What Purity Culture Got Wrong | Guest: Dr. Lina AbuJamra | Ep 923

[@mktay2067]

While virginity doesn't equate purity just like heterosexual relationships don't always equate biblical. Only virginity before marriage is God's plan and only heterosexual marriages are God's plan for us. The push to erase shame for sinful behaviour in Christian circles is a very dangerous path. Should we address sin with love yup....but if you are a Christian That doesn't erase consequences for the past 🤷 purity cultures biggest fault was teaching that if you follow every step life will be perfect. Nope just like following Christ doesn't make life easy.

[@jsmiles1991]

Well said!

[@AllieBethStuckey]

Agree!

[@whowhatwherewhy1434]

Well, said…as I 44 year old Christian who hasn’t even been kissed, I feel that the church has underlying shame for people like me.. it’s as if they are assuming that I am being legalistic or that just because I am trying and have tried to make biblical choices that somehow that makes me into someon who is less loved by god and definitely less loved by the church because the church expects people to not be chaste and therefore they don’t know how to deal with people who actually persevere….they are not comfortable with that paradigm. Obviously, I would prefer to be married but was never pursued so I have to continue in the state that I am in

[@laurenshannon2703]

Well said.

[@marladaniel1789]

I admire u

[@laurenkwarren]

I have never understood the term “purity culture” (and I’m an older millennial so I supposedly grew up in it, and went to a small conservative Bible college) but I don’t understand how abstinence until marriage is not just a normal, Biblical, every generation, kind of thing to be teaching. I’m interested to listen to this…

[@joys.6347]

I didn't grow up with purity culture (and haven't finished the episode yet) but I've always heard that purity culture was more about teaching that if you sinned sexually, you were no longer "worthy" or something. So instead of repentance, grace, and redemption for those who've sinned, it was teaching that nobody would ever want you because you were ruined. And I think that there was a rather legalistic view of modesty too, and teaching girls that they were responsible for the sins of men. That's my understanding anyway, and I'm also curious as to what this episode will cover.

[@julesmum9781]

Yes

[@mktay2067]

The crazy thing about purity culture is it had extreme fanatics hijack it and from that got a bad rap but really having been raised in it myself with Josh Harris books and all it was not just women that were going to struggle or not be pure if they had sex it was men too but you don't hear that hardly ever. Elizabeth Elliot has a great purity book with a lot of similar themes and you never hear about it 🤷 I remember it made sense to me when it came to modest talk.as I would get ready for a dance with my friends and the entire conversation surrounded getting the guys to notice them and get attention for dressing sexy..... Girls do that and yup that is a sin to purposefully flaunt your body like that...but today we say that is shaming girls, it's not a great take.

[@joys.6347]

@@mktay2067 Is the book Passion and Purity? I read that one as young adult and enjoyed it. It's still helpful for me as a single woman in my later 20s.

[@mktay2067]

Joys....yes that's the one!!!

[@72586jejones]

My ex-boyfriend at the Christian college I went to was all about our purity as far as virginity goes, yet he looked at porn on the side and could not break his habit. He came down hard on people he knew had porn issues, but never was able to tame it himself and would often consider his virginity as a badge of righteousness. Needless to say, he judged those who the rumor mill had said had sex. That was a huge red flag. We broke up of course. I decided then I would rather have a husband who had slept with someone(s) and lived a truly repentant life than someone who paraded their virginity like a badge of honor yet continued to struggle with secret sin with no intention of changing. Purity encompasses many things and if we are being honest we all far short of perfection. We need to ask for forgiveness and remove the planks from our eyes before we judge others. Purity culture led to many seeing the speck in our brother's/sister's eyes without seeking the log in ours.

[@labujamra1]

exactly. that's a problem. and his porn problem won't resolve with marriage. sex in the context of marriage does not fix the problem of lust. only Jesus does!

[@dv9360]

How did you know he had a secret porn habit without repentance? Just wondering because I've seen that accusation weaponized without evidence against men post-breakup in order to justify the breakup and subsequent hooking up with men that sleep around instead. Like where it's used without evidence to establish a kind of moral relativism that helps people justify their own behavior.

[@72586jejones]

@@dv9360 cause he told me repeatedly over a everytime he watched porn and repentance is asking for forgiveness and turning away from your sin, yet no one new of it but me. I am mean, it's not that hard to figure out that, and using the term, "justifying a breakup" is stupid. As if someone would need to justify a breakup with their SO over something like porn. I would tell any girl to leave until he deals with the problem, cause porn is a heart issue that need brought to the Lord. I would tell any guy the same thing if they dated a girl with a porn addiction. Don't bring it into a marriage. Just dating someone with it wrecked my confidence pretty good.

[@nicolebotes8949]

"I decided then I would rather have a husband who had slept with someone(s) and lived a truly repentant life than someone who paraded their virginity like a badge of honor yet continued to struggle with secret sin with no intention of changing"-this is such a conviction. thank you for sharing!

[@spiritualoperator]

@labujamra1 You are a virgin, right? By what authority do you write/speak as an expert on this? Please don’t take this wrong, I am a fan of purity. My understanding is that you have never come under the covering and authority of a husband. I assume this is because no man has met your standard. None will. I’ll tell you right now Dr., taking your lead would be courageous even for the best of us men;). You are intimidating,; no offense. I will submit that one cannot “teach” on the subject of purity and marriage until they have been pure until marriage and beyond. #insight

[@janeylynn5934]

I’m a 46 year old virgin, and I don’t understand why so many Christians see this as being “impossible” or why so many seem to idolize sex. For me, the issue of discrimination against singles in the church is much harder to deal with than abstaining from sex.

[@magyarmainer4692]

Interesting. I have felt this before but not not sure if it was my church ( even if they didn't mean to make me or others feel that way) or my own insecurity.

[@debras3806]

Agreed! -42yo virgin

[@pepperpearl8944]

So true, everyone always asking “When are you gonna date?” Or “Are you dating,” or “When are you getting married?” It’s rude and insensitive to reduce people to married or unmarried status. Then they tell you “Your gonna die alone” or “Who’s gonna take care of you when you’re old?” if you aren’t dating or married. Men don’t get this treatment. I’m not single or unmarried because I want to be but it’s not what God has in store for me at this time.

[@janeylynn5934]

@@pepperpearl8944 Exactly. I tried to post an article about this, but I don't think youtube lets you post links to things. But if you google "singled out christena cleveland" a good article comes up that talks about exactly what you are saying. Also, Dani Treweek's book, "The Meaning of Singleness," talks a lot about this issue.

[@labujamra1]

you might enjoy my book on singleness called Thrive. happy to send you a copy if you want one.

[@Ana_Cecilia615]

I came to the Lord in my early 30s. I admire those of you who stay virgins for God and those of you who waited for marriage. I see so much beauty and light in your discipline. I would never wish for anyone to suffer the consequences of sexual sin the way I did. It's not worth it. Feeling cheap isn't sexy. Knowing your value is true beauty and what I pray my daughter will have. I'm going to read this book right now!

[@labujamra1]

i love your comment. thank you.

[@charlotteak]

I agree! I had the same experience, coming to Christ in my early 30s after I was married. My husband and I have had to go through a lot of obstacles with our history. I have 2 daughters and 1 son. I pray that they'll respect themselves and the Lord enough to make better choices.

[@letfreedomring7330]

These complaints about purity culture are new to me. I never heard any of this growing up. I was taught that we should stay pure because it's God's will for our lives, and that His will is best for us. I never thought it would magically make my marriage amazing.

[@labujamra1]

i'm curious your age group- are you a gen x'er or boomer? also, the issue in my opinion isn't even so much the purity culture, but the dissociation between what christian SAY we believe and what stats show we DO in our lives. read the book- it might explain my thoughts even better. thx for your comment!

[@letfreedomring7330]

​@@labujamra1I'm an older millennial.

[@labujamra1]

interesting. well, the purity culture has been part of the public sector evangelical conversation for the last several years - remember that joshua harris, the "leader" or forefront rep of it deconstructed and people have been talking about this quite a bit in recent times...@@letfreedomring7330

[@jcmustian]

I'm 35 and feel the same way. I feel like my parents had a pretty good approach to dating overall. ​@@letfreedomring7330

[@janelleg597]

That's a good thing, be blessed

[@michellefrench6617]

I’m a 50 year old Virgin! 🤗😂❤

[@amylynnhunt55]

54 here. I would rather be a married Mom, but that was not in God's plan for me. Have you ever been at an OBGYN appointment & told you need to see a psychiatrist because "obviously something is deeply wrong with you if you think waiting for sex is sane" ? That's been the most shocking and kind of sad response. This doctor needed for me to be crazy. Needless to say, I never went back. And had no exam. A pap smear is bad enough! That and as someone mentioned about how we're even looked at like weirdos even in church - there's no Singles Sunday School if you're not in your 20s at any church I've been to. It's very divided into kids, then College/20somethings, and classes with married couples. I never know where the can we just study the Bible class is. Hopefully the Church will see that we exist. Not even just for us but to encourage others.

[@southerngirl4076]

Meanwhile, I waited until I was 21 to have sex and I thought I was too old to be a virgin.

[@RachelNichols-writer]

It's horrible when even Christians don't believe you.

[@angietorok8389]

Fantastic interview. I'm saved from homosexuality and now married ten years, but there was still a message in this for me. Thank you for your toughtful contemplation of these things. It is an under addressed topic.

[@lizzieschuch2800]

🙌

[@lynne1550]

I am hearing this from so many women who say how terrible the purity culture was. I am so thankful that wasn’t part of my upbringing, but I feel like they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. God command us to be sexually pure. That hasn’t changed.thoughts and feelings don’t change that.

[@Mrs.WordSmith.GEN_8zero]

Agreed. But I also hear ya . The baby out with the bathwater in this ( I believe) is the under acknowledged realization that the American churches Have seriously compromised themselves in reference to cultivating any worthwhile biblical purity bc they’ve focused themselves so much on being accepted by culture INSTEAD of being Influencial on culture. Instead of setting themselves apart they’ve compromised themselves on blending in. Their salt has lost its effectiveness bc of the compromise~in~action. The fruit of that reality is that the culture Has INFLUENCED more of the pulpits & its sanctuary doors instead of the culture BEING INFLUENCED BY the pulpits AND its sanctuary doors = the Christians that fill the sanctuaries.

[@dcarr-kr7hk]

"God command us to be sexually pure. That hasn’t changed thoughts and feelings don’t change that." Hear! Hear! 👏👏👏👏

[@rhondapatterson1]

I am so tired of everyone giving every concept, life choice, sin, thought and action a cool name! Purity Culture, Christian Nationalism, Deconstruction, etc….STOP IT! Because Purity Culture is nuanced so it is not the same for any two people. Christian Nationalism is a way to pigeonhole Christian conservatives into a gaslit homegrown terrorist group, deconstruction is someone walking away from their faith and people do that in all different manners, while some have agendas, many do not. Why does everything need a trendy name that NO ONE fully understands EXCEPT for maybe the person that coined it. I’m old! I hate all this!

[@jeanninemcnair8936]

I’m 68 I totally agree also You said if beautifully

[@needlegirlhaystackworld920]

Bingo!!!!

[@flowerpower3618]

This!

[@stetsonscott8209]

It can be annoying. It happens because of search engine optimization dynamics and how memetic humans are. It's also part of dealing with anything; having a name conferrs an identity, which is a container for attributes. It won't stop, so it might bring you more peace to accept it.

[@Pro-Christ]

THISSSSS. I am a 20 yr old virgin, but in my heart and in my mind I wasn’t for a long time. I was addicted to p*orn for 10+ years. A LOT of people in my generation think this way. I even have to remind myself that I may never get married and that’s okay.I hope your message reaches many ears. I still have sinful thoughts, BUT we make it an effort that because of Gods grace we want to live in His ways not because of what He can give us. He has already given us EVERYTHING. He gave us His Son. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@tsrocks2029]

Bruh why are kids watching porn at 8 years old? Your parents were really Christian yet never supervised your technology usage ?

[@ashlieleavelle]

You will never regret obeying God. Sexual sin before marriage brings so many unwanted consequences. I very much enjoyed this topic. Purity should be taught. Abstinence is not impossible.

[@karenmartin4221]

I think a distinction need to be made between purity & “purity culture.”

[@chiukid]

If you read the Bible then it is easier to not be fooled by stuff like this. The ultimate issue was biblical illiteracy.

[@pepperpearl8944]

I agree 💯 I also think some people are just culturally Christians. Meaning the go to church at Christmas and Easter time and think that makes them a Christian. Like you say, their not reading their Bibles and if the don’t read it then they won’t know God.

[@michellelangston119]

Love this topic! 💖 I came to Christ in 2012 ( my mid-20s) and I just knew I didn’t want to keep living the way I had been. Each serious relationship that ended in breakup just literally broke me because I gave something away that was meant for marriage. I did NOT have a perfect walk by any means, but I met a Christian man who respected this concept and we waited until marriage. I truly thank God for that because neither of us were virgins, and we were tempted at times (and I definitely fantasized at times, not going to lie 🫢). But if you can just light-heartedly set some boundaries and agree with your partner that you’re not going to have sex before marriage, it’s easier to hold hold each other accountable. Not necessarily ‘easy’ but ‘easier’. ❤️

[@lindasteinbrenner8065]

Thanks so much for having Lina on! I hear her many times on the Moody Bible radio broadcast. She is so positive and up beat! One of the beautiful people out of Chicago! ❤❤❤

[@gracereece2097]

I grew up in purity culture, and over the last six years or so, I've had to define for myself what my convictions are, and I very quickly realized that there were major issues with some of the things that "purity culture" taught me, but I knew deep down that the Bible is ALWAYS right and the Bible clearly teaches purity (or holiness) in both the Old Testament and New Testament.

[@karenmartin4221]

I think a distinction needs to Nobel made between purity and “purity culture.”

[@GratiaPrima_]

She’s so right, more sexual sins outside of gay and porn need to be talked about. I’ve been victim. I consumed porn literature. I would love to help others with being free of that.

[@happyhomeinholland]

Surely not a victim of any abuse I hope? I don't think you can be victim of your own sins and it's consequences

[@annb9029]

There’s a whole fifty shades of grey generation that is not talked about women struggle with lust to

[@nicolemarie4216]

@@annb9029absolutely. That kind of literature had a huge impact on my views on sex. Still working on fixing my perspective.

[@GratiaPrima_]

@@happyhomeinholland I appreciate the concern, but no not that!

[@gingerbryan2920]

Some of these comments concern me as far as what the Lord (in His Word) calls us to and what i think we Christian’s prefer thinking. Use of the word ‘shame’ and ‘remorse’. How long are you suggesting others should live in shame and feel remorse? I have lived the forgiveness of the Lord, which means moving on by studying His Word and not living bound to the past. satan is always nearby to guilt and shame us, causing us to live in remorse and not moving forward in a walk with the Lord. And Christian’s are great at doing this to others as well. Lamentations 3:22,23 says because of the Lords great love we are not consumed, for His compassions never fail. They are new every morning, great is His faithfulness.’ If an Almighty, all Holy God can do this for us sinners, how much more should we pass this on to each other. It is not our right to keep it to ourselves as though we are superior. Jesus said we would be known as His disciples by our love (John 13:34 and 35, Matt 5:44,45). John 15:8 Jesus says we should be known by our fruit (love, joy, peace, patience….). I feel much of the church thinks we should be known for our judgment. Paul told the Corinthians they were to forgive and comfort the offender (who had repented). It is not for us to bring consequences on others or to rejoice in any consequences. We need to watch our own hearts and minds that we don’t become proud and arrogant - another major problem in the church. Conveniently forgetting our own sin and our need for the blood of Jesus to cover us. What a fall that will be. 1 Samuel 15:23 arrogance is like the evil of idolatry. I remind myself of these things constantly. I know my sins. They are many. I remember them not to shame myself or live in remorse, but to keep myself from being ‘puffed up’ and thinking highly of myself. I rely on Gods mercies daily and pass them on gratefully. May we walk in the love of the Lord and share His beautiful news of forgiveness and mercy to all others. ❤

[@labujamra1]

Praise God for his mercy and grace! I am hugely in favor of leaving shame at the cross! Jesus indeed paid it all. Ur spot on.

[@mktay2067]

You are missing the point that the sin itself has shame which the Christian community in whole is trying to dismiss as the sin is happening. We have to stop pretending sin isn't sin in today's world. Also while Jesus does remove our sins as far as the East is from the West for us so we can be in heaven with him, we don't ever escape past consequences here in earth for what we have done. That is just reality.

[@STak-ju7gx]

​@@mktay2067actually it is false to claim we never escape consequences on earth. God forgives and forgets. Even apostle Paul who was an actual murderer was forgiven and his sins forgotten. There is no reference or indication in his life and ministry that he was facing any consequences for his actions. Instead, he stood as a testimony of God forgiveness and forgetting of sins to take such a vile person and produce such a wonderful person. Now, biblically, there are categories to sins and his sins are dealt with. If your sin has an impact on others or offends others, you are to apologize, seek forgiveness, and make restitutions within the reasonable or lawful bounds. Ex. You steal, you return the item or pay for it if the other party demands it. You kill, you face the legal consequences, you have a child, be a responsible parent. Etc. With other victimless sins or ones where it's impossible to make make restitution, it's sufficient to deal with it directly with the Lord and the Lord forgives and forgets. Any other things is life happening and satan taking your unbelief to Rob you of your freedom in Christ. 😊

[@adriana12995]

As a viR gin woman, I have to say that this path is not the easiest to take. I don’t think I am perfect but taking this path has certainly been a challenge in our modern times in which even the churches encourage silly things such as being a born again viR gin. Removing shame and pretending that the past can be erased is how people have been able to do whatever they want without any remorse. After all, they can just choose to become “pure” later in life, right? Purity culture is often times a term used by liberals who are against the idea of se X ual purity. They are against any suggestion of abstinence until marriage and will directly say that such thing is actually wrong and that people should “experiment” before they get married and that there’s nothing wrong with that. They will even say that viR ginity doesn’t exist and that it’s a social construct. This is all demonic progressive language. Society has gone so far off the rails that now even churches are afraid to even suggest waiting until marriage. We can turn to God at any age and at any time but the consequences of our actions will remain. I would much rather encourage a Biblical purity culture than the disgusting hookup culture than is the norm today. We need to encourage more se Xual purity, not less. To be a Christian is to be radical, compromises that bend the truth of God is evil.

[@rickybobby9797]

It’s not just about “purity” for women but their sexual market value (to men). Every time. Women has sex with a different man she lowers her sexual market value-hence the propensity of women to lie about their sexual history. Every women (or most anyway) knows that men prefer virgins over “experienced” women. Not to mention that studies now indicating that a man’s sperm will release its DNA inside a woman’s body and stay there permanently-possibly influencing future pregnancy (for a future/different sexual partner). Just look at the importance that God placed on Marry being a virgin. He didn’t want that birth being influenced by any other man’s DNA. That same preference exists in every human father. If a woman actually cares about her future husband then she will abstain from sex for him and the benefits to her future progeny. And this is why families were so involved with spousal selection-it wasn’t about “romantic love” as we define it today. It was about actual love which is difficult.

[@labujamra1]

correct. i agree with you whole heartedly.

[@Ana_Cecilia615]

I completely agree. Me, many friends and acquaintances have all very clearly suffered consequences from fornication and pre-marital sex. It is very obvious that it hurts us all. I think we have enough examples of it around us that remaining a virgin should seem like a delight and a beautiful alternative to the current perverted narratives flashed everywhere human eyes can see.

[@dv9360]

@@rickybobby9797 One thing I've noticed recently in some Christmas things now is how the idea of Mary as a pregnant, unwed mother is used to make her situation relatable to that of other pregnant, unwed mothers. Like "Mary was unjustly scandalized for being pregnant and unwed and so are you." It seems to ignore the important distinction that Mary had not sinned and was not pregnant by a man though.

[@lt7378]

I’m not sure men want virgins. I got dumped by the first guy I dated when he found out I was a virgin who had no boyfriends in my past. It was a turn off I guess. Said I was “too young and too innocent”, although he was only 2 years older than me.

[@TheAmieGTV]

think our problem is we often view purity as a ‘badge’ or something that we either have, or don’t have. But purity is not a destination it’s a DAILY practice. I multiple sexual partners before I got saved, and praise God, I don’t struggle with lust anymore. However, one Christian told me “once you’ve lost your purity you can’t get it back” - I was a new believer so this sent me into a really dark depressive spiral. I believed I was “impure/damaged goods”for life. But that is a LIE straight from hell. Seeing purity as virgin/not a virgin is straight up unbiblical. There are many lustful virgins, and many non-virgins who now walk in sexual purity. Man looks at appearances but God looks at the heart. I know I walk in sexual purity - regardless of my past as an unbeliever . I am a new creation 😊 1 John 1:9-10 - “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Galatians 5:16-26 - “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” God is merciful & holy - let’s focus on honouring Him with our bodies 😊🙏❤️

[@lizzieschuch2800]

Thank you for acknowledging therapy is way too expensive for many Americans. Not to mention the trouble of finding a discerning christian therapist.

[@aloe704]

*All of you thought she was speaking really fast, meanwhile I'm watching this in 2x speed lol*

[@labujamra1]

that made me lol

[@SignsForSustenance]

I had to put this on .75x haha it was giving me anxiety otherwise haha

[@kadijahduarte]

57:47 Yep. I found myself in a dilemma of same-sex attraction until I started working on getting free from pornography. I slipped up with it about a month or two ago, so it's still a temptation now and then, but I now understand and know that I'm definitely not gay.

[@labujamra1]

Good on you!

[@kadijahduarte]

@@labujamra1 Thank you, lovely Lina! Great interview and wisdom from you. God bless you! 💖

[@nadiacoffey2609]

I recently returned to church and my Christian faith. I have to say that I found no cohesive community there. They were not very welcoming initially. I’ve also noticed very few people attending church of my generation or younger. It is treated as a failure of society, but it is not. It is a failure of the church and it’s leadership and I think we need to acknowledge that.

[@labujamra1]

Ur correct. We have a church problem in the USA - praying for revival

[@bree1984shock]

Somethings very off here, with all due respect. Engaged 2 times and walked away from both of them after agreeing to the engagements, then became a part of leadership in 2 churches who fell apart due to abuse of power. The discernment seems to be lacking in her life. For one, marrying someone isn't about finding the only person who is "perfect" for you but finding a person who is on the same page spiritually and building a life together. She is absolutely right that there is more to purity than not having sex and a cursory reading of scripture will absolutely tell you that, but society definitely doesn't want to deal with that... then when you look this woman up and see her reviews from her patients you see she's been completely condesending, talks over and and acts unloving toward them.. none of this leaves me feeling like she's got it figured out at all and may not be the best person to take advice from.

[@KatEL777]

Agree. I actually had a real problem following her points and find her very hard to listen to. I never thought marriage would be perfect. Purity is part of what the Bible teaches and should be promoted by Christians.

[@catherine8262]

She sounds totally unhinged. I wonder how many young people she has led astray.

[@brandikent365]

I agree as well

[@MarinaPier77]

Thank you for having Dr. Lina on, this was a very encoraging chat.

[@lorysipel6823]

Only half way through and I am amazed! Please Allie, invite her back for part 2! What a great interview. I'm definitely buying her book. Sharing with everyone!

[@labujamra1]

aw thank you!

[@irinas6258]

Absolutely loved this episode. So much to ponder about and such relevant topics! Well done everyone! I read her book Don't Tell Anyone You're Reading This together with my book club, and for the first time in our lives we were comfortable to talk openly about our struggles. Her book is very relatable and a must read!

[@shawnaweesner3759]

Thank you so much for letting others know about how good the book is.

[@paulajames6149]

Dr Lina is a talker even though she says she is an introvert. Love this convo. Good stuff to talk with my teens.

[@whowhatwherewhy1434]

Being an introvert doesn’t preclude talking a lot…it just means that after you are done talking, you have to retreat away from people to refuel. I am an introvert and love talking…I love being around people…but then I love having a break from them too. 😊

[@labujamra1]

true! @@whowhatwherewhy1434

[@meganboesen3219]

I am an introvert, and when I speak about something I’m passionate about, I talk at this pace too. Then I have to go and sleep my socializing off. 😂😂😂

[@lt7378]

@@meganboesen3219That is SO me too! The hard part is when I play back my conversation in my brain asking myself why did I say all that and obsessing what do they think about me?

[@meganboesen3219]

@@lt7378 Same! 😂😭😂

[@mommymoves6365]

This is an excellent conversation. As a 50 year old married woman who came to Christ in my mid twenties living in Hermosa Beach I can't tell you the Whiplash I felt for becoming born again, to abstaining but also commiting sexual sin in my heart. I also really appreciate you touching on the topic of sex in marriage bc when you age, it changes and having sex as an idol and "not being happy" cuz you're not 20 anymore makes the Porn consuming industry what it is today. Thank you for your vulnerability and I look forward to your book. And to all you folks who need it slower, the Lebanese talk fast because their brains think faster! My good friend is one. 😊

[@labujamra1]

haha it's true- if you know one leb you know them all. everyone tells me we sound alike, and i can spot a lebanese american from the first letter they utter! very kind of you to say that. you should see when we talk in arabic!!

[@mommymoves6365]

​@@labujamra1oh my yes, the Arabic. She lived with me for awhile and she would call family and it sounded like she was always arguing but it's the way. Amazing people group and I loved the food too.

[@labujamra1]

It’s true we always sound mad about something but we’re just usually sharing recipes or somethihg haha

[@charliedontsurf334]

Thank you for pointing out how purity culture was a form of prosperity gospel.

[@sharoncorrell9801]

The idolization of sex started with Rousseau and Freud and has infested the church. It is the elevation of self over Christ and temporal pleasure over eternal reward. Sadly, It has brought so many Christians into spiritual and even demonic bondage. I'm old enough to have missed the "purity culture." And I never felt I had a gift of singleness - I experienced many years of loneliness and frustration. To me living in obedience and holiness (as much as possible) was always just about honoring Christ and being a person of integrity. -- 63-year-old virgin :-)

[@RachelNichols-writer]

I recommend The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom. She never married but submitted to the Lord and He did great things and saved many lives and souls through her. God can use us in any walk of life.

[@deannachapman5411]

Couldn't agree more about Redeeming Love. All the girls were reading it so I asked to read it and my categorization of it is, "Christian porn". None of the girls were happy to hear that. No more was i to say it.😢

[@ClaraBowInThisLight]

The amount of married Christian men I know who have gotten caught stepping out on their wives. 😅 let’s stop pretending marriage is the end all/be all for love and respect in a relationship. God knows your journey. Many woman (and men) “lost” their virginity before they wanted to due to SA or trauma. There’s ZERO place in the Bible in red letters where Jesus says “the only people I will accept in the door are virgins.” Stop throwing this shit out there. You don’t have to be “good enough” for Jesus. Following him makes you more than enough.

[@shawnaweesner3759]

Yes, we are saved by His grace.

[@lisafeck1537]

I would have really seriously considered staying a virgin, pure, whatever, if anyone had even explained the choice was God honoring. I believe it would have changed my life at 16, and its trajectory drastically. I pray little boys and girls, youth, young men and women start getting this message. Most importantly this message without the prosperity aspect of choosing to protect themselves for marriage.

[@tromboneman4517]

You may not be a virgin but you can absolutely still be pure. If you’re in Christ, your sins are washed clean. That’s not an excuse to keep living in them, but it is a reason to rejoice and do better!

[@Shiboys]

My husband is Christian Lebanese ❤

[@labujamra1]

yay!

[@pinkva23]

I couldn’t sleep in the same bed as my ex husband. He really did snore, and wouldn’t help me with the baby. So I slept in the guest bedroom to try and get sleep. I think having two separate beds actually can help relationships. Sleep is so important. I dont see why we need the person waking us up every hour because…why?

[@labujamra1]

while i certainly don't think it's sinful to sleep in separate rooms, i do think there is a oneness in marriage that is needed. sleeping together in the same bed does increase intimacy, which i believe is needed in marriage. i think the whole concept of marriage in the Biblical sense is self giving, not so much about what we get out of it but sacrificing self for the sake of the other. i'm sure many will disagree with me on this, but there you have it ;)

[@nicolemarie4216]

@@labujamra1completely agree. My husband snores and I’m the world’s lightest sleeper. I started sleeping in another room and we really started growing apart. It was strange. I missed him being next to me. We often would have conversations before bed. So I moved back in lol

[@jesserochon3103]

My gramma and grampa slept in separate rooms their entire marriage. And it worked. Same thing… his snoring was so bad and could never be fixed after trying everything that she was unable to sleep and had a psychotic break due to deprivation. Sometimes couples have to sleep in separate rooms. And that’s fine.

[@Essentialoils4ujess-weagle]

I’m a non believer. But I’ve spent sometime in family court being supportive to a family member. There’s a reason people shouldn’t be causal about who they sleep with! The kids born from unplanned pregnancy to single parents pay a high price.

[@joonbugist]

I feel like what’s missing from this discussion is that Christianity has failed (as has society at large) to alter the overwhelming stigma against single people. Anyone who has been single for any length of time can speak to this. There are spoken and unspoken judgments cast that if you’re single, you must not be “good enough” to attract a partner. It strikes at the core of many peoples’ sense of self worth and value. “Are you dating yet? You must be lonely. I don’t know how you do it. You’ll meet someone someday”. All these comments, while potentially well intentioned, can be very devastating for the recipient. Our whole society is framed around couples. For instance, the stigma of being “an old maid” has been with us for centuries. As a single person (for a long time) I can personally attest that there is tremendous shame involved. Sadly, the church has done nothing to dispel this view and, quite possibly, has reinforced it.

[@labujamra1]

in many ways the church leads the pack on this approach! but praise God we know Jesus was single so we're in good company.

[@dcarr-kr7hk]

"Sadly, the church has done nothing to dispel this view and, quite possibly, has reinforced it." Yes but in time it is the Holy Spirit who defines you! That seems to be what is missing in your comment. (And yes. I am single who isn't struggling with shame.) It is the Spirit of The Living God who defines us! Hopefully more singles will accept that in time.

[@MonicaD444]

Such a great conversation! Thank you for sharing! As a single, divorced 50 year old woman, this is a topic I don’t hear to much about for my age group.

[@RaceSheetsDFS]

My wife and I (both virgins when we met) dated for roughly four years and remained celibate until we exchanged vows. The absolute key for any couple that wants to protect their chastity is to establish clear boundaries and never put themselves in situations where those boundaries can be crossed.

[@Mommybecca9804]

@RaceSheetsDFS💯🎯

[@EllieRose-pe7mu]

What a fantastic interview!! Thank you, both! I learned so much from this conversation. As the Body of Christ, we NEED this. Let's all be bolder in addressing these things.

[@dliz325]

Purity culture’s biggest flaw was not talking about sex the way God intended for it to be. Making sex a dirty thing to stay away from until you get married is saying something beautiful that God made is dirty until it’s time. Well there isn’t a magic fix in your brain and view on sex when you get married. That is the biggest flaw in purity culture. It’s a good thing to stay pure until marriage. That is how God intended for it to be.

[@labujamra1]

yeah there is that too. good points!

[@mktay2067]

How is it wrong for sex to be called dirty before marriage? It is just as dirty if you have an affair when married 🤷 I mean that makes sense to me. ........In marriage covenant sex is beautiful outside that defiled.

[@r.walker7986]

the bible does not give a lot of details about sex, 9 times out of 10 "the way God intended" boils down to the personal beliefs and issues of whomever the architect of the dogma is... then the whole idea of purity needs to0 be scrapped, its not real, you just did not have sex, its literally gone in an instant and nothing changes, it just becomes something you have done....

[@labujamra1]

I disagree- the Bible is packed with Gods thoughts on sex and sexuality and singleness and marriage.

[@dliz325]

@@mktay2067 sex in it and of itself isn’t dirty. God created sex. Can it be misused for evil? Of course, like anything else that is good that gets twisted and used for evil. But sex isn’t dirty. Purity culture avoids the conversation of sex all together (even the good) and deems it evil until you get married.

[@sacredrose5477]

I guess I just thought purity culture was about living a pure life. I didn’t think God had to give you anything in return

[@AbbaJoy1]

I've seen with the purity "culture," (not the Biblical teaching of purity) is that includes many other problematic ideas: the father chooses the husband, the wife submits even if the husband is wrong, abusive, unfaithful, or commits incest. And it is the wife's fault. If he sins, she did something wrong to cause him to sin, and if he doesn't repent, it's because she didn't fast and pray enough to patch the holes (his sins) in the umbrella (his authority.) It really has warped the thinking of a couple generations of dedicated Christians.

[@CatholicTraditional]

Or to make matters worse…the bride’s dad won’t pay if she chooses the wrong guy. Such arranged marriages are not allowed in Catholicism per the Council of Trent.

[@RCGWho]

I highly doubt anyone, or at least few people, taught all those extremes.

[@lizzieschuch2800]

Isaiah (God takes his wife) and Hosea (given an adulterous wife on purpose), Jeremiah, and the sexual assault victims Bathsheba, Tamar, & Dinah, Daniel [eunuch of the king] & Job & Naomi are all good examples of Christians/believers who did not get the marriage remaining intact-happily ever after, loving nuclear family. Bad things/ tribulation happen to those who are walking in obedience or who did nothing to deserve the transgression of another (like r*pe). Peter's wife loses him and so do other apostle's wives eventually. It is a super hard lesson to learn that God has the right to tell whatever story He wants with your life, but I think it would be easier if we kept Disney/hallmark/Netflix/hulu/most TV & ofc porn away from our kids. I grew up with all of the above and only His Word/the Bible + life's disappointment can renew your mind of the fairytales & brainwashing

[@lizzieschuch2800]

Forgot to say, I didn't grow up in evangelical protestant circles so I had little to no exposure to "purity culture". I would attribute my own idolatry to growing up in the secular world where sex/marriage is put on a pedestal in all visual media & radio songs.

[@kassi4837]

Exactly. 👍🏻 🎉

[@doreencaputo2942]

24:31 I think of Jesus with the Samaritan woman talking about her improper relationships. He made it clear that she was sinning.

[@Me-hf4ii]

And yet he “proposes” to her anyway.

[@doreencaputo2942]

@@Me-hf4ii where are you getting this information from?

[@Me-hf4ii]

@@doreencaputo2942She is shunned by her own people. But she is not shunned by Him. He comes to her and asks her for a drink. She has no cup to offer him. But he says “if you knew what God offers, and who it is who asks you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living waters.” He offers her salvation and eternal life, living waters that will leave her never thirsting again.. in Hebrew marriage forms, the man offers the woman a cup to drink from as a sign of their marriage covenant. Many scholars over the centuries have picked up on this similarities between this tradition and Jesus’s encounter with the woman at the well. She, in her sin, saw who he was - and she dropped everything in faith - and forgiven - to alert all of Samaria that the Messiah had come. In that moment, her sin was washed away, and she became new in Messiah. Something 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 reiterates. The flesh profits nothing - spirit and truth are everything.

[@ClaireCopeland-n6y]

That is biblical ignorance

[@makeitcount179]

"While you have the Light, believe in the light, in order that you may become children of Light." Jesus said (jn 12:36)

[@makeitcount179]

@UCZmexnutYKJLMSm1QNeBztw I m at 1st Baptist in Calgary. I first heard you debate George Farmer. I agree with every point of doctrine that you defended ...so I just joined your team in the live chat and have been pretty regular. This past week I have been busy with many things. Notwithstanding, I will continue to chat when I can.

[@tinks6514]

so many churches teach against the prosperity gospel yet they buy into it.... I shouted yes when she said this. I once heard a famous pastor say he never hires people to his staff that haven't been through a period of immense sorrow and suffering because he has found most people who haven't to be smug. I have found this to be so true, especially among young Christians whether they admit it or not if their lives are full and free of significant problems they think it is because they are "doing it right". Specifically young Christian parents. I am not saying proper Christian guidance is not a huge force in raising kids, it definitely is. I am saying to any young parent who would be quick to criticize any other parents over kids choices and outcomes. If you have children you are living in a glass house.

[@abemontes2518]

Great topic. I'm a married man, and i deeply repented for my past sexual experiences. If there is something I would love to go to the past and undo is to never have engaged or committed fornication. That being said, not everyone is called to be single. The Bible teaches this in 1 Corinthians 7 but also Christ Himself said that not everyone is capable of receiving such a gift, to be celibate. God said in the beginning that it was not good for man to be alone so He made a woman. Also marriage is not meant to be celibate that would be an oxymoron, how can you expect to be married and deny your spouse conjugal rights. It's there in the Scriptures. If someone thinks that a spouse is carnal because he/she wants to have sex then the fact is that the carnal one is the one denying the act and not the other. Of course, as long as either spouse is physically able to do it or not feeling ill or understandably tired etc... but many people can use these things as excuses to deny sex to each other. We're not beasts. Before Christ, I did watch porn. I was exposed to porn at age 10 and it is devastating. Even now after Christ saved me from a life of sin, I still have sexual thoughts, images of the past, temptations etc..., but i thank God that I have not yielded to looking at porn for more than 23+ years. I also thank God that both my wife and i have been faithful to each other since we married 17 years ago. That is an accomplishment by today's standards.

[@terrybain828]

Somehow, I thankfully missed the memo that the purity culture held out promises for a better sexual life, marriage or anything else in this life. I thought it was about living a holy life to honour God and to experience intimacy with Him. I was physically a virgin when I got married, but my heart was not sexually pure according to His Word. My heart was divided between pleasing Him and pleasing myself and my fiancée. I repented and experienced God's forgiveness decades ago. However it is only now, after listening to this interview that God showed me how much I had hurt Him. I had repented of my sin, but not what it had done to my relationship with God. I now repent in a much deeper way for how I hurt my Lord. I wish I could go back and do better, but all I can really do is accept His grace and forgiveness and be thankful that He has washed me clean with His own precious blood and that I now have that intimacy with God restored. I never want to hurt Jesus like that again.

[@labujamra1]

I love Gods grace. It’s ours daily if we receive it. Love hearing ur story.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

You didn't do anything wrong though. It sounds like you're dealing w/ scrupulousity. You did everything right. You waited for marriage, got married and had sex w/in a holy union, sanctified by God, as it should be. Wanting to have that a good and pleasing relationship for your husband and yourself is the ultimate goal.

[@terrybain828]

Without going into more detail, I assure you that I am not dealing with scrupulosity. My guilt is well-grounded in scripture. You don't have to perform the sex act to be guilty of sexual sin. Doing or even dwelling on things that arouse desires that cannot be fulfilled in righteousness is sin. Sin is not just actions, but is the condition of our hearts according to Jesus. Matthew 5:21-30 Whenever our loyalty to Jesus is usurped by our desires for self-gratification, we are in need of repentance and restoration.@@saintejeannedarc9460

[@cynthiafisher9907]

@@saintejeannedarc9460No, that’s the whole point. That is not the ultimate goal, an intimate, obedient relationship with Jesus is the ultimate goal!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@cynthiafisher9907 I'm talking about marriage. Having an intimate relationship w/ God the ultimate for every believer. Marriage is about the husband and wife too. I mentioned God in their marriage. Sounds like you're doing some pious virtue signaling.

[@reys7510]

Stay away from sexual immorality, be holy. That covers everything and no need to go into these tangents.

[@lilmamacpa3062]

What is sexual immorality?

[@Me-hf4ii]

What do we do with those that didn’t know Christ before they became “impure” Cast them out and treat them like irredeemable lepers unworthy of love and marriage?

[@amylynnhunt55]

​@@Me-hf4iiNo one said that. Not even close. It's why I was worried about telling the little part of my story. I'm not the Holy Spirit of you.

[@labujamra1]

then why do you think the church statistics on sexual immorality tell a sad sad story of failure> it's not as black and white easy peasy as you make it sound. while in principle you might have a point, we need help in the living! thank GOd for grace!

[@RCGWho]

​@labujamra1 Sexual immorality is rampant because "trying to be good" doesn't work. We have to be deeply in love with God and His Word, fear Him, and want every day to hear "well done". Instead, we love super sexualized music, sexy clothes, feminism, porn, trashy books, and movies. Then we wonder why we fall. Garbage in, garbage out. (Also, extended dating, as in years, is rarely going to result in purity.)

[@micheletisdale7467]

Thank you, Allie, for introducing me to this amazing woman 😊

[@angietorok8389]

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but not long ago, I watched a video explaining how watching porn tends to lead to homosexual behavior. It was very interesting.

[@labujamra1]

there is actually a lot of research on this especially in women.

[@RCGWho]

Someone mentioned in a comment I saw on youtube that porn is causing bisexuality. And I believe it's true. Typical porn used to be naked, individual women in Playboy. Now, it's live action online. People are watching 2 or more people have sex. It's eroticizing both genders. It's rewiring brains to lust both genders.

[@phos73]

Such an excellent conversation that raises so many important points. I need to listen to this several times and send it to many of my Christian friends of ALL ages (35-80!!). Thanks you both and praise God for everything!

[@mthoodstyle]

I’m 50 gen x’er that came to Christ recently. We were wild kids and grew up fast. No dad in my life. I turned things around and got married at 32 and had my first child at 35 and second at 38. We teach our kids to respect themselves, their bodies, biology, their future partners bodies and wait till marriage because sex comes with major risks and rewards. You need to respect it. But we advise to marry young. Be discerning find a principled partner you are attracted to and take the plunge! Don’t let society scare you. Family is where it’s at! Our daughter has a good head on her shoulders. She’ll do great. But telling our girls to postpone marriage and family is wrong imo. A career won’t give you grandchildren.

[@mythsandlegends100]

I enjoyed this conversation, agreed with the insights, and found it encouraging to hear a topic I relate to discussed - thank you! 😊

[@lindamurphy3481]

I am a 60y/o virgin and have struggled with feeling shame over it, even though I know it is pleasing to God. Lina's boldness and peace with her "situation" blessed, comforted and encouraged me. @janelynn5934, I've also experienced other Christians who seem to see it as being impossible to have joy and be enjoying life w/o sex. It is very sad to me. Lina, you are so right when you say that sex is an idol in the U.S. (yes, and probably many other countries). This was a great interview!

[@sharoncorrell9801]

@lindamurphy3481 I experienced that "shame" thing too, until one day I bought it to God and he led me to Psalm 24:3-4. I realized that we can chase the idols and lies of the world, or stand in right relationship with God. We can't really have both.

[@lindamurphy3481]

Oh amen! Thank you @@sharoncorrell9801!

[@southerngirl4076]

Damn girl, 60?

[@angietorok8389]

I struggle with the concept of marriage as a legal bond. I havent fleshed out my thoughts on this entirely, and I take into considerarion the fact that God is the originator of law (though the relationship of God's law to that of Man is another whole topic). Still, I'm very bothered by the idea that an institution originally ordained by God seems to have been usurped by the State.

[@hanng1242]

One major problem is that it is referred to as "purity" rather than "chastity." The former suggests some sort of legal status, whereas the latter implies a certain state of mind. We can see this from the examples brought up in the video about people who claim "virginity" even though they have engaged in sexual acts that did not involve genital intercourse; it is clear that this version of "purity" has to do with bodily pollution rather than a purity of heart. Remember, it is the pure of heart who will see God, not those who maintained some sort of ritual purity in the manner of the Jews. Without purity of heart, virginity becomes a hoop that one jumps though or some onerous task that one endures for a reward rather than ascesis for the purpose of training one to ignore earthly good things that distract from one's relationship with God. Marriage then becomes an idol; it becomes the payment due to one for the labor of obeying some regulation. It is seen as the end in itself rather than the method of sanctification provided by God for those who cannot be, as St. Paul says, "eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom." Depending on the study, the divorce rate for Evangelical and/or "born again" Christians is either no different from, or slightly higher than, the general population. I submit that this is because Evangelicals often see marriage similarly to the general population and become disappointed when married life fails to be ideal. Just many modern Westerners believe that marriage is the realization of a couples "love" (whatever they mean by that), those involved in "purity culture" see a perfect marriage as something caused by remaining "pure" up to the marriage. Neither understand that the purpose of marriage, at least as far as the couple, qua couple (as opposed to as part of a family with children), is concerned is to *teach* them to love each other via struggling with each other. It seems to me that part of the problem is that Evangelicals have no tradition of monasticism - nay, have *rejected* the monastic tradition. Having rejected the eschatological witness of those who have radically abandoned the world for a radical pilgrimage to the Kingdom, is it a surprise then that Evangelical spirituality inevitably is realized through an institution that necessarily uses the cares of the world as a means of sanctification; and possessing only a secular spirituality, is it surprising that it so easily slips into a religion of worldliness (e.g. the Prosperity Gospel)?

[@rosesyrup1104]

If staying sexually pure before marriage doesnt equate to a happy marriage and good sex life, then it should follow that making all the wrong choices doesn't mean you'll have a bad marriage either.

[@kensier4955]

I definitely feel like the purity culture I was raised in was extremely harmful to me even though I'm an adult woman pursuing purity now. I was told my purity was like a flower that would lose its petals and be worthless to your husband and other similar metaphors. I then was sexually assaulted at the age of 17 so you can imagine how all of that teaching made it very difficult for me to feel I had any value after such a degrading experience. I was told by the church that I would "still be seen as a virgin by God" and was even given a purity ring by accident after. I felt disgusting and after such a violent event it felt foolish to hear anyone say I was biologically still a virgin. I then would have to listen to talks about purity and virginity that absolutely broke my heart for years after. None of these teachings mentioned what to do if you had been assaulted or if you were a woman who was not "pure" and wanted to pursue that now. It was like it was only meant for the girls that were still pure and was always phrased to make them stay in that state out of fear of not being valuable. I think if I was tasked with teaching on purity I wouldn't tie it in to someone's value. I would mention other areas that aren't just sex but your mind, other behaviors etc. I would speak positively about sex but explain its consequences outside of marriage and explain what purity means for those who have been abused or want to change in that area.

[@claudiavalencia8883]

Allie. I enjoyed the interview that you had. with. Lina. She talked a little bit too fast for me but the. But it was very encouraging

[@Jean-nr5ch]

I'm so glad this is getting talked about, from a single persective.

[@tobystamps2920]

Wow so much I could comment on here. I was a 45 year old virgin when I got married. I used to wonder if I would die single and without sex! I struggled with a lot of bitterness over it. I really hope and pray that she does get married. She seems like a very good godly woman.

[@labujamra1]

haha you and my mom both! thanks- pray for me.

[@morgans7785]

I’m very interested in this topic but this interview gives me so much anxiety and I have to focus so hard to not miss anything. It’s not easy to follow and she’s so fast.

[@BeeTimesTwo]

You can always slow it down in the video settings

[@johnchurch160]

Traditional courting norms required the couple to refrain from almost all physical contact, and anything that even sparks any sexual desire was forbidden (mortal sin.) Why? Because the purpose of courting is to discover if the prospective spouse is not merely compatible on a personality level, but also to discover if they sufficient virtue and means of fulfilling the role. Being fallen human beings, physical romantic affection, especially when new, is exciting and fills us with passion and emotion which clouds our judgment. We find ourselves wanting the pleasure of the relationship and not the person or the relationship itself. It's about not wedding yourself to a bad situation for the sake of indulging in temporary thrills, be they sexual, romantic, emotional or whatever. (Does this method work infallibly 100% of the time? No, of course not -- people will still be people. You can still mistakenly get into bad marriages following this pattern. But it is still sound and less likely to happen, and it preserves TRUE chastity and will maintain a clean conscience when abided by in sincerity, humility and fear of the Lord.)

[@ponderingskeptic6745]

Great interview ladies. May God bless you both and the fruit of this podcast.

[@dianaprince7713]

Generation X here. The purity culture traumatized me. I agree completely that God's Word commands us to remain sexually pure. My college boyfriend, whom I loved very much, dumped me because I was a virgin and he was not. He wouldn't consider marrying me, because purity culture taught him he didn't deserve a virgin wife. In the late '90s, purity culture made me feel like all that mattered was my body and what i did or didn't do with it. I don't see much difference between it and pornography in that respect. There is so much more that goes into purity and those things remain even in marriage. It's not just for single people.

[@labujamra1]

Spot on. Thx for sharing this - if highlighting the concept of purity culture and how diff that is from Gods gift of purity etc which by the way - Is undergirded by his grace. In other words, all of us are impure but all of us invited and fully accepted into Gods way bc of his grace. Grace is the great equalizer. Grace is the opposite of legalism and the purity culture .

[@dcarr-kr7hk]

"He wouldn't consider marrying me, because purity culture taught him he didn't deserve a virgin wife." Well he was certainly a rare one as I've never met any Christian brother (or man at all) who thought way. Yes. I'd say that he was damaged but I'm not positive that the core of it was purity culture. (Jesus has made us into new creations so...)

[@Nomarcaper]

For many of you saying that you feel guilt and shame for not waiting but have gone to God for repentance: think about why you are still feeling this guilt and how it’s supposedly “ruined your life” or has “caused a lot of pain in your life” is because of purity culture. What you have been taught will not let you let it go; but God has already forgiven you if you repented. It should not be causing your great pain unless you were very promiscuous trying to fill a void. Also, those who have been SAed/r*ped (even by coercion), it is not your fault, and God is here for you. His heart breaks for you, and wants to comfort you as this was not the way it should have ever been for you. My husband and I know this too well, and I promise, that you can and will heal with God’s help. We may not have been each others “first” because of r*pe, but we are only each others because of the grace of God and allowing us to come together and go on this journey together with God. Your virginity does not matter in the long run, but the purity of your heart. ❤

[@jameyb3545]

Who actually teaches these things in so called "purity culture"? Purity is God's standard, not sure how that is complicated. But I don't know any well rounded teachers of Biblical morality who are out there saying you are "guaranteed a Christian spouse and amazing sex in marriage" because they honor God's word. Prosperity Gospel in all its forms is abhorrent. Jesus promised suffering to those who follow him. But that doesn't mean we stop trying to do so.

[@RCGWho]

Right? Two sinful, immature human beings. What could go wrong? I was taught to stay out of bed but not given a whole lot of practical strategies. I had heard an analogy that marriage is basically 2 dump trucks backing up and dumping both of your junk in one big pile. It gets messy even if you're virgins who actually stayed pure.

[@morgans7785]

I still don’t know what purity culture got wrong… this was all over the place

[@labujamra1]

Legalism -

[@sharoncorrell9801]

The idea that purity or holiness before marriage is a bargain that you make with God for a great marriage and sex life eventually. But the larger issue is focusing on the outward behavior rather than the heart.

[@dcarr-kr7hk]

@morgans7785... 😄

[@austinfreeland1349]

Church: Follow All the rules. Also Church: If you are single you are a nobody to us.

[@MalloryNewcomb]

32:46 I’ve been thinking about this all day now and I think the doctor is really onto something

[@debbiefocht1907]

Thank you for having Dr. Lina on she has a wonderful ministry.

[@SoulDeepZim]

She's so smart! Wow

[@labujamra1]

Thank you. A few of the comments left me feeling kinda dumb haha . I appreciate u.

[@gastronomist]

51:32 I've seen this a lot - young people who are being 'pure' but eagerly can't wait to get married so they can have sex.

[@Naturallife7.]

And sadly, they don't know the purpose of marriage.

[@NathanSmutz]

If you're 15 and eager to get your license so you can drive; is that a sin? Women too, but especially men are fasting at a banquet. They're hungry all the time; and their place at the table is held hostage to the second biggest commitment they'll ever make. Is it right to say "shame on your stomach for growling;" or might "lust" mean something other than eagerness to fulfill a desire in the prescribed right way?

[@emerybayblues]

When I was growing up we didn’t use term “ purity culture “ we used the term holiness.

[@maggietruth]

God bless her she’s talking reality! We need more of these type of messages being spoken in our Christian leaders.

[@saralynndunkerson2509]

People do this with alcohol and marijuana too. Justification.

[@labujamra1]

correct.

[@LouisaWatt]

When I was in the occult, it was so unthinkable to everyone in that community that Jesus was celibate and died a virgin, that they invented all sorts of myths about him secretly marry Mary Magdalene or being gay with the apostle John. Why does our culture elevate sex to such a high degree? Are we so devoid of any other meaning that we cling to a bodily function to define who we are and whether we have truly "lived" or not? Evangelicals are just as sad. Even when they save sex for marriage, they idolise marriage and make it the sole purpose of their life while neglecting to live as a whole person while single.

[@ClaireCopeland-n6y]

You are so right

[@christy967]

Me listening to the episode twice now because it’s soo good

[@jenna-yl4gr]

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful and spot on. Love this convo!

[@joys.6347]

I liked her point about the "why?" It's more important than people think. I ask people "why?" about everything and they take it as an affront, or jump to thinking that I'm "against" them. Somehow, asking why is not allowed, and yet the reason why is quite important.

[@johngardner1953]

Where is the link to Lina's book and social media handles that Allie said would be placed here?

[@theelizabethan1]

A book that pops up in my mind is one written by the late 1980s ?? by the sister of Chuck Swindoll, Lucy Swindoll. Lucy, had a stellar career, if I remember correctly, as an engineer in the oil industry. Her book talk about the tests of her faith. Lucy Swindoll's book is titled: "Wide my World and Narrow my Bed."

[@elainehogan7865]

Loved this one. I want to listen again. Thank you, Allie Beth!

[@edwardperkins1225]

Actually there's a rational reason why Christians would talk more about the sinlessfullnes of commiting fornication, adultry, and homosexuality instead of sexual thoughts. If our culture is no longer understands Christian principles you have show how the acts are wrong before saying thoughts of the same are wrong. Even if we need to cover thoughts with those who know the principles, when speaking to the culture, or non-Christians that doesn't work. As for thoughts, the point of something being adultry or murder of the heart was never that it's the exact same level of sinfulness as doing the act, only that it's not innocent, and if the desire is unrestrained it leads to commiting the act. Even if each thought were as bad as an action remember, "out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." It's an overflowing of bad thoughts when there's a bad act, so it's worse than one bad thought when a person actually acts on it. As for the guest wondering why adressing homosexuality is a high priority for Christians I can explain that choice. If people were trying to pass laws against saying adultry was wrong, and the culture was promoting it everywhere you can bet Christians would think addressing it should be a top priority before things got any worse. The main problems I can see with, "purity culture" is acting as if a thought is just as bad as an action, and an inability to explain how people would ever want to marry if they didn't sexually desire eachother in the first place. Marriage is the stable moral sexual relationship so that you can raise the children resulting from that in a stable moral way so they grow up to be godly children. Since a man is required to initiate things like: dating, a proposal, and marriage he can't wait around for the best offer and just say yes the way a woman could in theory, he has to pursue it which means he needs a goal, or win condition, to visualize. Part of that goal is a sexual relationship, and if he didn't desire that why would he marry at all since it is that relationship? "Purity culture" seems to break causation here like sawing off the bridge to marriage because they think being on the bridge is the same as falling in the deadly river of fornication and adultry. As for the adultry of the heart thing I think it's a married woman (no word for differentiating woman and wife in biblical Greek). If desiring a married woman overflowed the heart and was acted on that would actually be adultry.

[@RCGWho]

Interesting thoughts.

[@angietorok8389]

Unfortunately, I attended a Catholic high school where our younger teachers were "dating" their students. Talk about mixed messaging. I'm now saved and happily married...but I started out from a screwed up place. Thank Holy Father for you guidance.

[@claytonstangeland]

I don't see a problem with dating students. That's a big pool of single young women that a young teacher is around. My grandpa's brother married his student.

[@angietorok8389]

@@claytonstangeland It depends on whether or not a teacher is doing it cereally and what the intentions are. It can also be a pool of young women easily manipulated by a supposed authoritu figure.

[@angietorok8389]

@@claytonstangeland And to be clear, they f---ing these young girls while teaching in an institution that (supposedly) encourages waiting until marriage.

[@CatholicTraditional]

This must’ve been a Catholic-in-name-only school. Any reputable school (public or private) wouldn’t allow faculty and staff to date students, even if the HS seniors are legal adults at 18.

[@RCGWho]

​@claytonstangeland They're under age, illegal, AND it's unprofessional.

[@anaismoton]

This is such a good topic. While purity culture has the right idea of teaching abstinence and keeping yourself before marriage and the culture did not allow for all topics of sexual sin and sexual thoughts or desires to be talked about. There were no safe spaces for anyone to be vulnerable and talk about what they were struggling with. You couldn’t even talk about the things you have seen through friends or television or the internet. I completely agree, they taught “If you keep yourself, you will have a great marriage”. That is not biblical and we should teach the Word for what it says. Glad this topic is being talked about!

[@RCGWho]

Did they really teach that, or did they say you'd have less baggage, less guilt, less comparison, less pregnancy, and less STDs?

[@signesmith6183]

I think another thing that needs to be addressed is that most cinservative christian marriage books make all men out to be more sexual than woman. They talk about how men will think about sex all the time and want it a lot. After my husband and I got married we really struggled because I had a higher sex drive than he did and I was feeling regected or that he was not attracted to me anymore. I wish more Christians would share more than just the stereotype that all men are the same when it comes to sex and how much they want it and that all woman really dont care about it.

[@labujamra1]

Good point!!

[@r.walker7986]

truth is, there is not a lot about sex in the bible and most all of this stuff is made up. And purity culture over spiritualizes sex while establishing basic attraction and the building blocks of sex and intimacy as bad and destructive. men get negatively effected by this too and often cannot be intimate with their wives after all the conditioning.

[@labujamra1]

I disagree I think the Bible is plentiful of instruction and story about sex and choices and Gods order for men and women- both in the old and New Testament! Have you read the Bible recently??

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

That may be your experience, but the exception does not break the rule, and testosterone plays a massive role.

[@BeeTimesTwo]

One hundred percent!!

[@ChristLike_Gen]

In the later days people will heap up to themselves teachers who will teach what their itching ears want to hear and not the true doctrine of Christ. Lukewarm Christians will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[@labujamra1]

can't tell you how many times i've thought about that!

[@lipshine1]

You guys need to stop being so judgmental. We get it’s a sin to have sex outside of marriage. How are we going to bring people to Christ if we say and believe people that have sinned and they will always be that way. We all fall short of the glory of God. All sin separates of from god not one specific sin all. See them as God sees them. I will love my neighbours and not throw stones. If someone has repent and chooses God. Forgive and not habit any bitterness or anger or God will not forgive you.

[@jessc6119]

Very interesting I didn’t hear about any friends having sexual experiences in highschool. We were all virgins till 18 as far as I knew. I “lost” my virginity at 20 before marriage to my only partner. I was never told by my parents to wait till marriage even though they were “Christian’s” I married him. Our marriage is pretty difficult 🤷🏻‍♀️ Wouldn’t recommend my path to my children

[@r.walker7986]

your marriage is not difficult becasue you did not save yourself, its difficult because build a relationship is hard and difficult for most people. This guilt you have is the bad part about purity culture. it puts more weight on sex than it should. a sin is a sin and weighting any one in particular as if its worse is a self manifesting belief>>>reality. you know how many people that saved themselves can't even have sex becasue of a psychosomatic complex they now have, married for years without even consummating the marriage! Forgive yourself.

[@em77775]

@@r.walker7986 That's a great point, that sin is sin. Some may have "saved" themselves for marriage, but have other issues like anger, jealousy, pride, manipulation, etc., that could also cause marriage problems.

[@CM-sy3to]

​@@r.walker7986if waiting until marriage caused psychosomatic problems where marriage could never be consummated, explain how all generations prior to medical birth control, managed to stay virgins before marriage and have sex after marriage, having large families of children as proof of no psychosomatic mental disorder from virginity?

[@stetsonscott8209]

​@CM-sy3to they didn't say it was garaunteed, just that it can also be held so incorrectly that it causes damage. It can also be less pronounced, so that the married couple is having sex but one or both of them feel dirty because of incorrect shame and fear practices employed to maintain cellabacy before marriage. This can lead to divorce just as easily as any other sexual sin.

[@CM-sy3to]

@@stetsonscott8209 it could be that everyone is exposed to deviant porn today and fear of experiencing deviant sex or fear of enjoying deviancy would hinder Christians first experiencing sexual union. A virgin girl could be scared of or repulsed by a young husband attempting what he saw in porn.

[@janiceyoder621]

Wow wow wow. I've been struggling on how to teach my children on how to have relationships once they start dating, because I grew up with purity culture doctrine that didn't make sense when I was dating! It's not Bible plus man's way, but Bible only. I get it! Thank you ladies!

[@terriNCCC]

Trying to follow what she is saying she’s all over the place jumping from one topic to the next before she even completes a sentence. I’m trying my best to stay with it though

[@labujamra1]

Summary: holiness = good. Purity culture = bad. Grace = desperately needed! Easy…

[@takafrazier7860]

I am a 24 year old married woman- I have been DEEPLY affected (negatively) by purity culture throughout my life growing up in the church. I am still in a healing process from much of it, and learning how beautiful my marriage is along with sex and true relationship. This is a wonderful interview and makes some great points that helped me. Thank you!

[@JovannaandFriends]

This was a great interview. I do think that it was unfortunate for Sheila Gregorie to be brought up in a somewhat unfavorable way... her work is extensive. She has spent years researching in order to understand the experiences of Christians in marriage, much can be concluded about the heart and spiritual health from her research. As a Conservative Christian, I don't find Sheila to be a leftist in any way and she clearly loves Jesus. Allie, have Sheila on, please!

[@labujamra1]

Heard. Though I disagree with sheila on some things theologically, I do appreciate her efforts on behalf of women.

[@kkinner2762]

So this is where I do think her being single does blind her a bit. Unfortunately there are many issues in intimacy that CAN be remedied or at least try to remedy. Like she said older women should be the ones helping us but they are not! Sheila is definitely egalitarian which is a problem but she is all we got. So until a more conservative woman starts writing on the topic 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@Christianchoose]

Christmas is about Christ, his Atonement, and his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane, his resurrection, He lives! Come unto Christ learn of Jesus Christ visiting the descendants of Lehi! Jesus Christ did visit them! 3 Nephi chapter 11! Jesus Christ preserved the record of his visit to Lehi's descendants so that we could have another witness of his resurrection! Come unto Christ this Christmas by accepting further light and knowledge of Jesus Christ!

[@zoel.3840]

Really appreciated this episode - I think it would have been helpful to have a definition of what was meant in the ep by purity culture. For me the definition has two parts: putting blame on women for men’s lust and sexual sin and condemning having sex until the second you are married and then it’s magically fine.

[@RCGWho]

Women do sin by provoking men to lust. Secular people are more honest and call it a thirst trap.