Why Did Vatican 2 Happen? w/ Dr. Richard DeClue

📺 Full Episode: • All Your Vatican 2 Que...
Richard tells the story of the moment in History that called for an Ecumenical Council. And the change that happened in the world between the first and second councils.
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[@kieferonline]

8:14 that quote about going to Mass but not really living it--struck a chord with me. This was exactly how my family and community were in the 1980s. I don't remember my parents or any friends ever expressing a personal religious statement EVER outside of Sunday Mass. Faith was simply not discussed voluntarily. At the Catholic school I attended, any student expressing a personal religious statement voluntarily, would have been ridiculed on the playground. In the 1990s my parents divorced, along with the parents of about 40% of my classmates. Of course, they reaped what they sowed. In college I drifted away from the Church but am now back. Finally, I realized it wasn't the Church's fault, but a widespread failure among families. I stopped pointing the finger at others and pointed it at myself. I would no longer blame the Church but will ask for its forgiveness for wandering astray. Forgiveness! Repentance! Redemption! That is the lesson and has always been.

[@luke9747]

Amen

[@themysteriousdomainmoviepalace]

I was born in 1955 so I lived through this. There are incredible masses in the cathedrals, not so much in the small churches but they were still better than after Vat2. The Church lost so many people after it, not just because it was the 1960s, but because generations like my father's, felt totally betrayed and went atheist. This might have been the fault of bishops and priests, but folk mass was so disgusting that even at 10 years old, I was grieved.

[@admiralbob77]

Yeah, none of that really has anything to do with Vatican II. Vatican II was an ecumenical council describing the place of the church in the world, not a training session for bad folk guitarists. That largely came after.

[@MrCusefan44]

While this will sound cold, it’s a hard truth as well - if Vatican 2 was enough to convince your father to become atheist, he was at best a marginal Catholic to begin with. The challenges of life - which we all deal with in some way - were going to cause his weak faith to collapse eventually. Vatican 2 just served as the rationalization for what was going to inevitably happen.

[@themysteriousdomainmoviepalace]

@@MrCusefan44 He git into Ayne Rand. It is what it is, but you really find out the importance of the father role when you have this happen. I was 10 or 11, so.... Lots of families basically stopped taking our faith sreriously and fell away.

[@themysteriousdomainmoviepalace]

@@admiralbob77 Massachusetts bishops have undermined the Church there ever since.

[@MrCusefan44]

@@themysteriousdomainmoviepalace - Rand described her philosophy of Objectivism as "the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute". It’s a horrifying ideology; the idea that a man’s personal happiness is his moral purpose should be repellent to anyone with any familiarity with a Christian worldview. That Christian worldview would entail an understanding that we are all fallen, and that “following our heart” to what we believe will make us happy is the road to self-destruction. That there were so many men of weak faith that they fell away from the church due to Vatican 2 is a tragedy - but the blame needs to be put where it belongs. Those men failed to maintain their own faith and pass it on to their children - regardless of whatever reasons they invented to justify their actions, they will need to answer for why they failed themselves, their families, their nation, and future generations at final judgement. Hopefully they have an adequate answer, and it’s much better than “I didn’t like Vatican 2”.

[@soulscry]

I was born in 1956. I was raised traditional Roman Catholic in Diocese of St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada. Our priests were Italian priests. Our nuns at the school of St. Mary's in Welland, were Carmelite. We had processions in the streets at the Holy feasts of the Virgin Mother and Christ the King. Our masses were in Latin. They were reverent and holy. One day in late 1968, I went to Saturday confession and to my horror I noticed a drum set and electric guitar on either side of the altar. What followed were vestal changes that were what I considered "tacky" and English and Italian was offered instead of Latin. The fright was so too great for my 13 year old heart. I left and never returned until recently (2017) after 49 years of exile. Two things happened. My 24 year old son expressed his intent to become Catholic and I was also being called back too, BUT I could not bring myself to enter any Catholic church UNLESS it was traditional with ALL THE TRADITIONAL PRAYERS AT THE ALTAR INTACT. With the help of a devout friend, I located that very particular apostolate nearby. After the generous guidance of two priests, my son was baptized in the Roman Rite and I, by the grace of God was forgiven and accepted back into the church by my bishop. I now live a sacramental life. All by the grace of God.

[@jopl4593]

See but that's the thing right? Everything was well and holy and you were a devout Christian, yet you fell away. Sorry if this sounds harsh but the pre-vat2 Church didn't do a very good job of showing you what holiness is if you just stopped practicing Christianity in times of trouble. But I'm very happy you are back!

[@soulscry]

@@jopl4593 I never fell away in my heart. I could not participate in what turns out to be public Satanism! Post Vat II freemasonic infiltrators removed the prayers from the altar that "set aside" things to be sacred for sacrifice...they removed Latin (a language that CANNOT change just like God and His laws), and they pushed the common vernacular (words whose meanings change all the time!) ...Unconsecrated people DO NOT TOUCH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST with dirty hands!!!! That's just common sense, unless of course you DO NOT believe that the consecrated Eucharist is the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST! Do you understand??? If you cannot discern that, you are NOT Catholic either! Post Vat II NOVUS ORDO/NEW WORLD ORDER is NOT CATHOLIC! ITS PROTESTANT! Get that into you head. Its NOT CATHOLIC! Period.

[@dariaschooler]

@@jopl4593you missed the entire point of this story. The modernist changes of Novus Ordo thanks to the confusion of Vatican 2 were exactly what drove the faithful away from the modernist Catholic Church. The exact thing happened to me, and my return to Catholicism was to the traditional Roman Rite, which I was baptized in but was not allowed to follow thanks to Novus Ordo Vatican 2. After 41 years of self exile from this ape of the Church, I have returned to the full participation in the faith in the TLM chapel I attend. I will not attend Novus Ordo clown shows. Perhaps I’m not holy enough to endure the liturgical abuse like you may be.

[@marysisak2359]

@@dariaschooler I agree about the NO mass. I too left the church just as the VC II changes were being implemented. I remember the priest coming to my 8 th grade class to find people that played guitar so they could establish a "folk mass." Remember that disaster. Kumba etc. I left for other reasons. I wandered aimlessly for awhile, read the bible from cover to cover, tried various protestant denominations and then realized that the true church was the Catholic church only to find it no longer existed. I finally found a TLM but it was cancelled. I tried several NO masses but I am not confident that they are valid. I pray a lot of rosaries. I am really struggling.

[@CatholicSamurai]

My general rules of thumb I’ve come to regarding the lead-up to V2: 1) a lot of the things people say were a problem back then were not actually a problem, and a lot of things people say weren’t a problem kinda were. 2) don’t listen to what 98% of people born after 1952 talk about “what it was like in the old days!” you’d be surprised how many people act like they knew the Church inside and out despite being no more than 10 years old when the Council convened.

[@wendyfield7708]

I agree!

[@wendyfield7708]

I am English, aged nearly 90, became a Catholic in 1958 and went to live in Rome. I met St.John XXIII in a small group. I made the vigil in Piazza S.Pietro while he was dying, went to his lying in state and funeral, watched the Conclave results, was in the Piazza at Paul Vi’s election, attended his Coronation, later met him personally etc. there are quite a few of us still alive, so why not ask us?! I later worked in the Vatican as a translator. I was in the piazza when he announced.the Council and heard his marvellous speech there. I also had the privilege as a lay woman to attend the great ceremony during the Council for the 4th centenary of the Council of Trent, with a seat near the high altar. This was during the Council with all the bishops present and just a few lay people. I was given two tickets by the priest secretary of one of the bishops. When I came into the Church in London in 1958 just before Pius XII’s death, the Catholic church had become very closed in and “stuffy”, and hence Pope John’s comments about “letting in some fresh air” made during the Vatican II announcement speech. The fresh air was badly needed. I also have many boxes of colour slides of the Trent Centenary, professional ones. +

[@kerry8506]

Very interesting. Maybe you could be a guest.

[@EpoRose1]

Can you define “closed in” and “stuffy?”

[@bengoolie5197]

I have a question for you: Is Jesus a human person?

[@Flagrum3]

The fresh air he let in was heresy. Vatican II is a counter-Counsil and the Novus Ordo mass is the abomination of desolation.

[@suzannederringer1607]

What a wealth of knowledge and experience!

[@Forester-]

I wonder how much someones perspective on the state of the Church before the council is influenced by geography. Anecdotally it seems like much of the praise for pre council church life comes from the US. I don't doubt those peoples experiences but the US was comparatively shielded from the destruction of two world wars. I'd imagine the situation on the ground looked a lot different in Europe which would have been the background of Ratzinger and most others at the council. Not to mention Catholicism was entrenched into the culture more generally in Europe, its a lot easier to go through the motions of Catholic life when thats the societal norm. The US has never been a Catholic country and has a long history of anti-Catholicism, even today a Catholic in the deep south such as myself will have to answer questions about and defend Catholicism in off the cuff conversations. I'm sure there are some Europeans with a different perspective but its just some food for thought.

[@Quekksilber]

I'm a German Catholic. What I find another interesting point is that much of the indifferentism and secularism that is so detrimental to the faith in Europe is probably also due to the Americanisation of our cultures here, especially on the entertainment-front. In Germany in particular, I think there emerged the desire to be "on the right side of history" due to our past sins in the last century. In my view, this explains at least in some part the fervor for ""reform"" at the Synodal way. Here in Germany, the Church has her harshest critics in the areas where she was most culturally prominent. In Eastern Germany, where I live, people are very secular and there are only about 5% Catholics total among the population, and I have never seen hostility here. I think this could be in support of Ratzinger's view that much of pre-conciliar Catholicism was just a cultural facade.

[@Montfortracing]

Both of your comments are well spot on. You guys bring up very good points.

[@CatholicSamurai]

The European church, and the continent as a whole, had fallen into a deep malaise and apathy after the devastation of two World Wars in a lifetime. The church leaders in Rome at the time (rightly) saw this, but they mistakenly applied that malaise to the entire global church. Europe’s Catholics were struggling, but the Church in most other parts of the world were doing just fine, if not great. V2 never repaired that malaise and apathy, but the strength in other parts of the global Church was lost.

[@Montfortracing]

@@CatholicSamurai I think I know what you're talking about, but if Church leaders applied that malaise to the rest of the world then why in the heck did we allow the European bishops to apply that malaise? It just goes to show you that the European Catholic hierarchy at that time shouldn't have had monopoly on how and where the Church should go. It's not like they're the only bishops in the Church.

[@PintsWithAquinas]

Full episode drops tonight kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5-riYaDj56DacUsi=-vud5Q0h27jwGBgQ

[@jcunha67]

What time does Lofton’s response drop?

[@ironymatt]

​@@jcunha672 hrs later

[@Quekksilber]

​@@jcunha67This evening. ;P

[@josipasunjo3806]

He says that before Vatican II people were coming to the sacraments out of tradition and without reverence, knowledge etc. Well, I'm sad to say that it seems that Vatican II made it even worse...

[@MrSereeus]

I don’t think the changes made to the liturgy directly resulted in this. I think the biggest root cause is the ease of access to pornography , and the media , through music and shows/movies, becoming more and more immoral every decade.

[@justsomevids4541]

So an ecumenical council guided by the holy spirit is to blame, and not the devil destroying society outside of the church?

[@justsomevids4541]

@@Handsomeman2342 the Holy Spirit protects the church, an ecumenical council doesn't worsen the spiritual life of the church. The faithful in general can become worse, yes, due to the devil's influence in society and personal lives, BUT THE DEVIL CAN'T USE AN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL TO WORSEN THE FAITH. Do you even believe in the Church?

[@justsomevids4541]

@@Handsomeman2342 either a protestant or one of those fake traditionals

[@billburtis8616]

The history lesson was valuable. I most appreciate the last few sentences of the video. The fact that Ratzinger observed Catholics were mostly pagan is more true today. Church teaching is often ignored even by our clergy. Most Catholics are Catholic in name only. Benedict XVI said the Church will get smaller. I believe that means those that follow Church teaching will continue to shrink. But that remnant will remain large enough, that as the world continues to become more dangerous and unfriendly, it will be there as a beacon of hope.

[@dynamic9016]

Really appreciate this video.

[@johncolumba7945]

I've long enjoyed Dr. DeClue. A great sober mind.

[@tianamenezes7548]

He talks about how Vatican 2 was needed to accommodate the "modern man," but all that resulted in is the loss of community and lack of proper reverence shown to the Eucharist. That is demonstrated in the architecture of recent churches, i.e., made to be auditorium-style (like protestant spaces) rather than oriented forward towards the tabernacle. Modern man didn't need these changes, rather it needed a church that didn't change when everything else in society was changing.

[@Quekksilber]

I think it is always useful to distinguish between the Council and it's implementation. I think anyone who has had a genuine encounter with the Love of Christ and who wants to share it with others who don't seem to have any apparent consideration or yearning for it, can see how the documents of VII indeed address this yearning. I am reading through the CCC right now, and many times when the Council is cited, I think it has it's finger right on the spot. Keep in mind that things like Catholic Answers, Word on Fire, this channel and many others are some genuine fruits of VII-showing Christ to a world that needs Him, since the Council specifically called the laity to sanctify the world through mission. As a convert, I can say that I probably wouldn't have become Catholic hadn't it been for these apostolates.

[@borderlands6606]

While I share your scepticism of modern church architecture, it's important to ask why churches have to ape the styling cues of medieval gothic. There have been fine baroque, rococo, Italianate and other architectural styles, but these are anchored in time in a way Catholic gothic refuses to be. The auditorium church style is really a suburban school, from a time when Catholic families were still big and cash was rolling in from collections. That investment was never reciprocated in church infrastructure. It's also important to stress the affection of the devout for such parish buildings, with Catholics of retirement age knowing nothing else.

[@davidwozniak1846]

Did you even listen to what he said? He was explaining the fallacy of the “1962 happened for no reason” argument.

[@PadraigTomas]

​@@davidwozniak1846It is possible to respond with a critique, whilst having listened to everything that was said.

[@aleksandrablaszczyk5971]

You are absolutely right. 🙏❤️👍

[@johncopper5128]

Thank you, very instructive.

[@josephmoya5098]

Dr. Declue is a fantastic man. I've been listening to him for years, since before he had his doctorate. Can't wait for this whole episode. His understanding of Church history and dedication to the truth astound.

[@richardrobertson1886]

Shifting the language to your natural language was needed. What the Latin church seems to forget is that the language had already been changed at least once - considering the gospels were written in Greek not Latin, and translated to Latin because it was the spoken language in the Roman Empire. Updating to the language of the people makes sense.

[@maciejpieczula631]

FYI, DeClue has a 6 video course on V2 on the Word on Fire institute yt channel. There he takes a narrative approach to the council. Really worth it.

[@larryhicks4203]

Love this!

[@ginasalis5880]

That makes a lot of sense. Amazing

[@charlesquinn1526]

“By their fruits you will know them”

[@dmcr08]

Nice to hear some even keeled look at Vatican 2 and condition of the Church before it. Great to hear Ratzinger comment. I’ve also heard that people were tuned out to the Latin Mass and saying the rosary instead. You young traditionalist need to listen to all sides of the history of these things not just the loud hyperbolic social media hounds out there.

[@markhelfer6741]

Yes, was there, born in 55. Most people were praying the Rosary and other devotions during Latin Mass, they weren't "praying" the Mass. The concept of "praying" the Mass. However, immediately upon finding TLMs a few yrs ago, instantly understood what praying the Mass meant. I was in Latin Mass altar boy trng when the changes began in mid 60s... one morning before Mass the grade school nuns announced coming changes, clearly recall the introduction of something called an "Antiphon", Mass in the vernacular, more music, the expectation of our "partcipation". Before V2 all received a Latin Mass missal at 1st Communion, but of course missals would now no longer be needed. Then began the guitar Masses, in which I "participated" in that also. Initially everyone just went along not realizing what was happening. Communion in the hand began to be promoted, and while standing of course, quickly followed by the introduction of EMs, 1st were nuns, then general folks out of the pews became EMs. Seem to recall capitulating to "in the hand" in the early 70s - for sure, many resisted. Recall my dad saying as we walked to the parking lot after one Sunday Mass "I don't like this New Mass, prefer the old". My memories of this period are not good.... removal of the altar rails, turning the pews near the front around to simulate a circle, the installation of a homemade plywood altar, nearly all of the historic statues removed - our parish dated to 1860s and our beautiful new church having been built in 1917 so we lost a lot of history in that purge; so sad. Only by God's grace did we make it through, and most likely aided by the Catholic culture deeply embedded in my immediate & extended family. Good news: that 1917 church has been fully restored, statues & all, but unfortunately no altar rails yet - that will come at Our Lady's Triumph I'm sure. Now travel to as many TLMs able to drive to, and increasingly more TLMs are popping up closer to home, their existence kept quiet.

[@DoctorDewgong]

Ayo Thursday popping off on the edits?

[@chadrobert116]

Woah!! I found DeClue's channel last weekend while looking into Von Balthazar's "Dare we Hope" and I have been binging his videos since. He has such great insight. Perfect timing, this will be great!

[@bobthebuildest6828]

the tridentine mass before vatican 2 was also horribly abused, very few high masses, very infrequent reception of communion, vatican two helped with some aspects of liturgical abuse but created a void for some new ones to fill

[@Quekksilber]

That sounds plausible. There were so many liturgical abuses after the Council, because many in the pre-conciliar Priesthood and Laity didn't understand or revere the Holy Liturgy to begin with. It makes all the more sense then that Sacrosanctum Concilium was issued.

[@SurrenderNovena]

Very true! People needed to understand what they were taking part in when they attended Mass. More people were getting educated in secular subjects but learning about religion for the average person was lagging behind. And many were no longer content to participate in a ritual that was in a language they did not speak or understand.

[@flabiger]

I have to agree with this assessment. People argue that everything was holiness and beauty before Vatican II and then suddenly ugliness and secularism came in. However, Vatican II didn't purge the church of all priests saying the Latin Mass and install new only Novus Ordo priests. The priests that jumped overboard on Vatican II were the same priests that said the Latin Mass which leads me to conclude that those masses may also have had their foibles.

[@bumponalog5001]

What are you talking about? It was mandatory for Priests to say the new Mass.

[@chrisevans6532]

You’re only obligated to receive communion once a year, on Easter, I think.

[@propriusly]

Excellent

[@catholatin]

Read Michael Davies trilogy: "Cramner's Godly Order", "Pope John's Council" and "Pope Paul's Mass" and you will have all the information that you need for an ever-deepening dive into this strange and self-destructive movement.

[@Westyrulz]

Very interesting I really enjoyed it.Interesting comments from Cardinal Ratzinger. Makes you wonder when the fall off in Faith really started.

[@susannahobrien1043]

But where was the “renewal”? Did I miss the part where the good of changing the Mass outweighed the bad? We have no priests and the few we do have are often (still) lazy in their approach to the liturgy and the sacraments. The music tends to be awful. Everyone receives like it’s just a wafer. People switch parishes when a priest says you must go to confession if you’ve committed a mortal sin. At best, nothing changed culturally within the church. So it seems perhaps that changing the Mass and all of the sacraments was not the answer… I feel cheated.

[@Montfortracing]

Well you saw and knew what happened after Vatican II, right? The implementation of the Council was incredibly poor. For one example, they got rid of the Latin, even though Vatican II never said to get rid of it. Catholics' faith before the Council was poor, and after the Council, dissident priests took advantage of that and started implementing their own changes not in line with the Council. They used the Council as an excuse to implement those changes. It's also important to note the changes going on in the world that DeClue described. I think that even if Vatican II had not occurred we would've still seen Catholics leaving the Church, mostly because of the revolutions of the 1960s, which was a culmination of a lot of changes in the West that had already been happening for decades.

[@annarumble838]

Right there with you. If there was some good to come out of it well it fizzled out real quick and now we’ve got…what we’ve got.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

but as Matt say at 7:42 it was well before the liturgical changes that Ratzinger saw that the decadence had already set in in 1958, and all the stats fell of a cliff around 1960

[@Montfortracing]

@@annarumble838 well, do you know exactly what that good was that came out of the Council? I'll tell you, and it was the fact that no one read the freakin' documents. You tell me, have you at least read 4 of the documents from that Council?

[@comnenus9745]

The point of the council was renewl, and it failed at achieving it. @@fr.hughmackenzie5900

[@theronnyrecordsshow]

I am currently 81 years old. You were not there. I went to catechism and Catholic school. Prior to Vatican 2, mass attendance was high. Every Catholic I knew was devout and went to mass and participated with reverence. We were not there to socialize. We loved the rituals and traditions. We lived our faith 24/7. When Vatican 2 came to the small parish in our town, the few liberals went rough-shod over all of us and tore down the altar rails, removed pictures that parishioners had donated to the church and took over. The rest of us were stunned. The Church has never recovered from what you call a "renewal." Mass attendance is at record low numbers all over the world and the current Pope continues to draw the Church further to the left.

[@w.f.f.2023]

Don’t forget the decrease in religious vocations

[@TrixRN]

Really looking forward to this entire interview.

[@pippomaneful]

That worked out great, didn’t it?

[@paolarocha5992]

From the thumbnail I thought he was Matt Walsh… oops 🤭

[@oscarcortez9190]

What got me to listen to DeClue was when Tim Gordon admitted that DeClue gave him a filial correction and the correction he gave him was based on facts. It was humbling to see a guy like Tim admit that he was wrong.

[@andrearodigari4840]

I'm from Bergamo (pronunced Bèrgamo😊) My neverending esteem to my Pope John XXIII and the new Augustine, Pope Benedict XVI. The Lord really loves his flock 🙏

[@SaintlySaavy]

As a first gen American, my parents talk about their faith and it was exactly what he is talking about. They were raised as “Catholic” but purely from tradition alone. As a result, of poor catechisis, when my father came to America he walked away. Interesting conversation to have.

[@catherinecomeau8150]

Very interesting! Can't wait to see the rest!

[@mntomovi]

This reminds me of my old addiction. The judgement of trying to stay on or off a substance. The reasons to change. The way the world affected me. Christ makes me love with an open hand

[@CatholicSamurai]

It seems that the impetus for convening the Council was the malaise that set in among Europeans after the utter destruction of two World Wars. But the Church’s leaders at the time mistakenly applied that malaise to the entire global Church. People were sold an idea that, with the advent of the Council, people would be flocking to the local churches lining up to get in… we wouldn’t have enough room for all the converts and vocations! It was very much an “Age of Aquarius” But the reality was that, almost immediately after the Council, the bottom fell out from underneath the Church. Europe never returned to her former devotion, and the rest of the globe suffered immensely. Large swaths of priests just straight up left the ministry, religious vocations dried up, missionary societies (like Maryknoll) either stopped activity or refocused solely on charity projects. Universities tore themselves away from the Church. Divorce rates among Catholics in the West rose, and sacrament numbers plummeted. The yearly convert numbers never really improved. And the Church has been thrown into the greatest crisis of heresy since the Protestant revolt 500 years prior, but now the confusion and scandal and unclarity and heterodoxy emanates from within the Church’s own ranks. Nothing improved, and by every measure everything declined. Yes, African Catholicism took off in the later part of the 20th Century, but that hasn’t been proven to be because of the Council’s reforms. Part of coming to a stable integration of the Council is an honesty that, pastorally, the Council was an utter abject failure. It didn’t teach error, the Church didn’t defect, it wasn’t heretical… but it was still a complete pastoral blunder that gutted the Church in one lifetime.

[@andy41417]

As the protestant revolt devastated Europe Our Lady of Guadalupe added many souls. Same with Africa today.

[@user-tn1xv1vc2d]

Well said. You are absolutely correct. It has been a complete failure. But Archbishop Lefevre did the right thing to save the Faith. The TLM has survived. The Gates Of Hell Will Not Prevail Against It. As we can see Our Lord Jesus Christ is keeping His promises.

[@rutherglenroad8109]

Stunningly insightful and helpful thoughts from Dr Declue. Everyone should be hanging out for the full interview. Great stuff.

[@frjacobsuico]

In my opinion, the real problem lies on how Vatican II is being implemented today. I really think we have to revisit the spirit of the Council and reflect on what we are missing.

[@rachelwilson2487]

Looking forward to the full episode. Dr DeClue is great at clarifying and contextualizing.

[@thomasporrovecchio2600]

This is a fascinating conversation. Looking forward to seeing the full episode. Thank you for sharing.

[@CGAPU]

Was there a revolutionary spirit among the ones that called forth Vatican II (I'm not saying this translated into what this council affirmed)? That's the impression I have, but I could be mistaken.

[@JoelEverettComposer]

I'm at the point I'm praying for a restoration of the Mass of the Ages, and an actual Springtime of the Catholic Faith. The more I read about the background to Vatican II the worse it gets. (All of the behind the scenes political maneuvering). I'd ask two questions: 1.) Why renewal? What exactly needed to be renewed? The world was broken yes post WWII.... but not the Deposit of Faith and the Liturgy. 2.) What renewal? 50+ years later Vatican II has been a failure from what I can tell. It's the fruits - I'm sorry, but we have had horrible fruit in the past 50 years. Just to be clear I attend the Novus Ordo; attended one Latin mass in my lifetime so I'm not a Rad Trad, but facts are facts. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi, and it shows.

[@wendyfield7708]

What do you call the “Mass of the ages”. The first Masses in the catacombs? Certainly not the Tridentine Mass….that is only 500 years old, and only one of several dfferent rites which have alwas been in the Catholic Church.+

[@gunsgalore7571]

I think the defense would be that without Vatican II and the reiteration of the Catholic Faith, the landslide that happened in the 1970s and 80s to today would have been a lot worse. We could have ended up basically like the Episcopalians or something, an absolute shell of a church. And those who think the Catholic Church is a shell right now due to Vatican II has never been to any of the places it is thriving so much right now. In my area (central Texas), the Church is blossoming. So many young people, so much outreach, so many great things. And it's all based on Vatican II concepts: Equipping the laypeople to engage in theology, increased fellowship in the churches, and even things like praise & worship music. (Although I totally get why some people don't like praise & worship - it's not my favorite either. I'm just saying that it is fruitful.) It's a raging success around here. We're winning converts, we're having young families with lots of kids, the Church is alive here. And on top of it, these are not cafeteria Catholics. They believe what the Church teaches. These are people who actually care. I think the places where the Church is falling, like New England and whatnot, are places that saw Vatican II as an excuse to become more liberal, sort of like an analogy to what was happening in the Episcopal Church at the time. That is a real shame, because Vatican II has been the best success possible in places that actually understand what it was about.

[@Braingrandchild]

The ~reforms~ of V2 to the Liturgy and beyond are like those AI images, the longer you look, the worse it gets.

[@jamessauve2419]

@@wendyfield7708 What we now call the 'Traditional Latin Mass' is not 'only 500 years old'. It dates back to the earliest centuries of the Church. It is the Roman Rite, and you are correct that there are several different rites, even in the West. A good book to look at for you might be "The Mass: A Study in the Roman Liturgy" by Adrian Fortescue. +JMJ+

[@paulmaryonyia9506]

​​@@wendyfield7708Yes there were several other rites pre the Quo Primum. But Pope Pius V promulgated the TLM because it best captures the Mass said even by Pope St. Gregory the Great, as it traces its roots to the Apostles. So, the TLM is the Mass of the Ages.

[@askellabsalon7737]

Christendom is NEVER over

[@butter__boi703]

Very curious to see the whole video. Great content as always

[@jamesschiltz132]

Interesting background

[@user-oy7gl9cr4s]

thanks so much for this interview

[@hglundahl]

7:38 If he wrote that in 1958, how could he sign Gaudium et Spes less than a decade later?

[@countryboyred]

Vatican 2 and the implementation of it have been an absolute tragedy.

[@MrCrouchback]

Thanks for helping me see how much the world needed girl altar servers to solve all our problems

[@JHTotusTuus]

7:00 Fr. Ratzinger’s (Pope Benedict) article and the issues he rightly identifies are way more prevalent today than they were then. The “culture” of the Catholic Church has sadly declined greatly, but especially due to Vatican 2 and the “renewal” it started

[@Mark3ABE]

While the Second Vatican Council is often given as the reason for the changes which took place in the Church from the 1960s onwards, those changes would have been likely to take place in any event. It is only necessary to consider the changes which took place in Protestant Churches at the same time. A rapid fall off in vocations to the Pastoral ministry, a fall off in Church attendance, abandonment of traditional values relating to sexual morality, etc. If you actually read the documents issued after the Council, they contain long sections from the Council of Trent, from the First Vatican Council, for earlier Councils and from the Fathers of the Church as well, of course, as long passages from the Sacred Scriptures. The Council was intended to be a sort of “compendium” bringing together all of the riches of the history of the Church into one set of documents, so as to be more readily accessible to the modern world. The Council also addressed an issue which the Catholic Church had never really confronted. In the parable where Jesus says “Lord, when did I see you naked and clothe you, hungry and feed you, sick and visit you…” Jesus makes it clear that it is not only those who formally profess the “correct” version of the Faith (at that time, of course, the Jewish Faith) who will be saved. It is possible to be saved by a direct personal knowledge of Almighty God and doing what is right. Pope Paul VI addresses this issue in his encyclical Evangelii Nuntiandi - “why” he asks, “if people can be saved by living a righteous life, is there any need to preach the Gospel?”. His answer is from the Scriptures - the Gospel is the power of God for salvation, for the Jews first, but also for the Gentiles. However, the old adage “outside the Church there is no salvation” did have to be modified, since the Sacred Scriptures do make it crystal clear that salvation is not to be found simply by being a member of the “correct” organisation. This is why Jesus is so often found with Samaritans - for the Jews, Samaritans could not possibly be saved, since “outside the Jewish people, there is no salvation” was how they saw it, just as Catholics once asserted that only those who were, formally, members of the Catholic Church (and of the Latin Rite) could be saved. So, the Council forced the Church to rethink its approach, in the light of the Gospel and of the Tradition of the Church.

[@randomsudaka2631]

Exactly, sometimes is easier to blame Vatican II, but it tried to mitigate what they saw what it was coming

[@erikbishop7]

What people are really getting upset about, or what I actually get upset about, is the liturgical reforms of Cardinal Bugnini, which upset the authors of Sacrosanctum Concilium. So, it’s not the Second Vatican Council that’s the problem, it’s undoing the weakening of the liturgy’s beauty and richness that was there before Bugnini took over managing the liturgy.

[@timonkokalj5911]

Well put sir.

[@Mark3ABE]

@@erikbishop7 In my personal view, it would have been better to have retained the Tridentine form of the Mass, simply translating it into the vernacular, with the congregation saying the responses, rather than just the Altar servers. Also, the parts which the Priest says quietly so that the congregation cannot hear could have been said out loud, once they were in the vernacular. Then, as a compromise, the Liturgy of the Word could have been said with the Priest facing the people, with the Liturgy of the Eucharist still being said with the Priest facing the high Altar.The prayers at the foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel should have been retained.

[@CatholicTraditional]

@@Mark3ABEBingo! Just translating (partially) the TLM is what should’ve really happened. Other than adding an OT reading 📖 and a Responsory on top of what’s already there, there’s no mandate in V2 to redo everything.

[@peggyhemenger8983]

Thank you so much for this! I came into the church in 2007, and more and more in recent years I am dismayed by the division in this church I so love. Sometimes I almost think of leaving, but where would I go? As long as I believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, I'm staying, and I pray I never lose that faith. I have long been convinced Vatican II happened for sound reasons, thank you for confirming that.

[@joelletaylor6570]

Very informative especially for new converts. Thank you!

[@Quekksilber]

God bless you and welcome Home!

[@folofus4815]

Pat Buchanan’s autobiography, “Right from the beginning” beautifully describes what it was like growing up as a Catholic in Washington DC in the 1940s and 50s

[@cjquinn729]

You mean, growing up deluded in the 40's and 50's....Scary how "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" pertains so well here...

[@folofus4815]

@@cjquinn729 what

[@michaelharing3744]

An elderly nun once told me how well formed Catholic youth were before the Council. The priests would have encyclical study sessions with youth as young as 14. Sunday sermons would quote St. Thomas Aquinas and the Church Fathers. My mother and aunts said their parish was a hub of activities: novenas, retreats, dinner dances, film nights, etc. Everyone met their future spouse at the parish. Then we were held hostage by the Novus Ordo as it turned our once fertile communities into spiritual morgues, where no one knew anyone at church - or cared. Liturgical chant was banished in favor of banal pop tunes; the youth were ignored or treated like stupid children as they were denied serious catechesis. For all the contempt the haters like to dump on the families who have found their way to the parishes who still provide this formation, I would suggest that I think we have more to learn from them than arrogantly dismissing them as "rigid", or "worshipping the ghosts of the past.

[@joemerino3243]

@@michaelharing3744 How did the Novus Ordo actually destroy the community you describe, though? Could it have been correlation without causation? If your priest was so good, why did he replace the chant with 'banal pop tunes?' If the church community was so tight knit and well-formed, what was it about Vatican two exactly that killed it? Making responses during Mass? Hearing parts of the Mass in English? I get that you are not a fan of the Novus Ordo, but I don't understand how you can blame that for the social change you are describing.

[@michaelharing3744]

I don't think English or the people responding is in itself a problem (the Eastern Orthodox utilize these without harm), but the Novus Ordo has failed to convey the Sacrificial nature and purpose of the Mass; its been a magnet for novelties that are corrosive to the faith, such as the separation of the Eucharist from the Alter Cristus by the unnecessary use of Extraordinary Ministers, thus distorting the distinction between laity and the ordained; non liturgical music more formative for Protestant and secular sensibilities (Catholics have been marinated in this stuff for 60 years and will never hear the Te Deum or the Dies Irae); the wholesale abandonment of Patristics and Scholastic theology in our sermons (I grew up in the Ordinary Form and remember plenty of homiletic references to television sit-coms). I don't believe there is anything heretical in the Novus Ordo, but it's anthropological witness hasn't provided the laity with any protection from the secularism and spiritual and theological indifference that has Catholics leaving for Protestant churches six times more often than every one convert to Rome. I don't believe in nixing the new liturgy , but it will become extinct at this rate.

[@chrysrobert5026]

By the way, on your Roncalli comments-- on his death bed he clamored "Stop the Council." I was a Priest back then and no one was looking for a Council. Vatican 2 has destroyed Catholicism-- in ways no one could have imagined.

[@christopher.96]

I would say we culturally and psychologically have still not fully recovered from the horrific 20th century (from a war perspective). We are still dealing with the fall out today.

[@delvingeorge2807]

Good to see De clues back !

[@hglundahl]

7:26 What you speak of now was probably already a huge problem in Germany, precisely as it was for Lutherans in Sweden (I'm a Swede and a convert from Lutheranism). It was probably _not_ a problem in Éire or in Brazil. When I read the opening sentence of Gaudium et Spes, considering it as adressed to the Church universal in any decade after the sixties, to when it survived, it makes me GaSp. Please, some Catholic Oxygen! But when it is known that it was partly co-written by Dom Helder Cámara, I could live with him saying things like that locally in Olinda e Recife in the 50's. I suspect it would already have been heavily misleading in Saõ Paolo, the city itself.

[@eduardobroetto4929]

Here in Brazil it was a problem and still being, here people baptize and go to church just as a social thing, or because their parents teached then to go, and most of then are sincretist, a lot of then say "I'm catholic, but i don't agree with that", unhappines this is what happens here.

[@hglundahl]

Was that the case in the Pernambuco of the fifties,@@eduardobroetto4929 ?

[@hglundahl]

5:47 Speaking of new thinkers, what is Dr. Richard DeClue's opinion on the heresies of Ratzinger? Things like what Michael Lofton has called "Middle Inerrancy" ... (Michael Lofton being fine and cosy with Ratzinger and fine and cosy with not upholding YEC positions, btw, kudos to Carlos Martins for upholding Genesis 3, as a historic fact, some clergy over here in Paris don't)? Parts of what I mean by ditching orthodoxy after the council is obviously neglecting the YEC implications of §3 of Dei Verbum. It is far more clearer as a support _for_ YEC, than §11 as a supposed support for those holding Genesis 1 - 11 are "literary form of myth" (sth which doesn't exist in all of literature).

[@orangemanbad]

Personally I like a lot of elements of Vatican 2. But i don’t like how the church no longer requires anything of us laity. I would like to see a blending of Vatican 2 with the TLM. Meet in the middle. And for everyone complaining, the church has the ability to change as it desires so long as we are not changing the message.

[@andy41417]

8:10 Recent advice on godparents and baptism says we are still doing it.

[@MathAdam]

Please tell KZbin that I do NOT wish to "learn the secret to cheap Canadian cannibus" prior to watching a PWA video.

[@Quekksilber]

Right besides the timer for how long the ad still takes, there is this little "i"button. You can click it and block the ad. If you do it on the first ad, you usually also skip the second add and go directly to the video.

[@orlandogarcia7043]

KZbin's algorithm thinks your a liberal because you watch PWA so that's why you're getting ads for sin spinach.

[@joemerino3243]

@@Quekksilber Do you folks not know what adblocking software is?

[@Quekksilber]

@@joemerino3243 I know, but he might be on mobile.

[@joemerino3243]

@@Quekksilber Adblock browser works wonders on Android.

[@YankeeWoodcraft]

"Why Did Vatican 2 Happen?" Because God allowed it.

[@daB055l4mb]

The point about technical advancement seems extraneous. Not sure how the church needs changing because of airplanes or the typewriter.

[@R.I.S.E.]

This is more of an EXCUSE rather than an EXPLANATION.

[@ransomcoates546]

Neither I nor any of my classmates who knew the Baltimore Catechism backwards and forwards were a ‘facade’. Churches and seminaries were packed and charitable Confraternities flourished. Whatever Pope John’s intentions, the Council became a tool of European intellectual Modernism that was disastrous for the life of the Church.

[@Quekksilber]

There are always wheat and tares in the Church. Glory to God that you remained a faithful child of the Church for such a long amount of time! The fact that so many just went along with the world or with the bad implementation of the Council shows, in my opinion, that there was a serious spiritual malady the Church sought to remedy for her faithful. It were also many of those priests from those full seminaries that participated in the pastoral confusion after the Council, right?

[@josephmoya5098]

​@@QuekksilberExactly. If everything was hunky dory and perfect before the council, why did those same priests carry on as they did after the council. The rot was already in the church. No one, except some of those who most strongly supported the council, seemed to really understand that.

[@Pax336]

@@Quekksilber maybe they were worried they to would get the treatment AB Lefebvre got. Did they have a choice.

[@Quekksilber]

@@Pax336 Levebvre's stuff happened a decade later. And I disagree, simply because the FSSP received much support from Rome, nearly all of their founding priests and seminarians coming from the SSPX. And also, not the whole world looked to France all the time. I doubt that it was even reported widely. The confusion was much more widespread, which in my view supports Ratzinger's view of the pre-conciliar Catholicism.

[@Pax336]

@@Quekksilber wouldn't the FSSP have been after the SSPX.

[@glorykimsingsit4092]

I thought the guest was Matt Walsh

[@conovan5081]

Makes one wonder if what we call 'the failures of Vatican II' is not just the facade crashing down.

[@briancollins515]

Bingo

[@kerry8506]

@@tomthx5804Did you watch the video? This comment directly referenced something discussed in the video, so it doesn’t need explanation. Cardinal Ratzinger in the late 50s spoke of a Catholic facade.

[@joelpenley9791]

Or Vat II failed because it didn’t do what Trent did. Trent laid the law down and if you rejected Trent, you were anathema. Vat II produced a bunch of vague teachings which the heretics use to destroy the Church

[@robertajaycart3491]

​@tomthx5804 Look how many religious left the Catholic faith after Vatican II, were these people really committed to the Catholic faith or were they their for selfish reasons.

[@DoctorDewgong]

Maybe the wound opened so we can now start to heal it back?

[@josephesquivel4066]

According to Pius XII's confidante Sister Pascalina Lehnert, his vision for Vatican II was to include a rebuke of the advance of Communism.

[@redbeard5651]

Evolian

[@hglundahl]

2:22 There is a problem when pastoral is valued more than orthodoxy. Step 1 Trent condemns heresy. That was at least _one_ primary purpose. Step 2 Trent gets pastoral (all hunky dory so far) Step 3 Roncalli gets enthusiastic Step 4 some guys who are not as enthusiastic about a fully orthodox pastoral as some might presume Roncalli to be ditch the orthodoxy, partly at the council but even more so afterward, and use the pastoral energy for a purpose opposite that of Trent.

[@wendyfield7708]

Vatican II was a purely pastoral Council. It did not change one iota of doctrine ot dogma. +

[@hglundahl]

Where do I start,@@wendyfield7708 ? First, a dogmatic council does not change doctrina or dogma, it elevates doctrines to the level of dogma (normally held -> must be held). Second, there are other ways to ditch orthodoxy than to dogmatise error. Third, if you plan to use pastoral for the destruction of dogma, one way is to overemphasise pastoral over dogma, and another way is to word things ambiguously. Fourth, change or not change, the first sentence of Gaudium et Spes, if taken about the poor of for instance Germany or Sweden back in 1962 or 1965, is certainly _against_ the deposit of faith. Even as pastoral, it cannot be a real council.

[@hglundahl]

An other man, not sure if I got him right, was perhaps suggesting this was even the case for Brazil's Pernambuco, even back in the 50's. Not sure if that's what he meant, but even if it wasn't, you see the problem. A pastoral letter which may be good by an archbishop of Olinda e Recife in 1950 has no business being recirculated into 1960's Germany, where certain words take another meaning.

[@hglundahl]

6:54 I agree that's not the case. Pius XII in 1950 and 1951, if still a pope at the latter date, scandalised more than any previous pope after Honorius and his non-condemnation of Monotheletism. France or at least the Archdiocese of Paris, presumably with Suffragan bishops, had been fairly solidly in the wrong side of the question, i e how to interpret early chapters of Genesis, since 1920. Some priests availing themselves of what they saw (after Humani Generis) as a liberty to pretend Adam had biological ancestors, took the consequences and worshipped a "God" who was more cruel to "child Adam" then they became to children, when the real God, as per Romans 1, offered them up to _their_ basest passions. Such priests were not defrocked in France, as they should have been (1568 Pope St. Pius V had issued instructions on that) and as they had been, if not contemporaneously, at least within living memory of when French Catholic news outlets were lampooning Abbé Combe. This made their bishops (still actual such) guilty, and such bishops precisely were then gathered and on the spot plotted to tear down orthodoxy.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

7:42 yes indeed, it was well "before the liturgical changes" that Ratzinger saw that the decadence had already set in in 1958, and all the stats fell off a cliff around 1960

[@comnenus9745]

And Vatican II completely failed to address the stats.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

I'd disagree, but rather paraphrase Chesterton and say : It is not that the prescribed development of doctrine has been tried and found wanting but that it was found to be too evolutionary by the conservatives and by the revolutionaries and never tried. @@comnenus9745

[@thefullnessoftruthapostola8328]

The proof that what Ratzinger said in 1958 was correct is that, when the chaos of the 60's and 70's struck the Church, many millions of the Catholics formed in the pre-Vatican II Church left. They did not have the faith, or a sufficient grasp of Catholic truth, that could survive the confusion. Their religious formation was far too poor, in spite of the glowing praise we always hear about the wonderful pre-Vatican II times.

[@cephasrocks8516]

Matt Walsh Doppleganger.

[@gilcostello3316]

Prayer. Yes. That IS the answer. The ONLY answer. Which begs a question: How do we pray all the time? That would be the ONLY ground of absolute stability, even when suffering 24/7 from a deep darkness throughout one’s adult life, what most would crumble into a severely disabling depression from. But a woman did suffer that deep darkness 24/7 who prayed all the time in HOW SHE LIVED HER LIFE, not found solely in uttering words of prayer (what St. Teresa of Lisieux first instructed us on-The Little Way, Prayer in Motion, Living the Prayer): St. Mother Teresa of Calcutta. And then there is the film by Liliana Cavani, Francesco, where she refused to polish St. Francis into an acceptable presence for our pious eyes, but instead reveals step by step how a human being enters into praying all the time, Living a Prayer, a piecemeal process that one should never bother oneself with how long it will take before one arrives where Teresa and Francis arrived at. The only focus required is in doing the Father’s will in every moment in opposition to our own pious, willful ways that help us best in regarding ourselves with high self-esteem, Satan’s Way, where our Lord and our Father’s will both disappear. And Pope Francis understands this better than any Pope during my 76 years, how necessary it is to restore Jesus’ version of what the Church’s Christian Brotherhood actually is, how Jesus intended it, and what was dismantled many hundreds of years ago by the clerical class in its decision to sever the entire Laity from the Church’s discernment process, which called for Laity to be severed from the Christian Brotherhood itself, made evident in saintly Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s concise 1961, 92 page book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, where he makes clear the entire clerical class CHOSE to severe itself from the Laity by declaring the Church’s Eucharistic Christian Brotherhood null and void for Laity, that the Brotherhood would from now on consist only of clerics, Laity denied any part in the Church’s discernment process, where the sinister clerical class as we know it today was first formed (its sinister essence made clear in how this Brotherhood protected its own, those priests in service to Baal, over the protection of the lives of the innocent ones and their parents and extended family members, an evil indifference having its origin in the clerical class declaring Laity invisible). This radical exclusion of Laity from the Church’s Christian Brotherhood immediately killed off the Church’s Royal Priesthood, a priesthood focused on preparing every Christian to Go Out as Jesus insisted, a priesthood made up of the trinitarian preparatory process of Assembly Life, Mystagogy & Spiritual Direction, all cancelled with the death of the Royal Priesthood-for so long now, even clerics have no clue as to its history. But the sinister sickness of the “clerical camaraderie” that holds the clerical class together like spiritual super-glue, sustaining their severedness from Laity, made evident in how EVERY cleric participated in protecting and advancing their brothers who were obviously committed to serving Baal. Yes, those men were more precious to every member of the clerical class than the little children sacrificed on Baal’s Altar. THAT’S the sinister sickness of this clerical camaraderie that fully suppressed the missions of Laity for hundreds of years, preventing them from arriving in sainthood by fulfilling the missions assigned to them. But our Pastors kept conv us Laity to bury our talents in our back yards and wait on our Lord’s return. THAT IS THE TRAGEDY caused by the Cancellation of Lay Missions, what only Pope Francis is addressing. We must be stalwart in not only praying words for our Holy Father, but also LIVING A PRAYER for him by openly supporting his mission, the most vital mission today and for the rest of this millennium. Pope Francis is our Prophetic Pope for this new millennium. Better start paying attention if you love the Church and her Mission. He is in his own way with his Synod on Synodality fighting a lonely battle to rid the Church of the infestation of a sinister clerical camaraderie that insists on keeping Laity locked out. Think about it: if Laity had been allowed to participate in the discernment process at every Parish regarding priests sexually molesting Laity’s children, no way would those Laity have approved the clerical desire to protect those men as a priority over protecting the innocent ones by transferring their brothers, doing whatever it took to protect them and their assigned missions from Baal.

[@francesbernard2445]

The key phrase I am going to remember from your comment is, "-for hundreds of years-" Hundreds of years which the last 2 popes have been working to help turn around too.

[@gilcostello3316]

​@@francesbernard2445 My friend in Christ, I've read countless books by St. John Paul the Great and the saintly Pope Benedict XVI, as well as many of the Church Fathers. I do understand, for example, that Augustine was the centripetal force in Western theology for 800 years (where we see how he used Plato’s mystical penchant to communicate BEYOND the borders of Christian communion in his efforts to evangelize the World). And for the next 800 years God designated Aquinas as that centripetal force, utilizing Aristotle’s ultimate hyper-binge into rationalism, while transcending it, as Augustine transcended Plato’s work. And for the 800 years we are now swallowed up in, God designates Hans Urs von Balthasar as that centripetal force, made obvious when he deconstructed the stifling Kantian Matrix that even the genius mind of Karl Rahner became captive to, resulting in his demise as the greatest Catholic Theologian if the 20th century, who will be mostly forgotten in time because of that imprisonment. Here's some essential readings for those still held captive inside the Kantian Prison Network that was an output from the prison of the Guttenberg Galaxy first explicated by Canada’s greatest Catholic secular philosopher, Marshall McLuhan: Hans Urs von Balthasar’s first book deconstructing that suffocating Kantian Universe is Love Alone is Credible, a book that turns Kant on his head by reversing in importance Kant’s understanding of God (simplified by Dorothy Sayers’ Kantian book, The Mind of the Maker) by writing a book one could describe, in exact contrast to Kant’s work, The Heart of the Maker. Veritatis Splendor, St. John Paul the Great’s correction of, among other heretical leanings the faithful are still held captive to, the satanic theory of a “fundamental option”, together with a false understanding of conscience, what more than anything else dragged multitudes of laity and clerics into becoming frontline agents in Satan’s most successful attack on the Church in all of human history with his Sexual Liberation Army, with Satan appointing Fr. James Martin as his Napolean to win that war by going after Catholic children en masse across the World, what he has been astonishingly successful at, and the Vatican still unanimously honoring, affirming and blessing that satanic mission: www.catholicworldreport.com/2023/08/06/the-truth-is-still-splendid-veritatis-splendor-at-25/ Theology of the Body, St. John Paul the Great’s masterwork, a book if not read will leave you helpless fighting against Satan’s greatest assault against the Church in all her history (just look to Germany to see evidence galore of this). You simply CANNOT even win a skirmish with factions of Legion if you have not studied this book. And it’s telling that pastors, bishops and cardinals across Catholic Christendom still refuse to arm the faithful with this weapon that will defeat Legion on every battlefield. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s prophetic 1961 book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood (the Meaning of The Royal Priesthood) cancelled centuries ago by the entire clerical class, which resulted in a division (radical disunity) between cleric and lay, demonically sustained these many hundreds of years by a sinister clerical camaraderie. How sinister? It successfully gave full license to many demonically captured clerical minds determined to sexually molest our children on Baal’s many altars, and fully protected by the ENTIRE class of clerics for at least 60 years inside a corruption that most EVERY cleric was on board with, taking complex steps to make sure no lay person would ever know they we committed to protecting these priests, ensuring no lay person would ever interrupt this satanic war Satan cheers on with great, never-ending success, throwing Catholic children and their parents into ther cauldron of corruption. And lastly, if anyone wants to understand how Pope Francis analyzes, reasons and speaks, one must first understand that Francis, as is the case with many brilliant Latin American, African and other Third World People, engages with information inside high levels of Right Hemisphere activity. THIS is the singular reason he is so difficult to understand: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnfWaoqFZ6drq6s

[@gilcostello3316]

@@francesbernard2445 Yes - brave saints whose missions have been distorted by satanically infuenced rhetoric.

[@sp1midholm]

Great video, but please say BER-gamo not Ber-GA-mo

[@jamesvanderhoorn1117]

Rectum est pronuntiare 'BERgamum.

[@johneboy910]

Could the fact that he, as is the current pope, was a Freemason have anything to do with revolutionizing the church?

[@sleepystar1638]

Nostra Aetate claims the Jews are not accursed... so when did they convert and start preaching the true Gospel?

[@BrianBenson-rc9mu]

1. What is wrong with the Second Vatican Council? The Second Vatican Council taught doctrines which had been already condemned by the Church, and enacted disciplines which are contrary to the Church's teaching and constant practice. 2. What doctrines did it teach which were already condemned? There are four major errors concerning: (1) the unity of the Church; (2) ecumenism; (3) religious liberty; (4) collegiality. 3. What false doctrine does it teach concerning the unity of the Church? Vatican II teaches heresy concerning the unity of the Church, namely that the Church of Christ is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church, but merely subsists in it. This heretical doctrine is contained principally in Lumen Gentium, and its heretical meaning is confirmed in statements of Paul VI and his successors, particularly in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, in the 1992 Statement concerning Church and Communion, and in the Ecumenical Directory. It is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, contained principally in Satis Cognitum of Pope Leo XIII, Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI, Mystici Corporis of Pope Pius XII, and in the condemnations of the "Branch Theory" made by the Holy Office under Pope Pius IX. 4. What false doctrine does it teach concerning ecumenism? The teaching of Vatican II concerning ecumenism, which states that non-Catholic religions are a "means of salvation," is overtly heretical. This doctrine directly contradicts the teaching of the Church that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, called by Pope Pius IX "a most well-known Catholic dogma." In addition, the ecumenical practices which have resulted from this heretical doctrine are directly contrary to Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI. 5. What false doctrine does it teach concerning religious liberty? The teaching of Vatican II on religious liberty, contained in Dignitatis Humanae, nearly word for word asserts the very doctrine which was condemned by Pope Pius VII in Post Tam Diuturnas, by Pope Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos, by Pope Pius IX in Quanta Cura, and by Pope Leo XIII in Libertas Praestantissimum. The teaching of Vatican II on religious liberty also contradicts the royalty of Jesus Christ in society as expressed in Quas Primas of Pope Pius XI, and the constant attitude and practice of the Church with regard to civil society. 6. What false doctrine does it teach concerning collegiality? The teaching of Vatican II concerning collegiality alters the monarchical constitution of the Catholic Church, with which she was endowed by the Divine Savior. The doctrine of Vatican II, confirmed by the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which states that the subject (the possessor) of the supreme authority of the Church is the college of bishops together with the pope, is contrary to the defined doctrine of the Council of Florence and of Vatican I. 7. What is wrong with the disciplines which have emanated from Vatican II? The 1983 Code of Canon Law contains the heresy of Vatican II concerning the Church, mentioned above. It also permits sacrilege to the Blessed Sacrament, by approving of its reception by non-Catholics, which is a mortal sin, and permits communicatio in sacris (common public worship) with non-Catholics, which is a mortal sin. In addition, the Ecumenical Directory of 1993 permits ecumenical practices which have always been taught by the Church to be mortally sinful. 8. What does all this mean? It means that Vatican II and its subsequent reforms have given us a new religion, a religion which is substantially different from the Roman Catholic Faith founded by Christ. The reformers have substantially altered the three main components of religion: doctrine, worship, and discipline. The result is that the reformers are promoting a religion of ecumenism in place of the Roman Catholic religion, which has always taught that it alone is the one, true Faith, and that all other religions are false. The Vatican II religion teaches doctrines which have been condemned by the Church in the past. It has instituted rites and disciplines which are Protestant in nature. As a result, the religion which Catholics find in their local parishes and schools, although in name Catholic, is a new, non-Catholic religion already condemned by the Catholic Church. 9. Could it be that you are merely giving a bad interpretation to Vatican II? No. The heretical nature of this council is confirmed by: the doctrinal interpretation given to Vatican II by Paul VI and his successors in their decrees, encyclicals, catechisms, etc.; the series of abominations perpetrated by John Paul II against the First Commandment of God, in the form of ecumenical ceremonies which constitute false worship, even to pagan deities in some cases; the alteration of the Sacred Liturgy in such a way that the Catholic Mass has been replaced by a Protestant supper service; the tampering with the matter and form of the sacraments so that many of them, but most notably the Holy Eucharist and Holy Orders, labor under doubt or invalidity; the promulgation of disciplines, especially the 1983 Code of Canon Law and the Ecumenical Directory, which approve of sacrilege against the Holy Eucharist and the Sacrament of Matrimony, and which demonstrate heresies concerning the unity of the Church as their theoretical basis; the scandalous mockery made of the Sacrament of Matrimony by the granting of annulments for spurious reasons, constituting an abandonment of the sacred doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage; the fact that John Paul II is in communion with manifest heretics, has openly declared himself to be in communion with non-Catholic sects, and has recognized an apostolic mission in schismatic and Lutheran bishops, all of which destroys the unity of faith. He has even kissed the Koran, which explicitly denies the Incarnation and the Trinity. He has also publicly prayed that St. John the Baptist protect Islam.

[@jackvogel9777]

Lord God our father, we ask in the name of Your Almighty Son, Jesus Christ that you save and revive your church, and send her forth again to convert the lost, amen.

[@cesarandamandacabrera3918]

I would not be in the church had it not been for VAII. But it has taken many years of formation and catechesis to start appreciating the richness of the Church. My wife and I today love the Church, particularly the mass in most of its liturgical expressions

[@paulmaryonyia9506]

Ok, but have you ever tried the TLM

[@cesarandamandacabrera3918]

I have. Beautiful liturgy, but not the only way to participate in mass.

[@ghostapostle7225]

@@paulmaryonyia9506 Stop pushing this non sensical rad trad schismatic narrative.

[@008i800]

Thank you. God works through you.

[@GavSmith1888]

What are you saying. Missing parts of the bible????

[@Greg-n]

I find it frustrating when commentators claim that the Church "wasn't perfect" prior to V2. I've never heard anyone claim that it was. There is consensus that something needed to happen, but the creation of an alternative liturgy underpinned by the "nouvelle theologie" was a disaster. In hindsight it appears that all of this is providential, that we really don't appreciate something until it is gone, and what we are witnessing under the current pontificate is (hopefully) the final shake of the tree before we have no other option but to cling to our roots. It's no coincidence that our current Pope took the name of Francis after the intrepid Saint of Assisi; the man was a master ascetic. Pope Francis is the Churches hairshirt; we need to wear it with courage and quit bitching.

[@brandtbecker1810]

Amen!!!

[@rivoendre]

Ritual formalism, that's what people are used to, thanks to the Catholic church

[@MrEmperorApples]

Vatican 2 is NO Trent, sir.

[@gainsofglory6414]

Sad to think the results of how V2 was implemented was people know less about the church than eve before, people aren't catechized, the mass has become a facade to match the facade of the people. Though, on a longer timeline, the effect of that effect as we have seen for some years now is younger and newer people are being drawn to the traditional route as the modern route hollows itself out. So maybe in another 30 years people will know more about the church than ever before, be thoroughly catechized, neither the mass nor the laity will be a facade and the pendulum swing will be complete, until next time it swings back the other way.

[@MrCusefan44]

I don’t think V2 had any chance of success, but it was inspired by a recognition of cultural trends it wanted to reverse. The US & Europe were coming out of WWII with incredible prosperity - and the tendency of people any time things are going well is to pat themselves on the back about what a great job they’ve done and convince themselves they don’t need God anymore. I don’t think people knowing less about the Catholic faith is a result of V2 - it’s a result of cultural trends V2 was unable to stop. But that was going to happen regardless. In 2023, the European and US economies are collapsing, and young people are struggling financially. It will be unsurprising to see faith rise and interest in Catholicism grow as the economies get steadily worse over the next two decades.

[@gainsofglory6414]

@@tomthx5804 I didn't say it was because of V2, I said it was "the results of how V2 was implemented". The implementations and interpretations that destroyed the liturgy came about in the 80's. Plenty of secular reasons as well, but the destruction of the liturgy and the complete lack of catechizing all together is what I was talking about. Those are the things the church had direct control over, nothing else. These are things that have lead to significant lack of teaching and knowledge among Catholics, not the general population. Catholics know less about Catholicism, church history, tradition, theology and the catechism from this period than they should have, and that is leading to a pendulum swing of young and new people coming in who have leveraged the internet to know more about all those topics by far than the laity of the previous generation. Was not talking about secular effects, just church decisions and their impact.

[@josephmoya5098]

People were horribly catechized prior to Vatican II. Other than political issues that were strongly preached about, and anti-Protestant concepts which were preached strongly for good reason, your average Catholic knew nothing of the church, her history, her dogmas. If everyone was well catechized and loved the church before Vatican II, it's implementation wouldn't have looked the way it did. It was "implemented" as you say, precisely because the people had so little contact or love for the church and her beauty.

[@slackerjazz]

@@tomthx5804 "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is an informal fallacy, not a formal fallacy, meaning it can't actually condemn argumentation- it can only raise a (relatively trivial) objection. The problem with trying to object this way to all the "After Vatican II..." critiques is that, at this point, there are too many "afters".

[@gainsofglory6414]

@@josephmoya5098 ya, things weren't perfect before hand either, but the liturgy wasn't destroyed at least. The race to the bottom began in the 80's and was necessary in getting the course correction we are seeing today.

[@dominicanyorktalk4980]

Even if Ratzinger wrote that, it seems he had a change of heart by the time he became Pope Benedict XVI based on his actions.

[@Montfortracing]

No he didn't. He still wanted Vatican II implemented. The only change of heart he had was after the council when he left the magazine publication called Concilium and helped found Communio.

[@keananfischer8113]

Hi everyone hope all are doing well. I am a follower of Christ of the protestant persuasion. And I have been listening to a few of these interviews and chats trying to learn from your views. And after this video talking about people who claim to be roman catholic but only kinda culturally, and watching a video a month ago about a seemingly wonder church leader who's church seems to being denied or shut down by higher ups. All I can say is my heart goes out to all of you! Please follow only Christ not a system! Follow the Word of God the Bible, baptisms should be for born again believers who show the fruit of the Spirit! That way it limits the false converts and prophets in the church. Don't anathematize the Gospel. Proclaim it to the people and the world!

[@luke9747]

I hope you are doing well also. I just have 1 question, would Jesus say we should not follow the church? I don't think so at all. He said to Simon "You are rock and on this rock I shall build My CHURCH, and the gates of hell will not overcome it". He then handed all of His authority to Peter and the church. God gave us His church and then promised that He would not let the gates of he'll overcome it. Do you believe that church is the Catholic Church?

[@keananfischer8113]

I do believe that the church is the catholic church. But the catholic church is All believers in Christ. There are both believers and non believers in most denominations; protestant, roman, eastern, etc if you are trusting in Christ alone by faith for your salvation. We all have areas we get things right and wrong. We have to show grace to each other in those areas. As for papal succession this I do not believe. When Jesus makes that statement to Peter it is a play on words. He says you are Peter (petras, small rock) and on this rock (pertros, large rock or boulder) I shall build my church. Petros is the proclamation Peter made which was that Jesus is the messiah, which is the large rock or cornerstone prophesied in the old testament. And when Jesus calls Peter petras, he is stating that he will be part of the foundation that the future church will be built upon. And in revelation it states that the church is built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles. Peter was a leader among equals. We see that Peter himself after the resurrection and pentacost is not infallible. He makes mistakes still and gets rebuked by Jesus and Paul. That's why every church no matter how big or small is supposed to have multiple elders or bishops that love God and the word to meet and hold each other along with the members accountable to the word of God. First will be last, leaders and teachers must be servants. Godbless.

[@wayseeker12]

​@@keananfischer8113Bad arguments. The original conversation was had un Aramaic, not Greek, so there's no play on words. Peter did not make a mistake in what he defended as true, in that instance he behaved unaccordingly with his professed doctrine

[@luke9747]

@keananfischer8113 I must ask, where do you believe that protestantism was in the early church? Or the theology of it. The church that was established by the apostles had no hints of it. All the early church fathers were catholic and taught catholic theology... St Ambrose of Milan was a Bishop. St. Augustine was a bishop. St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote: “See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. […] Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. […] Whatsoever [the bishop] shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 8) “Let all things therefore be done by you with good order in Christ. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons to the presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as He is to the Father.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 9) I want you to read the church father's. There is no semblance of Martin Luther's theology found in them... and I think we agree that God would not allow His church to fail to teach the truth. He did promise that the gates of hell would not overcome it. If the true faith was only discovered by Martin Luther 1500 years later, that'd be a huge failure.... therefore the early church had God's blessing, and that church is undisputedly Catholic... this is very important for your salvation

[@NormanSilv]

Catholic Pagans: 1 Joe Biden; 2 Nancy Pelosi, 3 Jerry Brown, 4. Gavin Newsom. All do as they please.

[@YY-jv4uu]

Just because people say they are catholic, doesn’t mean they act in accordance with Catholicism. I know so many of these

[@Cath-Dad]

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

[@loreman7267]

God is in control. He would rather have a small church of true believers than a large one of people just doing what they always did because that's what you do.

[@Montfortracing]

So true. A lot of Catholics today who yearn for the pre Vatican II days don't realize that despite the high number of priests, religious, baptisms, and Mass attendees, most of the people's faith was weak. And proof of that is the exodus we saw after the Council. If Catholics' faith was "so strong" before the Council, why did so many Catholics leave in the 60s and 70s? Of course some of that exodus was due to the dissidency of certain prelates and clerics abusing Vatican II as an excuse to make changes not called by the Council, but with a strong Catholic faith we would've seen many lay Catholics counter that dissidency, but we didn't.

[@sheri6089]

I don't think Pope John XXIII could have been too concerned with the communist revolution considering his actions re the Third Secret

[@littlerock5256]

John XXIII promised the Russians that VCII would not condemn communism.

[@lynnehood2198]

The Church has never needed renewal. Jesus had it right and the fidelity of his apostles had it right. The world will change, times will change -the truth NEVER does! I left the church for Eastern Orthodoxy because the church is disloyal to tradition. Tradition is not socio-political any more than salvation is. Tradition was the way ( method ) before the scriptures and cannonical texts were even material.

[@erikb3041]

You can feel the pain coming from Matt because the guest is contradicting his rad trad beliefs and won’t say the N.O. is evil.

[@mousakandah5188]

Matt Fradd isn't a rad trad

[@vasjapremerl7270]

you trie to fix the problem but you make it worst. it happens. Important think is to ignolige your mistake.

[@shesintexas1198]

Vatican II came out of the pre-Vatican II Church. Just sayin'.

[@CatholicSamurai]

Yep - the “aggiornamento” leaders that pushed for problematic things were already well-established clergymen by the time V2 convened. So V2 didn’t magically invent anything that wasn’t already being held by high-ranking clergy beforehand. It throws a wrench into the whole “V2 is a departure from the Faith!” narrative once you realize that those same people were already believing and teaching this stuff as priests, theologians, and even bishops prior to the Council.

[@bengoolie5197]

@@CatholicSamurai Vatican II came out of the Protestant Revolt, the Freemasonic Brotherhood, and the Atheistic Communistic "Enlightenment", of which the devil is the architect of all three. Attacks on the Church were certainly underway prior to Vatican II, but Vatican II was the "Great Coming Out Party!"

[@littlerock5256]

Pope St. Pius X warned about the Modernists in the Church. They got the upper hand at VCII.

[@user-be2jq9ry7y]

What are the fruits of Vatican II