What's happened to Caesar’s Legion after Fallout New Vegas?

[@purpleblah2]

Ulysses also says he doesn’t even know if it’s the same man behind the mask anymore, implying Lanius could just be a title, where the man behind the mask gets replaced by someone stronger. Though the way he’s built up, I personally think it’s the same guy, but deceiving his people with a legendary facade is something Caesar has definitely done before.

[@oscars4608]

That would make sense given how many of Lanius’ mask copies you can find in the Divide

[@donutwastaken718]

@@oscars4608 those are replicas crafted by the marked men Ulysses says something along the lines "the masks, I originally believed they were to mock him, but it seems they worship him. They replicated the mask to show they are just as strong"

[@oscars4608]

@@donutwastaken718 thanks, haven’t played lonesome road yet and I’m trying to avoid spoilers beforehand.

[@donutwastaken718]

@@oscars4608 oh I'm sorry even tho its more of a minor spoiler

[@oscars4608]

@@donutwastaken718 no worries I wasn’t being sarcastic my friend I appreciated the insight

[@briansebor]

I remember in high school, I would hang out on the Bethesda Fallout forums and laid out the design for an entire Fallout game centered on the Midwest in the 2290s. I also wrote about a DLC set in Arizona in the middle of Legion Civil War after Lanius’s death. You hit on a lot of the same ideas and brought a lot of memories back with this video. In the idea, Lanius died trying to conquer Utah after the humiliation at Hoover Dam and it shattered the Legion. The result is dozens of Centurions and other leaders vying for leadership. Years on, most of the lesser factions have been crushed and Lucius is en route to be the new Caresar. He leads the faction around Flagstaff. A young man named Augustus Caesar, claiming to be Caesar’s son, was his chief competition. In the DLC, you were supposed to back Lucius or Augustus to become the only Caesar or kill both and doom the region to chaos. Augustus was not Caesar’s son, he’s just a random slave boy groomed by Vulpes to be the puppet of the Frumentarii. You can expose him if you find out, but if you put him in charge, he’s a strong leader. With this fraud as the leader, the Legion is revitalized and reformed to be less brutal and more of a nation state. With the Lucius in charge, they just keep doing what they have been and decline. Great video, you just got a subscriber!

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks for that! And the DLC sounds super interesting, it would be sick to see a mod of that in the future.

[@bryansegura2328]

This is an interesting concept man! I really like your lore of the aftermath of the Legion's loss. I wrote a partial story set in Louisiana, that has The Legion pushed back even more east. Not only does the Legion get pushed back more east but other factions aswell that I came up with such as Merc Companies who have advanced weaponry but not enough men to combat the NCR coming from the west. Looking to regain their strength again, seems as if everyone there is looking to gain enough power to retake their territory.

[@IinferusS]

Sounds fun

[@starpaladinnelaj]

Great concept!! I've wrote something similar for my vision of a Fallout: Texas where following Ceasers death due to the tumor and the Legates death at the hands of the Courier at Hoover Damn, Lucious (along with Vulpes) take control of the Legion and turn there sites eastwards, towards the large and unconquer lands of Texas.

[@biodtox]

Sounds great. Are the forum posts still there to read or are they lost to time?

[@theglutton1815]

This is not a dead horse, new Vegas is still a great game!

[@acutalgrove]

I think he meant making videos on the Legion itself.

[@DirtyDev]

He meant mostly making vids on the legion maybe he'll make vids on house and the ncr more

[@richardchargingcloud6590]

yup, even has online multiplayer for pc

[@Idontwannashutup]

Legion play throughs >>>

[@idipped2521]

It has more replay value of any game I've ever played

[@BlackRabbit223]

Lanius is portrayed as a brute throughout the game but when you actually speak to the man at the end of the game I got the impression that it's an act, propaganda so to speak, Caesar wants the legion to be feared. What you see at bunker hill is all a show for the NCR to see, lowers the enemy's resolve. The Legion is an identity that goes beyond itself, the tribes that it is made of will never go back to being what they were before, because despite how brutal the Legion is tribal life was worse.

[@fallout0624]

The Legion would likely turn into a fairly secure nation, Legtes and Centuripns turning into Goveners and Lanius probably taking control of the Legion's armies with a tribunal to rule day to day

[@Brandonhayhew]

@@fallout0624 what about other forms of basic: like foods, manufacturers of goods, science, modern technology engineers, traders of open markets, robotics, doctors of medical. All these needs a lot of institutions to function everyday. The legions don’t have any of these?

[@fallout0624]

@@Brandonhayhew see the way the Legion is run currently in there territory, traders are fairly free same with their individual farms (from what we've heard and seen). With manufacturing it's most likely local blacksmiths doing the work. Medicine is based off of tribal remedies so farming would provide some support for that. But military would remain in control to a huge degree as it is currently run

[@fallout0624]

@@Brandonhayhew also the Legion relies on much simpler tech then most other parts of the wasteland meaning manufacture would be simple and robotics is all but banned

[@marshaltito7232]

Yeah but when you walk into the tent before the battle he's standing there sacrificing slaves to Mars with his bare hands. Like yeah he's well spoken and an excellent comander but he is absolutely as brutal as he is made out to be.

[@theta_clips]

15:59 THANK YOU for mentioning this. So many people seem to forget that Ceaser really doesn't hate the NCR, just the concept of democracy and bureaucracies. The entire point of his Hagelian Dialectics speech is to make it clear that he isn't expecting to win the battle without heavy loses, only that when the day comes, the aftermath of the battle would be stronger than either the NCR or the Legion.

[@Hulgore]

Yes good comment, this synthesis that he speaks of, he explains it at as a transformation of the Legion itself, which means this weakness of internal conflicts at Caesar's death might be solve by the fusion of the 2 systems : no democracy, no bureaucracy, but a hereditary dictatorship

[@yourdadsotherfamily3530]

Well tbf in most modern democracies bureaucracy is just a way to subvert those tools of democracy through democratic/political subtlety lol I could understand why he hates them when I live in a representative democratic system ruined by bureaucracy…

[@FlymanMS]

Doesn't matter what he says, he's a megalomaniac obsessed with glory and ideas he doesn't fully understand or straight misinterpret.

[@chickencurry420]

​@@Hulgore Perhaps he's preparing his men to be subservient of a New World Order, so to speak. They start out as tribes then assimilate them into the Legion. Then in the aftermath of the war with the NCR, they'll assimilate again into whatever's left.

[@Hulgore]

​@@chickencurry420 Well this process creates an Empire. It is something Caesar claims, this transformation of the Legion from a "nomadic tribe" into a "genuine empire". And so Caesar takes the ancient Rome as a historical reference because the roman empire replaced the roman republic

[@colinleighton8295]

Despite how distrubing and evil Lanius is, I’ve always loved how at the end of new vegas he actually compliments the courier in several different ways

[@simonwilliamnoelmurray9179]

Lanius is not evil.

[@bigbaltha]

@@simonwilliamnoelmurray9179 @Simon William Noel Murray

[@GDKF0238]

“Lanius is not evil”, remind me to never ask for your moral compass when we’re lost in a sea of shit

[@corvonics6383]

@@FleeceJohnson1337listen here. I likes ya and I wants ya. Now we can do this the easy way or the hard way. You decide

[@rhett5058]

@@GDKF0238Look at his karma rating. Neutral. Checkmate. profligate.

[@taxult]

Honestly though, I don't think they'd get rid of the Legate THAT easily, man literally survived being jumped by 15 of his own tribals, you may say the story behind Lanius may or may not be true, in my opinion, I think it's a bit of both, Lanius survived getting mauled by his tribals but he isn't some mindless brute that wants to kill everything (or a brute that can be reasoned with atleast), and judging from how Graham was able to survive multiple Ranger Assassination parties, i'd assume Lanius could do the same easily, and you'd expect Lanius to expect something so obvious from Vulpes since he despises him.

[@lufsolitaire5351]

I also think Lanius can be reasoned with if you bring him undeniable objective facts and proof for whatever point you’d be trying to make. Perhaps instead immediately jumping to assassination, Vulpes makes a supplication to prove why he’s better to him alive and the Frumentarii still functional than dead and dissolved. It’s been shown even if Lanius despises missing out on a battle; he will yield to a silver tongued courier. Perhaps Vulpes can get Lanius to concede with a few conditions and Lanius having someone keep an eye on him or having a handler.

[@veemie8148]

@@lufsolitaire5351 mutually assured destruction pact lol

[@godkingofcarp]

Amazing pfp

[@thesneakystrangler9002]

he got killed by a mailman. cope harder.

[@trutwhut6550]

​@@thesneakystrangler9002bro the mail man is un-killable☠️

[@Thunderation13]

I don't think Caesar expects the Legion to last forever. His Legion isn't a copy of Rome, merely styled upon it, but it is intended to fulfill the same role it did in history, a foundation upon which western civilization was built. Caesar's beliefs ultimately stem from the idea that human civilization was set back to zero by the bombs. Strip away all the advanced tech and scraps of knowledge lying around and you're left with a bunch of tribal cultures that, in his mind, are akin to pre-classical human civilization. Rome was what changed that. Even after it fell apart, the peoples of Europe were left with unifying forces in the form of established common languages, religion, governance practices, legal history, etc. that prevented them from falling back to a tribal state and allowed for the continued spread and development of western culture. The Legion is a transitional entity. It elevates the tribes from what they are and spurs the construction of something new. The NCR can't do that because it's trying to go back to just before the bombs dropped. But if Rome wasn't built in a day, the modern USA wasn't built in a year. It couldn't have happened without the successive stages of civilization that led to it and the wasteland isn't developed enough to support that kind of government yet. Maybe it will, in time, but you need something else to get there. Caesar wanted this to be a combination of his Legion's wasteland adaptations with the NCR's concepts of citizenship, stability, and infrastructure so that they would have a purpose, a constant hand pushing society forward. It's unclear whether any of the other leadership understood this long-term goal for humanity, though, so who knows if they'd continue to be a roving army until they fell apart or settle in the lands they've conquered and raise up a citizen class of their own from the new generations that were born into the Legion and hold its values above those of their ancestor's tribal ways. If the later, it could very well grow and thrive while the NCR stagnates and decays. It just needs a leader who sees it as more than a war machine.

[@kenal9719]

Well put

[@venicec3310]

Ave a true equestrian answer

[@pipsqeak7104]

Honestly if the NCR wasn't do successful I would fully back the. Legion I think any government is good in fallout it's just important to have a government but the NCR seems to be successful in starting from the top. So starting from the bottom isnt necesary.

[@NoobZxReviewZ]

This is a supreme take

[@fallout0624]

Caesar's Legion fits very well into that narrative. Even referring to it as Caesar's Legion makes it seem like a piece of history to later generations who have a copy of an old history book

[@april-bloom]

Your voice is literally perfect for lore videos. Thanks for many great videos!

[@yaboiii6562]

Thank you!

[@Danielspremiumhub]

Sounds like a 70s porno

[@JyggaIag]

@@Danielspremiumhub …..

[@edwoods5576]

Australian accent

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

They lived happily ever after cause I always play as Legion

[@Dorkeydaze]

The legion would be more respectful if it wasn’t a bunch of people role playing as the Romans. If Edward shallow actually focused on the “civilization” aspect of what he’s trying to achieve and actually starting pastoral:agricultural community’s to provide actual supplies and armor instead of football equipment to his legion it would be easier to take them serious, but for most player legionnaires account for little more than target practice.

[@Valencetheshireman927]

@@Dorkeydaze What about the NCR? They role play as pre war America. I don’t think we can blame Sallow for the football gear armour. Blame the developers for designing it that way.

[@Dorkeydaze]

@@Valencetheshireman927 The NCR aren’t role playing as pre war America they actually fought a war with pre war America (the enclave) and they’ve made it very apparent all though their laws and humanitarian rights mostly came from pre war American ideals..... that doesn’t mean their a carbon copy and have their own unique administration and authority.

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

@@Dorkeydaze Fuck NCR

[@Valencetheshireman927]

@@Dorkeydaze The Enclave isn’t the same as pre war America. It’s a paramilitary force that’s nothing like pre war USA, whereas the NCR is just a copy of pre war America with its democracy and rule of law without adding anything new that makes it viable for the future and ensures America’s Great War mistake is not repeated. The NCR is not a carbon copy, I’m not trying to say that, if anything it’s actually worse than pre war America given the corruption issue it has. What I am saying is that it is repeating the mistakes of the past and not learning from them. Yaboii mentioned this in another video he made about which faction is best.

[@CaesarSonOfMars]

The courier will always be my true heir

[@Conduit263]

Edward would never say that

[@Goofy-G]

AVE

[@theprimarchangron882]

no lol

[@middac7882]

Ave true to caesar

[@CaesarSonOfMars]

@Kyle Potter you've hit every point that confirmed it for me I just wish they had enough time to finish working on the Legion to make it a fully fleshed out faction

[@Meshric]

The issue with Lucius is he's too forgiving. Not only does he apologize for getting angry when it's your hands that kill Caeser, but also when you fail to assassinate Kimbal, the president of the NCR and the greatest target for the legion to take out. When you fail with Caeser giving the mission, he threatens you with crucifixion. When you fail with Lucius giving you the mission, he just says it's unfortunate you were unable to kill Kimbal. He's in the small group to have heard Caeser's motivations personally, and one of the few to actually care about the legion's survival, hell he's even willing to teach a female courier an unarmed technique. Under different circumstances, perhaps if the legion was the legion that Caeser envisioned the legion becoming, he'd be a pretty damn good leader. But that legion isn't the current legion.

[@shroomer3867]

Basically Lucius would make a great NCR Admiral.

[@TheR00k]

That said, both events take place right before the battle. The Courier is an asset for the Legion, so it makes sense that Lucius wouldn't want to kill them, instead planning to use them to their fullest. The brain surgery is poorly understood even by Caesar himself, so Lucius can be genuine when saying that he's sorry for that outburst. But, he can just be playing for time, using the Courier in the battle of Hoover Dam, only to throw them under the bus later. He definitely would if the battle was lost.

[@michaelweiske702]

Caesar has as much bite as Lucius. If you F up all of Caesar's forces before you kill Benny? You get a pass for that. Fail to convince the boomers to work with the legion? You get a pass for that. You fail to assassinate Kimball? You get a pass for that. The only thing you can't get a pass from Caesar is saving him from his brain tumor (because he would be dead and can't do anything either way) and taking Hoover dam (because you would be dead before he could do anything either way).

[@crenfick7750]

Agreed, but it's the smallest flaw of the three. Lanius simply can't be a civilian statesman, and Vulpes can't inspire obedience. Lucius is no Caesar but not threatening the courier with death is a smaller flaw.

[@facundomontivero2299]

"hell he's even willing to teach a female courier an unarmed technique." I mean, that's just for gameplay purposes.

[@Johnathan_The_Terrible]

I don't think talking about the legion in the grand scheme of things is a dead horse! You seem to be the only commentator, besides Schizo Elijah, that views them in a somewhat positive light.

[@ayrtonbarmecide4912]

I love his memes but Schizo Elijah doesn't really contribute much to the analysis of the legion, it's mostly "CHAD MACHETE VS VIRGIN MACHINE GUN" content

[@brooksriley9659]

Yeah the Legion isn’t ever given really a fair shake and I love seeing content that views the legion in a more positive light. Plus I gotta say I’m basically a pure legion player myself. So Ave True to Caesar

[@spacetrainbaby3737]

@@ayrtonbarmecide4912 elijah does have videos that explain how legion is good, but even then they're still a bit shitpost-y

[@Johnathan_The_Terrible]

@@brooksriley9659 Is it just me, or is Caesar's Legion from New Vegas a reference to the real world Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas?

[@bl1tz533]

@@Johnathan_The_Terrible proly

[@cranky_gat0r_]

4:46 - 19:17 “Last steps of a man, who does not yet realize he is walking dead.” The echo of Graham’s quote gave me chills.

[@ryankasch5561]

Despite what the people in game say, the fact that Caesars legion grants rank based on merit makes me think that it would survive. Honestly, having Lanius also dead might be preferable as Lucius and Vulpes seem to be much more competent than the straight brutality of Lanius. Edit: I think modern people really don't understand generals. For the majority of warfare generals have been young. Elderly men are not necessarily a benefit, and the legion definitely has had much experience, which is generally what actually matters.

[@0307scott]

One of the many problems with Caesar's Legion is the rampant sexism in the ranks; women are viewed as being too weak to fight yet one of their fighters in the arena is a 'female NCR Ranger' who has killed everyone that has faced her with exception of the Courier (if you choose to fight in the arena). Women are used as literal pack mules in the Legion, treading up and down from the Fort to the Camp all day every day - so if they they're strong enough to be used used as Pack Mules loaded down with all sorts of supplies and weapons then how are they too weak to fight? Surely the exact opposite is TRUE and women are strong enough and should be able to fight in the Legion! The NCR and the Brotherhood prove the Legion wrong with regards of women fighting. Even the Courier if the player chooses to play as a female. Not widely using guns is just plain stupid when every other faction and settlement of the wasteland uses guns. The Legion make themselves weaker by limiting their armoury and range of weapons. Caesar himself is the only reason why the Legion is what it is at the time of New Vegas, once he dies the Legion will fracture. Several of Caesar's top Lieutenants fear what will happen to the Legion once Lanius takes over. The Legionnaires can actually remember the different Tribes from which they come from, this may sound good but NO. This brings about a 'Division of Loyalties' within the ranks of Caesars Legion which is modelled after the Roman Empire. The Romans would conquer different peoples and over the course of decades or longer would be put through 'Romanisation' making them forget the Tribe or Culture that they came from with them only viewing themselves as Roman with loyalty to Rome solely. Caesar has conquered 82 Tribes in a relevantly short period of time. His men don't view themselves only as members of the Legion but as a Hangdog, Blackfoot, etc... in addition.

[@urubissoldat5452]

@@0307scott No Legionary views themselves as a tribal any more, except for one former frumentarii. Most are happy that they have been uplifted into the Legion. Also towards the gender roles , women birthing children is infinitely more utilitarian long and short term than women fighting. With the Legion all but forcing a constant stream of children to be born no other faction will be able to compete numerical in a generation or two. Even if the Legion dissolves the ideas, religion and culture of the Legion are here to stay in the southwest.

[@Yannis1a]

Why do people think Vulpes or Lucius would ever succesed Lanius or Ceasar?? The fumentarii are the spy network separated from the army, after Lanius he would be succeed by an other Legate (Ulysses said their were other Legates, but he was very vague about that), or the most senior Centurion, also Lucius is the Praetorian Guard of Ceasar not of Lanius when he succes as leader he wouldn't keep him as commander of his Praetorian guard, unless he prove he is very loyal to him, like many Roman emperors did in real history they would sent the old pratorian guard to become the police in rome or some where else and appoint a new guard to prevent pratorian guard from assassinating them

[@DirtyDev]

@@0307scott sexism is bad but what the legion does isn't an example of it just think why have a vastly physically weaker solider fight whilst they could be used to produce a stronger solider

[@viothesheikah1018]

@@DirtyDev It's not so much that women are weaker than men, but that women and men have separately useful functions in the legion. It's not sexism, it's utilitarian exploitation

[@trentbailey0yiaytokens]

Anyone else love listening to Joshua’s voice. It’s so calm and relaxing

[@theshambler6814]

Even if the Legion does shatter after 10-20 years of infighting and intrigue among the leadership, the cultural precedents set by it would not just disappear. It is likely that the Cult of Mars would remain the dominants religion of the area for generations, and that whatever new powers rise from the ashes would be modeled after the old empire (and thus still be a threat capable of expanding in other directions, instead of just reverting to tribal chaos once again). Hell perhaps after a couple of generations of stability these Rogue Legions would expand outwards once more, having battled each other into stalemate and eventually forming some form of peace (or even reform into a singular empire again under another genius).

[@trutwhut6550]

Rome 2: America edition

[@AvarageYoututbeUser]

This isn't the sequel I didn't need

[@trygveblacktiger597]

I mean its a wasteland like anything could really happend. While everyone acts like the NCR is a stable nation state it would fall apart for a number of reasons. I mean its a Empire too just spouting Democratic ideals.

[@Dorkeydaze]

It’s a relatively small nation with a population maxed at about 1 millions. That’s like the city of Rome before Christ it really isn’t that hard to maintain

[@elliotyourarobot]

And its not really an Empire ether it does not fit the unique characteristics of one.

[@CreativeUsernameHere-r1k]

Ngl, they are gonna tumble into their corruption, their infrastucture was and is bad, witouth you or the legion raid parties they'd still be stuck in the brahmin dung.

[@jamesthelamenter3403]

Yes.

[@urubissoldat5452]

Especially with their economy in shambles and only being propped up by the oligarchs.

[@platypipope328]

small correction genghis khans empire peaked 50 years after his death

[@briewhit1312]

edward sallow aint no genghis khan

[@rorianray]

I really like Lanius. Lanius the myth the ferocious bloodthirsty unkillable legate, is a shadow of Lanius the man, he is proven to be most of that and an expert strategist, listens to wise counsel and more importantly his ego isnt as bloated as Caesars. New Vegas/Hoover Dam isn't as important to him as it is to Caesar. If he is talked down, he realises he needs to stabilise the legion and rebuild before pressing further. I just found out too that Lanius's karma is neutral. Whereas his political enemy, Vulpes, is very evil. Pretty cool. A defeated Legion with Lanius still at the helm is a very tasty idea for a future faction. Lanius is a traditionalist and commands the respect of the entire legion. He may not be learned as Caesar. But he is entirely more goal flexible than Caesar.

[@mikevignola4213]

To be fair Vulpes through his actions should be a very evil character. He's sadistic and seems to enjoy torturing people well beyond what he is ordered to. He far more of a monster than Lanius is. Lanius just seems to be someone who relishes the joy combat, if it wasn't for the DLC he appears in I would surmise that Lanius was Joshua Graham in disguise do his intellect. He has a strategic mind this is not the blunt instrument he's made out to be, he understands strategy and tactics. This is someone who obviously plans his own raids and is involved on the strategic level.

[@facundomontivero2299]

Although he is much too brutal.

[@galahad6189]

I could imagine a wars of the Diodochi type scenario following Caesar's death, with his greatest Legates and Centurions carving out their own corners of Caesar's land.

[@LotsOfThoughts]

great analysis as always, thank you for this!

[@yaboiii6562]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@moteados]

This game is so awesome and we are talking abouit it even 11 years later

[@yaboiii6562]

We'll never stop.

[@4thHorsemam]

The best game of all time for me

[@cheeselover626]

I love how you enact out a lot of the what-if scenarios (e.g. the NCR sniping Lanius). MAkes the video that much more engaging!

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks mate!

[@HoboHunterRik]

I've said it once I'll say it again "I don't care if its not sustainable, I'm not paying fucking taxes"

[@Matt-td8xw]

I mean, the Legion as their own coin and they are based in the ancient rome, wich had taxes, soooo....

[@perturabo7825]

The legion literally has a more stable currency than the NCR

[@dr.man9759]

@@perturabo7825 you're not wrong the NCR had made a recent switch from the gold standard to a more modern system of valuing currency after a brotherhood raid destroyed their gold reserve putting their currency into flux causing people to have little faith in it

[@accountname9506]

@@dr.man9759 It's worth even less around Vegas because people there trust it even less. I assume it's worth more in the NCR proper.

[@granudisimo]

@@dr.man9759 The bottle cap standard is the real standard not just for the Mojave, but for everywhere else, even here and now (totally not a game reference), since it shows the made up nature of money, and how it's just a token to facilitate the exchange of goods and services because society agrees upon the fact it can be used for that. The gold standard is a joke, and any standard that bases the collectively agreed upon value of a made up token through the perceived value of a specific natural resource for that matter. **laughs in Spanish empire crumbling from inflation despite using gold and silver coins, laughing intensifies upon reminiscing on the fact that it doesn't get more gold standardish than that, considering that in those specific historical circumstances, gold's value was attached to whomever's face is in it** Seems that the reason English is the predominant language and not Spanish, it's that Charles First of Spain and Fifth of Germany lacked the foresight of instituting a mithril standard. There's also the fact that to modern society, gold is worthless beyond its unique chemical properties that applied mostly to computers, and the fact some people still consider it a good standard for currency is merely a hindrance from a past where the only reasoning for gold´s value was "ooohhh, worthless for tools but shiney and scarce oooohhhh, monkey brain go brrrrr", basically a millennia old soy face still ingrained in our collective consciousness.

[@82MPN]

06:00 not a good point.... yes rome broke apart.... but after hunderds of years of beeing the supreme power. It wasn't a fast rise with a quick fall. It was one of the longest living empires.

[@TheScienceguy77]

Rome arguably lasted well over 1,500 years. It was a slow decline over the course of centuries.

[@elseggs6504]

They were overstretched hard though, which is why Rome never really grew much beyond the borders around Augustus' time. Otherwise they wouldve pacified the Germans a long time ago.

[@elliotyourarobot]

They could not keep communications at an acceptable rate

[@alt-monarchist]

@@elseggs6504 Yet the Romans made it all the way to Scotland

[@MishaFlower]

@@elseggs6504 They weren't overstretched. They literally just ran out of land to conquer. Scotland, germany, and africa had to little people to get enough taxes for an army to be worth it. And iran's terrarian made it too hard to conquer. The only way roman empire could've been any bigger without having to sink fuckton of money into regions that didn't pay that much would be rome taking iraq and a couple of areas in the arab Peninsula. And if they somehow miercuously managed to take over Iran they wouldn't be able to expand any further because there was no civilization to justify expanding.

[@steelcladCompliant]

Their economy doesnt rely entirely on conquest and plunder, and neither does its recruitment. They have a civilian population living in towns. Those people are producing some sort of wealth, evidenced by the traders eager to do business in Legion territory, and having children (in addition to the children born to slaves in the frontlines). They dont rely on eternal expansion, but the NCR does, the whole reason they are in the Mojave is to steal resources and energy that their economy needs

[@koderamerikaner5147]

The fact that the legion is able to mint gold coins to act as its currency indicates that they have some sort of industry which is capable of mining and metallurgy. The trade prosperity of the Legion resembles the Mongol Empire, and civilians will be able to create their own businesses in an almost laissez faire manner. For administration of territories, we have already seen that the Legion has a eugenics system which almost always selects those which are highly capable in leadership skills.

[@redholm]

@@koderamerikaner5147 I think that one was explained as them finding a mint and a large gold supply. So they used that to make a stable currency with actual value making it more attractive to trade.

[@Ayr-me7vb]

The Legion in its current form is a war economy that relies on its military to survive. Caeser is aware of this, as he talks about how after the NCR is defeated the Legion will have to reform.

[@corywarren5297]

The fact the Ceaser never had a child in the 30 odd years of the legions life is a failure on his part. He should've raised an heir

[@alexzero3736]

That would be against Roman traditions. Position of emperor wasn't hereditary. Emperors were elected or took power by force...

[@electricangel4488]

​@@alexzero3736then gmgis failure will be tunnel vision on rome.

[@Yes-Man1337]

@@alexzero3736He could still adopt a child. Julius adopted Augustus

[@Yes-Man1337]

@@alexzero3736But ig he was already his uncle before that lol

[@alexzero3736]

@@Yes-Man1337 Caesar didn't. Augustus was named his succesor in Caesar last will.

[@The_Alt_Vault]

For a start Bethesda probably wont ever touch anything passed appalacha but if they ever did. I could imagine the legion being the ground work for meany of the central US's tribes becoming roaming warbands that might style themselves on the legion, or perhaps a form of the cult of Mars might live on the same way that the legacy of Alexander in our world influenced meany leaders of the classical world for hundreds of years after his death. Even his image and association with his patren God helping in the early formation of Christianity, so not out of the question for Caesar to be associated with his chosen God to form a hybrid between the two to act as the basis of religion in the region that the legion ruled. Maybe we would be able to see some older people who might recall being in the legion when they where young but the leader of the praetorians taking over could possibly reform the legion to last much longer but if so it would likely remain where it is expanding and receiding as lands become depopulated and lacking in plunder. I do have to admit your the only person who's come up with this much of a indeph look at the succession beyond laniuce ruins everything.

[@flamesofchaos13]

Bethesda literally references the West with Kellogg's backstory in Fallout 4. With him being from the NCR in it's founding years around San Francisco and working for the Shi...So they already touched on it. Also that's how they like to hint at the next game in the main series you know like how Fallout 3 had Synths and Institute Scientist and Railroad member from the Commonwealth and Dr. Li going there. Lanius while brutal clearly isn't utterly stupid. Like he said the dialogue the Courier can have with him to reason for him leaving the Mojave alone and settling affairs back East is smart and showcases that the Legate understands what a losing battle is and how not to fall into an obvious trap (which in his own words is the entirety of the West of the NCR is not worth it). Plus it's not the only instance of indication the Legion might live on...If you have Boone with you and kill Caesar he thinks they'll continue to exist and fight. The characters that say the Legion will fall are either characters not in the Legion or have been gone from it for years...Meaning they don't know how it's functioned for a while or ever. They're guessing it'll die quickly...But the game actually hints that it'll be slow if it does or it actually won't that they underestimated the Heir and other potential rulers if not the entirety of the Legion's will to live on.

[@fallout0624]

@@flamesofchaos13 since we really dont know all that much about the Legion its entirely possible Casear had an heir already and had trained them how to rule, all we see is Caesar himself in his tent, he left the Legion Capital of Flagstaff for the battle afterall.

[@crenfick7750]

I think a Lucius with Vulpes's backing has a good shot. Lucius has the best head on his shoulders as well as an ability to be respected by his legion. Vulpes would be effective at sniffing out and stopping disloyalty. However, much of this depends on Vulpes and his ambitions. If Vulpes is fully loyal to Lucius out of a belief that he is the best for the Legion, then all goes fine. If Vulpes has ambitions of greater power for himself, it can all come crashing down.

[@G-swet]

Fun fact if you kill legate lanius with the same with the weapon wielded by the imitators you get from the divide you will get a achievement known as (one of the same)

[@DesertPunke]

Blade of the west?

[@cpob2013]

I would think after securing his new capital, caesar would demobilize a portion of his troops. Roman legionaries were promised land as a retirement bonus so as the Mojave is pacified, he could construct small settlements for his older veterans. Rome set the term at 20 years of service but I think our legion could lower it to 12, seeing how young his troops really are. This would ensure they still have at least a decade of fighting age left in them to serve as a local militia and secure the area themselves in Caesars name. Meanwhile these veterans take up jobs like crafting and ranching and become economically productive and take wives and have children to serve as the next generation of the legion. Boys as young as 12 could then be conscripted into years of training and be ready to fight at 16. This new blood would easily outnumber their fathers and together with assimilated tribal recruits from the Mojave, serve as a new legion to invade the NCR. Caesar has ruled for 34 years already, he can wait another 16 or 17

[@redholm]

Well. To be fair he can only wait if he survives the Cancer. Which with the help of the courier or a Auto-Doc(I think I remember talks about him rushing for New Vegas for a full Auto-Doc to help get out the Cancer so he could keep on ruling after they take over the city). Legion winning and Caesar still being alive could make for an interesting future for the Legion and as long as they don't keep on pushing into the NCR they could do real good.

[@facundomontivero2299]

They don't need to take wives. That's what the female slaves are for. And the children are raised by a group of priestesses. The biological parents don't raise their own children.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

seeing this reminds me of how awful the legion would be for most people

[@alexzero3736]

Caesar needs to wake up. 1. He is on the death bed 2. The Strip is a place of gamble, sluts, drugs all sons that Legion hates... Could it really be a new capital? No. Vegas would be punished just like Nipton was punished.

[@dwightkiefer2752]

The problem with Caesar as a leader is that he saw a very specific set of problems in the NCR and probably various others, and set out to solve them in his own government... Only to fail to see that he created his own set of problems, that would see the end of his legion just as easily as every other wasteland faction. Being fair to him though, he's not the only one with this sort of blind spot. Several of fallout's factions have a bit of a fixation on rather specific issues and don't necessarily see the big picture.

[@someguy9293]

I always play NCR. The Legion has...(to put in Ceaser's words) "A fucking footnote."

[@tychoazrephet3794]

I like the speculation as to how well Lucius could manage as Caesar, maybe he would be the Octavius to Edward Sallow’s Julius.

[@wedidntstartthefire1]

In my group's tabletop game, Lanius is still alive so that we can explore an intact Legion territory. It's been very interesting.

[@mad_scientist5597]

I've never played anything like a tabletop rpg or something like what you're probably describing.. would you mind telling me a bit about how a tabletop game can allow you to explore an idea like the intact Legion? I'm not trying to mock your game or something, I'm just curious about this tabletop games stuff I'm out of the loop on

[@wedidntstartthefire1]

@@mad_scientist5597 oh yeah definitely! So it's not the easiest thing to describe without visual aides. Essentially though you have a vague idea of a world map (easy since fallout is a pre made world). Then just have a vague idea of what players might encounter as they traverse the setting, using dice and encounter tables to spice things up with randomness. Is there a specific mechanic or idea that you were wondering about? And if you mean how do you even play, most tabletop rpgs use 4-20 sided dice to play. Usually something like .d20s for actions and skill checks .d10s or 12s for random encounter tables .d6s and 8s for damages .d4s for smaller injuries or for events with 25% odds

[@mad_scientist5597]

@@wedidntstartthefire1 So as a player you play as or control one character? What is the goal of a player? I guess the encounters are made up by the players too. Is there a sort of storyteller person who narrates the stuff? Do they make stuff up on the fly? Are the player statuses written down on papers? The way I understand it is that stuff like the skill system and the SPECIAL stats originate from tabletops and are adapted into videogames and not the other way around, so I reckon that's how you do it too. I'm interested in pretty much just how it works cause I have no idea, but what really intrigued me is how it allows you to explore the idea of Legion led by Lanius. Like what happens in the game that makes you able to explore this kind of idea

[@2WorldWar2]

Early Roman Republic was actually pretty similar to the Legion. Any Empire has to first start as a ruthless, militaristic society. I think it’s wishful thinking by certain characters to just assume such a successful society will be over when their leader dies.

[@haydengrayson6284]

The NCR is similar to the Early Roman Republic; New Vegas' Legion is larping as 13th Legion of Ancient Rome, the army Julius Caesar's Legion used to conquer Rome. The Legion tries, and fails, to be Julius Caesar in order to justify its existence; as much as the NCR fails to emulate pre-war America. Caesar is more like Attila the Hun, whose empire fractured immediately upon his death.

[@Jsipki265]

It’s wishful thinking that an empire wouldn’t fight it self after having a once in a lifetime leader ruling it

[@2WorldWar2]

@@Jsipki265 Augustus, the first emperor of Rome, ruled for his entire life and when he died Rome still existed for hundreds of years.

[@Jsipki265]

@@2WorldWar2 maybe because he built up the structure of Rome, even then ceaser didn’t page to spage copy Rome it’s a lot more barbaric. Like I said a lot of countries have tried to move past their militaristic stage but failed in doing so.

[@milannedic4622]

@@2WorldWar2 Augustus might have been the first official emperor, but Caesar was an emperor in eveything but name, and after his death Augustus had to fight a civil war to unite his empire. Even after he united it, the cracks were to remain, as the imperial period would be mired by civil wars, coups and foreign invasions which would cripple and destroy the empire in the long run until the only thing that remained was the eastern half, dominated by greeks and only bearing similarities to the ancient empire.

[@SpectrumWarrior1]

Boone stated that NCR intel suggested that they had a whole succession lined up and that caesar doesn't command the army anymore.

[@Hulgore]

At Caesar's death a Triumvirat made of Lucius, Lanius and Vulpes seems like what the Legion could expect, it's part of roman history so why not part of the legion

[@devilgamer-rr8639]

People think the Legion will fall after Caesar's death, but the truth is that they are similar to the Brotherhood, and they survived trought 200 years after the dead of his founder, Maxson, we can also use the BoS as an example or the Legion future. Maxson was the one who gave the rules the brotherhood still stick to, and yes, it has changed their objective on each ruler, but they are still esentially the same. The Legion will survive and will still try to capture tribals and make more soldiers, maybe those new rulers won't have the same mentality as Caesar, not the end goal, but what made the Legion powerful wasn't its end goal, it was its mentallity over how to survive, how to fight, and their basic rules. I mean if the Khans survived being just a bunch of raiders without mythos, order nor power; the Legion can.

[@ce5122]

It is not at all a good comparison. The brotherhood are isolationists who mostly keep to themselves and learn to live by themselves. Meanwhile the legion subsists off war and capturing slaves and they don’t even care for Caesar’s ideals they just want to rape and pillage. The Brotherhood is far more sustainable while the legion would just scatter without Caesar.

[@ElClaudioBasado]

5:56 You know that the mongol empire continue after genghis right?

[@elseggs6504]

Guess Kublay founding the Yuan Dynasty was such an effective move that people forget he existed.

[@ElClaudioBasado]

@@elseggs6504 Well my point is that the mongol empire is not a only-man empire like of alexander. And well not everybody wonna know of the descendants of Temuyín like Ogodei or Demchugdongrub.

[@elseggs6504]

@@ElClaudioBasado its so weird that people seem to think one man managed to singlehandedly establish an Empire and make enough Children to be the ancestor of millions. Guess it all just boils down to most people generally being unaware of Mongols. Their Empire stretched from Beijing to Moscow. Rome wasnt built in a day and neither was their Empire.

[@steveaguilar7510]

It’s still a pretty apt comparison. The empire survived for another 60 years but the latter half of those years had the empire split regionally and only pay lip service to Kublai.

[@Brandonhayhew]

Empire inevitable fall and never rise again

[@ReverendFatherUncleRuckus1]

hearts of iron 4 old world blues mod gives us a taste of what its like

[@homunkulus819]

I've never sided with any other faction that's not Yes man or The legion.

[@urubissoldat5452]

Good

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

For me is Mr House and Legion.

[@tyler-aaronnoble4866]

@@AnonymousAnonposter Ah, so that’s what those four quarter political compass memes I keep seeing are all about.

[@tyler-aaronnoble4866]

A man of culture I see.

[@trillmixin6999]

house and yes man

[@emilysmite9356]

Hoi4 Old World Blues kind of shows pretty much what would happen after Caesar's death. It would split into multiple factions and wipe each other out

[@Hulgore]

People make the mistake of thinking that the Legion after wining at Hoover Dam will remain the exact same structure but bigger, but Caesar himself explains that the purpose of its Legion is to defeat the NCR (it is an antithesis), and once the process of negativity (conflict) with the NCR (the thesis), is over, you obtain a synthesis, something new, and the Legion is transformed.

[@tb8952]

Ceaser will not live to see the ncr fall, even if he didn't have a tumor, it would take to long. And if the courier didn't join the side of the legion, any successor would not be able to see that future that Ceaser saw.

[@Hulgore]

@@tb8952 Caesar doesn't need to be alive for this change to happen, this is an historical process that incarnates itself through people, and if these people die, the process continues and incarnates itself in another form. It's not Caesar that makes history, it's History that makes Caesar. Here is a quote of Hegel regarding the emperor Napoleon : "I saw the Emperor - this world soul". Hegel saw this "world soul" through Napoleon, and it this soul, not Napoleon, that truly matters in the end. And we can speculate that this is because the character of Caesar knew this that he didn't bother to find a heir, as history would itself take care of it. Then of course not everyone agrees with hegelian philosophy of history, but Caesar does, and it's important to understand this vision of the world to undurstand what is Caesar in it

[@ElPolloLoco7689]

@@Hulgore Except nobody in the legion has Caesar's intelligence. Without him, the Legion is as good as dead.

[@Hulgore]

@@ElPolloLoco7689 Yes he has a very specific understanding of the situation, but from Caesar's view it's not his intelligence that is making the Legion such as it is, but History as a rational process I think it is the reason why he does'nt bother to find an heir, because from his understanding the transformation of the legion is an objective process that is happening outside of him, and he's himself merely a part of that whole To summarize this you could say that it is not Caesar that makes history but History that makes Caesar

[@FitzgeraldStanburyWeissV]

@@ElPolloLoco7689 Vulpes definitely is a contender for being as intelligent as Caesar.

[@Conquest935]

Such a well written video. happy your channel is growing

[@yaboiii6562]

Thank you!

[@robertcurry389]

9:21 Now I’m a massive nit pick so I’m gonna correct you on this very minor thing. You used the plural for “Decanus.” Vulpes was a Decanus. Which in the Roman Legion and in Caesar’s legion act as basically sergeants. A Decanus would be in charge of a tent group of seven other men. They had very minor leadership responsibilities and practically zero authority over other legionnaires outside of their tent group (AKA a Contubernium) Decanii is the plural of Decanus. 16:22 Another nit pick, Most Roman “citizens” were not actually citizens. They were “provincials.” A provincial was pretty much a peasant. If you were a citizen you were a very slightly more important peasant. Caesar is using auxiliary forces the same way the Romans did. He arms, trains, and teaches his auxiliary forces how to fight and he provides for them. In exchange they fight for him when he needs them as non citizens. The real Roman Empire did not just leave conquered regions to do their own thing as long as they paid tribute. The Romans kept tight control and regulation of all conquered territory. The way the kept control however was by force and order. Caesars legion instead uses fear and terror to keep their subjects in line.

[@RagnarCayuse]

If only Caesar had an Octavian to bugger and name his heir

[@that_damn_kiddo]

So I guess this wasn't your last Caesar video lol, but I'm glad because that one was really good and I am no about to binge your channel. Already subscribed, keep it up! Love all your NV faction/character analysis so far!

[@Faithful_Solaire]

If crushing despair is your thing go ahead and read The Road. If that’s not your thing then skip it

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Caesar died, Lanius fled into exile, and the Legion's forces in Nevada and Arizona fractured into squabbling over who would succeed them. In Texas, however, the Legate Constantine prevailed as the successor to Caesar, respected as the most senior officer in the East. His rule is tenuous, however, as he contends with the Texas Brotherhood of Steel and the forces of the ascendant Republic of Texas. Some of Caesar's laws have been forsaken; stimpacks med-x and anti-radiation meds have been permitted to keep more soldiers in the fight, the use of firearms and more advanced gear have been made more commonplace to contend with the knights of the Brotherhood and the ludicrously over-armed soldiers of Texas, and an elite corps of power-armored Cataphracti has been established. Officers that protested held their tongues once some of their number began to find themselves on crosses throughout San Antonio, the Legion's capitol in the region, while others exiled themselves, hoping to claim lordship further West among the squabbling remnants of Caesar's failed invasion of the NCR. Rumors have begun to rise that Lanius yet lives, and is building a new army in Mexico to challenge Constantine for command of the Legion. The brutal tribals in the South would indeed be naturally inclined to such a ruler, and few journey South of the mighty Rio Grande - fewer return.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

@@Gamer-ry6xy I call the guy Constantine because I don't think Joshua has much interest in leading the Legion that sentenced him to burn to death while falling off a cliff. I am inclined to have Constantine always wear a golden mask much like Emperor Aurelian did, and have it revealed that he's a Ghoul, though not sure that would fly too well lore wise and could just oversaturate the character.

[@AlexRoivas]

With Caesar dead will the Legions lands be divided by the high ranking officers of the Legion sort of like how when Alexander died his generals carved up his massive Empire

[@bigboss4178]

Legion burned the West after the ending cause I always play as Legion California DELENDA Est

[@RyoKasai25]

But by burning the West they end up burning themselves.

[@Dorkeydaze]

They won’t be able to conquer the west Caesar will die and the legate knows nothing of dialectics he sees the west as land to conquer not a place for the ideas of the East and west to unite.

[@Valencetheshireman927]

True to Caesar, amicus!

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

@@Dorkeydaze Sure they can, NCR is weak and run by idiots

[@suspiciousaction4063]

@@malekiththeeternityking5433 implying the legion isn't run by idiots as well

[@DarthHellion2]

I think if the legion had a central location, their own "Rome", things would be different.

[@FirstFamilyCharger]

True. They needed a physical cultural hub to blueprint things on.

[@cpob2013]

I think once the Mojave is pacified, caesar ought to retire his older troops, as much as half. He should settle them in box forts like the old Roman legion camps scattered across the Mojave to serve as local militia. They work day jobs like crafting and ranching to be productive and take wives to have children and raise the next generation for Caesars legion. That would really secure the legacy. If each veteran had 2 or 3 adult sons, the ranks would swell and easily overwhelm the NCR

[@DarthHellion2]

@@cpob2013 Caesar could also use his connections with the Followers to help educate his newest soldiers

[@dport9563]

Dialogue of NPCs states that in Arizona the economy is said to be flourishing.

[@IRL_Lore]

>the legion goes away if Caesar dies I've never jived with this argument because it isn't like the office of emperor died with Augustus. Or the Iron Throne vanished when Aenus I Targaryen (or whatever) died. The idea that this unifying, already-existing culture and hierarchy would just vanish with Caesar is absurd. No one is going to throw away a useful idea as demonstrably effective as Caesar's forced tribal unification project any more than human lust for power will magically vanish

[@nottodaywillj2723]

Oh but it will, ceasar dies with his vision of the legion, not even his subordinates know what would be next. If he dies the Legion is put into civil war between the big three, vulpes, lucius, lanius. The legion could also have the chance of slave revolts etc, it will only last so long, by 2281, they had been around since the late 2240s. 40 years pailing in comparison to the 100+ NCR had done and with success.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

yeah but this isint really a kingdom, its 10,000 dudes in hockey gear

[@TKsh1]

Considering Caesar itself being a symbol of the Legion and his fragile health, and Lanius having a war-minded approach, they would probably destroy themselves after Caesar's eventual death. They would basically split in minor factions scattered across his territories.

[@CreativeUsernameHere-r1k]

Don't worry, that's not a problem in my playtroughs...

[@sethleoric2598]

Yeah, they'd just follow actual Rome and have a massive Civil War over the right to rule.

[@urubissoldat5452]

@@sethleoric2598 Or they all follow Lanius who is a shockingly rational person

[@sethleoric2598]

@@urubissoldat5452 ye

[@aiden-sy3ex]

The Legion would, but the new society formed from establishing Vegas as Rome would not. It's a matter of when Caesar dies, not if

[@jaykkinell7267]

I feel like the legion will be seen again but much different than we last saw it

[@dylanmilne6683]

And the NCR would pursue the Legion across the Colorado.... Yeah how about no?

[@nottodaywillj2723]

Nah, NCR will kick em into the gates of hell

[@boneman-calciumenjoyer8290]

I mean, the NCR can't even hold the dam at the beginning of the game, so them perusing a force into enemy territory while already being overstretched is impossible.

[@YungMonie007]

Letting kaiser live and defeating lanius with dialogue where always my favourite option...

[@ozza-3493]

Great stuff mate!

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks mate!

[@elbigman2815]

You and radking are my favourite fallout youtubers Amazing video!

[@yaboiii6562]

Thank you!

[@sorcikator993]

I'll always said this: Caesar's book on the Roman Empire seem to lack more than a few chapters. For example, he seem to not understand that the Roman armies had the upper hand thanks to their technological superiority as well as their tactics. Which means that, if they had guns at the time, they would 100% use them on a large scale. The idea that bringing a knife to a gun fight because "guns can misfire or break" is laughable at best. The Roman Republic and consequent Empire was build on a very solid bureaucratic system -something that Caesar criticized in the NCR-. But that same bureaucracy is what allowed the Roman civilization to last centuries in a time where the fastest way of communication was horseback riding. Finally, and that's the more unforgivable: Caesar shockingly missed the part where the Romans spend AT LEAST as much time fighting among each other than they did external enemies. Especially when an Emperor died. So to think that his Legion was more stable and more build to last than the NCR was a joke. In the very best scenario for the Legion, where to Courier help them win Hoover Dam and save Caesar, Caesar still die a decade later at best, and the Legion is unable to break the Rocky Mountains into California, first because of that natural barrier, but also because now, they are no longer fighting a few tired and under-equipped troopers that just want to go home; they are fighting the full might of the NCR, with their industrial infrastructure in full defense mode, with troopers and even volunteers citizens fighting on their turf to defend their home. The war on California will be in the end the death of the Legion, if it doesn't have the decency to crumble fast enough on itself.

[@talkaboutwacky]

I never realized Lanius unmasked was Alchestbreach lulllz!!

[@AidenRKrone]

If both Caesar and Lanius died during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, within a single year, the Legion would break apart into splinter groups squabbling amongst themselves, with each splinter group being led by centurions, vexillari, and other high-ranking legionaries who claim to be the "true" successor of Caesar. The Legion is not the kind of organization that can continue _ad hoc_ after its leader's demise. As Marcus poignantly says, the Legion follows Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. In the event that Caesar dies but Lanius lives, the Legion would still fall apart, albeit over a period of several years, rather than a couple or so years. Lanius is a warlord, not a statesman; as Joshua Graham says, Lanius has no interest in politics or diplomacy. His singular purpose is to conquer every nation, tribe, town, and group that stands before him. His all-consuming rage is suicidal for the Legion as a whole. Within ten or fifteen years, he will have exhausted the Legion's troop supply and run the tribe into the ground.

[@redpepper876]

Also even if the courier didnt kill ceasar he would eventually die due to his brain tumor so the legion is doomed no matter what

[@elliotyourarobot]

Agreed he will unite the vandals against him

[@purpledevilr7463]

With Player intervention, the Legion can really last. With DLCs you can even Nuke California & clear the north of all tribes except the ones looking to assimilate.

[@johanbatcron1206]

The whole "Legion will fail because it won't last" argument is really common, but it is also really common to left out an essential part of that question. Which is, The Legion is not supposed to last. The Legion in its current form was never meant to last in Ceasar's master plan. He wanted to invade the west and destroy the NCR. Also as Ceasar explicitly explains that this is not because of hate, but instead out of necessity. The NCR's bearucratic and greedy ways is more or less bringing back ideologies and mindsets that caused the Great War in the first place (atleast in Ceasar's mind). Ceasar believe that this is a threat for the New World Order and thus the NCR must be destroyed for the good of mankind. However, he also realize that the Legion would also change in a scenario like that. This brings in his ideas about Hegelian Dialectis. The thesis (NCR) and the antithesis (The Legion), will eventually cause an synthesis. Both values from the NCR and The Legion will become one and all its flaws removed, which would result in a new World Order. That is Ceasar's plan.

[@ce5122]

which is idiotically wrong

[@ordinaryman5070]

Finally someone who understands Caesar.

[@johanbatcron1206]

@@ce5122 Well, yes. But my comment isn’t supposed to be about what is right or what I believe. It is supposed to be about what Caesar believes, based on in-game dialogue.

[@ladyalicent705]

Even if the Legion wins, I don’t necessarily think they would live happily ever after. I remember something Ulysses said, “Once the Legion reaches the sea, it will turn on itself and die” that line had always chilled me down to my very being, and he’s absolutely right. The Legion relies on battle campaigns, they’re fighters, conquerors, once they run out of people to kill, of territory to annex, do you think they’ll just be content? That the battle lust will just vanish? No. They’ll turn on the only people left, each other. Their technophobia will prevent them from crossing the sea, so just as Ulysses said, they will turn on each other and die…

[@osamaKareem2]

What you believe that insane ulsseys

[@ce5122]

they also rely heavily on slaves which you would need to constantly go to war for

[@poymannyng1845]

​@@osamaKareem2 As no-bark would say, don't trust a man who doesn't have something wrong up there

[@Yes-Man1337]

Wouldn’t they just go North? LOL

[@BilboBaggMan]

Wait there's people who really think the NCR who can't even clear out raiders from the hub can actually defeat the greatest fighting force of Mars's new realm?

[@chadivanbober4026]

Same people that spam "the legion doesn't use guns" after encountering some recruit legionairs with machetes with a level 6 courier.

[@firstnamelastname3173]

@@chadivanbober4026 "The Legion doesn't use guns!!1!11!!!1!" *Ignores the very first fucking cutscene in the game where a Legionaire is sniping people in The Strip*

[@RyoKasai25]

@@firstnamelastname3173 I think you're confused. The one sniping raiders is a NCR Veteran Ranger (and he's doing it outside the Strip). The only legionaires we see in the cutscene are the ones running around with machetes and spears.

[@firstnamelastname3173]

@@RyoKasai25 no there was also a shot with a legionary sniping people with a rifle as someone is directing other legionaries.

[@firstnamelastname3173]

@@RyoKasai25 oh wait nvm it was a pair of binoculars, it looked like a rifle to me the first time I saw the cutscene. Still though you see a crap ton of legionaries using rifles and shotguns

[@stormbunevitch4933]

Fun fact: Snuffles the Molerat has more intelligence points than Caesar

[@alt-monarchist]

There's actually 5 endings. I am literally appalled that these Video Bloggers don't know that there are 5 endings

[@juanferabud]

What ending is the fifth?

[@joekost1038]

@@juanferabud elijah ending

[@fawkewe]

6:13 even if he was aware that would be a 1000 years if the legion stayed the same which it doesn’t intend to.

[@victorbressler7156]

the ending i go for house ending with ceasar still alive and killing lanius

[@kj_heichou]

So the Legion still fails

[@urubissoldat5452]

@@kj_heichou maybe, Caesar may leave Lucius, Aurelius or elevate any other meritorious Legionary to Legate

[@taxult]

it would be better if you leave both alive, caesar will lose his greatest military commander, symbol and his tool

[@urubissoldat5452]

@Woobski We don't know. Almost every occasion we here Legate it is in reference to Lanius.

[@ForgottenNoble]

I think the legion is a means to an end that perhaps after the conquests ended he would create a senate of the more intellectual legionaries. Then begin proper nation building but that’s reaching pretty far. Would be cool though.

[@spiffygonzales5160]

I think the Legion ending is canon. *HEAR ME OUT* So in fallout 4 theres no Legion to be found. Meaning they didn't expand east. As we all know in the dialogue with Lanius the Legion can not hold both the east and west. So if they were beaten at Hoover dam, and we all know the NCR was too widely spread to successfully attack, why didn't the Legion begin moving further east? Did Caesar die? Not likely, because only Caesar really understood why he needed to take the dam so badly (to get electricity, modernise, and provide a stable government). Others like Lanius may have tried to take it, but after they failed a couple times they'd have to give up and get forced back. Did the Legion get destroyed or die off? Evidently not. If they did you'd see numerous Legion remnants and warlords scattered around in raider gangs hanging people from crosses trying to rebuild the Legion in fallout 4. The only reason they wouldn't is if rather than maintaining their wandering army status quo, they actually set up in the west. Caesar was the only one who wanted to change that and stay put. Did the Legion simply waste away continuously assaulting Hoover dam just to honor Caesar? Very unlikely. While Lanius was definitely adamant on taking the dam for Caesar, I dont see any of the other Major Legion leaders as so braindead that they'd waste their entire nation attacking a place to honor their leader, and in game Lanius either dies or leaves to continue attacking the east. Was it simply too far? Maybe, but even so you should see groups of scouts or maybe a frumentari in game 4. You could argue Nate didn't see them... but a trained special forces veteran (I believe... a prewar human who knows how to operate power armor. Seems unlikely to be a normal soldier) would have been able to spot them. After all Caesar had spies stretching well past his eastern claims as well as the west all the way into NCR propper. Honestly I think the ONLY way the Legion wouldn't even receive a mention in FO4 is if the people hadn't heard of them. The institute was more or less a ghost tale and it was the talk of the town in every town, so a bunch of remnants of a semi roman empire crucifying people would have definitely been something people talked about. Of course theres the odd curve ball. Does Texas have it's own nation and ended up fighting the Legion, is Enclave still alive in the Midwest somewhere (Chicago) and start going all patriot on them, did the friggin aliens from 3 come down and just vaporize them all? Who knows. But curveballs aside, I think it's clear the Legion won in FONV.

[@OtherDalfite]

Here's another theory, fallout 4s writing was lazy and boring, and it's devs didn't really care to tie in any of the past events from the previous 2 games

[@spiffygonzales5160]

@@OtherDalfite Previous 6 actually. New vegas, 3,2,1, tactics, BoS. While I agree, it's still pretty much up to the fans to weave through the lore. I will say I dont consider 76 canon. Not because it's a bad game but because it goes so blatantly against the lore its impossible to fit into canon without rewriting much of games 1, 2, and 3.

[@tentedkarma7465]

True

[@urubissoldat5452]

Boston is more than a a thousand miles away from the Legion. They would not be that far east.

[@cowbeanboi412]

The thing with fallout is most of the news is regional an example of this would be cats On the west coast they are believed to be extinct but you can find them in 4 meaning they aren't Most people in fallout consider their small town their own world while it's highly likely there are remenants and spies I doubt the Commonwealth or DC would have them or news of them

[@acutalgrove]

Another great video yaboiii! I love listening to your uploads, keep it up!

[@yaboiii6562]

Appreciate it!

[@askindo5466]

i think what would be really interesting to see would be a third triumvirate type thing where the 3 most powerful and influential members of the legion that being Lucius Vulpes and Lanius all share power and they would all be able to play to their strengths Vulpes being the tactician and maybe carrying out a gorilla war in the NCR propping up gangs since we do know that they exist and in large numbers Lucius being the statesman and building instructor for the people who live in legion land and Lanius being the figurehead and the general who leads campaigns for more resources and land. this also mirrors how the original Caesar gained power by ruling Rome with 2 other powerful men and what happened after the original Caesars death where his most powerful generals also shared power over Rome. how likely this lore wise im not sure since i doubt Lanius would want to share power but it would be definitely interesting from a narrative point of veiw and could be a interesting state to find the legion if we ever get to see them again

[@chalkwizard1292]

I think Caesar knew he had little time left with his tumour and was trying to get the Courier to be his heir.

[@FumblsTheSniper]

Disclaimer for “The Road”: It is possibly the saddest story I have ever read. It shook my world at age 15, and literature had been my #1 free time activity my whole life.

[@Wolverine-ky9gk]

Legion needed more content

[@moondrip2163]

Good thing modders are pumping more and more of that sweet Lore-friendly content

[@Wolverine-ky9gk]

@@moondrip2163 its mainly for consoles

[@danpasto3849]

Ok so how cool is it that we are still debating political hypotheticals of an 11 year old game?

[@ihazplawe]

it's because this game dared to actually have intresting political writing instead of extreme opposites

[@carbondragon]

I was born in the late 50s and grew up in the 60s and 70s. My science fiction of choice showed a more optimistic view of humanity such that after an apocalypse, our civilization would rise again (similar to the NCR) because humanity was both cooperative and indomitable. In today's world, our movies and TV and books all represent humanity as evil, selfish, and worthless with a very thin veneer of civilization that crumbles if the bus is late one morning or the cappuccino machine is broken. The minute anything happens, every man woman and child grabs the nearest sharp object and stabs the nearest other human (related or not) -- aka the Legion. It certainly seems like the Legion is more likely, but if that were true, why would there EVER be a democracy? How could it possibly develop? And is our modern sense of humanity likely to result in a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[@t2force212]

I believe the BEST case for a Legion civil war would actually be the result of leadership challenge from the centurions rather than a spat between Vulpes and Lanius. If Lanius survives and fails to take the dam, the Monster of the East picture becomes shattered. Many Centurions will see this failure as a sign of weakness in the Legate and they will try for his spot. It won't be a full civil war and more like a hostile fracturing with many Warlords coming about. The Warlords will still recognise themselves as part of the legion however cohesion throughout the ranks would be shot to hell. Anyway nice video this is a topic I love to talk about and I feel not many have done it justice. You definently have so good job.

[@yaboiii6562]

Thank you!

[@tylerharris7081]

The legion in its current form would certainly dies but it's legacy would likely last hundreds of years. The former leader would likely form their own successor kingdoms emulating their now truly deified founder. They may even incorporate some of the NCR's strengths similar to how Caesar envisioned.

[@dport9563]

NCR may have corruption but those in charge maintain a stable land. Clearly the main issue with NCR is not having police academies and conservation practices .

[@LovroZimak]

FNV was supposed to take place between 2 and 3. So that timeline makes Legion much more reasonable.

[@tinyveil]

This is a Fool’s Errand, the legion would mop the win at hoover anyway. True to Kaisar.

[@DarkOmegaMK2]

The only mopping they're gonna do is when they mop the blood and guts of their own men after miserably losing at the second battle of Hoover Dam. F*ck Kaisar.

[@LanMandragon1720]

@@DarkOmegaMK2I don't even like the Legion but they'd win without intervention. The state of the NCR forces throughout the game. Make this pretty clear to anyone paying attention.

[@DarkOmegaMK2]

@@LanMandragon1720 Ok, since you are "playing attention" let me highlight something for you, of course you don't need me to tell you this if you were paying attention. Through the travels on the divide, you learn that the NCR had a huge army that was originally going to be sent to New Vegas to secure the place and reinforce through the first battle on Hover Dam, but due to mysterious circumstances the divide crashed, hard, and all the soldiers were lost. Now, if you were paying attention, you'll realize that it's the courier who did this by accident, which means that without the intervention of the courier the ncr's forces would be bolstered and heavily reinforced. I mean you don't need me to tell you this because anyone paying attention knows of this, right? Only an idiot would not know. lmao!

[@boneman-calciumenjoyer8290]

@@DarkOmegaMK2 please be respectful, were talking about a video game here, so there is no reason to be hostile. And now to your argument: No, the NCR has no possible reinforcements after the Divide got the "nuclear treatment". It's stated that the NCR was overstretched as is, so they can't spare any more troops to hold Hoover dam. Mr. House put a legion victory at 70% without any intervention from the PC. Next of: you were assuming "no intervention" does mean the courier wouldn't exist. That's not the scenario we're talking about tho. The "no intervention" scenario assumes that the courier died after being shot in the head near Goodsprings. So the Divide is still a smoking hellhole. I hope that explains why the dude you're arguing with is right in his assessment, that the NCR portrait in NV is more or less dead in the water, if the courier doesn't save their sorry behinds. This however would require that the courier is siding with the NCR, which we sadly can't prove, since we don't know which ending is canon... not yet at least. Ask if you want me to clear anything up about new Vegas, I'm by no means a lore master, but I put over 1000 hours into the game so far and I know it rather well. All that said, I hope you've a great day Mr. Bear. All that matters in the end is that you're enjoying fallout!

[@individual7046]

I hope the Legion survives I would love to see them again, though I doubt Bethesda could write them properly

[@Punished_Rustles]

Ave, true to Caesar.

[@Dorkeydaze]

I know some of this is memes but the fact people larp for the legion is well....

[@BlueBedouin]

@@Dorkeydaze Shut up.

[@Dorkeydaze]

@@BlueBedouin If you wanted me to be quite don’t comment to me Einstein.

[@BlueBedouin]

@@Dorkeydaze Yeah shut up.

[@Dorkeydaze]

@@BlueBedouin I’ll shut up when you do :)

[@KongtheGikStretcher]

What do you mean what happens? After crushing the NCR with the help of a certain courier…

[@paulycoleman98]

Blasphemy! True to Caesar!

[@drinkinbuddy8264]

Great vid, subscribed

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks Drinking Buddy!

[@garydaniel8233]

Can you do a post game Institute?

[@IinferusS]

This

[@dawndarklight44]

Canonically, The legion has the best military soldiers, strategists, supply lines, discipline, morale, and the best current military position without courier intervention. and/or with courier help.

[@nottodaywillj2723]

But weapons (using machetes against trained soldiers shooting a service rifle), the tactic (different to strategy) is waves of machete recruits then armed primes. It's even said the only reason NCR retreats is low morale accounting for less retreat, and running out of ammo (accounting for more) after wiping out a shit ton of legionaires. Winning the Mojave would cost the legion too many lives in the fight and put them at a stop before the Mojave outpost.

[@koderamerikaner5147]

They even have a mining and metallurgy industry, as we can see from them being able to mint coins.

[@danf3201]

The NCR has working vehicles (trucks, trains), an Air Force with working tiltrotor craft, a commander who already beat the Legion before (Hanlon). The Legion's soldiers, while well conditioned, are armed with crude hand-to-hand weapons in a world of automatic firearms, in terms of their own guns they carry on average a lever or bolt-action rifle, something considered primitive by any modern army in our age, let alone a world where laser and magnetic accellerator weapons exist. Their body armor is simillalry primitive. They are promoted based on battlefield performance, which is not in fact a good way to choose soldiers for command and leadership. Centurions (equivilant to commissioned officers) are according to Caeser, promoted by killing enough enemies ("When a man has killed enough foes to be made a Centurion, he can instead challenge a Praetorian in a fight to the death"). This does not teach them the many intricate and invaluable tactical, logistical and other very much not directly related to combat skills and tasks an officer must be familliar with.

[@RedScorpion92]

Surprised they didn't use a ghoul model for Lanius to make him look scarred wouldn't be perfect but a little more accurate at least

[@thebiss1846]

I am quite confident the Legion would ultimately break apart into smaller factions. It formed itself out of the many tribes it consumed & it will no doubt explode into many new & different tribes. All still holding influences of the Legion in the height of its power, be it the armor, weapons, or traditions it held.

[@LRodz279]

My head canon is that the Legion dissolved but the remaining remnants became like the Legion from the Frontier

[@rootin222]

Can you do a video about the Great khans, Powder Gangers , or Boomers after the battle of Hoover dam or post game ?

[@adudeontheinternet8246]

Without courier intervention the NCR loses the battle of hoover damn badly and their retreat in the mojave is cut off as the monorail is destroyed, the divide is extremely dangerous, and the way to the Mojave outpost is swarmed by legionnaries. The NCR's economy is strained, as they are causing inflation by printing money for paying their soldiers for other things. It's more then likely they've banked a significant portion of their economy on the mojave. They would crush the NCR but with losses and occupying it would be an issue-- I feel like their best bet would be to expand north and east, and once they have the strength they need return to grab the NCR in a strangle hold.

[@PKFireFawx]

California Delenda Est