What Makes Bottom Tier Characters SO BAD!?

[@jacobmohr82]

When 0-aura Lucario does more damage than Sheik..

[@notyou6674]

yes, if you for some reason count individual hits rather than average combo damage. sheik is a high tier even according to top players and any damage buff would seriously be insane.

[@jacobmohr82]

@@notyou6674 none of that matters if you can't ko

[@notyou6674]

@@jacobmohr82 i guess but who would be that bad of a player

[@spenceralger3600]

Jacob Mohr Sheik’s KO options aren’t that bad. Some decent setups around 90-120 at ledge, and easy early gimps on a fair amount of the cast, and fairly easy to land smash attacks

[@iceygamingrulez]

Well lucarios counter kills you

[@talkingforretress450]

“What makes bottom tier characters so bad?” little Mac mains:*THE EXPERT*

[@artmastertyler9097]

talking forretress you honestly aren’t wrong 😂😂 I relate to this BECAUSE I’m a Mac player 😂

[@akdarkmagician]

Don’t forget bayonets players

[@internalflame5679]

Ak DarkMagician she ok but she needs buff

[@ImheretoTeach]

@@internalflame5679 just can't be like smash 4 lol

[@internalflame5679]

Apittman 13 ya I don’t think I would play her if they buff her that much

[@JJSquirtle]

my guy, you forgot the biggest one: a lack of options.

[@colinbeumer3618]

that's nearly synonymous with frame data my guy

[@ADxTygon]

Cloin not really. Sheik and meta knight have great frame data but lack good options. For instance, by the time sheik gets the opponent to kill%, she loses her early% combo potential to set up into those confirms, making her play riskier to secure the same edge guards and stocks other characters take very easily. Take joker: you know he can kill you with drag down up air off of fair 1, so you have to respect that and space accordingly, letting him go for mixups with falling gun tech chase, or safe pressure from eiha. Sheik doesnt have this equivalent, meaning you dont have to respect her approach as carefully, and if she does get a hit on you, at most it will be a jab lock into smash, killing comparatively very late. Essentially sheik lacks any options beyond just pressing buttons on your shield. And when she has she can get a combo started, but against characters with a better neutral game that becomes more of a problem than an asset. If you want another good comparison, look at bowser: ledge traps and shield pressure with fire breath, good kill options across the board, great out of shield, burst options. Hes slow but has enough tricks to be decent.

[@colinbeumer3618]

Dayyniel An option doesn't necessarily have to lead into anything though. For instance, did you know that Fox's jump>shine is one of his fastest OOS options? Of course, shine doesn't combo or kill but this is still a viable option at very high percents because of how fast it is. Sheik fair isn't a combo move at high percents, nor does it kill but it's still fast and safe if spaced well which makes it a good option in neutral since it can send off stage where you can edgeguard with Nair or other options. Of course, the Fox shine example isn't a good option at all 99% of the time because shine doesn't have enough knockback or hitstun to be safe. This is why I said NEARLY synonymous, not all fast options are good, but most can at the very least reset to neutral. Fast options are threatening at high percentents even if they don't kill or combo.

[@DeltaTried]

Can people leave a Tl;DR in their comments?

[@teedeegremlin]

*laughs in Hero*

[@MrGameguyC]

Yep, Dr. Mario is so bad that no one even remembers him when making these bad character videos. Thus no one knows about his huge problems, he never gets buffed since no one ask for them and not many people even hate fighting him unlike say Mac or Ganon, so his mains lose regardless.

[@shieldlesscap6124]

Nah, with Doc he isn’t acknowledged because he actually has sauce, he just has one glaring flaw that makes him not worth using Literally just higher air speed (unlike Kirby, Doc’s needed air speed improvement isn’t as big) and a better recovery is all Doc needs

[@toasty0710]

Doc is actually a pretty solid character in my opinion. He still got the solid frame data, he got massive K.O power, and he even has a move that spikes (trust me as a proud Bowser Jr main you shouldn't take that for granted). I'm actually super surprised that ma boi Bowser Jr had gameplay shown of him at all. He is easily the most slept on character in the entire game. Right next to Meta Knight and Sonic.

[@musique-ef3rz]

I know if he was faster he could abuse his frame 3 kill option (up b)

[@N12015]

@@musique-ef3rz Which is also a great OoS option. But that speed, he is so slow and range lacking that his approach are just awful.

[@Lone_Rocket]

The doc is like low mid tier. Sure his recovery isnt great, but he's baisically just a heavier Mario.

[@gilbertguerrero2916]

Bad recovery Limited approach Limited combos Horrible disadvantage Non existent range So basically Little Mac.

[@MxPokirby]

>Little Mac >Limited approach If you're not approaching with Side-B, what're you even doing with your life? And if you use Side-B to approach but it doesn't work, it sounds like you didn't Side-B hard enough.

[@gilbertguerrero2916]

Mr. Pokirby I hope this is a joke. Macs only semi reliable approach option is down tilt. Haymaker is laggy as hell and it’s far from a safe approach tool.

[@moonstruck6591]

@@gilbertguerrero2916 An obvious joke

[@Dom-ey5fk]

Cmon dude just Side-B harder 😂

[@johnnykuntry6577]

Take away bad recovery and horrible disadvantage, and you have Bayonetta.

[@keksidy]

I like how most of the bottom tiers aren't even "bad," everyone else is just better than them

[@brianangeli4378]

And then there’s little mac

[@kanra_]

Darth Balgus if he had a good recovery he wouldn’t be that bad

[@esqimo6647]

kanra _3012 nah his aerials literally have no use, neither do his specials tbh except haymaker, his tilts are only okay (ftilt is great, dtilt can combo but not at kill percents consistently, utilt is negative on hit at low percents and doesn’t combo at kill percents, jab is fine) and his smashes are all great but with quite a bit of lag. Even with a good recovery he’s still be one of the worst

[@Kyara7]

@@esqimo6647 You forgot to mention how bad his grab is

[@younglink324]

@@Kyara7 what grab?

[@th1b571]

Them: "Characters who are slow." Heavyweights: "Heavyweight problems need heavyweight solutions."

[@tepes6563]

*Laughs in 20% Bowser f-smash at ledge

[@sandals7384]

@@tepes6563 laughs in everything effected by revenge

[@Saskaruto16]

Overall while the video is good on a basic level, I think many aspects should have gone way more in depth. You could have talked about several of the unique attributes, and separate important factors that you just lumped together. "Ground speed" should actually be 2 things. Initial dash, and run speed. Which both affect the character very differently, and in many cases they don't scale with each other the way you might expect. Initial dash controls your dash dance and burst range which are two of the most important things in smash. Run speed controllers your ability to cross long distances either for juggles, running away, or rushing down players who want to zone or run away from you. They are both very different but important in their own right, and being good at one but not the other (like Wolf as you mentioned has air speed, but also has a fast initial dash to give him better burst range than his slow speed might make you think). This can still allow for a very strong character, but does force specific limitations. You also put combos and confirms/setups all in one section. A character can have really terrible combos but amazing confirms or vice versa. They aren't the same thing at all. You didn't really talk about setplay at all, more so just grouped it in "kill power" when again they aren't the same thing.

[@johnnysuperbman4396]

Yeah i noticed that too. Falco is an example of a character that has some of the best combo game in the whole roster, but lack of reliable confirms which is probably the only thing keeping him from being high tier.

[@Saskaruto16]

@@johnnysuperbman4396 Pretty much. His speed, inconsistent hitboxes, and his lack of later confirms just kill him. If you miss his bair confirm window it's like impossible to kill.

[@SegaDisneyUniverse]

Has Isabelle on the thumbnail but explains nothing about her...

[@savonmcleod7265]

Yeah most people who don't play her don't really know what's wrong with her. There is a lot wrong with her

[@Nintendo_Wolf]

Lucario needed a buddy so he wouldn't be all alone

[@techno--]

She is incredibly slow and can't even camp well, all of her gimmicks are easily avoided

[@SegaDisneyUniverse]

@@techno-- Agreed, she has the worst time against rush down fighters, I learned the hard way.

[@sdwsamix864]

Seventy 7 I play her and the only thing that I can remember that is wrong with her is the time it takes to f smash and the distance of her F smash Also it’s hard to jab and immediately do another attack but it might just be me that has some training to do

[@MetaDHedge28]

When Lucario is here but is on B tier in Proguides' tier list

[@09JDCTrainMan]

Lucario is on their B tier

[@MetaDHedge28]

@@09JDCTrainMan Whatever close enough

[@stealthyshadow567]

Really doesn’t make sense he’s considered even mid tier when he has losing matchups against about every top tier.

[@skulltothebone5003]

The tier list of the sit is just fucked 😂 like Ganondorf better than K. Rool

[@scapatu3417]

Will probably descend To Dtier

[@anonymousasian589]

0:15 no Marth didn't get buffed, but not a bottom tier

[@kingkrispy5289]

Anonymous Asian rip tipper dude

[@darnacles]

yall made mac's recovery game look even worse than it really is 😂

[@artmastertyler9097]

Ninetales I know right? They had a bot playing mac😂 that’s not a good example

[@Dom-ey5fk]

Doesn't really change the fact that his recovery is the worst

[@jamesgassaway8866]

0 + 0 still equals zero.

[@JJSquirtle]

@@jamesgassaway8866 Mac mains: I wish for mac to have a recovery and aerials multiple times better than right now! Sakurai: k Mac mains: he's just as bad tho! Sakurai: 0* anything is still 0 ಡ ͜ ʖ ಡ mac mains: ┻┻︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵┻┻

[@stealthyshadow567]

JJSquirtle they nerfed his down and up tilts which were his saving grace in smash 4, also his side b is more exploitable and goes less distance because the worst character in the game needed a few nerfs to compensate for his astounding one “buff” he got.

[@vDREEGONv]

Lucario: *Is in thumbnail* Any relevance this video may have had: *Vanished*

[@weaslyhills4466]

8:00

[@yo-kaikid1925]

Lucario is mid tier not bottom

[@xCaPTaiNx]

Lucario mains: see thumbnail Also Lucario mains: *So you have chosen death*

[@kendogthetikiandyoshimain6089]

I don't main Robin but i want robin faster because i love her shes so much fun

[@theodoreyoshelle1901]

yeah. he doesn't even need that much of a speed buff. little bit more air acceleration, maybe even a reliable kill throw. and bam, we have a high tier

[@johnnykuntry6577]

Robin is not a bad character though. With smash attacks for aerials and an above average projectile game, Robin is far from bottom tier.

[@theodoreyoshelle1901]

@@johnnykuntry6577 it's not above average. it's just average. arcfire has a lot of endlag, so the neutral b's are his only projectiles, that can be used as such.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

@@theodoreyoshelle1901 Robin's back throw is already a perfectly good kill throw, what are you talking about? And why do you people use "reliable" as a synonym for "good"?

[@theodoreyoshelle1901]

@@100organicfreshmemes5 because if you can't kill someone at 180%, if he knows how to di properly, then it isn't good. Sometimes people get surprised and die at 120. Sometimes they know and don't die at all. the angle , at which they are sent, is way to vertical to be considered "good". This inconsistency is why i call it unreliable

[@InXefazRules]

I didn't see anything about Isabelle yet again. Yet again she is forgotten. #BuffTheBelle

[@ibedoobert]

Isabelle will rise once again...

[@savonmcleod7265]

Yeah bro we just gotta be patient

[@davidc.]

Worst villager

[@cheeseham9503]

When you only main bottom-tier characters.

[@ancientapparition1638]

dorf is s tier

[@dddmemaybe]

@@ancientapparition1638 S as in Style. Normal style not Smokin' Sexy Style though. oh wait forgot my three "!!!".

[@cereal7591]

I feel your pain, man. Almost all the characters I love are low tier

[@BeezeeChutter]

Bowser might actually be kind of an exception cause he also hits wide and fast. Making approaching him difficult if you know what you’re doing. He can also take the damage, and deal it too

[@jaguar4120]

Same with Gaon.

[@yoyoguy1st]

Bowser isn’t an exception. He’s up there among the fastest characters in the game, he has great hitboxes and lots of good options.

[@BeezeeChutter]

@yo-yo_guy Good point. That’s why Bowser is ma main! P.S. what’s your main?

[@yoyoguy1st]

Bowl o’ fruit I main Lucario. I have a bit of a love hate relationship with him. He’s a pretty bad character, but he’s super cool so continue to suffer with him.

[@BeezeeChutter]

@yo-yo_guy Yeah that’s what ya gotta do sometimes

[@harryvpn1462]

Their lack of options

[@toneyaustin2386]

If incinaroar’s up-special was tweaked just a little bit to be similar to Cloud’s and Mii fighter he would definitely be at least mid-tier. He’s slow but his revenge is so powerful it can put him in the Ganon range for power and survivability.

[@ciel1486]

Sheik could do a 55 hit combo against Little Mac, throw him off-stage and he would still recover.

[@skyjack1]

*with a jet pack

[@drk166]

@@skyjack1 *and another 3 jumps

[@skyjack1]

@epik gamer *With a Star Launcher

[@kylelacey1212]

You know, if the new KoF stage somehow gets legalized, it's a walkoff with walls that break when dealt enough damage. It'd literally be Mac's perfect stage. For that reason alone, it'll probably remain banned because counter-picking there with Mac would be a free win. He's absolute shit everywhere but the ground, but on the ground...Oof.

[@MoFiTheMagnificent]

4:36 I laughed because watching a Lil mac try to edge guard is so absurd

[@praevidens]

Whenever we play smash, I used to pick Isabelle all the time even though she is a low tier. The owner (Dan) always beat me with Cloud, but I can defeat everyone else. At this point, I can't win with Isabelle anymore.. They all know my moves and I get countered easily. I started to lose hope but then.. Dan was using Pokemon trainer (He's really good at it, no one could defeat him), I manage to win best of out 3, 2-1 against him using Isabelle of course. Ever since I never underestimated isabelle and her combos.

[@Baphybuddy]

Decep_tion even if your character is mid, low or bottom tier, don’t stop hoping! I mean... I just got 5th place at a weekly tournament with players better than me with Piranha Plant, if it isn’t a sign to keep playing characters, even if they’re low or bottom tier, then I don’t Know what will

[@xx_v_xx4373]

I never understood what made isabelle bad

[@Baphybuddy]

@@xx_v_xx4373 floaty character along with being a lightweight, not so good options for landing, and has some troubles to kill, that's what makes Isabelle not the greatest, then again, she can keep you easily offstage or do some clutches with her fishing rod.

[@bee5440]

Isabelle is Ganon-tier in the casual game

[@sauce193]

Rise up, Isabelle mains.

[@FaySwine]

These things can also contribute to less competitive viability. Having a fast fall speed when compared to your air movement speed. Like Banjo. Being a projectile specialist with with vary little none projectile moves. Like Mega man and Villager. And having no way around disjointed hit boxes. This is an issue if the character’s moves have small hit boxes, don’t have disjointed hit boxes themselves, or even a counter. Captain Falcon sadly at least fits two of these.

[@drk166]

bruh mega man is like high teir

[@SynysterProjects]

"Being slow in many ways almost always results in a poor character" Bowser and Ganon: exist

[@MrScaryowl]

Syn's Project ganon is terrible and bowser isn’t slow

[@SynysterProjects]

@@MrScaryowl "Ganon is terrible" yet places well at almost every Ultimate tournament. "Bowser isn't slow" yet has one of the worst ground and air speeds in the game as well as tons of start-up/endlag on many of his attacks. Oooookay dude.

[@MrScaryowl]

@@SynysterProjects ganon hasn't placed well since launch... he's a good mu for any character that is faster than him, or that can pressure his shield, or that can ledgeguard him, which is basically the entire cast except mac. Bowser is 19th fastest on the ground - ahead of lucina, behind diddy kong. His initial dash is 4th fastest in the game. His aerials are fast (most less than frame 10) and easy to auto cancel and most of them kill. F air in particular has a ton of range+is disjointed and since his airspeed isn't anything to sneeze at (also 19th fastest in the air) he has no trouble using it to get you offstage, or to space with swordies. His tilts all have super armor and so do his smashes, but the only tilts worth using most of the time are ftilt and utilt, mostly ftilt. ftilt has intangibility on his hand, making it even better than it already is since it 2 frames, kills and punishes enemies for poor spacing. His jab doesn't have a lot of redeeming qualities though.

[@SynysterProjects]

@@MrScaryowl yeah I just saw GimR's video on phantom footstools and how ftilt has intangibility, that's insane. And yeah when you put it like that, it's hard to argue lol. Except with the Ganon thing. He does place surprisingly well pretty consistently.

[@MrScaryowl]

@@SynysterProjects he uhhh... really doesn't. Nairo got away with it because he was bodying everyone in the tourney. Ganon's playstyle (bait and punish) just doesn't work at high level when you're slow as fuck. any character works at locals, if you see a ganon in a major tournament place well, it'd be approximately the same time EA stopped putting microtransactions in their games.

[@dsyy90210]

yall should've at least showed incineroar's ground speed with dash spamming instead of just running

[@dasheiten]

I heavily agree with this. Sure, his foxtrot is still slow, but it's better. lol

[@niclas3406]

0:25 paid 60 bucks on Proguides for nothing

[@oscartheengineer]

In school but got a free period love the guides thanks pg!

[@tekgeekster]

I love the idea of having a secondary or pocket main to cover bad matchups. Unfortunately I don't have anyone good to play with nearby and online match making is shit. Why did they change it in ultimate?

[@HolyCrepe]

WHY IS LUCARIO HERE?? WRRRRYYYYYYYY FITE ME

[@Asderios]

Lucario without aura can do a few combos with little to no damage, when he has aura, he can't combo anymore. And if he gets killed before using his aura to kill the opponent, you have to receive some damage to have de oportunity to take the stock. As a Lucario secondary, it hurts me.

[@sullivans2004]

Asderios He’s fucking brilliant though! 1v1 me lol My friend code: 7565-5131-5814 My Discord: Sul #5691

[@XXSteel]

Asderios lucario can combo with aura

[@stitischannel1963]

Lucario is really good, minimum high tier (my opinion) But he lacks a true high% combo, like Terry with his Go, or Arsene. His Fair could send horizontally for example, he could combo with an aurasphere. I main Lucario. He should have a melee trick to kill 60% with aura more easily. Like Ken with his Shoryuken, or Wario Up Tilt to Waft

[@HolyCrepe]

he may have weakesses, but hes not bottom tier e.e

[@master830pm]

What really makes a character bottom tier is the tier list itself. Nobody ever playes characters that are considered "low tier" and therefore no one ever finds new methods and combos to improve that character. As a result that character stays at the bottom while the "top" stay at the top.

[@flarky6465]

Anybody: I'm gonna hit you Lucario main: Ok boo-... ster

[@RyanGatts]

man, I'd love for Mac to get aerials that spike so that his air kit can be about pushing characters that love the air back onto the ground where he has the advantage. That would give you something to do at least.

[@informationnotavailable6433]

That’s actually really smart.

[@aaronm.885]

Why is it that every time someone demonstrates how bad Little Mac’s recovery is, they have them recover like an absolute idiot or flat out incorrectly? Like yeah, it is bad, really bad, but come on.

[@provence8917]

One thing that hold Incineroar back is the stage list. Zero small stages just hurt. And Sheik's low-tier btw or should be considered low-tier, now that Kongo Saga's over.

[@timbitslunatic6319]

The thing with puff is if you practice and experiment enough you have down air down b (better on bigger hit boxes) up b down b (only if enemy is an actual idiot) and up b up up tilt jump up b (practice on a LOT of characters) also side b is pretty good shield damage so... side be (on shield) then rest. Some thing I’ve learned while playing puff :/

[@TylerCutts]

Tier lists are cool but the obsession over it has ruined smash.

[@Yokai_Yuri]

If you want to win, you must consult tiers. Also tiers have existed in every single fighting game.

[@bees3707]

Tier lists should exist to show how good certain characters are, but should not be used as a guide that you should always defer to, due to how skill levels in players can vary. It should also be used to teach new players who is good and bad so they can learn who to look out for in tournaments and learn the matchups for. They should not use it to discourage people from playing who they want.

[@TylerCutts]

I think Alex summed it up. They're good for matchups but players shouldn't be discouraged from playing a character unless they're absolutely struggling with their tech. Tourneys shouldn't consist of a small handful of characters which at least in my experience tends to happen.

[@erichopkins201]

@@TylerCutts if you're discouraged from playing a character because of tier list that's something you need to fix. No is telling you not to play Kirby or little Mac, were just telling you they have a lot a weakness. It's only natural top players will lean towards easier character to play hence they yield more reward. Why you see more of them played a tournaments. Play who you want and stop thinking to much about it.

[@beboprocksteadyrulez1099]

Can relate,it's discouraging that favorites would be considered as trash or mediocre from the smash community. But I main low tiers,especially king.k Rool because I find them fun.Tiers may be like a slap in the face,but you can ignore them and focus on who you like to play as.

[@Gnarfledarf]

Conveniently, this video is just barely above the 10-minute mark, so you can place more ads.

[@Imptail123]

How dare he try to make more money on a video he created

[@drk166]

it's youtube get over it

[@Gnarfledarf]

​@@drk166 *It's

[@drk166]

@@Gnarfledarffunny that this is all you have to say.

[@drk166]

nobody: Corrin mains: CoRrIn Is SoOo UnDeRrAtEd

[@yo-kaikid1925]

lol

[@yo-kaikid1925]

Ikr

[@Les____]

I swear to god being caught in inkling roller is the equivalent of being stuck in sm4sh Bayonetta’s witch time

[@jaguar4120]

I agree. They should that move a bit. And the worse is that it doesn't matter the percentage damage you are at. It time forever to get out of.

[@jaguar4120]

Also they should buff witch time for Bayonetta. To match other characters.

[@drk166]

@@jaguar4120 "They should that move a bit." --jaguar 41 2020

[@RayZin]

Waiting for Duck Hunt to get buffed

[@Keith_Norman]

I wish prianha plant was better he's good but he could be better

[@musico4609]

I'm a plant main and I think he's fine because the lower the tier of a character then thats less excuses your opponent will have

[@Keith_Norman]

@@musico4609 yeah he's my secondary he's good but he can be better

[@musico4609]

@@Keith_Norman but that would raise him in the tier list making him less special if you were to win with him

[@XXSteel]

Keith Norman I think plant is fine as it is. Despite not having speed and a combo game, his ledge trapping and edge guarding is good. His dair, also combos into upsmash at mid percents and combos into neutral special at higher percentages. Plant is a really good and fun mid tier

[@musico4609]

@@XXSteel honestly he is really fun that's why I use him and I think hes good as he is

[@hollamonm]

I would say that there is one that you may have missed. One trick gameplay can also be a good determining factor when combined with any of the others. For example, Little Mac's whole thing is on the ground and relies on hitting his most powerful attacks on the ground. So a smart player can cause hell for a Little Mac with platforms and basically keeping the Little Mac chasing them the whole game. It's not a guarantee, but that Little Mac is gonna struggle to win for sure.

[@Sluppie]

This has more to do with game design + balancing and less to do with judging tiers, but one thing to consider when designing a character/faction/whatever is to ask yourself the following question: How far would I have to buff this person before they become grossly overpowered? So for example, take Melee mechanics where there's no super armor, then take a really slow character with bad frame data and terrible hit boxes. How much of a damage buff do you have to give him before he becomes OP against Fox? You might easily find that no amount of damage is ever going to make them good against faster characters, or that the damage you'd need to give them is ridiculously high, because the frame data and hit boxes will never allow them to get even a single hit in. Probably the clearest example of a total character shutdown I can think of this is actually Zelda from Brawl, going against Pikachu. Now, at the time Pikachu wasn't really considered to be that strong of a character overall (he's moved up to B-tier by now), but Brawl's bottom tier is called "Hyrule Tier" for a reason. This matchup is really funny to me because, since no one really wants to play bottom tier characters (like Zelda) in a game that already has a very small fanbase, no one really understands just how broken Pikachu is against Zelda. The most obvious problem is their spam camp game, in which Pikachu's Thunder Jolt clearly outclasses Zelda's Din's Fire. However, should Zelda ever desire to close range with Pikachu, she is going to then have to deal with the fact that Pikachu's down A will out-range and outspeed every single one of Zelda's ground normals while also ducking him well below Nayru's Love which might have been Zelda's only hope to poke him. I didn't really study the aerials that well but I mean... Thunder Jolt works in the air too and I still think Pikachu has better options than Zelda if she tries to approach him from above. I still find it funny that Pikachu can literally shut down over half of Zelda's moveset by spamming down+A, and I find it even funnier that almost no one seems to notice this because Brawl Zelda is just too bad to care about. No amount of damage buffs are gonna save her here either, since she can't even hit the thundermouse in the first place. She would need to be buffed in just about every area before she could even dream of being useful against what was, IIRC a B-tier character. And when I say that no one seems to understand how bad it is, what I mean is that none of the guides I read on Zelda ever really warned strongly against Pikachu or even seemed to think that his down+A was anything special. They probably didn't do the lab work to meticulously use every Zelda move vs. every Pikachu move like I did.

[@stevez2158]

I’d say that Lucario’s worst trait is frame data for sure. Despite being a midweight, his frame data is comparable to a heavyweight. His ground attacks aren’t even that disjointed either. People say Lucario is a mid-high tier, but he’s not. He’s incapable of taking stocks without taking massive damage himself, and his moveset is completely outclassed by sword characters in almost every way.

[@yoyoguy1st]

Steve Zukley His advantage stage is also straight garbage. Unlike other games where he had a good combo game he gets like... 20-30% at low percent and then has nothing after ~40% and if you have aura his combo game is just nonexistent and you just have to rack up stay hits over and over again and hope you get a read to take a stock. Which is NOT a successful game plan. He’s a bottom 20 character imo.

[@heroboo4418]

Puff lacking disjoints Hbox: *sweats nervously*

[@knight_lautrec_of_carim]

I always thought that the heavy, big characters need some kind of new mechanic to compensate.

[@bigboybunter3417]

Yeah, if more heavies had strengths like Bowser I think we'd see a lot more big bois in competitive play. Maybe strengths like "Tough Guy" and "Belly Armor" should be given to all heavies to withstand the multi hits on top tiers like Pikachu and Joker. To make it not so ridiculous but useful, I'd say make the armor more active at low percents before 50% no matter where they are on and offstage. After that, too bad, beefy. Eat the percent and knockback from all of those weak moves.

[@knight_lautrec_of_carim]

@@bigboybunter3417 Yep. As it stands, low speed will always too much of a factor for comp play. Maybe that will never change but I'd like to see them try. Bowser is at a good spot for a heavy right now.

[@bigboybunter3417]

@@knight_lautrec_of_carim I just wanna play Doc, man...just make him a bit faster and fix that recovery for competitive's AND casual's sake.

[@darkdendan]

Waddle Derp just play mario then

[@bigboybunter3417]

@@darkdendan The response, "just play ___ instead" doesn't work here. The argument isn't "I'm losing money with this character, so buff him." It's "playing this character almost guarantees a loss casually and competitively, so buff him." No one on the roster should be borderline unplayable. Playing another character doesn't fix the problem.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

This video is mostly good, but I really don't agree with the part on moves having weak hitboxes. Those weak hitboxes are pretty much always either late in the move's active frames or a sour spot that you should space appropriately for. So long as the strong hitbox is worth landing a move having those traits isn't bad, it allows for more move variety and gives the character more skill expression.

[@tyler9425]

They only ever nerfed mii swordfighter. Literally any matchup with a decent reflector is unwinnable. At least my secondary (incineroar) got some buffs, but he still sucks.

[@theomarcot4164]

Then maybe don't use your specials ? I think there is a A button who work to you know

[@alexyanez8033]

@@theomarcot4164 lol

[@tyler9425]

@@theomarcot4164 The only A button that does anything is up air, which still sucks, cause like his other Aerials, it's slow and don't take up a lot of space like other swordie Aerials. Down tilt is ok for setting up low % combos, but it's hard to get considering how slow he is and how he gets boxed out by almost every character that's mid tier and above.

[@notyou6674]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJXPm419idyXitk just play better ya dingus, stop blaming characters.

[@thomasr.6669]

ninja11 :P I’m sorry, but I main Incineroar and I have to heavily disagree on his A moves “sucking”. Fair is a pretty good ranged aerial to space against opponents and does decent KB. Nair is a quick burst option while, not being the fastest OoS option, is still pretty fast and lingers slightly. Uair is a pretty great juggling tool due to its large arc range. Dair now is basically a Falcon Dair where it consistently spikes now and is really powerful to boot. Bair is a pretty quick and powerful aerial that even angles up towards the end to catch opponents that are slightly above you. Jab is standard and has decent KB so you don’t get punished. F-tilt is slow but a decently powerful move that isn’t the easiest to punish if spaced properly. Up-tilt is a decently quick move that can reach certain platforms and can combo at lower percents. It’s not good against characters who can low profile though. D-tilt can combo at pretty much any percent. It has barely any KBG so you can combo into just about anything depending on the opponent’s DI. If any fast character had this move, it would be broken. All of his Smash Attacks are best as reads, but Up-Smash can’t be a decent anti-air that can hit an opponent from behind if they’re tall enough. The only problem is that these decent to great moves are on the slowest character in the game, so his combo/followup options are more limited compared to someone like Joker.

[@paulnoell39]

From my experience outside of smash and in smash, a bottom tier charades usually has comparable options to another character, it’s just one character’s entire set of options is stronger than the other characters. Example: Since Weiss exists in BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle, there is no reason at all to use Orie, because Weiss does everything Orie does but in a better way.

[@AverageEggmonEnthusiast]

Little Mac should get better recoveries. Make it do little damage, fine, but he should travel way further. He needs this.

[@dragonjames4500]

I embrace my characters short comings and make do with what I have.

[@BlackKnightsCommander]

Wtf is that thumbnail. Lucario looking like he's deadass flashing Isabel.

[@mecromanzer2289]

As much as I agree with you on most things for pirhana plant his edgeguarding is actually pretty solid. He has a stock trade combo with up-b and even good recovery characters can get hit with pitooey and its angles are hard and fast. Plant also has poison cloud to pressure ledge better than many other options

[@kodoku9791]

As a k rool main we don’t keep going for the same recovery option like it showed in the video which no offense is kinda stupid

[@neovssmith19]

Worst example ever..... Extremely misleading

[@SansioKongCountry]

I had the exact same thought lol.

[@theofftaskforce6546]

I love when people take a personal offense to empirical data.

[@kodoku9791]

The Off Task Force I’m not taking offense it’s just that it was not a really good example

[@giannigiannetto3086]

this vid made me realize i need to get better at trapping and reading my opponents with zelda

[@trg4youtv855]

Ok, I still love playing kirby I'm a casual anyways doubt I'll ever play in a tourney buy I have gotten kirby on several occasions to 4 million gsp. Not a brag just saying. I enjoy playing kirby but I really enjoy playing multiple characters and dont really have a main, I think I'm good with about 7 different characters

[@JohnnyCGD3]

4:10 Sure, but you picked the wrong combo for that situation. On FD, falling up air to rest would have definitely killed Mario at that percent if you extended the jab lock one more time (press down in between jabs to prevent jab 2 from coming out). Drill rest is for higher percents where falling up air rest, pound rest, and pound weak fair rest are no longer true. And at those percents, you should just be short hop resting raw or charge fsmashing when you get a sing anyway.

[@franzjuarez5729]

Pikachu looking like “you talk about me” 7:38

[@Neppix_]

6:23 You see that’s why Kirby has a *N a i r*

[@dddmemaybe]

It's slow but I find u-air is really good because it sends at a troll angle lol. If they use like Lucina b-air you is fquacked.

[@yoyoguy1st]

N-air will not help kirby recover

[@Neppix_]

yo-yo_guy it should push Mario away tho. It’s a good “get off me” tool

[@yoyoguy1st]

Nintendo Dude but it’s not. It’s only frame 8 and offstage its really bad because its FAF isn’t very good. He may possibly died because he couldn’t make it back because the lag from n-air.

[@Neppix_]

yo-yo_guy if not nair, fair probably could help

[@Schneeregen_]

I main a top tier (Inkling, might switch to Byleth), but at the level I play at tiers honestly don't matter, competency and general skill does

[@wesmoorer3638]

7 :33 was the best part Haha I am a robin main and my project tiles are hard for me to hit on smaller characters thanks for video I my opinion what makes a character low teir is Inbalance

[@x54xHantamachine]

Nothing gets me more hyped than Ridley buffs. Throwin' out hurtboxes.

[@darksyde0418]

Pit is like the most balanced character in the game.

[@Nejissj4]

You spelled low tier wrong

[@mondosworld5093]

You spelled trash wrong

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

He has "no" hitboxes.

[@gleen9843]

Pit is not useless, he is definitely balanced But then, there’s no point using him over Mario

[@ken7007]

He's bad cause he can't carry scrubs unlike others characters that let you spam 1 or 2 moves & get rewarded for it

[@bonniesamuelson1952]

My main is Greninja, as he is very fast in all ways possible, can attack in a lot of ways. He does a decent amount of damage, his recovery is pretty good, and has very good range!

[@diapollockal8962]

He's my second main

[@MarlonOwnsYourCake]

I miss my mid tier Kirby so much

[@drk166]

the brawl days

[@bluf1543]

"That doesn't even use that character" *Shows esam a Pikachu main beating up a ganon

[@santiagoossa2301]

This guy: mentions slow speed and frame data, bad recovery and no combos but doesn’t show ganon Me: *Starts laughing in Ganon* This guy: but matchups are important, *Shows a pikachu obliterating ganon* Me: *Hyrule castle theme stops*

[@justmikoto9880]

Corrins speed all around is average at best, lacks kill power, requires lots spacing for dragon lance tippers. Obvious recovery option. Still waiting for buffs but won’t get any meaningful ones

[@Nintenerdo]

What makes the character a bottom tier? The player.

[@thelittlestseal]

Yeah you're right isabelle is definitely just as good as pikachu

[@jeremias5784]

@@thelittlestseal she is, fite me

[@DeltaTried]

I was gonna say that.

[@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283]

Nah man Wolf and Daisy? They're GARBAGE, worst in the game. No one skilled should play them. They're objectively worse than characters such as Jr and Little mac

[@DeltaTried]

@@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283 you forgot about lucina and pikachu. They are so slow and have like no range unlike little mac.

[@sfc0450]

Poor kirb's probably never going to get the air speed he needs, simply because it's how he controls in his own games. Kirby's one of my most played characters in Smash, but I can't deny that I often feel like a pink punching bag.

[@drk166]

bruh even if he had airspeed he'll still be on the ground most of the time cause his tilts are good it will help mostly with his bad recovery .

[@CaptainWobbs]

I mean, Little Mac’s recovery is objectively bad, yes. But playing him has taught me to mix it up often. Plus, his side special has a massive hitbox that you can activate early if you so desire. Nothing is more satisfying than being knocked offstage and having somebody come in for an edgeguard and a “free kill”, then batting them halfway back across the stage and landing safe and sound. I think the fact that his recovery is regarded as being so bad is why everybody thinks he’s completely helpless offstage, and is coincidentally why this works. Oh, and counter projectiles if they try to edgeguard you with those.

[@dasheiten]

Yeah, and his recovery is actually passable if you side b and then air dodge to ledge instead of going under to up b, unless you're already there and close enough to make it to ledge.

[@pablocuevaszu]

Little mac Still has amazing K.O power and Speed tho🥊 both being important aspects on a good character Good tilts too and super armored smash atacks, as a Mac Main I try to use those strenghts in my favor and I can totally beat other good characters :) I know a good recovery is crucial but a lot of recoveries are vulnerable too Also a K.O punch can turn a battle 180° I'm not saying mac is top tier but he can totally put a good fight and win in the rights hands

[@angrypepe7615]

Let's be real here sure bottom tier characters are comparatively bad to the top tiers but the line between tiers is so thin and almost every character can do well. Piranha plant despite being considered a bottom tier still came second at a major. Anyone can do well and the difference between tiers in ultimate is tiny compared to every other smash game. Unless you're mac though in which case you aren't even on the tier list.

[@ZoruaMaster]

>thumbnail unrelated

[@yoshiandtailsfan8797]

*Bottom tier characters* Puts Lucario in thumbnail.

[@HolyCrepe]

bruh im filled with so much NaCl LUCARIO IS MID TO HIGH TIERRRR WRRRYYYYYYYYYY

[@Keith_Norman]

@Ryan Litjens more low to mid teir

[@XXSteel]

MarioLuigi YoshiToad130 people are really underrating lucario. Lucario without aura isn’t great but his fair conbos into itself, his down throw combos into fair and he can even get something out of his nair. The thing that makes lucario really scary is aura. Down throw fair fair up air gives you a quick 45%, nair to dash attack sends your opponent away, giving you a free neutral special charge. Nair also combos into side special at some percentages. Lucario’s can also kill at 50 mid stage, with the right read. Lucario isn’t great but he’s definitely not low/bottom

[@XXSteel]

Ryan Litjens lucario’s recovery gets much easier with practice but you may sometimes accidentally bounce before grabbing the ledge though. Lucario’s approach options aren’t good that’s why it’s better to bait and punish with him. Lucario has flaws, but aura makes him way better. He’s definitely not low/bottom.

[@nozzy3886]

And jeda is really good (top 10 of French player)

[@Sableonix]

This is like comparing weapons in Dark Souls and teaching someone that they shouldn't consider trying the odd ones. (I'm sorry guys, I needed to vent.)

[@HM03_Surf]

“Or combos that don’t achieve very much” *performs the worst Incin grab combo on the face of the planet*

[@hiro8840]

I read the thumbnail wrong.. I thought it says what makes a character bottom

[@electroshockgamer2733]

I really hate playing as Ganon. He's slow, his jumps feel so unresponsive, his frame data is horrific, and he is combo food for basically anyone who knows what they're doing.

[@dasheiten]

As a Plant main I can tell you that his combo game is his worst aspect. But he can still deal massive damage, which is good. Sakurai pls, buff Plant, even if just a little.

[@jaguar4120]

Same. Love the plant. He/she is so much fun to play as. His animations is funny.

[@dasheiten]

I think I forgot to mention Plant's speed as well, but Plant Gang will rise up one day! shoutouts to brood. lol

[@questioneverything680]

I really hate when people say Sheik is bad, she’s just bad at low level and sometimes mid level. It’s such an uninformed opinion and holds no merit at upper mid and high level play

[@aquilonthepro8319]

As someone who recently tried Sheik, I feel you.

[@ShinyMew76]

Mewtwo would be high tier if it wasn’t for that gosh darn tail and him being really lightweight... as a Mewtwo main this really is sad

[@jannomeeuwessen4886]

It's scientifically proved that if you taunt more in Smash, you'll get bodied instantly.

[@quatreraberbawinner2628]

Everything I know about fighting games tells me not to play smash, but I just can't help it sometimes

[@totallynotarobot8607]

I main Incineroar, but I always try to stay away from competitive play, I know he isn't very good. However, despite his weaknesses, amplifying a character's strengths can make them very strong. This is one of the reasons I like spirits so much. Anyways, sorry I ranted. But just wanted to throw a word out there!

[@dreamhunter5011]

5:19 This is very true but if the move you use to edge guard is something like joker's forward air then it isn't all that bad to accidentally do a move like that near kill percent. also when going up against K rool I find that he is very vulnerable to counters when recovering.

[@dragontalker]

i think king dedede is a balanced character but sometimes when i'm playing i try to cancel my up b and it doesn't work i don't know if i'm just doing it wrong or if it's very specific

[@JamesnLollify]

Kirby mains would just Down Special to land faster, and it makes them invincible for a little while. (At least it did in Smash 64)

[@jaydensalamom212]

in those clips where you say that knock back angles can’t be inconsistent you showed clips of characters hitting sour spots which don’t have the most desirable angles

[@slyfox7452]

Isabelle is viable if you learn how to use the fishing line with correct timing and avoid using her jab

[@MACA_Zeon]

David Fatman what’s the point of her jab btw? It’s so weird

[@slyfox7452]

To get your kids killed it is not viable. Their is a combo involving it but its easier to use one of her other combos

[@CaptainWobbs]

The completely opposite nature of Jiggs and Mac make their matchups, in my opinion, usually completely dominated by one or the other, but never really close. If Mac goes offstage, it’s done, Jigglypuff can just carry him off the side a bit and be completely done with him. However, since Jiggs doesn’t have a grab or shield available most of the time, Mac can tend to completely chew through with his super armor and counter. Basically, if Mac can’t stay on the stage, he’s screwed. But if he can, Jigglypuff is screwed.

[@jaysefgames1155]

Hoping your main doesn't get nerfed. It's as likely for any character to be struck.

[@jaguar4120]

I hope Ness gets nerfed. He is so annoying to fight against. His B attack is super annoying. 👿

[@iknowwhereyoulive618]

4:12 plant has falling up air > ptooie > falling up air > short hop ptooie > fair, he still sucks but i thought id put that out there lmao

[@fifteenfathomscounting]

I saw this video with Two of my three mains of the cover saying BOTTOM TIER

[@patchmuffin5248]

Tbf k rools recovery is not nearly as bad as it seems in the video, he has an excellent off stage stall game as well as basically an extra mini jump with u air as long as u can use them properly, it's only when u burn ur jump is the problem, which u don't necessarily have to burn until ur in a favored spot or put into a spot where u can't u air, which a lot of characters can't reach since rool is allowed to go as low as he want, and with u air having armor as well it allows it to be an affordable anti-edgeguard option a lot of the time as long as ur armor is healthy enough

[@thelucas2000]

Please tell me the thumbnail is clickbait

[@haustyl12]

Shiek went from high tier to low tier real quick in ultimate. Speed means nothing if you can only KO at 200%

[@swipper1467]

...but wouldn't an odd angle launch like Mewtwo's down smash be harder to DI and also putting them in disadvantage state?