What kind of wheels should you build/buy?

[@etiennemuller1]

I have a hybrid bike converted with a mid drive motor. I use it on the road and country laneways, but it produces a lot of torque. Spokes on the standard rear wheel were continuously loosening or breaking. I swapped it out with a 48 spoke wheel designed for tandem bikes. No problems since. The front wheel was never a problem.

[@DavidJLevi]

Excellent video. Very informative. As an aside, I just want to say that your English is outstanding. Lots of non native speakers can be understood but you use idioms like a native speaker 👍.

[@m.talley1660]

Very good content. I have built wheels since the early 1980s. I remember DT spokes breaking at about two years of consistant use. I have always assumed longer life was because of improved metallurgy. Wheel building has been almost a lost art in US bike shops since pre-built wheels have appeared. I really did enjoyed building as a part of working on bikes.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Factory machine built wheels are cheap, not too bad, and often an optimal choice for customers (i.e. I often recommend them over my building wheels - and customers paying for that time). So, in Serbian bike shops it is also normal to not have any highly competent wheel builders.

[@Tag-Traeumer]

36 spokes. 👌 The benefit of hyped new designs is prestige, of course this is a stupid benefit for people who don't care about what makes sense and what works as well as possible.

[@paulflory3532]

Just to add more data to the mix, I have had success at the other end of the spectrum. Since 2016 I have been using Shimano Dura-Ace rim-brake clincher wheels, which have carbon fiber reinforced alloy rims (alloy brake tracks). In the winter, a set of C24's: 21F-24R mm deep, 16 spoke radial front, 20 spoke x2 rear. In the summer, 35mm deep C40's: also 16 spoke radial front, 21 spoke rear (14 laced x2 on the drive side, 7 radial on the non-drive side). Zero problems with flat spots or going out of true. I weigh 170lbs (77kg). Roads around here not super smooth, it's a rural area so bumps and holes in places, which I ride around of course. Maybe 1 flat a year, last was a pinch flat this spring from hitting a pavement edge in a repaving project, tree shadows hid it. Originally I built my own wheels and they didn't stay true like these. These are built at a plant in SE Asia (Malaysia? Thailand?) where all they do is build wheels. So they must get really good at it, unlike folks like me (and even bike shop mechanics) who do other things as well. They may also use tension meters on the spokes? I also wonder if the carbon/alloy rims may be particularly strong. Had a set of all-carbon Lightweight rim-brake wheels which were terrible in the rain, so I avoid rim-brake carbon rim wheels. Typical carbon rim rim-brake wheels cost roughly twice as much as these Dura-Ace wheels and (in these depths) weigh about the same. Back in the day I raced a lot but now I just ride for pleasure and health, generally 25-50 miles several times a week. And a light responsive bike is a pleasure for me. Things haven't been breaking, but if they were I would definitely change.

[@sig_das76]

Just in time! Thank you for videos. Just finished watching your 1hr video about how wheels work. They are so informative and I love your personality too! Explanations are good too!

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Cool. Glad to hear you liked it. :) Relja

[@christopherharmon9336]

I wanted a durable wheelset for my 2011 Cannondale Synapse (quick release), so I had a pair built up locally. I went with Ultegra hubs, DT Swiss double-butted spokes, brass nipples and DT Swiss RR511 rims. The DT Swiss RR511 rims are rated for a total system weight of 130 kg, or 286 lbs. The wheels have 32 spokes front and rear, and are laced in a 3-cross configuration. Yes, they are "heavy," and yes, they look like they were constructed in 1972, but I don't worry about the wheels!

[@BikeGremlinUS]

That's a very good choice of components IMO.

[@event4216]

Sounds very reasonable summary - fewer spokes buy some drag reduction at a cost of wheel durability. You decide what you are after.... As for radial lacing there are endless discussions, I see it mostly on front wheel but frankly, I'd go for snowflake or at least crow's foot lacing to impress spectators and be that person with a cool bike. Some time ago I wanted lighter wheels with less spokes (e.g. not overbuilt, 'cause we all know cycling is all about efficiency) but then I put on bike a bag with spare tire, mini pump, some food, jacket for early morning/late night, two water bottles and suddenly that 200gr. weight savings look not important anymore. Strengthening core and legs has increased my power and cycling longer distances has made me more durable. Instead I spend money on food, water etc. during day rides with old overbuilt 36 spoke wheels which spin just fine, to be fair.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

My thoughts exactly. :) I'd also add that when braking hard, the front wheel carries all the weight - so I see little point in making it weaker. Handlebars, stem, fork and the front wheel are the last places I want to see fail when braking hard, the rear wheel can disintegrate for all I care - LOL. :)

[@event4216]

@@BikeGremlinUS Stem you mention - I shiver when I see people fancying those CNC'd stems looking like mesh underwear not a part holding handlebars to steerer tube. Two strips instead of full faceplate - is it a trendy design or weight saving at wrong place? OK, enough old man's rant)

[@event4216]

While we are at it, can I offer you idea for a video? First, aluminum axles. As I see it, on road bike it's more or less OK, except not sure how wide they can get with ever increasing gear count at cassette. Adding bearings in between to support axle adds complexity at manufacturing and when servicing. Well, road bike for light person on good tarmac could work - but MTB's? I see even BMX hubs with aluminum axle - maybe I'm just too conservative and it's just fine? Another puzzle to me is a bolt-on hub - I realize it works just like QR, compressing axle between dropouts. To me QR for some reason seems safer even if it's actually not - if it fails, wheel is held in place very loosely and supported only by lawyer's jaws (fork). Bolts rarely will work loose at both sides at same time (except case when it wasn't tightened properly from very beginning). Though, QR has all the hardware in it while bolts have threads and axle has internal threads and if they get damaged or wear out by improper tightening, whole axle will be toast (happily, one can resort to using old strong QR). And they use bolt-on design even for BMX hubs instead of old proven nuts - well, what do think about bolt-on design? Me, I'm kind of skeptical, especially when aluminum axle is used (durability, chemical corrosion w/ steel or stainless bolts) but would be nice to know your opinion and thoughts.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Hmmm. Not sure. To avoid misunderstanding: Don't confuse the (over-hyped?) wheel skewers called "thru-axle" with the actual axle that wheel bearings press against. I haven't seen actual axles made of aluminium. Though I should make a video explaining the "thru axle" if nothing else. :) QR is a self-securing mechanism - but if it fails, lawyer lips aren't of any help whatsoever (they are a nonsense, just a hassle that serves to satisfy the "legalese" stuff). Edit - if my comment sounds "ranty", know that the rant is not directed towards you - but the manufacturing, lawyer, and marketing nonsense.

[@event4216]

No worries, rant is our bread and butter) Thru-axle is oversized metal tube which is screwed into other side of frame. You've covered this kind of axle in recent video of over-hyped bike tech, as I recall. Oh, I get what you call by "actual axle" here - no, I mean older type of axles - drilled metal rod, usually with external or internal threads (but it can be smooth when used exclusively with QR). In case of cartridge bearings axle is pressed into inner opening of bearing, in case of loose ball bearings cone and nuts are screwed onto axle. This kind of axle is normally used with QR, or either nuts (external threads) or bolts (internal threads) to secure against frame. I mean this type of axles. So I get "aluminization" of axles in case of high performance use cases. But is it viable for general or heavy use - especially at rear where most of load goes? I'm trying to talk myself into believing materials are stronger yada yada but even then chemical corrosion is a factor to consider. Not even mentioning aluminum nuts to secure wheel in frame (some hubs even sold this way) - few grams dropped and some worries gained.

[@oefzdegoeggl]

I built only two wheelsets in my life, both with high flange hubs for fixed gear. As both I and the wheelsets are still alive, it seems like it did not go too bad 😄 Still I wish I had found your channel earlier, good content 👍🏻

[@zaldam]

I am a little surprised about your numbers. While by no means as experienced as you let me tell you my story. I built myself an errand bike (Cannondale Bad Boy single speed) and wanted a light responsive wheelset at approximately 1,2kg. So my choice was Corima Winium rims (that is the lowest profile they were making at the time), CX Ray Sapim spokes and Extralite lefty front hub and Chris King single speed rear hub. 24 spokes front (2X and radilal laced) and 28 spokes rear (both sides 2X). I had to procure all the ingredients, but building the wheels myself would be science fiction. Eventually I succeeded finding a builder I trusted and my love story could begin. I had been using this bike for everything until just a month ago. Not a single spoke broke and wheels never needed ANY work (except changing tires, of course - tubulars). I weigh 90kg and would sometimes carry more than 10kg of groceries on my back. The bike and the wheelset took everything in its stride for more than a decade. Scorching sun, rain, snow and salted roads, you name it. So it was a big disappointment to learn I can not buy new Corima Winium rims anymore. I noticed a few places where the carbon started to delaminate superficially and I can not trust these wheels any more. But looking back I had a truly fabulous time with them. So 24 spokes front, 28 rear for a heavy person and a decade of faultless use is a really a far cry from what you recommend. Perhaps it is time to rethink? Greetings from Ljubljana!

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Hi neighbour, :) Glad your wheels have served you well (and a good idea to replace when you noticed delamination). In terms of rethinking the numbers, I'll use an analogy to explain my point of view: I haven't had any automobile accidents requiring a seat belt, but I wouldn't rething fastening it. Likewise, in terms of robustness, durability, reliability, and even budget, I'd still recommend what I've recommended in this video.

[@davdpl1478]

Thanks for great detailed video! About wheel comfort, I once bought an aluminum frame bike that came with radial spoked wheels, that was bone-jarringly stiff to ride on. Then I bought a set of Spinergy wheels, with PBO spokes. Its a flexible spoke that doesn't compress. Comfortable to ride, it feels like riding on underinflated tires! They stay true a long time, and fortunately I haven't needed to replace a spoke yet, because I'm not sure they still sell them!

[@kris8165]

I have Campagnolo Zonda older pair of wheels,the wheelset is from the year 2012! Still going beautifully on my SS/tracklocross road bike! Radial front and back, with the flattened steel aero spokes(21 spoke at the rear) it's a FANTASTIC wheelset! I bought it used some years ago,and that wheelset never needed truing! Probably the stiffest road wheelset I ever owned! Seriously stiff wheels! And that Campy hub just spins endlessly and the sound is beautiful! I also ride the same bike on the gravel roads,and no problems so far... Greetings from Kris 😎

[@BikeGremlinUS]

I've had a Yugo serve me for 20 years, but I still wouldn't call it a well-designed, well-built reliable vehicle. :)

[@kris8165]

@@BikeGremlinUS Hahaha Yeah 👍😅

[@andrewbozhozr]

​@@BikeGremlinUS calling it a vehicle is enough, because it isn't automobile. 😂

[@mtbboy1993]

32 spokes seems to be the norm. Even on 29er enduro wheels. But yes more spiked is better. So far no issues with 32 spokes. Some hub and rim brands offer 36, but not all do. But with decent spokes an d nipples snapping spokes and nipples is not an issue for me. But I'm curious why 36 is rare. More common on low end older 26er wheels than on modern enduro wheels.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Fewer spokes sells easier (lighter, aero etc). Consumers are lead to believe it is always better (more high-end). I think that plays a part. Also, 32 is “strong enough” for most purposes (withs strong rims snd good spokes). I’ve even seen e-bike rear wheels with 32 spokes. And many folks firmly believe that 36 spokes is enough for the rear wheel of a tandem bike.

[@davidbee9563]

Thank you for the simple explanation. I have not used butted spokes but may do so for the next set of wheels. I am a heavy rider(100kg +) so the number of spokes concerns me. I have found using 32 with straight spokes works well for commuting or gravel bikes. For road or mixed 28/32 seems to work well with more spokes where needed on the rear. This is with rim brakes not with disc that have spokes wear and break from torque at the rim when slowing. Using wider tires is factor as well. I often use smaller wheels and wider tires for comfort and durability. 650x42 for road and 650x48 or 55 for gravel or winter riding. The larger volume tires seem to reduce the impact on the wheels. For road 700x 32 to 35 is efficient and comfortable. I would never go back to 30 years ago running 25c tires at 100psi. 32c tires at 50psi is so much better. The problem with newer bikes is that the wheel strength is set for an light person of a given size. I am 185cm so ride a large frame(58 to 60) but it is often built not for 120kg of bike and rider but more like 90kg.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Note that rim brakes actually put more stress on the spokes (compared to disc brakes). The difference is that disc brakes transfer torque (so radial lacing is an extra bad idea with discs), but rim brakes put more tension increase/decrase on a particular spoke at a given time (while with discs all the spokes are sharing the braking torque). I've discussed and explained that in the "Science behind the spokes" video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rITHnGN4ZcaVm6csi=P09jPG6idVhGlj88&t=2199

[@christopherharmon9336]

As a heavier rider myself, I'm no fan of low spoke count wheels. My Synapse (an aluminum model) came with inexpensive wheels with 20 spokes rear, and 16 spokes in the front. While braking hard on one of the local, long downhill descents, I could feel the axle floating fore and after in the wheel. A bit scary. Personally, I wish manufacturers supplied their bikes with a wheelset which focused on durability, especially at the lower price points.

[@davidbee9563]

@@christopherharmon9336 Agreed. I wonder at the wisdom of speccing a mid priced gravel bike with 24 spokes, radial in front and cross 3 in the back. Surly usually includes 32 spoked wheels in most of their builds.

[@martinprice1738]

Thanks

[@KikorPlaysHobbies]

Your English is excellent...btw all great videos you have 😊😊😊

[@patrickparisienne1917]

Very informative video! Great work!

[@SimonHBS]

Thanks for another great video! What is your opinion on straight pull vs. J-bend spokes/hubs?

[@BikeGremlinUS]

J-bend spokes are a lot easier and cheaper to source in my experience. The straight-pull spokes are more exotic so to speak, and require a matching (exotic) hub, without offering any real advantage. Relja

[@dashofawesome64]

You should do a video about touching spokes. Park tools said there is no need for it. But i hear from a lot of other people that it is a must.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

Touching spokes? Not sure what that means (English is not my native though).

[@dashofawesome64]

@@BikeGremlinUS instead of over over under. It's over over over.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

You mean should you interlace spokes before going to the rim? I think it's generally a good idea, because it reduces the amount of lost tension when spokes are transferring torque (when pedalling, or when braking with disc brakes). Can you get away without it? Probably. Stiff rims and high quality spokes let you get away with a lot of stuff. Should you do it? Why make your wheels less durable?

[@PaulC.494]

36 spokes and 3x pattern is generally the best, bicycle spokes have become unnecessarily complicated.

[@mtbboy1993]

I wasn't impressed with Dt Swiss Brass, I used their T handle tool to install them and one rounded off, but managed to finish the nipples swap with a regular spoke wrench. But I've had great experience with Sapim. The Alu Dt Swiss rounded off fast and corroded, cracked. So far my top choice is Sapim Brass. But I've not tried everything yet.

[@darek795]

I have two cheap 26' wheels - probably made in China or made from Chinese parts - wheels costed about 20 euro each and spokes don't brake. I'm using them since a year. But spokes look a little thick - probably they are a little thicker and heaviier than branded spokes.

[@chrisregister8021]

I had a hard time keeping track of my fingers and toes snd the spokes at the same time so I can't tell you. 😢

[@nikzel]

What about alloy rims? I'm looking for 20 inch folding bike commuter. The Chinese seller offers spokes or alloy wheels for the same price.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

For any comments, questions, or advice, please use the BikeGremlin forum on the web-address: bikegremlin.net Relja Novović

[@mikefoster3901]

Nothing wrong with my 36 spoked wheels on Mavic Open Pro rims and Campy Record hubs I'm old school like you 😂😅😊

[@fishcyclr]

Nice war story, every industry has their own version of the Chinese spokes. "This is the exact way it works, everything else will make it break."

[@bakerk5030]

thoughts on carbon spokes?

[@BikeGremlinUS]

A fad - IMO.

[@bakerk5030]

@@BikeGremlinUS are they safe? Do they go in the category of strongly built spoke that will last despite a bad wheel build?

[@BikeGremlinUS]

That's a very good question. Appologies for the rather dismissive original answer. I wrote a forum post discussing this: www.bikegremlin.net/threads/carbon-fiber-spokes-yay-or-nay.331/ Relja

[@bakerk5030]

@@BikeGremlinUS Thank you for the detailed response!

[@bakerk5030]

@@BikeGremlinUS I hear that carbon rims actually deflect more laterally than alloy rims when spoke tensions are weak, does that mean carbon spokes are necessary for carbon rims if you want to minimize lateral deflection? I'm assuming stiffer spokes means they hold more tension.

[@SurpriseMeJT]

I only build my wheels with DT Swiss or Sapim spokes. The only time I've broken spokes is when I used DT Revolution 14-17-14 on both sides of a rear 26" MTB wheel for racing purposes. The spokes broke at the j-bend on the drive side. Now I only use at least 14-15-14 butted on the rear drive side 3x 32 hole. I agree that low spoke count wheels are very sub-optimal for all the reasons you mentioned.

[@kalijasin]

“What kind of wheel should you buy?” One that goes around and is true. Duh?

[@romanmentor9238]

With 36 spokes I never had an issue with spokes breaking,but cracked 3 rims.Aluminium rims have a limited lifetime.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

LOL. :) Mavic (to name one company) has managed to make their rims less durable, despite all the alleged innovation and "R&D." It's getting more and more difficult to find strong, reasonably designed rims. Fortunately, high-quality spokes, nipples, and hubs do exist (even though they are not readily available in my country).

[@2L40K]

Both - yes, light aluminum rims have limited lifespan, - and no, there are heavier rims, and if you get one you will start breaking spokes. And here I do not know what to do...

[@2L40K]

@@BikeGremlinUS How about Ryde Andra and Ryde Sputnik?

[@SuperOlds88]

Why do you think the Chinese spokes failed so quickly? poor material that they were manufactured from, poor manufacturing process. Seems like a spoke would be made approximately like a nail or screw, a coil of material that gets cut into lengths, die that the bend or j-bend and the head is formed, and the threading. Maybe I am completely wrong on that process. On a side note, my brother who had a very long career in tool and die was hired by a Chinese manufacturing firm that produced saw chain, you know for chainsaws. Making the chain is quite technical, anyway the Chinese made an inferior chain that had a part of the chain that would fail after a short time of use, my brother discovered that their manufacturing process and how they made their progressive die didn't form the part correctly, so it would fail. My brother taught them how to make the die, progressive die so it made superior parts. That company is very successful now. Maybe their is a similar problem with the spokes, someone with your engineering and diagnostic skills could probably have a good idea what is wrong.

[@BikeGremlinUS]

A good question that deserves a separate video/article.