What Is the Draw of Traditional Liturgy?

[@shamelesspopery]

I had already recorded the episode by the time I saw this, but a Protestant KZbinr named Dillon Baker has an interesting take on this question. I think it dovetails nicely with the points I was trying to make here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIqvg6iMrpWnbLM

[@frankie1376]

The study of finding out what it means to “worship” is what ultimately led me to the Holy Catholic Church. There are so many clues! I love that today Joe has shared yet more evidence that there is truly rightly worship and only God can determine what is acceptable, not our own flawed interpretation. Lest we be like Cain, let us worship like able, malchizedek, Abraham, and ultimately the way Christ showed His chosen priests in the last supper.

[@timrichardson4018]

I like the analogy of a dance. As a former protestant, one thing I love about the mass is that the priest really isn't central in the mass. He's mediating in the person of Christ who is central. He as a person almost doesn't matter. And we all have our roles to play. I go to mass not to be entertained, not to feel a certain way, not even primarily to be fed. Though all of these things are fine in themselves, and being fed by the Eucharist is certainly among the most important aspects, the primary reason I go to mass is because I have a job to do. As a follower of Christ, I have a duty to participate in offering sacrifice to God, to unite myself with Christ as an offering given to the Father.

[@joelancon7231]

Joe I listen to you on Spotify almost I just want to say that you are the apologist who does not just change the way I argue, but who genuinely has made my Christian life better. The first video I saw from you was your video on whether or not Protestants Worship God properly understood. That changed the way I went to Mass and my mindset while doing it, your recent video podcast on Mary and the Davidic dynasty, informed my meditation, your podcast on envy caused me to reevaluate how I reacted to the recent election. You are doing such good work helping us Christians not only to wreck protestants, but genuinely look more like Christ whose name we bear. Thank you brother!

[@Jaximus37]

As someone who was a baptist and went to everything i could, i soon realized i straight up don’t care about what aunt Nancy’s opinion is on x bible verse after going to these bible studies. I would be sitting in a room full of 30+ people and everyone had a different opinion on what x bible verse meant. After reading the Bible myself, I have since converted to Catholicism not because “i want it my way” but because i want it God’s way and to me Catholicism is it after looking at all the evidence (specifically the beliefs of the early church fathers ie. Ignatius of Antioch). God bless.

[@Psalm34rws]

🙏

[@deutschermichel5807]

God bless you

[@marvinavilez1]

Aunt Nancy’s opinion is hilarious 😂

[@ethanmiller5487]

You have just made Catholicism the way you want to worship and have fallen into the thing you tried to avoid. You are assuming Catholicism is God's way. Why? That same evidence in the Bible has led people away from Catholicism. It can't be the evidence itself.

[@Psalm34rws]

@@ethanmiller5487 Catholics have more evidence than just the Bible

[@MrDavidObeid]

As Shia LaBeouf said, it doesn’t feel like someone is trying to sell you a car.

[@atrifle8364]

Is Shia LaBeouf going to be able to sit in the pews with less than perfect people, at less than perfect Mass?

[@user-bq3lg9ti2j]

A used car...

[@PadraigTomas]

​@@atrifle8364If Shia Labeouf doesn't prefer the Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI can you live with that? Why should you care?

[@patrickmelling8404]

​@atrifle8364 less than perfect people are everywhere, but the craptacular failure that is the NO is much much worse than simply 'not perfect'. It's a faith killer.

[@eve3363]

So you are using a celebrity to justify your belief? Wow!

[@billprorok8115]

As a Protestant converting to Catholicism this is so pertinent. This is what I need. Calvin’s idea of pneumatic presence is an idea I a happy top art with. Great explanation of the universal need of the liturgy. Thank you.

[@MotherLovingChristian]

I’ll be praying for you along the journey!

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

Welcome home. The angels and saints are rejoicing in heaven. God bless you.

[@ji8044]

The great irony of this video is that it goes directly against what Paul wrote. He insisted that all the ritual customs and observance be stripped away from Mosaic Law, leaving faith in Jesus alone as the basis of salvation.

[@robertotapia8086]

Welcome home

[@John_Fisher]

@@ji8044 The Christians who learned the faith in person directly from celebrating the breaking of the bread with the Paul and the other Apostles had a different understanding than you about what Paul and the other NT authors were and were not trying to get across. If I could meet them in person, I would not be prepared to tell them that your understanding of the message received from the Apostles is better than theirs.

[@FahlosueeWoWStream]

Leaving a comment just to push the algorithm! More people need to see this, God's will be done, especially when it comes to how He desires to be worshipped! Thanks for another great episode Joe!

[@andrefouche9682]

I attended mass Sunday in Vareş , Bosnia Herzegovina while on a business trip I didn’t understand the language but I could follow and it was so worth it. Fun fact an amazing friendly Turkish Muslim couple offered to take me to church because I had no transport. They sat with me through mass and afterwards thanked me for the privilege.

[@larrys4383]

Thanks for sharing a positive and relevant story.

[@betrion7]

They thanked you for a privilege of being able to drive you. It's lowering onself toward the other - it especially gets trough in some poor countries as people so obviously depend on each other there. They were being polite and in a way witnessed to you with their life/actions. The question is would you do the same thing in reversed situation.

[@anthonyburke2353]

@betrion7 Or they are secretly practicing Christians. Even polite gestures in foreign countries have alterior motives. Particularly when you're seen as an outcast for going against the grain of the norms of society.

[@andrefouche9682]

@@betrion7 These people were not locals nor poor, they were just being nice. Yes I would do the same for them, not being a Muslim I would not participate or perhaps not even go into the mosque if it is deemed disrespectful but Catholic Churches welcome any one that is why they could join me and observe the service. However I would definitely not mind driving a Muslim to his Mosque.

[@betrion7]

@@andrefouche9682 nice, thanks for explaining - I live near by and have a bit different perspective but I guess it makes sense tourist would be in a more commercial area. Sorry for the generalization, I'm glad you and had a lovely experience!

[@RealSeanithan]

It's important for this story to note that I and my family have attended an FSSP apostolate ever since our conversion, so the TLM is all we know. This past Sunday, she was not able to attend due to illness, so she sat the kids down and turned on mass for the day. It wasn't until she got to the vernacular portion that she even realized that this particular Mass was being celebrated in a non-English-speaking country. That will always be amazing to me.

[@pcola4594]

Joe, you do a great job. You engage the content without making silly nuances that result in the invalidation of the premise. Keep on keeping on brother!

[@Ignatiusofantioch87]

The propitiatory sacrifice of the mass is central in every Catholic service. This is the proper worship missing in every Protestant church today.

[@geoffjs]

Correct! Without liturgical sacrificial worship, as commanded by Jesus Jn 6:51-58, Protestantism generally, doesn’t have proper worship, so not “church”, more like synagogue w8th prayer & teaching!

[@johnsayre2038]

A concert with a TED talk, that was a new one to me. Once the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is gone, it's like a law of nature, something or someone has to take His place.

[@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039]

a Law of human nature, I think

[@ToddJambon]

I was honestly just half listening while working; so you might have touched on this. But traditional Liturgy is also the best way to get the same experience when you go to Church in another town. And this is not just on a regular Sunday. You know, for example, that you are getting the Passion reading on Palm Sunday, in which the congregation takes part. Ash Wednesday Liturgy, you know what you're going to get. Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Vigil, All Saints, etc. Imagine if you went to Good Friday Service and, instead of venerating the Cross, the priest could just choose whatever devotion he wanted. Imagine what Father James Martin would do if given options. Having a traditional Liturgy for all occasions is imperative for a Universal Church.

[@atrifle8364]

That effect is from the universal use of a common liturgy. I am not sure why it needs the modifier "traditional". Also clerics have been known to deviate from the script in all eras.

[@ToddJambon]

@@atrifle8364 they can deviate where the liturgy allows. But they don't have carte blanch to do whatever they want.

[@tsukasa67]

@@ToddJambon One thing I wish was a requirement was that for every mass at least the Sanctus should be sung in Latin. I have no problem with vernacular mass and its cool to be able to see mass celebrated in slightly different ways with different languages that people can readily understand while maintaining the unity of worship. But its very difficult for me to imagine how much more powerfully present and true that unity would be displayed if the moment heaven and earth began to intermingle was the exact same throughout all the church in all the world. I know that's still technically happening when its sung in the vernacular but, in my own personal estimation, it becomes more real and visible when we are all saying the same words knowing what they mean. Plus its a fun bit of Latin phrasing which connects us to some of our shared patrimony in Rome.

[@atrifle8364]

@@tsukasa67 - My husband, a convert, is frustrated every time Latin appears, even after all this time. He's an intelligent man but he feels shut out. Do his experience and desires count? Latin has pride of place, but it's ultimately about saving souls.

[@atrifle8364]

@@ToddJambon - Any cleric can deviate at any time. A liturgy is just a book after all, until it's said by someone. When the Missal of 1962 was the current one, you could find all sorts of shingans. Those included: mostly low Masses, slurred Latin, and contemporary hymns. Yes, a small population of self selected clerics, liturgically minded, do high Masses from the Missal of 1962 to spec, today. That was not true when it was 1962.

[@Ladya12345]

This video really convicted me this morning to examine why I got to mass and why I sometimes have trouble going. Thank you Joe!

[@andrewlusk8213]

Joe, will we be getting a long episode this Thursday as it’s Thanksgiving? I don’t need football on Thanksgiving, I need a new Shameless Popery episode!

[@tgoc9263]

maybe both!!

[@shamelesspopery]

Just recorded it today!

[@johnnyosprey6056]

4 hours of “What’s wrong with Puritanism…” 😃

[@rappmasterdugg6825]

Probably about the Chiefs!

[@PhilipMartin-d8c]

The marriage feast of the lamb of God! How awesome is that! Total union with God.

[@saldol9862]

I’m enjoying the content. It’s great for long drives

[@wenshan9101]

Simply brilliant! Especially the bit on Ratzinger's. Thanks!

[@guyguytchombi5425]

Great teaching as usual. Greatly edified. Thanks shamless popery.

[@charlesschinkel9230]

Thanks!

[@shamelesspopery]

You're welcome!

[@viperlt86]

Q: What is the draw of Traditional Liturgy? A. It is Good and Beautiful and True.

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

You are also more likely to see people wearing their Sunday best rather than looking like they’re going to the beach afterwards.

[@atrifle8364]

@@femaleKCRoyalsFan - We learn to love our neighbor in their flip flops at a current missal parish.

[@atrifle8364]

A: Also perhaps to not have to deal with plebs in the pews. For an experience that perhaps never really happened in the past.

[@kurtiscecil6326]

"...why so many brilliant Protestants have become Catholic..."? Because they are brilliant.

[@davedrahman914]

Joe knocks it hit of the park again. So relevant!

[@filiamaria8]

Thanks Joe, this was so articulate and explained beautifully, the way you say it is just awesome❤❤❤ I'd love to see more of these lectures/narratives regarding the faith where I could share easily to people who have a hard time understanding complex theological terms😅 God bless you and your team always.

[@ojhn]

I attended Holy Mass very recently at a permanent deacon's renewal of vows Mass. It was accompanied by the conducted and trained young men and women's choir with an organist. I was thinking what a vast contrast between mega church bands and the complex choral music I was listening to.

[@michaelhangartner2520]

Hi Joe, I always appreciate your content, and I thought this video did a great job of contrasting authentic Christian worship with forms that are more self-generated (and self-serving). That being said, this discussion really felt like it could use an accompanying Part 2 where the case is more thoroughly made for why the Catholic Mass does in fact represent something authentically God-given. For example, what are the best sources both in the Bible and among the writings of the Church fathers that provide a framework for the Mass we have today?

[@tsukasa67]

He's technically already made a video about this I think. Its focused on what real worship is and how it connects to Catholic worship and concepts of holiness.

[@Ellie86023]

Attending my first Mass is what converted my heart before my head caught up. When I started attending regularly, I sought a reverent Mass and I haven’t looked back. Knowing it’s not how “I like it” and it doesn’t matter what Catholic Church I attend, the liturgy is the same is a beauty I never found in Protestantism.

[@marklesmeister]

I have been to two funerals of my high school classmate (from 45 years ago). One was Lutheran, the other Presbyterian. Both felt empty.

[@MoliFrancis]

This was soooo good Watching it a 2nd time .

[@RossArlenTieken]

In Christianity for more than 1700 years, right doctrine was understood to proceed out of right worship. I think many of us sense that, and our issue with new forms of liturgy is not so much that they are new, but that they seem to covertly represent ideas meddling with worship, when it should be exactly the opposite direction. Thank you for this talk, it is encouraging to see so many regarding this issue with the utmost seriousness it deserves. The Law of Worship constitutes the Law of Belief. Lex supplicandi legem statuat credendi.

[@jacksoncastelino04]

Praying for the Restoration of Traditional Latin Mass

[@ji8044]

Why? There was no Latin anything in Christianity for at least 400 years after the crucifixion. The original language of Christianity was officially Greek and unofficially Aramaic.

[@robertcoogan6421]

Better to join the liturgy team of your parish to work for beautiful celebrations.

[@roarkkaufman9339]

Its more about liturgical reverence than the language. ​@ji8044

[@ji8044]

@@roarkkaufman9339 Then it doesn't matter what language it's in now does it?

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

@@ji8044 Then why did Saint Jerome translate the Bible into the Latin Vulgate? By the way, can you name all three languages that were on the sign above Jesus’s head on the crucifix?

[@Dhavroch]

I’ve lived in Australia in one of the most secular, least traditional cities, possibly in the world. It’s almost entirely disconnected from its past. There is no sense of the Sacred just about anywhere you go as life is just about doing what you want to make you happy. But I’ve always been drawn to the past and for well over a decade, drawn to the Divine. It is this reconnection to God and the past that brought me to TLM. Luckily (or by God’s providence), this city has a little church that does it, and finally I feel that I am beginning to connect properly to God as well as the vast and ancient Catholic tradition which has been fundamental in shaping my culture.

[@atrifle8364]

It's the Missal of 1962. Pope Benedict modified it. If you want the ancient traditions of the Roman Rite, connected with a living tradition, then you'll need to find a current missal parish.

[@Dhavroch]

@@atrifle8364what do you mean by a current missal parish?

[@ji8044]

"There is no sense of the Sacred just about anywhere you go as life is just about doing what you want to make you happy." Wow, that's terrible. How do you stand it?

[@atrifle8364]

@@Dhavroch - I mean one of the ordinary Catholic parishes you're probably driving by on the way to the Missal of 1962 Mass. Australia is going to be mostly Roman Rite.

[@Dhavroch]

@@atrifle8364 isn’t that the Novus Ordo promulgated from Vatican II?

[@MotherLovingChristian]

An innovative take as always! Thanks, Joe

[@triconcert]

Truly on point, well articulated and sourced, and very helpful! Thanks Joe!

[@JenniferMcMann]

🙌 yes, i think the male-only Priesthood is a draw for men too, particularly young men. A female "pastor" can't shepherd men on how to be the spiritual leaders of their families, only a man can do that. Women in this role in protestant denominations is growing numbers unfortunately 😕 i would think young men are drawn to the unchangeable male Priesthood, among many other things of the Catholic Church.

[@Maranatha99]

Many protestant denominations, or even non denominational churches, don't believe in female pastors.

[@ji8044]

If it's a draw, how come the number of priests has fallen so incredibly low? This from the Catholic News Agency "From 2014 to 2021, the report finds, there was a 9% decrease in active diocesan priests, a 14% decrease in active religious priests, a 22% decline in the number of seminarians, and a 24% decline in total priestly ordinations per year. Only 30 of 175 dioceses ordained an average number of priests at or above replacement level over the five years from 2016 to 2021, according to the report. Dioceses in which the retirement of many priests is imminent may need to ordain two, three, or more priests to replace retiring or dying clergy."

[@JenniferMcMann]

@ji8044 male priesthood is drawing men to the pews, i wasnt referring to ordination rates.

[@ji8044]

@@JenniferMcMann That is certainly not true as outside of Spanish-speaking Catholics, attendance is in steep, steep, decline. "Catholic Mass attendance has dropped from over 50% in the early 1970s to just about 25% in the most recent data." In fact churches in the northeast are pretty much empty of Mass attendance, the midwest is getting there, but the southwest is increasing because of immigration. Unfortunately the Catholics in the rest of the country hate the immigrant Catholics That's why Trump won 54% of the Catholic vote, a big increase.

[@jeremias-serus]

@@ji8044This is all a result of the tragedy of the 80s and 90s in US Catholicism. If you look at post 2021, it’s plateaued and poised for rise.

[@True_Neutral]

13:00 very well said and explained

[@anonymouscrank]

The wreckovators of St. Hedwig's Cathedral in Berlin didn't get the memo.

[@calledtorome]

St Hedwig?

[@anonymouscrank]

@@calledtorome thank you for the correction

[@calledtorome]

@@anonymouscrankhave you managed to see the inside? I read that it reopened this week. I also live in Berlin

[@anonymouscrank]

@@calledtorome I'm nowhere near Berlin. There are plenty of photos online.

[@deutschermichel5807]

​@anonymouscrank On youtube you can find the reopening Mass of last Sunday, Christ the King, with the Archbishop of Berlin. The St. Hedwig Cathedral is very nice. The central placement of the symbol-rich altar is very interesting. The round building is inspired by the Pantheon in Rome

[@BensWorkshop]

Good work Joe.

[@NeutronJon-Rev]

Looking forward to this.

[@sheylamercado9801]

Thank you for this and your ministry Joe! ❤️

[@phishphan6596]

Joe ---- big fan. Maybe no bigger fan than me (maybe tied with me!) ---- but honestly, the title of this video, seemed to me (maybe mistakenly) to be about "traditional liturgy" (i.e. TLM, Traditional Latin Mass). Even though I am a bit tired/weary of that subject on youTube videos --- I gave it a spin, since it was your video. Turned out, it was much more expansive and very different from the narrow treatment of TLM. Loved it. Have shared a good bit already.

[@damnedmadman]

Thank you Joe for this episode, from the bottom of my heart 🙏 Yes, when Jesus Christ said "do this in remembrance of me", the Apostles clearly knew what ritual He meant by "THIS".

[@mariace4848]

“Traditional Liturgy is more fitting to the grandeur of God” ❤

[@dizzynoggin]

Thanks again, Joe.

[@John_Fisher]

I think that the average length of the Tuesday episodes is gradually increasing and I am here for it.

[@Maranatha99]

U left without saying good-bye.

[@John_Fisher]

@@Maranatha99 Hi Carolina. You're right, it's been a little while. I'll have to look back and see, I wonder if I missed a notification or had a reply disappear again.

[@peterv7258]

I attend a regular Catholic church. I am new to being Catholic, so like it's only been about 3 or 4 years, and less than a year since my confirmation. We have cantors who sing the psalms, and for the holidays they bring out the whole chorus. Everything is in English. It's all pretty nice, and I try to be very focused on the fact that I am there to meet Jesus, though sometimes my mind wanders. But I would say this -granted I am only 2 minutes into this video - I think Peterson's remark about asking what it means is incorrect (though I can accept it within the context of the way he approaches these things, and I think if you can lend some generosity toward digging into that his perspective has merit and interest, though it isn't Catholic theology for sure). I think asking what it means is on point, to the extent that the meaning of both the ritual, and aesthetic content, are about the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I think Peterson is addressing not the meaning of the ritual, per se, but the meaning of the aesthetic experience of the ritual. There I would suggest is something worth noting and which I think the Novus Ordo can lack at times, and that is the very serious and somber and devotional aesthetic quality which the Latin Mass has (to the extent I am familiar with it - I know there are many forms of even the so-called traditional Mass), and I imagine the Orthodox Mass has also. I do believe that just like the beauty and sparseness of Gregorian chant, and the beauty and majesty of the church architecture, these things do have a communicative and performative aspect which lends itself to the gravity of the occasion and the beauty. I think that is one of the big things that the Traditional Latin Mass crowd is gravitating toward. It feels fixed and rooted in the past, like the architecture of the churches themselves. and like you said, and antidote to the vagaries of Modernism.

[@OldRomanTV]

True of the TLM certainly - not so much the Novus Ordo 🙄

[@karlheven8328]

Amen

[@philosopher-2007]

The more I learn, the more I become a die-hard Catholic

[@EricN571]

I agree with him On the liturgy,art , architecture and also need to focus on silence, reverence, dressing appropriately From the laity.

[@tony.w9966]

exactly the reason why pope francis should'nt have done novus ordo or those weird reforms so suddenly, if you wanted a universal mass, you should have standardised one for all different rites to participate and done it moderately, while maintaining the TLM as a relevant mass for all to participate not outright restrict it

[@okj9060]

The Latin mass is the way to go

[@deutschermichel5807]

and the Byzantine? And the Coptic? And the Lombard?

[@jdub3999]

Are you TLM or Roman Catholic? Attending Sunday obligation and worshiping God in the Roman Catholic liturgy/mass is the way to go. If you prefer TLM, happy for you and I truly mean that. It just feels like we are dividing ourselves like the Protestants sometimes. God Bless.

[@okj9060]

@@deutschermichel5807 maybe, haven’t been yet

[@okj9060]

@@jdub3999 just advocating for the TLM not trashing anything else. If there’s a draw to a traditional liturgy then I recommend the TLM. That’s it. Thank you for you blessings

[@deutschermichel5807]

@@okj9060 I have only been so far in the Roman Rite. But from what I see online I kind of fear that I might have to sit too much in a TLM. In a Byzantine Mass I can at least stand up

[@fij715]

What is the difference between Catholicism without tradition and protestantism?

[@protestant77]

TRUTH!

[@dynamic9016]

Really appreciate this video.

[@geoffjs]

Holy Mass is both scriptural & based on Sacred Tradition

[@robh7418]

It would be really nice to include links to the articles, videos and books you reference in the description section. I would find it helpful if all the Catholic Answers Guys did that.

[@flyesouisi]

Isn't worship fundamentally sacrifice, as opposed to prayer. Is there a problem now because we confuse the two. I mean, prayer could be sacrificial in a spiritual way, but it often is not not even that. And the mass is a form of sacrifice given to us by the victim It is His sacrifice primarily and ours only inasmuch as we join ourselves in His. So, its is His rite, not primarily ours, and so it should be as much the same no matter where it is done.

[@kwazooplayingguardsman5615]

no matter where? sure, no matter how? no.

[@John_Fisher]

Regarding worship being fundamentally sacrafice: If you haven't already seen it, I recommend Joe's video from about a year ago "Do Protestants Really Worship God?". It works through the important distinctions to be made between preaching, praying, and worshiping (though there are situations where more than one of these actions are simultaneous) and how these distinctions are often lost in this day and age.

[@thomasjorge4734]

Within the Circle we look at each other and Fence out God, instead of Facing Him.

[@olwethuphiri4177]

This was wonderful....please do more on worship and what it is...perhaps delving in the patristics. Also the problem would be who's to say God is saying he wants to be worshipped ritualistically...what authority?

[@damnedmadman]

"Do THIS in remembrance of me"

[@vinciblegaming6817]

God gave specific instructions in how to worship Him to the ancient Israelites. We get some rubrics on the sacrifices in Leviticus, but we don’t really get an order of worship in the scriptures used to be read out loud. However, there are hints in the histories and testimonies in the Jewish tradition pointing to a liturgical method of worship ordained by God. John, in Revelation, observes a kind of liturgical worship going on in heaven… the angels and saints singing “Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty”. A great deal of the Catholic liturgy is taken from Revelation, seeing Revelation as testifying to a heavenly liturgy… and if it’s in heaven, it is what God desires.

[@John_Fisher]

If you haven't already seen it, I recommend Joe's video from about a year ago "Do Protestants Really Worship God?" for a deeper dive on this topic.

[@gregjohnson3151]

An excellent video. In the Catholic context while Joe is right to mildly suggest Mass should be celebrated better regarding these two draw points, it's also painfully obvious to anyone familiar with the liturgical tradition of the Roman Rite that the Novus Ordo which has been in use in the Church since 1969 is lacking both those aspects, in itself; it is not merely a matter of how it is typically done. Let's take a look at each. 1. Embodied worship - the traditional Mass in the Roman Rite features many signs of the cross, genuflections, incensations and other movements about the altar by priest and servers. There are points too for the laity to mirror such actions themselves. Nearly all of these are absent in the NO, which has a much reduced, flat ceremonial. It's much more text-based, declaration heavy in its presentation. 2. Not 'have it your way' - the traditional form has very few options (eg the Asperges rite) to be decided by the celebrant, such that any given celebration will look almost identical to another. The NO has a *huge* variety of options that affect any given liturgical celebration: multiple Eucharistic Prayers, Penitential Rites, what parts are said or sung, what sort of music is used, the prayers of the faithful, the Responsorial Psalm, etc. It goes on and on. Again, these are aspects built into the NO itself, regardless of what happens in a particular celebration of it. Therefore we must say that it is not really a traditional rite of the Church, even if it can be offered in more traditional ways if one so desires. It never should have been introduced.

[@atrifle8364]

When in use, typical Mass experiences with the older missal involved laity saying rosaries at Mass (really!). The older missal was also mostly low Masses, which were about 60 minutes and involved cotemporary hymns. Vatican Ii happened because much of the laity and many of the clerics didn't care about Mass at all. It was just show up and go through the motions sort of thing. Just because the innovation wasn't in the book, doesn't mean it didn't happen. They absolutely did. The complaints here are based on two things: 1)Talking points that don't have very much familiarity with the differences in the two liturgies or awareness of the 6 other approved rites in the Catholic Church. and 2)The assumption that the high Mass to spec Georgian chant form was the norm before Vatican II. It was not. In fact the situation was so bad that liturgical reform had been spoken about since the 1900. The Tradition of the Catholic Church is to honor the bishops and Peter in their decisions about the faith. The most Catholic thing anyone can do is to stop armchair quarterbacking Vatican II and go to their local Mass.

[@karlheven8328]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@atrifle8364Don‘t go around telling people what the most catholic thing to do is, that is certainly not a christian thing. Furthermore your description of pre Vatican II as something where most people did mot understand is not accurate at all, people were educated in the family and in the catechesis and they often knew latin enough to be able to participate in the mass. The problem nowadays is that praying the rosary is not considered participation against Mediator Dei sought, meanwhile you understand it as something mere activist. The reform of the Mass did not in fact come from a lack of reverence in the TLM, it was the Liturgical Movements attempt to get back to the alleged „roots“ of the liturgy in the early church, combined with ecumenical efforts with Protestants in central Europe, mostly Germany, Belgium etc. It was thus not an effort of genuine reform but the building of something new. If you want to read more about this read the Spirit of Liturgy by Pope Benedict XVI./Ratzinger

[@Nontradicath]

As someone who grew up in the FSSP, I find the TLM to be quite "ordinary", in the sense that it is "normal". I have only been to probably like ... 30 or so Novus Ordo masses in my whole life (compared to attending daily latin masses for years), and, while I definitely did find those to be less reverent than my FSSP chapel, the NO masses were more "out of the ordinary". All of this to say that I think that someone's experience with the TLM will depend in large part upon the way that they were brought up. I think that humans can get used to almost anything, and I am certainly "used to" the TLM. This is not an inditement against the Latin Mass by any stretch, I just think its worth pointing out that people like me, who grew up in the traditionalist movement, generally don't fall into the kinds of people that Jordan Peterson seemed to be describing there.

[@johnisaacfelipe6357]

Didn't you stop being catholic?

[@johnisaacfelipe6357]

You're an adamant excatholic and you're giving advice on how a catholic liturgy has to be?

[@Nontradicath]

@@johnisaacfelipe6357 No! I am definitely not giving advice on how any liturgy should be!

[@johnisaacfelipe6357]

Okay, just checking. I think the opinions of someone who is antagonistic towards the church should be read while being aware of that antagonism in mind. Makes for more honest discourse since people would know one another's biases

[@Nontradicath]

@@johnisaacfelipe6357 I agree that's it's important to be aware of bias and that's why I try to be so upfront!

[@MichaelMarshall8686]

That was great

[@eplongmichael8880]

Great job, Joe, God is using you mightily to destroy false worship.

[@Deathbytroll]

I know a lot of young men converting to orthodoxy from Catholicism for this very reason

[@karlheven8328]

While I totally agree with most the criticism of the Novus Ordo , I find it hard to believe that a true believer in traditional catholic dogma and teaching would ever convert away to „the Orthodox“ . All who truly love the Scholastics, the infallible dogmas, the sacred celibacy of priests in the latin tradition should never even think about converting to a schism. For me this is pure astheticism and confusing the order of things, which the TLM precisely does not. I will despite my criticism of this Pontificate always remain a traditional catholic here in Germany (converted in 2023 from Lutheranism)

[@killianmiller6107]

I can relate to that idea of trying to be happy on my own terms rather than God’s. It’s as if I can’t see the happiness God wants to give me, even in mass. It’s easier to find happiness in watching KZbin and shows, in creating things, in playing games with friends, etc, so part of me wishes I had a taste of heaven (or at least I experience more of heaven from Liturgy) to better orient my desire for God’s happiness, since that’s what I’m “supposed to do” as a Catholic.

[@Vigula]

Dear Joe. Hope you don't mind this observation, but this is the first time I've heard the word banal pronounced the way you do. Where on earth did you learn that? It's actually pronounced more like cabal rather than like cable. Please check it out. God bless, V

[@theeliteelite1873]

It really hit me deeply the first time I attended a Traditional Latin Mass. Coming from a low church Baptist/nondenom upbringing it was very foreign to me. But it immediately struck me as so much more solemn and reverent. I felt that even more when I started attending an Orthodox Church and witnessed Divine Liturgy. After seeing those, I get why the Protestant objection to the veneration of and praying to the Theotokos and the other Saints is so incredibly silly. It’s clear most Protestants don’t know what worship actually is. To them prayer is the peak of their worship, so if someone is praying to Mary, well that means he/she is worshipping Mary! Without liturgy, without a proper view of the Eucharist as our participating in Christ’s sacrifice, without a service that even the layman participates in (instead of just sitting in the pew passively listening), they just can’t understand.

[@EricRednecke]

I dont have an issue with TLM. To be Catholic is to be traditional. We also need to realize we have 24 rites and many liturgies. Regardless of language, we should be able to follow the Mass. My issue with rad trads is when they are mad. They are rigid. They camm NOM bad. How many litugies are valid and licit through 2000 years of the Church? I believe there are any number of valid liturgies, not just one. Jesus chose 12 men. Each one, in their travels to spread the Gospel and the Church could have given us 12 dufferent liturgies, all good but with slight variation.

[@lareconquista]

To keep insulting the whole category of people based on a few internet interactions, that is not the smart way. I am sure if I go to any parish, even the best Novus Ordo parishes, I will find a homeless man, a slightly mad man, and quite a few very odd men. It would not be intelligent for me to base my entire assessment of the Novus Ordo on them.

[@irodjetson]

Why does he want to equate traditional forms of liturgy with modernist monstrosities? young people are being drawn to "traditional" forms of worship, not to modern NEW order kinds of worship.

[@jessehermann7266]

I'm a visual learner, seeing the mass teaches me things

[@saldol9862]

I remember reading somewhere that one of the reasons why the Oxford/Tractarian movement in England saw success was that for illiterate lower class people, a divine liturgy of very visual acts appealed more than tracts and scripture that they couldn’t read.

[@jessehermann7266]

Makes sense to me, nonverbal communication

[@po18guy-s4s]

The Elevation! It instantly converted a secular Jewish man. kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6XTgZtmlN5nqMU

[@Chris82151]

Great as usual, but you ignored the elephant in the room.

[@jeremias-serus]

Which is…?

[@atrifle8364]

@@jeremias-serus - The elephant is already here on the comments section. I really wish we could find apologist who just goes to a normal parish.

[@knightsrepose9448]

Yes. He did. And what Peterson was saying or implying. Disappointing.

[@hynjus001]

Is a sweatshirt covering his actual shirt Joe's version of modesty?

[@shamelesspopery]

Is it working?

[@canibezeroun1988]

Currently fostering and my teen foster is clearly bored by church unless it's "children's church" (Wife and I almost split because she doesn't want to be Catholic). I have thought of telling her that it's good that she doesn't want to go because going to worship God is a sacrifice. I'm going to have to go that route because as much as I love my wife, she's not equipped to handle the concept of Christian duty yet. Pray for us.

[@Maranatha99]

Where does God say that going to worship Him should be a sacrifice??? Look at the Psalms! They are full of jouful worship

[@ji8044]

It sounds like she already made a big sacrifice.

[@jeremias-serus]

@@Maranatha99Worship is more than merely saying kind words, a big error Protestants and Muslims have gained over time. Worship strictly theologically speaking requires some sort of physical, external sacrificial offering, as per God teaching the Israelites in the Old Testament, notably Leviticus 1-7.

[@Maranatha99]

@jeremias-serus I agree that there are many layers to the word worship. But that person was referring to the weekly encounter with his fellow believers in his parish.

[@Maranatha99]

​@jeremias-serus my church starts at 9:30 am. My husband & children would sleep longer on Sundays if they could. Getting up for church is a sacrifice for them, but being in church is a joy. That's what I was trying to explain. I play habdbells 1x month & have to be in church one hour earlier (8:30 am now, 7:30 am with the previous schedule). Yes, it's a sacrifice for me, specially in the winter. Preparing lessons for small groups or children's message means I have to sacrifice of my tone for that. BUT ...being in the assembly of the saints with the fellowship of Jesus is joyful, and I look forward to that time.

[@shaulkramer7425]

I love this episode, and I get your point, but how do we know how God commands us to worship?Not in terms of the Eucharist... obviously, but in terms of the aspects of worship other than the sacrifice? In what way are different Rites permissible? How do we know that TLM, or Novus Ordo, or anything but Aramaic based Chaldean Rites are not the kind of innovations that the Lord would not permit a la Nadav and Abihu?

[@atrifle8364]

We trust the Church built on Peter. That's the end of the road, because otherwise it's just Protestantism again. The current missal of the Roman Rite is used by millions worldwide. Whatever Peter baptizes is Catholic and true worship and that's the beginning and end.

[@shaulkramer7425]

@@atrifle8364 that's fair.

[@gc3563]

If the Protestant church service is not what biblical worship of God looks like, and Protestants say that the Catholic or Orthodox masses are not it either, then I guess NOBODY has had it right since the last supper??? That’s where Protestants are left then I guess, so everybody just do as you will and hope for the best… I myself do not believe this, as I am Catholic. And the subject of this video is partly what brought me into the Catholic Church, praise God 🙏🏻

[@bd555]

It needs to be recognized that we completely altered our traditional liturgy as Catholics, all in the name of updating it for modern man and to make it more appealing to Protestants. That is antithetical to what we should be doing with our liturgy and it is one of the main reasons so many men stopped going to Mass after the liturgical changes. I do hope we genuinely return to our own traditional liturgy, which is definitely more appealing to men.

[@atrifle8364]

We did not alter our "traditional liturgy". The tradition is to alter the liturgy at all times and eras. Further, most people before Vatican II were attending a Mass much like the current missal...except they felt no obligation to pay attention and quite often said rosaries instead.

[@CathNcamo2]

Former Protestant. I’m drawn to the Tridentine mass for two reasons. The new mass for Protestants isn’t much different than praise and worship. I want to worship as a Catholic. Which brings me to the next point.2 The vast majority of saints in the Church worshiped at the Tridentine Mass. It made them saints so why would I want to do something different. Bonus it really does seem to be the meeting heaven and earth

[@jedeo299]

Are there any videos on how to start the “conversion process”? Long time Baptist here finally realizing the lies I’ve been taught about catholics.

[@geoffjs]

Suggest that you approach a local Catholic parish to enquire about their RCIA programme.

[@amcasci]

Thanks Joe. I am currently reading The Spirit of the Liturgy. Ratzinger is a thoughtful theologian. Before I forget it, I have a suggestion. You and Javier Perdoma should put your heads together and start talking about how much you have in common rather than what divides. You Catholics might stop calling us separated brethren and embrace us Lutherans as true Catholics and we Lutherans might want to stop calling Rome a great whore. We have so much in common. I grew up in the Oman church and now I am a lutheran pastor. I feel deep kinship for both.

[@karlheven8328]

Lutherans do not have the same faith regarding essential doctrine as catholics, that is why we call them seperated

[@Kitiwake]

Is tradition what the Mass is about?

[@skylergroen]

Worship is about God. Not you. Traditional liturgy gives God our best. Yes, God gives us everything in the Eucharist, but the first intention and starting point is worship of God. Good job Joe.

[@atrifle8364]

Worship is a gift from God for us. God does not need worship. We need to worship God in order to have a relationship with him. Frankly, given the online presence of much of the traditional movement, would I say a traditional liturgy is not people bringing their best. When anyone claims that worship is about God, I am personally am at the point that I hear "Worship God my way or it's the highway."

[@Ofestlady]

Yes, I agree that worship is FOR God not FOR us. If I enjoy it, am entertained or inspired, that's great. But it is my obedience to God's command to worship Him and my desire to please Him that is more important than what I get out of it. the Mass is perfect worship because Jesus was/is the perfect sacrifice.

[@firebearfl643]

With the TLM the focal point is the sacrifice of the cross and how we are joined through the Eucharist in that sacrifice where with the Novus Ordo it’s all about the show centerstage,no crucifix on the altar, choir is centerstage and we no longer face Christ we now face the priest who puts his back to God.

[@patrickdtx3638]

I honestly don't know what NO parishes y'all are attending, but that doesn't describe any of the ones I've been to; it doesn't even remotely describe the liturgies I've attended. (And please keep your 40 year old clown-mass footage to yourself.) Maybe stop shaming fellow Catholics; you're as guilty of the "have it your way" approach as a great many other people.

[@atrifle8364]

Do you even know why the priest faces the way he did? It's called ad orientum, to the East. It's the name of "Easter". Nobody is turning their back on God. Everyone is facing to the East, in anticipation of God's return. Except not all church buildings could be built that way, so it's a fake/liturgical east. A decision was made to drop it because nobody understood it. The TLM isn't even the "TLM", but the Missal of 1962. It's just talking points that understand so little.

[@karlheven8328]

@@patrickdtx3638It‘s the quality of the prayers not just the reverence of a liturgy…

[@evanwineandwhiskey]

it's pronounced banal. not banal

[@shamelesspopery]

I *think* I pronounced it both ways in this one, just to cover my bases...

[@jamesMartinelli-x2t]

This is why the Nervous Disorder Mass enervates me.

[@marklesmeister]

You may be using an alternate pronunciation of "banal." Check and see if this is the pronunciation you wish to use.

[@shamelesspopery]

There are three acceptable pronunciations of banal, and (historically speaking) they're all wrong: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/banal.

[@ethanmiller5487]

Worship is only shallow if you the person doing the worship mean it to be shallow. God knows how serious you are. You can't read the hearts of others, so don't tell them what is in their hearts. That's your unfounded opinion. Worship feeling shallow is you. All your feelings are you and only you. Don't use others to scapegoat your feelings about how serious you are about God. Speak only for yourself.

[@John_Fisher]

I agree that God only knows the serious and well intention meanings in the hearts of others, and I don't think that Joe is calling that into question. I think the more important aspect of Joe's discussion remains that even if we have the best of intentions in our hearts, it is better if our worship is generated by what God has ordained rather than our own innovation.

[@triconcert]

@@John_Fisher Well answered.

[@owighokaro]

What then is true worship

[@geoffjs]

Liturgical sacrificial worship by a validly ordained priest in the unbroken line of apostolic succession.

[@ransomcoates546]

The Novus Ordo, for the purposes of this discussion, is the equivalent of a Protestant service.

[@atrifle8364]

For the purposes of this discussion, rejecting the hard work of countless Catholics bishops and endless research by them and the active promulgation of a liturgy by several Popes over decades is to declare a form of Protestantism.

[@PalermoTrapani]

No, there is no Rite of Consecration in any Protestant service, and nothing like the Roman Canon for the Eucharistic prayer in any protestant service, even a Liturgical one found in Anglican or Lutheran services.

[@ransomcoates546]

@ The experience Jordan Peterson is describing cannot be had via the secularized Novus Ordo invention. The ‘endless research’ done by Bugnini and his henchmen seems laughable to historical scholars of the liturgy today. The Novus Ordo is a Protestantized imposition from a dreadful epoch in Church history, both vulgar and childish. Young Catholic men in particular realize this. And so Traditionalist seminaries are full to overflowing, while their NO counterparts close and consolidate. Time will only make Peterson’s point clearer.

[@po18guy-s4s]

Methinks you talk more than listen.

[@ransomcoates546]

@@PalermoTrapani And how often do most Catholics hear the Roman Canon? And why, if we are to believe the polls, do more than half of the members of the Church not believe in the Real Presence?

[@garyworth6046]

Worship is not a scriptural TED talk. Jordan Peterson said as much in the video clips you showed. Worship is recognizing God, as Trinity, expressing live to him, praying, asking, thanking, meditating on Him, receiving the Holy Sacraments. And much more. THAT is the attraction of the Church with the complete truth. What I cannot explain is why Jordan Peterson, with such insights, is on the fence about religion, especially given the lovely sign given him and his beloved wife.

[@triconcert]

We continue to pray for him that his heart and mind will be opened

[@atrifle8364]

A question, if you can be patient with it. And thank you sincerely for letting me at least ask it, even if it goes unanswered. Is there anyone at Catholics Answers that regularly attends the current missal of the Roman Rite? My sense of the current slate of otherwise excellent apologists, other than maybe Jimmy Akin, is that most are avoiding the ordinary experiences of being an ordinary Catholic in the Roman Rite. Yes, the flip flop people. Yes, the bad music. And yes, that's the ordinary part of the Mass. Jesus is calling us to love them, too.

[@shamelesspopery]

I go to a very reverent Novus Ordo (with plenty of Latin, incense, etc.), so I guess it depends on what you mean by "the ordinary experiences of being an ordinary Catholic in the Roman Rite." Same missal? Yes. Flip flops? No.

[@atrifle8364]

@@shamelesspopery - Thank you for the answer, sincerely. I'm glad to hear it. I go to a similar parish. However, it's easily one of the smaller ones in the diocese. That said, I grew up in the more contemporary waters of the Roman Rite. There are a lot of the faithful there too. People genuinely who do love Jesus and tried to teach me way back when. While I would love for all of the faithful to be more traditionally reverent, I am painfully aware that even my dressed up state is still nothing compared to God. St. Thomas Aquinas has a wonderful prayer about approaching the Eucharist. It for sure doesn't involve thinking about anyone's state of dress, other than our own poverty on the point.

[@po18guy-s4s]

Those who leave the Church are distracted by noise and visuals. Those who remain, tolerate the noise, but focus like a laser on Christ. Nothing else matters.

[@michaelbaker2552]

Since Vatican II there have been two Roman Catholic churches. The post-Vatican II Roman Catholic church is Liberal, egocentric, pro-abortion and post-modern with a "God does what I want" point of view. The pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic church is Conservative, God-centric, pro-life and traditional with an "I do what God wants" point of view. My wife and I are on a pilgrimage to attend Mass at every basilica and cathedral in the United States. We have been to 200 so far. We find that converts want to talk about their faith, they corner us and almost preach their jot to us. Invariably they are traditional Catholics. It seems that the Catholics that leave the faith are of a post-Vatican II point of view while the Converts coming into the faith are of a pre-Vatican II point of view. This is pushing the Catholic church in the United States in the more conservative direction.

[@robertcoogan6421]

Sorry, but none of what you say is true. It's only empty rhetoric to work up your anger. If you are in favor of our Tradition, review Ignatius' discernment of spirits. You will see how Satan is poisoning your soul.

[@jeremias-serus]

There is not two Churches. There is only one Church.

[@atrifle8364]

There is one Church. People who accept Peter and the Church and people with strong Donatist impulses who are rejecting the faith.

[@ji8044]

@@atrifle8364 Actually there has been at least two churches since roughly the 6th Century, when the Roman Catholic Church split away from what is now known as the Greek Orthodox Church.

[@atrifle8364]

@@ji8044 - Church history is way more complicated than that. However, Peter has always been the rock of the Church. People wander away.

[@True_Neutral]

i think you miss something important about the experience, by assuming that the experience is only during mass. Mass isn't the only thing that happens. After mass, there are bible studies and group exercises, etc. Basically after mass, there is quite a bit more to the experience, if you are willing to participate. Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't willing to participate! Or, due to livelihoods, are unable to participate. I feel it is errant, to assume the experience only exists in a 1hour time frame on Sundays only. But alas, modernity and technology! Or, in your words, that pesky "have it your way impulse"!

[@atrifle8364]

The point of the Litgury of the Word is Bible study. It's so there that only scant attention will show the themes. We just need to pay attention at Mass. Not everyone needs or appreciates extra Bible study or group exercises. Ultimately the complaint here is that the Church didn't mandate a Sunday experience my way. 🤷‍♀️

[@nahomafriend]

joe

[@shamelesspopery]

yes

[@nahomafriend]

@@shamelesspopery i love you man. i love this podcast.even though i am a member of the ethiopian orthodox church,i feel really close to my catholic brothers.and i want to contribute so is there any way i can do that ? the payment system here in ethiopia is not that good so if there is something i can do, let me know.

[@atrifle8364]

We can never give God the worship He is owed. We can and should try, to the best of our ability. However, at the end of it all, Mass is for us wayward humans. We need Mass. We need to worship God, God doesn't need our worship. What does any of us give the Creator of the universe? Let's trust Peter and the Church when it comes to His worship. It's all for our benefit.

[@UrielAngeli147]

God has personal preferences too, and the TLM, or any other traditional rite, reflects God's personal preferences _as expressed by him personally_ far more than the manmade NO.

[@atrifle8364]

​@@UrielAngeli147- God established a Church on Peter. As the Vicar of Christ, Peter tells us how God wants us to worship Him. This is about trusting the Church built on Peter, rather than our own judgements.

[@UrielAngeli147]

@ Peter has to answer to Tradition. The Pope is supposed to promise God to preserve Tradition, and not to substitute his own private judgement. And just because something is _permitted_ does not mean it is _good_. By their fruits you shall know them, and the fruits of the NO are bitter indeed. A parsimonious and poisonous harvest.

[@atrifle8364]

​@@UrielAngeli147​​- Peter answers to God, which is why we don't get to judge the First See. The Tradition is that Peter makes the traditions. As for fruits, I am sorry to say I mostly see pride and anger coming out of the traditionalist movement, at least online. The current missal is producing saints and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

[@UrielAngeli147]

@ funny, IRL - face to face- I have seen a little supercilliousness from the Trad crowd, but far more anger, disgust, vicious mockery, and, yes, hatred from NO hardliners. And no. We are not required to turn off our brains, even though we are required to render "that obedience sufficient for salvation", as the Angelic Doctor calls it. I would recommend you read and contemplate his words on "indiscreet obedience, which obeys even in matters unlawful".

[@paulmualdeave5063]

Catholicism is growing throughout the world. Not just people that celebrate the Missal of 1962. Even France is growing under Pope Francis’s stewardship and we have more conservative clergy now. I see people saying the Missal of 1962 growing when there is also a factor of supply and demand of churches allowed to perform it. A low supply makes it look like it is tremendously growing. More churches would hold this sacred liturgy if people would turn away from the dissenters and slanderers.

[@deutschermichel5807]

Donʼt forget Africa

[@damnedmadman]

Who do you mean by dissenters and slanderers? The bishops who hate Tradition and slander everyone who doesn't approve of their innovations?

[@paulmualdeave5063]

@ Which bishops? Slanderers? Ive give you an example. Practice CCC 2478 and then tell me the Brazilian Catholics that went to the Vatican had a pachamama idol. Have you read Donum Veritalis? The dissenters haven’t.

[@ji8044]

Catholicism is actually in very steep decline in Europe. There are very few priests and many of them come from outside of Europe. This from the Catholic News Agency "The Catholic population in Europe fell by nearly half a million people in 2022 but continued to increase in every other part of the world, according to data released by the Vatican this week. According to the Vatican numbers, released by the Holy See’s Fides News Agency, the Catholic population in Europe was just under 285.6 million people at the end of 2022. That is about 474,000 fewer Catholics than was reported in 2021." Of course the number of 285 million is wildly exaggerated but even the Vatican recognizes a decline.

[@damnedmadman]

@@paulmualdeave5063 The Pope has several times called traditional Catholics rigid or stupid. If I had to mention all bishops who dissent against the traditional faith, one comment wouldn't contain them. Check out the new 7 "synidal sins", this is the picture of our episcopates. How many bishops stood up to defend the Faith when the Pope reduced Christ to one of many ways to God? Cardinals Schneider, Strickland, maybe a few less prominent. Cardinal Müller recently published a letter where he points out that the synod was actually full of Sins against the Holy Spirit. Is he slanderer and dissenter? Or those who invent new "sins" to accuse those few dissenting against their heresy?

[@OmarDenison]

Which liturgy has remained entirely UNCHANGED since the year 632?

[@ji8044]

Which liturgy didn't exist for at least 300 years after the Crucifixion?

[@jeremias-serus]

TLM has changed as well in numerous aspects, notably the addition of pews because of Martin Luther’s teachings.

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

@@jeremias-serus and I’m sure people with young children appreciate being able to sit, especially mothers who need to nurse a baby. I know my legs would turn to jelly if I had to stand for the entire mass or kneel the whole time because that would not be good on my knees. A little over a year ago, which means a year and a ~2 months, I was using a wheelchair due to foot surgery recovery.

[@atrifle8364]

None exist that way. Literally none. The "TLM" is the Missal of 1962 and it was last modified by Pope Benedict.

[@atrifle8364]

@@jeremias-serus - It turns out my "hippie dippie" local liberal parish without the kneelers is far more like the traditional early church than the "traditional" parish I attend.

[@atrifle8364]

Inside the context of the Catholic Church, the Missal of 1962 in America has been turned into a way to rebel against Peter. That's why it has become an issue, not that the bishops/Vatican are universally thrilled with more relaxed approaches to Mass that sprung up in the last half of the 20th century. I go to a traditionally minded current missal Mass/parish in my language. I appreciate it. However, It's not utopia although my son also does appreciate it. Even a litgury not in my language has value. However, my full intellectual interaction with the liturgy matters. It's how part of the fall begins to be corrected. Ironically, I find that many ex-Protestants are overly attracted to the traditional type movements. They are used to pursuing religious experiences under the guidance of their intellectual pursuits. They become attracted to regularly attending a Mass that is only partially feeding them, thanks to a language barrier. They aren't learning to love their neighbor at the place where it matters most, the foot of the Cross. Nor are they interacting with God's Word or assisting the priest with his work. Ultimately, the end of the road is still "I am going to make this worship as I see fit", instead of trusting the Church.

[@rose-annrumpus5772]

Perhaps, or maybe they just see the reverence given to God and the Eucharist at the traditional Mass. I attend a NO and a traditional Mass (in the UK) and have recently spent some weeks travelling abroad attending several different NO churches. Whilst it is always comforting to have the same Mass celebrated wherever I go and there are lots of beautiful things about NO Mass - for example school children attending on a weekday and participating - there are also the same distractions at the Novus Ordo: lots of chatting and lack of prayer before and after Mass, bad music and a lack of reverence when receiving the Eucharist. Also the churches all over the world seem to be run by women (God bless them for keeping the parish going. I'm not knocking them, as a woman who has been very involved in catechesis in my own parish, but it's disconcerting to see such a lack of men involved in preparing for Mass and serving). I love Mass wherever I go and I am grateful for all our priests and there are some really good and orthodox pastors. But there is also lots of wriggle room; room for alternative words and gestures in the liturgy, room for obfuscation and confusion or just blandness in the homily. You just don't get that in the Latin Mass. I do happen to like Latin, so perhaps I'm not the best judge, but I don't really think the language is a barrier. You can absorb yourself in the action and meaning of the Mass or you can follow the Missal which has Latin and English side by side, and so many extra devotions, especially around adoration of Christ in the Eucharist. If you have been brought up in the Novus Ordo as I mainly have, you can get used to being involved in prayers and responses and going to the traditional Mass is a cultural change, as you can initially feel that you aren't important anymore (which you're not, in a way!). My own preference for the Latin Mass is not about rebellion, it's about beauty, reverence, awe and wonder; giving to God what is owed, as Joe said. At the NO, people get up immediately after Mass and start yacking to each other. At the TLM, they stay kneeling, knowing that Jesus remains present, physically, for at least another 10 mins and praying and meditating on the gift of His very self that they have received. I'm also very grateful to be just the same as everyone else, receiving kneeling and on the tongue; whilst priests are mainly accommodating of this in the NO Mass, particularly if they know me, it can be awkward and difficult to receive in this way and occasionally can be met with hostility.

[@atrifle8364]

​​@@rose-annrumpus5772- The way I would summarize these thoughts is that there's preference for the experience of a Missal of 1962 Mass and the average pewsitter and priest does not make the grade. The foot of the Cross was full of distractions and less than ideal people. An ordinary Mass will be quite that, which is why it's excellent vehicle for learning to love our neighbors.

[@rose-annrumpus5772]

@@atrifle8364 If you're implying that I don't love the priests and people at my parish that I attend every day or that I think I'm somehow better than them, you're mistaken. Nor are the people at the TLM 'better'; nor is it a matter of preference. There are objective realities in each and one is objectively more beautiful. One example of an objective reality is that Latin is a language that was nailed to the cross, along with Greek and Hebrew. There is a reason that demons are tortured by Latin prayers more than prayers in the vernacular.

[@damnedmadman]

No, that's not why is became an issue. Yes, many bishops are actually thrilled with the changes and hate traditional Catholicism, precisely because it draws the young while their innovations are withering along with the innovators.

[@ji8044]

Peter was a Jew who didn't speak Latin and never presided over a single Mass.

[@michelangelope830]

Atheism is an impossibility. If religion is false doesn’t make atheism true. If religious people are deceived doesn’t make atheists don't deceived. I challenge you to understand why the atheist logical fallacy is censored. Who benefits censoring knowledge?. My truth is atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is the religious idea of the creator of the creation to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. Atheism is a logical fallacy that assumes God is "sky daddy" to conclude wrongly no creator exists because a particular idea of God doesn’t exist. God exists and the intelligent creator of the universe is not what atheists call "sky daddy". To understand God exists you have to understand the kalam cosmological argument: what has a beginning of existence has a cause because from nothing can not be created something. Logically it is impossible the existence of an infinite number of causes, therefore an eternal first uncaused cause that created what has a beginning of existence exists. God exists because not all reality can be created, God exists because logically it is impossible the existence of the creation or finitude without the creator or infinitude. I challenge you to understand why the most emblematic remark of atheism is "who created god?" that means "who created what is not created?". To abandon atheism you have to understand atheists lie to protect religion, and when they are told they don't care, and when they are told they laugh, and unfortunately the victims are innocent and vulnerable children. Spinoza tried to end religion with reason and failed because atheists lied about Spinoza's God. To end the war the discovery that atheism is a logical fallacy has to be news. Emergency!, innocent and vulnerable children are dying in absurd wars. Thank you.

[@adam7402]

The catholic mass is just as inundated with sin as hillsongs rock concerts.

[@patrickdtx3638]

Where? Please provide a specific parish where I can go and witness something on par with Hillsong.

[@atrifle8364]

That's grossly unfair statement and untrue.

[@adam7402]

@patrickdtx3638 that's kind of my point 👉.

[@adam7402]

@@atrifle8364 in what way?

[@atrifle8364]

@@adam7402 - I have attended a current missal Mass for decades. That includes with guitars, in gyms, in student centers, etc. It's not a Hillsong rock concert and never has been. It's just a blanket statement that's untrue. It makes people feel justified in not going to Mass.

[@Vroomerz]

With the God of the Old Testament being the same God of the New Testament and still is the same God of today, worship has always been about sacrifice. You worship in the temple. You discuss and teach in the synagogue. Rock jams and a Ted talk aren't worship the way God wants it. The Catholic Mass is a sacrifice. And I'm going to worship the way God wants me to worship, not my way.

[@williambranch4283]

It's deep, but not for everyone.

[@John_Fisher]

What's not for everyone? If we're talking about the way that Jesus told us to Take this, Break this, Eat this, Drink this, Do this - all language of sacrifice and offering - so that the prophecy of Malachi 1:11 will be fulfilled, then it is for everyone.

[@williambranch4283]

@John_Fisher WWJD? He didn't practice Christianity as we have received it and mostly not as Paul taught it (see The Didache and the Apostle's Creed). Personally, High Church style has grown on me, but it took decades of Low Church experience.

[@atrifle8364]

@@williambranch4283 - High church style was not popular when it was the only available missal in the Roman Rite. Most Masses were low Masses, meaning 60 minutes and contemporary hymns. Vatican II only did away with what was not particularly popular in order to put some of the high mass rituals in as mandatory for everyone during the Church calendar.

[@williambranch4283]

@@atrifle8364 Prots are used to 15 min sermons these days ;-)