What *Is* Butt Rock?

[@12tone]

Some additional thoughts/corrections: 1) Songs used in this video: Come On Feel The Noise - Quiet Riot (Not how the title's spelled, I know, but I don't trust KZbin) I Was Made For Lovin' You - KISS Nothin' But A Good Time - Poison You Give Love A Bad Name - Bon Jovi Rockstar - Nickelback 45 - Shinedown So Cold - Breaking Benjamin Broken - Seether ft. Amy Lee Radioactive - Imagine Dragons Pompeii - Bastille Jungle - X Ambassadors Come With Me Now - KONGOS Some Nights - fun. Cherry Pie - Warrant Headstrong - Trapt 'Til The Love Runs Out - OneRepublic 2) Thanks to Matt Krol and Patrick Willems for lending me their voices for this! Check out their channels: kzbin.info and kzbin.info 3) Coming up with the list of examples for 3rd-wave butt rock was _hard._ Not because the movement didn't happen, but because it's still all tangled up in the rest of what's going on around it. With the first and second waves, it was relatively easy because there are broadly accepted canonic lists, built largely (although not entirely) in retrospect. Like, honestly, I don't think Buckcherry sounds all that much like a lot of their contemporaries in 2nd-wave butt rock, but I don't really need to prepare a justification for their inclusion here because it's already a pretty widely accepted fact. For 3rd-wave, though, I'm making this up myself, so in order to make my case as clear as possible, I had to focus on a very narrow, archetypal definition in order to establish a clear connecting thread through my examples. There were lots of other bands I could've cited, like AWOLNATION, Gotye, Florence and the Machine, Young Guns, Council, Banners, Young the Giant, Robert DeLong, 5 Seconds of Summer… but while they all exist in the correct orbit, they didn't quite capture exactly what I was looking for in a "perfect" 3rd-wave butt rock band. (Basically, bands that sound as much as possible like Imagine Dragons, even though "sounding like one particular band" isn't really how genres work. The definition is a work in progress.) Even OneRepublic, which I did cite, feels like it's a little on the fringe, but again, I think that's largely because no one's bothered to tease out the particular strain of modern rock from its contemporaries before. Without a genre label, it's hard to draw clear boundaries, so if there are bands I missed, or bands I included that you don't think I should've, sorry. Hopefully, at the very least, thinking through why you disagree with me will give you some better insights into how you feel this musical movement works. 4) There is an argument to be made that, if people haven't put it together organically, the 3rd wave doesn't really exist, and sure, that's fair. Again, a genre isn't just about sounding similar, so if that's all that's tying them together, it's not really there. But I can tell you from first-hand experience that it _felt_ like a new genre to me at the time, and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one, so I do think there's value in trying to categorize it as such. Whether or not butt rock is the right lens to do it is another question, and one I'm not fully prepared to answer, but at the very least I feel like it's an instructive lens. 5) There's also the point that, in many ways, the three waves of butt rock are not culturally contiguous. That is, there isn't a clear continuity of fandom that runs through all of them. This isn't unheard of: Pop music, for example, is another genre that does not prioritize continuity. But it does complicate the question of what butt rock "is", especially when compounded by the fact that the butt rock label has historically been applied first by external sources, so the connection between the three waves is more about outside perception than internal fan behavior. Doesn't mean that connection isn't real, but it does make it complicated. 6) When I say the second wave was over in the late 2000s (Or the first wave in the early '90s, for that matter) I don't mean everyone suddenly stopped caring about them. Many bands from those eras are still popular today. But that's the thing: They're still bands from those eras. There stopped being _new_ bands within the movement, or at least there stopped being very many of them. Just want to be clear that if you're still listening to Shinedown in the year 2022… I mean, so am I. We're just not on the cusp of mainstream rock anymore. 7) I mentioned that Fun. was probably the band to really kick off the 3rd wave, specifically with the release of Some Nights in 2012, but as with any artistic movement there are precursors. OneRepublic formed in 2002, and they had a couple albums in the back half of the decade, including some noteworthy hits, but Native in 2013 was the still a breakthrough for them, and stylistically sounds more like what I'm talking about than their previous work. American Authors similarly had been around for a while, but their breakout hit, Best Day Of My Life, also came out in 2013. Honestly the best argument for a band with breakout success in this style before Fun. would probably be Florence and the Machine: Their work has a lot of similarities in terms of spectacle, but the lyrical themes don't feel very butt rock, and the orchestration is often very complex, so it doesn't quite feel right to me. They tend to sound more like an orchestral performance than a rock show to my ears, so I'd view them more as precursors of the movement than originators. (Although I feel like there's probably some value judgments implied in those terms, so to be clear, I don't believe that one is better than the other.) The argument could certainly be made, though, and if it fits for you, great, go with that. 8) An interesting dynamic that I couldn't find the space to talk about is that advances in modern technology have vastly increased the number of possible sounds that can be produced live by a performer, allowing 3rd-wave butt rock to embrace some electronic elements without losing the live concert dynamic. I'd still hesitate to apply the label to anything _purely_ electronic (Especially in terms of drum sounds and overt autotune on vocals) but many 3rd-wave bands employ more studio tricks than their predecessors, because their listeners can still believe that it could be reproduced live. 9) This might go without saying, but when I talk about what the music "wants", that's an extremely subjective question! There is no right answer because music is not a conscious, living entity. I suppose a more precise way to phrase it would be that you're asking what kinds of ideas and experiences the music most consistently and effectively evokes within you, but that's not as pithy. 10) I should note that, in his video, McKenty was talking specifically about 2nd-wave butt rock, and his usage of the term did not seem to incorporate the 1st or 3rd. The point remains when applied to them as well, though. 11) No one asked, but in case you were curious: The Wall, Led Zeppelin IV, Nevermind, the White Album, the Black Album. (Although, full disclosure, in some cases the real answer is I don't care.) 12) I mentioned that Angus Young has at the very least said similar things to the infamous 12-albums quote, so here's a source on that. In a 2020 interview (found at facebook.com/TheProjectTV/videos/673936739863211/ ) he said "As my brother used to say, when somebody said, 'Every album you've ever made sounds the same,' he said, 'Yeah, it's the same band.' When we started, we weren't reinventing the wheel. This is what we do best - we make rock and roll."

[@Typical.Anomaly]

I think it's time for me to get a tattoo of The Elephant. (It is an elephant, right?) Lol I have a machine I got from Bezos for a hundred bucks. Time to start rewatching all of your videos to find the perfect specimen... ✌💗🤘

[@desia.brimou]

this may be a stupid question because i do only know the one song that got popular, but how is gotye butt rock?

[@DenKulesteSomFins]

@@desia.brimou where does he say gotye is butt rock?

[@rmdodsonbills]

It's annoying and frustrating to me that when Fun. gets airplay, it seems invariably to be their other hit, "We Are Young" which is very much inferior to "Some Nights." I'm very fine with calling "Some Nights" butt rock, but it is a very much deeper song than a lot of the other examples. At least it moved me quite a bit more than a lot of them.

[@just_jedwards]

Fun. may be butt rock but I personally always thought of that much more as theater kid rock. I can't listen to Fun. without hearing a group that wants nothing more than for musicals to be mainstream. This was very much the case with some notable late emo, too.

[@goestotwelve]

Hey, Mark Lee here, author of the piece you cited. I really enjoyed this video and you make a lot of good points, particularly that a genre shouldn’t be defined solely by what it isn’t. Thank you for this important contribution to the field of Butt Rock Studies!

[@EarleMonroe]

Perhaps one day someone will get a degree in Butt Rock Studies 🎓

[@CavinLee]

@@EarleMonroe It’s so goofy, I love it.

[@EarleMonroe]

@@CavinLee People have gotten PhD's for writing about Bob Dylan and lots of other musicians. So Folk Rock, Prog Rock, why not Butt Rock? ;-)

[@groovinhooves]

That all depends on Butt Rock remaining relevant enough long enough to enough people - then it will make its way, just like jazz, into the recognized academic "Western tradition" canon and your grandchildren will have to identify it, be able to discuss its historical and possibly contemporary cultural relevance, subject it to standard practice harmonic analysis - with Schenker graphs, of course... You'll see... maybe... If Stravinsky can do it, Butt Rock can, too.

[@Inn0IWNL]

The university buttrock built

[@JemmyJoeAGoGo]

The definition of butt rock being “what a live show feels like” was phenomenally accurate. Well done!

[@jhutt8002]

I just yesterday was in Mustasch show. Absolutely killer live show, and now I know what term to describe it :D Definitely Butt Rock at it's finest

[@treebirb1701]

Butt Rock waves recontextualized: 1st wave: Hair Metal 2nd wave: Post-Grunge 3rd wave: Whoa-core

[@mechmat12345]

Much better than his definition. This music does not sound similar because it's not the same thing, by any reasonable definition.

[@gargantula3274]

Whoa-core is the absolute best description I've ever heard of this music and should absolutely be adopted into the mainstream canon.

[@tothefinlandstation]

@@gargantula3274 that stuff sounded to me like a few sounds ripped from like Animal Collective, stripped of all experimental impulses, mixed with like a weird U2-esqe "worship music" bombast but without explicitly Christian/religious lyrics.

[@toppersundquist]

Laughed out loud at Whoa-core. Well done.

[@bruce-le-smith]

haha also in this subthread to appreciate woahcore, nice one

[@garygenerous8982]

I’d never heard the term “butt rock” before this video but once you explained it it does kind of make sense. But to me it’s always been “Radio Rock”. It’s the rock that you hear the same song five times during your eight hour shift. The rock that will end up played on “the best of the (three consecutive decades)” stations twenty years after the music was popular.

[@skakirask]

I always used “butt rock” as a term for “post-grunge,” the mid-90s-to-mid-2000s radio hard rock with the singer doing the weird Eddie Vedder impression (Creed, most notably). And Yes, it’s often meant as a pejorative to mock lowest-common-denominator sound and appeal. As for the 80s-era, I always referred to that as “c*ck rock,” and I’d call the third wave “beer commercial rock.”

[@Mud9]

What's the reasoning behind calling it c*ck rock?

[@skakirask]

@@Mud9 I'm guessing it's because of the macho bravado on display in the songs' lyrics and band's image. A lot of songs about sex, drugs, partying, etc.

[@jack_f_bass]

Yep, I’ve always referred to Creed as “Poor-man’s Pearl Jam”. They’ve got some catchy stuff, but the Vedder knockoff vibes are real.

[@kackers]

yeah for me the term "butt rock" immediately brings the post-grunge Vedder/Cobain impressionists of the 90s-00s, your Nickelback, Seether, Creed, etc. the 80s stuff has always been cock rock to me too, and the third wave being "Car commercial rock" which i've seen joked about by several people, notably to the expense of X Ambassadors and newer Muse releases

[@Zackattackback]

This is 100% the definition I've always used.

[@DavidBennettPiano]

I’ve never heard the term Butt Rock. If you had uploaded this video on April 1st I’d be certain the whole thing is an April fools! But now I know about Butt Rock I’m going to start using that term! 😆😄

[@turnleftaticeland]

Hi David

[@gergoretvari6373]

How about an analysis video, where you explain chord functions in butt rock songs?

[@_mels_]

I really expected the sentence "In butt rock, you don't just get to imagine what a live show would look like" to be followed up by "In butt rock, you get to imagine _dragons_ "

[@paulmuaddib451]

Wow. I never thought I'd ever actually see a perfect comment. But(t), here we are.

[@paulgordon6949]

@@paulmuaddib451 don't get it. What do dragons have to do with this?

[@kernium]

@@paulgordon6949 Cuz Imagine Dragons is a Butt Rock band, good job, you made me kill the joke.

[@jackroberts2704]

Is Imagine Dragons the Third Wave of buttrock?

[@waytoobiased]

yes

[@ezradanger]

I've mostly used the term to refer to "normie rock" or "radio rock". And I think you pretty much just analyzed what makes radio rock appealing to the mainstream. Nice job.

[@humanmusic6409]

The first band that comes to my mind when I hear the words “butt rock” is Nickelback. I’m old enough to remember the very end of the popularity for post-grunge and nu metal, but all my knowledge of glam metal is as something from the past. I never thought of Imagine Dragons and similar bands as butt rock, just pop rock, but I understand the relation now.

[@bruce-le-smith]

yeah would like to hear an argument to distinguish pop rock from butt rock...

[@NovemberXXVII]

@@bruce-le-smith I don't know if there's a firm line, but I've definitely noticed butt rock artists tend to actually be as dense as their music sounds, while pop rock...like, you can have a fairly sensitive, tuned-in artist *still* producing music that makes them sound like numbskulls.

[@Mewse1203]

Nickelback is a perfect example of his "super popular but no one admits to liking them" comment as well. At one point they were the 11th top selling Act of all time and the number two top selling foreign act in the US behind only the BEATLES and yet you could never find anyone that said they like the band. It was parody levels pf ridiculous

[@Hadgerz]

I still really like everything Nickelback did until all the right reasons made me pause, and then i stopped listening to them altogether by dark horse.

[@BaadMotorFinger]

I would always consider Imagine Dragons and those kinds of bands as "indie rock"

[@ragnkja]

In Norwegian we have the word “puddelrock” (“poodle-rock”) to describe approximately what English speakers might call “hair metal”.

[@dragonfluf]

I've only heard Butt Rock referred to in relation to Sonic music and Crush 40, cool to see it has decades of history behind it.

[@heartache5742]

game grump

[@m.f.3347]

I actually think butt rock suits Sonic pretty well (only pop punk is better IMO)

[@tannertadlock7741]

Thanks! I was gonna say this, now I can just like it so it goes up to the top. :3

[@jan_kulawa]

I said literally the same thing in another comment. Nice to see the outreach of Game Grumps.

[@Viviantoga]

I guess it's more Butt Ska than Butt Rock, but that's the context I've heard it used most too so I can't find much to complain about.

[@xcheesyxbaconx]

I'm so glad to hear you explain the different waves. I've tried explaining butt rock to friends whenever I use the term, and they get really confused when I say "yeah butt rock is like Poison, but there's also other butt rock that is like Nickelback". I was never able to understand how this makes sense but the way you described it really makes me feel more settled.

[@AalbertTorsius]

Expanding on that, one could argue that there's also Butt Punk.

[@gergoretvari6373]

That's me when i try to explain genres to any of my friends

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

But that’s not a very hard line to draw such that we need “waves” of classification. Poison used southern/country rock and classic metal elements to write basic rock music that maximized mass appeal Nickelback uses southern/county rock and classic metal elements to write basic rock music that maximizes mass appeal

[@nickcostley9282]

"It's easy to write off butt rock because it doesn't play by those rules, but idk. Maybe those rules suck?" that puts it well I think. Awesome video

[@maddestlad3868]

Butt Rock is (to me) that genre of music I can loudly sing in my car, not caring if I look like an idiot. They're easy to sing along with, and usually involve intensity. Watching this vid and hearing all the example songs reminded me of many of these songs I've missed, so thanks!

[@BFMV1100]

I've only ever thought of the 2nd wave of Butt Rock really being Butt Rock. The 1st wave I've always just thought of as Hair Metal, or C*ck Rock as I've seen in other comments. The 3rd wave I've always thought of as Grocery Store Rock because all of the example songs have been played in a Kroger, Publix, Wegmans, etc, at some point. Since you brought up Finn McKenty, I think his description of "all those bands you'd see headlining a red state rock festival" truly encapsulates what Butt Rock is. Not to mention, when he references that radio campaign, those stations that story is connected to are ones that specifically play what you call 2nd wave. So while it's a very interesting discussion to look at commercial rock music as a series of waves and what those waves are, calling all of it Butt Rock is too narrow. That said, I think it would make more sense to categorize 1st wave (hair metal), 2nd wave (butt rock) and 3rd wave (grocery store rock) as subgenres of Arena/Festival Rock.

[@rmdodsonbills]

I had never heard of "Butt Rock" until I saw this video, and once you started giving examples, my first thought at a definition was "Butt Rock is fun!" I think, after seeing the whole video, that's as good a definition as any. I listened to all three waves on the radio in their heydays and as each new wave came out I said, "yeah, I like this" and for the second two I added, "This is like what I used to listen to back in the day." I feel like you're generally on the right track with all of the analysis, but at the end of the day, Butt Rock is fun and I like it! Thanks!

[@jhutt8002]

In 70's britain it was called pub rock. I think.

[@brumd]

@@jhutt8002 No, pub rock was something else. Pub rock: stripped down rock music played with high energy at small venues, as a counter reaction to prog-rock & stadium rock of the days. To some extent it is the predecessor of british punkrock. Doctor Feelgood and early bands of Ian Dury are good examples.

[@jhutt8002]

@@brumd Exactly. To me that sounds very much like precursor to "butt rock"...

[@s.kanessuperbiatv6464]

As a guy who grew up on Sonic games, butt rock was what got me into music. Crush 40 had a sick song with each Sonic release and it got me so hyped that I didn't care whether it was 'good' or not. I feel that if a song is powerful enough to make people knowingly overlook 'goodness,' it's found success down a different path. Not the wrong path, but just a different approach to it.

[@Cross_Malaki]

Crush 40 to me is definitive Butt Rock, but it's also, actually kinda good in my mind. To me, it's about making you feel a certain way rather than some overt diplay of technical know-how. And that's great in my mind because no matter how much my brother in law tries, I will never fucking like Djent or any stupid overly complicated "our songs are nothing but guitar poly-rythyms design to show off" band when Butt Rock and Otacore are still available options.

[@Zelenal]

Yeah, I love that he kept using the word "sonic" to describe the genre without bringing up Crush 40. "Live and Learn" was on repeat in my head the entire time.

[@OscarManners]

My first introduction of the term "butt rock" was Game Grumps referring to Crush 40 as it on their Shadow The Hedgehog let's play! Loved Crush 40 before that though and still do!

[@TheOnlyBootlegger]

I know we've established that butt rock shouldn't be used as an insult, but it really makes me feel uneasy to refer to Crush 40 as butt rock.

[@StAugustine6]

NGL, the first minute of this video sounded like an April Fools' video in July, because I had never heard this genre defined or named. TIL I'm apparently a fan of Butt Rock, as I generally like every band you used as examples throughout the various waves. Who knew? Think at the end of the day, I'm just a fan of Rock, whether that is R'n'R, Heavy Metal, Hair Metal, Butt Rock, Punk-Rock, Pop Rock, Alt-Rock, or any other minute definition in between.

[@robbgosset674]

I'm the same, started out as "wtf is butt rock?" but then more and more bands I like got mentioned.

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

“Think at the end of the day, Im just a fan of Rock” Yeah!… nothing BUTT Rock Alright folks, I’ll see myself out.

[@CassidyShadewing]

Yeah, this is where I am. Like I've heard the term before; a lot of Sonic vocal music gets described as Butt rock, but then I click on this and like... 90% of the bands he lists are bands I love and listen to pretty consecutively. So its like, well damn. I'm big into Butt Rock. But like you, I think it falls back on the same idea of, I generally like most genres of music and will listen to just about anything.

[@doomdoot6731]

Tbf, the defining feature of Butt Rock is that it is the most digestible version of Rock, so it makes a lot of sense that many people just like it without knowing what exactly it is. But yeah, TIL as well

[@JakeDiToro]

Seriously. I lived through and listened heavily to all these waves of music described, and have never heard the term until today. Until he said the words "arena rock" I wasn't even sure where any of this video was going, and that was what 4 minutes into the vid?

[@miahthorpatrick1013]

Butt rock is simply a derogatory term for any type of commercialized post-grunge music, band or artist. As in the video, butt rock tends to be more fun than other types of rock. Interesting video!

[@DerekPower]

What's weird is that the one time I could recall hearing the term "butt rock" was from fellow popular music historian, Todd in the Shadows, who used it not only to describe Nickelback but also Grand Funk Railroad of all bands, predating those bands mentioned.

[@w00tmonger84]

Butt rock isn’t a genre, it’s a state of mind.

[@ryanshinermusic]

I’ve heard it in punk and metal scenes. Also apparently industry people use it because label reps were quoted using it in the book “Sellout”

[@Jaspertine]

Music snobs of the day definitely looked at Grand Funk Railroad as more people pleasers than serious musicians.

[@CSXIV]

Todd also indirectly referred to Van Halen and Aerosmith as butt rock. In the "Trainwreckords" video for "Van Halen 3," he addressed a comment that Van Halen 3 would never have been successful because "it's the mid-90's; who cares about a butt rock group who got thier start in the 70's?" And then blasts Aerosmith's "Don't want to miss a thing," (a hit in the mid 90's and, no joke, Aerosmith's first #1 hit), before commenting "yeah, that's my answer to that."

[@steppenhenge]

Butt Rock as I'd heard it in the early 90s mostly focused on the singer, as did most any discussion outside of musician circles. David Lee Roth performing "Hot For Teacher" bare assed in chaps got Van Halen dubbed butt rock even with Eddie and Alex's amazing playing. It was more about the frontman's vanity, so Steven Tyler's duckface fits too, and most hair metal as well. I've been confused when people later labeled the late 90s-early 00s bands with it, besides maybe Creed. I remember that just being called rock or hard rock, since it wasn't alternative or metal. Same with the bands like ACDC, KISS, ZZ Top, "officially" referred to as hard rock and sometimes referred to as beer rock in a derogatory sense- simple, cheap, gets the job done. Lyrics about girls and having fun are "easy" and shallow. The music is "simple" and easy to follow. Because of my experiences, I could understand grouping those parts of the 1st wave with most of the second wave as beer rock, but my brain doesn't like all of em being called butt rock, since to me that means a preening frontman and sexually charged lyrics. Just a vain frontman? Glam rock. Just "simple"/straightforward songs with lyrics about sex, groupies, drinking, partying? Beer rock. Butt rock needs both, though for most people just the frontman was enough. Just my experience with the term, just goes to show the power of labels. Glad to get the perspective of how these are similar since my mind has them divided. I'd just written off the 2nd and 3rd wave as people referring to any rock they didn't like.

[@ThisCommentWroteItself]

It seems weird to me to put Fun in the same class as Imagine Dragons, Bastille, etc. I mean yeah, they share a sense of big theatricality, but Fun strikes me as way more pretentious and way more "serious" -- whereas I can kind of hear Imagine Dragons as a spiritual successor to hair metal, Fun feels to me way more inspired by silly/pretentious bands like Queen. I also think Fun is much less about capturing the feel of a live concert -- see the auto-tune guitar solo on Some Nights for an example of something that very clearly 'breaks the illusion,' as you say.

[@zester000]

Yeah Fun is *very* heavily inspired by Queen

[@WillW995]

Yeah I'd agree with this. I'd also argue that Some Nights is very much supposed to be experienced as an album in its entirety

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

I think the idea he's trying to get across is that while the songs are not technical powerhouses, they present themselves in such a way that it replicates a non-studio feeling. Both Imagine Dragons, take radioactive for instance, and FUN have the ability to be able to be sung by anyone anytime and those listening are able to picture the rest of the song in their own mind.

[@dewitt.powers]

And weird not to see AWOL Nation included

[@soupalex]

how can you be simultaneously "silly" _and_ "pretentious"?

[@tyr4489]

i'd love to see a dissection of the album format as a musical form in and of itself. i notice metallica used essentially the same formula from RtL to AJfA: fast paced opener with slower intro, longwinded title track, slower groove based song, ballad, etc etc etc, instrumental right near the end. most albums seem to open with a high energy track, actually. i'm sure this would have to start with artists like frank sinatra and the beatles who were among the first to consider the whole album as more than just a collection of songs, and would include some lengthy discussion about album oriented rock stations. just an idea that's been brewing in my head for a while

[@MrJingleberry512]

You get higher energy tracks at the beginning of older albums because you have more dynamic range on the outside of a vinyl disc.

[@josephjimorris]

@@MrJingleberry512 If you study music production, in particular the subject of album or EP arrangement, you’re literally taught to put tracks like that first to grab attention and set a tone. The music world has largely evolved past that but ideas stick around long after we remember why we used them in the first place.

[@Taschenschieber]

I'd suggest that Dragonforce and Black Sabbath *aren't* part of the same genre: at this point, Metal has become so heavily diversified that it is almost useless as a descriptor. Black Sabbath is traditional Heavy Metal, Dragonforce is Power Metal - two different genres with vastly different aesthetics, which are both part of the same large artistic movement or lineage or whatever.

[@JETAlone12]

If Black Sabbath came out today, instead of when the genre was being defined, we'd be arguing about whether it was Doom Metal or Sludge Metal or Stoner Metal, but since it was one of the first we just call it Metal.

[@horgh_japan]

Martin Popoff tried exploring the roots of metal by documenting the first occurrences of the various elements that we've come to associate with metal such as distortion, riffing, "harsh" or unconventional vocal styles (including screaming). No one would all the acts he found to be "metal" and many still fell squarely into the blues/early rock genre. Then Sabbath came and more or less incorporated all the basic elements of what is called metal into one sound. Yet, as you've just said, what Sabbath ended up coming up with is quite different from "metal" 50 odd years later just like the early rock pioneers had one foot in the blues tradition that made them very different from Sabbath despite not being that far removed chronologically. But early rock is equally distant from rock in the 80's, 90's and today. Blues is no longer the reference point it once was and rock has become its own genre. And this is likely why Sabbath feels so different from more contemporary forms of metal - rock started to sound more like Sabbath while "metal" acts started to explore the foundations of metal and stretch them further. The line between genre and sub-genre is a thin one. Stretch the foundations enough and you might make your sub-genre into a new genre down the road.

[@matthewcox7985]

Metal has become a whole periodic table!

[@MelMelodyWerner]

so what you mean is that metal is an umbrella term. it being "so heavily diversified" is the point, just like literally any other umbrella genre like rap, pop, rock, jazz, country, synth, folk, etc.. and I would argue that Black Sabbath and Dragonforce are more alike in genre than you're implying. someone who likes one is far more likely to enjoy the other than it is for someone who enjoys Behemoth to ALSO very much rip out some Dragonforce. power metal is very, very, very close to heavy metal sonically, as opposed to literally any extreme metal subgenre like death, black, or sludge-or even thrash. sure, the bands have different appeals, but this is like saying that A Tribe Called Quest does not share genre with Backxwash. they clearly do and that argument would get laughed out of any room, because being in a different subgenre (whether that be doomy heavy metal like Sabbath or epic power metal like Dragonforce; jazz rap like ATCQ or horrorcore like Backxwash) does not mean you aren't sharing a wider genre. addendum: this all being said, I am a metalhead in general and I like music from all of the subgenres, more or less. yes, even including metalcore. and while there are outliers, when I am in a mood SPECIFICALLY for metal, I will basically choose from any subgenre, extreme or not. they all have riffs, except for scum-infested scenes such as NSBM who are both bad humans and bad musicians-and hair metal, which is infested with abusers and r*pists like Aerosmith (icymi, Steven Tyler married an actual child) and Motley Crüe ("Saints of Los Angeles" is literally about drugging a "groupie" and "scoring" her), who also happen to just be the absolute worst musicians, either caterwauling ballads or the most faux macho "barn-burners" that just make me wish I was listening to Judas Priest, Warlock, or Mercyful Fate instead. tangents aside, my point is that while metal subgenres are vastly different, sometimes a motherfucker just wants some music with some teeth and riffs. whether that's blackened crustgrind à la Coffin Nail, or symphonic death like Aephanemer, or the traditional heavy inspired progressive metal of Black Sites. which speaks to the ties that bind metal as a whole.

[@CanadaWaxSolvent]

I get what you're saying.... but I'd say Dragon Force is more of an intensification of Black Sabbath than a divergence. Especially when you really consider how metal is different from hard rock, rock, punk, and other genres.

[@kay_sou]

Early 3D Sonic Games are what I think of when I think of Butt Rock. Open Your Heart, Live and Learn, Escape From the City, Sonic Heroes, His World, I Am... All of me, etc. Even when the games were bad, the music was a highlight.

[@Osric24]

I GOTTA FOLLOW MY RAINBOW

[@MarceloKatayama]

It doesn't matter is probably the biggest example in those games

[@MarceloKatayama]

@A Hogammer wouldn't it be metal?

[@djsmeguk]

I was a teenager loving the first wave, and NEVER heard it called butt rock. It was just rock. The in-between between pop (ew) and metal (inaccessible). They were everywhere on the radio. And I heard a jingle like that EVERY SINGLE HOUR. Rock radio staples those songs were. Mixed in with "classic rock" from Purple, Sabbath and others from the early days. I probably made dozens of mix tapes and these songs were the core. Dead or alive by Bon Jovi was just such a wonderful building block. But never heard the term butt rock. As an addendum I loved grunge too, nevermind blew my mind, but that just meant more for the mix tapes. Black by Pearl Jam made a perfect compliment to dead or alive on those mix tapes.

[@heybudgreatname]

I think the key here when considering the “3rd wave” of Butt Rock is that this wave integrated a lot of ideas of the pop wave of the late 2000s and early 2010s. While the second wave felt very personal and explored a darker style with often more serious themes, the 3rd wave generally took itself less seriously, was less toxic and more inclusive

[@mechmat12345]

There is no third wave, that whole segment is nonsense. He's essentially saying those bands are commercially successful rock bands who lots of people hate, which could describe a number of bands from any era.

[@heybudgreatname]

@@mechmat12345 I mean, I see what he’s saying. I think the common theme of butt rock is rock that’s trying to hard to be hard, and that 3rd wave sound is like all the indie folk artists of the early 2010s trying to sound hard. Like Radioactive

[@jesot]

@@mechmat12345 Yeah. Those bands are just what would be called "pop music". I don't even think it falls under "rock". It's just music he just doesn't like. That's not what buttrock is.

[@GreenLantern814]

@Heybudgreatname Accepting the framework of Butt Rock he presents in the video, I really like your take. It spins rock's new work as keeping up with the times and social trends, which is a really hopeful way to look at it.

[@CalebM-Music]

That whole white knight tangent he went on about "girls girls girls" and "crazy bitch" was kinda silly. I saw buckcherry play that song and the ladies loved every minute I assure you. "Crazy bitch" is toxic but "WAP" is somehow empowering? Crazy times we live in 😆

[@Vnigma17]

Not my first time here. But my first time leaving a comment. Another defining, I guess you'd call it quality/principal? Of Butt Rock, is that aside from the simplicity in what they're writing, singing, or creating in the song. Or playing, is the magnetism, and iconic background that they would try to cast on their songs. In which it would become popular. It's hard to put it into words, but it goes back to what Eddie Van Halen, had said about Music, and how it would become popular, and hence become "Pop-Music," or "Pop-Rock." (I believe it was EVH, who coined this. Or it might've been someone out of the Grunge Movement?) Continuing... Where as Butt Rock, can create, and cast a sound on itself, and become popularized by the mainstream media. Where if we look at something like, Nickelback's "Rockstar." It's simplicity in using simple rhythms, and chords, with lyrics pertaining to just living a Rockstar lifestyle, make it popular. This popularity can be then used to reformat it in a multitude of ways. Be it media, through TV, Video Games, Movies, or whatever, and through just basically put into rotation on the radio, or even a stores overhead speakers. A Good example of this would be the early 2000s in movies like Spider-Man, and more Notably the Punisher, which used bands like Seether, Nickelback, and Godsmack, to help convey the feeling of the movies, with songs like "Hero," and "Broken," they helped to convey, but also inspire the sound of the genre at the time of those movies. Same with bands like Poison, Twisted Sister, Warrant, and Kiss. A lot of their songs can sometimes be found in old movies, or even to help convey certain moments in movies, I.e. the Gooby-Goober Scene in the first SpongeBob Movie. Same with Trapts "Headstrong," go to any MMA, or Arena/Fight type event, and most likely you find this in rotation at some point during the show. Or even in someones workout track playlist. Another good example of this could be seen in FallOut Boy, a bit. Where around the early days, they were just a simple Pop-Punk band, but moved up the ranks quickly to attain Rockstar status? (If you want to call it that.) But whether you want to define them as Butt Rock, is entirely up to the listener. The thing I can most remember about them, possibly pertaining to Butt Rock, would probably be the use of their Song "Dance Dance," which after it's popularity surge, became a staple to play at most types of events, but probably was played most at Dances, or Highschool Events, like Prom, or something. Sometimes these certain occurrences can lead a band to claiming the title of Butt Rock Status to be casted on them. Ultimately it just depends on a mix of Media popularity, and overall majority of what they sounds popular, or what is cool, hip, and trendy at the time. Nirvana became popular because of "Teen Spirit," but they usually would sabotage their own sound when playing it live, cause of the popularity of it. Paramore's Biggest hit was "Miz Biz." But they moved away from it, and refocused their sound, and evolved it to what they knew in terms of musical stylings. Both of these bands, can be considered unique, and not butt rock in any sense if you wanted too debate it. But versus something like Nickelback, or No Doubt, in which case, we can obviously see that one of these bands is a Butt Rock Band, but we would have to debate whether the other can be considered one? Again this would come down to a mix of things, like Popularity, Media Influence, Sound, and Stylings, Lyrical formula/formality, and overall how they would address themselves in terms of their own status as a, Musician v. Rockstar. Which is a whole nother thing to get into. But won't at the moment. In the end, all I can hope is that something in all of what was written above makes sense in some way, and other than that... "👍🏼"

[@certainlynotthebestpianist5638]

Amazing video! It had everything: great explanation, fantastic language, clever drawings, and - above all - yet again the never-ending theme of "being popular and/or simpler does not make music bad". I loved every second of it

[@succumbtoviolets]

I think there's a reason that the "nothing but rock" etymology has stuck even if it's not the true origin; people associate the "butt-rock" sound with fans/radio stations etc that regarded other music besides butt-rock as wimpy and soft sounds for babies. Of course no generalization like that can be entirely true, but certainly when I was a teenager in the 90s that was often the sort of hyper-masculine gruff & tuff image that the classic rock and mainstream rock stations tried to project. I'm not really sure I'm buying the post-2010 radio-friendly pop-rock bands as being a part of that lineage. In the '90s, for example, there were bands like Hootie & The Blowfish and Counting Crows, and they were on the radio and critics didn't love them, but people didn't think of them as butt-rock because they didn't have quite the same kind of image.

[@josephjimorris]

Marginally better than “nothing but butt” I suppose.

[@towardstar]

The nothing but rock ads were huge I used to hear them all the time

[@agonzalez7095]

I'm not buying into the late 2000's 2010's pop rock bands either but they do match some of the criteria, similarity to previous waves when it comes to bombastic music, fake edgy lyrics are similar to post grunge, very mainstream yet hated by many rock fans, the kind of stuff "real rock" stations like to play. He makes a pretty good case honestly for it

[@Anon-xx6wq]

Hootie, CC, Candlebox, Dishwalla and all those terrible whiny milquetoast bands are best not lumped into a named genre lest they return to recreate that genre. That would be criminal.

[@gregbush8573]

I feel like the "missing hard rock" you speak of between the second and third wave of buttrock can largely be attributed to the emo push, bands like fall out boy and panic! were taking rock beats and doing esoteric harmonies and timbre, allowing the pendulum to swing back

[@booneh]

3rd wave butt rock seems to me to be post “scene” music. I feel like you can draw a through line from the end-stage emo bands (Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Panic At The Disco) to Imagine Dragons, especially as they incorporated more electronic and hip-hip production into their recordings. A big feature is how hard they try not to sound like a rock band in the studio compared to how they sound live.

[@towardstar]

buttrock and scene music were almost entirely separate. they have some minor things in common but you never would confuse the listeners of the two

[@booneh]

@@towardstar The point of this video is that “buttrock” is a certain genre of music that is made anthemic and stadium-ready for a broader audience, so that stands to reason.

[@towardstar]

@@booneh he's trying to redefine a term that worked perfectly well already and everyone knew the music it described. he's expanding that definition to include a bunch of stuff that was never considered buttrock except from niche cases that were not widely accepted. what is the point of that except to flex your intellectual clout

[@booneh]

@@towardstar This sounds very important to you.

[@towardstar]

@@booneh Youre above it now, good for you

[@thospe-f8x]

Not the only person to mention this, but a lot of the music for the 3D sonic games is kinda my personal model of Butt Rock. The City Escape theme in particular. This actually makes sense in the context of one of the key points of this video. While the musical conventions of the song feel more like pop punk to me, the Sonic games have always sought to convey the feeling of speed embodied in Sonic as a character. I think this is a point in favor of the idea that Butt Rock is more of an ethos than a particular style of music.

[@Dark_Aves]

Ive always equated Sonics music with Ska more than Butt Rock, but after reading your comment, with the information presented in the video, I can totally see that line of thinking

[@buddyfoster6698]

I agree a lot with what you said. As I’ve always understood it, butt rock has often be music that sounds like it’s “older people” singing younger music, or how about what’s trendy at the time. And it caused like a disconnect. They don’t have to actually BE older, they may just SOUND that way. Take Lifehouse for example. They were all young guys when they were popular, but that dudes voice…it was just so deep. And that’s a lot of what happened with nickleback in the time they got big. Chad’s voice just stood out so much and all of a sudden there were a ton of bands that had the same sound, so they all were lumped in with butt rock. And they all had something that just inherently made you dislike them, even if you did like them lol. I will also say that with all the singers sounding the same in the second gen and the more pronounced usage of “butt rock” as a descriptor it was often said it’s called that bc the singers sound like they’ve got their butt wrenched right as they sang lol

[@tempest_dawn]

i want to thank you for highlighting butt rock's maximalism as a distinctive characteristic, as looking back that seems to be what drew me to it in my teens - suddenly the last few years of obsessing over atmospheric blackgaze feels like it's a lot more connected to the tastes of my past

[@NoobeyTunes]

"Arena Rock" is the better term, since it's not about what the music actually sounds like, it's the function that defines the genre rather than a genre per se. Like a Ship of Theseus the 'genre' has been completely changed while maintaining its name.

[@eclong462]

my first thought about butt rock is that late 2000's era of music with bands like Five Finger Deathpunch and Disturbed. I picture the person who listens to them as a bald 40 year old dad who wears Tapout shirts and takes his 13 year old son to baseball games where he yells too loud about the umps missed calls.

[@AndrewAMartin]

@death to the suburbs cheap cigarettes, Marlboro Reds on payday and American Spirit the rest of the week...

[@salv5203]

Idk I'd still throw those in alt metal like slipknot and kill switch engage. Butt rock seems like just rock. Normal ass can be on the radio with no censor rock. Rock that you'd change yhe station to in the car and your parents wouldn't change it cause it was tolerable to them for the 20min drive.

[@JAM-rp6fi]

I'm still kind of a heady guy, but this video has given me a newfound respect for butt rock that I never thought I would've had :)

[@Steveofthejungle8]

What you called the second wave of butt rock is definitely what I associate the genre with

[@daturtlez]

Using his examples I simply like all three genres

[@michaelfranzosa158]

Thank you! I’ve literally never heard anyone refer to hair metal or new pop rock as butt rock and it makes no sense to me

[@johnathanpratt944]

Proceeds to yarl "HWHAT EEF"

[@elgatonegro1703]

Yeah, because the ‘first wave’ would be more commonly called ‘cock rock’- ie, metal and rock that seemed to focus on sexual swagger rather than technical prowess (whatever that means). Then butt rock was like, bands that were inspired by cock rock, except fartier. That having been said, whoever pointed out that Todd In The Shadows applied the term to Grand Funk has a point…retroactively it’s easy to find a common thread amongst loud and ostensibly poppy rock bands through the ages. To that end I think this video is actually a pretty good explanation of it.

[@Mewse1203]

Just curious: how old are you? I always thought Butt Rock was just another name for 80's hair/glam metal. I was born in the 80s, really grew up in the 90s and am about to turn 40.

[@blixxy1320]

when I listen to post grunge, I’m not trying to overanalyze all the little subtleties as I would with The Wall or The Black Parade; I simply listen to it and enjoy it for what it is. your mma-Bruce Lee analogy sums it up pretty well

[@Stephen-Fox]

Since you asked, and before watching the video so as to give the answer in the context of when it was asked - The first band that comes to my mind when I hear the term butt rock? Crush40. Particularly when it comes to Live and Learn and Open Your Heart. I think I'd also lump the Bucky O'Hare and Power Rangers theme songs in there. Maybe even the original Pokémon theme. I view it as this high cheese, high sincerity, incredibly catchy, form of rock that lodges in your brain and never lets go which is probably why most of the examples that come to mind are theme songs to kid's shows and games - It's exactly the sort of music that works really well in that context. Absolutely fun, but also incredibly insubstantial. And that's fine - That's sometimes exactly what you want. ...And looking at both attempts to define it, the traditional 'more emotional version of rock' and your 'encapsulating a consert into a single song via polished maximalism' would explain why I've come to associate it with theme songs of works aimed at 8-12-year-olds. If you're doing and decide rock is the right sound for it, both of those are _exactly_ the sound you should be aiming for. I'm not saying intellectual 10 year olds don't exist, I was the sort of kid who'd devour science encyclopedias and manage to get into sci-fi shows from quiet scenes of characters discussing politics rather than the space pew pew stuff when the show had both, but those are _also_ into the fun maximalism you characterize butt rock as or the raw emotion that you don't need to be intricately familiar with a genre to process what's going on that the other definition characterizes butt rock as.

[@KingOfNotHere]

All I got from this was that Weezer sometimes technically counts as head rock.

[@turinturambar1159]

Dude, you can draw :) always enjoy your illustration to tell the story along with your voice, the visuals never feel like too much, but they definitely bring a nice second layer to your content that, while subtle, absolutely does your videos a service.

[@designersheets]

Can't believe I never realized Imagine Dragons (and other similar bands) is butt rock. I always felt butt rock is mainly about sounding big and feeling... feelings, which is what a concert is like, so I agree with this video a lot. I had no idea the term was that old, so thanks for teaching me that! I love the idea of very specific genre labels because it makes it easy to talk about exactly what kind of music you mean, but it can be too restrictive or sometimes used negatively, like butt rock initially was, and like many labels can and have been. Glad I don't worry about it nearly as much as when I was a kid and I can just enjoy stuff, even if it's butt rock.

[@manonvernon8646]

The neutral definition you arrive at, I have always known as "Arena rock". The term "Butt rock" is perfectly serviceable as a term for the commercial and generic side of arena rock. Except rather than flat-out perjorative, I see it as "playfully negative" - people know this music gets butts on stadium seats (there we go, a new meaning behind the "butt" aspect"), it doesn't make it any less fun.

[@juanramirez-wk8ty]

In my experience terms like "butt rock" are strictly derogatory and used mostly by snobby types which may explain why most people would not admit to liking it. Most people who are fans of the type of music called "Butt rock" would not refer to it as such and would more than likely take offense at it being called that with good reason.

[@TheAntiburglar]

The Sonic the Hedgehog soundtracks, particularly the Adventure Series, are Butt Rock™ at its finest XD

[@aceof8S]

Fellow lovely, I see lol

[@mikeciul8599]

When I was about 6 years old I had some friends who were into Kiss. For the rest of my life, my stepdad used that as an excuse to tell me I had no taste and was easily impressed by spectacle and I didn't appreciate intelligent, virtuosic music. (He was a fan of Eric Clapton and Frank Zappa). The weirdest part is that he also told me this story about Devo, saying that their name celebrated devolution, which to him somehow proved a point about how Devo was dumb. Is Devo butt rock or head rock? Maybe they're WHOLE BODY rock... ;) For the record, I love Devo and I'm kind of meh about Kiss. But I like Imagine Dragons, and I enjoy AC/DC and Bon Jovi.

[@Fizyxx]

Mark Motherbaugh of Devo actually had a great career in music for movies. He's probably better than devo would get him credit for.

[@DanHarkins-jk9mi]

Devo = New Wave

[@DougSalad]

I'd be interested in an in-depth analysis like this of Ska. The origins and its distinction from reggae, the various phases like Two-Tone, Third Wave/Ska-Punk, and whatever the hell you'd call Streetlight Manifesto. edit: props for the Celeste reference at 19:20

[@Rasculdrums]

So what I was wondering: is this an American term? I'm Dutch and I've never heard it before this video (well, once or twice in the 'nothing but rock' joke), and I'd consider myself pretty deep into the 'head rock' genres you're discussing. None of my non-US friends have ever used the term either. The terms I'm more familiar with to describe those bands are commercial rock, stadium/arena rock or something along those lines, which pinpoints more towards the genre's focus on wide commercial appeal. Funny thing, one of the best examples of the third wave I can think of is actually a Dutch band called Kensington. Check them out if you want to see what I mean - they're more of a rock band than even Imagine Dragons, but otherwise fit very neatly in that style. I do like the argument that this is actually a pretty admirable skill: writing something that's catchy, uplifting and cathartic in a way that can galvanize stadiums and festival fields is not easy even if it seems to appeal to the lowest common denominator. It also makes a good case for seeing this as a genre with cultural conventions rather than watered down versions of what the alternative scene is doing. I do think you're missing one thing, and that's the genre blending that's inherent to butt rock/arena rock, 'mellowing out' the abrasiveness of rock with the mainstream appeal of other styles that are (or were just) popular. Hair metal borrowed heavily from disco (I'm of the opinion that Kiss is not even a rock band, more a disco act with guitars), late 90s alt rock is heavily in debt with the singer songwriter revival, and the current wave takes on EDM with the happy shout choruses (most explicitly in that unmentionable Fall Out Boy record, hoooo boy). Last thing: I'm not so sure the third wave is a response to softer folk rock styles, more to the indie and garage rock acts of the late 2000s to early 2010s.

[@hsmoscout]

as a fan of a lot of "third wave butt rock," i gotta say that imagine dragons' first album was a genuine real game-changer for me that made me realize i love pop music, and bastille debut came in and sealed the deal

[@afterdinnercreations936]

As far as I can make out, butt-rock is the mainstreaming of new revolutionary rock/metal techniques, sounds, genres, and themes. Psychedelic and acid-rock morphed into yacht-rock & arena-rock in the 70s. Punk & heavy-metal morphed into new-wave & hair-metal in the 80s. Grunge & alt-rock turned into post-grunge & adult-alternative in the 2000s, etc. What started out as expansions and/or rejections of the old-traditions became traditions in of themselves. Attempts at macho-posturing & manufactured-angst included.

[@wolfbd5950]

The animations and character drawings were fantastic in this one (8:25 oof) - they felt like the visual equivalent of the shotgun snare. It's great seeing people improve over time.

[@sleepinbelle9627]

Really enjoying this wave of anti-elitist media analysis. My dad is a huge music snob (and not even a coherent one. He says he hates all metal music but Deep Purple is his favourite band of all time). I've found so much good stuff since I stopped judging music by its genre tags and actually listened to it.

[@travisnorman]

I skipped a lot of my classes during college. If you were teaching them, I'd have perfect attendance. I learn a lot from your videos, thank you for your thorough, thoughtful, and engaging work.

[@AubriGryphon]

Personally I think of "butt rock" as an insulting synonym for hair metal. But maybe that's just dating me. I think a more charitable way to put the "lead and follow" angle is that when all the biggest names are experimenting, not everything works. Not everything lands. Butt rock comes along and distills the fun, usable bits from the detritus of failed experiments and, in a way, establishes what DID work and what didn't. It's the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) response to the complexity of experimentation.

[@ChristopherOrth]

Interesting to hear you describe grunge rock as "pushing boundaries", when to someone who grew up in the 70s/80s, it is grunge that would fit the "butt rock" definition of being a dumbed down following wave. After a couple of very technical decades, where guitar players were center stage and even a pretty mediocre band had really good players in it, the 90s was an incredibly simplified set of chord structures, no solos from any instrumentalist, and some of the least functional vocalists ever in pop (if you sustain your consonants, well..... sigh). It was so clearly a counter movement to everything that had come before.

[@wesleybrehm9386]

As a budding music theorist, your videos help me apply the techniques and theories I'm learning about in school to real music. Ghost Notes is fantastic. Thank you for helping make the world of music more accessible and enjoyable!

[@coldanimal5107]

Musical genres aren't really defined by what the music sounds like, but by the kind of audience that turns up to listen to it.

[@daroldfuapse6178]

I remember hearing that the term arose something like this: "How could you listen to this song? This band is so corny!" "BUT IT ROCKS!!!"

[@SalientPint]

When my friends were constantly exploring musically--so, the 90's--one friend introduced this term to our group. The contemporary dynamics were all about the rise of grunge and other alternative styles to claim the mantle of primary popular appeal from the noted excesses of pop/hard rock/metal, & using "butt rock" to critique their superficiality, but this was much more about lyrical quality than the musicality (with a few exceptions like "gratuitous" guitar solos, a whole topic in itself). Calling something butt rock at that time was at least in my musical circle a gentle jab that did not dismiss the music outright - it was still recognized as/allowed to be enjoyable, but as a pleasure for which one should feel some indulgence-based guilt, in more or less the same way that one should feel about watching trash TV. So yeah, it's an insult, but a fun. one.

[@thesollylama130]

I simply call it 'Bar Rock'. The music that you hear playing at your local dive bar. Whether it's a live cover band or just music piped in- this is the background music you can tap your toe to but not be so invested as to break conversation or drink ordering. It's heavy enough to have presence but doesn't dominate attention like more technical or aggressive music. It's easy for drunk moms to sing along with after too many Appletini's. It's also 'Cover Band Rock' for the same reason. This explains the reliance on singles-- songs by Nickelback and Buckcherry are covered in thousands of bars every night by local bands. A playlist of 'butt rock' is basically a set list for a local cover band. One radio friendly song after another As a cover band in a dive bar, you are basically recreating FM radio.

[@jasonremy1627]

Given your definition of Butt Rock, I think we need to define a Zero Era of Butt Rock (or push the numbers back one) to encompass the era that includes Journey and Foreigner... I would definitely include them in the Butt Rock concept.

[@ospero7681]

Those two arguably fall into the video's definition of the First Wave, which does specifically mention the 1970s.

[@jhutt8002]

Fabulous thunderbirds - Butt Rockin' was released in 1981

[@Anon-xx6wq]

Journey and Foreigner are armpit rock, from the muscle shirts they wore. Also, they stink.

[@LarkVsOwl-de3op]

So busy watching the great sketching I have to go back and re-listen to a cogent argument! As always, genrefying music makes me sad, but there's no going back, and I find that my favorite music breaks the bonds of genre. Good work here!

[@lavenderchants6014]

You are so right! It is way easier to make pretentious and thoughtful anxt-rock that sounds original (though depressing) than fun-rock that is not derivative of something that's already been done. I guess there are just limited ways to have fun, but infinite ways to suffer. Lol. Luckily, today is a singles game everywhere and, though I mourn the death of the album, I love having the freedom to put out a single that is not beholden to anything but that moment and that expression of my feelings. I am not tied to a genre yet, so I feel free to go wherever I can go, musically. I love your channel! Keep it up!

[@DCJayhawk57]

So 2000s Buttrockers, Breaking Benjamin, are on tour with Alice in Chains and Bush. I guess they're all Classic Rock, now, right? I think it's hard to call any of the 3rd wave bands Buttrock at all because I don't consider any of the groups you listed as rock bands. Most don't get play on rock radio and barely on modern corporate alternative radio, they're pop acts. OneRepublic is fronted by one of the most prolific pop songwriters in Ryan Tedder. The 2000s groups like Seether, Breaking Benjamin, Nickelback, and Shinedown all played hard rock festivals. I would know, I saw all of them live at the yearly local rock festival in KC in my teens. Those groups all have pretty heavy songs. If you've ever heard some of Nickelback's non-radio releases, they're actually a pretty heavy band who put a few catchy songs on their albums to make a buck. I think Florence+the machine is folk/baroque rock and a far cry from Imagine Dragons. To me, Imagine Dragons and OneRepublic are corporate pop and more akin to modern producer driven pop than rock at all, though with elements of 80s arena rock. In the end, I don't think Buttrock is a real thing anymore, really. Almost all mainstream acts are producer and songwriting team driven shills, whereas those 2000s groups were overproduced but still actual bands, same thing in the 80s. Hard to have Buttrock when mainstream rock is currently pretty dead.

[@wellurban]

There’s a long history of derisory genre names that imply their fans are unsophisticated or undiscriminating: Brostep, Landfill Indie, Handbag House, perhaps Bubblegum Pop (though I’m not sure whether the last one was intended as an insult). Interestingly, genre names that imply particular sophistication seem mostly to be rejected by the artists that are so labelled, perhaps because they don’t want to seem to be pretentious. I think that’s the case with Prog Rock, Sophisti-pop and perhaps Math Rock, but I’m mostly thinking of IDM (“Intelligent Dance Music”). Most “IDM” artists (Aphex Twin, Autechre, Mira Calix, Black Dog) cringe at the term, and it’s certainly a term that implies snobbishness towards the rest of dance music. I don’t know if there’s an equivalent term to Butt Rock for dance music: perhaps Peak Time Techno and the aforementioned Brostep and Handbag House within those specific genres, and in general anything that happily embraces the “EDM” label probably counts as “Butt Dance Music”. But then again, dance music was always intended to get your butt moving!

[@NicolaiParsons]

The Bruce Lee metaphor really doesn't work, because while his work is somewhat crowd-pleasing, it's also not derivative. Arguably, while both Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris are great and their fight is amazing, in this metaphor, Chuck Norris is the Butt Rock to Bruce Lee's Head Rock. Chuck didn't set out to design an entirely new way to do what he did, he just became amazing at what was there, which is a massive achievement of its own and very similar to what Butt Rock Bands do. He wasn't reinventing moves, he was perfecting them and bringing them to the masses. Bruce Lee was that rare example of someone who did both, someone who was both popular and genre-defining.

[@endofradio3507]

We used to call this "General Rock". Like, the record store wouldn't put these LPs in a seperate section.... just stick them in "General Rock"

[@herrweiss2580]

separate*

[@endofradio3507]

@@herrweiss2580 Tadious wenker

[@herrweiss2580]

@@endofradio3507 Did I hurt your feelings?

[@Mewse1203]

"There seems to be entire genres that are really popular but nobody will admit to liking." Bands too. I have the perfect example: Nickelback. At one point they were the 11th top selling band in history and the number two top selling foreign act in the US behind point the MFing Beatles. And yet you could never find anybody who said they liked them....

[@AuraSight24]

Your description of the genesis of 3rd Wave Butt Rock lines up with the phenomenon Pop-Music critic Todd In The Shadows was, at the time, calling the "Fluke Indie Sweepstakes" Every so often we would get a "Some Nights", or "Radioactive" or "Pompeii" climbing the charts - Big, energetic songs that came seemingly out of nowhere, with an alternative/indie sound and mild pretention that was distinct from the mainstream pop of that time But before those songs, the "Fluke Indie Sweepstakes" began with radio oddities like "Pumped-Up Kicks" and "Somebody That I Used to Know" - Weird, introspective songs with compositions and thematic nuances that were completely unlike their contemporaries on the radio I think those Indie-Pop songs were the "Head Rock" that 3rd-Wave "Butt Rock" was following - they took the Pretention of the former, cranked the volume, and made it absolutely Grandiose "Some Nights" perfectly encapsulates that shift - thematically, it's a guy venting about his Quarter-Life Crisis, but it turns those feelings into an epic rallying Anthem for every 20-Something going through that same confusion and frustration Eventually, Todd acknowledged that he needed to drop the "Fluke Indie Sweepstakes" moniker because, well, it had just become the sound of mainstream Pop-Rock - It had become Butt Rock

[@ShadrachsGuitar]

8:40 This was the exact reason another butt-rock band, Daughtry, ended up completely changing their sound to the dismay of many fans with their 2013 album, Baptized.

[@Typical.Anomaly]

Never made it as a wise man Couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing

[@poupdujour]

Your punch analogy is so good, really brought the ideas said here together.

[@AwesomePaws13]

I've been thinking about this vid since seeing it for the first time, because I've recently fallen madly in love with Shinedown's stuff. I remember trying to refute the "there's no quiet introspective butt rock songs" to myself with them. And while they do get introspective, they are certainly not quiet. Even the "softer" songs still have such a huge sound to them (Call Me, Daylight, Special, so on and so forth). I also admittedly listened to an entire Nickelback album recently (Dark Horse), which made me think of this video again. Those darker aspects of butt rock that got touched on are what I believe is my main issue with any bands in the genre (at least with the 1st and 2nd wave). The over-glamourized "lifestyle" of a musician (toxic masculinity, hot women, drugs, etc.) is such a strong theme in a number of butt rock bands. For me personally, only three things can overcome that; presenting those ideas more artistically rather than plainly, deviate from those themes entirely, or SERIOUSLY knock my socks off with the instrumentals. And that Nickelback album? It hit on a few of those things pretty well! Genuinely enjoyed about half of the songs (including the two big hits off of this album! Burn It To The Ground, If Today Was Your Last Day). Literally only one song I disliked because of Kroeger's vocals being a bit too gravelly for my liking on it. Any other songs I disliked? It's because they did not step up to the plate on those points. Other than bias of loving how consistently smooth Brent Smith's vocals are, (and the simple answer of "I just like them, alright?"), this is arguably a big reason I love Shinedown. Those typical themes more sparse, and that space is instead typically filled with more raw emotion. Machismo isn't entirely gone from their lyrics, but it's not really the sole focus when it is present. Of course this is my personal thoughts and opinions, but as someone who's already used to catching flack for their music taste even before getting into butt rock, this video got me doing some introspection!

[@Roitame]

Damn. I'd never heard the term butt rock, but basically all of that is totally my jam, especially second wave. I never did get the meme of Nickelback being bad music

[@Lemanic89]

3rd Wave Buttrock has Brostep to thank for its production values. It’s the most direct response to the EDM wave the band format could conjure right out of the bat at the time. No closer inspection nor sophistication. It’s like the ‘80s with new wave again when Disco and Early Synth came and a lot of guitar-driven music made the decision to make Duran Duran hit makers. I think the novelty of EDM has finally died down and we will see much more sophisticated approaches towards the amalgamation of electronics and “real” instruments, just like when Rave culture arrived and seamlessly blended with the indie rock circuit at the time. I yearn for a blend of Outsider House and Djent that doesn’t go for the gloss of electronics earlier attempts at blending said electronics with guitar-driven music has tried to make.

[@josephjimorris]

I get this (as an old school EDM participant) and I appreciate it. Early 00’s proto-dubstep sounds totally foreign next to brostep. I used to be a jerk and super pedantic about the purity of electronic music genres. I got so upset when outsiders called everything “techno” when it CLEARLY wasn’t. Lol

[@007bistromath]

Butt rock is sort of the definition of "bad because it's popular." Hardly anyone really *likes* butt rock, but few people actually hate it enough to leave the room. That makes it, by nature if not intent, commercial. It's bar music, and this is why. It's the soundtrack for selling beer and trucks, and this is why. It being commercial is why we make fun of it; it is by definition overexposed compared to its quality. It has those little moments that steal from head rock, and that's practically all of what's listenable. The rest is just hissy sonic cardboard with nasty, grunty vocals and it's so easy to hate. But if somebody insists on listening to it, it's not bad enough to bother picking a fight over it. Commercials use oversaturation as a lockpick for your brain. Advertisers are known to run extensive focus groups and data mining to determine how to direct and divert your attention. It wouldn't be a lucrative industry if it didn't work. So, we don't *hate* it, but we make fun of it because we know it's bad for us. It is the soda of music. It's physically impossible not to like it just a little bit sometimes, it's sugar water. That's why it's bad!

[@pentalarclikesit822]

Seriously, though, while I am one of the last ones to get snobby over it, (I primarily listen to metal, grunge, experimental, alternative, industrial etc, the "artsier" the better) I've listened to an enjoyed quite a bit of "butt rock" mainly in specific songs. (Imagine Dragons' "Believer" Nickelback's "Never Again" and Motley Crue's "Dr. Feelgood" to give an example from each "wave"). But I think when we say, "It's ok to just have fun and not care about the seriousness of the art." we shouldn't confuse that with "That makes it just as much art as the fancy stuff." If you say, "I like Poison better than Tool," that's an opinion, and no less "right" than "I like Tool better than Poison." But if you say, "Poison has the same artistic power, influence, and meaning as Tool," that to me *is* objectively wrong. Grunge came about (and revolutionized music, despite what a lot of people now say) not just because people got sick of the theatricality of hair metal, but also because of the misogyny, constant bragging, open desire to make money before making art, bragging about how much money you have and how good you look, etc. Making art about how rich and handsome you are is far weaker subject matter than *actual important issues.* I also don't think it's as much of a definable thing as others. When I think "butt rock" I specifically think of what you call second wave butt rock. The thing is, though, I agree that you can't define a genre by what it isn't, and I think that is what we are doing here. Because as you've said and I agree there is also a culture to a genre, and there simply isn't the same culture in the first or second waves. Butt rock is what you get called PC for not liking. I think we would have to have more of a definition of sound and composition to define it as a genre. It can't just be "music that takes the music forms of but rejects the artistic forms of the previous major rock genre." Otherwise, there is no real way to define it: Let's use grunge for an example. If a band creates music intending to be a grunge band, but the music happens to be 1) more accessible 2) less emotionally or intellectually complex or just 3) more successful, does that make them butt rock? Does it depend on how many people think they aren't "true" enough? Does that make Candlebox butt rock? Yeah I can't see it by the sound. Stone Temple Pilots? Maybe, but I wouldn't think so. Pearl Jam? Nah. But I can see some people saying so under that criteria (and all of those bands were considered less "true" at their time than some contemporaries.(Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden). But where does it end? What about Mudhoney? Certainly seems to fit some of the criteria, but no one would call them butt rock. If we want to calling something butt rock to have any more weight than "arena rock people don't admit they like" then it has to *mean* more than that.

[@TheRealLetharos]

Pausing and 4:14 to say "whoa dude. I distinctly remember "nothing but rock" on the 95 KGGO classic rock station as a kid in the late 80s into the 90s." This is in Des Moines, Iowa. They also used the tag line "classic rock that rocks" as well. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk. Back to the goodies.

[@moosechoose]

I’d classify butt rock as cheesy post-grunge and watered down nu metal/alt rock from the late 90s to the late 2000s. Anything before that I just think of as “dad rock” and anything after that is just millennial pop “rock”

[@ryanshinermusic]

Metalcore and nu metal are the closest thing to modern butt rock

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

Yeah including hair and glam metal (as well as pop rock bands like Fun and Imagine Dragons???) in the butt rock category didn’t really work for me, even if other people have classified them as such.

[@Foolian1332]

I always get a kick out of your illustrative associations, but I really love that Abra represents "headiness" to you

[@rocketgeek96]

To answer your questions at the start: 1) Commercial Alternative Rock, usually but not always labeled Post-Grunge, that can range from 1994-2008, but more likely falls in between 1998-2005. 2) The songs I associate the most are songs like Kryptonite, Headstrong, and Wasting My Time. 3) The bands, though. Easily Nickelback, with (dis?)honorable mentions to Theory of a Deadman, Staind, and Puddle of Mudd. 4) Butt Rock Recipe. Take 2-3 guitars and tune to Drop D. (Downtune to lower Drops if necessary) Turn on distortion just enough so that a simple power chord sounds midway between a growling upset stomach and the worst fart you'll ever produce. Tune bass accordingly. Compress the ever-living crap out of the audio in post, and if you don't see a sausage, go further. Play instruments as basic as you can, periodically adding fills and solos to trick yourself into believing you're still real rock. Only play 4 chord pop songs. Write the simplest lyrics you can while still attaining regular radio airplay. Sing as bad an impression of grunge as you can get away with. (Note: If between 1994-2000, yarl like Eddie Vedder. If between 2001-2008, scream like Kurt Cobain.) Congratulations. You're now the bane of mid-morning traffic. 5) They look like your average dads. Flannel recedes with time as the overwhelming averageness of these bands becomes more apparent. T-shirts, jeans, regular shoes. Also, the worst haircuts you'll ever see. Like, period. 6) Beer Dads, Biker Moms, listeners of your local station that "ONLY PLAYS REAL ROCK, BRO!," and anyone unfortunate enough to have to endure both them and their blaring speakers.

[@ryanfraley7113]

Playing a PRS Custom 24 into a Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier because anyone could dial in cool high gain sounds, even someone bad at playing can still sound relatively decent.

[@zackakai5173]

11:24 a better point here is that the posited third wave followed the 2000s where bands like MCR, Green Day (circa American Idiot), Paramore, Coheed and Cambria, and other bands in the whole alternative/emo/whatever you want to call it sphere of rock were extremely popular among rock fans who *weren't* into the second wave of butt rock.

[@matthewcox7985]

This is the first I've heard the term, "Butt Rock," and it seems to fit that definition. Lowest common denominator. I saw someone else's comment about "Butt Rap", and I think the definition can be applied very broadly. Head vs Butt, Innovative vs Fun. And can we just take a moment to appreciate 12tone's drawing skill... and all the characters he sketches during his discussions!

[@chrisstavridis6355]

I smiled at 'Psychologists' and burst out laughing at 'Obsession'. I love some of the surprising choices for his sketches.

[@sashaknight5142]

Commenting just to say that I really appreciate using a razor to convey "the simplest explanation." Definitely got a smile out of me :)

[@gravelinacup]

Okay hear me out, is Big Band Swing actually early Butt Rock? I know it originated before many forms of jazz, but it generally is less heady than other jazz genres, more about the energy, mass appeal, the artists don't dress extravagantly, and what is a multitracked guitar but a modern horn ssction playing in unison? Kind of a random thought I had, but it was fun to think! Edit: Oh Oh Oh, action movies are the Butt Rock of Cinema!!!!

[@theonly764hero1]

Big Band Swing was actually the starting point for what would later become Pop; Michael Jackson, Madonna, The Backstreet Bots, Katie Perry, Lady Gaga.

[@trvekvlt7196]

Movies like XXX, Transporter, and Fast & Furious are the exact cinematic equivalent to butt rock. Same audience, same indulgences, same shallow and macho tendencies, same golden age. They’re both a not-so-guilty pleasure of mine

[@AustinOnSugar]

To me butt-rock is just a slightly heavier, dirtier post-grunge follow-up to glamrock. Glam was about bright, echoey loudness and butt is about dark, gritty distortion, but they both want to be in your face and _dramatically_ expressive. Comparing Hardline's Rhythm From A Red Car to Crush 40's Open Your Heart - both songs with the same singer btw - highlights that difference well for me. Edit: After watching, I'm surprised I had no idea there was a first wave that more or less birthed what I above called glam rock. That's interesting! I do appreciate the observation of the third wave, too. Interested in seeing where that goes in future.

[@fatteneddessert]

i’ve always viewed the 3rd wave of butt rock that you mentioned to be kinda fake? i don’t know how to describe it. fake probably isn’t the right word. it’s also kind of weird since i like a lot of the elements individually. more electronic takes on rock music? hell yeah i love brainiac, nine inch nails, xiu xiu. silly themes or lyrics that don’t really have much to say about them? completely okay! cardiacs, cows and more recently viagra boys did that sometimes and they’re really great inspiration from styles like edm and electronic? that’s never something to look down on, especially since it relates to the history of black and queer music. hip hop, and early industrial acts like throbbing gristle, and nurse with wound. there’s a rich history to uncover from both the most abrasive and the most catchy out of them. being pop music? pop music is great! nothing wrong with pop music it’s just for my personal taste it can feel kind of sickeningly sweet i’m a way to have overproduced electronic rock that has really nothing *i find* notable enough to latch on to. i don’t really enjoy it, doesn’t make it bad, but it’s really not for me.

[@lanceuppercut_]

I agree

[@Patrick-857]

It's the indie hipster sound, which is awful enough as it is, fused with pop to create a overblown commercial abomination. Basically the worst aspects of commercial and modern hipster rock combined. I actually enjoy the Nickelback style bands, the post grunge thing, and some of the 80s stuff, but I can't stand what I think of as "soyboy rock". Aside from being boring, having no interesting ideas or themes, it chooses annoying sounds and the vocals are just lame sounding. Rock is meant to be aggressive, passionate, raw. Not this.

[@ryanfraley7113]

@@Patrick-857 What bands would you define as soy boy? Some that got labeled as that like the Pixies and Sonic Youth were actually incredible in a low key way. They had massive influence on much harder grunge bands like Nirvana and Alice In Chains.

[@Patrick-857]

@@ryanfraley7113 I'm not talking about the OG indie and alt rock bands like you mentioned. I'm talking about modern hipster music. I'm talking about the stuff where they use tape plugins to distort the vocals and use tons of expensive gear to try and sound retro, ect ect. You have heard it. I get forced to listen to it at work on the radio, but I struggle to name a particular band. I'm talking about stuff from the last decade or so.

[@ryanfraley7113]

@@Patrick-857 Music has died because the complexity got stripped from it. That’s more societal in my book. Compare the ancient church hymns to contemporary Christian music. The complexity in CCM was almost 0 and this shift happened before the mainstream shift away from complexity happened. Even music in orchestra like Ode To Joy out of the 9th symphony from Beethoven was underlie with Christian themes. Also organs being replaced by bands in churches specifically in evangelical churches. All this was a precursor.

[@FullOnGritz]

As a connoisseur of butt rock analysis I am deeply disappointed in the KZbin algorithm for not recommending this to me :P

[@jmacd8817]

I’m 52, have been listening to rock, punk and pop for my entire life. I have never heard of butt rock. I feel so alone… (I’ve seen Deep Purple, Crosby Stills & Nash, Gordon Lightfoot, Dizzy Gillespie, as well as Foster the People, in concert. Loved them all)

[@bawitback]

Absolutely one of my favorite styles!

[@PuddleOfPizza]

Butt Rock to me always came off as a derogatory term that people would use to describe nu-metal and post-grunge bands they didn't like, Think Nickelback, Creed, Three Days Grace, Seether, Staind and Puddle Of Mudd for instance. I'm not gonna pretend like these bands don't have their issues (They typically aren't good at making full fledged albums), But I don't think they're nearly as terrible as people make them out to be and I like their singles usually. Some are better than others of course, But they've all got their highs and lows. I guess if I had to name some of my favorites they would be: Godsmack, Shinedown, Puddle Of Mudd, Staind, and Chevelle

[@ChrisRash]

My thoughts exactly. I've heard Shinedown put in the butt rock category. I can't see how they fit there.

[@erikziak1249]

OK, what you call Butt Rock I call Pop Rock. Popular Rock. Rock that is being played on the radio, using all the things that make Rock popular. Like easy riffs and the feeling of being at a concert.

[@flugshub8873]

I 100% believe the late 2010's saw "butt rap" in full force

[@HeathenHammer80]

I love your videos right up to the point where you start worrying about people being offended. That’s on them. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. People use offense recreationally, so it’s never prudent to opine on the offense you may, or may not have given.

[@Attivian]

"Butt Rock" comes from mainstream radio stations that play "Nothing But Rock" and its generally airplay friendly rock that can appeal to large masses.

[@lukelyall5879]

I also use the term “butt rock” to apply to any music that’s censored by the record labels or by tv like Warner records, roadrunner, mudvayne, staind, soad (partially byob isn’t censored) ratm (partially killing in the name isn’t censored) and many more examples: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5DGqph8ZcScpas m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3rUk5eklrWWipo m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5mleX9pq5mXaas m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/kH6xZGqIaL6VbsU m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnSlgaCunruAgc0

[@chazmania3644]

2:56

[@jpob5]

Should the first wave actually be the late 70s stuff like Kiss, Boston, Styx and Journey or would that be more the roots of Butt Rock. Also, I think Pop Punk should be a part of wave 2. Lyrically it has more in common with hair metal than punk and also has those big choruses that we associate with Butt Rock.

[@MrWill9894]

Yes!!! Pop punk has a lot more in common with hair metal than just lyrics or choruses. The image, the marketing to young women, the fact that they’re the poppier offshoot of a more aggressive genre. That’s why it always gets me confused when people (cough, Punk Rock MBA) criticize hair metal but applaud pop punk, as though they aren’t more or less the same

[@LonkinPork]

[Editing to add: ah, so I've only ever known "butt rock" to be applied to _second-wave_ butt rock] having been born within a couple years of Kurt Cobain's passing, I and my friends growing up always treated "butt rock" as being synonymous with "post-grunge," which we also treated as synonymous with Nu Metal, but with derision. "Butt Rock" to me has always been bands like Nickelback, Creed, Staind, Buckcherry, Velvet Revolver, Saliva, Hinder, and I'm sure if I sat here long enough I could spit out 40 more bands. But the key thing is that it was *_never_* bands with critical praise behind them. SoaD and Deftones, despite sharing the sonic palette, aren't Butt Rock.

[@Pbnj1379]

Same here and you gave good examples.

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

I much prefer your definition to this video’s conclusion. “First wave butt rock” is the most far-reaching way that I’ve ever seen hair metal classified. I don’t think the term *Butt Rock* was ever made up because it was supposed to highly praise the artists. To your point, the fact that the this video equates the genre to 3 distinct other genres (hair metal, post-grunge, and modern pop rock) makes it all the more clear to me that it’s a negative moniker for the bands in their respective genres. Honestly, I feel like this video over-explains it and ignores the fact that it is mostly a derisive term given to bands that portray a certain persona on and off stage.

[@KennethWestervelt]

Butt Rock can be traced back to bands of the 1970s that drew crowds and disappointed music writers: Uriah Heep, Grand Funk Railroad, and every one hit wonder with a chorus that went G-D-C. Probably further still to whatever music that jazz drummer Buddy Rich didn't like.

[@martinsanchez4827]

By far the best and most nuanced video I have watched on butt rock. Great vid man!