitama, etc all are Mega, Giga.. Marty sues

[@orionaugustwatson]

@@ragejinraver kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmq7aYeQYqaLp80

[@orionaugustwatson]

@@ragejinraver kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJ_baZZnpp1rfqs

[@ReySkywalker2]

Just finished the video and, unfortunately, you have actually not provided a single argument for why Rey is a Mary Sue. It’s a lot of talking, without saying anything.

[@dangerdash4393]

For someone who makes so many comments on one video, you really don't say anything to actually prove your point.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Danger Dash I’ve proven my point multiple times, pal. You stalk me and it’s honestly really strange because, as far as I know, you can’t search for users comments on YT, which means your going through comments looking for me 😭. Also, I argue with you and it always ends with you running away. Don’t waste my time again.

[@dangerdash4393]

@@ReySkywalker2 No, you really didn't. You offer nothing that's actually factual within the films to disprove the claims. I'm not stalking ya, I just happened to see your half a dozen or so comments on this one video. You just happen to be more active than most. I've seen you on several other videos and didn't bother because you say nothing new I already haven't disproved. I don't run away, you stop responding. I'm still waiting for your response on that other video we were arguing on. Or did youtube fail to notify me again?

[@ReySkywalker2]

Danger Dash Yes I do. I offer clear facts and points that counter this joke of a video. You’re clearly stalking me - near obsessed with me. You go scouring YT for my comments lmfao. And no, you haven’t seen me on any other videos and not bothered to comment. You haven’t disproved a single (and I mean - like - not one) point of mine. You do run away. You’re the one who stops responding lol. How can you lie without any shame? Waiting for a response 🤣 Pal, in every single comment thread, I have always got the last comment. You’re either in denial or a bad liar.

[@dangerdash4393]

@@ReySkywalker2 Nothing you offer has any factual backing in the film. I'm not stalking you, you're just active enough to be noticed a lot. Just because you're comments are common, doesn't mean you're the one I'm looking for. Use some common sense. As for the rest: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHi5qKygf5xgg68 Yeah, clearly I'm the one that stopped responding. Clearly I'm the one that ran out of points and gave up. *And in case it wasn't clear, that's me being sarcastic.*

[@adrianmallison9545]

Captain America is not a Mary Sue (and Superman and Batman aren't either) because they have enemys as strong as them

[@periodicpete]

I agree

[@ReySkywalker2]

Oh yeah, Harry Potter - the boy who survived the most powerful dark wizard of all time and is instinctively skilled with magic without any teaching. If Harry Potter was a girl, you know people like you would think they’re a Mary Sue.

[@nosfonader8792]

Don’t forget he keeps getting plot breaking things like the Firebolt and a freaking Deathly Hallow as Christmas presents. He’s an underwhelming student that does overwhelming things. Masters spells that’s labeled hard for adults but mastered them in a month or so.

[@Tengokuchi]

He was saved by his mother and he has a huge cast of characters he not only gets into conflict with, but also receives heaps of aid from. Just about the only thing he's a natural at is Quidditch and he's not the best at that either. It's really funny watching you flail to protect your Queen.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@Tengokuchi Actually, everything you’ve said is objectively false. Rey isn’t a Mary Sue. It’s a proven fact. Keep crying.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@Tengokuchi Also, no, Harry was a natural at magic, quidditch, potions, duelling, etc. He is also always morally correct and is wanted and liked by everyone.

[@BishopWalters12]

Incorrect and Potter never changed the rules in its 7th movie, Star Wars had a set of rules started by Lucas and Disney changed them. That doesn't bother some people which is fine but the rest of us don't like it.

[@ReySkywalker2]

It’s a real shame because this video clearly took some work and you cared about it, but you’re so wrong about Rey, specifically. She isn’t a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue, simply put, ever fails, never experiences any hardship, pain or suffering (internal or external) and is wholly perfect. This does not fit Rey, at all.

[@fwmiguel9439]

Explain how Rey beat Kylo Ren in a fight a without ever wielding a lightsaber

[@ReySkywalker2]

MrMigwelingson he was injured, bleeding out and conflicted in the Force. Moreover, Rey had melee fighting skills already and allowed the Force to guide her. It’s just as plausible, if not MORE, than Luke blowing up the Death Star and far more plausible than a 9 year old Anakin blowing up a droid control ship.

[@orionaugustwatson]

@@ReySkywalker2 precisely

[@庫倫亞利克]

Yawn. Whatever Disney simp.

[@orionaugustwatson]

@@ReySkywalker2 and also HE WAS NOT TRYING To KILL HER. He was attempting to recruit her, and just defending himself.

[@XX-sp3tt]

6:15 There's a reason the term 'Villain Sue' exists. Like Aizen from Bleach. And this is a problem because it can make their defeat feel artificial rather than a natural result of the character's own flaws and obsessions. Ainz from Overlord gained all of his power off screen. Sure it was in a video game, but we have to be TOLD about the way he carefully built up his character. And we get ONLY one brief flashback only to show he wasn't invincible when going up against other player character. Ainz intellectually is SHOWN by the writer to be intelligent, pragmatic, and logical. The problem is that he's so powerful that these traits aren't truly tested with his raw power. It makes you feel far more sympathetic to the pathetic NPCs and level 20 or 30 heroes going up against these level 99 abominations. It BURNS YOU OUT.

[@rojczan1399]

I mean... It's kinda the same thing ws One Punch Man example, these "Npcs" are more nice to watch because it IS MEANT TO, Ainz is both a protagonist and antagonist, and because he takes real actions so rarely it is entertaining to watch him even tho he's super OP which blends perfectly with the other side that also feels amazing to watch even if we know Ainz is going to win. Aizen example is also mid because, as Opm example, the story carries it, and to be more precise, the betrayal does the job well. But in terms of Aizen, i can actually understand your point a bit. But 100% honest i have no idea why nobody really answered this goofy comment lol.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Yeah, just don’t show all the times where Rey fails and gets defeated. Sure, only Rey is a Mary Sue when she beat an injured and bleeding out man but of course Luke isn’t a Mary Sue when he’s a better pilot than the Empire and literally blows up the Death Star............. Sexism.

[@dangerdash4393]

Failure is irrelevant when there's never a consequence for it, and you never learn from it. Ren's injury is a non factor as he was never shown to get weaker over time, and was even board fighting Finn. Luke had already been flying as a bush pilot, as Biggs pointed out. Any one of those pilots could've blown up the Death Star, and he was basically carried to the target. Where's the sexism here?

[@Ab3ndcgi]

The thing is, both Mary Sue, Trinity and Strong Woman are poorly written characters. But It is kinda ironic that the Mary Sue concept was developed as criticism of poorly written fanboy adaptations, designed to poke fun and point the flaws in escapistic male characters that plagued the Star Trek fandom. Mary Sue was created so wannabe writters would be able to see how ridículous their characters writting troopes where by proyecting them onto a woman who was not the usual template for and ubercool character that its ultimately a proyection of the writters fantasy. And yet, people seem utterly unable to take the hint, and not only are we still plagued with Gary Stu's franchises, like John Wick or Harry Potter; but we praise those characters as icons and only seem to be bothered by escapistic, proyective, clumsy written characters when they are female. So yeah, there is a double standart. Admitably fueled by the fact that most writters are male, and so when they create a proyective male character It is still somehow loosely conected to real human experience, which is not often the case with their female counterparts. Now George RR Martin knows how to create well rounded and developed characters. And I quote him on the secret of writting strong female leads that arent a walking cliché: just think that women are human.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Rey isn’t a Mary Sue, it’s a fact.

[@geertminderhoud2641]

maybe she isnt but she is the most dull overpowered character ever.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@geertminderhoud2641 Nah, she isn’t full or op

[@geertminderhoud2641]

@@ReySkywalker2 She is broken as F*ck. Learning stuff without trying where other powerfull people needed years or even decades to control. Beating a trained sith lord without any lightsaber training in a duel. She puts every single jedi in history to shame. And you dont call that OP? It would be fine if part 7-9 was just a stand alone trilogie but not as a sequal.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@geertminderhoud2641 She isn’t broken at all. She never learns anything that took others years or decades. There is ZERO evidence that, a mind trick for example, requires any training. We see literal babies able to use the Force. Rey NEVER beat a Sith Lord in a lightsaber duel. Kylo isn’t a Sith. Moreover, Kylo was injured and bleeding out. She literally fails against Kylo in TROS. Rey is a great character.

[@geertminderhoud2641]

@@ReySkywalker2 How dare I talk to a fanboy of the godly Rey. I am glad she has some fans.

[@axeblue]

Sounds like you defined womans right groups and Black lives matter perfectly.

[@demisor9701]

Has absolutely nothing to do with BLM. Lmao.

[@ReySkywalker2]

Rey isn’t a Mary Sue.

[@orionaugustwatson]

She's anything but a Mary Sue People can accept a 9 year old hitting the mother ship and thus saving the day. A farm boy doing something trained rebel soldiers failed to! But... a grown woman who's been raising herself as long as she can remember. She lives in ship wreckage, scavenges parts, dons an abandoned helmet, and have a rudimentary action figure of a rebel pilot. Basically the entirety of her life has been in and around waiting for her parents, ships, yet her flying a ship is unbelievable. They're willing to believe Luke had "some training and practice" Between episodes 4 and 5 , yet a person with no friends and just stories to entertain trying out something is ridiculous. And don't @me about ships and mechanics, I'm an aeronautical engineer who designs aircrafts and space ships for living. Most of all, daughter of Vader, sister of Luke and mother of Kylo pulling herself back to the ship to save her life is blasphemy! How dare getting better at force in the past 30 years. Rey was using the saber as a baseball bat in episode 7 when:- a) Kylo was injured and conflicted, b) WASN'T ACTUALLY TRYING To KILL HER Rey is not overpowered, she's capable, because she didn't had the choice not to. In fact if she didn't pick up any skills and was still alive, after being sold as a kid , that'd be unrealistic.

[@BishopWalters12]

She's in episode 7 and 8

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@BishopWalters12 No. She isn’t a Mary Sue ever.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@orionaugustwatson Facts

[@BishopWalters12]

@@ReySkywalker2 Incorrect for a 3rd time.