What is Christianity? Ehrman-Harris Podcast

[@kevintangney1849]

Bart Ehrman is a brilliant man. I could listen to him for hours.

[@shujah4ever]

I learned alot about Christianity from Professor Bart D. Ehrman books. Its all eyes opening. King James version of the new Testament was completed in 1611 by 8 members of the church of England. There were (and still are) no original texte to translate. The oldest manuscript Christian have were written down hundreds of years after the last apostle died. There are over 8,000 of those old manuscripts, with no two alike. The King james translators used non of these, anyway. Instead, they edited previous translations to create a version their King and Parliament would approve. So, 21st Century Christian believe the "Words of God" is a book edited in the 17th Century from 16th Century translations of 8,000 contradictory copies of 4th Century scrolls that claim to be copies of lost letters written in the 1st Century. No wonder Professor Bart D. Ehrman left the faith.

[@rainxp1318]

Have you ever checked out the opposing side though? It’s good to know all arguments and come to your own conclusion!

[@AtamMardes]

"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible." Mark Twain

[@rayhill5767]

Let’s get washed in the blood! No

[@turinhorse]

Sam Harris and Bart Ehrman are 2 of the most important people among us right now. Voices of reason and humanity we desperately need.

[@j919or]

you and they are idiots to the infinite degree

[@teresawhite9628]

Turin horse - don't worry about these ignorant haters like Johnny A...Sam Harris has knowledge of science AND religion that Johnny couldn't possibly understand...feel sorry for him...

[@MendTheWorld]

Johnny A The sheer weight of your incisive claim is infinitely compelling.

[@MeanmnachAodh]

@@j919or How so?

[@motiforyeshua5409]

I'm interested in knowing why? 😂

[@eversosleight]

As a Christian, I really enjoyed the discussion. I'm glad that Bart, agnostic, is willing to grant major apologetic points made by believers. Thanks to Bart and Sam!

[@jaylinn416]

Jorge Anido Same here. I am as committed Christian as one can get and I enjoyed this podcast. Sam Harris is a good interviewer.

[@yogi_theMAN]

Are any of you people listening to yourselves? Are any of you listening to this audio? Do a little bit of research about what Bart is saying, you’d be surprised. I’ve found many altercations between the writings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus. This guy knows quite a lot and you might benefit from listening to them, instead of casting them to the side as non-believers who’s only goal is to disbelieve. If you have problems with what they say, study up! The internet and resources for these subjects are quite easy to acquire. Defend your argument, point by point. If these men are truly deluded, prove it!

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

I have absolutely studied such claims because of pseudo Christian groups who make those claims. It is a misunderstanding or it is a refusal to harmonize the text, and keeping it consistent in the contents. Considering g the different writers I formation in light of the others and committing to the hermeneutics concept of interpreting consistently. Only having to presume it was consistent among church leaders because of the facts in the history. They would have councils to work these things out. And such things were recorded. Not to mention what Peter says about what some do to twist Pauls writings "which can be hard to understand."

[@matthewkopp2391]

I don't think Bart or Sam are deluded. But just for the record one of the things Paul wrote in regards to his Christian ideas was to "test the ideas by the evidence" and "use sober discernment". And he also used Socratic arguments. And in the USA once upon a time Churches had highly educated non-literalists philosopher theologians like Paul Tillich, Martin Luther King Jr, and Thomas Merton. They were a great threat to multiple established powers and the Republican Party then legitimized the Biblical literalists. I take much of Bart's perspective But I don't consider myself an atheist, in general an ongoing student of comparative religion. But the decline of mainline churches and the rise of the fundamentalists was a coordinated political effort.

[@rruss81]

I've listened to this podcast several times and Ehrman does an excellent job supporting his argument with facts and evidence. Very insightful. I plan to buy the book.

[@charliedurham4248]

This is the least amount of talking Sam Harris has ever had on his podcast. He must have a great deal of respect for Ehrman's knowledge

[@anthonyinzerillo3882]

Been listening to Dr. Ehrman for some years now & I'd love to sit in on his classes even though in I'm 49 & live in NJ.

[@dakrontu]

There is something seriously wrong with the idea of a god who continually allows new people to be born knowing that the majority of them are all going to rot in hell forever. Any sensible god would figure out, after a short while, that what he is doing is insanely cruel. . Reminds me of a fellow computer programmer who kept running a program that would always crash our computer system. I asked him why, when he knew what would happen, he continued to run it. He said 'because it is not supposed to crash'. One would hope that a god would be more intelligent in running his own creation.

[@Jonnyvids14]

"The reason I stopped being a Christian was because I no longer could account for how there could be so much pain and suffering in the world if there's a God who's in charge of it" Bart, have you ever considered that we do have a Creator, but that Creator is NOT in charge of this earth, or the pain and suffering that we see and experience on this earth? Just something to ponder brother. LOVE your teachings and your honesty.

[@Blackadder75]

'Turtles all the way down' aka a creator doesn't help answer the question. Who created the creator etc.

[@nextworld9176]

A person can believe in an intelligent creator separate from an ever-watchful god. After all, when He said ‘Let US make man in our own image’, who was He talking to? But walking on water and raising the dead are going too far. All lies and myths.

[@motiforyeshua5409]

Have you ever considered there is no free will without pain lol 🤣🤣🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ I think. You weren't taught a real Christian who has the Holy Spirit but rather you fell for the church buildings religion hocus pocus babel satanic doctrines lol sorry but this makes me laugh. Bart wasted all His time studying Hebrew to read the "masorets scripts". Lol the real manuscripts exist in and are preserved in English for thou do of years now lol foolish men make foolish choices 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@philhmp4231]

It's a joy listening to two highly articulate knowledgeable intellects unclog such a clogged up subject as the origins of Christianity. Sam asked all the right questions and Bart responded to them brilliantly from a position of sincere in depth knowledge. Fascinating stuff.

[@DouwedeJong]

I love the quote: Solving the contradictions in the bible is like solving a puzzle. You assume the puzzle is correct."

[@j919or]

i can crush any attempts to prove a contradiction in the bible

[@j919or]

you cant prove a single one

[@nextworld9176]

Johnny A I think no one will bother to challenge your dare, because simply by saying that, you’ve shown you don’t understand the Bible at all.

[@MendTheWorld]

Johnny A I laughed, which I don't do enough of. You seem to feel that "assuming the puzzle is correct" represents some sort of noble endeavor. I wonder at what point in time you jumped on the merry-go-round? Does circular reasoning ever make you dizzy?

[@brookendale3611]

@@j919or I used to be like you! read the nativity stories in luke and matthew. if you don't see the contradiction in those stories, then you WILL never be able to see other problems in the bible

[@misspittypat72]

Thank you Bart and Sam for a thoughtful, honest discussion. Unfortunately, judging from some of the comments below, some of those who heard this discussion are having a hard time understanding the difference between a theological and historical approach to the texts upon which Christianity depends. I can remember being taught that I should not read Bible scholars because their intent was to destroy faith in the Gospel story. It is a credit to your teaching methods, Dr.. Ehrman, if none of your students' or their parents have complained that you are destroying their children's faith. I look forward to more discussions between you two.

[@OktoberFilms]

Made me kind of sad when they discussed the social implications of coming out as an atheist. Damn, am I glad I was born in secular Europe where we don’t have this Jesus nonsense pushed down our throat. Yes, there are religious people over here, but believing in god is a choice and nobody cares when you don’t.

[@thesolarengineer]

Right. Aloha Snackbar 💥💥💥

[@cjtjets5941]

Religion in the US is about money it's a multibillion dollar industry that pays no taxes . The worlds biggest con job selling eternal life and protection from eternal torture. If we took all the money that we give to religious organizations which mostly goes towards keeping the clergy comfortable and a small stipend for charity work, we could end world hunger . What a shame people can't let go of what we now know are ridiculous theist beliefs. People didn't know any better 1 or 2 thousand years ago when scientific discoveries had not been made sure we believed in noahs ark story because we didn't have science to debunk it, now we have overwhelming evidence it was impossible. Yet people can't let the fairytales that were pounded in their heads as children go. Try logic,reason scientific evidence while reading the bible and you will come to the conclusion that this is BULLSHIT try it sometime soon you will realize you've been conned

[@hamoudi_d]

To all the Christians watching: There is no Christiantity within the teachings of Jesus. Neither did he command people to found a new religion nor did he do it yourself. Christianity is men made.

[@WatashiRyoKun]

@BladeRunner1669 it's okay to feel that, but pray to a Higher Intelligence (being), if you are a theist and ask him to guide you. Whether that be Buddha, Jesus, Allah, or the thousand of Hindu Gods... but.. Just ask for guidance :) at least if there is something after life then you've made a choice. (p.s. be open hearted on it, don't say any name for that being as well just believe that something is there and breathe slowly too(to relax))

[@davidk5954]

It is. Same for islam, Muhammad was a bloody warlord and slave trader

[@brenosantana1458]

Only the father is God.

[@jeffdunnage9971]

Bart is so much more relaxed here talking to Sam Harris than in any of his other videos. Best explanation of his work in my opinion.

[@pedjazoo]

Jeff Dunnage Different format though. This was a conversation, not a debate. But yes, surprising to hear him not raising his voice and shouting like a maniac 😂

[@adrianjanssens7116]

I agree, but when he gets worked up in discussing suffering during debates he hits one home run after another. He's my new Hitch.

[@alittleofeverything4190]

Did Jesus preach love and forgiveness for humans? Then why isn't God like that?

[@kcdad2806]

Let's talk about Davey Crockett. People in Texas , Tennessee, and Washington D.C. had stories about him. FIRST HAND or SECOND HAND. Let's imagine that these three groups each wrote a story about Crockett's life. The book of Texas, the Book of Tennessee, and the Book of D.C. They would have some things in common, some things different, and some ratio of facts, and mythology. Those are the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. People in Alaska write a book about Crockett- that is John's gospel. These books may have been written, years, decades or even a century later, but they are based on tales/stories passed on since times contemporary to Crockett's life and death. Did Davey "kill him a bear when he was only three"? Did he "knowed every tree"?

[@truethinker221]

That is why it is so rich.

[@Grandpa_Boxer]

If one is questioning or on the fence about their faith, this interview is jammed packed with enlightening and compelling information. Riveting!!! Two awesome minds!!

[@CitizenLutz]

Mr. Ehrman is indeed quite the biblical scholar but when it comes to making political judgments he's no better than junior varsity and I'm being generous with that.

[@ashesfalldown492]

Hearing Sam Harris talk about what the majority think of the afterlife made me think of my grandmother as a SDA. When her son died suddenly when I was a child, I used Christianese or what I understood as Christian beliefs to comfort her. I didn’t believe it, even then I was nebulous on the whole Jesus as Messiah idea. But I tried to make her feel better using language I heard before. “He is in heaven, in a better place and not in pain” (he died of acute leukemia within weeks of diagnosis and it was bad. She told me the idea of what Ehrman was talking about, how he is in the ground awaiting Judgement Day and I was horrified. I remember being told these beliefs were supposed to be a way to handle issues like grief, how, how could this belief bring peace to anyone. She stared at me aghast when I spoke this aloud of course. And I remember thanking my mom silently for raising me “Methodist,” and not freaking out when I feel out. So while Harris is right many believers have the wrong idea. Bits of Christendom have a very much more approximation of how Ehrman describes it than one would think.

[@mugdays]

Two of my favorite people! I hope you go back on his podcast to talk more specifically about your work.

[@priscilladesantiago1191]

Omg what took me so long to find you! This is my story, well your story but also mine, raised Christian, Christian school k-8 , joined campus life in high school, was born again. Not a practicing Christian now but so scared of going to hell. And I’m learning so much . I’m 37 years old. And so confused and so wanting to understand and learn and do there search myself instead of being a mindless follower.

[@adrianjanssens7116]

Hang in there Priscilla. Good for you to break free from your indoctrination. I removed a layer of BS from my life and am better off in every aspect.

[@alittleofeverything4190]

I was like you too. When I turned 33 I told myself that this was the age that I had to truly decide what I would die for, as I had thought that that was the age Jesus fully understood what he would die for. I chose logic and reason and intellectual integrity instead of faith. I would die for those principles. Faith is a distraction really now that I'm older than 33 of course. My life, relationships, career, my moral compass, and everything that's important to me and my family has gained much more focus and purpose since making that decision. Good luck on your journey.

[@Mountains8888]

@@alittleofeverything4190 if you had any logic and reason you would’ve chosen to follow Christ. Christianity not only has moral truth but a ton of historical backing to support it’s claim that Jesus rose from the dead. None of these atheists will ever touch that topic in a forum with sources because it is a losing battle. The deck is stacked against anyone who tries to give any other explanation except that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead. Use your logic and reason to look into that because nothing else matters. No other faith rides on a claim that can be proven false because no other faith can pass that test. Christ has and always will pass that test.

[@Mountains8888]

Priscilla you should take a deep dive into the Christian faith from a historical standpoint so you can see that there is an incredible amount of truth to the claims the Bible makes. Our faith hangs on Christ rising from the dead and if he didn’t then we should be pitied more than anyone. Really look into the resurrection because these guys don’t have an answer for the facts that we have. The fact that the tomb was empty, the fact that many claimed to see him alive, the fact that all his followers went to their gruesome deaths and never recanted, and finally the fact that a man like Paul who was a Pharisee who hunted and killed Christians had an overnight change of heart and became a father of the faith at a huge cost! None of the followers had anything to gain by spreading the message of Jesus’ resurrection so why do it? Please look into it and find your salvation through Christ. God bless you

[@nonprogrediestregredi1711]

Priscilla, I grew up in a Catholic household; I am now an atheist in my forties. Don't be afraid of going to hell. Hell is human construct that has no empirical evidence of existing. I've been studying the contextualized historicity of the Hebrew and Christian bibles for about a decade by reading and/or listening to scholars, historians and archaeologists. Christianity has its antecedents, as does Judaism. They are both religions that borrowed narratives, concepts and rituals from surrounding cultures. I always say that christianity is more about psychology than salvation, as displayed by your engrained fear of hell. It's usually, in my experience, the last and most difficult thing to let go of. If you want to know more about what I have learned, the scholars I have learned from, or the evidence that they have, let me know. Take care.

[@lynisamarks7349]

Excellent! Thanks to the both of you for getting together! I live 30-40 mins away from Chapel Hill, and I love knowing this professor is teaching the history of Christianity and raising questions among his students!

[@fadedglory1045]

Could listen to these brilliant men for hours. Just did!

[@CurlyGirl37]

Neither Harris nor Ehrman know or care about you Faded Glory. Read the the Bible (cover to cover) for yourself, get to know the God who actually does care about you and make up your own mind. When you die (as we will all do alone) your decision will be of utmost importance. “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. ” John 3:16‭-‬21 NLT

[@rainxp1318]

@@CurlyGirl37 Amen!!!

[@ajmalsarwar2939]

Funny listening to all the Christian comments playing the man and not the ball.

[@barkYdarkATFB]

@Ajmal Sarwar as per usual, the comments under a Harris video. Ad hominem is the most popular style of comment, as there is generally no good argument against the topic content.

[@cwdor]

@Huhmongus ..... Christianity is not from the Jews,. Christianity is from Satan.... repent accept Jahovah and do good works

[@angelmoncada382]

Funny, I didn't know comments could be Christian.

[@javierborda8684]

You just did the same...

[@javierborda8684]

barkYdarkATFB you just did the same...

[@thescoobymike]

I'm not even Christian anymore but I hate the term "Common Era"

[@francescobar9052]

So, in synthesis, Jesus was a country preacher who had some success with the folksy people of Galilee. That went to his head and he thought of himself as the prophesied 'messiah', champion of god on earth, etc. Went to Jerusalem expecting to duplicate his success on a far larger scale but failed at his first test, at the temple, where he misunderstood the function served by the coin-exchanger and caused an unnecessary ruckus. He was wacked by the Romans who didn't like people who disturbed the already fragile peace. His followers (at least, some of them) didn't want to admit they had been wrong and - as modern believers of imminent ends of the world do when the dates pass without apocalypse - they invented an incredibly complicated theology (three gods for the price of one, etc) to justify their choices. And that was the beginning of the most widespread religion on Earth. I wonder what some observers from outer spaces would take from this as basis for their opinion on humanity...

[@cristianfcao]

Fantastic interview! Next time I'm introducing you (Bart Ehrman) and your work to somebody, I think I'll be linking this interview. The amount of topics you've covered is amazing! I hope you "visit" Sam again with your next book on the afterlife.

[@___-yi4pe]

For anyone who is interested, the view of what the Bible is saying at around 31:00 minutes into this video actually has an alternative. It may be the case that the 'judgement' that Jesus was speaking of was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which was the end of Israel as the genealogies are now all lost, meaning that the events foretold in Revelation may have already happened, Within the Bible's own context, it's the story about the salvation of Israel, not humanity on the whole, as the only ones given God's laws is said to be the nation of Israel. Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour, but he also said (to the people he was speaking to in person within the story) that it would be happening in THEIR generation. The "gentiles" were Israel's straying people, who no longer followed the laws, but were Israel by blood, the lost sheep of Israel, scattered among the nations. Hence why they were not circumcised etc. Even in the OT not all descriptions used are literal, but referred to the nature of what was going to happen (the raising of bones as a reference to the return to Zion), and it seems that Revelation wasn't either with the prophetic imagery, as the story of the Bible fits together perfectly in this way, rather than thinking it's in the future. It would make sense as throughout the Old Testament, judgment was of a material nature. Please research into this, some who explore this view call it the Israel Only view or IO, but you can also look into the idea of full preterism. If this is what the Bible was actually communicating than that means it's been misunderstood for centuries, or purposefully twisted. I'm not saying this is exactly what the Bible is saying, but it makes a lot of sense and is worth investigating imo.

[@drgeorgek]

I love listening to this non Sunday mornings when I “should be” at church.... have listened to this many times and never tire of this discussion

[@stacielivinthedream8510]

This deserves so many more views!!!! Great interview and information! Thank you!

[@AndreAy1975]

Stance on mythicists is disappointing. Calling someone fringe is bad style and not an argument. Calling Josephus a source is not good, because the line about Jesus in Josephus might have been a later forgery. The argument about the 12 apostles including Jude becoming rulers is also bad. A much simpler expanation would be that the writer of that line messed up the consistency of the story. It happens all the time in large bodies of fiction like Harry Potter or Star Trek. The brother of Jesus as also been answered by Carrier as meaning a brother in Christ, not in the flesh. Why are we annoyed with all these outdated and answered arguments?

[@ZengaGuitar]

Mythicists cannot explain Paul referring to James, Jesus Brother. I used to be one, but I read some of the literature about the topic, and there isn't really a debate in Academia right now about that, internet is not a good representation of the debate.

[@Linge88]

I thought the same thing about Josephus.

[@andrewpauley4418]

Look up historyforatheists.com for a response to Carrier's arguments. Also, look up a list of fallacies and check if you didn't use some fallacious arguments yourself.

[@truethinker221]

And your degree is from ---

[@entwood]

Don't look up History For Atheists. It's a blog written by a guy with a grudge against Carrier. Try Vridar and Carrier's own blog for articles which address the heart of the arguments on historicity. It looks pretty bad for the historical Jesus.

[@ce2161]

Hello Dr. Ehrman, I’m a Christian and all I have to say is great work. You’ve told the truth on what you believe and what we have regarding the Bible. I know this may be surprising to you but, your work is actually growing my faith in Christianity. I hope you a blessed. Thank you for your work and thank you for the problems with the New Testament and curtain aspects of Christianity. The problems you presented are the problems I want to fix and get an answer to. Also, I’ll be working on all the supposed contradictions in the Bible that people seem to see. With all respect, you are truly motivating me to work hard on the Bible. I hope you can one day find the answers to the problems you presented or I can help you find some answers if you want. I really wish you could (when you a satisfied with the answers) come back to Christianity. Your work is amazing. God bless you sir.

[@johnmakovec5698]

He already probably know the excuses.

[@chriscunliffe1542]

Your post reminds me of a flat earther who is shown the curvature of the earth and then says that seeing the curvature of the earth strengthens my belief in a flat earth. Utterly irrational

[@redlightspellsdanger7177]

Chidi Evuchaiwe can I also recommend the works of the Grimm Brothers to add to your fiction collection....

[@godofthunder24]

Bart will change his mind when you get the second coming i.e. never.

[@vijayjagpaul459]

I am one happy camper. I was not forced up in religion and church by my parents.

[@ironjohnlad]

Sam Harris was a good interviewer on this.And Bart presents his arguments in a clear concise way that is understandable and clear. Underneath these issues discussed, are the metaphysical questions, concerning the nature and purpose of the universe, ( if any ), whether materialists are right, or if a greater intelligence is at work, and the nature of that intelligence, the unfolding of history, where we come from and where we are now, and were we are heading, whether consciousness transcends the death of the body, or whether there really is a resurrection at the end of the age, ( the Pharisees believed this ) or if reincarnation, heaven and or hell exist. The nature of good and evil, and how all of this plays out in our society our communities and our individual lives. Bart afferms Love as the basis of our lives, and I agree with that. However for me the nature of evil, hatred, deception, are problematic when used as arguments against spiritual realities. By what measure do we judge this issues ? If there is no higher truth, then its all a matter of programing, and we call what is good, evil and what is evil, good. We sow in the wind and reap the whirlwind.

[@hjb-1g8]

Very good interview. Both Sam and Bart is very knowledgeable. Worth watching

[@pcb8059]

I finally got to Heaven only to realize Empathy, Compassion, Mercy, Forgivness, Love are all Forbidden Sins while thinking about my nieghbors in Hell.

[@palma8415]

Exactly, how does it make sense to love someone and be ok with them being in hell (forever).

[@zedwms]

I can relate to Prof. Ehrman. I don't have his education, but I have his Christian experience, including the position of that experience in the past. I was a Christian for 30 years, active and well-studied, before leaving, 11 years ago. Of course I saw good times, but I also saw many things that were contradictory and untenable. Ironically, though, it was the "well-studied" part of my Christianity that ultimately illuminated the exit door for me. Today I tend to lean more toward the Jesus-never-existed end of the spectrum, but of course, that doesn't mean I doubt the existence of a higher intelligence. I just highly doubt that it's the Christian god, or any other misguided human attempt to describe a higher intelligence. Because we must put names to these things, though, I call it the circum-psyche.

[@RoseSharon7777]

Jesus is metaphor for the elect chosen martyers/prophets/high priests/judges/servants/kings. The princes of Israel. Vs the body of belivers. The head and body of self sacrifice as living offerings to God. Unfortunately, the story got corrupted big time and was changed into a pagan god-man human sacrifice for sins.

[@danafranchitto8751]

To me the most serious contradiction from a conventional Christian viewpoint would be the passion in the Gospels where one gospel says even the thieves on either side of him made fun of him and another gospel has a very well-known story about a penitent thief who asked him to remember him when he comes as king and Jesus says I tell you this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise since redemption and penance is the whole point of Christianity that is a very serious contradiction

[@jasonfrederick1258]

No. The point of Christianity is Faith in Jesus Christ.

[@kimurico1]

@@jasonfrederick1258 maybe, but the contradiction Dana mentions is there, as are so many others. So to which version will you be faithful to and why? What's the limit?

[@danafranchitto8751]

@@jasonfrederick1258 Jason it's this willingness to suspend critical thinking in the name of"faith" that concerns me I feel it has troublesome ramifications for society

[@jasonfrederick1258]

@@kimurico1 there is nothing without its apparent or real contradictions. FAITH which is a revelation resolves these conflicts personally by showing the believer those things that are unseen.

[@simonmaginn1479]

Of the 500 who 'saw Jesus after his death', how many had seen him *before* his death in order to be able to know that the person they were seeing was, in fact, Jesus? (If anyone saw anything at all).

[@billkeon880]

Excellent discussion Sam. Bart is just great

[@raysalmon6566]

Poor chap Lost and all...

[@NN-wc7dl]

Christianity (the Abrahamic tradition) could be the biggest conspirational ideology in human history.

[@calpeters4295]

Seems more like the natural outcropping of human beings trying to explain life's mysteries than anything that sinister. We're also tribal, so forming up into religious groups makes as much sense as families, communities, and political parties. Continuing to hold to such beliefs in the light of scientific discovery is more perplexing but still makes sense when we understand how people think. Or..."think".

[@merveilmeok2416]

If Jesus were born in Russia, India, in the Congo or in the Honduras would you be a Christian today?

[@oldcowboy3367]

Hi Merveil, The question doesn't have an answer. Jehovah had always intended to be where he was. The whole reason God had a "chosen people" was so that the Savior would come through that line. In other words, it was because Christ was going to come in the meridian of time in a place that would be prepared to offer him as a sacrifice that the Hebrews were selected. Their theology taught for more than a millennium that Christ would come in preparation for the event. It was all a part of God's plan.

[@subrosa4792]

Merveil Meok all of us are atheists, some of us just take it one God further...

[@comparedtowhat2719]

Best question asked in the last fifty years for where this nation has moved (morally, religiously, politically) in the last four.

[@brahilly]

And what would that change?

[@aaronclarke7732]

All of those are world powers contemporary to the Roman Empire with surviving religions today. In some cases believed by billions. Good point badly made.

[@Medio-Corre]

Eye color on the book cover changes from brown to blue at 12:13 and then back to brown. Does this happen throughout?

[@mariasalome5525]

Maybe it's a warning to Bart Erhman for denying Jesus.

[@voxservice6426]

Two of today's great voices.

[@utah133]

I was born in South-East Idaho. We were Mormons, sort of. Our closest neighbors were Episcopalians. At least the lady. I always wondered what that was. I guess it's a tentacle of Henry the 8th's protestant branch of the clearly mythical tradition of that myth of Christianity. I, of course' have rejected Mormonism. Religion is very interesting. But all horse shit.

[@thirdrd0]

That's a fantastic interview by a accomplished scholar who contributed greatly to atheist cause and to humanity in general. Sam Harris was there too.

[@raywingfield]

wow, so much historic truth..... thank you Dr. Ehrman..... good job Dr. Harris.....

[@YaoEspirito]

"Gerald Ford's State of the Union Address"... Great point!

[@nijoyjohn4366]

this PODCAST is pure gold

[@RandallChase1]

Great interview, I am a Christian, I have not always been a Christian. But I truly enjoyed this interview. Bruce Metzger (Bart’s Prof.) doesn’t agree with Bart. Interestingly listening to this interview his problem wasn’t with what he writes about regularly, but rather the problem of suffering. This topic has been covered many times by other philosophers like Alvin Plantinga and has been shown to be answered.

[@dukeon]

Randall Chase - No, it has not been answered. You’re just deceiving yourself that it has.

[@RandallChase1]

Justin Sias have you read Alvin Plantinga? If not I’d recommend it. There is no logical incompatibility with the existence of God and the existence of evil. To know something is evil implies there is moral good and evil. If we are all just animals then there is no real problem with things like rape and murder. The bear doesn’t murder in the woods nor does a lion rape when it forcibly copulates in the wild thats simply naturalism acting like naturalism, right? But we call things evil because we know that there is an ultimate good or bad... again otherwise we are just looking at good as a human construct, which if that’s the case then as long as people think something is good then it is. The Nazi’s didn’t do evil because they thought it was ok. We only think it’s evil because we don’t like it. As for God, some imply that if God is really good then there would be no pain, or suffering, no death, no natural disasters... but there is no justification for this view. God isn’t real or not because WE don’t like how things are done. God isn’t good or bad because he does or doesn’t act like WE think he should. Just a thought.

[@charlescoryn9614]

May I digress.......Another subject that I have never see mentioned is why would any omniscient, omnipotent Being create a world where every living creature must eat some other living creature, alive, just to stay alive themselves. Anthropology and archaeology have extended the time frame now of our evolutionary past, which means thousands and thousands of years of 'God's creatures' eating each other alive. And where was the Christian 'God' thousands of years ago? We can learn of all the thousands of gods created by humans throughout world history from Marjorie Leach's 'Guide to the Gods', her more than 800 page listing of these gods and goddesses. (1992 ABC-CLIO) So these are the kinds of things I think about in my old age, while watching my cats torture, and 'play' with mice and vols, and butterflies in particular, until the death, and equally the locusts or whatever else moves within their field of vision. But they don't eat them for some reason........ Well, religion seems to come up lacking to my mind....... Perhaps it is more of a vehicle to express oneself, one's power over others...... and to make a living doing it. Is that too cynical? Here, give me your money and I'll promise you'll go to heaven, etc..........

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Christianity is a belief that the invisible desert Hebrew god Yahweh, deposited himself into the ampulla of the fallopian tube of a Jewish virgin and formed himself into a human body called Yeshua. Yeshua's mission was to become a messiah (teacher) and a sacrifice to himself to forgive humanity for disobeying him. If we do not take advantage of Yahweh's sacrifice and submit to Yahweh then eternal torture awaits us after we become disembodied souls. That's what I learned in the first grade at Sacred Heart School 60 years ago. I was born an atheist and I have no recollection of existing before I became a human body.

[@cameronhayward7858]

David Anewman What are you talking about? Atheism has no core beliefs, they are united only by not believing in a god.

[@singingphysics9416]

Sam, if you want to understand the evidence that Jesus never existed, just search 'Richard Carrier' on KZbin. Bart, please debate this man

[@yamahajapan5351]

Singing Physics he has ...

[@pennydove8272]

So if God can make the perfect paradise, what makes us think that this so called perfect paradise won't go horribly wrong as well. Good Grief!

[@javierborda8684]

nothing

[@austenhead5303]

His track record making "perfect" things is shoddy at best. Dude's a total flake. I say we find ourselves a more reliable god, and I vote for Joe Pesci.

[@losttribe3001]

Austenhead Joe Pesci is a false god...that’s why I pray to Jason Mamoa!

[@Bill_Bo]

Even religious folk recognize that being *too* religious is a bad thing. (RE: His comment about the guy to the right of you is the fundamentalist.) A deflect I often hear now is "I am a Christian but not religious."

[@mikevieira8583]

Two great minds. Loving this.

[@xelakram]

This is a superb discussion! Thank you! Food for thought indeed!

[@wilfordmurray]

Fact is that Christianity is based upon a combination of human sacrifice, scapegoating, and wishful thinking.

[@patricialauriello3805]

Sam Harris did a great job in this interview. He was thoughtful and informative. I read Bart Ehrman and own many of his lectures. I enjoy both. I do not agree with Ehrman or Harris. I believe Christianity in the Catholic tradition, so I do believe in a literal resurrection but not a literal book of Genesis. I respect both Sam and Bart even though I don't agree with some aspects of this conversation. Great interview. Thanks guys.

[@gyldandillget4813]

Friend, abandon un biblical traditions of Idol Worship and blasphemous Appeasment for sin with money! Sola Scriptura! Dont listen to the pope who demands you call him father. The bible says to never call anyone Father!

[@healthyone100]

the greatest scripture in the bible Genesis 1:29 that's all you need to know!

[@matheno9494]

What supporting information, if any, does the "Gospel of Thomas" offer to the historical Jesus.

[@bubblestar2314]

Revelation 20:14-20 writes: " Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Notice that this passage says that the lake of fire , is "the second death". When a person is dead, how can they feel fire? Death would be the punishment.

[@eliasasitetsoangami7497]

What u said is true.

[@alexanderholding1952]

The first death is the death of your physical body. The second death is the death of your "spirit". Hope that helps.

[@commoveo1]

I was raised as you yet I also had as many if not more questions as you did. I also tried to get in the same school but already had a wife and children. I ended up being a Ironworker building bridges across America ha. Thanks for answering so many questions I had! It’s not just by chance I came across your explanations. Sincerely grateful, Howard

[@LesActive]

Algorithms and your curiosity brought you here.

[@frederickaffainie6695]

I like Bart.The interviewer is very clever

[@stephenarmiger8343]

Thank you Sam and Bart.

[@MendTheWorld]

54:52 I think it's a reasonable argument that the portrait of Jesus' ministry painted in the Gospel of John was constructed on a foundation of Anti-Semitism, and cast "the Jews" and "Jesus and his disciples" into two distinct groups. This was a brilliant strategic decision for promoting Christianity, but has left Judaism paying the price, in blood and in bigotry.

[@charlescoryn9614]

You must study anthropology if you wish to learn the reality of human evolution, and to understand religions. Each cultural group of humans will create a god or goddess, and a religion, a belief system unique to their group. No one from outside that group will have knowledge of their god, and as such it is an identification mechanism of the human mind. Religion is a cultural artifact, that is the correct interpretation. There was no christian god before a few thousand years ago, but human evolution goes back hundreds of thousands of years. The truth is we are all taught cultural myths by our parents and teachers and preachers, because myths are the glue that holds cultures together...... You must decide whether to remain culture-bound or to open your mind to a larger reality, i.e. the knowledge of all of the other cultures that have arisen over the thousands of years of human evolution.

[@Larry30102]

Not to ramble...but my path has many similarities. This was refreshing. Many thanks.

[@dro8031]

I enjoyed the podcast but they never answered the question.... what IS Christianity????

[@SeaJay_Oceans]

Answer: True Love to All. Love LOVE with all your being. Love all beings. Love your self. Love enemies and make friends. Love One Another. One Love. That's it. Applied empathetic humanism mixed with loving compassion and mindful mercy. The 'Way of Love' as taught by Yahshua Messiah is super easy and so simple, any atheist can do it. Oh, and you can be Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, or Catholic and still follow the 'Way of Love' as taught by Yahshua. If Love is difficult for you for various reasons, you could try the teachings of Buddha to free yourself from the suffering that is blocking your natural loving nature. Once you gain clarity and peace of mind, you may decide to love all, or not - and just enjoy existing as you are. Breath in. Breath out. Bliss. The Peace of your mind in harmony.

[@rockhead1731]

The problem with following the teachings of Yoshua as you put it, you don't get to pick and choose. It's an all or nothing book and you have to take all the bad shit that goes with it if you say you are a believer. Now if you wish to practice the ways of love as you say, you don't need any of the supernatural mumbo-jumbo that's packed in with all these other religions, just dropped the religion, stop with the woo woo and be a humanist.

[@palma8415]

Yeah, love for all. And then you are totally fine with many of them burning in hell forever☺️ but you love them😍

[@halnovemila9698]

Wonderful amazing podcast! Thank you!! I loved the intelligent and perfectly articulated questions that Sam Hariss posed to Professor Bart D. Ehrman, as well as I loved Bart's replies. One reply in particular have struk me... the one that explains the main reason that made Prof. Ehrman to turn into atheism. IT'S NOT, as many, including myself, would guess that he lost faith due to his studies and findings about the history of Christianity and the NON DIVINE origins of the scriptures... Prof. Ehrman explains what was the main reason at video time 1:46:21 with the following words: "the thing is that my classes are about the history of early Christianity including the history of the New Testament, and that scholarship for me is what lead me away from being a fundamentalist but it DID NOT LEAD ME AWAY FROM BEING A CHRISTIAN. THE REASON I STOP BEING A CHRISTIAN WAS BECAUSE I NO LONGER COULD ACCOUNT FOR HOW THERE CAN BE SO MUCH PAIN AND SUFFERING IN THE WORLD if there's a God who's in charge of it. This was more of a philosophical-thoelogical question" It's such a relief to have heard such answer from Prof. Bart because I never have heard a good enough reason to become an atheist only on the ground of the evidences that disprove the divine and inerrancy nature of the Bible, and I really wondered that a brilliant mind like Prof. Bart Ehrman could have turned away from being a Christian just because the Bible isn't the "word of God" as he had believed for many years of his life. But I do understand and I agree that the so called "problem of pain" is a HUGE ISSUE that mainstream Christian theology dramatically FAILS to provide a reasonable and MORALLY ACCEPTABLE answer, and while in lack of such answer it may indeed seem more reasonable to NOT believe in any God rather than to believe in an apparently unjust and immoral one. #HalEx

[@tedgrant2]

Great book. Really interesting. He knows how to keep a reader riveted to the page. As soon as I finished I wanted to read it again !

[@nativeatheist6422]

Debate Carrier on the historicity of Jesus, answer this question for us!

[@doriesse824]

It's a Cosmic Myth where everything makes perfect sense in a literary presentation instead of a literal one. Malik Jabbar and Santos Bonacci do a very good job with this.

[@brasstacks7181]

Why at 12:16 did they make jesus eye color on the book turn from brown to blue, then back to brown?! Sneaky

[@sexcesslifestyle]

I was very impressed when the context was history. It was ruined, however when the conversation devolved into political opinion. If you want to do public politics that’s fine, but mixing that with s history presentation ruined it for me

[@andybeans5790]

Human history and politics are basically the same thing. This is an interview not a presentation.

[@andresvillarreal9271]

I have a very hard time accepting both the "Road to Damascus" event and the timing of Jesus' death a year, or maybe three years before that. In my opinion, Romans were chasing Christians since long before Jesus died, assuming that he died less than three years before Paul's conversion, and Christians were, in fact, a thing for many years before all of this. Romans cannot just watch a weird guy become a martyr, and then a cult leader, and then organize people to persecute the followers of this cult all-around an empire that covered most of the known world, in a few months' time. And Saul did not tell the story of how he learned about this thing called Christians on Monday and completely changed his life and dedicated it to persecuting Christians on Friday. Just as he happened to be an artisan, he just happened to be a Christian persecutor. It was not like he was making a tent, or working on a piece of leather when his Roman friends came to ask him to urgently start rounding up Christians. The whole story sounds as if the persecution of colonized subjects of the Roman empire who did not obey Roman religious laws was just a part of life under the empire, and Saul was part of this for a long time before the supposed date of Christ's death, and only after Jesus' death did Saul mix and match the old and the new, coming up with the religion we call Christianity.

[@wjnelson]

Andres Villarreal Paul also says that he was a student of Rabbi Gamaliel who was not into violence against Christians. Why would Paul be into persecuting Christians if his famous and respected Rabbi taught against this. Lots of brainwashing.

[@blackbuddha8167]

Two of my favorites. Magnificent job men

[@DBCisco]

Modern Christianity was invented circa 350 AD.

[@charlescoryn9614]

Concisely, referring to the ending of the discussion, around 1:45:00, why would we not want to further truth and reality, wherever they may lead us? As opposed to supporting superstition and belief? A matter of temperament I think....... So rather than ignore the study of anthropology, we might encourage it. It appears to me that we are in fact brainwashed from the moment we are born by everyone surrounding us; parents, preachers and priests, neighbors and friends, the 80 or 90% of those we live among who are professing some particular belief system, but in fact offer no evidence or proof of the truth or reality of such. Is that a correct observation or not? Before children can even think or begin to reason they are immersed in their culture's belief system, a religion, a cultural artifact which is presented as real and true because it surrounds us so totally, and, as species, it is all we've known and experienced since our evolution to homo sapiens began. This is the essence of culture, of thousands of years of slowing changing beliefs, but so little real knowledge. Because there was no science, and no way to measure reality. Until now........

[@robertjimenez5984]

Nobody notice that Paul was killing Christians and as soon as he has his encounter with his imaginary friend the killing stops like If Paul was the only lunatic killing Christians. But he was not alone. Does this make any sense?

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Yes, Jesus is King

[@michaelstevenson9648]

No, you make no sense at all.

[@fionafiona1146]

Once he finds a communety sufficiently repressed to keep abusing he has little reason to keep murdering... others might have needed longer 😉

[@Writer538]

It is less than clear whether the Church of God which Paul said he persecuted was composed of Christians or just by Jews who were followers of Jesus but did not see him as divine or as a savior (except in a more worldly sense, the Jewish sense).

[@LordiscomingTV]

Dr Ehrman: I have recently gone through two of your publications : the "Lost Scriptures" and the "Lost Christianities". Thanks for your valuable research first. I learn a lot from them. There are several things I would like to share with you here. Firstly, I think that the Ebionites were highly likely mean the "poor people". The Messiah answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 'the poor have the gospel preached to them." If so, the Ebionites may be the "true" believers of the Messiah. Secondly, "the gospel of the holy 12" is highly likely used by the Ebionites. This gospel is available now in the market. Thirdly, on page 103 of the "Lost Christianities", you have mentioned about the Locusts[meat]. In the "Gospel of the holy 12", it states that John the Baptist eat "the fruits of Locusts tree".

[@jeanettecampbell2110]

Have you ever read the book which I think is called: "The Best Salesman in the World"? It's about Paul. His message: Resurrection is available to all who believe. Well I'm here to say, all religion aside, that I can perceive the possibility of a life after this one. After all, we never expected this one and here we are. But I feel no need to worry about it. We don't seem to have much say in the matter. However, it would be nice if there was an answer to it all? And there are plenty of salesmen out there to sell you their pitch..... Buyer beware.

[@brucecampbell6578]

Grace of Gaia on all sentient beings of our common womb. Those of us born of water and spirit in the presence of Mom. Chi rises from beneath our forgotten feet in wholeness and providence. Paul sold us sun worship. Scorched earth politics of Patriarchy. Women embody nature and bare the seed of Messiah. They are not just playthings of men or objects of affection. They have a sacred calling purposely obscured by the sun cult. Women have a place in the tabernacle of exceeding high esteem. Women are more grounded than men. Men embody a solar energy which is seemingly detached and self absorbed. Women are first teachers of man. You are woke Ms. Campbell. With an auspicious sir name I might add.

[@tussilagolindera1575]

jeanette campbell you say you don't seem to have much say in the matter. That is where you are mistaken. You can find out if you buy a NT and read it on your own. Stay away from preachers, they have an agenda mostly. Ask God to show you. And look at what is there, not what they say it is or means, but what is there. You can see it for yourself.

[@himalayanworshiper6034]

Would love to see a debate between the guest of this podcast with Dr. Michael Brown.

[@xlxdeboxlx3767]

I would enjoy that too. Before I became an atheist, I was a pastor, and listened to a ton of Dr Michael Brown. I became an atheist during Trump’s presidency and seeing Christians and Dr. Brown supporting Trump, was one of my final straws for believing.

[@SPL0869]

@@xlxdeboxlx3767 I don’t think we have seen how many Christians are going to leave Christianity after seeing their leaders hitch their wagon to Trump. There is literally no intelligent way for them to justify supporting such a morally bankrupt idiot.

[@DLANM57]

He debate Brown years ago on the topic of suffering.

[@elysium619]

I feel that Ehrman totally trivialized Paul's singlehandedly setting forth, by use of his inventive terminology, the theological framework of Christianity that circumscribed the discussion of sin, Christology, salvation, our spiritual self, etc., for next three centuries and beyond. For example, it is striking that Paul had little regard for , and was in fact dismissive of, the original disciples, those who lived in the very presence of Christ , received his counsel and knew him in way that Paul cannot lay claim to. Paul mocks the Jerusalem Church, e.g., Peter, James, etc., as "super apostles"; it is well understood that the Jerusalem Church was thoroughly devoted to Judaism (as was Jesus) and continued to worship, insistently, according to the Law-- which Paul was vehemently opposed to. He and Peter had a an acrimonious fallout over the matter. I should think that Paul's views eventually co-opting the Jerusalem Church speaks loudly to, and is only one example of, his influence in terms of casting "Christianity", that is, Christianity according to Paul.

[@antonius3745]

I understand what zou try to say about Paul. When you accept every letter that is believed to be written by Paul himself zou would have a point. But that is the point: are all letters of Paul written by Paul? The answer is no! We know now that only parts are from Paul concentrating on Corinthians and Romans and some verses in the Galatians. The rest is written almost in the year 100 in Ephesus. And exactly the point you mention are clearly from that time. The illustrate the conflict between the Jewish-Christians and the Hellenistic-Gentile christian church. But they clearly can't be of Paul who is still an observant Jew.

[@BAFREMAUXSOORMALLY]

CHURCH? Was there ever SUCH A CHURCH?

[@paulrobinson4439]

Superb. It reminded me how it is important to look at the context and historical development of ideas. Read with care and depth.

[@josegaleano1530]

Very nice program thank you guys

[@chrissscottt]

Presumably the missing link in this whole saga is the guy who pretended to be the reincarnated Jesus who persuaded Paul to take up his cause.

[@michaelflores9220]

You presume the Pauline epistles are all real yay the same guy and that he actually saw what he claimed to have seen, yet you dismiss Muhammed seeing the angel Gabriel.

[@susanstewart4890]

5:20 - I attended a Fundamentalist non-denominational Church, in Mpls, in the 1990s - our Pastor, Roger Magnuson, @StraitgateChurch, would say: ‘I am not ashamed to be called a ‘Fundamentalist,’ because I believe in the fundamentals of the Christian Faith.

[@tiger23800]

Great Podcast! Another wrong thing about Jesus' sacrifice is that according to Torah, sin offering must be a goat without blemish. Jesus was said to be a lamb and was beating.

[@charlescoryn9614]

Excuse me, but I want to do a small experiment if I may, and as I am now 81 years of age I think it is now time, so please humor me for a moment..... I am atheist, and there is one reason in particular that I cannot accept the reality of a supernatural Jesus. And that is, I believe that it would be impossible for a human being to hide such a characteristic while growing up, that such knowledge would certainly escape and spread like wildfire, so how did Jesus reach the age of 28 or 30 years without this happening? Think of today...... say a streetlight illuminates a church window such that a 'supernatural' glow occurs, or a famous statue of Mary appears to be weeping...... such news will travel like the proverbial wildfire throughout the community, even throughout the country. How could a child, or a teen-ager, hide the supernatural side of his personality? Would not a neighbor or a traveling salesman reveal this information to the local as well as the not so local community?. It seems it would take tremendous effort to contain such knowledge........

[@robertunderwood1011]

Some of us show discretion. Who wants to stir up another crucifixion?

[@Napoleonic_S]

There was the so called the infancy gospel of Thomas where Jesus killed his friend because he stole his toy or something like that, another story in the same gospel where Jesus killed his religious teacher because Jesus was lazy to recite the scripture, all that happened in Jesus youth, allegedly. Of course even ancient people noticed the absurdity of the story so they didn't accept that gospel to the canon. Basically you can made up anything with the whole fiction.

[@healthyone100]

jesus and john the baptist were members of the essene sect at Quamran, they were just men but were great teachers they were strict vegans and taught how to take care of gods true temple our bodies, you will create your own HELL on earth if you disobey the laws of nature, slavation comes by keeping the temple clean and healthy, all these"s so called scholars are all frauds and don't teach the true word of christ there all on the road to HELL!

[@hanialturk5981]

Jesus in that photo looks like Messi

[@bubblestar2314]

No he doesn't. Why do you say that?

[@walterbushell7029]

How do we know Saul saw the correct Jesus. He latter said that there were many Jesuses, and a evil spirit could present himself as an angel of live?

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Who is 'G-sue-says-?

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

nevermind an angel of light!

[@DonVoghano]

We don't know what the hell Saul saw if he ever saw anything. What we know is what he wrote and what people wrote about him. The funny thing is that most likely the historical Jesus would have strongly disagreed with Paul, and just about every idea we have of the "correct Jesus" which was heavily influenced by Paul's ideas (who actually never met Jesus and was considered a latecomer and a bit of a nutter by Peter.)

[@billerickson5604]

That’s a great question and one I asked myself after I had an encounter with God who revealed Himslef as PURE LOVE but later , being the skeptic I am, questioned if I could have been deceived by some OTHER supernatural entity . I know by the NEW life I have been given, my transformation that aligned with what scripture shows happens when u become a new creature in Christ /born of God. I , like Paul went from being agaisnt Christiantly to fully embracing it and knowing and loving God ALL BECAUSE OF JESUS. Could I still be wrong? Of course. I am SURE what I experienced was real and was supernatural and a personal entity , I have proof beyond reasonable doubt it was my Maker who is the God of the Bible, the Father of Jesus Christ . If I am wrong , what did I really lose ? I have a much better life now and ha e no fear of death and more love for others than I ever had before.

[@Cookiesantos777]

Paul was an opportunist, jesus never cared about the gentiles .why do people believe whatever they want?

[@felixkubheka8258]

When paul went to gentiles there was ajewish community presence we hear about synagogues in acts etc there were dispersd Jews the galut we see in James introduction romans etc not only pagan communities if you read about Corinthian wars etc

[@truethinker221]

Wow good education . Bart> i wish you would present biblical studies and leave the atheism out . You are a great teacher. And sharing all the knowledge in a non threatening way to Christians would really help getting people to read research and deeply study the biblical text.

[@kcdad2806]

Ehrman doesn't seem to understand Hebrew concept of Sheol/ the pit or grave. They believed that people "live on" after death, ONLY IF they are remembered. How they are remembered is the important issue. Famous or infamous. Loved or despised. The memory of someone lives FOREVER as long as someone is around to remember them. Their soul, that is, who they REALLY are, is their reputation. What people who know them think of them. Not their public image. This is why it was so important to have children. This is why it was so important that Hebrews/Jews kept so detailed lineages. This is even seen today in the practice of leaving stones on the graves of loved ones, to show others that these people are remembered. The worst thing that can happen to you in the OT is to be CAST OUT of society. To be exiled, to be erased from the memory of society. The greatest thing is to be accepted back into society - to be reconciled. That is what the OT is ALL about. Exile and reconciliation.

[@anattasunnata3498]

Hi Charles! This is wonderful! I've never heard or read any interpretation of the Sheol like this one before. True or not, it makes so much sense to me. Do you have some source to deepen my knowledge about it? Thanks for writing this!

[@SeaJay_Oceans]

I enjoy the story of the Poet. While he is living and breathing, he has the spirit of life in him... He writes his poems all his life, until he dies, but the poems live on. Our Living body is our pen, our beliefs, actions, and relationships with others are the ink. We write the story with our life until we run out of breath, and the ink is empty, the pen dies. But the story of our life is CARVED into space time. Our life events are immortal, immutably stored in the past. The effects of that life, good or bad, are eternal. Once lived, we can't change the past. That living history is our SOUL. The living record and effects of our being, our existing is the immortal soul. In 500 years, will any of us be remembered ? Not many. But we all touch hundreds of lives every day, and each of those lives touch hundreds of lives every day.... Ripples in the Pond of human history on one tiny blue-green planet, in one arm of the Milky Way galaxy. So it's important to become loving kindness for all. So I wish all love peace happiness and joy onto you my friend ! :-) Will our loving and caring for each other on Earth have a big impact on someone in the Andromeda galaxy ? Probably not much... but once we live our lives, it can not be undone. And living a lovingly kind life can be great fun, adding more enjoyment to our brief existence and reducing troubles for our selves, our neighbors, friends, and family. Helping everyone to be Living Happy ! :-)

[@worthdoss8043]

Really enjoyed the open minded conversation.

[@apm77]

I think I would very much enjoy a casual conversation with Bart, partly because his story and mine are in some ways very similar and in others very different. One important difference is that I never had a fundamentalist understanding of Hell. What I did believe about salvation could fill a long paragraph, but I placed more emphasis on the idea of "seek and ye shall find", that anyone who earnestly yearns to be morally perfect is assured of receiving God's truth, whether in this life or otherwise. It is definitely unpalatable that a benevolent god would let people be tortured eternally for getting the wrong answer on a trivia quiz, but it is somewhat more palatable that a damnation terminating in destruction could be the fate of those who decline to seek their own moral betterment. This was my view. The idea of progressive revelation is usually evoked in the context of explaining away things in the Old Testament such as the more wrathful depictions of God or how he walks around in the Garden of Eden. It's unusual to hear it evoked with reference to the period of composition of the New Testament. I am surprised to hear Bart say that he uses the discrepency in the date of the crucifixion to show fundamentalists that there are contradictions, given that he has pointed out on numerous occasions that there is a perfectly good way to reconcile this, i.e. by acknowledging that at least one account departs from a literal telling of events to make a poetic or theological point. As Bart says, fundamentalists are good at reconciling things, so what good does it do to show them yet another example of something that is easily reconciled? Is it a case of trying to be gentle with them? We could spend all day talking about how modern Christians debate the nature of the atonement, but that is of course different from the topic of how it was understood historically. I do think it's clear that neither Paul nor the other New Testament writers believed you could be saved merely by assenting to certain doctrines; that is a corruption of their message. What is the evidence that Paul lost the argument with Peter in Galatians?