Why Do People Dislike Rey?

[@Nutsa]

EDIT: As to my spelling of "epitome" and the manner of speaking ....English is my third language therefore this is not really the biggest comfort zone for me...so please don't be an asshole and if my voice bothers you so much that you can't get through the video just feel free to click away and don't be a dick about it. Just putting it out there. ❤️ I want to address the elephant in the room *IF you are familiar to my channel* which is that I am in fact not a dude…so there’s that. ♥ Anyway...hope you guys enjoy.

[@Wedj_Youngman]

Also, great first video essay! Looking forward to see what you do next. 👍

[@DarkCyberElf]

Top Tier Feminist Editing Icon & Memel̶o̶r̶d̶lady "Nutsa"

[@Nutsa]

@@DarkCyberElf dude... 😂

[@jabslant1993]

Even tho you ain’t a dude people will still call you sexist for attacking their sacred cow… so have fun;>

[@Nutsa]

Firstly, I have no idea what my gender has anything to do with that.... Secondly, if someone attacks me for having an opinion (unless they write a long essay proving me wrong by actual and genuine arguments) I couldn't care less about what they think 😊

[@willaverynerdyclarinetist6131]

Disney: "There aren't any strong, independent female Characters in Star Wars!" Ahsoka Tano, Bastila Shan, Satele Shan, Leia Organa, Bo-Katan and Satine, Etain Tur-mukan, Padme Amidala, Kira Carsen, Ashara Zavros, Jaesa Willsaam, Mara Jade, Anakin's Mom, Atris, Meettra Surik, Kreia, Vette, Mission Vao, Juhani, Empress Acina, Vaylin, Senya, Bariss Offee, Lana Beniko, and many, many others: "Are we a joke to you?"

[@andrewsanz295]

Nomi Sunrider

[@patrickschardt7724]

In later arcs, Asajj Ventress

[@imperialdebauchery5988]

Jaina Solo, Shaak Ti, Darth Zannah

[@Sephiroth144]

Shmi Skywalker- "Sure, take my kid... guess I'll die now (so he'll have some motivation)" isn't how I'd define a "strong, independent female character" But the greater point stands- and even if you narrow it down to 'canon', we'd still have Leia (I mean, how the fuck did they miss her), Ahsoka, Bo-Katan, Hera, Jyn Erso and (disappointingly brief) Paige Tico, among others. (Plus a decent amount of female Jedi.)

[@ceasefire2825]

Nadia Grell, Gen. Garza, Elara dorne, Sgt. Jaxo

[@vincentramos879]

Let us not forget the greatest cinematic line this trilogy ever produced. “Somehow, palpatine returned.”

[@nagger8216]

I prefer "The dead speak!" personally

[@dragonslayer3552]

You can literally change the word Palpatine with 90% of movie villains/video game antagonists and its always going to be correct

[@counterfeit4450]

“The dark side of the force is a pathway to abilities many would consider, unnatural.” One of the best lines from the OT, and they somehow turned it into a nothing burger line in the sequels

[@nagger8216]

@@counterfeit4450 That's... not from the OT lmao

[@Raphael_Bizmann]

@@nagger8216 The original trilogies* That person forgot to make is plural.

[@jamesdosdall8391]

Ahsoka was 10 times the "strong female lead" than Rey ever was. Heck, MY LITTLE PONY has six stronger "female leads" than Rey. Someone at Disney needs to go ask someone at Hasbro how to write female characters.

[@shadowhawkrine1947]

Darn right! My little pony is straight up AWESOME

[@johannesseyfried7933]

​@@shadowhawkrine1947 And they honestly had better Villains than the Sequel Trilogy as well. Good Job, Disney. Getting outdone by colorful, talking Horses.

[@shadowhawkrine1947]

@@johannesseyfried7933 that takes SKILL to screw up a famous franchise so badly

[@yeyenyeyen6881]

@@johannesseyfried7933 you know the movies are bad, when colorfull unicorn movies about friendship have better character than action sci-fi movies

[@Battyj]

@@johannesseyfried7933 kylo ren isn't terrible, he has an interesting backstory and is actually flawed unlike Rey, the problem is that he lost to Rey in every single fight so no one feared him at all, and he came off as a bit too whiney sometimes, if everything else in the sequels was fine but he was the same character, he would be a solid character, however with Rey if everything else in the sequels was fine, she would still be a boring, bland character no one cares about

[@CrimzinEclipse2010]

It’s crazy how the fan base can love Ahsoka, Asajj Ventress, Kreia, Padme, Leia, etc., and Disney still has the GALL to say that Rey is disliked because she’s a woman.

[@Genomsnittet]

It is slightly true. If it was a male character, he would also be disliked. But not as disliked as Rey. I firmly believe this. People don't realize how many "male" Mary Sues are actually out there, because they don't react as strongly to it. Consider this for example. Who is still considered to be the best strong female character? Everyone, including myself, still fall back on Alien's Ripley. BRILLIANT CHARACTER. Now, that facker is from 1979. That we haven't topped that yet says something odd about the industry.

[@Bobcat161988]

@@Genomsnittet this may be random. But Mulan from the cartoon is my favorite woman character. Nothing is forced. No special powers. No crazy strength. Just a brave woman who uses real woman strengths (mental an physical) an kicks ass the whole movie. Nothing is forced.

[@nrishiee5231]

@@Bobcat161988 i would say mulan too for me. I was so pumped watching her in cinemas when i was younger. And im a guy! i can only imagine how much more special the experience would have been for young girls at the time.

[@skull1161]

@@Genomsnittet idk if I could list them and I haven't watched alien but every year there's new female characters that also happen to be strong. Off the top of my head I think of Ahsoka, Bo Katan, Satine, Padme. Toph, Katara, Korra, Azula, and Suki from Avatar. Pretty much every female character written in avatar is important to the story in their own way without the simple 'be strong' approach. My point is that they show up all the time. If you think not having a new best female character is bad then I don't get that. I have favorite male characters as well that have stayed my favorites for years.

[@SKIllITY20]

@@Genomsnittet you may be right but on the other hand one of the many complaints about anakin in the prequels is that he’s a Gary sue. I think the one thing that saved his character in the long run is his character flaws and him being “the chosen one”. At first I didn’t like the whole chosen one thing but it was saved for me once the idea of palpatine influencing the force to make shmee pregnant was introduced. Like he tried to make an insanely strong force user and left him for the Jedi to find. I think most fans of Star Wars still would’ve hated Rey even if she was a man but Disney lucasfilm constantly antagonizing fans about being sexist for not liking her definitely made fans more upset

[@logantotman]

I love how Mark Hamill knows the Star Wars universe and good characters. He sees right through Disney's bull crap. He's the best

[@berimar5675]

"He ...... is the chosen one" (its for Anakin i know but still)

[@Christian-be6eg]

Luke- "I see through the lies of Disney"

[@candykane8474]

The man deserves better

[@kekoasylva5544]

Don’t you know he likes the Last Jedi

[@frankvizen5480]

@@kekoasylva5544 yeah he really walked that shit back

[@billionsmustfight]

They wanted to make her everything, and they failed. Because no one can be, not even Luke

[@rienjen]

That's why Luke succeeds as a character, and Rey fails.

[@Needler13]

Not even Anakin, the chosen one himself. In fact, him trying to have everything led him to becoming Vader. A broken husk of a person

[@memerio1458]

@@Needler13 One of the reasons why Anakin/Vader works is because we sympathize with him because he constantly fails even though he’s always trying his best. Rey is good at pretty much everything, and as such seems more alien than some of the actual aliens in Star Wars.

[@popkorn256]

Also, Rey is just plain boring.

[@owo5869]

It’s flawed from the start Luke had his reasons to hate the Empire. Rey got into the conflict and just start murdering people by the thousands.

[@magicalglitch8801]

Anakin: How do I learn to heal people and defeat death? Palpatine: Literally, "NOT FROM A JEDI." Rey: Look! I'm healing people and defeating death!

[@Vulnresati]

Shes a Palpi tho

[@soaringraven0]

@@Vulnresati Also never technically a Jedi. Luke never trained her

[@keevanalrasyidumar5450]

@@soaringraven0 So how the hell does she got that?

[@terrified057t4]

@@Vulnresati nah even as a joke, not a valid reason. If Force Training was in peoples blood, why have the full on jedi order and trials XD

[@Vulnresati]

@@terrified057t4 yeah, but the sequels don't care. Literally the whole reason she can use Force lightning is because Grampa Palpi can.

[@RobDaKid87]

She went from not knowing the FORCE even existed to jedi mind tricking people and beating Kylo in a duel in 24hrs. That's why.

[@liberalsocialist9723]

Maybe she was a prodigy or unique like Broly among super saiyans. But I agree.

[@panther7584]

@@liberalsocialist9723 Among the prodigies we know mostly are; Anakin and his offsprings are prodigies, others are Jedi Masters or Sith (Dooku is not yet a Sith but he can fare Yoda). Luke after 3 years of training and was able to overpower Vader when getting close to use dark side. Prodigies has to work to reach their ceilings, otherwise, they cannot improve. Rey has literally done nothing (beside duels) to improve her so it's pretty much a sham. It's interesting you used Broly as an example (which is a good example); he's pretty much the only prodigy (beside Vegeta but that's King Vegeta's biased opinion). However, Broly trained almost all his life getting to where he can overpower both Saiyans until they resorted to Fusion then straight to SSB to overpower Broly.

[@mrknarf4438]

@@liberalsocialist9723 thing is, prodigies must have exceptional story arc to be relatable. If anything, she should have turned to the dark side: unlimited power without having earned it almost always corrupts, unless you have a great reason to stay good. Which she hadn't. They could have had her turning to the dark side and Kylo to the light, perhaps finding the way of the grey towards the end when she inevitably kills him due to her superiority, making it far more interesting.

[@knavenformed9436]

@@liberalsocialist9723 Still doesn't explain why she could fix ships she's never seen, communicate in languages she's never heard, and traverse in ways she would have no way to have learned like swimming. Both Anakin and Luke were in the family of prodigies, and they needed training to grasp basics.

[@SaintsFan09-z3s]

To be fair, kylo had just killed his dad, was shot with a bowcaster, and wasn't trying to kill Rey.

[@bunglelord4129]

She doesn't feel like a character, she feels like a walking talking plot device

[@nifftbatuff676]

She would be more interesting if she did not talk.

[@ryanstewart5727]

That is true of EVERY Star Wars protagonist.

[@eropatissier6706]

@@ryanstewart5727 found the guy who didn’t see the original trilogy nor the prequels

[@ryanstewart5727]

@@eropatissier6706 Your lies are noted, and dismissed.

[@enumaelish9193]

@@ryanstewart5727 My favorite part of Luke being a plot device was when he got his ass beat by Vader and was mostly useless for the first movie.

[@4_14_fan]

I think it's funny how the excuse from Disney about why the fans don't like Rey can be so easily proven wrong by pointing out the fact that everyone loves Ahsoka Tano

[@aarongarcia2839]

Facts

[@jamespilgrim3774]

Ahsoka is such a good character! You're totally right

[@benster344]

Everyone hated her at first

[@ryanblanch2764]

@@benster344 Yeah, but I’m pretty sure that was Filoni’s plan from the start. Making an instantly likable character has its drawbacks. Ahsoka was always meant to actually grow as a character. She has faults and those were evident at the beginning. She worked through them and became a character that evolved every bit as much with her failures or even more so than her triumphs. Rey was instantly perfect and struggled with nothing. She was always one-dimensional.

[@AcidifiedMammoth]

@@benster344 It was by design bro

[@iamimpossiblekim]

“Women in Star Wars didn’t need to be rewritten. They just needed to be written more about”

[@osmacar5331]

They're written shit, more isn't better

[@2007toyotacorolla]

Okay for Leia’s golden bikini thingy, I always thought of it as a way of making us hate Jabba more, which is what it made me do when I watched it. After all, making her wear it was an action of Jabba, the secondary villain there.

[@nekitaroyamaoto2135]

You are so naïve

[@Snagprophet]

Imagine if in Empire Strikes Back Vader made Leia wear a bikini?

[@trianglemoebius]

@@Snagprophet That'd be ENTIRELY out of character for Vader. Jabba is portrayed, very clearly and intentionally, as a gross, hedonistic crime boss - not a character you were supposed to like, or even any redeeming traits. Is there misogyny involved in the bikini? Yes. But it's JABBA being misogynistic, and there's no reason to assume the audience were supposed to look at this as a good thing. The intended reaction is disgust, and that concept: "sexualisation is the kind of thing done by slimy crime bosses" is NOT an endorsement of it.

[@Volkbrecht]

But also, the bikini thing was there to show off the hotness of a highly attractive actress. They couldn't have pulled that one off with Daisy Ridley, even if they wanted to.

[@liftedmarco4976]

I don’t even find Leia attractive but I never once had that thought lol. All I thought was wow that’s a hot outfit. I must be a piece of shit lol

[@danamania150]

Daisy Ridley saying that Rey has no weaknesses is actually hilarious lol

[@oceandawn26]

If she approached the character as 'having no weaknesses', it at least explains why I lost interest in Rey's journey before the end of The Force Awakens. Also, Hello Kitty rocks.

[@stevengrant4117]

So she knows why everyone hates her character 🤣

[@poliwag9570]

I liked Rey more in TFA because I thought JJ Abrams was going to make her into a Darth Bane type character. Rey slowly learns about the force through trial and error, she doesn't know what it is, just that she has it. This could even be how Rey knows about mind tricks; as a child she began to realize that people just did what she asked, or gave her what she wanted, and over the years played around with what was possible. Now I don't know anything about piloting, but what if Rey had never flown a ship, but she had been taught to copilot by the dude she's left with, because in his younger days, he still had to fly his own cargo places, idk. The previous training,, coupled with the force would help her fly the Mellon falcon alone. I realize I'm grasping at straws, but I believe these would've been good changes. I actually have a story written where Rey's parents are still alive, and she is raised in a John/sarah Conner type deal, but if Kyle Reese was also there too.

[@kaksspl]

​@@poliwag9570 To be fair, just "Rey slowly learns about the force through trial and error, she doesn't know what it is, just that she has it. This could even be how Rey knows about mind tricks; as a child she began to realize that people just did what she asked, or gave her what she wanted, and over the years played around with what was possible." sounds like a great setup for a trilogy where a nobody who has no idea about the force and Jedi discovers it all on her own and then gets pulled into the greater world of uncertain universe after the empire collapsed. All the potential political and moral conflicts emerging after emperor's death. There's just so much amazing potential that Disney absolutely ignored because money and political correctness go BRRRRRRR!

[@poliwag9570]

@@kaksspl She would have Luke, and Leia to guide her in the force; and to put a name to what it is she has been using. There is that kid, that snatches up the broom using the force, is there any reason why he would know what the force is called? Maybe he's heard stories, maybe, But he still uses it, and has some skill with it.

[@turretbarrage2707]

its okay, none of the sequel trilogy happened, it was just a spice trip luke had.

[@P.Whitestrake]

Luke was trippin' from a death stick.

[@cobussy]

Luke accidentally ate some of yoda’s “special” herbs on dagobah

[@onghaihoang335]

@@cobussy so that's why Yoda died, Luke stole his ketamine.

[@Himmiefan]

Let's hope!

[@misternobody3481]

You mean Rey. Luke was off training his Jedi apprentices while she was getting stoned on Jakku.

[@1dcondave]

Rey actually replaces ALL the classic trilogy characters. She's a desert orphan dressed in white linen and learning to use the Force- so she's Luke. She's a sparky teenage girl with an unusual hairstyle taking it to the evil armored white guys- so she's Leia. She flies the Millennium Falcon with Chewbacca- so she's Han Solo. And she spends her time fussing at a cute little round droid- so she's See-Threepio.

[@cack_dack7922]

My man is speaking facts

[@CreepyKrawler58]

C-3PO

[@CorbCorbin]

She’s also R2, because she somehow saves everyone a few times, and understands other droids somehow. Wait, does she save anyone but Finn? In person or ship, I mean? I seriously don’t remember now. I remember R2 shutting down the trash compactor. R2 somehow fixes the hyperdrive in the Falcon. R2 shoots Luke’s saber to him. R2 saves Anakin in the prequel too. R2 gets the shaft in the sequels. Flashbacks! BB-8 cuddles! Not my R2! 😂

[@hariman7727]

She's also Obi-Wan and Yoda, because she somehow has all the answers and teaches herself everything by the end.

[@1dcondave]

@CorbCorbin you got a point, she did bypass the compressor...

[@Paolur]

I always come back to Ellen Ripley. The character wasn't even gendered until after the first couple of drafts and so there was no need to give her over the top masculine traits to show how strong and independent she is. She's just a trucker in space who has to deal with a big monster and she doesn't do it in a badass girl boss type of way, she outthinks it and displays uncanny levels of bravery despite how terrified she is. If she was always in total control and just beat up the alien with her awesome female kung fu skills it wouldn't have had nearly the same weight.

[@iancuneo1820]

Never really saw her badassery but maybe that’s just cuz I don’t like the Alien franchise

[@trianglemoebius]

​@@iancuneo1820 Ripley gets a significant downgrade after Aliens, but given the script production was basically a mish-mash given birth by committee, just look up until 2: it should be pretty clear how awesome Ripley is. In Alien, Ripley is the most competent person on the ship, and in a position where she SHOULD be able to give orders... but constantly undervalued by her co-workers and her orders often ignored because she's a woman. She's also the only one able to actually come up with a way to survive, which is pretty clear dialogue on "sexism is wrong". In the second one, she's again undervalued, although less so. Interestingly, so is Vasquez, for basically the same reason. Vasquez has her own set of... problems, but that's incidental here. Anyway, Ripley is at first dismissed as insane - not because she's a woman, because she's telling a story that logically should be impossible - and learns a few skills, before it turns out she was 100% right about the xenomorphs, and immediately they're eager to bring her back as a consultant to deal with the issue. Which she does, and in the doing so her competence and perseverance earns her de-facto leadership of a Marine group... despite her being a civilian. Also she goes back and risks her life in order to save Newt against seemingly doomed odds, finally using the skills she learned in her civilian life to take out the Queen. Does that really not strike you as badass? It's not as glamourous as heroes like Rambo, but it's realistic, and shows incredible intelligence, perseverance, and selflessness. What more do you want in a hero?

[@Genomsnittet]

But she does have quite the few traits that are considered stereotypically masculine. She's very assertive, she had a master's degree in engineering, and she was a pilot. All of these things, are in fact, male traits. Or rather, they are considered stereotypically male traits. A female character may possess them, it is perfectly fine. It is particularly fine that her skillset and talent is clearly stated. This explains WHY she can do some amazing things. I think the selling point is that even though Ripley is brilliant, as you point out, she's friggin terrified. Despite this, she does her best to stay alive. She's brave in the face of fear. And she's not a rambo. People have a harder time digesting a female rambo than a male one (because of obvious sexism), when honestly, no matter the gender, the idea of a rambo is so INSANELY DUMB. If these people actually existed, there would never have to be wars. I mean f, just send rambo and it's an automated win. Another interesting thing that is discussed here which I think fall completely flat is the talk about the female icon syndrome. "Wah wa wi wa wa female characters shouldn't be strong because they possess typical male traits wa wa wa BULLSHIT". If you are portraying a warrior or a soldier, then i'm sorry to say, strength, fighting ability, tactical brilliance... All of these things are necessary to make a soldier "badass". Imagine a soldier who's weak, can't fight for shit, and make tactically dumb decisions. How would that ever be interesting to watch? Should we have given Ripley or Rey some more typically feminine traits? SHould they both be good at sewing? cooking? How would that help them against aliens/storm troopers? This is a very contrived way of saying "I don't think women can be soldiers" which again, is nothing but blatant sexism. complaining about giving women soldier traits and saying they should be exclusive to males is NOTHING but sexism. And the content creator here seems to fail to notice this.

[@violabeaumont3758]

The difference between Ripley and Rey is the Genre. You point to Ripley but Ripley is in a widely accepted heroine Genre called... The final girl. She is technically a horror movie icon and final girls are an accepted trope in Horror franchises. The entire series being led by a woman in Star Wars though? That is unacceptable still to this day. People will point to Leia and Ahsoka but Leia was a side character to Luke, and devolved into the widely accepted role of.. 'love interest' and 'damsel in distress'. Ahsoka got her own series and 'fans' have started to turn on the character ever since. These arguments are never in good faith because they always ignore the broader details. Saying.. "I don't hate female leads.. I like Ripley.." Is like saying "I am not racist I have a black friend.."

[@coolcat23]

The important aspect of any compelling character, female or not, is that not every challenge is a piece of cake to them. What are the stakes, if nothing is ever a real threat? By overpowering female characters to make them "strong", writers make opponents irrelevant (weak) and remove all concerns/empathy we may have for a protagonist. In other words, they create a boring character. Audiences do not dislike great female characters (there are so many great movies with female leads that were very successful), they dislike boring characters.

[@mementomori5580]

I don't get why people hate the whole "Putting Leia in a golden bikini outfit" part. That is like the best part of female empowerment they had! Some guys (mainly Jabba) just saw her as an object and trophy and put her in that outfit and chained her up. And what did Leia do? She took those exact same chains and strangled her captor to death with it! If that is not some kind of power move, then what is?

[@johantolli372]

Agreed. The fact that she is in a "sex-slave outfit" that Jabba forced on her when she kills him is the ultimate female powermove.

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

@@johantolli372 Jabba better be glad that it was NOT MK's Jade who killed him with her bo and ad one point in the storyline wore a costume similar to Leia

[@JoakimOtamaa]

Also, Carrie Fisher wanted to show more skin and that started a whole new fantasies for a lots of nerds. I have no problem with that.

[@LukeLovesRose]

You dont see guys calling fit men showing their bodies on camera, bitching about being objectified

[@wicusjansenvanvuuren2614]

Plus she did it looking hot in it.

[@ewok_soup]

It always amazed me how the exact same characteristics that in a man are called "toxic masculinity" in a woman are called "being a strong woman". Solving your problems through violence is either a good thing or a bad thing. Saying that it's ok when a woman does it sounds like you're saying "I mean, she's a woman, how much damage could she REALLY do?".

[@thahirshibu5042]

quite a lot with weapons involved. people make calculations when weapons are involved, whether you wield it or the other.

[@nathanjereb9944]

Hmm yes eQuAlItY...

[@j.a.hernandez9742]

literally the entire problem with the feminist movement...it contradicts itself

[@meridaskywalker7816]

@@j.a.hernandez9742 Unfortunately, the most toxic people are the loudest....as a feminist myself, I'm ashamed.

[@meridaskywalker7816]

@Always Unlucky They handled it quite well in 'Rouge one' and 'Rebels', tbh. The female characters were just well written characters and nobody tried to make them seem 'better' than guys. The biggest problem here is the sequel trilogy....🙄

[@evanrogers1825]

When it comes to strong female characters, I always point to Avatar: The Last Airbender. That show was rife with top quality characters, both male and female. But not a single female felt like she had to shed her womanhood to be considered strong. - Katara was motherly and emotional; Ty Lee was girly and spunky; Suki was supportive and feminine; Ursa was sacrificial and loving; even Toph and Azula who displayed “more masculine traits” (not strength as much as Machiavellian calculations, hardness, and lust for power; not necessarily exclusive to but definitely more commonly found in men) did so in a way that felt natural for a woman to reach that point. I think Suki summed it up best at the beginning of the show: “I am a warrior; but I’m a girl too.”

[@user-ut4tk4ph5z]

You dont even have to go to avatar, Star wars has plenty of strong women of every kind in the extended universe

[@scientist1343]

@@DarkCharmedFeminity I'm pretty sure he means making a character bland and uninteresting by giving them toxic masculine traits and calling them "strong" in the sense of "shedding womanhood"

[@leo-ru8qu]

I don't usually like female characters in fiction but nobara in jjk is really exceeded my expectations

[@user-ut4tk4ph5z]

@@leo-ru8qu "I dont like female characters" Damn that reeks of sexism.

[@FandomCanon]

I agree. Many writers seem to have mastered the art of the strong female character...until she's in the driver's seat, that is. Fast forward to Legend of Korra, and it was like the writers completely forgot about all the strong female heroes you just mentioned and said, "Okay, so...our strong female lead needs to be brash, and headstrong, and impulsive, and a jock, and kind of dumb when it's funny for her to be." Korra acts like more of a stereotypical bro than any of the male characters in ATLA. And I really believe that writers just fumble when it comes to putting a woman in the lead.

[@benjauron5873]

Yes, the character of Princess Leia always wore a costume relevant to whatever situation she was in. When she was a high-ranking noble official, she wore a flawless white dress, as a diplomatic official would. When she was fighting stormtroopers in the forest moon of Endor, she wore camouflage fatigues, as a woodland soldier would. And when she was a sex slave on Jabba's barge, she wore a gold bikini, as a sex slave would. I don't see what the problem is here.

[@evanairnomad4361]

facts

[@rebekah.2187]

Exactly. Some people just like to ignore the context and cherry pick something to focus on and complain about. Jabba is a gangster, spice dealer, and slave trader, among other questionable and illegal things, but people are upset he treats females as objects. 🙄 Even in the original version of movie you could see females of other species in his palace dressed in similar clothing, but they focus on Leia for some reason. Look at that poor Twi'lek girl who was dancing and then got fed to the rancor. I think her name was Oola or Ulla? She wasn't dressed like a nun. I don't hear anyone making a fuss over what she was wearing.

[@SWANSWAN-nc7ds]

@@rebekah.2187 I am confuse they are mad because a slave owner treating their slave like slave like do these people got a problem with portraying people endorsing slavering as bad people.

[@rebekah.2187]

@@SWANSWAN-nc7ds They are complaining about the way she is dressed. They just don't want to look at the context of the story, or the fact that other female alien species in the movie are dressed similarly. They are just looking for something to complain about and be offended.

[@ZukMyZik]

@@rebekah.2187and look at the new Star acolyte, the guy was being objectified it’s completely fine. It’s hypocrisy at its finest; it’s why I dislike feminist so much.

[@stevensteviepryde5888]

The way Luke and Anakin's mistakes and poor judgement impacted them was pretty big both losing limbs and loved ones. However because Rey's mistakes and poor judgement never actually impact her in any negative way, it makes it so even though she doesn't always win, she never truly loses either and it really makes the tension of any conflict involving her seem incredibly insignificant

[@asaenvolk]

Well her negative choices not only don't impact her in a negative way, but OTHER people pay the price for her errors.

[@theendersmirk5851]

Quite frankly, the best way to summarize the issue is, from the first movie onwards, they wrote her using the consequence rules of a side character, saying "yup, she can do this" without explanation, and not showing us any real consequences to her failings. She was, essentially, the Han of the Sequels, rather than the Luke. Instead, the first movie, Finn was the definitive Luke, having conflict, determination, consequences to what he did (even if minor). And what does Disney do for the second movie? Why, they have him take a perfectly reasonable course of action, trying to remove Rey's homing beacon from the seemingly doomed ship as fast as humanly possible so that if all else fails, at least all their eggs are not in a single basket, even if he can only save a minimum. He was making a tough call, but the right one in the scenario. He gets stopped, and then berated for that call, which is honestly worse than the mess with Poe because at least with Poe he was in the wrong (if only because he sent in the absolute worst bomber class ship for the job, resulting in that entire squadron getting killed off due to his mismanagement. Then, Finn gets to go on a magical journey to a gambling den to hear a shady dude foreshadow "capitalism is the real villain in this war" which turns into nothing really fast, and then proceed to have the entire gameplan to get the code breaker bungled because why not? Then, he tried to heroic sacrifice to buy the Resistance enough time to escape, and the same person who stopped him at the escape pod stops him there, putting her at two for two on the "stopping Finn from trying to save lives" board. Then in the last movie he's kinda there, by definition, but not in a role worth having, and the problem is, no one replaces his role as main character after the first movie, leaving them feeling bland and painful to watch.

[@Raymal100]

@@theendersmirk5851 Finn would've been the best main character. A "brainwashed" Stormtrooper that changes sides all of a sudden, develops his force powers that turns to the side of good. Starting off cold and disconnected but warms up to friends, developing his emotions as the story progresses. *Chef's kiss Original character (for the movie's at least). But they make him bumbling and comedic. None of the characters felt like actual characters, they felt like fans trying to be characters (which was how it was directed). You can tell it was aimed at the kids. Which makes it even worse. Star Wars never felt like a kids movie, it was science fantasy that everyone could enjoy.

[@theendersmirk5851]

@@Raymal100 Ironically, I don't even think he needed Force powers to be relevant. Not that he was going to win the big fights by shooting someone with a blaster, but as the main perspective character, letting us peek very well behind the curtain of what this magic space samurai B.S. looks like to the average citizen of the galaxy would be a refreshing change of pace if nothing else.

[@cb_norwood]

@@asaenvolk This is not fair comment. I'm pretty sure I saw Rey with something approaching a bruise at some point. And if it wasn't a bruise it was at least bordering on a mild abrasion. At any rate - her epidermis was seemingly irritated to some extent as a result of her tribulations. And she was presumably forced to deal with the ensuing fallout. Perhaps she had to apply a bandage or even possibly undergo a procedure wherein the bandage was applied to the affected area by a trained professional or a friend who was on hand. The movie doesn't explore this aspect of Rey's journey fully so we'll probably never have a canonical chain of events from which to draw definitive conclusions. Although to be fair - it could have possibly been psoriasis. Which falls more into the category of pre-existing condition. So perhaps you're right after all.

[@krato890]

The sequels make me appreciate the prequels more.

[@russellharrell2747]

That was The clone Wars job. And that show didn’t have to ruin star wars or split the fan base to do it.

[@spartanman1084]

Truth is…the prequels were good from the start.

[@russellharrell2747]

@@spartanman1084 prequels from the first: The Senate is powerless to stop a corporation from blockading a planet in protest of the taxation of trade routes. Riveting!

[@spartanman1084]

@@russellharrell2747 woosh

[@russellharrell2747]

@@spartanman1084 zoom zoom!

[@roomtempwater1]

One of my biggest problem with the sequel trilogy is the return of palpating because it completely shits all over the first six movies and just undoes Anakins entire story arc

[@TitanXecutor]

Somehow the senate returned

[@MyToranja]

@@TitanXecutor Somehow the Senate returns, but no one cares about the rest of the Galaxy. Like, is the Trade Federation making an embargo at another planet in the Mid rim, and what about the droid attack on the Wookiees?

[@the_chosen_one_fr]

Yeah my story arc was really cool but some dumbass scavenger ruined it all

[@Green18765]

Recently watched a Anakin tribute, Made me cry. Then I remembered the sequels and cried harder. It is so depressing, As a kid I loved the prequels and Anakin was and still is my favorite character from star wars. To see his entire story be disrespected like that, It hurt me. I will always disregard the canon, as canon. I love clone wars. Everything else is a insult.

[@anthonymcrooster3703]

That's the sole reason why I don't care what Disney calls canon in Star Wars. There are definitely *many* reasons to, but they're insignificant next to the power of taking a massive s__t on the stakes of first 6 movies.

[@markmallon3923]

Rey’s story began as an exact parallel to Luke’s, and then her obscene power escalation was unexplained.

[@ProlMLGJoe]

The simplest explanation as to why I dislike Disney Wars VII-IX.

[@eeveeofalltrades4780]

They could have made it so that she could learn things quickly through the Force but if she learned how to use the Force through that she had to learn to master it.

[@TheUncivilizedNation]

Rey is completely stacked. She got Luke’s origins with Anakin’s potential while also having her Granddaddy Palpatine’s Unlimited Power

[@kylie_h1978]

"Rey’s story began as an exact parallel to Luke’s" Except that it isn't. The Plot is parallel, but not the Story. With Luke we see very quickly what his desire is, he wants excitement and adventure. He is looking off to the horizon and dreaming about what is beyond it. He wants to escape Tatooine and join the Rebellion. We also see what holds him back. The voice in his head telling him that he'll never be more than a moisture farmer. The voice of his uncle. It's the voice of doubt that he can be something greater, that he can realize his dreams. It's a voice that crushes hope. Luke's story begins with that conflict, between his desire to get away, to become a hero and have adventures with the Rebellion vs his being fated to be nothing but an ordinary farm boy on a dead-end planet. This is what leads to his rejecting the call to adventure. We literally see this play out on the screen. Luke isn't pushed into adventure, he wants it and chooses it, but only after the literal voice of doubt, his Uncle, dies and is no longer there to speak out against his leaving, to hold Luke back and keep him on Tatooine. Now look at Rey. Her desire is to remain on Jakku. She doesn't want anything else because she's content waiting there for her parents to return. That's her desire, to sit there doing nothing till her parents come back. She looks at the sunset not because she's wishing to be somewhere else, to see what's over the horizon, but rather because it's a sunset. She doesn't have a deep lie holding her back, because she's already doing what she desires. I guess you could say that the lie is that her parents aren't coming back, but that doesn't conflict with her desire to wait, it doesn't push her forwards, or hold her back. There is no inner conflict here. And to that end, when the plot happens, it happens to her, not because of her. She's not an active protagonist who pushes things forward by making active choices based on her desire and screwing up because of the lie she is telling herself. She goes on adventure because it is thrust onto her and she goes with the flow. She doesn't actively choose it, and it in fact conflicts with her actual desire of staying put. Luke and Rey's stories are quite opposed to each other. One chooses to go on the adventure he has dreamed of going on all his life, while the other is forced onto an adventure she doesn't want and spends her time telling everyone she really just wants to go home.

[@ProlMLGJoe]

@@kylie_h1978 100

[@LeeerroyJenkins]

A character like Anakin went through an epic saga of a transformation from an altruistic little boy, to angsty confused teen, and finally becoming a Dark Lord. All along the way he failed in many ways, learned hard lessons, won a fair share of moments too. His character development is pretty much centered around his flaws as a person and how his environment easily molded him. Rey bought the Ultimate Collectors Edition of the Force and power leveled to 100 right away and just speed ran through her saga. She skipped all the cutscenes and didn't even bother with the side quests.

[@Unethical.FandubsGames]

Luke is almost like a mirror image of Anakin when you really think about it. Their stories both revolve around how flawed they are and how their mistakes allow them to grow as people but their circumstances are very different. Rey on the other hand... Well she has a hard upbringing and then... no mistakes ever... Or at least no consequences.

[@selalewow]

Anakin went from "I will do anything to save my wife" to slaughtering children with absolutely no rhyme or reason. That was a poorly written part. It was like they realized there were a bunch of kid Jedi that were not in the original series and quickly tried to "fix" it.

[@Unethical.FandubsGames]

@@selalewow No reason? He killed Mace Windu (or at least he thought so) saw no way of going back and still needed Palpatine to help him save Padme. To add to that. He legitimately had come to see the Jedi as corrupt. It's not "for no reason" at all. In fact the moment he was under Palpatine. There was no going back. Palpatine was too powerful for him to resist against and he was essentially fucked beyond that point.

[@selalewow]

@@Unethical.FandubsGames All that happened AFTER he killed the younglings. The only thing that happened before was Palpatine telling him about Darth Sidious.

[@NicSantiagoG]

@@selalewow Anakin killed kids in episode 2 seeking revenge for his mother. I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a leap of logic killing kids to save his wife and child(really children but he didn't know that).

[@TheSonicShoe]

I say this about every actor in these films, but I do feel bad for Daisy Ridley. She managed to give an enthusiastic and engaging performance despite being given a script with basically 0 character development in it. With better writing and directing, this cast could have made some of the most memorable and enjoyable cinema of the decade. There's hints of that in Rey's force skype calls with Kylo, bickering with Luke, and hall of mirror's scene in TLJ. When the trilogy actually took it's time to just breathe and let the characters have moments to express themselves, and explore their ideologies (superficial though most of them were), there were a few glimmering glimpses at what could have been with just a little bit more passion, and a whooooooolllllllllllllle lot more planning.

[@brqnded]

😮

[@jamesharbinger1711]

@@brqnded you win for best name

[@blackbirdgaming8147]

It was definitely never Daisy Ridley’s fault. She did a great job with what she was given.

[@rhys5430]

yeah daisy ridley seems like a lovely woman. they are all really talented i would actually say the sequels had the best acting out of all the films

[@brqnded]

@@rhys5430 acting isn’t dialogue…

[@CinematicSeriesGaming]

The whole reason Anakin turned to the dark side was his desire to learn how to cheat death and save Padme. It was a legendary ability that was so unnatural and bizarre that even a sith lord like Palpatine didn't fully understand it. Anakin's desire to learn this secret got Padme killed, got him mutilated and turned him into a tragic villain controlled by the Emperor. So not only was cheating death extremely difficult. Anakin also paid a huge price for wanting to obtain this power. And then there's Rey... She casually heals mortal wounds with ZERO experience or knowledge and faces ZERO consequences for it. It's not only bad storytelling. It's downright disrespectful towards Anakin and previous Star Wars movies.

[@VestedUTuber]

I will say that Force Healing isn't entirely unprecedented. In Legends, Cade Skywalker is able to use a similar ability, although his takes the form of a sort of "reverse" Force Lightning. In addition, the Jedi Medical Corps were able to use a form of Force Healing, but it required multiple users, took a LOT of effort, and could be dangerous to the users if overused.

[@CinematicSeriesGaming]

@@VestedUTuber Force Healing was also in my favorite Jedi game - Jedi Academy. It's a cool mechanic for a video game but it kind of breaks the logic of Star Wars in movies. It's too powerful and magic-like. Force used to be way more subtle and mystical. It was not a superpower. The only exceptions were some powerful unnatural dark side powers like Force Lightning.

[@VestedUTuber]

@@CinematicSeriesGaming Oh yeah, definitely. And even when it did superpower-ish stuff beyond basic telekinesis, there was always a massive cost. Force Lightning required strong, hateful emotions to use and didn't play well with cybernetics. Similarly, both Legends versions of Force Healing had steep costs - the Jedi Medical Corps method pulled from the life force of its users' at a very inefficient rate, and Cade's version was flat-out a Dark Side power in its own right, and a very deep one at that - Cade only avoided completely and irreversibly falling when using it because he didn't want what the Dark Side was trying to tempt him with in the first place.

[@thomaslabrum8182]

@@VestedUTuber the problem with that is that most people dont read the additional lore, let alone know what is considered cannon and fanfiction. disney made alot of lore non-cannon, and completely disconnected from anything close to fanfiction, then couldnt decide how to write a story so just clung to the original trilogy, taking a huge dump on it in the process. it would have fit the narrative if disney wrote force healing and absorption into the new movies as a reason the "force awakens", it would make sense that the old jedi order was stagnant and saturated with mediocrity, and would explain how they misread the prophecy of restoring balance to the force. they also wasted why midichlorian count was even a thing, let alone waste the very reason it indicated jedi potential. it would've been better if they treated being a light or dark force user as a philosophy, a "balanced" force user would be able to draw equally from both sides.

[@VestedUTuber]

@@thomaslabrum8182 I think you're reading too much into this. I was simply pointing out that force healing itself isn't anything new, nothing more. What Rey's doing is still ridiculous compared to previous examples.

[@MegaUMU]

Rey: doesnt grow in all episodes and has like no consequence of her actions Luke: ep 4 simple humble hero Ep 5 misguided/walks into a trap trying to be said hero and gets punished by losing hand as well as confronted with soulcrushing "Im your Father" truth Ep 6: Stands back up from defeat, confronts his father, resist the emperor finally becoming a true jedi as well as gets rewarded by letting his father be the "Chosen One" and letting him redeem himself for a shortlived family reunion between father and son.

[@YevOnegin]

That Abrams bit at 13:38 is mindblowing in how empty-headed it is. "A kid who doesn't know who "she" is, doesn't know whats going on, and doesn't know "she's" living in Star Wars. What happens if thats our leader character?" You mean.....Luke Skywalker? Literally Luke Skywalker?

[@paradoxequinox4104]

Dude right? Guy was chilling on Tatooine fixing up droids and living with his uncle before his life went to hell. Even throughout the movies you can still feel that general "what's going on" feel at times. Helps him feel real.

[@darko-man8549]

A number of years ago I said to someone: "I really dislike The Last Jedi, and wasn't fond of TFA beyond the momentary nostalgia trip (it fell apart once I thought about the film), and their [Disney's] desperate attempt to get us to love the new female Jedi whilst giving her no semblance of struggle or personality sucks" "so you dislike having strong women in star wars?" "not really, my favourite character is arguably Ahsoka Tano" "Who?" [followed by me explaining who she was and why I love her and why she is a good star wars character and why SW didn't lack for well-written non-males] by the end they sort of agreed with me

[@DatDude0925]

And there’s the issue. A whole bunch of non fans judge the series at a surface level and jump to conclusions based on that. They don’t even know of the full depth of Star Wars lore.

[@Mexican20067]

@@DatDude0925 Yeah kinda pisses me off when I see people like dat

[@TheBenjaminArgo]

Don't forget Mara Jade. She's pretty cool and featured heavily in the original Thrawn Trilogy. I read his more recent trilogy set before the original one and his portrayal of Padme made her a total badass. If he'd written Mara Jade with that same level of experience, she'd probably be one of my favourite Jedi, period.

[@swisschris6480]

"Who?" Honestly that bugs me so much. Ahsoka became such a well developed character that I got excited to see her in Mando and disappointed they did so little with her. At least she's getting a series so it was ALL to get people hyped for the first Jedi in Mando only to drop her

[@marshmallowvampire8503]

My god. I'm glad you were able to explain it.

[@lornehulett7702]

The problem with Rey, in my opinion, boils down to one thing, and you touched on it briefly. That being Rey can do things she should not be able to do. Luke has rudimentary training from Kenobi and Yoda, goes off half cocked to face Vader. Han gets frozen and Luke gets beat up and his hand cut off. Rey has absolutely no training at all and she can have Force visions, Skype calls with Kylo, she can wield a lightsaber and conjure Force lightning, something by the way at one point was stated as only being able to be done by force users with EXTENSIVE training and power.

[@tyvamakes5226]

And her first force? Mind trick a First Order stormtrooper. WITHOUT ANY SETUP. And if some people think you can siphon knowledge by resisting mind control, then there's no point of kidnapping babies and train them for DECADES.

[@cantthinkofaname5046]

I think they actually should have used Rey’s inexplicably strong force abilities as a plot point (not in the bloodline way), like what if since Kylo was resisting the light, the “will of the force” kicked in and made Rei super strong for balance. Also, in fairness, the force Skype calls were set up by Snoke (Papatine)

[@dirus3142]

Doing things that are beyond the ability of a protagonist, especially a skill that requires training and expertise in, is one of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue.

[@Heather_ash.03]

"Skype calls with Kylo." I'm dying. Lmao

[@amvcentral9198]

Not to mention she can force heal, something so incredibly difficult the chosen one,anakin,a grand master of 10,000,yoda and the most skilled jedi of all time,luke Skywalker, never showed evidence of using or knowing about the ability to force heal,if you except sidious telling anakin a guy with a big head on the opposite side who died during a grandpa nap could do something similar with extreme practice Meanwhile with rey sky- rey palp-reysi Ridle- marey sue just did it with basically no mention of how or shock from a galaxy that never saw something again except for that horrific snake scene that makes no sense because she didn't mind trick it and- off topic, and to trigger you even more,kylo,a sith assassin who never studies that deeply into the force or even knows about it as shown by his reaction in tros,does it,with no training H O W Just Kill it I hate to admit it but i think,with the sequels which at least 90% of people didn't like,rebels which was unpopular,the bad batch that for me was disappointing,and the drunken bedroom mistake that was resistance ,i think it's time we put star wars to bed,or at least give it to filoni or lucas,who for the most part(looking at aotc and tbb here) are the essentials of star wars

[@DominicMaez]

Rey and the trilogy she was in did inspire me! To never watch Disney again!

[@kristiaanstolt6931]

I think it’s the fact, that they made her almost instantly good at everything she tried while becoming a Jedi

[@Eclypsia13]

I genuinely feel that if they made her struggle with the generic lightsabers, but when she got to Luke he gave her the saber staff variant. It would've worked so much better, because we had already seen her be quite proficient with the Bo staff growing up as her weapon of choice. So her translating skills she developed that way would've made at least some logical sense, As well as giving some more Gravitas to Luke as a "This combat style would serve you much better" As it would show he knew what he was talking about. Guy ran a school for Jedi, he shouldn't have issues teaching.

[@Delta-lu5kf]

So, like Luke and Anakin?

[@woomyboy98]

@@Delta-lu5kf Luke got absolutely stomped by Vader in the Empire Strikes Back and Anakin lost an arm to count Dooku in Attack of the Clones. Rey doesn't have any moments of major failure like they did so she really was just flawless in achieving her goals.

[@Delta-lu5kf]

@@woomyboy98 Except Rey was also stumped in her duels. Actually (re)watch her first fight with Kylo. She's literally running away the entire time

[@Halt938]

@@Delta-lu5kf That makes it even worse, doesn't it? As you said, she is literally losing, but then closes her eyes for three seconds and suddenly wins!?

[@alanruhland2489]

The hardest part I had about accepting her as a Skywalker was that she didn't lose a hand or limb. Any protagonist named Skywalker has to do that. She's a faux Skywalker.

[@terrified057t4]

I was kinda hoping for her to accept her Palpatine name and to wipe the slate clean with her future actions. That way, Palpatine would be remembered as the name of Rey Palpatine, the Jedi who stopped the return of the Emperor and destruction of the galaxy, rather than of Emperor Palpatine.

[@stark2491]

Rey is soo good at fighting she never takes a hit!

[@jockturner1547]

Hey Shmi Skywalker never lost a limb, just her life

[@alanruhland2489]

@@jockturner1547 OK, you can only be a protagonist/antagonist and a Skywalker if you lose a limb.

[@cianoreilly.]

@@alanruhland2489 Leia didnt

[@axelminus]

How to write a great female character: Step 1: Write a good character Step 2: Make them female Disney chose: Step 1: Make them female Step 2: Profit

[@twocansams6335]

Well blame the idiots who keep watching this shit, even their new series, all ass, nothing compared to the quality of the original. Wana watch good science fiction go watch "The Expanse". Star Wars and Star Trek are franchises I used to love, done with both.

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

Word for word what my argument for female and minority characters has been for years now. Ahsoka is the proof. An absolutely amazing character who’s gender and species is the least interesting thing about her. Someone incredibly powerful but has earned every power, feat, skill, wit and ability through hard work, training and perseverance. Everything impossible she pulls off is earned and you see Anakins influence on her in action yet she is distinctly her own person, her own powerful presence. She is an amazing Jedi, the physical embodiment of the light after Mortis, yet nobody complains about any of that. She earned it.

[@ZXPhazze]

It's clear to me that you know sh1t about writing. Writing good characters before defining them? seriously? you think writing works this way? You think you can write a neutral character an then pick any gender you want? don't be naive.

[@axelminus]

@@ZXPhazze I may be naive, but unless the character arc, or plot require a character to be a specific gender I don't see your point. E.g. lets say Toph from Avatar is male, since she is one my favorite female characters. Please explain how that impacts the story, because I don't see it

[@recordofragnarokisapurehyp6660]

@@axelminus Tbh Toph's gender is kinda important in her backstory because her parents considered her their little, vulnerable, blind girl and she clearly wasn't that. I think it would be less impactful if she was a guy as boys are always considered stronger and parents get more over-protective over girls than boys.

[@Wolf-bz6kq]

I find most protagonists in superhero TV shows, movies, and comic books for the last ten years have been self insert characters for the people behind the scenes. That new Velma show is a perfect example

[@_Just_John]

Yea, the trend of massive studios funding shallow fanfiction projects of troubled individuals inserting themselves into established IPs is quite annoying.

[@mpnuorva]

Rey is anti-Luke. She's a character defined by constant validation of everything she is and the people around her failing horribly at trying to change for the better, none more than Jake Skywalker.

[@shadzmunisworthless765]

Apparently Mary Sue

[@LukeLovesRose]

Ironically, we're now living in an antichrist society

[@lapisinfernalis9052]

"Mary Sue is a female's name so it's sexist." Have you ever heared of Gary Stue, the male Mary Sue?

[@stevenandrewchua542]

Also, the term originated from the very first Mary Sue. They were named Mary Sue and was the protag of a Star Trek fanfic

[@lavasqrl702]

Gary Stue killed me.

[@silashurd3597]

I’ve never heard anyone say it’s offensive but in the end, I really don’t care if people think that

[@lapisinfernalis9052]

@@silashurd3597 stupid people think that

[@EduardoTorelly]

No, i never heard of Gary Stue.

[@1dcondave]

Daisy said it herself: "Rey has NO weaknesses" and that DOES make her a Mary Sue. Look at Luke's character arc: he was a naïve kid, and a bumpkin, and not really good at much. We watch him fail and fall on his ass again and again, watch him throw petulant tantrums, try to AMOG an actual space pirate, get frustrated again and again, fail to listen to his elders... there was only one thing, just one thing he was really good at- flying. And it took him 'til the end of the first movie before he got to really use that skill.

[@RaccoonThrowdown]

Exactly! At the end of the first movie, Luke has been shown to be a good pilot, who thinks on his feet and has a strong connection to the force. At the end of her first movie, Rey has been shown to be a great brawler (taking down three thugs by herself), an ace pilot, an excellent mechanic, a crack shot, a force prodigy, and pretty skilled with a lightsaber, despite having no formal training in anything. Jedi are Mary Sue-ish by nature, but Rey takes it to another level.

[@Kleyguy7]

@water yeah, modern star wars feels like marvel movie. It's like kids playing and shouting "I am stronger I can move rocks!" and the other kid is shouting "I can stop a flying ship! I am stronger". It has no depth to it.

[@mopar_dude9227]

@water I don’t agree with Obi Wan throwing the boulders at Vader as being over the top. Obi Wan was quite powerful using the force and was certainly capable of such an attack. Especially in that he was using everything he had to try and defeat Vader once and for all. You can’t really compare the strengths of the Jedi from the prequels to that of Luke, Ben, Yoda, and even Vader in the original trilogy. Both Ben and Yoda had grown weak over the years and could not wield the power of the force as they had in their youth. Even Vader had weakened to some extent due to having no real adversaries to deal with. And Luke basically had the power of a padawan at the end of episode IV. Every force user that was left at that point was substantially weaker than Jedi of the past.

[@NoName-ji9mb]

​@water I'm pretty sure they put that in as a retcon for Disney fanatics to use as a defense to go "SEE REY ISN'T A MARY SUE OBIWAN DID IT TOO WITHOUT TRAINING!!!!"

[@godzillavkk]

No physical weaknesses. Mental weaknesses though...

[@chadChampion0700]

The problem with a lot of movies is that they want a strong female character so bad. They dont care how well written it is.

[@CloudJLaw]

Yeah, everything is coming down to forcing diversity (especially when it’s not needed)

[@LilacMonarch]

You know they only care about the money and virtue signalling when they can't write a story better than any random kid's first fanfic.

[@IHopegood]

Leia & Ahsoka are how you write a strong female character.

[@padwin92]

Yeah correct, or herra syndula as well. And if you wish a good badass female character, you only need to look at fennic.

[@guardiantree8879]

Padme too from the clone wars show.

[@hessexm8065]

there are too many people writing strong female characetrs, when they should write strong characters who just happen to be female

[@anna-flora999]

Ahsoka also had more jedi training in her first appearance than Luke had in episode 6.

[@whotftookthuurs]

It's funny, since ahsoka was hated by the community during the first seasons of clone wars. Rightfully so, since she was written precisely to be annoying and kinda unlikable.

[@arisucheddar3097]

Rey had the most beautiful character introduction. The music, the scenery, the solitude. She's got her little mask on, scavenging, and there's no dialogue. All the little things she does in that portion of the movie are great. Likewise Kylo is introduced in a pretty threatening way. That scene holds tension and the blaster shot being held mid- air was interesting without totally breaking immersion. Then it all got "subverted". Rey was not some naive, starry-eyed girl about to be dragged into a massive clash among the stars. She was just the amazing perfect Chosen One and the universe was just stupid for letting her languish. And Kylo was actually being controlled, and generally a petulant man-child throwing tantrums. By the end of the movie he had nowhere near the gravitas of Vader. How could he? He's a guy after all. He stabbed his dad sure, but then that fight outside... meh.

[@AkariYuudou]

Honestly, that last bit of yours is also why I hated Reva too. Outwardly, Vader was generally this calm, well-spoken guy who just happened to be big and burly and wearing a mech-suit that most folks who didn't really know him could probably just ignore as some kind of intimidation tactic...until they crossed a line with him and suddenly found themselves slammed against a wall or caught in a Force Choke or something, while Vader's still off to the side standing basically still and telling them how badly they fucked up in that same deceptively chill voice, or just moving on and talking to his victim's successor while said victim is still in the process of asphyxiating. THAT'S intimidating, THAT'S terrifying, because there's never any outward sign that you're GOING too far with the guy. Just the fallout and the price you pay after you already HAVE. Hell, you could even take away Vader's suit and size and just present him as a regular, normal-sized dude like Hayden Christensen was/is, and that sort of behavior is still gonna rattle you even if the character doesn't have that first intimidating impression on his side.(As a side note to this, the fact that Tarkin had the balls to constantly question Vader's methods and priorities AND GOT AWAY WITH IT made him seem like more of a badass by proxy.) Kylo Ren started off similarly cool, especially with the bit you mentioned with him catching and holding a blaster bolt with the Force before completely mind-raping Poe for all the info the First Order needed from him. He was a total badass...for all of about 20 real-world minutes. Then Finn and Rey left Jakku with BB-8 and Kylo started destroying what I assume was some fairly important machinery on the bridge of his ship, and I almost laughed at how absurd it was. Vader RULED his negative emotions in order to draw power from them; Kylo was ruled BY his. And to me, that made him less imposing as a villain. And Reva was just more of the same, only without the initial buildup to make her seem cool. We see the Grand Inquisitor being calm and chillingly intimidating while looking for their missing Jedi, while Reva just scowls in a corner for a bit before she ruins it all by being loud and petulant and just threatening violence if she doesn't get her way. Whereas the Grand Inquisitor was kind of a Vader Lite, Reva was just Kylo's successor...or predecessor, depending on whether you look at them from our chronological perspective or the show's. Neither of them worked as the (supposed) primary threats of their respective entries in the franchise because they both just acted like whiny children crying and making a scene in the store when Mommy and Daddy wouldn't buy them the toy they wanted. And as the audience, you're--or at least I'M--not intimidated by that. You're not scared of the guy screaming his throat hoarse when things go wrong. You're scared of the guy you know can kill someone with a gesture but gives no outward sign of when or if that gesture is coming.

[@jackbaxter2223]

I actually really liked that bit about Kylo. He was definitely not Vader, but rather a guy desperately *trying* to be Vader. Michael's right that he was ruled by his negative emotions instead of ruling them as Vader did, but I think his deliberate decision to kill his own father to further his descent to the dark side was really well done. You can see his uncertainty about his path, that he knows that what he's doing is wrong, but he chooses to do it anyway. The way he repeatedly thumps his own injury while outside afterwards to fuel his pain and hate was a great touch. If they had actually kept with that and made him the primary villain it would have been great, but of course they had to ruin it in the third movie by making him 'turn good' and help Rey. I think the biggest mistake they had was making Poe shit-talk him when they brought him in. None of the characters are allowed to be intimidated by the villains, so none of the characters show the villains any respect. Phasma just has Finn talking smack to her and then gets chucked down a garbage chute. Hux was absolutely ruined in TLJ because they turned him into a joke, instead of him being about on par with Kylo Ren and competing with him for power, influence and Snoke's favour.

[@Attaxalotl]

Episode 7 wasn't the best movie. It had pretty good setup; introduced some likable characters and then just didn't capitalize on it. Rey was given about as much character as a piece of drywall. They couldn't decide what character arc to give Finn, so they just gave him all of them and never finished any of them. And he was my favorite character in concept. We'd never gotten a former stormtrooper protagonist before. Poe wasn't too bad. He's not a direct parallel to any of the original cast; though he's basically Maverick: Star Wars edition. Kylo Ren was whiny; but he gets a "bad guy" pass- except the writers could never decide who's side he was on. It's not that he couldn't decide who's side he was on, that would have been a cool arc. He was on whoever's side the story demanded only for as long as the story demanded.

[@Damianweibler]

Could Kylo's character have been saved with a different actor? I thought whatshisname was far too mature looking to pull off childish tantrum, but what if he'd been younger, and less intimidating under the mask? Picture all of Rens scenes but with, say, Tom Holland under the mask

[@Attaxalotl]

@@Damianweibler Still, Adam Driver absolutely carried the Sequels. Doing honestly pretty well with awful writing. Imagine if Hux had been Tim Curry

[@mopar_dude9227]

It is simple, she never has to work to become what she is portrayed as. She knows how to fix and fly the Millennium Falcon better than Hans and Chewy. She can wield a lightsaber and fight against a person that has been trained by one of the strongest Jedi. She can perform one of the hardest Jedi powers, “Jedi mind trick”, without any training. And with very little training from Luke, she becomes more powerful than him in just a few months. A character’s struggle is what makes them likable and believable.

[@hariman7727]

Mad Munchkin's joke character Mary Sue (yes, the character in her review show is literally names Mary Sue, because she's a joke about Mary Sue characters) is written better... because effort was put into writing Mad Munchkin's Mary Sue character.

[@Berasu]

Also, she regularly uses her anger in many actions (specially fighting), and that is not the way of the jedi...

[@Alexisme.]

She’s a scavenger, A SCAVENGER, she knows how ship parts work, if you were to have robbing houses as a specialty you’d be able to pick locks and possibly fix them, same thing for the falcon

[@ohio948]

@@Alexisme. there's guys that go around collecting scrap metal in my neighborhood. Doesn't mean they know how any of those metal things actually work or can repair them. It's easy to take things apart. But try putting something together that's the real challenge.

[@Alexisme.]

@@ohio948 that’s different, Rey is a scavenger, plus in the Star Wars universe, if you take something apart the wrong way, it breaks, we see an example of this in empire strikes back when they’re on hoth, Chewy tries takes off parts to repair it and ultimately, he fails, in the force awakens, Rey takes off something in the falcon, it didn’t break, Star Wars and real life shouldn’t be too comparable, nothing isn’t supposed to make sense in the end anyway, why? It’s Star Wars

[@jasonkesser]

That Was really, really well done… Your tone and vibe is sick and this somehow added a new take, didn’t think that was possible at this point

[@Lil_Valor]

Finn had so much potential to be the main protagonist and Jedi. His background and character was so unique if he was to become a Jedi

[@GarkKahn]

Also the fact he could become a jedi or something similar was thrown through the window

[@lasercraft32]

And it would have tied in well with the lore too. The whole reason they stopped using clones and started _literally kidnapping children_ to turn into Stormtroopers was because Clones are 99% of the time devoid of any force powers. A force sensitive clone is one in a million, so they stopped using them because regular humans were more force sensitive.

[@johnnyD1971]

I would have loved this for Finn

[@ARuiz-eu3hk]

That would have been sweet. Hell early and better scripts we're Finn being force sensitive ex strome trooper that help rey stay in the light or at least netural.

[@josep754]

But china didnt like it and the writers are lazy so he takes more and more of a back seat to the point where he's more of a background character than anything and he gets made itty bitty tiny in the chinese poster

[@bizuett]

It's refreshing watching a woman making a nerd-movie video essay I didn't expect it until you started to talk lol.

[@Acueil]

Blame KZbin. The one who got put on the front are people who follow their narrative. There are actually plenty of women who called out this fake wokeness on Hollywood movies. They are just suppressed by KZbin.

[@arielrose9874]

@@Acueil exactly. We’re able to explain why their fakeness actually sets us back rather than propels us forward

[@1JohnBeat]

"Rey is fine, she's fine, completely fine... no consequences... and Rey at the end of TLJ is... fine." The way you said it, was the way I felt back then after watching the movie.

[@calexander7495]

I felt like The Force Awakens significantly undermined the prior movies and offered very little of interest in return, and The Last Jedi destroyed what little they had going for it.

[@lucianwong420]

She is fine, though. But only in looks.

[@tophatdoctor7855]

I feel like Rey becoming a Skywalker was probably planned from the beginning, with the passing comments about her lack of a last name. It might have been cool if we got a more explicitly parental relationship between Rey and either Luke or Leia that was built up during the second and third movie, so that by the end she had actually been adopted as a Skywalker and worthy to take up the name, instead of just claiming it as her own for no reason. Might have also been a good way to continue her struggle over needing parental guidance, and keep forcing her to a lower point as those parent figures are taken away from her for a second and then a third time. Who knows, could have actually been a really great character if communication was a little better at Lucasfilm.

[@LilacMonarch]

Honestly yeah, the only reason her taking the name bothered me is because there was no scene with like Leia talking to her and after noting the lack of a last name, offers her own. That would take like 20 seconds and still make it feel 1000x better.

[@terryrocks2j]

Actually, if you look at the bigger picture, Disney re-wrote the prophecy to say she is the Skywalker to take down Palpatine. After learning this I choose not to accept the sequel trilogy as canon.

[@almostadonovan]

"Female characters in Star Wars didn't need to be rewritten, they just needed to be written about more." Most accurate thing anyone has ever said.

[@Magpie_Media]

So accurate, it's more accurate than your comment saying how accurate it was. Creating a paradox in which it can't in fact be the most accurate thing anybody has ever said, because if it were, the comment saying that it is accurate would be less accurate, this would imply that the 'most accurate thing anybody has ever said' was less accurate. Help me.

[@andyb1653]

The problem with Rey is actually a simple one: She lacks depth.

[@nathanjereb9944]

She's so 2 or even 1 dimensional that I'm surprised she didn't fall into any cracks in the floor or stuck in between dimensions

[@jasminrissanen2317]

Her character is empty, boring and too perfect.

[@andyb1653]

@@jasminrissanen2317 Other Mary-Sue characters call HER a Mary-Sue.

[@Tyranitar96DAanimator]

Tardigrades have better depth than her lol

[@dylanmcloughlin2187]

The reason Luke was likable was because he says he needs to stay and work with his parents rather than go on a quest with Obi Wan, even though we know we know he wants to. This selflessness is why we like him.

[@russellharrell2747]

But that’s the initial rejection of the call to adventure that the Hero goes through before deciding to (or being forced to) start his journey. Basic Campbell hero’s journey stuff.

[@Ruylopez778]

Luke is relatable. They tried to make Rey "likeable". That's the difference.

[@Pneumanon]

@@russellharrell2747 Not sure the point you're making here- it's become 'basic Campbell heroes journey stuff' in storytelling because of the way it was used and the impact it made in the original Star Wars.

[@LeeerroyJenkins]

@@Ruylopez778 Yeah luke was just a whiny kid with some friends who were leaving before he could, he was clueless about the alien world around him and learned the hard way often or needed help from mentors. He was in love with a princess at first sight and jealous when Han entered the picture there. He was just a dude lol

[@Ruylopez778]

@@LeeerroyJenkins And the key thing missing from the sequels; Luke gets *support* from his mentors in the OT. It's what audiences identify with; Rocky, Karate Kid, Million Dollar baby, LOTR, Fast n Furious, Grand Torino, Devil Wears Prada all have this formula. Sequels are just fractured mentor relationships, broken parents. Rey gets given things. That's about it.

[@JayTor2112]

She's not an unlikeable character on a personality level, she's just the ultimate mary Sue.

[@kaygee2121]

What exactly makes her a Mary Sue? The fact that she was tough and knew how to fight because of being left to fend for herself from a young age? Her backstory...which is important to her character...literally makes her NOT a Mary Sue. I'm so sick of that term.

[@bugonboris6681]

@@kaygee2121 I think it's because she was able to pilot a ship and use blasters perfectly even though she never piloted a ship before.

[@nothingreallyrhymeswithora9377]

@@kaygee2121 Mary Sues are "perfect" all of the time. More than anything else, the plot BENDS to the Mary Sue's will. Everything that happens is a benefit for Rey. She outflies Han Solo, she outduels Kylo and so forth. You have to call a spade a spade. Rey is, by all means, a Mary Sue by the definition.

[@jennyraylen8410]

You're absolutely correct. The only thing I'd like to add is that I think TLJ *almost* succeeded in making Rey at least marginally interesting. The only thing that made Rey really interesting was who her parents were, that's tragically how TFA set her up instead of giving her a real personality. So TLJ turned that on its head and said "She's a nobody. She needs to forge her own identity. She doesn't get an easy answer and will have to actually be her own character now." And then TROS threw that away by attributing everything about her to Palpatine. Rey gets her easy answer ("I'm powerful because I'm a Palpatine") and instead of forging her own identity she takes the name "Skywalker" which she never earned. The Skywalkers are dead and she's still alone on a desert planet lying about her parents, the same way she started the trilogy. The irony is that Kylo Ren really should have been the main character of this trilogy. He has depth, intrigue, and is an actual fucking Skywalker (you know, the family this saga is supposed to be about).

[@Nutsa]

yes.

[@generalmisery]

It's the highest beings in the galaxy telling the story of the chosen one (which is actually Anakin/Vader). Kylo should have been the main story and he should have replaced Luke after trying to follow Vader. Instead we got a perfect person doing everything without consequences and pretending to be Luke.

[@fduranthesee]

Agreed. It’s funny how a Solo is more Skywalker than the “Skywalker.”

[@jennyraylen8410]

@@fduranthesee His mom is Leia, he's 100% a Skywalker. The last name is irrelevant. Edit: but yes I agree lol

[@logicaldude3611]

The disappointing thing is that no characters in the trilogy have an arc at all. Kylo Ren turns good, sure, but why? Because his mom Skype calls him and he just decides to turn good again? Hux is really a spy, but it's obvious there was no hinting at that and they just threw it in there for cheap laughs in the last movie. No arcs, just stagnant characters whose motivations are extremely unclear. And yes, it is extremely ironic that Rey ends up pretty much right where she started.

[@wilhelmtheconquerer6214]

Here's an idea, Hollywood: Write a script with genderless characters, all with definitive, easily destinguishable character traits from one another, THEN assign them names, genders, etc. Only exception might be if they have to perform a gender-specific action, I guess

[@rjfrost7090]

They'll take that gender-specific action thing and go a mile with it.

[@stephw1702]

Have heard that was how Ridley Scott wrote the original Alien film.

[@okay5573]

Arcane did this beautifully

[@jaschabull2365]

Didn't Alien do that? Maybe it might be a good idea to try that again.

[@nolanlong1979]

How they already knew what characters they were working with

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

I just genuinely feel bad for Daisy Ridley. The writers gave her nothing to work with and yet she did everything she could. They did her so dirty.

[@lilj9331]

Haven’t watched the video but people only hate rey because of the writing or because she took the name skywalker

[@iamfriendly6483]

@@lilj9331 yeah, that is mostly the problem with her character, I don't think it is because of her personality but it is because of her writing and lack of character dev

[@cw9719]

I don’t she’s a feminist

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

And what does that have to do with anything?

[@afriendlycadian9857]

Mostly however I have heard from others that she agreed with some of her character ha ing no weaknesses or something of that line

[@ptr8954]

Just got here. Lov your voice, how you put down your words, the sluggishness n good analytic tools. I keep comeing back. Cheerio!

[@elinoirsmythe224]

I'm in two minds about Daisy Ridley. On the one hand she doesn't seem to have a lot of range or charisma as an actress, but on the other hand it sounds like she had pretty much nothing to work with. I feel like, if they'd hired a more experienced actress to play her, Rey might have been more likeable, but that doesn't solve the glaring issues of writing so I don't know if it would make a lot of difference to the overall quality of the movie.

[@sultanzod6720]

I'll go with the latter. Ewan McGregor had bad lines as obi wan, some good and memeable but he pulled it off because he's a great actor and made it iconic. Disney had no writing talent when it comes to starwars

[@JoeSpringer97]

I think it can be blamed on the writing too. Actors like Morgan Freeman can't save a terrible script.

[@soundwavesuperior28]

@@sultanzod6720 it’s a mix of both. While I absolutely cannot take Kylo Ren seriously whenever I see that massive schlong of a nose that Adam Driver has, he’s a much better actor than Daisy Ridley, and seems to have been the best of an absolute train wreck of a movie. Fans don’t like him because Kylo Ren was well written, or because Adam Driver did a particularly great job, just because his job was serviceable & that was the best Disney could produce. Daisy is not Haden Christensen. Haden Christensen could shine in certain moments, and actually sold the part of a socially inept Padawan much, much too well in Episode II, and that’s why his convincing performance was hard to watch. However, even in scenes when he’s alone, or with Palpatine, he especially shines. As well as that “I hate you”. Haden Christensen was relatively humble about the backlash he got from the two films. Daisy Ridley called her critics sexist. That alone highlights how Daisy Ridley was not exactly a very self aware individual; she likely thought her character was good for a long period of time, until it was evident that if she subtly starts to show less & less affection & attachment to her pathetic performance of her pathetic character, her career would likely suffer less.

[@gregorysaugustine5236]

Have you seen her in the Murder on The Orient express? Will your opinion the same as before?

[@sunshineleith5556]

@@soundwavesuperior28 he had the emotions put into his lines, but yeah his hair was bad...

[@dangerdash4393]

My issues with Rey, apart from her handling, is that she does have flaws and faults. *BUT* They're just there. They don't really play into anything, they're just there. She's impulsive and easy to anger, but this never leads to any sort of consequence for her or those she's involved with.

[@lawrencesmeaton6930]

Exactly, and because there are no consequences she's never forced to grow or change. Compare Luke at the end of his three films to Rey at the end of hers. Luke is an almost different character, still an idealist and optimist but with maturity and leadership and who really does look like a role model to those around him compared to the snotty kid he was in the first film. Compare and contrast with Rey.

[@krishnarjunar2724]

@@lawrencesmeaton6930 Rey is not even 1% of Ahsoka

[@rienjen]

There's a great video from Literature Devil that talks about how the "Mary Sue" character can still have flaws, but the point is--as you've expressed it--the flaws are inconsequential and therefore meaningless. If the flaws don't cause the character to reflect, change and grow, then they don't matter in the hero's journey.

[@ImDoneArguingOnYTComments]

@@krishnarjunar2724 Ahsoka is just too much for Disney. Try comparing Rey with Jyn Erso. At the begining of the story Jyn tries to run away from the imperials AND THE REBELION even though the rebelion saved her from a imperial camp. At the end, she sacrifices herself for the rebelion. Rey starts off as an alone scavenger. Rey ends her story as jedi. No character development. She just learned about the force and met some people on her journey which is totally normal. Jyn made some friends while having a character development. Luke both made friends and both learned about the force while also having a character development.

[@krishnarjunar2724]

@@ImDoneArguingOnYTComments Luke had the toughest journey. Learning the terrible truth that the most powerful and evil man in the galaxy is his father. The temptation from both his Jedi masters to kill his father who is lost forever, which is what the emperor wants, but Luke proves them all wrong in a way and saved his father who in turn saved his son and sacrificed for him. The story of a true hero through struggles, consequences and pain. Luke Skywalker is a perfect example of a great character.

[@truthisfree7297]

I think you are spot on with the idea that so many of these female characters are effectively written as idealized males, except that they also hyper exaggerate these qualities, add in everything we think of as extreme female talents and then to top it off - the writers eliminate any negative character traits. In the end, these super-females cannot be related to by anyone.

[@Imlaor25]

Yes, I basically see the Mary Sue bossgirls as female Steven Segals.

[@jamesrobinson2086]

Simple: She's not a character, she's a caricature. She has no Heroes Journey, she starts off able to do things for no other reason then the story requires it. The further the story progresses, the higher the story requires her power levels to progress.... but never to the detriment of plot or progression... because there *IS* none of either. Meanwhile every relevant male role in the story is deconstructed and reduced to background inconsequentiality or buffoonery.

[@gdredd9587]

Ok but how long has this been happened to women characters? Being reduced to the background or being some sex object? Males got a glance into what women have dealt with for years. Was it right? No. It could have been done better. Welcome to a woman’s experience

[@jamesrobinson2086]

@@gdredd9587 oh bullshit... name ANY decent movie that focuses on a male protagonist, and they all follow a progression that gives you "who, what, when, where and why".... always..(notice I said 'decent').. Rey existed because the story needed a character all the other characters could revolve around and support, with none of it justified or developed.. it just happens. The exact same thing can be said for literally dozens of really fun films that had a female lead... SW just didn't give a damn and put message and agenda over actual story or property history ... "I bypassed the compressor"... what the fuck ?

[@rapatacush3]

@@gdredd9587 they wont had a glance of my money if they keep pulling shit like that.

[@Yxalitis]

@@gdredd9587 And so its OK to do the opposite?; If people of typw A mistreat people of type B, the best response is NOT to demonstrate Type B mistreating Type A, that;s a cyclical path tha leads nowhere, We HAD Strong female 'background' characters like...ummm...what's her name? Oh yeah LEIA! "Women's experience: Right...are you an oppressed and subjugated woman living in Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia, or a dozen other places where REAL female mistreatment exists, or are you upset because a male once told you your arse looks nice. Get some fucking perspective.

[@FinanceMan]

@@gdredd9587 not the case with well written movies. Ya know like the original Star Wars that made Leah one of the most iconic women ever? Get off your high horse.

[@jamiemiller1482]

Also Luke evolved he grew as a person, he became wiser, less reckless, Rey was just the same in every movie

[@TheTendermen]

You can tell with just the costumes: Luke, his changed every movie, from white to more grey tone, to full on black. Signifying his growth and his draw to the darkside. Rey hasn't changed her clothing since she was a child, except maybe once at the end of the Last Jedi, but then immediately changed back by the start of the last movie.

[@Duckduck8000]

Same with anakin

[@joimumu]

Movie 7,8 and 9 all happened within the same 48 hours the movies 1-6 was months and even years apart so the characters had time to grow

[@BossDoogles]

Absolutely spot on with the fact that she faces no consequences. And The difference between Luke and Rey is that Luke spends two movies being rescued by his friends and allies. Rey does all the saving. You can go Scene by scene and it’s almost exact opposites. Luke is being rescued while Rey is rescuing.

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

Aye I think the thing that makes Luke tick is that we get the impression he is a guy who is both honourable and cares deeply for the people in his life. He absolutely refuses to go on the quest because despite his complaints, he loves his adoptive parents and only their death makes him move on. Likewise the same traits that make him fantastic in a new hope are his downfall in the following movie. But we understand why he does it and he’s ultimately helped in his times of dire need. Even when he’s fighting the Emperor, the stakes are highly personal to him despite being tiny in the greater conflict. Issue with Rey is she’s a very insular character who doesn’t seem to care about the people around her. Luke is important to her because he can help her, but she rarely goes out of her way to seek out Finn or any member of the cast. E.g. she doesn’t rescue Chewie in ep 9 but wanders into Kylos vault instead. Likewise, she is never helped by anyone either, the only time she doesn’t explicitly save herself in my mind is when Leia kills her self to reach out to Kylo. So, she feels divorced from the narrative in a way I don’t feel strongly about, yet is so critical that the war would be lost without her.

[@BadassDwarff]

Luke got rescued in all 3 movies. First by Han then by Leia and lastly by Vader.

[@BossDoogles]

@@BadassDwarff yes Vader does technically save Luke but in ROTJ, Luke is in Control of almost all his situations. He is no longer helpless and in need of rescuing. On the Death Star Luke didn’t NEED rescuing. He wasn’t in that situation because of incompetence. He went to save his father knowing it most likely was a death sentence and he went on his own free will. Luke spends the previous movies learning how to be this way. That’s what I mean by my previous comments.

[@BadassDwarff]

@@BossDoogles I didn't try to disprove your point. Just add to your comment that Luke is far from an overpowered character.

[@trianglemoebius]

To be clear, this isn't a disagreement - I'm also backing up your point. Luke's a person with a rather mediocre grasp of the Force for most of the OT. Being able to use it at all puts him above most average people, and he does manage to pull victories over them using fairly minor Force abilities, but the second he's fighting someone who actually knows how to use The Force, he takes a massive L. Heck, it doesn't even always work on non-Force opponents, and you see there are situations where his - again rather medicore - grasp on it isn't enough to change the odds (eg, Hoth). Luke's power is his near-infinite faith in others, and that's a big part of why "cynical old man Luke" feels so wrong. Luke is endlessly dedicated and positive, able to inspire those around him with such. Which, first off, makes any time his positivity begins to falter a massive, dramatic "oh shit" moment, but secondly: people reciprocate. Luke's primary means of winning isn't necessarily being better than other people, it's having so much faith that others cannot help but rise to the challenge when he needs them. Think of how many times Luke gets bailed out of situations. He'd have died in the Death Star Trench if not for Han, he'd have died on Bespin if not for Leia, and he'd have died above Endor if not for Anakin/Vader. Because Luke is *not* good at everything, but he's a damn fine leader, and it shows.

[@Helfirehydratrans]

Ray feels more like a plot point than a character in the movie like when a zombie apocalypse movie or show puts in a character just for them to be killed off so the lead character can have an emotional journey of acceptance Ray just feels like a side character but she’s the main character

[@LilacMonarch]

She feels like the custom character you play in a game, with no defining qualities so that anyone can fit in. But at least with the custom characters, they can wear your ridiculous outfits in the cutscenes.

[@LeeEverett1]

It's really simple: The audience likes characters that they can relate to, an 'underdog' if you will that fights the system and has to endure tough struggles before becoming victorious. It's boring af when you write a character that's already strong and flawless because we can't relate to that as human beings, it's way more interesting to see how they got that powerful; not a story OF them already being powerful and wiping the floor with everyone. This only works with antonagists to remind the audience that they are a threat, it rarely ever connects properly when it's the protagonist doing all the asskicking.

[@charlescourtwright2229]

Unless its Saitama, but he's an exception

[@Eclypsia13]

@@charlescourtwright2229 The thing there though is with Saitama, all of his issues to overcome are things that he cant just punch, be it lack of meaning and challenge, beaurcracy and social stigma or mosquitos. Which even without godlike punch powers are things people can relate to.

[@charlescourtwright2229]

@@Eclypsia13 Yeah, Saitama is the story of, I'm now the strongest, what the fuck do I do?

[@j.a.hernandez9742]

The main character doesn't need to be an underdog though, they just have to have a character arch where they struggle to overcome something, and that in itself is relatable.

[@badideagenerator2315]

Probably why stormtroopers aren't perceived as threatening anymore, since in rogue one, the mandalorian and the sequel trilogy they're constantly getting mowed down by the protagonists and can't hit the broadside of a barn. They're meant to be the special forces of the empire, but they keep getting portrayed as incompetent cannonfodder.

[@zzickos]

I mean, we are getting more and more of this stuff. Bland flawless female characters, whether they are protagonists, side characters or antagonists. For example, Karli from Falcon and winter soldier is straight up evil and show portrays her as confused person trying to do what's right. She killed bunch of innocent people and gets sympathy from our protagonist, that's really sad. What's more sad is that "critics" buy this whole narrative and present it as truth, which leads to more and more people buying into this stuff. Which is why I love stuff like this, well edited, well argumented and presented, no word salads. Also, I miss female characters like Beatrix Kiddo, Sarah Connor, Jackie Brown, Ripley.

[@randombjorksong]

dang way to make a brief list of fetishized female characters as your list of "things you want"

[@randombjorksong]

also, beatrix*

[@zzickos]

@@randombjorksong Beatrix, correct, my mistake. Also what do you mean by "fetishized"? I literally pulled them out my ass in a second as example for flawed strong female characters.

[@jameswatsonatheistgamer]

@@zzickos Didn't you know feminists are perfect. They are an all-round can do anything superhero.

[@superexclusive452]

The point of Karli is that people never start out evil, but are led down an antagonistic path due to outside forces (in her case the government) creating what she inevitably turned out to be. Which is literally what almost every tragic character turned villain can be described as. Take for instance, Eren Yeager

[@ohkaygoplay]

The sequels actually helped me. They showed me how not to structure a story and characters. I took notes on what I saw, what confused me, how I felt, how and where I was disappointed or wow'd, what moved me, what didn't ect. I took those notes back to my own soft sci-fi novel where some of those points pinged in my head and re read it with new eyes. Thanks to those movies, I was able to see where I'd been unknowingly making the same mistakes, and fixed them. (I've been a Star Wars fan since the womb.)

[@sagittariusaquarius5033]

Hey, out of curiosity, has your book been published?

[@FelixzWrath82]

Dooku went through more in ten minutes of Tales of the Jedi than Rey did in 3 movies.

[@parthkapadia4948]

The whole business with Leia and Jabba I think contribues to Leia being a good character and role model. The people who oversexualize and objectify women are shown to be obese, repulsive slug-things, whereas she hated her position, so she took a stand against it, killing Jabba. I promise you, there is a clip of Carrie Fisher saying the exact same thing as I just did.

[@anthonymcrooster3703]

Some people were either too mesmerized or triggered by Leia wearing a bikini, that they all didn't even notice when Leia killed Jabba while wearing that.

[@gonnahurtify]

@@anthonymcrooster3703 She is beautiful, but her strangling that fat slug was the best part! lol

[@svargyle]

This! People lately complain about the metal bikini, but it fits with the story very well, and it also fits within the concept of personal danger. She knew that if she were caught trying to rescue Han that something like that could happen. Thinks went bad and there were consequences. It's a shame these days that many people just come to the conclusion that since she was put in a bikini, that it was somehow objectivation. It's not objectivation, it's good story telling.

[@parthkapadia4948]

@@renmcmanus By 'he' you mean Jabba, right?

[@parthkapadia4948]

@@renmcmanus Yeah but having been forced against her will to be humiliated by Jabba, it makes her killing him so much more satisfying.

[@Padamame]

Aight. Rey is just disliked because of the way they wrote her.. We didn't see the proper character development that we wanted like we saw with Luke. And you can't argue Luke never lost a battle, he technically did in ROTJ with the Emperor, the only reason he lives through it was because Darth Vader saved him and the character development George Lucas gave us throughout those three movies was beyond incredible. The Sequels felt rushed, thats why a lot of people hate them. Rey could be an AMAZING character if she wasn't created from rushed and lazy writing. Came from the same writers that made Poe say "SOMEHOW Palpatine returned." Like they're not going to explain it. Simple reason, bad writers. I want to like Rey but its SO HARD TO. Plus the writing where she never had to pay big consequences for her actions. Every time she does something STUPID she doesn't get punished for it. With Rey its just like.. "Oh I made this mistake, oh well it doesnt matter. I have the most massive set of plot armor that not only shields me physically, but also mentally!" Where as Luke let his emotions get the better of him in ROTJ, and lashed out on Vader because he was so angry. He then hated himself for what he did so much that he threw his saber away, and refused to fight. Because of his mistake he ultimately lost the battle with Palpatine and only lived because his Father saved him. Did we see anything like this with Rey? No. She'd do something horrible, and then just magically fixes it so now theres nothing stopping her. "Well why NOT do it if I can magically fix it in two seconds?"

[@EskChan19]

And what do you mean by "technically" Luke lost a battle. He straight up got his hand cut of and dominated by Vader in Empire Strikes Back. He loses to Palpatie, and he loses to Vader untill he gives in to his anger so even beating Vader in RotJ was a 'loss' in a way. He even gets shot down in his snowspeeder. Luke loses all the time. I'd go as far as to say that the only two times in all of the classic trilogy he outright won was by destroying the Death Star and by turning his father back to the light side. Rey always wins, and the few times she doesn't outright win, that's later justified by showing that it was actually a GOOD thing she lost. She lost to Ren the first fight in Force Awakens? Well but that was good because that way she got into the enemies base, freed herself and sabotaged it so that ONLY because she lost the rebels could win. Same with The Last Jedi. Sure she was captured and brought towards the bad guy. But only because of that did the bad guy die, his big ship blow up, an enemy general get killed, and the day saved. Yes she didn't technically win but only because she lost did everyone win in the end.

[@Padamame]

@@EskChan19 Fair enough lol

[@j.rivera6402]

Ya don’t say? Lol

[@phecto]

Luke also lost against the sand raiders first thing and gets rescued, then they go to a cantina and he almost immediately gets in a losing fight and has to get rescued. Goes to rescue a princess and princess has to get all of them out of being trapped in a prison. Then he gets grabbed by a tentacle and is being drowned in the trash and has to get rescued. Then being crushed in the trash again has to get rescued. Then at the end he has to get help from a force ghost to use the force and destroy the death star and even that's not enough, Han and Chewie have to show up and rescue him from Vader so he even gets the chance to make that shot. That's just the first movie and Luke spends most of it having someone else bail him out. He gets saved at the beginning of empire, goes to find Yoda and crashes his ship and even after training Yoda has to bail him out so he has a ship to use so he can run off to save people and instead gets trounced by Vader and then has to be rescued again. Even the few times he wins he ends up needing plenty of help, and that's with lots of training.

[@metagreen1931]

Luke loses everything in a new hope. He loses his home, his family and his mentor. Luke has personal stakes in the conflict, a clear path for his character to progress down (whiny teen to wise jedi), and clear motivation from start to finish. Rey on the other hand, is swept up and joins in without losing anything, has no personal stake in the plot, doesn't really progress as a character (aside from not knowing the force to knowing the force, missing the whole gaining wisdom of Luke's arc), and seems like she's kinda just doing things.

[@COOLSAUCE21]

The biggest issue with Rey and the sequels is how it goes against what star wars has established. Like.. it takes a little time and a master to learn how to use the Force. Yet Rey uses a Jedi mind trick, which no one taught her. Being calm and soft natured isn't "feminine", it's Jedi (like Kenobi, Yoda or Leia). Whereas anger, ambition, physicality isn't "masculine".. it's the path to the dark side 🤦‍♀️. Our other protagonists had such issues too, but Anakin turned to the dark side and Luke eventually changed. Rey... Upto the very end fights with anger, but never ends up turning to the dark side. And then, there's copying so many elements of the OT. Super weapons to destroy planets, a strong force sensitive on a desert planet, a conflicted villian who turns good. A mentor (Obi Wan / Han), who gets killed by the villian in the first movie. A legendary Jedi master on a desolate planet in the second (Yoda / Luke). Palpatine trying to get the protagonist to join the dark side, while the villian (Vader / Kylo Ren) turns to the light side instead. While the OT had a proper storyline between it all, the sequels felt like a rip off, with no believable reason for a bunch of things. And.. if strong females are what they wanted, they could have done way more with Leia and captain phasma.

[@knytrydr73]

"...with no believable reason for a bunch of things." You mean like that stupid knife?

[@DatDude0925]

The way they disrespected Captain Phasma goes to show you what they really think about “strong female characters.”

[@thebigD2934]

Rey is literally the definition of a Mary Sue in literature. She is overpowered with almost no weaknesses, everyone loves her immediately after they meet her and she's just terribly written.

[@leonixnn]

Nice to hear a girl's voice once in a while. Not to be sexist or anything. Actually, you're like a strong female character yourself: savvy without the exception of softness. Keep the good stuff going!

[@eartht0ast755]

This might be the funniest comment I've ever had to read

[@Himmiefan]

Unless she's under 18, she's a woman.

[@360Roko]

Simp detected

[@360Roko]

@@leonixnn Comment auto removed. My vocabulary is extremely limited.

[@360Roko]

@@leonixnn You're like the end product of communists killing all aesthetically pleasing people in USSR for 60 years straight. Absolute bugman.

[@hairglowingkyle4572]

JJ Abrams: "We thought there might be a kid out there who doesn't have a clue who Luke Skywalker is." Also JJ Abrams: *Doesn't know Ahsoka Tano exists*

[@1Flagwaver]

My problem with Rey is that she didn't have to work for anything. She didn't lose anyone when she got BB-8 (like Luke did). She immediately became the copilot of the Falcon the moment they escaped from the bounty hunters. Han Solo immediately offered her a position in the ship. She found the lightsaber without even looking for it. She was an expert marksman with a blaster the second time she fired it. She didn't get tortured by Kylo Ren when he interrogated her and somehow turned the tables on him. She flawlessly used Mind Trick on the stormtrooper. She escaped the base without any effort. She learned how to lightsaber fight by closing her eyes for a couple seconds. It was all handed to her with no sacrifice. And that was just the first movie.

[@kaygee2121]

1. Her whole childhood was a struggle. 2. Apparently, being a pilot in the SW galaxy is the equivalent of having your driver's license here. Luke was a pilot too...but why? Anakin was an amazing pilot, at NINE. So...eh. 3. He offered her a position because she knew her stuff. That's what growing up a scavenger will do. 4. JJ Abrams literal mystery box. Can't argue with how she found the saber. 5. I hit a target the second time I fired a gun. So? Women are actually pretty damn good at shooting, statistically. 6. She didn't get tortured because Kylo was instantly infatuated with her. Who is this, why does she have the force, where'd she come from, and how does she relate to all this? He tortured Poe because he knew he was working with the resistance. 7. I kinda agree with you about the mind trick, though this is supposedly explained in the book, that when Kylo got into her head, they somehow swapped info, and she now knew some of his abilities. The whole DYAD thing. But that seems like a mega stretch imo. 8. She swapped out one stick for another stick. Not hard. She grew up defending herself with a staff since she was a small child. She knew how to fight already. She just tapped into the force to give herself the confidence she needed to beat Kylo (because I don't really see any use of force powers after that, except for maybe strength)

[@ArmyWolves]

I mean even Superman has kryptonite and was unable to save his father from cancer

[@theafterlife474]

​@@kaygee2121 I can agree to an extent with some points (mainly parts of 1, partially 3, and 6) but the rest don't stick too correctly with me. I see what you mean with your first point but I think the original comment was elduing to everything we see happen in the movies, she worked for none of her abilities and faced no tragedy. Point 2, you used Luke and Anakin as examples, when it is previously stated that Luke flew his own T-18 to shoot wampa rats, and Anakin's abilities come from him growing up building and selling ship parts and slavery (as well as being the chosen one of course). Point 5 doesn't really discredit the original comment, it wasn't that she started to get the hang of it, she immediately became an expert marksman against trained first order troops (they are stormtroopers so its a grain of salt thing but still), Point 8 is the one I absolutely cannot agree with. Kylo Ren was trained by Luke Skywalker, and was born into the family tree of the chosen one. Rey, while yes did grow up fighting, fought with a *staff*. A staff is a two-handed weapon that you can rest against your body without risk of harm. She was fighting with a lightsaber, a small hilt with a plasma blade that would immediately leave burns and could go through any part of her body without fail. The staff fighting experience would be beneficial, but it still doesn't justify her defeating Kylo on Starkiller Base.

[@MomoTheDisciple]

@@kaygee2121 ya keep trying to defend this garbage inconsistency when it makes no sense in the established universe. Even the most power force users we’ve seen in the series needed training until Rey. She is able to use all her powers and win all her duels with no training and within hours of learning the Force even exists. She literally makes every other Force user in every other movie look incompetent and weak because she does more than they ever did and she never had to train or earn her power. Fuck Disney Star Wars

[@north-roadcaveman5818]

Here's a problem I noticed with the whole Luke v Rey thing, you touched on it for a second. It's what I like to call the "whiny little bitch" phase, where they have this Adventure thrust on them and they don't want any part of it. With Luke, that phase ended almost right away with one of his most famous lines, he was like no, I can't leave, then he went back and saw his aunt and uncle dead, came back and said "I wanna go with you to alderaan, and learn the ways of the force and become a jedi like my father" from that moment on his attitude changes to, basically, "it's on" Meanwhile halfway through the first sequel, Rey's still like, no, fuck you, I'm leaving, they'll come back.. blehh

[@darthdavid2275]

Anakin was strong and still fell to the dark side, luke had lots of good genuine training from Ben and yoda and yet he still lost to the emperor. And then Rey has 0 real training, and never loses lol

[@bamantioindrahidayat1165]

That's why we call it a Mary Sue character

[@Nathanct43]

She lost 3 times as far as I'm concerned

[@thorthewolf8801]

@@Nathanct43 even her losses serve her character. She was captured and a group is on its way to rescue her? She doesnt need anybody, she rescues herself, she is that strong.

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

@@bamantioindrahidayat1165 And then some wonder why everyone prefer losers who in reality deserve something better

[@bamantioindrahidayat1165]

@@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722 well it's part of human perspective But what i see Ray in the sequal is something different,more like Ray don't have any weaknesses and able to do something beyond her knowledge yet still many people describe her ass strong wahmen But considering back to og and the prequel didn't George portray some strong women with good reason

[@whatsawhizzerwebnovels4927]

Mary Sue goes beyond "being perfect" though. It's being better than everyone else at everything. It's being loved by everyone you meet and everyone telling you how special you are. The fact she kinda maybe tied, although obviously didn't because she recovered faster and escaped from enemy territory unaided, doesn't negate she's a complete Mary Sue.

[@MotorcycleCheetah]

Good point, cause there was a character in The 9th Episode who just flat out said “I like her”.

[@Justmonika6969]

Another aspect of Mary Sue's that she mentioned was that she doesn't suffer the consequences of her actions. She has no consequences. She also mentioned that she could be a self insert for one of the writers. That's also a Mary Sue trait. Rey has Mary Sue written all over her.

[@sandrakatze2409]

Well, Rey was loved/liked by everyone. Leia practically became her adoptive mother, Han wanted her to be his copilot, Chewy became her friend. Finn and Poe like her (as probably the whole resistance does). Kylo Ren/Ben Solo seems to be so fascinated and enamored by her from the very first time he meets her, that he is practically obsessed by her. Hell, even Yoda as a force ghost speaks more positively about her than he ever has to Luke. The only one who doesn't like her on sight is Luke. But even that is a typical Mary Sue trope, as there might be someone who doesn't like the Mary Sue at first, but comes to like and respect her later on. When she met Luke's force ghost in the last movie, he suddenly seemed to like her better.

[@garysmith3037]

Luke found people who didn't like him in the first bar he enters, lol.

[@Gr3nadgr3gory]

@@sandrakatze2409 I hate that trope anyways, I prefer protagonists that butt heads with their supporting cast.

[@Garinovitch]

When it comes to Leia and the infamous golden bikini, I will say that at least it's something Carrie Fisher request, and in my perspective, while it was objectifying as she was made into a slave for a while, she turns it around and KILL the person that enslaved her to begin with, choking him to death with the very chains that bound her, now thats BADASS if you ask me.

[@jacobb5484]

The real problem with the golden bikini was it’s prevalence in marketing and merchandising.

[@hariman7727]

I agree. The gold bikini is a flex by Jabba, but his arrogance at not leaving Leia in a cell gets him killed because her spirit was never broken.

[@WatchVidsMakeLists]

Carrie Fisher requested to wear more interesting outfits, she did not request specifically a golden bikini and actually thought it was a bad joke when she was first shown the costume.

[@cerxusinvellum2289]

@@jacobb5484 for good reason she looks hot in it

[@someundeadtalent2016]

@@cerxusinvellum2289 ah yes, using a woman‘s body to gain marker value :)

[@funtimefreddy4204]

You make a good point about Rey never suffering for her bad actions, but take a look at Luke vs Rey in terms of their character growth: Luke’s force sensitivity for the torpedo on The Death Star was the Will of the force, and yeah is a Gary sue problem, but everything after? Luke, after 8-10 weeks of intense training with Yoda on Dagobah barely lasts long enough against Vader before he easily chops his hand off. After another YEAR of training, Luke is only able to defeat Vader after tapping into the dark side, and gets wrecked by Palpatine. Rey? Beats Kylo Ren first try after never knowing what The Force is until like a day before going against Ben, has ONE LESSON with Luke and is stupidly powerful, absolutely wrecks the Praetorian Guards, has a force-off with Kylo, Lifts 30x more rocks than Luke was able to after weeks, knows how to fucking FORCE HEAL, beats him AGAIN on the Second Death Star wreckage, and beats Palpatine, all while doing this relatively low effort. Rey is so overpowered it’s not even funny compared to Luke, and never grows. I hate her.

[@Axterix13]

Luke's sensitivity for the Death Star torpedo isn't a Gary Stu problem, though. The movie takes the time to set the gun on the mantle piece, with Obi Wan training Luke to do exactly that sort of thing. It's the only Force related thing Luke does, and he was explicitly trained it. Also, this was the first movie, so it had the freedom to establish the rules. The Force Awakens was a movie in an established franchise, so has to play within the pre-established rules, or else provide a solid reason why it isn't. It doesn't do either. And that's an issue. Because, ultimately, what matters is if a character takes enough people out of the movie, that they are no longer along for the ride.

[@ArcNeoMasato]

100%, the biggest definition that holds water with a Mary Sue is a lack of consequences. Even most MS's have "flaws", but they're always flaws without consequence. Also, no, Rey WASN'T always trying to do the right thing. She spent most of that first movie just trying to go back to her sand dune so she could wait for her family. That's also what makes her wanting her family a weakness, cause she literally kept trying to walk away FROM the right thing, just to go sit around and wait for family. Also, I still find it incredibly funny that people want to call "Mary Sue" a sexist term, when it's literally the name of a character in a Star Trek fanfic from YEARS ago, that was written by a woman, created specifically to point out that type of bad character writing. Like.... a woman created the term in order to give a name TO this trope, that seems like..... a woman holding a high influence, doesn't it?

[@Shintigercurl]

a friend of mine told me to stop using "mary sue" because it's being used as a sexist term. i'm a writer, both of fanfiction and published works. i've written mary sues before when i was young and dumb and i know what the term means. i don't care who used it for what. i'm using it as it was originally intended. so i told him i would keep using it and didn't care what punks online were using it for it. if i see a mary sue or gary stu, i would call it what it is.

[@VirginStarrrrr]

Its even funnier considering that there's Gary stues that exist. Which are unironically just male Mary sues.

[@dryfox11]

“They didn’t need to be rewritten, then just needed to be written more about” Couldn’t have put it better myself, this quote needs to slap every disney writer in the face 20 times over

[@DisturbedGeneration]

This video pointed something out for me. Even when Drax the Destroyer is just standing there, emotionless, eating chips, silent. He still has more expression, more character, more charm, and more stature than Rey😂 Edit: it's not Daisy's acting, it's just the writing, the story. How it was twisted by two directors basically having a spat through our beloved franchise.

[@the_epileptic_gamer1190]

I think if Abrams had control the entire trilogy it could've been better. 7 wasn't bad. It went downhill at 8

[@RockStationForChrist]

@@the_epileptic_gamer1190 I think 8 was a good continuation, 9 is the one that feels that a disheveled mess. Regardless, I do agree that the writing team should've been consistent for the whole trilogy. I would've loved an episode 9 that was a faithful continuation of 8 the way 8 was of 7.

[@hariman7727]

Leonard Nimoy put more character into one raised eyebrow than Rey has in the entire trilogy.

[@Alexisme.]

Yeah daisy is an incredible actress

[@MuljoStpho]

@@RockStationForChrist My two cents: 7 set up a lot of potential for the next two to explore. 8 pushed most of that potential into the dumpster and lit it on fire. 9 said "okay, how the **** can we try to salvage a decent finale out of what this has become?" and tried to fill in double duty covering two movies worth of plot development in one movie. (And 9 needed to course correct and move forward all while also navigating what to do with Leia in the script since Carrie Fisher had passed and they just had some random bits of 7 and 8's unused footage of her to try to write a few scenes around.)

[@KaletheQuick]

First, Leia was the first named character to kill in the whole franchise. Like, she straight up shoots a trooper, then tries to reposition for a second shot. Then plays it all off straight to Vader's face. Absolute legend. Second, the parallels with Luke's story make the mary-sue-ness even more apparent. Mary Sue in the original parody was a new Enterprise crew member inserted into the bridge crew, but not a wholesale reskin. What rey did would be like removing Bones, having your own OC (do not steal) replace the ships doctor, acting exactly like the old doctor, but instead of Spock being a counterpoint it's just "I'm a doctor not a diplomat!" "I'm a doctor not a bomb diffuser!" "I'm a doctor not a warp engineer" and spock just saying "But you are the best, it's logical." Then Old bones showing up in act two in a mobile death bed labeled "One beep for yes, two for no, three for 'You are a better doctor than I ever could have been I'm so proud of you and promoting you to captain." BEEP BEEP BEEP :|

[@kaygee2121]

Leia was obviously put in the movie just to prop Luke up, thus why she kisses him on the cheek before he swings to save her from the empire. That's why she keeps kissing BOTH the leading dudes. That's why she comforts a super sad Luke after Ben dies, despite the fact that her home planet just disappeared. Hmm. THANKFULLY, George Lucas also made her fierce, and competent, instead of JUST a damsel in distress. Imagine if he hadn't..

[@pnwlady]

Kylo was the richest character because he had a character arch and shows complex emotions like vulnerability. Rey never seems conflicted. Her being unbothered by his death was anticlimactic.

[@alexhayden219]

Kylo's a terrible character and anything liked about him is probably just because Adam Driver is a good actor that did his best with what he was given. Daisy Ridley not getting any other jobs and having said she was done with Rey only to come back a few years later isn't simply because she got type cast.

[@jiggycalzone8585]

​@@alexhayden219 this. In fact I feel bad for Driver because he actually wanted to bring in a lot more to that character than Disney wasnt at all willing to entertain.

[@nicholewilde4750]

*sigh* I had such high hopes for the new trilogy. Especially for Finn. I was hoping he would be the storm trooper who rises to be a Jedi to balance out Anakin who fell to the dark side. Instead they put everything into Ray, who was SO boring. I was really excited about what they could have done with Finn and they wasted such an incredible opportunity with his story. Sad

[@Swiftbow]

In hindsight, Finn's character was ruined in the very movie they introduced him in. By making him the "space janitor" and short-circuiting any guilt he might have had from being a stormtrooper, he lost any and all pathos he should have had. So all that was left was "Woo hoo" and "Where's Rey?!"

[@robebert6434]

The only way to make a character like Finn good make him the Jedi. Otherwise he’s a crap bystander character with no real story either. Rey should have died and had Kyle Ren live to be redeemed. That would make the better options.

[@cablethelarryguy5811]

The origin for Finn was so good, and it really ticks me off how they wasted such a good opportunity for a character.

[@vampycaltm5273]

Nah Finn should have been a FO general that defected to Luke's Jedi academy when he learns he is force sensitive and is Mace's (Snoke's true identity) son. Snoke is trying to wipe out the Jedi as their grandmaster is Anakin and Vader's son Luke who runs a Jedi Academy of which Kylo, Finn and Rey are students. Rey has more talent despite working less and has a better relationship with Han because she's a mechanic so Kylo turns to Snoke who corrupts him under the guise of an old librarian Jedi and after he destroys the temple Luke defeats Kylo but can't kill him so he escapes and joins the first order. Kylo kills Han who offers him 1 last chance to turn back during his escape to Snoke. Finn is intensely trained by Luke directly during the movie over the course of a year, noone else is trained this way as Finn is too old to work at normal pace which further infuriates Kylo. Luke begins to train Rey but she rushes off to avenge her uncle and mentor Han when Finn tells her of the FO base location, Kylo kicks her ass using Vaapad to turn her anger against her and shatterpoint to find her weaknesses and she barely escapes. Finn completes his training and they catch up to Rey at the base and Finn and Luke fight Snoke, revelations happen, Snoke dies, Finn's arc is complete. Luke then dies saving Rey from Kylo and then Finn helps her escape as Kylo is too powerful for him now (even if he could counter the techniques the power gap is too vast). Rey is trained by Finn and Leia in a rebuilding Jedi academy to fight and redeem her evil Skywalker counterpart in Kylo using a new BALANCED view of the force that was taught to Finn to counter vaapad and shatterpoint by Luke, Rey's potential force affinity is the only way to beat Kylo who mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint from Snoke. She not only counters but then uses shatterpoint to break Kylo in battle and make him lose the will to fight after besting him physically. Kylo is put in prison and roll credits. Boom, fixed your movie. Vader already balances out Anakin in the saga.

[@luxborealis]

Chinese market probably wouldn’t have accepted a black main character. Finn was literally edited out, shrunk, or lightened in many Asian posters for Star Wars. I am 90% certain that’s why they reduced his prominence versus Rey so much in the two later films, because, well, money.

[@brendankearney3929]

On the topic of the Gold Bikini, I actually really like Jill Bearup's interpretation of it as visual storytelling. At every other point in the series, Leia is always dressed either regally or practically. She's either the fantasy space princess or she's in combat fatigues, and in every instance she is (to one extent or another) in control of the situation. She 100% had her own plan for escaping the Death Star and Luke and Han bumbling in forced her to wing it from there. However, in the one instance where she genuinely is robbed of her agency, she is reduced to the stereotypical oversexualised image. She's not in control of the situation and that is communicated to us via her appearance, and the moment she is back in command, she's back in Rebel ground troop fatigues. While invariably there was an element of young Carrie Fisher being incredibly gorgeous and let's put as much of her on display as possible, it's also very clever visual storytelling as to this normally in command characters current situation

[@EskChan19]

It's also often hailed as a very empowering getup, by woman especially, because it is also a symbol of regaining control. Yes she was put into that outfit by Jabba to be objectified, but at the end of the day that was exactly what led to his downfall. Because Leia used exactly this to her advantage and overcame him by her smarts. The objectified woman making a comeback by using her brains is a very empowering moment, and that outfit also expresses that.

[@grinko1222]

There's no way Leia could have escaped on her own.

[@johannesseyfried7933]

​@@grinko1222 I don't know....I wouldn't put it past her.

[@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit]

@@johannesseyfried7933 I would.

[@Deepstab1]

Yes Leía its super cool love her too...but how can you say she had everything under control and was planning on escaping on her own when she was the one that sent the rescue message to obi wan?

[@Trey_816]

Rey: "rEy sKyWaLkEr" Nute Gunray: "She can't do that! Shoot her... or something!"

[@adscrypt]

I like your analysis, and to add on: I think one of the more fundamental problems with the issue of 'male' and 'female' characterization in our culture is the identification of basic emotions or emotional patterns themselves, such as 'anger' or 'emotional suppression' and 'dominant aggression', as inherently 'male' emotions or phenomena. I've seen plenty of women with extreme or fierce tempers, who suppress their emotions when necessary and do everything they can to dominate whatever spaces they are in, social or otherwise. Physical capacity is one thing, but females very much can and very often do exhibit these emotions we tend to portray or think of as 'traditionally male'.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

I agree. Which is why such characters aren't really am issue for me. That being said, the issue for me is that that is literally the only kind of "strong female character". Like, most women aren't like that, so what about them? I get that it's harder to emulate something like that in high-adrenaline flicks, but there doesn't seem to be much variety.

[@William-the-Guy]

Agreed. Personality traits are not inherently "male" or "female" anyone who thinks they are is missing the point. Sure it may be statistically more likely for one gender to display a trait. There might be more men who display "anger" more often (or maybe not). But even if that's true there will always be PLENTY of women who display anger also. Nobody has a monopoly on certain characteristics. Anyone who thinks they do, still isn't quite getting it.

[@user-is7xs1mr9y]

@@stephenjenkins7971 THIS. I hate that in order to be considered strong and therefore have value, you HAVE to be strong and need no man, when in reality everybody needs a support system. Why not allow female characters to be vulnerable, affraid, have actual difficulties, make mistakes with actual consequences. They end up feeling not like real people, but just perfect emotionless machines. One of my favorite characters is Rocky Balboa, and even though I'm not a man nor a fighter, I can relate to him and his struggles more than I can relate to most female characters in recent years, because he feels more real. This is why I don't get this whole representation thing, but that's another topic.

[@strikeforce1500]

Honestly, Rey (at least in movies, I dont read comics, books, etc) feels kinda like an OC from a teenager fanfiction. "Oh, she is strong, brave, nice, knows how to do (literally) everything even if it was her first time seeing such thing". She doesn't have a struggle at all, Kylo at least had the whole Dark Skde vs Light side thing. Finn and Poe were.. There, I guess. But Rey?, Rey doesn't really have anything super bad on her. Heck, look at Kylo and Rey's duels. Kylo, in cannon, was trained by Luke Skywalker himself, Palpatinen't, and have accustomed to the force for his entire life. Rey had.. What, a week? Two weeks at most?, and already knew how to hypnotized with the force, AND beat kylo ren while using a light saber for the FIRST TIME. What the point of having a rival, if said rival isn't even close to the same level

[@torg2126]

She basically is one, to be honest. She's the Star Wars adaptation of the old Star Trek fanfic character Mary Sue.

[@KermitOfWar]

So, does Rey have a higher midichlorian count than Anakin? Since she swept the floor with Kylo, an actual half Skywalker & she learned faster than a 2 week old puppy, her being an adult, which is harder to train to be a Jedi for, eh, reasons?. It's rubbish how they gave all the spotlight to Rey, but not to Finn or Poe. Since, I thought the big reveal of the movies was that there was a Stormtrooper, being Finn, that was Force sensisitive and that he'd be the one to help Rey destroy Palpatine in the end, but no. We got that trash ending. And now Rey is a Skywalker. Unbelievable. They could've revealed Finn to be a lost son of Han Solo or something. It would have been a clash of half-brothers, & the Mary-Sue.

[@VonJay]

I think it’s just that JJ doesn’t know how to write and freestyles a lot. He must think that writing structure and literary devices are road blocks to creativity, and then invented mystery boxes without ever seeing why those devices work and have existed since Aristotle. Great example is game of thrones. Usually only a few characters have the “emotional wound” device as only a few characters from a story proceed to have positive or negative arcs. But in GOT, all of the characters have emotional wounds. Jon snow is a bastard, Jaime is the king slayer, Dany’s family was murdered, Tyrion is a dwarf, jora dishonored his family, Theon is a grayjoy ward of Winterfell, and so on. In TFA, the only wound I see is in Rey. And that don’t use the wound to inform her decisions. She’s an orphan on a desert planet but does unorphan like things. She originally tells bb8 to gtfooh right after saving him. When a traditional writer would have reversed roles and had Rey be the one begging him to stay, noting his safety as a front for her longing to stitch together a family. Finn and Kylo are just running around for no apparent reason.

[@kellygreenii]

She is a kind of heroism that is unfamiliar and uncomfortable to white America. Especially males. But is familiar to women and POC: the ability to persevere in a world without it changing you. She is like Qui-gon was. Someone who is deeply in touch with The Living Force, and her struggle was to shut out the external distractions that would have drowned out or suppressed that voice. It was also to realize that that connection to The Force was all she needed. Training to a Jedi isn’t about gaining access to power. It’s about shaping it and making it more consistent in its application. As well as the wisdom to apply it properly for those less-strongly connected to the Light. In many ways she was the Light side of the Forces reaction to Anakin and the fulfillment of the Chosen One prophecy. Wholeness. Not dogmatism.

[@kellygreenii]

@@KermitOfWar Kylo was a conflicted Dark Jedi. Who had not fully committed himself to the Dark Side (which is Snoke kept mocking him), and whose flaws weakened his connection to the Light. While Rey is genetically related to the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history….and was fully committed and trusting of the Light. A Jedi’s power isn’t about training. It’s about maintaining a strong connection to the Light and trusting g it to guide your actions. To flow through you. It’s why Greivous was able to kill so many Jedi, and Sith always trash talk Jedi whenever they’re in combat. The goal is to trigger negative emotions (fear, anger. hate) and weaken the Jedi’s connection to the Light and their ability to use it. Rey is in many ways the culmination of the path taken by Qui-gob and Ahsoka. The realization that the Order had lost its way and had stopped serving The Force, but instead the Republic government, and it’s own traditions. It’s why Rey’s lightsaber was gold whe she finally built one of her own.

[@tposingjesus5491]

I do think you have to acknowledge that you can’t have the protagonist beat the main villain of a trilogy in their first fight. Could you imagine if Luke had beaten Vader on the Death Star?

[@bloodywanker49]

Agreed, what kind of threat did Kylo pose after getting his ass beat by the end of the first movie? Sure, there’s still Snoke but he was killed in the second movie for seemingly no reason and by the third (say it with me everyone) Somehow, Palpatine returned. These ridiculous choices leaves us with Kylo being the only consistent villain in the trilogy and again, he got his ass beat in the first film. What a joke!

[@jeff3221]

Vader ends Ep4 losing, flying off out of control in space. He wasn't intended to be more than a one off villain

[@trianglemoebius]

@@jeff3221 He's very clearly alive after that, and his survival is a foreshadowing moment. Spiraling off into space is hardly a death sentence when you're in a spaceship. It was one that could have served to end the series, because there was no promise there'd be a sequel. Lucas had basically put everything he had into SW, and gone near-broke in the process. He was convinced it'd be a huge success (and he was correct), but he wasn't exactly signed to a studio where a sequel could be made no matter what.

[@orrissonpereira1070]

It could've been an interesting thing, if Kylo Ren was the antihero protagonist and Rey was the villain in the end. But of course, awesome shit is not allowed under Disney.

[@Helperbot-2000]

@@trianglemoebius yeah its very common for nearly all movies like that, the first will nearly always have a miniature start middle end instead of only a start for the sequel films since unless you can be really sure itll pay off enough to finish the story you need to keep that movie contained in itself too. one of the best examples of the contrary is lord of the rings, where all three movies were definitively planed from the get go, so fellowship ends with our heroes group split and two of them dead since they didnt have to make a contained story and could focus on the larger plot

[@ez9566]

One very easy way to make her character more complex would have been to just give her at least some backstory like she has some friends to leave there or has to care for someone.

[@kaygee2121]

Her backstory was in TFA! She was left, alone, on Jakku to fend for herself at like six years old. How is that not a struggle?

[@ez9566]

@@kaygee2121 look, people in media arent normal since their story shall tell the abnormal clashing with normal. Obviously she did struggle, but is there complexity? An example I always use to judge good characters is what questions I would ask them. But Rey? She doesnt have anything I would like to know

[@asxulxetesteronsxez538]

You touched on something that I’ve only seen one other creator touch on. It’s not that Rey never makes mistakes, but that her mistakes and losses turn out for the better. And in a number of cases her mistakes are the best thing that could’ve happened.

[@AlbertoRodriguez-zb3iu]

The sad part is that modern writers have to down play established characters to make the female lead awesome (in the case of the sw sequels all of the original characters including Leia was portrayed as a failure.)

[@Supersurfer12]

They talked about how the Jedi Order was a failure for not stopping Palatine's rise and didn't talk about how Palatine used the Sith ruins under the Jedi Temple to cloud the council or how the Sith worked a thousand years on their plans.

[@lukasl3646]

@@Supersurfer12 which is true

[@cantthinkofaname5046]

@@Supersurfer12 but Luke is actually right, the Jedi council got complacent and arrogant. That’s why Palpatine had won. All he did was exasperate existing cracks. That’s literally the point of the prequels

[@MinuteLeech2]

@@Supersurfer12 They literally had a thousand year run of peace and prosperity. That's one hell of an achievement. To boil them all down as failures because they EVENTUALLY lost (like every empire/establishment in history inevitably does) was a bit much. Especially since Luke's jedi lasted what? Less than a decade compared to Yoda's order than lasted a thousand generations? JJ Abrams shouldn't have wiped Luke's jedi out just to reset the OT status quo

[@benjamin6194]

They really did Leia dirty in the sequels. She was their original strong female character and the screwed her over to make room for strong female characters. Kind of makes you wonder what they were thinking. It gets worse too. In the original script George Lucas sent to Disney, Leia had a much larger role. She became Supreme Chancellor and ruled the Republic. But Disney cut that! And they claimed they did it to empower women.

[@cifer8070]

Everytime I see qui gon I feel warmth in my heart Everytime I see obi wan I feel soft and jolly Everytime I see anakin I feel curiosity and like an awkward teen Everytime I see vader I feel terror and sadness Everytime I see luke I feel hopeful Everytime I see han solo I feel a sense of smug ... But I have never felt anything while looking at rey, even a feeling of disappointment would be better than the shallow emptiness of her character She is literally everyother "story female" character

[@meridaskywalker7816]

Why no female character here, though? There are many cool girls in Star Wars. Except in the sequels.

[@jackdunwody4771]

@@meridaskywalker7816 there’s tons of good female characters in Star Wars. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t like them because he said anything though. Ahsoka is one of my favorites for sure.

[@illsubtoeveryonethatsubsto4606]

A character made for gender diversity

[@dannychamberlain6244]

When I see Ahsoka, I see a young and stubborn girl turned into brave and selfless warrior. When I see Rex, I saw a man who at first blindly followed orders but grew more and became a more independent leader and human

[@Nyghtking]

I think there's more to the series that was the problem, but what you said is indeed a large one, it's hard to make a likable character when you didn't make a character.

[@CodyRushDriving]

So when episode 7 came out, I had a theory that Rey was initially presented as the protagonist but was going to, throughout the trilogy, become the antagonist. While at the same time, Kylo would take the opposite arc. Parts of episode 8 gave me hope that this was the correct theory, and that the characters would "meet in the middle" and finally balance the force, which requires a victory of neither side but rather a coexistence. I think this would have been an incredible trilogy had they followed this arc. Heroes can fall, villains can be redeemed. Balance in all things.

[@CC164_real]

Embodiment of FACTS

[@jakubrogacz6829]

Revan....

[@g-man-innermaster]

This is a great idea and it has a deeper philosophical core. Unfortunately Disney is a woke brainwashing machine and zero interested to entertain the audience.

[@legopussy2363]

they did it different ig. each time they fought it ended in 1 win each and a tie

[@justinparry1621]

Yeah, same here. This trilogy was such a series of wasted opportunities.

[@frankbieser]

Let's talk about Lea's bikini. It's long been argued Lucas did that purely for titillation. She had been enslaved by a monster that clearly had a thing for scantily clad females (e.g. the dancer Jabba fed to the Rankor). So, the way she was dressed was consistent with her being captured in her attempt to rescue Han. Throwing her in the pit with the rest wouldn't be consistent with a misogynistic piece of filth, but making her his sex slave would. Horrible? Yes, even to most men. But it's important to note that despite the attempt to debase her, Lea was able to take the opportunity and kill her very deserving giant slug captor. Seems like a female empowerment moment to me. :-)

[@Damianweibler]

Love the feminist statenent of that bikini. It says 'Be careful bad guys, a strong woman forced into a humiliating outfit isnt a sexy woman, she's just a strong woman in a humiliating outfit. And now she's mad at you..."

[@FandomCanon]

I'm convinced that Leia was placed exactly where Luke needed her. He put them in a position that allowed him to kill practically everyone at Jabba's palace while still following the Jedi code. She gets to work right away of smashing Jabba's control panel and strangling him. The whole thing was a setup I tell ya.

[@cryptyyy_7667]

Rey is just inexplicably powerfull, even though she started her training as a young adult instead of as a young child. I mean, with that power, she should have been "she chosen one" that everyone and their grandmother was prophecizing about. For example: the scenes where Rey casually force-heals Kylo Ren and this snake-creature are just... ridiculous; especuially when it's canon that thie ability to force-heal is so taxing (and rare) on its user that multiple jedi-masters have literally died trying to heal someone in the past.... bruh

[@Eclypsia13]

Rey is that character who bought the level-up potion when picking up a MMO for the first time.

[@j.a.hernandez9742]

@@Eclypsia13 bro her entire character arch is like buying APK games. Fucking unlimited everything, playing on fucking creative with cheats on so you can just do whatever the tf you want when you want to. She fucking just stumbles on force lighting, like wtf, how?

[@ashishhembrom3905]

And the movies are one continuous film: meaning - Monday she found a droid, Tuesday she discovered the force, Wednesday they blew up the death star/planet, Thursday She met Luke, Friday she went after the artifacts, Saturday she killed Palpatine, Sunday she takes on the Skywalker name. WTF

[@Eclypsia13]

@@ashishhembrom3905 certainly true for 1-2 but in fairness there is room for a time skip 2-3. Not that it makes it much better mind

[@anabolicchicken4115]

@@ashishhembrom3905 Yeah it all takes place in less than a year... wtf???

[@nick_pappagiorgio]

Rey had no character growth, she was perfect from the very beginning. The best lightsaber wielder, the best pilot, the best mechanic, the best gunner, and the best intuitive Force user with no training. She was Kathleen Kennedy's completely boring self-insert.