What Makes an Overlander 'EXOTIC?' @4xoverland

[@promenteryrobbins]

Did you hear about Ineos supporting one owner who was overlanding through Kazakhstan with his Grenadier that had a failed front prop-shaft joint? The part was flown to the Grenadier by helicopter and fitted by two Ineos mechanics in-situ. It took just over 2 hours after he’d contacted Ineos via satfone. Exceptional warranty service, great for brand reputation and confidence when travelling remotely. I think you need to get one Andrew, build it out and take it on some adventures in Oz. Buy the cheaper two-seat commercial variant, with the rough-pack to maximise off-road capability while keeping a check on the cost / unnecessary luxury features..

[@promenteryrobbins]

….and maybe fit the Alu-cab roof now that it’s been designed….

[@stevegreen101]

Got a link for that story?

[@4xoverland]

I seriously considered getting a Grenadier and building it, did an on-line build and everything. But, because Ineos AU treated me badly by not following up on a single promise or even providing one for a review, and by contrast the Bus4x4 guys were genuinely helpful and enthusiastic, I went the van route instead. Its a proper 4x4 and could make an outstanding overlander. A huge challenge for me. And I think even more interesting.

[@mattC5991]

@@4xoverland Wahhh wahh give me a free car for review wahhh.

[@wewemjinga]

@4xoverland dude I think you are just unhappy that ineos didn't pay you any attention. Your whole argument in regards to Ineos does not take into account legislation in Europe, USA and Australia that have governed pretty much the whole design process of the IG. Ineos does not have the luxury to manufacture different models for different markets. Give credit where it is due. Ineos has delivered a production vehicle within 6yrs. No panel gaps, no dodgy paint. No falling interior trim. It is the only ICE powered start up in decades. There is a reason and it is because it is extremely hard and complex to manufacture an ice powered vehicle. You hardly do any work on yourself in your cars, instead you just sub them out and yet you keep on shouting that they are your builds. Go ask your favourite company Toyota to give you a the new 250 Prado for review. Good luck with that

[@jamesphillips2558]

You might be far from the main road on Australia's Canning Stock Route, but in Southern Africa, help is never too far away. While it’s understandable to prefer a vehicle stripped of modern features that can fail and leave you in limp mode, you’d have to venture much deeper into Africa for this to become a real concern. Having driven from London to Cape Town via West and Central Africa, I can say with confidence: once you’ve made it through the Congo, you’ll never truly be stranded.

[@nickgood8166]

Utter ignorant tosh!

[@yb6449]

Andrew, I rkn you'll get one (Grenadier) eventually. I can sense it. It'd be the best thing in the world to watch you pick it to pieces, make it to your tastes... and tell the world about it!

[@BubblesTheCat1]

That floor pan on the RHD version is a big no no...

[@Bartraeger]

Here in Germany Ineos are selling about as many Grenadiers as Lamborghini sell sports cars, so yes my Trialmaster feels very exotic, and I dont have a problem with that. BTW we have more BMW engineers around here than I can wave a big stick at, so no worries on that front! Horses for courses.

[@michaelnorwood3037]

' Remote Germany' is a different kettle of fish to remote Australis or remote Africa my friend! Andrew is correct in describing the Ineos Grenadier as an exotic. Parts availability in Europe no worries in Oz or Africa certainly a worry.

[@Bartraeger]

@ Germany has become more like Africa recently, but joking aside, I am familiar with those differences. What I don’t really understand is the constant harping that a brand new car company doesn’t have quite the maturity in terms of network that a player like Toyota does, who have been on the market for decades. In some ways a banal observation isn’t it?

[@arijanlesicar]

Couldnt agree more. I had 2011 2.4 and 2014 2.2 Defender 110, sold them and got myself 300tdi. Always had that little voice in the back of my head sayin, what if this thing breaks down. I know every nut and bolt on a 300tdi, no matter what happens I would be able to determine what issue is. Common sense would choose Land Cruiser HZJ, but heart will always go Defender.

[@michaelmacdonald7342]

I agree, I think it is an exotic, I live in Nova Scotia Canada, there are only two dealerships in Canada and the nearest one is in Toronto over 1800km away. so depending on where you live or are exploring, the vehicle may be exotic. A Hilux would be an exotic in Canada, but a Tacoma would be an exotic in Australia. I have a Jeep JT Rubicon, it would be an exotic in Affric, so an old Defender 110 may be a better choice, but that old Defender 110 would be considered an exotic in Canada now. I do agree about the Ineos being an exotic with this definition as we have to ask if dealership support is necessary for you. I would never take a stock vehicle on a truly remote and hard trip - every vehicle has some weak points that the aftermarket community has a fix for, so I would only take something that I have built and can repair myself. Great video.

[@Treetopflyer777]

Great points. Completely agree. Exotic depends on where you are. Quite honestly, a troopy or 70 series would be ultra exotic here in Canada (I’m in Canada too) Old style Defender 1000% is. Btw have you seen their prices here? My 4runner would be exotic in ZA or Oz. If it were t for the exotic price tag, I might entertain an ineos but thankfully they’ve priced me out. Lol Great discussion

[@nickgood8166]

I co-founded the Land Cruiser Club of Southern Africa 22 yrs back. The initial cohort of members were 'refugees' from the Mitsubishi Colt 4x4 Club (L200). I had a petrol 3 litre Colt, twin-cab pick-up, bought new in 1999, my first 4x4. In my 2 years of ownership, touring around Southern Africa, learning the off-roading game, I learned that this game is a Toyota game. I have a many stories as to how I learnt this the hard way. I sold my Colt, bought a 2 yr old Land Cruiser 4.5 petrol 105 series, kitted her out and started the Land Cruiser Club of Southern Africa, with a fellow Colt L200 'refugee'. Again, there are many tales inside this precis. I could write books. What Andrew says here is spot on. I figured this out in 2002. It's not changed. Listen! And no, I have didly squat fiduciary interest in Toyota, or 4x4ing. I have always been an amature in this space.y

[@darrylrawlings2359]

In the United States and Canada your Landcruiser was never sold…. I would venture to say there are already more Grenadier’s in North America than 70 series LandCruiser. As per the price, a well sorted LandRover 110 or 70 series Landcruiser sell for > $80K+ the price of a new Grenadier. I have owned over the decades several Toyotas and LandRovers, over landed from Canada to Mexico, gone weeks without seeing pavement. For the options available in North America the Grenadier is the clear choice, new or used. Yes I would prefer a vehicle with no computer, but there is no world where I would be more comfortable taking a 25 year old 70 series or equivalent vehicle over the Grenadier. Love your content, but I suggest your experience is in Australia and Africa. North America, Central and South America have some different needs and definitely a different support system for parts. Thanks for your great content, keep up the good work.

[@ulrichkristensen4087]

Ill bet a hardboiled Guiness, that most of those Ineos are not on the trails, more like gravel paths or by roads. It is the same, i would never buy a overland Van,most of these today are sprinters, while being well build, the service is expensive, anything goes on a sprinter it is expensive. If i want something over 3500Kg, it would be a Fiat daily 4x4, those things are build to last and are cheap at service. If i had the money though, i would buy the Orange Works G wagon on portal axels, but that is a car of 800.000 euros 😊

[@Pandora882]

Andrew if you build a car any car in Europe your hands are tied by EU legislation just look at the myriad of so called safety systems that are retired along with the emmisions etc etc we are not allowed to build a simple car anymore. PS loving my grenadier for the last20 months even if it’s slightly exotic.

[@4xoverland]

Grenadier is not exotic in Europe if you are to understand my meaning of the word.

[@wewemjinga]

​@4xoverland other then BMW engines which other company would have supplied Ineos with engines that would meet your Toyota criteria of service and parts availability? Keeping in mind that new Toyota engine like the V6 in the LC300 is also suffering from delay in parts availability

[@Pandora882]

Thank you for engaging Andrew. I fully understand the exotic label and sympathise with you on the over complication of modern vehicles.. nobody wants stop start lane change or any of the other exotic things that legislation have forced upon us. Also the engines are so complicated purely because of emission standards give me a simple Land Rover any day I guess I’ll just put up with my grenadier.

[@PeteFromOZ]

A Holden V8 from the last model SS commodore would have been a brilliant fit for the Aussie grenadier.

[@Queensizemusic]

One thing that would make the Grenadier just a wee less “exotic” - maybe - is this particular BMW engine also endured Toyota’s grueling testing before being used on their new Celicas (meaning, maybe parts are more available than we believe? I doubt those models were sold in Africa though, so, certainly, still an exotic by Andrew’s definition.

[@Peter79123]

💯% right in every point, Sir ASPW 🤠👍 Huge respect (no spare parts available=no rolling) so easy is that worldwide 🌐

[@Wofinet]

As a old defender owner I agree with all this. One additional consideration - ineos before the first car was delivered increased prices 3 or 4 times. So now they aren’t competitively priced and can’t sell them in anywhere close to the volumes that is needed to develop a support network. If they have stuck to the launch pricing they would have sold in volume and this would have helped the chances of support in remote locations. Oh well.

[@afdude2220]

Happy Grenadier owner here in America! Thanks for the content.

[@youtybebw]

You are far too critical of the Grenadier. It is double the the price they predicted when first envisaged but its not excessive if when compared with the compilation with similarly specifications. The amount of electronics is dictated by our wonderful governments and their regulations. The engine has followed the Toyota doctrine of gradual improvements over 20 years now, and very tunable 300 to 500 hp. They are built very strong and are on a par if not better than anything built today. I would not be surprised if 80% of them will still be on the road in another 20 years.

[@globalgregors]

Crossing continents in our Gren, couldn’t be happier. Ineos have been great.

[@stevegreen101]

It what sense have Ineos been great?

[@globalgregors]

They’ve provided direct lines of communication that bridge the agent network while operating in remote areas and outside one’s delivery market. This has included sustainment advice, troubleshooting and prearrangement of repair parts and consumables. We have strived to engage the agent network however this has not been a prerequisite of their support. Beyond this practical aspect they’ve also simply been receptive and communicative. At the dealer level, we’ve not had a bad experience and we’ve been to eight so far. Ranging from a 10 minute stop for an error code reset through to routine services and break-fix. All have demonstrated a high degree of professionalism, a few have gone well above and beyond.

[@michaelwittmann2644]

Toyota was once in the same place as the Ineos Grenadier. Like Toyota, Ineos will eventually have an extensive dealer network: people who believe in and invest in the Ineos dream will ensure this.

[@motolab.EuropeanMotorcycles]

It is not the dealer network, it is the availability of parts in the local workshop what counts for overlanding.. i believe…. In all the remote places around the world from asia to africa and the south america’s i have visited, the majority of 4x4 was toyota… toyota and toyota, the landrovers were a odd minority…. So if my life depended on a 4x4 i know what i choose : as old school. toyota And i myself love Land Rovers… and i own land rovers… (for use in europe, so my life doesn’t depend on them tbh)

[@michaelwittmann2644]

​@@motolab.EuropeanMotorcycles But a more extensive dealer network would equate to more local workshop numbers carrying spare parts. The two are inexorably linked.

[@motolab.EuropeanMotorcycles]

@ no, they are not… per definition.. ….. for instance: a wheel bearing (most of them) can be bought easily via a bearing supplier… and if the majority of motors (cars) is toyota AND more models than one of that brand uses the same part, the changes that a local workshop have them on stock is far more likely.. same for seals, o-rings, injectors valve caps and plates, etc. Etc.. Ineos is a one model brand… as is mercedes regarding their serious 4x4 range.. but maybe you are right and in about 20 years they have expensive ineosses in every part of the world… and every mining company, tribe, world help organisation etc. Will drive ineos. (But i doubt it tbh)

[@mikefoster7085]

Ive had no issues getting parts for my Grenadier, my Landcruiser was a different story, 4 week wait for a brake line in remote Western Australia. Tell me again about Toyota's network of readily available spares?

[@stevegreen101]

​@@mikefoster7085what parts have you needed for a brand new vehicle?

[@chris38663]

Good discussion. Mission is everything. Here in North America, the 70 series is an exotic. Sure, unlikely to fail, but the nearest spare parts are in Australia. We drive subpar Toyotas like my Tacoma because here, that is the best non-exotic that we can buy (yes, Jeep Gladiator too now).

[@freeline3601]

I agree with keeping as many older 4x4s alive precisely due to their simplicity and ease of maintenance.

[@paulharrison8114]

I’m happy with my Defender

[@michaelnorwood3037]

G'day Andrew I have been following your videos for a while now and enjoy your take on things. As a Nissan Patrol, 3L CRD 2008 vintage, driver (not your favourite vehicle ) I have been remote outback in many parts of Oz and have been happy that the ecu has not let me down or other exotic parts. Your use of the term EXOTIC seems to challenge many of your commentators appreciation of the English language even though you fully explained your usage of the term. Perhaps 'EXOTIC AND SCARCE' may help them understand your point of view.🤔 I agree fully with you that in remote Oz and Africa parts for 'SCARCE' vehicles are very hard to source. Patrols and Land Cruisers in oz are abundant. I would be interested in a Grenadier but only when they have been around a bit longer with reliable back up services available. Good video, I enjoyed it!👍

[@JohnRolyAU]

We needed an alternator of a 120 Prado in June on the way to Alice, same alternator fits 150 Prado, 75 series and others, no Toyota dealer carries stock, We ended up getting someone to wait a day in Port Augusta for one to be flown in, Nothing available in Melbourne, Alice or anywhere else people were flying to Alice from for the race team who were all assembling in Alice for Finke, In the end I changed my plans and drove with the 120 To Alice as backup. Long Story short, NO Dealers stock an alternator for most of the Toyota Diesels.

[@DaneMedia]

Another Toyota sponsorship

[@RkOnMenArmy]

I own a Grenadier myself, and have little to no experience at all but I have to say-it’s a brilliant car and enjoy it everyday. Still lots to learn but I can’t wait to explore WA with it. That said, I do share your concern about the availability of spare parts and the related challenges. I’d love to see you get a Grenadier, build it out, and put it to the test. I think a lot of people including myself could learn from your experience and that journey.

[@mikefoster7085]

I can tell you there is no shortage of spares locally in WA, take this form an owner, be it a screen, filter, or any other component.

[@VolimMore-u7j]

I have a W460 250D. W461 is continuation of that series from around 1992. In the same time W463 emerged. I remember once my mechanic ordered some parts to replace worn out ones in steering system. Ones that were delivered did not fit. Their diameter was narrower. Than we found out they were for W463. Mine allso has factory coil springs marked in white (heavy duty). There is also red and green mark. Car battery is under the bonnet and in W463 under the rear seat. Mine has manual 4WD ( when engaged max speed is cca 80km/h), 4WD low range, front and rear differential locks (manual, hydraulic). No central diff. The car can go almost anywhere. In 20 years of ownership has never left me stranded.

[@CrapToCream]

I used to love my Land Rovers, models many and varied, RRS 3.6TDV8 did an alternator in Denham, mechanic there oened the bonnet, told me if he couldn't see it he wasn't interested, bonnet was shut shortly afterwards. Rangie had to be flat bedded back to Perth and it took me three days on and off to fit a new alternator I had to wait a week for. Now I drive a 79 series Land Cruiser TDV8 dual cab, feel a whole lot more comfortable when travelling now, extremely reliable, oh what a feeling.............

[@sf017s4]

Probably your most compelling argument yet. I think you're more influential than most in this arena. Well said and good work mate.

[@teamsaurer]

- I'm not a G Waggon Fan Boy but the Gs on the Canning were driven by changing Journalists and the speed was quite fast and almost like a race. For the heavy loaden 463 with roof tent it was nonsense to take no proper tire dimensions. I'm not sure but I'm afraid that 16" wheels where not possible on these 463s. The 461 on this trip was driven by Mr. Erwin Wronisch (R.I.P. :-() from Graz. He was one of the most experienced G Offraod drivers in the world as he was for decades one of the test drivers in the G factory in Graz and did a lot of drivers instructions for civilian and military G drivers all over the world too. (as long as I have something to say on the Schöckl Test track - we will drive 16" wheels on demonstrations .." )That where his words some years ago. - the main reason that Ineos did not send a Grenadier with you on the "Friends on the Canning" was, that you highlighted the trip as a test if the Range Rover Classic could still do it. Ineos was aware that the RR was the star on this trip and not the other cars and even not the Grenadier. That was the reason.

[@stevegreen101]

Dirk Heilman, when CEO of Ineos Automotive promised to make a trip along the Canning in a Grenadier. Shame he never got to do it before moving on.😢

[@projectwildearth]

The Canning Stock would be a good test. Is anyone planning on doing it in a Grenadier in the near future do we know of? We’d be up for if if we were coming to Aus but we just don’t have the spondoolies to make it that far South on our trip and do Aus and NZ at the moment unfortunately.

[@mikefoster7085]

Some have done most of it this year, but because of the enduring wet northern end it wasn't completed. There are some planning this next year.

[@projectwildearth]

@ Thanks for the reply Mike, it’d be interesting to watch. I’ve no doubt it’ll be fine. 👍

[@mikefoster7085]

@@projectwildearth they will be, plenty here in Western Australia have taken them on punishing tracks without issue.

[@projectwildearth]

@@mikefoster7085 We've taken ours all through Europe, the Balkans, Turkey and Central Asia and we're still going strong. 💪

[@gumundurpetur9114]

Good show like always. Now Andrew, you've made your point with the Inios similarly to the skinny tall tires. But now you are in the position to promote changes and like you've said so many times that the safe options are as follows; common cars and common tires. You've made your point and now we want to see you go out and test what you belive are good options even if they are not as common. F.x. the Inios, tall-skinny tires and so on. Keep up the good work!

[@gumundurpetur9114]

You say it best yourself; "It's an excotic and that is my challange with it" Just like the Range Rover, it was a challange because it was so old and you made the best show because it was a challange.

[@RustyTreeMan]

Great hearing your thoughts again. If I recall only the older totally standard G wagon did complete the Canning Stock Route without failure, no mods and probably 15 or 16 inch wheels! Agree with your comments but that's the way of the world, all new diesels are common rail with ECU's regulating a precise amount fuel for greater performance than the old diesels. Mine too, if it breaks down in the outback I'm in trouble. The old diesels can't meet the emission standards which is why Ineos had to go down the common rail ECU route, they didn't want to but simply had to for EU compliance.

[@timwhite3250]

If you want to build a new car saleable in world markets meeting the most stringent of emissions and noise etc, it is impossible to build a simple car. In particular true with diesels and the complexity of meeting diesel emissions targets with a plethora of control systems. Going into the outback do you take a vehicle that is more likely to break down based on component age or do you take a new vehicle that has less miles under the wheels and is less likely to actually stop due to that even if it goes to limp home strategy. It’s an interesting problem. There is I’m sure always examples of both having people stranded.

[@Fr99763]

Dear Andrew, you are a true exotic ! Cheers

[@robert_unterdeck]

"I have ice cold beers... and one of them is in my hands" 😇🤙👍

[@MMOverlandAdventures]

I have my camp setup in 20 seconds Andrew and 2 awnings. Parts available WORLDWIDE. Plus I can go 99% of the places your Landcruiser will go.

[@andrewjones-productions]

I agree, more and more of even the stalwarts of overlanding suitable vehicles are becoming more exotic. The newest version of the Land Cruiser 70 series has also taken a big step (comparatively speaking) in becoming exotic. The new Defender took an even bigger step from its predecessor, but its predecessor had also become more exotic in its final versions. You are right Andrew. To avoid it is to buy an older vehicle. There is however a downside to that. In places like Japan, you will be penalised with higher road tax and insurance as an older vehicle will lack all of the safety features (e.g., collision avoidance amongst others) , making the vehicle very expensive to own. Couple that with the cost of building up a stock vehicle to be a good overlanding vehicle and suddenly the gap between those who want to do it but can't afford it and people that can do it starts to widen. to such a degree that one is forced into a situation where you buy a new more exotic vehicle or give up entirely. The former choice being the softer one and the latter very sad. The less people that can take the less beaten path and explore this wonderful planet, the less people there will be that understand it and experience feeling its rhythm. I find that thought immensely depressing.

[@Indecisive7337]

Andrew, I enjoyed this video you’ve made, it’s an eye opener about choosing the correct vehicle for the job rather than simply wanting to use something you fancy! Years ago I whilst planning an African trip I couldn’t make up my mind whether to go Unimog 1300L of a Pinzgauer 6x6! Both ex mod and both more or less the same price! The trip got cancelled so I never had to decide :-(

[@taurota1554]

Thanks for sharing and taking us along

[@Innov8cnc]

Always love the intro to your videos.

[@kisbushcraftdownunder]

Having a popular vehicle with a long history is a big plus for remote travel you are more likely to find spare parts and local mechanics who are familiar with fixing it. On a trip to the far north of Western Australia our group picked up a bad load of Diesel for me its wasn't a huge drama my 70 series had a drain plug in the tank and I had no problems getting filters. One of the other cars we had to drop the tank and we could not get a spare filter locally it took a week to get a some sent to us.

[@robpinter5431]

Rhonny Dahl has done a 10,000km review of the Grenadeer and yes it did have short comings, fuel range and the TC electronics resetting when the ignition is switched back on, but is a capable 4x4. We need a Defender 110 with a reliable engine and gearbox.....minimal electronics.....

[@alanedwards6491]

How about the Pinzgauer? 4x4 or 6x6?

[@4xoverland]

Exotic everywhere one would want to use it. Doesn't matter.

[@daniel-ino]

Wouldn't it be cool to get one of the Australian Army MB G classes with twin rear axles?

[@craigtomkinson2837]

Lovely ep , but spot on

[@andrewhurstcars]

Hi Andrew, your face shots are too cropped in. Back out a bit so your head isn’t cropped in half.

[@4xoverland]

will do.

[@MMOverlandAdventures]

Great points Andrew.

[@michaelnugara1]

Agreed 💯 . I'm tipping if you tried again you might be lucky.

[@airbats801]

They needed to get their price point down about 50k imo. 100k cars are a luxury item for dinks. I've seen a couple stock ones driving around oregon. tacoma and 4 runners kinda rule the main new vehicle overlander here. It's a much more affordable platform that most people can afford. I would have liked to see them build something like the new jimny on the cheap and basic. Hell, I'd love to get my hands on one, but as usual we can't even get those state side.

[@mikefoster7085]

@@airbats801 build quality comes at a price, the US has been fed cheap vehicles by way of government subsidies for years.

[@simonhjc]

Absolutely spot on. In fleet its “whole of life costs” which include the ability to have unform, readily available parts, and reliability and function. This is why the 2.8 has entered the 70 series range. I can tell you a major mining company in WA has a large workshop with V8 toyota motors on pallets as well as front end to end diffs because they could get long replacement v8s from toyota and as such comparing the 2.8 they were getting better workshop results from the 2.8. Eg 4 injectors not eight. That uniformity allows easy access and for overlanders the ability (as you said), to get a part in a town. As far as warranties go- toyota are no better than any other brand re a failure. They will duck and weave, delay and argue (theres a youbtube story of a prado spinning a besring and it took the owners 5? Months before toyota admitted and replaced the motor) Toyota never woukd admit that the clutches in the 70 v8s were a problem but “hey presto” the new manual 2.8 now comes with a heavy duty clutch. So whilst parts are available, dont think Toyota will take care of you. They wont.

[@paulfern9063]

Sour grapes, lots of 4x4 KZbin content creators were loaned a Grenadier but for whatever reason you weren’t. There’s nothing you’ve done to your Troopy that can’t be done to the Grenadier. The BMW power train is a tried and tested unit as are the Carraro axles they have been making 4x4 off-road axles for decades. Parts for the grenadier are more readily available than you give credit. You probably wouldn’t be able to get a ECU for any vehicle in the Australian outback but you would find it easier to locate a bmw ecu in Europe than you would a Troopy or in the US and Canada for that matter. Without doubt Toyota build a brilliant 4x4 but the grenadier has more to offer for the off road / overland enthusiasts. I know not everyone will agree but if I was buying a vehicle to travel overland I would buy a Grenadier over a Toyota.

[@BubblesTheCat1]

Grenadier is scared of what Andrew will say in one of his rants. He doesn't hold back, and if something bothers him, he speaks his mind. Grenadier don't want that🤭 At the end of the day Toyota is better in Australia and Afrika beyond all doubt.

[@nihallee]

Troopies and Old Defenders are actually very exotic here in Canada and even all North America ;o) So depends where you go I guess. For example, you cannot get 2013 Defender parts or 2020 Land Cruiser parts at the dealer. It gets better as you get down South America though. But around here, the Toyota 4Runner, Sequoia, Ford Expedition, LR3-4, Nissan Pathfinder or Armada are good choices for parts availabilities. If Grenadier keeps opening distribution centers, it may become a good option too... Good talk, Cheers!

[@georgeszurbach444]

To summarize Exotic = modern for you. Everyone can give words the definition they want.

[@Treetopflyer777]

But I believe his modern 4 cyl troopy isn’t exotic. (By his definition). However it is “modern”

[@theslimeylimey]

Watch the video again and this time listen to the words being said.

[@georgeszurbach444]

@@theslimeylimey no thanks cant go through this again but please enlight me !

[@theslimeylimey]

@@georgeszurbach444 If you are too lazy to listen to and understand a clear video then I'm too lazy to explain it to you.

[@georgeszurbach444]

@theslimeylimey you seem even more confused than me with all those exotic offriaders

[@paulbarnard5267]

Great discussion.

[@primafacie6442]

Would you buy a new Grenadier with a 35% reduction from rrp?

[@fredbreck344]

Absolutely agree. Grenadier is still and in future an exotic car, because they are so sell sold right now. BR

[@beast6able]

Not having a 'go' but Lander Rover(Leyland) listened to Len Beadell back in the day on some of the car's short comings.

[@alexandrvit1850]

I see your point. Anyhow to build and certify vehicle in EU in pretty complex to fit the legal requirements. I have got MY2023 Grenadier, meaning without all the cameras and assistant modules. The real remote areas become rare and within these circumstances, Ineos is definitely a fair alternative. For me it was the best option. But the fact is I will probably never leave Europe, Middle East, Northern Africa with my vehicle. Thus cannot compare with Australia or Argentina, etc. INEOS extends the dealership network all around the globe, I see, and using components from well known global brands increase the chance you get the spareparts. Toyota does have advantage of the history and talking LC-70 series it is 40 years now. Of course LC70 is well known everywhere where is no asphalt. I do belive (hope) Grenadier will be similar in 10-20 years. My short experience shows Ineos is perfect for overland rebuild as things are prepared there. But fair enough you do not want to be the early bird. Also fair you have your LC camping and adventure setup finetuned by years. Understand it! I started from zero. I took Ineos :-)

[@youtubecarspottersguide1]

here in the states all our best off road wagons /s.u.v. 's most are more 3 row luxury family school bus with independent rear axle for a smooth ride and leg room for the 3rd row , the gen 5 Toyota 4Runner and Lexus GX 470 V8 are our best wish we had a troopy like van in the U.S.

[@Arda86ca]

If you truly wanna feel safe all around the world then the 100 series Land Cruiser Petrol is your only true warrior (uzj100) It was sold all over the world in heaps of numbers. They were available literally everywhere. All the others are exotic in one place or the other. (owner of a hzj76 cruiser)

[@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080]

Any vehicle built in numbers below 20,000 units per year is an exotic. That includes all Land Cruisers. If they're only sold regionally that makes them more exotic.

[@4xoverland]

Over 30 000 Land Cruiser 200s were sold every year in Australia alone. Land Cruiser are not exotics in countries where they are sold.

[@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080]

​@4xoverland not according to Wikipedia. The number in Australia for ALL Land Cruisers combined is about half (14,350ish) that number. Most being the Prado'. It is true that the 300 and 250 are selling like crazy in Japan, all 70-Series combined are only about 5000 units world wide annually. That is exotic.

[@robertom883]

@@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080 By definition Exotic has nothing to do with numbers

[@gerritvr4]

@@4xoverlandyou make no sense. $156,000 for LC300 is pretty exotic

[@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080]

@robertom883 well the first word of the definition of exotic; "unusual" and exciting because of coming (or seeming to come) from far away. Implies that low production or import numbers are absolutely part of the definition.

[@joshuabuss4870]

Would still love to see how you build a Grenny. Brown Davis now have a aux fuel tank and AluCab and Mulgo have roof conversions.

[@peterbullen3347]

Lets get on to Ineos and ask them if they would sponsor a Camel Trophy like event, perhaps find an endurance or clothing manufacturer to sponsor it with Ineos... Lets get the petition started Andrew...

[@cenccenc946]

"exotic" in overlanding = can't find parts. A jeep, a Chevy, etc are all "exotic" in certain parts of the world. All context dependent. 😆

[@stevegreen101]

Ineos were very aware of this label in the early days. They countered the apprehension with a tiered approach to both parts & technical support. Parts were to be no more than 48 hours away. Technical support was going to be available to every owner with dealer level technical details via an online portal, HQ technical support staff would be available by direct telephone, and then there were to be "flying spanners" who would travel the world if necessary. Sadly, the reality of what's been delivered is very different. I waited 4 weeks for a common failing part. There's still no online portal nearly two years after sales first began, no HQ telephone support, and talk of "flying spanners" belongs in a conversation with the abominable snowman, the Lock Ness monster and sightings of Lord Lucan.

[@istp1967]

I reckon it is an Exotic; mainly because it was meant to Replace the modern Defender and SUCEED the Classic Defender, but has failed to do so. Personally, when it comes to 4WDs; I much prefer NOT to go beyond the '90s.

[@MrDaanram]

Andrew, expedition centre in Sydney does a rooftop conversion fro a grenadier. So it would be like your troopy, but different. Could be good for the channel!

[@bafumat]

Yea, here in the US, Mercedes and BMW are both basically exotic. Even though there are dealerships everywhere, the parts for most European cars have to be shipped in and can take weeks.

[@overland_adventure_nz]

Well said, for myself the Grenadier that started off as a Defender workhorse replacement turned into a Range Rover competitor to take the kids to school. What do I mean? There’s no basic model available to just go offroad and work every day, there’s no way I would put a few sheep or a few calves in the back and take them to the Vets in the cattle yards for a check up like numerous people did with the original defenders. My parents would throw a few sheep in the back of our new FJ40 back in the 70’s. My 2023 Troopy in standard New Zealand spec is still a workhorse and there’s room for a good number of sheep in the back.

[@georgebrabec1160]

Heads-up Andrew, there's a channel called "For Relax" posting your videos. They've posted 2 of your videos over the past 2 days.

[@georgebrabec1160]

channel itself isn't searchable. Channel is at For_relaxing01

[@4xoverland]

thank you! I found it and posted a copyright infringement to KZbin.

[@cardigankid1]

You know way more about this than me, but I would struggle with an old Defender because it is so uncomfortable. What it can do is impressive but I’m happy to get out of it.

[@Dodgy_Dave]

Well I guess this whole discussion depends highly on how you define "remote places". For Africa and Australia this all might be true. But what about Europe, Asia (besides the middle east) as well as North- and South America. Different discussion for sure but very important if you want to actually travel "the world"

[@vvk]

In Europe you don't need advanced 4x4 to travel long distances. In most places you actually need proper 4x4 it would be illegal to drive. In the US the situation is similar. You need 99% of the time a vehicle to get you to the trailhead. Of course there is a case for people who want to do off-roaing as entertainment but this is a different scenario.

[@gabrielback5615]

To the same point, on a far smaller but equally important scale, my advice to my children has been to buy a vehicle that comes from a local dealer. No matter what brand as long as it's a dealer in our smaller town and not a desired vehicle from a dealer in the "local" big city over 200 km away. At least help is available when you need it and you're not stranded in your exotic,( here, that means anything but GM, Ford, Chrysler)

[@mikefoster7085]

That's extremely difficult in may places in the world, especially if you are using whatever vehicle for remote travel.

[@unimog404]

great episode and great lesson about vehicles. I would expect this in the workshop channel. but that is the travel channel. and then you have the overland workshop course. it is so confusing. I think you need to rebrand or rename your channels so it makes sense again

[@allanjgray1]

All very sensible.

[@max4wd]

W460 G Wagon driver from europe here, I agree 100%. G Wagons are extremely capable and very reliable vehicles but you notice in many engineering and design choices that this car was designed and built in europe. What do I mean? For example axle servicability, especially W460s running bigger tires are very prone to premature wheel bearing or kingpin bearing failures. I have rebuilt my front axle in my driveway but I wouldn't want to do it in the middle of the forest or along the canning stock route. It is possible to do this with regular on board tools but simply a lot harder and more time consuming than on a 70 Series or even a Defender. Rear axle is almost impossible to do in the bush, you basically need to carry specialty tool or makeup a hydraulic press using a jack. Also W460 G Wagons basically use regular passenger car engines and transmissions with minor modifications. They are very robust but I think especially old HZJ75s Landcruisers have much stronger transmissions. To close the circle when driving a modern car like a Grenadier you face not getting spares and much more things to go wrong at once. I'd be much more confident in a 2.8 GD 70 Series where atleast all driveline components, bearings etc are either the same or very similar to the other models.

[@overlandingTZ]

Some people don't seem to understand that exotic means complications for overlanding, exotic is luxurious. Toyota makes luxurious cars for eg the Lc200 or 300 but why do professional overlanders don't use them for solo trips? Cars/trucks with less electronics are the best as Andrew said in so many videos. The old landcruisers can compete with any car out there on any overlanding trip and make it. It's the simplicity of repairing a car that makes it the best.

[@keesduvekot]

Andrew, just an FYI .. I reported a channel to KZbin that had your videos on it ...

[@4xoverland]

thank you! I found it and posted a copyright infringement to KZbin.

[@debluetailfly]

Ineos should have been designed without computers, and given a spartan interior with a dash of useful gauges.

[@phillprice5225]

Your Africa build let you down in many ways and you complained that it had so many flaws and faults that it was frustrating and unsatisfying. How then are we to understand that it’s the best way to build the perfect vehicle?

[@wewemjinga]

@@phillprice5225 when you get a house built by builder would you say you are building it or im getting it built?

[@tomlobos2871]

just to give this a thought. looking at where automotive goes nowadays its a matter of time that even the icons disappear. this will cut into parts supply as well while the number of used vehicles decrease over time. ineos did good on tackling old values of 4x4 driving but question is if they can become relevant on international scales to remain in longer perspectives. mercedes still has a worldwide service network and the agricultural G is covered by mercedes trucks, some versions of the sprinter share parts, they are used by wealthy NGO's worldwide. now in theory, if i would start a new car company like ineos did, i'd rather approach it a different way. would make ladder frames that adopt to existing parts bins if patents expired. or buy in licences and then offering this as knock down kits in return. it can be adopted or labeled as whatever one needs a ladder frame for, community vehicles, overlander, military, agriculture, vip transport, mallcrawler. one just has to add the idea of coachbuilding. we see such tendencys on delivery vans already, resulting in badge engineering and a huge engine choice across brand borders, while basic parts remain the same. this should happen on a handful 4x4 platforms. a wise man once said "if toyota stops making the troop carrier, africa will face problems..."

[@our_roadtrip]

The Land Cruiser is an exotic in a lot of places. Try to find spares for it in Iceland...

[@4xoverland]

This is what I am saying. If a car isn't found where you are travelling, it becomes an exotic. Irrespective of the badge on the grille.

[@ThePan51]

It's an exotic in Germany as well, even to std Toyota dealers. The thing is, get the the car for overlanding that is an exotic in the least number of countries. That is Defenders and 70 series.

[@SaltShack]

The Grenadier is an “Exotic”, fine. Valid opinion and Mr. ST. Pierre White’s opinions are far more authoritative than most in this space. But, to lament that Ineos didn’t build a car that essentially no government in the world would allow to sold in their country is of limited benefit as much as I share it. Has Ineos’ engineering philosophy of “graceful degradation” fallen short? Has Ineos avoided doing the Canning because of a lack of confidence? Canning is 1,850 Km. Ronny Dahl did 12,000 on his 6 month loaner Grenadier from Ineos without breaking anything. That requires far more confidence than a factory team of engineers and mechanics driving the Canning or anywhere else in the world. Did Mr. Dahl do the canning in the Grenadier? No, but so what, the real question is would he? So, I think Mr. St. Pierre White should ask him?

[@cardigankid1]

A G-Wagen today is way over £100k. A Grenadier has a top quality powerful engine. It rides well over rough surfaces. It is comfortable and good to drive. All at £70k. Surely that has to be a bargain.

[@tonyf7997]

UK and Australia are totally different in terms of remoteness and availability of parts and mechanics that can work on BMW 1500km from the nearest town … £70 + build

[@DMSVICAU]

What Word would Describe the Hi-Ace?

[@4xoverland]

VERY good question. Best yet.

[@petermills1402]

Andrew, go buy a Grenadier and install a 1HD-FTE engine and there you have it, an "unexoticatised" Ineos. Or just buy a BMW engine rebuild kit of parts ready to ship wherever you may break down. But DONT lose the electronic key, they weely weely cost a mozza and might take 3 months to get to you.......

[@freeline3601]

All modern cars are now so loaded with safety features, etc they are all exotic. Ineos tried to reduce the number of semiconductors to the bare minimum in order to keep the Grenadier a more basic vehicle.

[@stevegreen101]

They might have tried but somewhere along the way, they failed. Look at how the winch, rear power and diffs locks are all software defined. All choices by Ineos and totally unnecessary.

[@wewemjinga]

@@stevegreen101 you need to Robert Peppers interview with Ineos tech to understand the how and why's

[@stevegreen101]

​@@wewemjingaI've seen that. What's in that interview that's relevant to my post?

[@wohnzimmeraquarium4174]

It's absolutely right, the grenadier is exotic. But which vehicle currently in production is less exotic? Which current vehicle has fewer electronics without which the vehicle drives? Many modern off-road vehicles have air suspension and the entire chassis is fully electronically controlled. If you only disconnect the on-board battery briefly, you need a laptop to configure the vehicle, otherwise it won't drive. From this point of view, the Grenadier is the less exotic one. In the medium term, this will become a problem with all new models. It is also a problem of legal requirements. It starts with safety equipment and exhaust regulations. But it is also the market. Increasingly, the off-road vehicle is becoming the fancy car of city dwellers and then comfort takes precedence over solidity and simplicity. Compared to its competitors, the Grenadier is still very down-to-earth; the vehicle you want would unfortunately be unacceptable as a new car today, however right you may be.

[@Millie-md4jk]

Parts on a g wagon are NOT easy to get - most are not in stock

[@Coordinator61]

An older G-Wagon will do it all andrew. They still do. Thats why you cannot take a new Defender on the Canning, rolling laptops.

[@kadmow]

Grenadier is an orphan. Anything non indigenous could be defined "exotic" by those who like to use such terms. (Extremely complicated and CANBused from top to tail - is a planned obsolescence feature.) - Nothing in recent memory is "home grown" in Australia... Of course common parts are a given with connon vehicles (still "exotic" - lol - in manty cases.... - Toyo LC spares - or in Australia Hilux/ PX Ranger (lesser common in the remote bush) have reasonable parts availability, the problem in Australia s that there may not be a mechanic of any standing within 300 km... - It isn't so much the ECU in vehicles one wants to avoid, is is a vehicle with a BODY Control Unit... Nothing is a simple wire and switch.. (ECU is generally more reliable than a distributor + Carb - there may not be a junkyard full of spares, bit ther eis still a mailing service to geta new one in the unlikely event it fails.)

[@RyuKyuRvr]

It is unfortunate that almost everythingnis turning exotic. Its why i went and found a 95 Discovery 1 with a manual gearbox. Simple changes to make it reliable and cheap repairs to makenit just a littlw more durable and i go everywhere all these exotics go, at half the price and none of the anxiety!

[@TheSpoovy]

No anxiety driving a '95 disco? I want some of whatever you're taking :)

[@landrover1155]

If its a V8 it is about as simple and reliable as it gets. I saw 350,000klm on my 95 D1 V8 auto and it was utterly reliable.​@TheSpoovy

[@fabsdriveexperience2231]

The world can’t buy only land cruisers just because you can easily get “wheel bearings” in every pharmacy’s… these days you plan ahead and make good maintenance and take possible spares with you

[@williamwilcox-rd7cx]

The Toyotas would be exotic in North America Canada in particular.

[@guscunningham]

You are such a Toyota fan boy.

[@Indecisive7337]

I’d like an ex MoD G Wagon, basic and tough

[@James-j2k1w]

Van updates..... Even small progress would be interesting..v

[@tron520]

Love the new vehicles that are coming out on the 4x4 market, but would never buy one, I have an old army land rover, it's a spanner and a hammer fix, for me that suits my needs, find the new stuff just a cost bucket, too many sensors, that tell you something is wrong, eye ball number 1, hearing and feel tell me when my landy is not right.

[@rvrnnr987]

Q: What makes an overlander exotic? A: Living in America.

[@pantoqwerty]

Question - if the Grenadier were to not be an exotic where would they have obtained the engine and gearbox? Genuinely interested who will sell their components to other brands other than BMW. Pretty sure Toyota wouldn’t.

[@g0fvt]

Toyota certainly supply engines and gearboxes to Lotus.

[@teamsaurer]

Iveco would sell the 3 Liter 4 Cylinder F1C like in the Daily. For this engine there are all kind of gearboxes - manual and Allison.

[@raywalters8571]

It’s just flat true however did miss on something that’s happening with bmw engine and auto box i think we will find engine parts readily available due to all conversions are getting done rest of it wheel bearings diffs definitely exotic this said I put Barra turbo in me baby 60 series buy parts are nearly every wreckers thou 😱👍🤣

[@amcluesent]

Every Govt. Is forcing us back to the horse and cart.

[@jasonhowe1697]

my opininion most 4x4's today are people that live in the pretend delusion of looking the part though 100k to br functional off road whether you run a inios, g-wagon, landrover 80,. 90, 110, land cruiser 40, 60. 80.100 series, .. i never use petrol options fo refill because it limits where get spare fuel; land rover do exist outside the metro area howeverr what't in stock mimight a jerry rig to work more electrical crap you tak on the more crap to fail; irf i owned an inios i would drive where it'd designed to functionallt work in the city to work in places outside the metro area lwb models are a need as is long ranrange for inios to practical here you need access toyota 6 cyl disels and may nr take a leaf frome the preentie land rovers

[@pauls4708]

which engine does your africa troopy have?

[@nawiribrahim]

1HZ Straight 6 Diesel naturally aspirated

[@pauls4708]

@@nawiribrahim that is at least simpler than a common rail. The V8 must be exoctic as well?(and the new 4 cyl)