What Is "Good" Coffee? The Dark Side Of Flavour!

[@tummy_fritters]

This is such great content that doesn't get discussed enough. I really love the work you two do! Please keep it up!

[@jankoch267]

We need more videos with Namisha and you both in them! I love your dynamic 🫶🏻

[@VishnuRajam4x4]

Yes agreed

[@samburchard1778]

Oh my gosh, I had this video in my watch later list for MONTHS. Whyyyyy did I sleep on it?😭 It’s SO GOOD!

[@Ddiakova]

Guys, you are honestly killing it (in a good way)!! This video came at such a crucial moment for me that I cannot thank you enough for your work on it. I am actually launching my own little project related to coffee (a guide to cafes in my home country) and I've been thinking about the 'rules' which I want a café to pass so that I can include it on the guide. And I think you just handed me the answer - it'll be nothing related to how the coffee is made or how it tastes to ME (which was kinda my original idea). I will try to focus more on the community and people behind the place instead. Love your content as always

[@hatikagura1325]

after discovering and running marathon of your videos, i'd like to stop for a moment to appreciate what you've contributed for the community. by far this is one of the most noble coffee channel that ever exist, and this is the most important videos i've ever watched.

[@tophev07]

This video is astoundingly brilliant. Really appreciate what y’all do, and the approach you take to your content.

[@osmosisazman]

This video reminds me of your first video I watched that got featured on James Hoffmann's channel. You have expanded your point, made it clearer and covered more grounds. Excellent piece of work.

[@robojimtv]

that video made me subscribe and I'm a big fan of the approach. Most of the big creators approach coffee from their own Western experience which isn't wrong but it certainly shouldn't be perceived as the only way to approach the hobby.

[@deepaknautiyal7956]

This is brilliant! Thoughtful , knowledgeable, informative, enlightening, and just validate my universal truth - There is no single definition of a good coffee. 😊

[@nathanmccord706]

Easily one of the best videos on coffee and KZbin! So thankful for your channel and these kinds of conversations!

[@CesarSandoval024]

A MUST watch video for the coffee enthusiast

[@florianretzlaff7035]

Reminds me of my own coffee journey, where I was told that dark roast equals bad coffee/bad quality. After drinking some really nice dark roasted coffees in Japan, I found myself sometimes wishing for my Ethiopian fruity juice to have some of that lingering taste of cocoa,gnat comes with the blend I sometimes drink. Also blending coffee was something I never wanted to do, because of the little voices telling me I'm destroying the origin flavour. I think I grew a lot more tolerable towards what kind of coffee I drink. I want to drink something because I like and enjoy it, not because someone tells me I'll like it. Great video, nice dynamics with all the backed research. You can really see where the effort went into

[@Athrix94]

LOVE. Your content you guys. You are INSANELY underrated. Did all of the things. Here's to hoping your channel keeps growing!

[@tylerkeating3784]

Hey this video was absolutely fantastic. I dont think anyone else has approached this topic from this perspective, and using such contrasting scales (i.e. molecular olfactory temporal vs personal cultural global) was a really effective means of conveyance. Its an interesting and honestly poignant reframing of the current moment in coffee, and think drawing the distinction between flavor and quality in the context of 'objectivity' is absolutely critical. Thanks for your effort!

[@shreeshmeghna7158]

Resonated so much with the content of this video! Growing up, coffee for me has always been the standard South Indian Filter coffee, specifically Cothas coffee, and other local South Indian roasters. College had me chug cheap CCD double espressos twice a day, further feeding into my preference for bitter taste over sour. Even after discovering specialty coffee, I always keep a bag of dark roasted robusta alongside the specialty arabica. The flavor associations made during my formative years will never go away, and no amount of drinking specialty will stop me from fawning over good robusta! Of course, I still love my arabica naturals and light roasts, but the next time a perplexed specialty coffee enthusiast questions my love for robusta, I'll point them toward this video!

[@robojimtv]

I relate. I grew up in the Mediterranean and the preference there tends to be very dark roasted coffee and I never enjoyed it served Turkish. I probably overcorrected for a while with just light roasts and I think my sweet spot is most medium to medium-dark roasts, just none of those super shiny black beans lol. I still enjoy light roasts of course but it's not be all end all most coffee youtubers end up talking about. And you can even see this in the most popular products at the mid tier roasters like La Colombe where they still make more dark/medium roasts than light ones.

[@safiyeserdengecti7487]

Excellent video and funny too :) I was always trying to relay this notion of subjectivity in taste while enjoying coffee to my friends, and you have explained it so perfectly!

[@dr7246]

Late to the party, but this was an OUTSTANDING video. So much more engaging than gear reviews. I’d vote for more like this!

[@spektrograf]

Just catching up here on some of your videos I missed last year, and wow I should have watched this much sooner! This video is one of my favorite pieces of work from you guys. It puts into a well-articulated form, what I've been trying to convey to friends and family when they ask about how to have "better coffee"-AND it conveys it with depth of research that gives us a springboard to dive deeper. Thank you!!! 🙏 edit: "We need to spend more time studying people." 💯

[@aramse]

Thank you!

[@Abrikosmanden]

What a great discussion to get going! Great work, Guys!

[@Kruveinc]

Excellent info guys! Keep it up ❤

[@nickarcher4821]

What an amazing video. I could not have enjoyed that more. It checked so many boxes for me and I especially enjoyed it, I suppose, because I felt very “like-minded” to your thoughts. Thank you for taking the tremendous amount of time into making this video. I’ve always enjoyed coffee, but only fell into the rabbit hole in the past year. And like many, I can’t get enough, as the more I learn, also creates more questions and sends me in new directions. I am also fascinated by the science behind everything, so I appreciate deep dives into everything. Anyway, I’m glad I’ve found your channel and am enjoying your content. Oh, and maybe I’ll be your only follower to admit it, but I so enjoy your jokes. They just really make my day. 🙏🏼

[@stillnessnmindelaine8810]

Brilliant discussion. Thank you so very much!

[@max1000000ify]

This was a brilliant and well composed piece that was complimented by a professional and impassioned delivery. Thanks for challenging my thinking and understanding about something I love!

[@tuandatn]

A fantastic and timely video for me personally. Recently got into third wave specialty coffee and I am finding that I struggle with the more lightly roasted, acidic coffees. While they can be interesting and unique--surprising, even--I am increasingly convinced that they are not what I crave and reach for on a day to day basis. Sometimes you just want a consistent, reliable, and delicious cup of coffee. Perhaps it's a distinction for me between comfort and adventure. And perhaps third wave coffee is an exercise in adventure, emphasizing the "origin characteristics" that transport us to these various coffee producing regions... I just prefer my coffee to be more comfort than adventure.

[@PurajitMalalur]

I think there's subjectivity at every level here. I strongly disliked coffee, both in taste and smell, until ~2 years ago, when a friend basically forced me to try some specialty light roast and I realized there was coffee in this world I loved. To me, light roast _is_ comfort. If it didn't exist, I would've never gotten into coffee; I've never found a medium/dark roast I liked, despite my parents and so many friends drinking it around me all my life. And in most other food situations, I love strong, earthy, roasty, nutty flavors. Somehow, just when it comes to coffee, I need something else. Same with chicory - it's such a common additive where I grew up, my parents had it all the time, but I don't care for it at all. There's definitely an added adventure as you mention that I live for, but I would not complain if my current bag of Ethiopian beans was all that I could have for the rest of my life without any variance.

[@mikejones-nd6ni]

I just stumbled across your channel today, this It is only the 2nd video of yours that I've seen. The first one was on the refractometer. You have quickly earned my subscription off just these 2 videos. Love your work. 👍🫵

[@dr7246]

Thanks!

[@thepotatokitty]

Thanks

[@PopcornColonelx]

Very well made video. Thanks for opening up the conversation!

[@agnividhyut]

You guys are killing it with this well researched and well produced video🎉🎉!

[@simonw4304]

Chapeau! Fascinating video and well put together. As someone who's feeling overwhelmed with mad fruit flavoured coffees at every turn, while still trying to find one that I want to stick with, it was great to no longer feel like some oddity for not loving fruit flavoured coffees. Thank you

[@maphytaffy]

i love your videos i just discovered you today! keep going

[@noamdinar9563]

Thank you for this important content ❤ Few years back - i've noticed that the SCA score did not reflect at all to say "is this coffee tasty for ME?" I had crazy-tasty 87-89 scores coffees mostly, and boring 90-92 scored... As you also mentioned - I as well went back from astringent-scandinavic roasted coffees -- back to medium-dark and enjoy it much more. All depends on what is tasty for us. Again- thanks! 🎉

[@VishnuRajam4x4]

Very interesting piece indeed. Loving your channel and your coffee subscription! Keep up the great work!

[@Misnos]

Outstanding video. Always something I have thought about. I prefer to describe the flavors I experience now broadly, as it's more approachable and others may not attribute a certain acidity or sweetness to the same fruits/vegetables/herbs/spices that I do.

[@caffeinated_slacker]

Great topic! My favorite quote was “quality is not discovered but created.” It’s always useful to remind ourselves that the things we reflexively think of as “objectively true” are actually not at all. In the context of coffee it’s a good reminders that a preference for an old-school dark, rich and syrupy espresso is just as valid as loving the acidic lemon juice that the young hipsters are drinking. I say that as someone who loves both light and dark roast espresso.

[@calebkemp581]

Great video! You should definitely change the title so people know why they should click on the video though

[@Horologiist]

Hmm, thinking ill get myself some south india food for dinner tonight. Thx!😊

[@harshabhishek5172]

That’s such a brilliantly researched take on the subject. Wow!!

[@danymeeuwissen5973]

Reminds me of that episode where Lucia Solis explained how she had to reprogram her brain on her childhood memory of papaya because in winemaking that's considered a defect

[@01banksjon]

This is soo good spot on stuff 🤯

[@sahil0106]

I am so much more excited to attend the cupping with you guys after watching this!!! Really really good callouts on the biases in the industry.

[@LuckyDragon289]

Liking and commenting for the algorithm, but haven't finished watching yet; will come back to it later! But great hook :D

[@lionelcrasto7453]

This video summarises everything many of us like and dislike about coffee. Thank you so much for your efforts for putting this video together.

[@sailman1727]

I really enjoyed this video with both of you. Very informative.

[@0banon]

Loved this video! Going to be all the more mindful of different factors in foods and drinks I enjoy moving forward.

[@pontuswastle2894]

I wish there was a double like button 😊. I find this topic very interesting as I love food and Craft beer but only started to drink coffee a year ago. And what a rabbit whole I stumbled in to. I lived 44 years thinking coffee is utterly bitter and burnt flavours alternatively very acidic (I have been brought up in Sweden might explain things or not). I can’t explain what happened but one day I decided to give coffee a real chance. I had just found out that there was a specialty roasters in the small city I live in so there was really no other option than to go there and try so coffee. I proudly declared to the barista that I don’t like coffee so I don’t know what I want. The face on the other side was priceless but I happened to come across the owner of the roastery and clearly she was not shy of an challenge. What he served me a pour over from a natural anaerobic beans and it blew me away it that taste nothing like the coffee I have ever tried and now I’m stuck in this rabbit whole. This was a great video and I hope you do similar things again

[@prit04]

This video needs more views!!

[@UrzuaNicolas]

This is the most informative content that i watched around coffee. I truly thank you for all the work you do ❤

[@alanantonio512]

This is a very helpful video, thanks!

[@aramse]

Thank you so much!

[@racheltyrellcorp9694]

Excelent video ! Nice work digging in the intricacies of this deep subject and comming out with insightful and deculpabilizing thoughts ! Discovered your channel recently while unraveling the worlds of home espresso and of specialty coffee, and i'm going to follow you even closer now ;)

[@georgegiannakopoulos6329]

Congrats! That was super interesting, maybe even groundbreaking...

[@TheJamesMReid]

Love it! I've been watching all of your videos!

[@melkermillton5030]

Fantastic video guys! I wholeheartedly agree that coffee the artform is deeply underappreciated compared to coffee the "science". Thank you for your work!

[@kukkurovaca]

This is great. I'm a tea person who has only recently tried to get into coffee, and as someone who never liked coffee very much in the past, hearing people speak both positively and negatively about the rise of "floral and tealike" coffees made me think, okay, maybe coffee's going to be easier for me to get into. In fact, people in the coffee space seem to refer to tea as a flavor in a way that is kind of at right angles to what tea actually tastes like, but nonetheless I've had fun experimenting and trying to make sense of how coffee flavors work. Among third wave folks even great popularizers like James Hoffmann (who is a delight) have a pretty clearly hierarchical view of coffee. He would be the first to admit that his preferences are subjective, but nonetheless he still implicitly frames preferences in a way that positions some coffees as outdated or low-brow, and groups certain kinds of coffee flavors (e.g., those characteristic of robusta) with defect characteristics. And the desire for low-acid coffees by many is framed as a sort of, "these people can't enjoy most light roast specialty coffee" rather than "specialty coffee has a narrow palette (or palate, lol) of origin characteristics that are perceived as worth emphasizing. I think there's also a sort of procedural elitism (which is not unusual in the food and drink space) where the fact that high altitude light roast coffees are physically harder to grind and chemically harder to extract intersects with the hobbyist's desire to spend more on high-end equipment and to perfectly optimize technique. Because it's harder to brew those coffees, they're perceived as better, and a failure to enjoy them may be assumed, (rightly in some cases, but not all) to be down to failed to technique or not spending enough money. I hope in the future it will be easier to source "specialty" robusta and other not-so-third-wave coffees -- i.e., high quality coffee with transparent sourcing, that's interesting and perhaps also interestingly processed, but isn't necessarily trying to taste either like a stereotypical third-wave coffee OR a "traditional" roast. There aren't that many vendors doing this in the US at least (although I know there's Chromatic Coffee in San Jose for example).

[@spellbinder6818]

The “physically harder to grind” part is interesting. I had recently upgraded from a basic Timemore C2 to a 5x more expensive Comandante, and was trying it on a very light roast from Tim Wendelboe in Oslo. The cranking felt strained and I was genuinely afraid it might damage the Comandante. I went back to the basic all-metal Timemore which had no problems, and wouldn’t worry me if it broke anyway :) So light roasts don’t necessarily advantage the expensive grinders.

[@spellbinder6818]

Also note, when you say “what tea actually tastes like” that is a very subjective statement. There are probably even more types of teas and brewing methods than coffees, and what it “actually tastes like” to a group would vary widely from a milk less English breakfast to Thai/Taiwanese milk teas to matcha to any of the tisanes that people consider tea now. As an eclectic person who respects all potentially caffeinated hot beverages, I have to say I used the word “tea like” spontaneously the first time I was poured a Yirgachefe at a specialty cafe, as naturally as I would identify something smoky. I did not need to be informed or conditioned to identify it as I have been with flavour notes like “stone fruit” or “phenolic”.

[@Stereosichtgeraet]

Great video :). I myself have such different taste preferences depending on my expectations. In coffee this means I love and seek fruity acidic pour overs with no bitterness. But in espresso I can't stand it. I'd rather have a seriously bitter and astringent shot that any hint of acidity and therefore prefere very dark roasts. It's just the way I learned to drink it and I'm still stuck with it. Bizarre but certainly nothing to worry about.

[@dirkh2122]

Amazing video and analysis! Thanks so much

[@srinivasagoutham609]

Aramse has by far the most informative and exploratory content on coffee I have come across, presented in the most succinct, digestible and a classy way. And I can’t speak enough of how much all your content has helped me through my journey in coffee. It’s like having a best companion in one of the most fascinating journeys I’ve embarked upon. Best wishes from the bottom of my heart!

[@tatehewitt4220]

great work!

[@ahhomem]

Enlightening, thank you. This is great content.

[@VishnuRajam4x4]

I’m in love with Aramse ❤

[@NithinNin]

Amazing, amazing video. Started following you when I saw your video in a James Hoffman video, and loved your content ever since. Great to see you guys explore this topic.

[@jayr5191]

Thanks!

[@aramse]

Thanks!

[@loriosterweil982]

The two of you are terrific.

[@stevewilcox6375]

Very interesting. It's got me thinking and questioning. Thanks for this.

[@robnauta6470]

Awesome work!

[@nnemos]

Recently discovered monsoon Malabar from India, darker than I was used to, but absolutely amazing, velvety, classic Italian espresso vibe made on a lever machine. Love this video, thanks from London

[@helixDNA6535]

Thank you so much for a deep and thought provoking discussion. I roast my own coffee and have a high end expresso machine at home but I've not been on board with "third wave" coffee, especially in espresso. Where others taste juicy fruit and terroir I taste sour. My taste preference tends toward the darker end of medium with notes of chocolate, dried fruit and nuts. I've been traveling in Colombia, Morocco and Portugal for the past 3 months and that sort of flavor profile is what most people drink in those countries.

[@rodrigodepazos3771]

Beautiful video, deep, interesting and eye opener in a way. You never fail, keep it up!

[@karlwilson863]

Another great video, possibly your best yet! I enjoy a wide range of different coffees and I try to explore darker roasts as well medium and light. Also, I find darker roasts are often more forgiving and easier to dial in, which has helped me stay sane while learning how to use a Flair 58.

[@ac3400]

Amazing video! I never really considered as to why certain tasting notes are more sought after till now or how subjective the scoring to be based on a tester preference! I would really like to expand my pallet to more earthy flavors, what would you guys recommend región wise or even roaster wise?

[@kavyakurian1535]

Such good content!

[@ananasschijfje]

I’m so happy that you produced this regardless of the expected views, it’s just great content! I’m happy with any encouragement for a more human-centred focus, which may lead to a broader diversity of coffees in the local shops and thereby a richer experience for everyone. And correct me if I’m wrong, but could I see this as a (less explicit political) sequence of the decolonisation video? As a deep dive into the experience of flavour from a biological as well as social perspective. Despite different predispositions and social influence on one’s experiences, the “objective” notes and preferences are dictated by a rather homogenous and thereby unrepresentative group. In that case it might be worth it to update the info underneath the decolonisation video to promote this video :)

[@abul7uss]

I really loved this video! I want to share it with all my friends but they already think I am weird without making them watch a 25 min video on flavour! You guys seem really awesome it makes me want to travel to India and hang out with you guys! I was drawn to specialty coffee after tasting a coffee on March of 2019 that I fell in love with. I chased that flavour which I later realized is acidity. I grew up loving sour flavours and adding lemon to my food so I guess that is my bias.

[@natejohnson5897]

Brilliant!

[@thebitterfig9903]

Put this on, pretty late at night for me, and figure I'll only watch a third or so. But it's incredibly engrossing and I'm done before I realize.

[@rishab.j]

Great video ! Highly appreciate the hard work

[@krutikarekar3358]

Love the writing on this!

[@davidfix1596]

What brand is the coffee cup/mug on the title screen?

[@Bigbabafoodie]

Absolutely loved this video… hats off for all the research you guys are doing!! 🫡🫡

[@project86xero]

This is probably one of the most overlooked aspects of food and drink. From my disgust of even the finest IPA beers to my girlfriends debilitating reaction to mint. Some of those reactions are personal preference framed by life and experience, an some are more genetics. It's nature vs nurture. Food is both objective and subjective in varying degrees, although it's usually more subjective. An rarity and cost don't always equal good in either metric. An the artistic aspect can't be overlooked. Not everyone can be an artist. But anything can be elevated to an art form. From pizza and coffee to architecture and music. Art is everywhere. Anything that makes the best impact and are of the highest quality, regardless of price, are often created my artisans. Even if people don't recognize them as such. In any case this is a great video that goes beyond face value. Great stuff.

[@simply_psi]

I'm a bit late to the party on this post, but I'm here now. I found it well presented, researched, and totally fascinating. Thank you for the effort you put into this. I don't understand why some things we are told must taste like other things why do we want wine, coffee and chocolate to taste like other things, I want my coffee to taste of coffee not peaches or cigars or gravel. I'm really sorry, but a large proportion of this snobbery is a small group of people who are trying to make themselves seem more cultured and sophisticated buy intimating that they taste actual strawberries in coffee or wine, yes different varieties, location and processing will result in different tasting coffee and wine, but you will never actually taste strawberries or peaches ib coffee, you may taste similar characteristics to peach or strawberry or chocolate or smoke. As for what is better tasting surly that is down to personal preference what people prefer rather than an objective quality standard, is a Rolls Royce a better quality car than a Citroën 2CV well if you want to carry a box of eggs over a ploughed field the 2CV is actually a better quality vehicle than the Rolls Royce so quality is subjective when it come down to taste

[@aramse]

Thanks for watching and commenting. So the idea is to do away with snobbery cuz the goal is to be more inclusive. Coming to tasting notes, the only way to describe how something tastes is to use other foods and smells, so it’s less about wanting coffee to taste a certain way but more appreciating that it can. Also coffee is one of the most aromatically complex drinks in the world so it’s fun to explore this aspect of it. At the end of the day, if you look at specialty coffee, it’s a hobby and people get really into it and it’s a lot of fun. Now the flavour attributes you gravitate towards is entirely your choice and there’s no right or wrong there. Hopefully that makes sense. :)

[@pablosanmartinvarela1773]

Amazing video, but MICHELANGELO WAS MY FAVOURITE NINJA TURTLE and you did not explain how that affects my coffee preferences.

[@aramse]

Haha, thanks! Perhaps your love for pizza? ;)

[@wazzup105]

I do like "specialty" coffee, as in single origin.. Like someone described.. sure, sherry as a mix of wines fortified with alcohol and it is OK, sometimes really OK even.. but a bottle of wine from a certain region has it's own merits. Some are mediocre, some are awesome Same with fruit. Maybe someone can engineer fruit juice that is just THE BEST... but .. I still like a granny smith apple even if it is too sour, or the (for me) kinda weird taste of lychee... What I like about coffee i(and beer, wine, or fruit and apparently chocolate) is the diversity. Sure I like some more than others, but limiting myself to "the best" would make me miss out on everything else. And if that specialty coffee makes that the farmer gets a decent living and the "manufacturers" don't get so wealthy they can take a plane to the office... makes me feel a bit warmer inside as well. It's all part of the experience. If I just need the caffeine as an ergogenic stimulus I just pop a pill.

[@randomriftvideos]

If a certain coffee enthusiast based in the USA wanted to try these high quality Indian coffees, is there a good online marketplace for this? I live in a bit of a coffee desert so Im used to ordering in.

[@jknnr]

Amazing!

[@39anonim]

Very interesting topic, so many good points made. I wonder about the different weight grading system, if other things you mentioned would have an impact on the grading score besides cupping. Would it make a difference if few core people like James, Tim and others would try to push it foward? Or would all "considered great" coffees be just based at, lets say 85+, because they would all be grown organically and ethically the same way, so in the end only the q grading would make the difference? Isn't it almost like this right now?

[@aramse]

This is a great point and to be fair, we haven't really come up with an entirely different system at all. It was more like throwing ideas out there - the likelihood is however the system evolves, it will have to be a combination of score + subjective elements. A plain score just can't communicate nuance is what we think... But a weighted score may at least be a step in the right direction.

[@petergiuliano8527]

Fantastic video, and such a well constructed argument (I can totally tell how much work it was). Congrats! I totally appreciate your deconstruction of the myth of quality objectivity in coffee. I absolutely agree, for all the reasons you give and more. I have two very small comments. One is a joke at approx. 11:10. You say "the sheer power of branding is why people still drink Starbucks coffee." I know it was a joke, and I don't want to hold you to it, but Starbucks is actually a great example of the larger point you are making about flavor diversity. Starbucks and Peets are in many ways the polar opposite of the approach to coffee that Wendelboe has advocated: dark roast vs. light roast, earthy flavors vs. floral flavors, thick body vs. light body. Though marketing and other "vibe" aspects are really important extrinsic attributes that do drive perception and liking, Starbucks is a totally valid specialty coffee flavor style, just as Wendelboe's is. Many people love it, and there are more 2nd wave style coffee companies than you might think. In our consumer research, a large number of specialty coffee consumers- like half- identify their roast preference as "dark." And this brings me to my next point: from my position, I don't see the dominant specialty coffee flavor profile as being as monolithic as it might seem. And, bless Tim Wendelboe, but I don't actually think he and his friends (I myself might actually be thought of as one of those) changed overall flavor preferences all that much. What he and others did do is help create a kind of coffee style that became celebrated for a few years. But throughout that time, there was lots of flavor diversity- roasters roasting darker and using the kinds of coffee that a Third Waver might turn up their nose at. The great news is that, due to Aramse's work and others, people are becoming aware that there is great joy in diverse flavor experiences. The new equivalents of Wendelboe are advocating for different flavors, different species (like robusta), and other origins. This is what's great about what's happening now: geographies, cultures, and styles of coffee are becoming more diverse every day. And this is fantastic news. YOU DO YOU COFFEE PEOPLE!!! Again, congrats.

[@aramse]

Hey Peter, thanks so much for your very thoughtful note and apologies for the delayed response! 1. This is a very fair point - I guess the joke we were trying to make was not to discredit the work Starbucks had done to get coffee to where it is today or their choice of darker roasts etc, but more that even within the dark roast / earthy sphere, there are independent roasters and others who do it with a lot more nuance and care. Again, this is of course personal preference, but our experience with Starbucks coffee has been more that they use these blanket dark roasts to make it easier to maintain consistency across their thousands of branches rather than to specifically highlight certain flavour characteristics. 2. You are absolutely right and I have read some of the research published by the SCA, NCA and other coffee publications about consumer propensity for medium and dark notes, which is in fact quite a divergence from (for wont of a better moniker) Tim & co’s preferences - yourself included? :) The goal to highlight Tim’s quote was that he’s done amazing work for the industry, even if niche, and has really changed how people think of coffee. The point we were trying to make is that amongst professionals and connoisseurs there is a strong preference for specific flavour characteristics (currently, in this wave) whether it’s content around how to brew, which brewers to use, etc etc or even equipment development and which characteristics new age grinders are trying to pull out for example, so this could sometimes lead to a disconnect from the larger coffee consuming population from specialty - yes, they may be buying medium or darker roasts, but no one is talking about it with serious thought and it isn’t being highlighted as much. So our take was more that if we have other people who feel strongly about different flavour characteristics, bringing them into the fold would increase the number of people specialty coffee and content can touch. We have nothing but respect and admiration for the work that Tim has done. We are excited for the next waves of coffee to see the next generation of Tims and James, from different countries, backgrounds and experiences. Absolutely - there is great joy in diverse experiences and thought. The industry has had great mentors like yourself so far, and our approach with Aramse has always been to look at things through a different lens whilst trying not to sound dismissive of the hard work put in by others before us. Thanks again for taking the time to leave a comment on here.

[@petergiuliano8527]

@@aramse Thanks so much for the thoughtful response. I really appreciate your framing your (very valid) opinion about Starbucks as personal preference. One thing I love about this video and your approach is that it situates personal preference as a valuable thing in its own right- not objective or universal, but nonetheless important and worthy of respect. I was part of a generation of coffee professionals who wanted badly to frame certain coffee opinions as absolutes- a goal you rightly criticize. You're also very right that in the internet coffee space, one coffee ideology has really dominated. I'm comfortable calling this ideology "Third Wave" since I think the term was coined to describe that way of thinking (in fact, Trish Rothgeb's article in which she coined the term was ABOUT Tim Wendelboe!). Other "Third Wave" institutions like the barista competitions and coffee auctions sometimes seemed to support a narrow idea of coffee quality. The oft-used metaphor was of a pyramid- with "bad quality" on the bottom and "specialty" on the tippy top- which is a literal narrowing of quality, and a hierarchical, domineering visual. One of my colleagues likes to use a sunburst instead of a pyramid when talking about quality- it's a more expansive, inclusive, diverse, and positive metaphor. Like you, I have deep respect for the very clear coffee ideas of Tim and others- they created a distinct and powerful coffee culture. I also agree that it's not the only one and it's not the "best" one.For a long time now, people have speculated about what the "next wave" in coffee is going to be. I myself am not inclined to give it a number, but instead to recognize that in recent years, a few coffee leaders have embraced a more diverse approach to flavor and quality. You two at Aramse are at the vanguard of this movement, and I am grateful for that. But you say it better than I do when you write: "We are excited for the next waves of coffee to see the next generation of Tims and James, from different countries, backgrounds and experiences." I completely share this excitement! Keep up the great work and I look forward to forthcoming videos.

[@robojimtv]

It doesn't apply to coffee but there's this commonly applied flavor Arabs universally tend to hate in certain types of meat that we call Zankha which is kinda the greasy small that gets left behind by eggs on a plate or by boiling chicken as is. It's very hard to describe in English and is a concept that is alien to many (but not all) caucasians and even among many Asian communities, the concept doesn't exist either. My wife is especially sensitive to it. I will hopefully never experience zankha in coffee but it's just part of the whole association of flavor to culture and geography.

[@Uddinina]

I am from a small region in Italy (we also speak another language) and, more than the taste (I don't eat meat), I can recall the smell of it (egg on the plates, but also certain ways to cook chicken and pork). We have a name for that smell: freschin.

[@heisenberg19989]

had a latte at a CCD in a railway station once . never again. if i am having coffee, i would brew it myself .my socializing tool is chai

[@tommihommi1]

While maybe there was a conscious effort to push coffee more into the direction Tim Wendelboe and his colleagues liked, this is what it is from my perspective: I thought I didn't really like coffee and only had it opportunistically and with lots of milk until I discovered light roast fruity coffees, that totally changed my outlook. The coffee market didn't ask for it because people who liked that profile *weren't necessarily in the coffee market yet*

[@aramse]

Yes, you are right - a lot of the market may not have been aware of such coffees even existing. Either way, if a few of these coffee professionals didn't love it and sing its praises, the market may have never known! Or it would have happened another way...

[@meatgeorge]

Very interesting video, and yes I had an audio laugh at 11:52 Poor Jamie Oliver, but it is his own fault, and I'm ethnically Italian, which is allegedly meant to be what he's good at. 😂 When it comes to coffee, living in Australia I know all too well about the differences in people's tastes. Our reputation as a coffee loving nation is true, but it's milk based drinks with dark roasts which is by and far the dominant player here. Filter never took off here, the only black coffee here is a "long black" which is basically an Americano assembled in the opposite way. There are some places that will do a batch brew but most of them are not well done, and places doing a manual filter are extremely rare. Medium and dark roasts rule the roost here, burnt flavours as a flat white seems to be what most people like, where for me I love lighter roasts with a preference for tropical fruit notes. My wife is like most Australians, darker roasts though she prefers ones with strong chocolate notes and a dash of milk. Thankfully I have gotten good at dialing in her darker roasts on the Flair 58 too. Taste is incredibly personal, I also come from the whisky scene too and the diversity in taste preferences are pretty wide and varied in that scene too. As you mentioned, taste itself seems to be something we don't really know alot about. But something we don't know is something we can learn. And discovering the unknown is humanity's greatest trait.

[@tgkuruvilla]

Best video yet!

[@eyepatch8149]

Michael Angelo is my fav ninja turtle and i can vouch that it effects my taste in food👍👍

[@CesarSandoval024]

All I know is that my 5bar starbucks bag espresso late from my flair pro brewed in 25 seconds taste WAAYY better than a late you buy at their starbucks store. I like to say this; flavor is subjective, But I do know when a coffee tastes like shit.

[@jayr5191]

Wow, "slow clap"

[@sharangsharma426]

Just spat out a twenty dollar cup of geisha!! 🎉

[@GonzaloB69]

Who the he'll pays 20 dollar in a coffe cup? That's stealing

[@davidpaul3821]

I enjoy your videos but, you don't have to try so hard to be funny. I value your videos for the content, not the jokes that seem so scripted they mmake me cringe.

[@SpencerDonahue]

You guys would do well to not vault Tim's opinion into gospel, he's often missing the mark on a lot of things. His opinion on natural processed coffees is about 10 years behind the curve and yet he's still an absolute prick about it, acting like only once he looked into it did natural processing techniques improve enough for him to warrant their appearance on his menu. Spare me the pretentious crap, he's just playing catch up and wants his perspective to seem almost Messianic.

[@santhoshsurneni]

Awesome video touching a lot of very important and often undermined aspects. Thanks and keep the good work coming 😊

[@leggylongshanks]

Great video, thanks for the work put into this!