What Must I Do to Be Saved? Catholicism and the Doctrine of Justification | Prof Francis Beckwith

[@JoeGantz]

Great talk. I Iiked the analogies and the ';both\and' description of Catholic Doctrine.

[@nancya8262]

Wonderful lecture!! Thank you so much for sharing this brilliant man's insights and reflections. The Thomistic Institute is a true gift from God.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

I'm just wondering how a treasury of merits fits into this idea of justification & not having to work to pay off sin debt?

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoPEZYCen6mdfJI

[@kensmith8152]

My biggest problem with Catholicism is that the church traded obedience to the law of God for the sacraments and tradition! Particularly when it comes to keeping the Saturday sabbath and the second commandment. Furthermore, in regards to the Eucharist. Hebrews says that Christ was sacrificed once and for all.

[@xenahx685]

Your primary misunderstanding is that Christianity can exist without a One Church established by Christ which holds the desposit of faith. That it is the infallible bearer of the Faith given to it by Christ.

[@kensmith8152]

@@xenahx685: No, my problem is with the inconsistency of a narrative that believes it is the on church of Christ! The Roman Catholic Church didn’t come to be until the sixth century! In the first century you had various Christian churches each with their own bishop’s. These churches were located throughout the Middle East and Mediterranean, such as Antioch, Jerusalem, Corinth, Thessalonica, and Rome. The first bishops of Rome were Clement and Linus not Peter! When the Roman church became predominant with Constantine and later with gaining political power with Justinian that it religiously dominated and controlled the faith. In the mean time it developed the magisterium that allowed various pagan and Greek traditions to take hold in the church, to the point whereby the churches belief’s contradicts the Bible. One primary false doctrine was the Greek philosophy of Neoplatonism or the immortal soul. The Bible states that God alone is immortal! Because of the massive corruption of both the doctrines and the church itself, reformers such as Jon Huss, Martin Luther and John Whycliffe tried to get the church back on track! But the church wouldn’t consider it! God’s church according to revelation is those that keep the commandment’s of God and have the love of Jesus. According to Daniel the anti christ thinks to change God’s times and laws, blasphemy the most high and persecute the saints. All of which the RCC has done in it’s history. In the catechism, the second commandment was removed and the Tenth Commandment was split. The Spanish Inquisition had many Bible believers burnt at the stake, and the church through civil powers had both the Waldensians and the Heuganots wiped out.

[@Greg-n]

This is based on a misunderstanding of the new law which was Christ's fulfillment of the old law. In the old testament, the Israelites were slaves under the law, Paul makes this clear when he states in Romans 6: 14 that we are no longer "under law but under grace". Within the new law we receive the Holy Spirit, which inclines our will to 'the good' through Love (the good to which the will is naturally ordered). The Holy Spirit removes both the servitude whereby we (infected with sin), follow our passion and act contrary to the natural ordering of our will AND that slavery whereby we act in accordance with the law, but against our will, being the law's slave and not its friend. With Faith in Christ, it is not about "submission" to the "old law" through obligation, but rather a new heart given to us by God that allows us to live out His Love through Grace and lead us away from sinful attachments and seek true freedom in Him. Our actions, our works, become guided by Grace; we become "servants of God, we are "set free from sin" (Rom 6: 22), for freedom "Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" (Gal 5:1)

[@kensmith8152]

@@Greg-n:When reading the New Testament you need to ask within context which law is being talked about. The moral law(ie the Ten Commandments) or the mosaic law( the sacrificial and ceremonial laws) Christ fulfilled the latter and were nailed to the cross(Colossians 2:14). This is why we no longer sacrifice animals, keep Jewish ceremonial holidays or circumcise to be followers! The Ten Commandment’s were written by the hand of God on tablets of stone and God commanded Moses to neither add to or take away from them(Deuteronomy 4:2) These were given to show us what sin is, the mosaic law was given because they were sinners. In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Paul writes about the mystery of iniquity will come into the church. But what is iniquity? The Greek word is anomos or without law! Ask yourself what law is being talked about? James 2:9 says that if you break one aspect of the law you broke them all and goes on in the verse to talk about the Ten Commandment’s. Yes we’re saved by God’s grace through the blood of Christ, but we grow in our sanctification by obedience

[@Greg-n]

@@kensmith8152 The Mosaic Law is commonly divided into civil, ceremonial, and moral precepts; the ceremonial laws are not separate from the Mosaic law... ? I'm fully aware that Christ came to fulfill and not abolish the law (Matt 5); The prophet Ezekiel (36:26) describes "a new spirit I will put within you". If Christ was the fulfillment of the old law, and we are engrafted onto Christ as a member of His body (Rom. 11:24) it follows that through Grace we are moved freely to conform to His image, follow the precepts not as "obligations" against the "old man" but in coordination with the new spirit we have been gifted, as members of Christ's body. By Grace we 'will' to do good in accordance with His will, not as a divine "obligation" (like in the old law) but by a spiritual healing our wills become directed to their true good. Obedience takes on a new understanding under the new law, one in which we are truly made free.

[@jessebryant9233]

29:55 - How do you deal with that? Uhm... (1 John 2:1) Sinners cannot atone for their own sin (singular). (James 2:10) Death is the wage of sin, not SINS. (Romans 6:23a)

[@ConciseCabbage]

24:10 - This is offensive to a Protestant at best, and dishonest at worst. I would not recommend saying this in a conversation with a Protestant. "If you had the grace of God, you'd agree with me" lol. On a different note, the idea that Grace is a substance that can be absorbed is very strange. Protestants tend to view Grace as a growing in relationship / knowledge of the other. Entering into covenant with God is entering into a grace filled relationship (as opposed to getting your grace meter filled up with grace substance).

[@jstevo1349]

and protestants are wrong

[@deaconjohn7875]

Eastern Orthodox teach that Grace is participating in God's Divine energies, which is what St.Peter calls a partaking in the Divine Nature this causes us to grow more and more in the Divine Likeness, which is our original calling since creation. With this distinction included, the western distinction of justification as being in phases i.e initial, progressive, and final is helpful and the view that it is both an event and a process is also helpful. The unmerited event makes the process possible. Grace is uncreated and through grace we have communion with God, through the God Man Jesus Christ.

[@deaconjohn7875]

@C&M K Have you considered the claim of Eastern Orthodox to be the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ and Rome to actually be in schism and culpable for many distortions and innovations away from the Faith once for all delivered unto the saints? Perhaps Rome's teaching on what the Petrine office is may not be how the early Church understood it? Have you compared Orthodox ecclesiology to Roman ecclesiology? God bless.

[@deaconjohn7875]

@C&M K I think in the core of things we have the same doctrines but the problem, theologically, from our perspective as Orthodox, is that Rome has added many layers of scholastic speculations and made those into dogmas on top of the core Apostolic doctrine itself. It is these additions that divide us. We believe these are distortions or mutations of the faith.. Orthodoxy allows no additions or subtractions to the Faith...so the idea of the "development of dogma" is a big difference and basically encompasses all of our differences. On the positive side, We do have a lot of theological and moral truths taught in common. I do appreciate the contributions of Roman Catholics in sharing these truths with others. I find the Roman catholic works written on the subject of justification to be very helpful and that is what brought me to the KZbin page. I am very interested in this subject and in the subject of the atonement too. God bless.

[@mvwil]

@@deaconjohn7875 something I think that those in the East sometimes miss is that the Latin scholastic definitions are almost tautological-or at any rate, they are fully compatible with the eastern way of seeing/thinking of things. And there is historical precedent for this. I think at the council of Florence the Greeks had to be assured by the Latins that despite our iconography we do not insist that the fires of hell are literal physical fire. What the church obliges its members to believe may surprise you. I mean just the fact that there are Eastern Catholic Churches, and the Catholic Church encourages them to retain and hold on to all their traditions, including or even particularly their theology! That should say something about the Catholic Church’s conception of itself and its own dogma-in a word, there is great leeway in the expression of the same divine mysteries.

[@mvwil]

What is this about the Eastern Orthodox believing that baptism is unnecessary?

[@zachweaver5878]

18:21

[@jessebryant9233]

Okay, so what _IS_ the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Roman Catholic Church? "...what must I do, that I may be saved?" (Acts 16:30)

[@lukasg9031]

Believe and be baptized

[@jessebryant9233]

@@lukasg9031 Believe what and why?

[@lukasg9031]

@@jessebryant9233 believe the Gospel…

[@jessebryant9233]

@@lukasg9031 What IS the Gospel?

[@lukasg9031]

@@jessebryant9233 what type of trap are you trying to set up??? We all know what the Gospel is… it’s that Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man came as a humble baby through the Blessed Virgin Mary, performed miracles on earth, later dying on a tree for the sins of all humanity so that we may be reunited to God as Christ as our mediator. Christ would 3 days later resurrect from the dead proclaiming his victory over death.

[@Norbert-yk4jy]

Guys, don't you think a title like "what must I do to get closer to God" is more appealing? For a start, "what must I do to be saved" sounds selfish; it's also based on fear rather than desire.

[@stephenjohnson9632]

Chosen Skeptic Not exactly

[@stephenjohnson9632]

Chosen Skeptic Faith is only in “God’s works on the cross”? Faith is without repentance? That’s not what scripture teaches. For the sake of your soul, I hope you aren’t relying on that alone.

[@stephenjohnson9632]

Chosen Skeptic Ok, I don’t read the KJV anymore. What do you think Romans 11:29 is saying? What did Saint Paul mean in 1 Timothy 4:10 by “trust in the living Savior”? That sounds like more than just His works on the cross.

[@stephenjohnson9632]

Chosen Skeptic Belief in a what or belief in a who? Belief in an event or belief in a Person?

[@stephenjohnson9632]

Chosen Skeptic We don’t attempt to earn our salvation. We can’t. We cooperate with whom we trust, whom we follow, whom we give ourselves over to, whom we serve, and whom we love - Jesus Christ. It is He who saves us and leads us to heaven. It is by His works done for us, on us, in us, and through us that save, not our own works.