Why Caesar's Legion would win in Fallout: New Vegas without Courier Intervention

[@ates423]

*when the tumbleweeds start speaking latin*

[@lakynpayne6476]

*Me, who took latin throughout High School and College:* Illud mihi tempus luceat

[@lowesmanager8193]

Tumble...what? Do you mean Wind Brahmin?

[@FilthyPeasant6]

Even worse, Arizonan Latin.

[@sulfurical7439]

*Pueris autem his non Venimus*

[@TDenterpriser]

RETRIBUTION!

[@blakerierson3165]

Alternate title: Benny Uses a 10 mm

[@creepmen1867]

no no a 45 hollow point

[@KinoTechUSA69]

@@creepmen1867 A 10mm is like a 45, but for men.

[@creepmen1867]

@@KinoTechUSA69 yes

[@brettrfalcon730]

Benny uses a 45-70

[@totallynotapaidshill9140]

@Old Acc Benny uses a missile launcher

[@setflavius8049]

So this is why the NCR has so many side quests. They need your help and are literally fucked without you.

[@georgemurdock7670]

@Gizio the NCR is great and kimball is cool and you should join them.

[@georgemurdock7670]

@Indoctrinated Truth the legion questline of frontier was great and one of the best fallout content i ever played especially the voss vault and when they say what i sayed they are absolutely right about that

[@georgemurdock7670]

@Indoctrinated Truth when did they do this? I crippled a slave just because a random legionary liked the sound of him screaming, when you rescue AJ, she implied she was rapped often, and they murder constantly. And the enclave are the evil ones, + they didn’t even supported voss. So how did they paint them bad? Last time they had power they went on mass shootings and gassed people. This time they only adultnapped some folk

[@georgemurdock7670]

@Indoctrinated Truth dude you cant join the enclave cuz the enclave wants to kill all mutants. Its like a black wants to join the KKK, with the difference, that there is no law keeping the enclave in check to not shoot every undesirable on sight. Also the enclave cant be paramilitaristic because they are part of the US forces, they are fully militaristic, and idk if trumps presidentcy is even cannon in fallout so i really want to see your sources where the mod sayed that.

[@Nitrous_oxide_addict]

@@georgemurdock7670 well the ncr troopers are annoying so yes

[@mr_beezlebub3985]

Makes sense. The NCR couldn't even spare one of their own to go kill some giant ants blocking a road.

[@Dorkeydaze]

Virgin NCR farmer conscript vs CHAD House mini platoon mark 2 robot.

[@detonatingpunch381]

Greed is a deadly sin people say.

[@detonatingpunch381]

Don’t reply. I’ve seen that comment before the hacked my girlfriend one.

[@mr_beezlebub3985]

@@detonatingpunch381 I hate spam comments like that

[@some_shitposting_idiot3023]

And couldn't send a sniper squad with infantry support to clear out the fiends

[@joshuakim5240]

I'm surprised that you didn't use one of House's lines stating that the Legion had a 70% chance to win based on House's calculations, so even House with his hyper advanced knowledge confirms that the Legion is the most likely victor of the Mojave without serious amounts of Courier intervention.

[@dodes2698]

An excellent point though I do love the irony of positing something like statistical odds in the setting of (New) Vegas.

[@joshuakim5240]

@@dodes2698 If anything. i'm just curious as to how in the hell House calculated that at all.

[@CarboKill]

@@joshuakim5240 House deigns himself able to calculate the odds of a human as capable as him being born in the foreseeable future, so I'd like to know what mad maths he's capable of as well lol

[@brandonlyon730]

Though winning is one thing, actually being able to hold it is entirely different. Unless someone helps get rid of Ceasars tumor he’ll die no matter what and Lanius will lead his legion. And Lanius may be a great general but he is no statesman, the Legion will enviablely fall apart as the invade and take economic model will only go so far until it stops working.

[@juzi2892]

any play through favoring a faction probably would have led to biased opinions, although this is a good point.

[@tartalja]

As a player you get pretty good insight of current Mojave situation in just first encounters with NCR and Legion. When you enter Primm, you find out that: prisoners broke out of local NCR controlled prison, formed an outlaw group called "Powders gangers", killed sheriff and his wife, and pinned locals into one building. NCR is just standing by, in 2 tents, helpless do to anything. Then you approach Nipton. You see smoke rising. Further in, Powder gangers are crucified on telephone beams and entire town is in flames. Its like a scene from Blood Meridian. You advance towards town hall just so you get completely surrounded by bunch of weirdos, in like 2 seconds. These guys don't fuck around. Their leader, in creepy voice, tells that he'll spare you from crucifixion, just so you can spread the tale of carnage. Later towards mid game you also see NCR troppers getting shitfaced in New Vegas, while Ceasar has child soldiers running drills. NCR needs less paper pushing and more whatever Boone is doing, if they want to win this war.

[@tutorialboss4090]

This!

[@diamonddog5190]

"More whatever Boone is doing" 🤣🤣🤣

[@AL-lh2ht]

Yea the issue was the NCR barley controller Vegas and not consolidated power due to the geopolitics of the region. They also massively underfunded the projects which is basically a attempt at colonization. It should be noted NCR actually dealing with the region instead of legion which mostly just attacking actually trying to control things.

[@somenerd1182]

The point of troopers getting drunk is beyond stupid. Soldiers who are off duty get drunk, that's just how it is. It has happened throughout history.

[@Wsnewname]

My takeaway from the NCR quests is that if they want to win, they either have to get just as brutal as the Legion against their enemies, or they (by which I really mean, the Courier) have to go above and put in a *lot* of hard work to build coalitions with the peoples of the Mojave to genuinely have their support.

[@johnrichardson7310]

So the Mojave Campaign was the NCR Vietnam. Poor ncr troops.

[@yaboiii6562]

That’s the best real world example - and also thanks for the sub!

[@Fr0st1989]

NCR vets get sweaty when the rocks start speaking Latin

[@johnrichardson7310]

@@Fr0st1989 ha ha that's very funny!

[@shadysam7161]

@@Fr0st1989 NCR vets start getting terrified when they see the sun has turned into Sol Invictus.

[@fikrifadillah3247]

I don't understand

[@Kardamitiano]

We must not forget that, in Fallout New Vegas, we barely see Caesar's standing army. We don't know how actual Legion controlled cities are. That would be very interesting to see.

[@fallout0624]

The way the Legion cities sound from all we've heard in game is they do fairly well for themselves. They are missing out on Chems and other more modern conveniences but they have much more security compared to their NCR equivalent

[@fallout0624]

@@nkosig4995 that seems to be the case for both Factions, the NCR is obviously close to having a complete logistical collapse (Mojave Outpost being the only way they can resupply) Legion, well they havent developed agriculture like they should have but they are still in a conquering phase at the beginning of the conflict and throughout but if that fails they have no supplies

[@nkosig4995]

@@fallout0624 I think the ncr will do fine. The whole Mojave outpost thing does seem like a bit of a plot whole though. But if you destroy it, it doesn't really collapse the ncr. Honestly I think they just didn't have the time to make it a whole thing I guess.

[@fallout0624]

@@nkosig4995 odds are with the NCR outpost they didnt have time to show the effects it would have on the NCR

[@Fylhtqr1]

Some smart folks made a mod for hearts of iron 4 called old World Blues you can see its extent in the older versions wich is more or less confirmed when Lanius says he was storming Denver.

[@brettfeggestad12]

“I promise I won’t get too political” Me after 3 drinks:

[@purpleelemental3955]

Everything in this whole world is political

[@NorthEevee]

Well, that's what you get with a faction based on great philosophy, and terrible means. The legion is right, but only in the context of the western wastes. Put them in any other scenario, and they're the default bad guys who can't be reasoned with. But uhh, yeah, I also lost some respect points from NCR supporters after a few strong beers...

[@DonRoyalX]

@@NorthEevee I always have to side with NCR bcoz of their general treatment of humanity. I cannot deal with the fact that women and the weak are enslaved and brutalised. It’s just not right. I will always join the NCR, no matter the context Caesar’s Legion need destroying

[@sudhanshupanta8108]

@@DonRoyalX ngl reading that made me cringe

[@DonRoyalX]

@@sudhanshupanta8108 yeah ik made me cringe writing it. But I stand by it lol

[@imperiallegionnaire8344]

We could easily beat the stormcloaks. Wait, your talking about someone else?

[@yaboiii6562]

"No lollygagging"

[@realdaggerman105]

@@voryngaming 200 years ago in fallout was just modern day, more or less.

[@stormwolf8770]

@@realdaggerman105 I'm very confused what does he mean by 200 years?

[@odsttrooper3724]

@@stormwolf8770 OP is referencing skyrim, however the modern fallout games (excluding 76) take place in 2277, 2282, and 2287

[@minihalkoja590]

What the Stormcloaks seem to forget is that Empire keeps the Aldmeri Dominion out. Down with Ulfric, the killer of kings!

[@laserdiscisawesome1263]

Caesar to General Oliver: Truth is Kid, game was rigged from the start

[@yaboiii6562]

*Teleports behind Oliver* nothing personal kid.

[@Dorkeydaze]

Mr. House watching with Jane in the background be like:😂

[@doperks7271]

Chief hanlon was a great casting choice , dude only have like 5 to 10 minutes of dialogue and he is one of the most memorable characters

[@crenfick7750]

Then we got the voice actor for Oliver...

[@sleven1160]

@@crenfick7750 I heard that Oliver was supposed to have his own unique voice actor, but the scripts got mixed up and instead his lines were read by the generic voice actor

[@crenfick7750]

@@sleven1160 Yeah, but it's almost shocking how bad that actor was. Like, I feel like if you picked someone off the street there would be a good chance they'd deliver that last line better. What was his issue?

[@monkekun3033]

@@crenfick7750 Yuri lowathowel?

[@yourdadsotherfamily3530]

House, Raul etc etc a lot of greatttttt voice actors out there in this game! -the other day a homeless guy in freeside said something I overheard “huh? I didn’t eat corn the other day?!” LOL probably examining his feces I almost died laughing with my gf the other day when I heard it for the first time

[@sterilebroth8933]

Shows how a good game is still being talked about 10 years later

[@yaboiii6562]

10 year anniversary last week!

[@goatops9872]

Crazy how Bethesda gave obsidian 18 months to make fnv and it's better then what they make

[@Titan13335]

@@goatops9872 I don't know what it is, but games that are made in a short time nearly always turn out to be amazing

[@CedricCaffa]

@@Titan13335 it’s the people behind the games. No Man’s Sky was shit but because the developers had morals and knew people wouldn’t buy it if it was bad they kept updating it and it’s a great game now. And not to mention that obsiadian is a great studio overall.

[@frumentarii6542]

Its the best after nuclear apocalypse simulator

[@nicholasgutierrez9940]

You know, people like to jab Lanius as some kind of one dimensional grug brain monster. Yet you can use logic to talk him down and he knows the Legion's weaknesses. He recognizes that the Legion has issues from his experience in the east. Ulysses says that Lanius is more of a symbol than a man. His origin is unknown, likely made up by Caesar. You get different answers from different people. The whole "legion imploding" assumes that Lanius follows the myth more than the man. If everything known about Lanius is made up by Caesar, then it is hard to really judge him. Personally, the Lanius we see during that brief conversation at the end battle shows he isn't as stupid as most people think. And he can more than likely lead the Legion well, with added support from advisors.

[@yaboiii6562]

I agree with you Nicholas. Caesar states the Lanius' has no loyalty to the Legion - only to him. But the dialogue with Lanius indicates that the Legion's survival is of the utmost importance to him -even at the cost of his own ego. Caesar wants to conquer the NCR as he sees it as his destiny, whereas Lanius recognizes that doing so might spell the end for the Legion itself.

[@yaboiii6562]

RadTheLad very valid point!

[@nicholasgutierrez9940]

@RadTheLad Yeah that's true although we don't know the exact context for that is. Assuming the courier got drunk, tripped on a cactus, and died... There's quite a few ways that particular scenario could have played out. From the ending, it says Caesar's heirs. It implies multiple people organizing the chase for them. If we assume that Lanius is among them, per your argument, we have to acknowledge his perspective. First- To him, he just witnessed a bunch of power armored people run over the NCR like it was nothing. And unlike Caesar, he doesn't have the foresight to know what the Enclave are. (assuming they had no presence in Legion states) Who are these people? Are they a threat to us? Where did they come from? In his mindset, the logical conclusion would be to send parties after them to gain information. The ending says hundreds but doesn't clarify the time frame. It's very possible that Lanius sent a few men, saw it was idiotic to keep doing it but other leaders disagreed. I do give it to you though, not a good decision. But I find it odd that the ending says they are chased to Arizona. Seems really unlikely that they would survive long in Legion core territory but whatever. Second- If Lanius did go after them, it's basically the go to response. The NCR sees the Enclave, retired or active, as terrorists and war criminals. The Legion's response isn't that idiotic given the context given that the NCR would also do the same thing. I do find it odd that the game doesn't give more endings to the remnants. Seems like an oversight that the faction with a "shoot to kill" policy for Enclave (I assume this is the case since they are terrorists, and if you become a NCR terrorist yourself you are shot on sight) simply lets them go after the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam. Third- I do think your statement is true. A lot of the Legion's doctrine is always going forward. Without Caesar's genius at planning ahead, the Legion would resort to brute forcing their way through any situation. Even if Lanius can be convinced, it doesn't mean he is going to give up. He even says that he will return one day and he looks forward to meeting with you again. (Barter path)

[@AImpatientMan]

Legate lanius is either protrayed as a dim monster or a smart man depending on who you ask. Vulpes says that "although he is not subtle, he is not dimm, he detects traps and sets his own" and based on the conversation where you can speech/barter him, he can understand the logic and pulls out. On the contrary, he pursues the remnants while loses assasains for no gains, and annilates the strip instead of using it to fuel his campain west. At the very least, if you complete the game sided with the legion and caesar dies, it still shows that he can at least lead the legion enough to make a significant impact on the mojave

[@taxult]

Jsawyer confirmed that Caesar's story for Lanius is canon.

[@JamesRednok]

Well-reasoned. One small discrepancy though: 20:40 - In the Legion ending, Chief Hanlon and all the Rangers in the Mojave fight to the death at Hoover Dam. So command of the NCR would have fallen squarely on Hsu. Doesn't change your point, but it's good to note.

[@yaboiii6562]

JamesRednok that is a great catch, thank you!

[@DarkSeraph95]

The NCR can't even properly protect their president from larpers. House needs Courier 6 to get the poker chip and benny never made it far in the legion camp

[@cowbeanboi412]

I mean everyone needs the courier So that doesn't really make sense

[@DarkSeraph95]

@@cowbeanboi412 Not really. The legion had everybody in place. The Courier was just another pawn for their schemes. If he had died in good springs the legion would have taken the dam and vegas. I doubt they could have held either though

[@cowbeanboi412]

@@DarkSeraph95 well the thing is without the courier the legion dies cause Caesar dies by all means caesar is the legion just as house is new vegas Lanius isn't a politician or charismatic It takes the legion 4 years to plan to deal with the mohave garrison as the courier says the legion can hold the west or the east only one not both Yes they can possibly take the dam but they can't hold it once the rest of the ncr military arrives it's over

[@DarkSeraph95]

@@cowbeanboi412 All that proves is the Legion couldn't hold their land. They would take the dam and Vegas. They just couldn't hold it

[@cowbeanboi412]

@@DarkSeraph95 exactly so it isn't a big change to the fallout time line it just pisses off the bear

[@chrisfox7034]

That might be why there is so little in the way of side-missions for the Legion versus the NCR. They've basically done everything in advance - there's barely anything left to do aside from outright assaulting military bases.

[@yaboiii6562]

That’s actually a really good point.

[@redleader_5]

The reason why there are so few Legion Quests is because the devs didn't have the time to make them

[@BIadelores]

That's a nice headcannon yeah, but the actual reaosn is that the developers didn't have time for Legion missions.

[@yourdadsotherfamily3530]

@@BIadelores yeah I wish hunting down profligates was more rewarding or had better quests that weren’t bugged like the legion side of ‘put a spell on you’ or many other cut legion quests. …. but the 2 stealth boys every 3 days from Veteran Atticus in the Legion Safe House is the best reward ever like infinite stealth boys

[@vanomxxx]

I hate to be that guy but J.E Sawyer stated that they're definitely would have been more legion centric missions had they more time but I love lorewise this could absolutely fit with what you said either way 😎👍

[@extensioncordgaming8266]

Does everyone just forget that one of the first legionaries we can fight in Nipton has a Cowboy Repeater? They have guns! Everyone forgets this! "Oh goofy cosplayers with machetes and spears haha" what the hell?

[@esotericulmanist8331]

@Fa Mulan nowhere in the lore is it specified that firearms are unheard of for the Legion either doe

[@spookyengie735]

@@esotericulmanist8331 It been stated that the legion do infact uses gun but not extensively because they have the believe that technology is the bend of humanity. The Legion aren't retarded to not use gun but they don't use it as efficiently as the NCR.

[@esotericulmanist8331]

@@spookyengie735 yes

[@zxylo786]

@ItalianOfficialGamer Weapons that are Brotherhood of Steel tier considering what Veronica says.

[@Angel2h3ll]

@@spookyengie735 no they use it decent but Ceaser says the problem is a gun can jam on you or malfunction I’m surprised he doesn’t have all the legion using revolvers

[@ComfyMarius]

In the Yes Man ending, both the NCR and the Legion are supposed to be enemies, but honestly, the NCR feels more like an annoyance, whereas the Legion feels like the proper enemy. So this makes sense.

[@vanomxxx]

Honestly NCR are your somewhat "allies" before you stab them in the back , you shouldn't try to make them your enemies it only hurts your yes-man domination except maybe if you can do it without them knowing you did it like blowing up their monorail .

[@EnragedPilgrim]

Yeah, I don't see why people would like to side with a bunch of slavers who torture and crucify their enemies, the NCR has a lot of issues but they try a little bit to protect the Mojave

[@javacrow7396]

@@EnragedPilgrim You had me rooting for the legion at crucifying people.

[@Pav94an]

@@EnragedPilgrim the don't crucify innocent people, they crucified criminals and profligates. Facts are the legion are brutal but very very effective at forming a stable, safe civilization in a harsh world. The average citizen in legion territory lives a safer more comfortable life than those living within the NCR. The NCR are less savage, but they are incompetent and follow the same societal model that lead to the world's collapse in the first place. The NCR is corrupt and mismanaged. The legion is about devoting yourself to something bigger, they commit atrocities, but those atrocities are creating the most the stable and safe environment for people to live in since the bombs dropped.

[@eno6712]

@@EnragedPilgrim you had me rooting for the legion when you forget that the NCR prisoners are Legal Slaves . Who knows what NCR law they had to break to mine their nonsense . Probably misgendered a Brahmin

[@gronndar]

I once had this discussion, where I pointed out this stuff, why Legion would win. Arguments against it were "nah, ncr rangers ingame have op stats. Ncr will win because of it". I had nothing

[@yaboiii6562]

You can copy all my points and bring it up with them again if you like haha.

[@ttpbroadcastingcompany.4460]

Stats wise, the NCR is more or less evenly matched to the Legion. Lore wise... Yeah, House domes in everyone's fucking head if the Courier isn't there. Even if he IS dead, which would not be the case given how we're the only one ALLOWED in the damned building House stays at, Caesar isn't doing much better. I think Mitten Squad did a video a while ago going over this whole thing.

[@alizard7617]

@@ttpbroadcastingcompany.4460 the omertas stage a coup of the strip without courier intervention, and that’s not even counting Benny’s own attempt at a coup. Also on the subject of “they’re not allowed in” Not being allowed in the building doesn’t matter for shit if high explosives are at play.

[@petesperandio]

@@alizard7617 It's possible and frankly likely that the fold out gate of the Lucky 38 is as durable as the door to his bunker under Fortification Hill, in which case the Lucky 38 would need to be Vault 0'd to get inside.

[@JasonGodwin69]

Videogame statistics are compromises with the story for the sake of playability, man. It's why Perks make the player stronger without benefitting anyone else unless they're Companions.

[@miketacos9034]

Ten years from now, people will still be talking about how we’re still talking about this game ten years from now.

[@yaboiii6562]

See you back here in ten years

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Imagine if there really is a nuclear apocalypse and New Vegas is one of the few remaining examples of "pre war" culture.

[@Crying_dog]

Reply to my comment in 10 years. I’ll be waiting

[@rumblemcsquash5488]

The Legion would definitely won Hoover dam without courier intervention, but if they went with their plan to conquer the NCR they would fail for the same reasons the NCR lost Hoover Dam.

[@paulsmith5752]

Long supply lines affect everybody.

[@tylerharris7081]

In their current state, yes. However it is impossible to predict how powerful the victory at hoover dam would make the Legion. The Mojave is a wealthy region with a natural capital in Vegas. Furthermore the reputation gained from defeating the NCR (the largest and most powerful nation in west) would have all the other tribes practically begging to join up out of fear of being the next victim. Additionally the NCR has no counter to the legion fumentari. The Legion does not need to conquer all of California wholesale in one go. They can simply grind them slowly, taking one piece after another until the NCR can no longer resist.

[@roderick04]

@@tylerharris7081 To add to this, the NCR NEEDS the Dam for water and power. If they lose the Dam, people will practically be giving themselves up for just a sip of water.

[@VinceOliver04]

@@tylerharris7081 Mojave became wealthy with NCR money and the Hoover Dam would be a waste on the luddite Legion. What the Legion faced on Hoover Dam was by no means a reflection of NCR army's true power. A Legion push on the NCR heartland would be the same as to what happened to the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2.

[@tylerharris7081]

@@VinceOliver04 the legion are not luddites by any means. They use what is available to them and in the east they don't have access to the the same high grade weapons manufacturers the NCR does. We see in the Silver Rush storyline that they legion were willing to buy plasma weapons from the Van Grafs. Furthermore, the whole reason the NCR wants this region so bad is because of it's wealth. The power and water the dam provides alone is a huge deal in a world where both commodities are at a premium. Not to mention the multiple (mostly) intact old world sites such as helios one, the Boomer's home base, and Vegas itself the Mojave wasteland is a land of plenty that both sides desperately want. I will grant that in it's current state it is unlikely the Legion can take the NCR's homeland, but the legion is designed to adapt and grow in strength from the ground up. There is certainly the potential for the Legion to become capable of conquering the NCR.

[@asepsisaficionado7376]

The fact that the NCR has any infiltrators goes to show how much less competent they are than the Legion. The Legion has no such problem because, aside from the courier, it's practically impossible to infiltrate the legion. New recruits are forced to fight for their lives and earn promotion through bloodshed and they're tested in such ways constantly. Voicing the slightest bit of disloyalty will certainly result in being crucified, whereas discontentment among the NCR is practically the status quo. Silus is notable for being the only legionnaire that didn't outright kill himself to avoid capture, and he still never gives in to interrogation without the courier's intervention.

[@vanomxxx]

True , I would love more cracks within the legion like Silius . It's such interesting concept of a zealot starting to lose faith to his master .

[@sebas8225]

The only way to get infiltrators in the legion would be through characters like Ulysses.

[@meh8817]

There are other ways to infiltrate an organization than just to infiltrate the legion, the NCR would easily infiltrate its civilian population, which has been stated to exist, and exploit the likely discontent with the legion's rule. NCR special operations not just the fucking rangers which are gay as hell btw could also be deployed and interrupt supply lines, somebody needs to be providing the legion with its shitty machettes and football armor somehow. If we are also taking this on a more realistic and nation/army-focused route the NCR could also easily crush the legion, the NCR has a fully developed industrial base and economy, and their ability to produce advanced Vietnam war-era firearms with a few modifications they even have the ability to maintain and operator old APCs and Military helicopters, they also have access to the U.S pacific fleet that wasn't deployed during the great war and have a larger pool they can draw recruits from and basically the state with the largest amount of military bases domestically or one of the largest to back then up and supply spec ops if we were being "realistic" a legion NCR war would be like comparing napoleons grand armee to Rome's legions.

[@Monsuco]

To be fair, Silus was on the verge of spilling the beans. Knowing that a Legion spy was in the base but that Caesar had no intention of helping him was demoralizing Silus & Lt. Boyd was pretty close to just ignoring the NCR's rules against abusing prisoners to torture him.

[@AL-lh2ht]

Yea basically the NCR treat Vegas like a far away colony that is barely controlled. So the NCR is heavily nerved and handicapted at their true power whip caeser has their full power and several spy plans in motion.

[@My-Name-Isnt-Important]

Caesar's Legion are more motivated, committed, and use to a far more harsh and brutal lifestyle. Plus they have a singular driving mindset, that allows them to focus all of their energy onto a target. The NCR is the typical nation state, with various factions all with their own concerns, and soldiers that all fight for their own reasons, it's not something they're born into. The Legion will just keep coming until either they or their enemy is dead.

[@casualcookin3893]

True they are brainwashed and radicalized idiots,that want to revert to the point of being no more intelligent than apes,never using any technology,and always resolving their problems trough violence,so if a complete idiot by any chance is more powerful than you and wins in a fight or kills you,hes right in their mind Complete idiots doomed to fail since day 1,the only guy who benefits from this in the long run is Caesar himself

[@rasheedyoufreealrajhi6022]

sigma legion male grindset

[@rasheedyoufreealrajhi6022]

@@casualcookin3893 relax they're not the anti brotherhood they don't think that technology is evil just that over reliance on it will make them weak like they even tried to get energy weapons from the van graffs if you do their quest for long enough. the legionaries have to prove that they're strong without tech before becoming centurion, because your gun could break at any moment and cuz you don't know shit about hand to hand combat your gonna die but i still agree that the legion is probably doomed to fail if caesar dies and lanius takes over but that doesn't mean that the legion end with caesar the lanius ends the legion and i think that the courier is supposed to be caesars heir not lanius and hell most people in the legion don't know shit about lanius he knows jack shit about ruling a nation know nothing about hegelian dialectics he destroys the strip he doesn't know the importance of building a new rome

[@My-Name-Isnt-Important]

@@rasheedyoufreealrajhi6022 Indeed! Even if Lanius could lead and extended the Legion. Once they've conquered the west coast, they'll run into the same problems Rome did. The Legion will inevitably fall, due to the nature of how it expands and wouldn't see the need to innovate and develop their society any further. Stagnation and it's own successes would be the death of the Legion. The conflict between them and the NCR keeps the Legion motivated and focused on an enemy, without that drive and focus the Legion would crumble from within.

[@yourdadsotherfamily3530]

All for the Brahmin barons none for the plebs nothing new under the Mojave sun

[@mustafaamin9516]

A few months ago while, I was watching a Legion playthrough I started thinking about everything The Legion was doing in preparation for the battle, and that without the Couriers intervention, Caesar would have won. Great video my guy

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks for that - glad you enjoyed it!

[@njfhighlights5355]

@Casswury No he nukes”the bear” without Couriers intervention. If the courier doesn’t exist then he doesn’t nuke anyone

[@njfhighlights5355]

@Casswury Ok, then Ulysses nukes the NCR, if you look at the nuke terminal he’s launching nukes at NCR not Legion

[@njfhighlights5355]

@Casswury Ok so your argument is Yes, and a meme video. Ok, also play Lonesome Road because you evidently haven’t (at least in a while) and get to the end. It says “redirect the nukes to hit Legion Territory” Implying they were aimed at NCR

[@njfhighlights5355]

@Casswury I agree with that. I guess we misunderstood each other. I was assuming you meant Legion would be nuked

[@jerry12314]

They will just put Caesar on Mr. House's tomb if he succumbs to his illness and then become the Emperor of Mankind.

[@Fontaami]

Ave, true to the Emperor!

[@thecoolord]

Brother

[@thepreacher7399]

The Emperor protects.

[@roderick04]

Holy shit, I just thought about this and it actually could be possible. There’s literally buttons for decontaminating the tomb and they could just have Caesar lead through there. Holy fuck, that sounds cool as hell.

[@juancarlos-uv4lh]

That is a plot twist I didnt expect, sadly caesar made it almost imposible you know by killing any legionare that even sees such technology, it would be a major fuck you to caesar and what he stands for. Not to mention who is gonna program him in?

[@ParaNoid816]

Kind of strange that this theory hinges on Benny using hair gel when infiltrating the bunker.

[@themiband0598]

Then again, the game itself hinges on this as well

[@tyaz6556]

I seriously doubt benny could imitate the customs of a legion soldier, and even if he got to the bunker by some miracle its guarded by a few legionaries and praetorians I doubt he could fight.

[@TheMasterUnity]

I mean that's how Caesar in game says they caught him, he didn't change his hair

[@mina7572]

It is canon.

[@Jerry_Danger_Haught]

It’s really not

[@supergenius6256]

I remember loving the NCR back then, but then I understand all the minor faction's reasons for not interacting with or hating them, the NCR just doesn't seem like the kind of faction to align with long-term.

[@theman44ful]

And the legion does lmao??

[@supergenius6256]

@@theman44ful Legion I'm mixed on, in terms of control, they do a great job to people that care, but they'd probably just move on from that place during that conquest..

[@thepreacher7399]

@@supergenius6256 The Legion is still basically in a infantile state of conquering and expanding its land. I'm almost certain that given the Legion takes the dam, and the Mojave as well they will change from being a more large moving army of conquerors to actually becoming what one could consider a nation. Caesar himself wants his Legion to have their Rome, New Vegas is that Rome. They would definitely start getting into agriculture more, rebuild and start using the factories scattered around the Mojave, furthering solidifying their position in the Mojave for the long term.

[@supergenius6256]

@@thepreacher7399 I know a lot of folks try to justify the Enclave and Legion, what's your personal stance on the NCR and Legion?

[@matthew8153]

The House always wins.

[@Longknife]

This really just showcases already know: even if you don't like the Legion, you *GOTTA* respect them. They're damned good at what they do. -NCR never even discovers the existence of the Platinum Chip. Legion on the other hand had a plan set in place to intercept it. It only failed due to....wild luck. (a theme with the Courier) Ulysses refuses the job because he considers his business with you more important than his loyalty to the Legion. If the Courier never delivers the chip, Ulysses intercepts it and House is immediately out of the picture. -Caesar is aware House is trying to make a move and has something under Fortification Hill. He even speaks as though worst-case-scenario, he can absolutely spare the men to stop whatever it is, he'd just prefer using the Courier so he doesn't have to execute good men after. -The Legion has successfully allied with the Great Khans, Omertas, Fiends and has the White Gloves on their radar. The NCR has allied with.....absolutely nobody. They only have allies with the Courier's aid. -It's expected that both Lanius and General Oliver are the type to throw bodies at each other with no regard for thought or strategy. In reality, Lanius will send his men through the generators and lower levels. Here, the range issue is moot. The Legion soldiers will hug corners and jump the NCR at moments when they get close, thus minimizing their range disadvantage and giving them the upper hand. The guys up top are well-geared so they can go toe-to-toe with NCR. General Oliver's only answer is a self-serving room of traps to protect *him* and let a limited amount of troops hold out for a decent amount of time, but in-game evidence also suggests Lanius could cut through this with relative ease. If you listen to the radio, Legion is also absolutely collapsing on them: Fiends attack McCarren, the monorail will get bombed, the Khans provide aid at the damn, the Omertas are attacking the Strip, and there's another Legion force specifically positioned between the Dam and any potential reinforcements. The Legion has thought of everything. -It's worth noting that when making the Boomers side against the faction you've supported, the Legion is the ONLY faction that can eventually beat the Boomers. In terms of power, the Enclave Remnants beat everyone, Legion loses only to the Enclave Remnants (realistically they'd eventually beat them, but the Enclave is able to escape pursuit with a high amount of kills to their name), the Boomers beat everyone 'cept for those two, and then comes the NCR, though even the NCR has high losses amongst their victories. NCR is supposed to be a major faction and yet they lose out to two minor factions. -Ulysses, while not directly working with the Legion, plans to nuke the Long 15. This will cut off the NCR's only remaining supply line, forcing the NCR to abandon the Mojave and leaving New Vegas at the mercy of the Legion. It is *OVERWHELMINGLY* obvious the Legion is the strongest player in terms of warfare. They just absolutely have their shit together in a way that none of the other factions do.

[@struanmcphillips5963]

The problem the Legion have is after they have won the strip, they then need to hold it. The legion hands down have a better millitary and generals however economically speaking the NCR are better at production. Speaking with Linaious, he realizes that the Legion only can survive off tribute and raiding. I think what would happen after Ceasers death is his Empire would split amongst his generals. Much like Alexander's and Genghis Khan empires. Which is actually kinda fitting given the original Roman's propensity for cival wars. It posdible that a pissed off NCR Senate would vow to come back even stronger to the Mojave. However I don't think it likely. Anouther commenters compared the NCR position to that of Americas in Vietnam, most likely resulting in an anti war sentiment in the NCR. It's also worth noting that the east isn't the NCR only option of expansion. As Cassidy explains she from a "reformed" northern tribe influenced by the NCR. The NCR would go expand north. It being the easier target. It's also has the advantage of being right next to the Pacific Ocean meaning supply and goods can be transported by ship. Thst said if the NCR piss off Arroyo, its game over. A enraged Choosen One would make the Legion look like harmless in comparison.

[@desolatortrooper7196]

@@struanmcphillips5963 i'm not sure at 100% because right not i can't find the source but i think NCR *need* the Mojave to restore his economy which is crippled since the war with the Brotherhood. After all in Fallout we were using NCR dollars but in NV people are using caps too so when you are forced to use an alternative money than the one given by your State means you are in deep shit. So no Mojave = NCR collapse or in a very big crisis. Also we must not forget the Western Brotherhood of Steel which can be still alive while hiding. They could see the NCR in trouble and choose to go take their territory back. And for the NCR who can't go north because of Arroyo i totally agree. I even think the reformed that Cass come from is Arroyo because his father or grand father can become a companion for the Chosen One.

[@emperorgameling5064]

@@desolatortrooper7196 According to the Fallout wiki the Brotherhood blew up pretty much all of the NCR's gold reserves which meant the NCR dollars were now backed by nothing, so the bottlecap was reintroduced. Keep in mind though the mojave is a frontier of the NCR, not really indicative of the situation back home.

[@struanmcphillips5963]

@@emperorgameling5064 Also worth stating caps aren't based of the gold standard but rather the scarcity water. The caps are symbolic of the containers of water, as water immediately after the war became the most valuable resource for obvious reasons. The caravan merchants in the hub began to used caps as convenient way of trading. Carrying around litres of water were impractical due to the weight and it made the caravans a huge target becuase of how valuable water was/is. Caps are also hard to counterfeit as a factory is needed to produce them. No one at least at the time of fallout 1 had the technology or resources to even bother. Essentially making the amount of caps in the wasteland static. So to reiterate. Caps are based on the scarcity of water not gold. And are hard to replicate.

[@struanmcphillips5963]

@@desolatortrooper7196 yea you actually make a good point. The amount of resources the NCR poured into the Mojave would probably cause a recession if they lose. It kind of make me wounder what factions would arise from.a post war Mojave. The NCR are both political and economic weaken to the point of near paralyzed. While the Legion would descend to waring nation states after Caeser death inevitably destroying themselves along with New Vages. I imagine it like fallout version of dark.age Europe.

[@Resi1ience]

I'm not gonna say that I'd necessarily support the Legion if I lived in the Mojave, since I think they're brutal and tyrannical, but I gotta admit, they really did plan everything down to the last number. Even House wasn't ready for the invasion of the Omertas that was being planned right under his old, stale nose.

[@jinglejangle1533]

As a fantastic theorethical physicist once said When in rome

[@metaparalysis3441]

in my house playthrough the game bugged and the Omertas where hostile to me, so in my world the Omertas don't exist

[@AL-lh2ht]

The issue is the NCR as a faction is massively powerful so they had massively nerf the faction while the legion is shown at their most powerful and competent. Vegas is basically a barely cared about far flung colony. One that they have not even cultivated their control yet.

[@Oera-B]

​@AL-lh2ht The issue with the NCR is that they have overexpanded, plain and simple.

[@Adachifan54]

@@jinglejangle1533 Make Lemonade

[@Ryanfinder226]

One thing I always find interesting is how Lanius mentions that Caesar has drawn too many troops west that are needed to maintain order in the East. Suggesting he’s not only the bloodthirsty hound everyone assumes him to be, he at least understands the force multipliers needed to maintain order in the regions already conquered. Which shows perhaps if Caesar dies he might be able to repress at least some of the possible splinters the legion may have in their territorial integrity from the losses taking the mojave

[@MK_ULTRA420]

I'd bet in that case Vulpes Inculta convinces a few Praetorian Guards to kill Lanius in his sleep, either through bribery or convincing them that Lanius is the one who killed Caesar, and then the Praetorians who were loyal to Lanius kill Inculta. Then one of the Praetorians, someone the Praetorians appoint as their puppet or some other high ranking Legion commander declares himself the new Caesar. It wouldn't be truly Roman otherwise ;)

[@godlymoose9118]

@@MK_ULTRA420 You forget that the Head Praetorian is also an individual who is just as close to Caesar and would likely be able to claim the title himelf

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@godlymoose9118 Maybe, but Lucius himself tells you of the Legion hierarchy so he likely wouldn't claim the title of Caesar unless bestowed upon him.

[@mrcopycat2355]

I thought this was pretty clear. Heck, doing the NCR quest is frustrating due to how much BS they have to deal with. Even their own CHIEF RANGER is sabotaging them!

[@sebas8225]

He does it case he knows they have 0 chance of winning, you are literally a Twist of Fate for the ending of the Mojave

[@nuralibolataev4474]

Too bad that the game was rushed (still awesome) It be cool to see the actually legion-controlled territories and see the contrast between it and the NCR territories.

[@I_dont_have_a_name_man]

Also, don't forget that Ulysses planned to bomb the NCR with nukes, so it would be even harder for them to bounce back from a legion victory

[@appelofdoom8211]

He's also planning on nuking the legion though. So that's not really an advantage for the legion

[@jackakakreanxx5587]

@@appelofdoom8211 only if the legion cocked up in his eyes

[@GoodmanEldwin]

@@appelofdoom8211 Not really, the nuclear targetting configurations only had NCR lands as set. Nuking Legion territory is only an option for the player as Ulysses plans to destroy Long 15 then let the Legion fight amongst themselves after Caesar's death to free Vegas.

[@friedlos8269]

this post is misinformation lol. he is not targeting legion lands the target is the ncrs long 15 not any legion territory, whatsoever the player has the option though

[@BadVoodo0]

Great video, but one thing that should be noted about Caesar's death is that Caesar knew where the auto-doc upgrade was, and its obvious everyone within his upper command circle knew about his illness, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possiblity for the legion to send in a squad to retrieve the equipment from the Vault, or even for Caesar to kidnap or buy the services of a high skilled doctor within his lands (the legion no doubt has brotherhood of steel slaves and technological resources). That said, i always found it a bit odd that Caesar doesn't have a son or daughter to groom into the next ruler, maybe he's sterile.

[@yaboiii6562]

Hi Carlos, agreed. There are even some Followers outposts outside of the Old Mormon Fort that they could imaginably raid for a doctor.

[@addisonwelsh]

All the people saying "The NCR would win because they have guns" have clearly never studied history. It is indeed possible for a technologically superior force to lose to a numerically superior foe. The Battle of Isandlwana is a great example of this. The British army, finest military in the world at that point, armed with cannons and bolt action rifle, were utterly destroyed by the Zulu's, who were armed with pointy sticks. They weren't even good pointy sticks either, since British rifles with bayonets were actually longer than Zulu spears, giving the British an advantage in melee combat. The Zulu's didn't use any particularly advanced tactics either. Their famous "Bulls Horns" tactic was just a basic enveloping maneuver, nothing the British hadn't seen before. Yet, despite their technological superiority, the British were still slaughtered. In the words of Josef Stalin: "Quantity has a quality all it's own."

[@mooseownedjoo78]

Rorke's drift??

[@addisonwelsh]

@@mooseownedjoo78 Circumstances there were different: 1. The British had a strong defensive position. 2. The Zulu's had no logistics, which means they couldn't get food and water to their army. The force that fought at Rorke's Drift started to suffer from dehydration after a few hours. And the battle was only a victory because the British received reinforcements, not because of some mystical warriors respect like was seen in the movie. The force at Rorke's Drift was actually dangerously low on ammo when the battle ended.

[@5ve1e79]

Also the legion has tons of guns and attacks in waves the waves getting more aggressive with Better trained and armed with every new assault but I guess a lot of people no nothing of the legions history.

[@addisonwelsh]

@@5ve1e79 That, or they're the usual internet moralists going "Der, Legion are rapists and slavers, Legion bad, Legion not allowed to win."

[@krashface4870]

@@5ve1e79 indeed. As if other raider tribes and degenerates are unexistant, like the Fiends raping and killing people or the Khans pillaging stuff.

[@Sherman483]

As Colonel Moore said, the Legion’s soldiers are much faster, stronger and disciplined than NCR soldiers. I am torn between the NCR and Caesar’s Legion, my only wish being that the Legion had more of the laws Ancient Rome had, since they’re easy to dismiss as the “bad guys”.

[@sebas8225]

They also have better healing, it´s revealed in Lonesome Road that they know healing powder recipes from Ulysses, this is why Legion doesnt need doctors in every of their held locations full of patients, their soldiers know how to take care of themselves

[@Chuked]

When you make a game so incredibly rich in lore that people will still analyze it decades later when other games released last year will be forgotten

[@slumber1602]

So much lore and made in 18 months

[@Chuked]

@@slumber1602 basically an afternoon in terms of game development

[@ciranopunalesvigliarolo3788]

2023 has been the worst year for gaming I have ever experienced

[@12LoLproductions]

I played my first Legion run this year, pretty enjoyable to be a frumentarii

[@dr.bingus9329]

Great video, highly underrated!

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks for that - appreciate the support!

[@dr.bingus9329]

Vassal It’s honestly great to see more videos about New Vegas. It’s such a great game and this goes more in depth than any other channel!

[@giselecesconetto2558]

Agreed

[@MichaelSmith-ij2ut]

The Ranger vets are on their way from Baja...

[@yaboiii6562]

When I got this assignment, I was hoping there’d be more gambling

[@motivateddad]

This is why NCR-Courier always goes for the reinforced spine in Old World Blues. For carrying the whole faction.

[@littlejuliuscaesar8920]

Caesar’s Legion would have won in the short term but in the long term it would fall into civil war. Politics hates a vacuum and even though succession was set up beforehand; the abrupt death of Caesar would bring out all the negative feelings the former tribes and allied factions of the Legion on top of internal power grabbers. Rome had many similar problems after major victories followed by political strife.

[@Ryanfinder226]

Unlike Rome however NV Caesar didn’t subjugate the tribes he purged them. Destroyed the very culture and any icons associated. Even if the legionaries wanted to return to their old way of life most wouldn’t even know how since their oral traditions, idols and ways of being were purged

[@littlejuliuscaesar8920]

@@Ryanfinder226 The Romans did the same thing to the Italians but people have a long memory and Caesar’s purges would still be remembered by living people.

[@cowbeanboi412]

Yeah I can see the legion winning hoover dam then the ncr brings there full military might down onto them while they are fractured

[@yoavlinzen5669]

@@Ryanfinder226 I disagree. Caesar's legion exists for maybe 50 years. People still remember their language, people and culture. You can see that in some of the legionaries at the fort and canyon runner at cottonwood cove

[@taxult]

​@stevie yanuza I doubt the tribals would get very far unless the Legion entirely abandons the East but they could easily take the land back as the Legion was literally built and made to fight tribals.

[@toxicalyss]

The Legion really planned ahead of time for the invasion of Hoover Dam. Neither the NCR or House deserved the win but still... The Courier was a wild card nobody knew that turned the tables in New Vegas.

[@TheCrazierz]

I disagree. They lost the first battle because of NCR rangers and their snipers, had years to prepare, and did nothing. All they have is huge numbers.

[@Hulgore]

I think its too easy how you can simply as one character decide of the fate of an entire territory, the freedom of choosing your side is obviously a great thing, yet I think it should be less impactful in the game ending. You're only one person and even if you try as hard as you can the world is not something that you can entirely control on your own, it's almost narcisistic/megalomaniac to give that much power to the player

[@Gabriel-sdf]

@@TheCrazierz mate, The WHOLE BLOODY VIDEO is about all the fucken shit the Legion has done to prepare for the second battle, from sabotage and infiltration to spy network creating and military planning, Please don't play the special kid lad, its not funny. (Or perhaps you didn't watch the bloody video eh?)

[@urubissoldat5452]

@@TheCrazierz Yes the first battle was entirely driven by a blunt instrument of war: Joshua Graham the Malpais Legate

[@anafu-sankanashi8933]

@@urubissoldat5452 and as we have seen with lanius, he had a two pronged attack prepared.

[@oceandriver7]

Everybody gangsta till the rocks start speaking latin

[@DOMDZ90911]

The one thing I have noticed about the whole "Legion wont survive without Caesar" rhetoric is that it almost always comes from an outsider perspective. Yet when we talk to any legion character there doesn't seem to be any uncertainty about succession. The Legion aren't dumb, they know Caesar is mortal and will die but they don't look like they're worried about it or anything. My guess is that Caesar already has a whole hierarchy of generals and officers that will succeed him after death ensuring the continuity of his empire.

[@SorceressWitch]

I think you misunderstand the point. The legion under Caesar is lead by a man of wisdom who is knowledgeable and educated. He follows a philosophy of Hegelian dialectics, though a flawed version of it. He is still the only one who is taking the ideas seriously. When people say it will fall apart in the game, this is in reference to empires of the past that rely upon a great leader and that leader dies and things begin to disintegrate. Not immediately, even Marcus mentions that it could be many years for them to fall apart. Too many people are misunderstanding it as when Caesar dies that they will just fall apart, that's not how things work. The Roman empire in the west was in decline for over a century before falling. Mongolian empire was lead by Genghis Khan and later his sons but we saw the empire split up as infighting began and it wouldn't fall immediately either, it was still powerful and had some good rulers but as it was divided parts would later fall in the next century. I can even mention the Soviet Union which Stalin had made it into a superpower. Khrushchev who became the next leader denounces Stalin and carries out reforms but Khrushchev could never fill Stalin's boots. Stalin was a master at dictatorship and control, he was very skilled in what he did. Khrushchev is eventually ousted by Brezhnev and the last leader is Gorbachev who unintentionally breaks the who union apart as he had given more power to others and weakened the dictatorship which was central to keeping the who USSR together. None of the leaders after Stalin were able to fill his boots. So back to the legion. Caesar is the one with the ideas for a greater world but those who follow him do not share his ideals they are loyal to him as a godlike figure and obey. So when he dies, his ideals no longer guide the legion. The others have no interest in his Hegelian dialectics. They won't immediately fall and will continue to carry out trying to conquer and this is also a problem as they too face similar problems as NCR as they expand. The fall won't be instant. Obsidian did this because they wanted to show that the legion is not immortal and is following the road that empires of old took. Reading history we see many empires fall and we have to look at what lead to the fall and they tend to have many similarities. What a lot of legion fans didn't take notice of Caesar saying is that there's a lot you can learn from reading old books. Caesar himself is also blind to this as he believes his vision is better for the wasteland. Infighting isn't uncommon in empires either and like the Legion the Macedonian empire under Alexander the Great had conquered many territories and after he fell it was divided by his generals in new wars and the Greeks continued to rule those conquered areas for a long time even though divided. So people are correct to say the legion will fall after Caesar dies. It's just that nobody knows how it will turn out. In elder scrolls the empire has been in decline since Uriel VII died and Martin Septim the last Septim emperor gave his life to save tamriel from the daedra. Skyrim takes place 200 years later and the empire is nowhere near as strong as it once was, a new dynasty known as Mede rules the empire now and the empire struggled in a war against the Dominion and doesn't control as much territory as it used to under the septims. The empire is falling, they await another war with the Dominion and that doesn't mean they won't win, they could win and still fall after that. However we see an empire in decline. Caesar himself has overlooked the problems of ancient societies while pointing out the flaws of NCR which takes after pre war America, his views take after ancient Rome which was very flawed. He sees the flaws of Rome's Republic in the NCR but fails to see the flaws in Rome's empire within the legion.

[@godlymoose9118]

@@SorceressWitch That is a good point, but you have to consider, that unlike the Emperors of Rome and Mongolia, Caesar doesn't name a successor, which means that there are at least 3, maybe more, men with equal claim to the title of Caesar. Lanius, Vulpes, and Lucius. Sure, they will take the dam as a tribute for Caesar, but what about after?

[@thehivemind8576]

The problem is that the legion follows Caesar, and him alone, nobody else in the legion has the capability to lead the same way Caesar does

[@AL-lh2ht]

Literally many of the characters that out right say the legion will fall apart are former or current legion members….

[@joshuadarrow]

The Legion can take the Mojave, but they can’t keep it. Caesar has maybe a few months left if the tumor goes untreated. No Caesar means no legion, full stop. There are no other leaders to take his place. Lanius would try, but he is shown to have no patience for anything not pertaining to conflict, and would therefore be unable to manage the legion as a whole, at least in both Arizona and the Mojave. Without the courier, the NCR would lose the Mojave and the Battle, yes, but once the legion falls apart without Caesar (and it WILL fall apart, make no mistake), the NCR would need only to bide it’s time until the legion falls into civil war or else bashes itself to death against the NCR in the west. Lanius even acknowledges this as being true in the non-legion speech check endings, “You can hold the west or the east, you can’t have both.” Joshua Graham summed it up perfectly: “The legion dies with Caesar. What follows next are just the final steps of a man that does not yet realize that he’s walking dead.”

[@CargoCommando]

based comment

[@francesco3772]

Angry mummy doesn't know shit, The Legion will achieve synthesis with or without Caesar.

[@jev8665]

Question is how bad is the legion going to fuck up New Vegas before they take it back what I mean by that is legat lanius is going to tear the land apart

[@taxult]

@stevie yanuza What powerful enemies? If you're talking about the Brotherhood of Steel, without Courier Intervention the Brotherhood will attempt to take Helios One and inflict heavy damage on retreating NCR forces, and it's said in an Ending Slide that the Legion eventually overwhelms and routes them from both Helios One and Hidden Valley entirely, and for the Boomers, the Legion will start sending a series of Raids that again stated in the Ending Slides that they will eventually be overwhelmed.

[@joshuadarrow]

@Violent Malware Ulysses can’t nuke I-15 without the courier.

[@nicedayright4064]

My headcanon is that the legion was actually a sacrifice gambit on Caesars part. He's studied enough history to know how civilizations rise and fall and he seems rational and erudite enough that he shouldn't be caught up in his own mythology. I believe he came to the conclusion that civilization works in stages, and the old world reconstruction championed by factions like the NCR could never work, because they wanted to rebuild end-stage western civilization without going through the proper steps. The natural state of humanity is barbarism, and we had descended directly into that with the end of the Great War. The NCR wanted to return to high standards of living, human rights and civil liberties of a post industrial, post-enlightenment society, but had none of the groundwork laid to do so. Democracy and women's rights and such are luxuries: they are antithetical to the immediate needs of survival. Caesar conquered the tribes of savages, cannibals and degenerates and subjugated them to the legions brutal justice. Then, he gathered them together and used them to wage a bloody war of conquest. He turned savagery against itself, rolling up all these barbarians into his legion like a katamari ball of assholes. At the end of it, he marched them all west to die, himself included. He knew he was dying, even if he managed to cure his brain tumor, he would eventually die of old age. He meant for the entire legion to die there, if not at the dam, then further west. The end of the legion would have left the east largely pacified: all the problem children having been crushed or dragged away to serve in the legion. Much like the brutal conquest of the ancient world by the Roman Empire paved the way for trade, science and learning to flourish, Caesars successor should have had an easy time consolidating power and creating a working civilization at a pre-industrial level. That's why the legion was so technophobic. Old-world tech is a limited resource, and it would eventually run out or fail before enough progress could be made to reproduce it. A society which became dependent on them would suffer a second collapse and fragment once their precious tech ran out, or turn to isolationism and resource grabbing like the brotherhood. The NCR tried to recreate the template of the society which had ended up destroying the old world. Caesar built his in the image of the one that created it. Tactically and logistically, the game could be argued so that any faction could win. The legion was the only one whose philosophy was capable of victory.

[@jigenstoklasa7737]

Caesar somewhat explains that he does intend to win the war, but not keep the Legion as is. He hopes that through the cultural osmosis inherent to conquering the NCR, that the Legion will slowly adapt a more civilized mentality and the people of the NCR will become stronger and less reliant on modern comforts. In that way, Caesar will have created a fascist state where the people are secure and productive. He cites this as a form of hegelian dialectic.

[@Chuked]

And this is why NV is the best modern RPG of all time

[@floorfungus4209]

ave, true to caesar

[@Chuked]

@@floorfungus4209 you must enter Caesar’s tent alone, anyone else must remain outside

[@thetrashmammal7389]

That's the thing though, his ends justify the means mentality is dangerous and fundamentally your theory is flawed. Hundreds of places around the country have already reached higher levels of technological advancement with full capability to recreate said tech. The institute is capable of production of technology, as are the brotherhood in Boston albeit to a lesser extent. The gun runners run a fully functioning gunsmith operation. Places like the Pit are capable of mass munitions production and metal refinement. It's not the stone age, they aren't only salvaging.

[@archieallaway6718]

Fantastic video,so glad to find people still making stuff about NV a decade later.

[@yaboiii6562]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@weirdspace8714]

If you know American history, Oliver is kinda close to George B. McClellan, while Hanlon is kinda close to Ulysses S. Grant. (American Civil War for people who don't know)

[@warlordofbritannia]

Except Hanlon falls into despair, something I can never see Grant doing - Grant’s defining trait as a commander was his determination and common sense, he never would accept defeat and tended to find a way to victory even in seemingly disastrous circumstances Plus, Oliver seems somewhat competent, his battle plan for attrition is sound based on known information; it’s actually more reminiscent of Grant’s 1864 campaign, which was intended to break Confederate strength by continuous heavy blows

[@dennis2376]

I would suggest General MacArthur, who under estimated the Chinese and wanted to drop nuclear bombs on the Chinese and North Korean border.

[@formanmills8211]

@@warlordofbritannia Grant's major despair came later, mostly while president. He actually was pretty much a miserable dude outside the American Civil War. Another parallel between Hanlon and Grant is that neither were well-suited for their position after being General of the Army, and terrible with politics. Post-presidency Grant was even worse though, and would've left his wife in debt if not for Grant's friendship with Mark Twain. Twain offered him a 70% royalty (I think baseline was like 10-15% at the time) for his memoirs. Grant died not even a week after finishing his memoirs from cancer, and his wife got $12-20 million (In today's dollars) from royalties. That of course means, even on his deathbed he was uncertain of the future he left for his wife and children. So I could see him being just as dejected and depressed as Hanlon acts after his presidency

[@warlordofbritannia]

@@formanmills8211 That’s a fair analysis, but I still think Grant wouldn’t have declined like Hanlon does, not with an enemy to focus on and plan for. Grant’s alcoholism and depression was driven by loneliness and boredom - Hanlon takes to the bottle out of despair; that’s the difference between the two, at least as I see it.

[@aceidel]

surely ulysses is closer to ulysses s grant

[@fence7446]

So uhhh... its like afghanistan

[@hanhdrew]

I really like how you used in game dialogue to credit your points 10/10

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks!

[@TheCrazierz]

@@yaboiii6562 there's alot of in game dialog to show why they would lose too. Like how the NCR Rangers sniped their leaders and defeated them in the first battle and how the legion has done absolutely nothing to address this flaw except throw more bodies. Even in the legion campaign, you see they have this problem and you have to help them with the snipers.

[@meokayenglish8361]

@@TheCrazierz did you watch the video? The Legion adapts and try to minimize their disadvantage already. What you said is one of the reason of why 1st battle of hoover dam result in loss for Legion, so they minimize the "throw more bodies" tactics. Such as going into the dam through the water tunnels, making range less of an issue for their melee soldiers. If anything, Legion wont "lose" but suffer heavy casualties at worst. Thats assuming NCR even use their current resource right, which they arent and instead wasting the resource in battle the worst way by putting soldiers all at the wrong place because Oliver need his ego and decide to do opposite of Hanlon advice, you know, the advice that make NCR wins in the first battle of Hooverdam. More than likely Legion would just suffer mild casualties just as they would expect in any battle, and NCR suffer heavy loss and tries to retreat if they still can.

[@richardchargingcloud6590]

I did all 3 sides, agreed the legion would win without question.

[@Dorkeydaze]

Mr. Chad with robot army: haha legion go boom, also NCR citizens paper go “brrrrrrr”

[@TheCrazierz]

Like how the won the first war? They couldn't get past ncr snipers and had no answer to it

[@TheCrazierz]

@Payton Cantrell so, they lost. The Germans also momentarily took stalingrad but still lost Are they at the hoover dam? No. End of story.

[@urubissoldat5452]

@Payton Cantrell The NCR isn't taking a victory lap the NCR is suffering under the weight of victory while their economy collapses and their men are starving for equipment. Realistically the morale and conditions and logistics of the NCR already have them dying without active pitched fighting. Camp Forlorn hope is the proof of that as is the Mojave Outpost and the Camp at Bitter Springs.

[@urubissoldat5452]

@Payton Cantrell The speech wasn't a victory speech, it was a speech to raise morale as the darkness closes in. But I do agree the brass are idiotic.

[@madmanpete]

if i were a trading caravan, i would prefer to peddle my goods to the legion territory where theres no crime

[@krashface4870]

However, that deeply depends on what you commerce in, and while the Legion tereitory is crimeless, doesn't mean the Legionaries themselves may mug you. But yes, given all the Legion may pay better than the NCR.

[@madmanpete]

its all about trade-offs, no side is perfect.

[@krashface4870]

@@madmanpete is all about convenience of the noment, after all. One day is the NCR, the other the Legion.

[@nathanielgarza9198]

The irony is the Legion was doomed to fall when Caesar died, which he will if the courier cannot save him, so pretty much no one was meant to win which seemed too coincidental once you realize the setting is Vegas

[@temkin9298]

You may lose, you may win at the end however House always wins. Too bad house is the universe and not the Dr.Willy.

[@cheekibreeki9818]

Wouldn't the legion just have to send a raiding party to the vault with the autodoc? Or just steal the doctors from the followers of the apocylipse?

[@nathanielgarza9198]

No way even a large party of legionaries is able to go in vault 38 even if it were on very hard

[@cheekibreeki9818]

@@nathanielgarza9198 Not in game. But in game you can almost one hit a death claw just because you crouched. But in reality a small group of legionaries can cut throw ghouls like it is nothing, I mean close quarters is what they are good at.

[@nathanielgarza9198]

Yea, but they knew about the auto doc yet, did not retrieve themselves until the courier shows up for some reason

[@kroposman2302]

"The NCR will win because they're technologically superior" Taliban: Hold my Hummus

[@youraveragescotsman7119]

Taliban have homefield advantage and a FUCKLOAD of mountains to hide in. Once the Legion moves West, they'll have ALL the problems the NCR had and more.

[@therealwaltewhite]

The Taliban dont really win countries just leave and nobody wants to live or occupy that shithole it's sad honestly I feel bad for everyone that lives there however if the Taliban does anything outside or perhaps inside that is too sickening for the world it's likely they will lose the country again by any modern country that invades unfortunately the idiotic president of the us thought it would be ok to leave a bunch of modern weapons there how well they know how to use them is debatable but my point is the Taliban are not capable of defeating any modern military

[@SomeDigitalGhost]

@@therealwaltewhite *Taliban Blackhawk goes-*

[@sebas8225]

@@youraveragescotsman7119 Thats why they shouldnt, Also having the Dam electricity means the Legion will end up giving up on their low tech views so it destroys the ideology and makes them dependent on Tech. House is right The Hoover Dam should be managed by the Strip with NCR having to accept paying for that electricity. Yes the NCR is still bled dry, but no longer on the cost of countless lives since the securitons will handle the defense of the Dam and Mojave borders for the future

[@myself2noone]

Yes because the Taliban is currently occupying Washington. They didn't win. They just didn't lose.

[@q9wgyo73]

As Machiavelli mentioned in "The Discourses" focusing on strategic passes is a bad idea for the defender and will result in attrition and overstrechment since there wouldn't be enough troops to guard everywhere where as the attacker could focus on a specific point without overstretching. Caesar sure did read a lot of old books.

[@kraigisboss]

The problem I've had with the legions is that it can't really survive without constant war and conquest bring more resources and people into the empire. They have fallen into the same trap as IRL Rome which after awhile needs constant expansion and conquering for more resources. Which then made the overstretched border issue which eventually caused one of the many major problems for the legion. Also legion conquers the Mojave then what? Keep pushing to California the NCR would have a home-field advantage against them and would fight to the last settlement because unlike the Mojave the NCR's home is now in danger. Plus the lines of logistics would be fucking terrible in the region it's one of the many problems the NCR had. Legion moves in and they would have the same problems that the NCR had. Simply put the Legion winning the battle would eventually lose them the war. Plus I bet my ass the NCR would try and destroy the dam outright if they can't hold it.

[@enoismano7486]

Sorry for my bad english :p . Well ceaser himself says that once he conquers Vegas he Will make It their capital and an Idea of Rome itself making their nomadic army an genuine empire. So their suplies wont be so overstreched to conquer Califórnia. Also the mongols did the same and created an even larger Empire at the time when the Silk road did not even reached by land to Europe. And the mongol Empire only fragmented itself because It had an tradition of spliting inheritance tô all of the sons. So after the sucessor of genghis died It splited the Empire into some khanates ruled by genghis descendants

[@enoismano7486]

And i think that ideia of Vegas being Rome itself Will give the legion one more reason to fight for their nation instead Just for Caesar. So even when he dies without an sucessor the nation wont fragment itself i guess

[@enoismano7486]

And Vegas insnt só Very Far away from Califórnia and the wasteland still have pre war roads that even the ncr uses to carry suplies, so moving armies and making the stat centralized would be easy, specially if you murder and raze most of ncr cities like the mongols did

[@dekaron12]

Im pretty the legion has huge farming fields back home lol.

[@leeboi222]

You retards replying here realise the legion wont be able to resupply in California for the exact same reason the NCR cant resupply in the Mojave. They'd have to use the same routes...

[@BENOTAFRAID689]

They'd win, but if Caesar doesn't survive long enough to "domesticate" the Legion and Lanius takes over, it's a wash in time. Caesar needs to be succeeded by a military leader concerned with civilian well-being and prosperity, who motivates citizens to join and emulate the group identity rather than feel oppressed by it. They need to downplay their philosophy of total war as a necessary evil to attain a certain standard that permits less harsh standards, rather than a golden standard itself. The Legion as portrayed doesn't really motivate loyalty or a sense of purpose beyond following the strongman who forged it. It's a personality cult without any future unless the courier steps in.

[@dalton6108]

They did create a identity however. I think if Vulpes takes over he can effectively take control over the entire empire and adapt to new problems affectively. He may be a psychopath, but he’s intelligent, logical, adaptable, well read, fast learner, and holds the legions core values. He leads a unit that completely integrates into a foreign culture with their ethics, language, and way of life. He understands macroeconomics, geopolitics, warfare, sociology, psychology, linguistics, history, etc. He is the best one to lead. He may adapt the legion to better equipment and weaponry to combat more advanced foes. He may even be a better leader. Either way the legion produces competency, strength, and intelligence. Any form of mediocrity would result in death. Something the NCR can’t match.

[@BENOTAFRAID689]

@@dalton6108 That's an incredibly fair assessment, makes me wish they would have had more time to expand on the ending in how you coordinated and forged alliances or rivalries with some of these factional characters internally.

[@dalton6108]

@@BENOTAFRAID689 I really hope they give this faction a chance in later games.

[@longlivetheknot4589]

Ncr playthrough: please do everything for us or were screwed! Legion playthrough: yeah we don't need your help but you can if you want

[@Crunckey]

But the NCR reinforcements that didn't make it through the divide would have made it if not for the courier, and the reinforcements would've wiped the legion out at the battle of Hoover dam. I might be wrong it has been a while since I played.

[@yaboiii6562]

Crunckey all good! In this scenario the Courier has been killed in the opening credits. They would have already caused the devastation at the Divide prior to this.

[@dennis2376]

Was there not the Legion in the Divide? Second we do not know the NCR to Legion numbers in the Divide and how that would have turn out.

[@myself2noone]

@@yaboiii6562 Then change the title. As that is courier intervention.

[@MikeHunt-tf1rn]

​@@myself2nooneIf the courier didn't exist the divide still would have happened because a different courier would have delivered the device

[@nottodaywillj2723]

Lets be frank football padding aint gonna stop 5.56 and they cant ignore pain with chems. The Legion would take hundreds if not a thousand or two casualties marching through the Mojave and into California. I mean the Legion would fall the same way the NCR did in the Mojave had the Legion try take California, the NCR would get motivated troops if Caesar try's to invade NCR, the politicians and the people would finally pull their fingers out their asses and work towards defeating the Legion.

[@nicholasoneal1521]

Nonsense, degenerate, Mars would grant the Legion victory to conquer all of California

[@caladan4130]

Imagine if we had a sequel to F:NV that had two different storylines based on who you supported previously.

[@matthew8153]

House vs Yes Man

[@enclaveboogalo3775]

imagine if the opening game lets you choose a winning faction to play out a scenario that would be cool.

[@maxpain2037]

First the Legion takes Nelson then it wipes out Camp Forlorn Hope the NCR don't stand a chance

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Made a new play though and felt certain I would go with NCR just because the only play though I've ever done to completion was wild card, but now I'm seriously considering siding with the Legion for the hell of it. They don't create the best impression, but Caesar's take on mankind's development is one of the few original ideas any of the factions really seem to have: House practically wants to rebuild Robco and make "progress" the way he did before the war, NCR is trying to be America, like the BoS and the Enclave -- both of which are already failed factions by this point -- and Benny is just copying House without half the technical and political savvy. The viewpoint that has always been overlooked by players, and even the writers and developers much of the time, is that of the humble tribal: the largest and most widespread group of affiliations that, unlike large and powerful nations and city states, are actually invested in living in the wasteland *as it is right now* instead of trying to turn back the clock or drawing half-assed plots about the future. The legion is culmination of tribal philosophy. It is harsh, brutal, but believes that what does not kill it will make it stronger. Caesar is not so native that he thinks his empire can live as nomads forever. What he is trying to do is to bring the adaptations of the tribals to life in the wasteland to the accomplishments of the civilized factions and vice versa. The thing that changed my mind on this the most was the Honest Hearts DLC and how the tribes had adapted themselves to the land, some finding such peace that they don't even know how to wage war, such as the Sorrows. Too often it is assumed that salvation will come through technology and politics, when the nihilistic core of Fallout is that these very things are our doom. I do not mean to condone atrocities and slavery, but they could pave the way to a better system that could, in time, become democratic in a new way instead of an old one. Once the Legion settles, it's dynamics will have to change: it will no longer be able to pillage to sustain itself. The organizational efficiency will remain, but slavery will die away simply because free citizens are more productive. There will be an emphasis on personal merit and societal worth over capital that will address the principal flaw in the NCR which is it's greed (and the flaw of the Legion as it exists now.) These ideals and the way they need to be implemented are abhorrent to us in our own cultural context, but the wasteland is not like our world. ...Or at least we can hope that's the case.

[@yaboiii6562]

Loved the write up - thanks for sharing!

[@SomeDigitalGhost]

I agree with what you've said. My ideal ending is a House ending, if only because of how well it ends for the Courier, regardless of the rest of the wasteland, but the *potentail* of the Legion intrigues me. I find it dishonest when people ride in and shout "BuT mUh MiSogYnY and SlaVerY!?" The wasteland is humanity stripped of its civility and washed in and anarchy. Anarchy by its nature is the strong will rule. The Legion could potentially evolve past that and become a greater gestalt through its contact with the NCR and that is what I would like to see, but sadly the game ends long before that.

[@maxpain2037]

Finally someone else gets it

[@TrufanNW]

But the Legion is guilty of copying the past like everyone else. What are any of these people doing differently that hasn't been done before? They're all just repeating the cycle.

[@lordironhidex]

Don't care, Legion will burn in every playthroughs I have. Idc about your opinion, Legion scum (half joking, still won't care about Legion either way, they're always dead to me on my book. Like a hunter to birds)

[@richardgadberry8398]

A true victory is to make your enemies see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place, to force them to acknowledge your greatness.

[@VampireNewl]

And then you kill them?

[@richardgadberry8398]

@@VampireNewl Only if it's necessary.

[@HomeboyUnholy]

Gul Dukat

[@closed2435]

The legion are brutal, but so is the world that they exist in. Being wishy washy with your rule is not the way to survive in a world where everything is put to kill you.

[@xerxeth3284]

You deserve more subscribers

[@yaboiii6562]

Thanks!

[@Salted_Fysh]

You know, the one thing I always regretted about New Vegas was that there was no mission to assassinate General Oliver. Preferably with an option to make it look like it was a Legion hit while still siding with the NCR or maybe to bait the Frumentarii into doing it. Having to see his face after a NCR victory always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. And I generally prefer to do the NCR ending. Moore would be a nice bonus.

[@tedcruz212]

Ave Caesar

[@WiseOwl_1408]

Ncr is as bad as any faction

[@disbeafakename167]

Nah. Over a long enough time period, the legion runs out of resources first. The NCR may nor have much support, but they do have consistant support. The legion doesn't farm, they only eat what they can steal. Given enough time, the NCR watches the legion get weaker and weaker, and the NCR has a constant supply of volunteer troops, the legion doesn't have a home to recruit from.

[@andrewkelley9405]

the 355 dislikes are from ncr shills.

[@Rpg39_]

Finally, a likeminded individual with good sense. I’ve always thought people were silly to believe NCR is the cannon ending to New Vegas. Legion is the obvious winner and it’s because Caesar is a diabolical genius. I’ve seen so many videos of people saying Legion would be defeated and honestly I think those people are just weak minded and aren’t paying attention.

[@dbk_kvd]

Only soyboys root for the ncr

[@jimmyjohn6504]

I think they would probably both lose. Its true the Legion can take the Hoover Dam but I don't think they could take out the entirety of the NCR easily because supplies would be a issue.

[@Rpg39_]

@@jimmyjohn6504 The Legion is a group of well conditioned soldiers with a hefty amount of slaves. The Legion has been preparing and gathering supplies for some time gearing up for their assault on the Dam. The Legion has fields they’ve been growing food with slave labor in their mainland I’m sure. Otherwise how could the Legion be feeding itself this entire time? As the Legion advances and extends its territory the mainland will be running Caravans to the soldiers keeping them supplied. The Legion soldiers will also be collecting things as they go taking what NCR and settlers leaves behind. With the Legions occupation of the Dam, New Vegas and NCR will lose their major source of power. If you say they never managed to repair HELIOS One then they will have no power. And if NCR never managed to fix the water supply for their crop fields then they will have very little food. Both of these things the courier fixes. Not to mention Brotherhood of Steel possibly staging an attack on HELIO One. Many settlers will flea and move on once Legion controls the Dam out of fear. NCR will be severely crippled and what soldiers do remain morale will surely be low. Legion will march through the Mojave while staying adequately supplied and meeting very little resistance. Legion would be setting up new settlements along the way to Vegas like they did at Cottonwood Cove. Once Legion reaches Vegas House will surely let Caesar in at an attempt to make some kind of deal. I think it’s possible Caesar and House come to some kind of agreement. House I’m sure possesses a lot of Knowledge that Caesar would like to know. I believe it’s possible House and Caesar could form some kind of bond but I also believe Caesar might consider downloading himself onto House’s mainframe since Caesar has a brain tumor. It’s also entirely possible Caesar destroys all of House’s tech in an attempt to prevent a dependency on tech.

[@jimmyjohn6504]

@@Rpg39_ If Ceaser doesn't die then the Legion may be able to beat the NCR but the problem is now the NCR can divert more troops and may be able to hold out but if he dies then who knows who would win.

[@Rpg39_]

@@jimmyjohn6504 I don’t believe Caesar dies because the only way to achieve the ending where he dies the courier is the one who kills him. I think Caesar will eventually die but I think it takes place a couple of years down the road. Unlike President Kimbal of the NCR who does die unless the Courier saves him.

[@donovanfunk7599]

The actual problem with Caesar's Legion is that once Caesar dies the legion is going to fall apart under Lanius' command.

[@tristanducasse6862]

And that Caesar has created an environment in which minds like his would never survive.

[@willr.1495]

Ncr ending be like: “thanks for saving our entire faction, have this branch lol.” Legion ending be like: “you have greatly assisted our progress, we shall honor your efforts by putting your face on our currency to be remembered for decades after your death.”

[@civilizedhuman7875]

Mr house ending : thanks for being my employee of the month, you can be rich now. Yes man ending : …………. (I would help the legion or mr house, screw the ncr , I’m not a errand boy , I’m THE COURIER).

[@SomeDigitalGhost]

@@civilizedhuman7875 Courier: I have a delivery. NCR General: What delivery? Courier: *Insert 'A Company Man' action scene.*

[@sebas8225]

Goes to show how Much Legion appreciates your efforts, for all that anti-slavery talk by the NCR, the Legion actually gets stuff done, in regards to keeping trade caravans safe, Van Graffs would´ve been killed and disposed off by Caesar right away

[@JadenCapone]

Ave true to Caesar👍🏾

[@quirinoguy8665]

NCR gets absolutely trashed in this Scenario, damn.

[@leeboi222]

People in the comments be like 'If it takes the entire legion to beat undersupplied NCR fuckups then they can conquer the entire NCR no problem'

[@grimreaper492]

hahahaha

[@theshambler6814]

The point of this video is that the Legion will take the Mojave, not the entire NCR. He made a separate video about that subject which favor the NCR.

[@namelesswalaby]

this is why New Vegas is the best fallout. deep dives like this on the other modern games don't bring up this much to talk about.

[@DJ_Bonebraker]

Yes the Legion might win the battle, but as a courier with high speech or barter can point out, they would end up losing the war. The Legion's logistics (such as they are) are already stretched almost to the breaking point, and plundering, pillaging & slaving combined with the sort of salted earth tactics like the Legion employed at Nipton are not sustainable in the long run. So while the Legion would have most likely won at Hoover Dam, but they would have collapsed in on themselves when they tried to push deeper into NCR territory, especially if they started to invade NCR home territory, which would make them actually take the war with the legion seriously, and throwing their full weight against the Legion. A good comparison would be when Hitler invaded Russia. Yes, they won all the initial battles & pushed all the way up to the outskirts of Moscow, but they overextended their supply lines, and the Nazi's genocidal tactics against conquered "untermensch" only bit them in the ass as constantly having to deal with underground partisans in the conquered territories only worsened the supply line issues, and with the far greater population available, the Soviets were able to hold the line by throwing men into the meatgrinder of Stalingrad until the Soviets could develop better tanks & weapons and launch a counterattack that pushed the Nazis all the way back to Berlin...

[@urubissoldat5452]

Neither of them consider the fact that the legion would entirely reconstitute themselves over the coming years around New Vegas thus allowing them a massive capital that they can use as a logistics hub to stretch both North and West.

[@spookyengie735]

@@urubissoldat5452 The problem is the chance for the legion to entrely reconstitute themselves is rather low,it not hard to predict the aftermath of a legion victory would be a the legion suffering from attrition just like the NCR did in the Mojave,the legion will have to move their force east or else it will far to revolt as unlike places like Flagstaff. The majortity of legion land is held by having a present military force to squash any revolt, they move most those soldier west to fight the NCR leaving the east expose. Now that they have won in the west, they would have to move back east to secure it but then the west will be expose. The cycle continue till ceaser die. No Ceaser mean inescapable civil war.

[@urubissoldat5452]

@@spookyengie735 First your wrong about the Mojave being the death of the Legion. Unlike the NCR they will not funnel countless revenue streams into the area with no return due to no Casinos. Secondly the Legion destroys the Gangs and integrates or kills all of their members permanently ending any of their assaults. Profligates caught would be enslaved no matter prievous legionary treatise, simple residence would be lorded over peacefully as the game says. Another easing of factors is the fact that the NCR can only attack from one chokepoint the long 15 where as the NCR was being attacked across the length of the Colorado River as Hanlon says. Also unlike the NCR Caesar is willing to decimate populations and collect tithes at high rates from its non-residents such as captures and slaves thus giving another massive economic boost. As Lanius says the East can be held if they do not push into the West(the long 15) which from Caesar's Dialogue it doesn't seem they will. He plans on making New Vegas into Nova Roma, and to spend time transforming the Legion into a state once he has his Rome. Simply put facing West from the Mojave makes it very easy to defend while facing East is very difficult. Also there are massive differences in subjugation and integration. That doesn't even account for the power and water loss the NCR would feel without Helios or the Dam, which in lore California is facing a power shortage and a water shortage.

[@anielx8964]

@@urubissoldat5452 Fanboy much?

[@urubissoldat5452]

@@anielx8964 yes

[@oberkommandowest4836]

Too many triggered NCR fanboys in the comment section, Ave! True to Caesar

[@Kalenz1234]

Who would win if the Courier didn't wake up? Elijah once he cracked that casino.

[@maylabrown4584]

That is if Caesar doesn't discover troops disappearing in that area and negates all people from entering in there likely killing God/Dog once he's tracked down which would make Elijah either venture himself which would likely fail or fail anyway by dying an aged death.

[@wolfiethefurrygamer1908]

Whats funny is that people do forget that the NCR aint only fighting the Legion The NCR is getting attacked from multiple fronts Obviously The Legion but also The Powder Gangers, Brotherhood Of Steel and the Fiends, especially from Violets, Driver and Cook Cook's gang of fiends in the south ruins of New Vegas The lack of supplies, manpower, communication and the amount of people gunning against the NCR, they would of lost very quickly if not for The Courier

[@CausticSpace]

California Delenda Est!

[@Valencetheshireman927]

Judging from modern California I don’t think the legion even needs to bother . It’s destroying itself already .

[@BasedPeter]

Only shows to illustrate what an absolute BEAST that mailman is

[@imperiallegionary7452]

He’s still got nothing on postman pat !

[@paulsmith5752]

@@imperiallegionary7452 Next playthrough character ACHIEVED. I will see if I can make a proper Postman Pat cosmetic.

[@Ballingokustate]

Caesar's Legion pretty much already won by the time the Courier woke up

[@elitegamer9310]

While the Legion could take over the dam and control Vegas, I doubt that they could conquer the NCR. Ceasar's Legion, while capable warriors, are hold back by flawed beliefs. They don't use long range weapons because they view it as cowardly, prefer to use machetes and spears over more effective weaponry. The Legions main source of production and labor comes from slaves, they don't grow their own food, they take food from others or have slaves grow it. They are also lacking in medical expertise, and deny women from serving, keeping half of their poo from serving. Legate Lanius will most likely take control, Caesar will die of his brain tumor, but while Lanius is a strong leader and a fierce warrior, he does not share Caesar's charisma and political know-how. As Caesar said, Lanius has no love for the Legion, only for battle. Without Caesars instruction, Legate Lanius will most likely lead the Legion into a war that they will not come out on top of. Even assuming that they could hold the Dam and conquer the NCR, what happens next? The Legion's main source of income is raiding and enslaving other tribes, and all that's beyond the NCR is ocean. They would basically have to turn around and go back east, which would most likely be assaulted by raiders or some other large faction. Caesar's Legion is no different from a raider gang, they can't produce anything on their own and can only thrive from pillaging. In the words of Ceasar himself, "It's not built to last".

[@mr.intruder1536]

Sounds like what a filthy degenerate will say

[@plot6520]

@@mr.intruder1536 A profligate you mean

[@Hynexzz]

I'm afraid that most of your points are wrong lol

[@elitegamer9310]

@@Hynexzz Explain

[@Hynexzz]

​@@elitegamer9310 Here we go then :D kinda big so, sorry for the paragraphs The Legionaries are vastly trained in the use of firearms. The thing is, they do not rely entirely on guns as the NCR does. They romanticize melee and believe it is an honorable way of fighting, but that doesn't mean firearms are forbidden. -- I've seen this argument numerous times and just shows that the Legion is the most misunderstood faction in the series. The Legion has numerous cities back East, all of them with running electricity, water & food supply, almost free from crime and corruption. They do produce their own stuff and supply themselves with it - otherwise, I doubt he would have conquered 86 tribes with just pillaging. -- Adding up to the women, women are indeed free in their territory, but they act as support corps to assist the faction's production and war effort. In the eyes of Caesar, it's bad for women to serve because, in an unforgiving place like the wasteland, legionaries are likely to die. By making the women unable to enlist, it increases the likelihood of their bearing of children. -- Legate Lanius is indeed brutal but far from being incapable. Rumors and descriptions given by the NPCs say that he's a reckless violent leader that seeks nothing but to slay the enemy, no matter the consequences. This is shattered when the Courier speaks to the Legate, be them a legion ally or not. Legate shows a cunning, strategic, and smart person who is aware of his army's weaknesses and will develop a plan to counter the enemy and lessen his casualties. Heck, even if the Courier decides to convince him not to proceed with the campaign because of attrition, he agrees with him! Instead of being a brainless savage, he recognizes the Courier's wisdom and decides to retreat to avoid turning the dam into the Legion's grave!! Amazing, right? Of course, he's still far crueler than Caesar and not as good as Caesar to be a leader, but to say that he'd be useless is a crime! Hope you understood my points! :D

[@FoxhoundAK74]

So in short Benny would have screwed everyone over.

[@raah5583]

But legion would get consumed by itself after ceasar dies. Not fast enough for legion not annexing new Vegas tho.

[@jerm70]

It doesn't matter. If the Legion butchers the NCR in such a fashion than the anti-interventionist faction of the NCR would win out.

[@theman44ful]

But the question isn’t really could the legion take the strip without the couriers help. It’s more can they hold it? It is very heavily implied and shown that this is the outskirts of NCR and they are low on troops and morale. You mention it yourself. Things become much more complicated when things like an actual siege gets involved or two standing armies facing off along borders. It seems pretty clear to me firepower wins campaigns and the legion just does not have the necessary equipment or supply lines to have a continued fight against a fully riled up NCR, not to mention they rely on slave labor which is incredibly unreliable and don’t allow women into their ranks so keeping population up is really hard. Not to mention well trained troops and proper supplies for the NCR. Caesar dies and the legion dies with him, Lee Oliver dies and the NCR just gets pissed. It’s kinda awesome how we can still discuss this though even in 2021

[@SomeDigitalGhost]

Firepower does not decide wars, intelligence does, and the frumentari network is extensive.

[@theman44ful]

@@SomeDigitalGhost yet NCRs is larger and has more people willing to work with it. Caeser is certainly the expert when it comes to undermining and espionage but NCR has superior firepower (as mentioned they make their own weapons rather than salvaging) supply lines, veterans (rangers), medical tech, and is larger. Espionage can only do so much and while caeser is making great strides when we show up it only hurts the Ncr and makes them weaker it doesn’t remove them as a threat.

[@saastamoinen32]

I have also been thinking that, and I have came to same conclusions, Legion would win for the reasons you listed in this video. Great video, nice work.

[@HomeSlice97]

I always had a similar impression when I played through myself. A feeling that while Mr House and the NCR are currently in charge of the Mojave, all of the momentum is on the side of the Legion, and that if the Courier had never intervened, the NCR would eventually lose the dam, and Mr. House would eventually lose the Strip.

[@ogs8223]

Ncr and legion are two strong armies with different experiences, The NCR are only strong cause they depend on their system while legion soldiers depend on themselves

[@coberrycheesesnek4769]

Ave, true to Caesar!

[@yaboiii6562]

True to Caesar!

[@tauempire1793]

Tbh despite being an NCR fan myself the Legion is the most likely to win the battle of the Dam but I doubt they'd actually win a long term war (I.E invade the NCR proper). We have to understand the NCR became really complacent after the first battle but even so before the first battle they managed to kick ass to some degree so that shows that is they truly put their minds to it, it's incredibly possible to win. The issue with the NCR has never been the fighting ability the issue is morale and more so beuocracracy as the heads back home are too busy enjoying their comfortable lives to really care. If the Legion best the NCR at the Dam I think that'd be a major wake-up call for the NCR

[@ghostleemann955]

The NCR could easily pass to the southwest, it's a single deathclaw nest against EVERY single trooper and ranger in the mojave, and I doubt that the powder gangers are going to take potshots at the NCR's entire army.

[@Tross-fe1bq]

The mother deathclaw makes a high level courier look like a bitch. Also this is the army that just barely sustained the attack on camp McCarran. So it's not "EVERY single trooper and ranger..."

[@theshambler6814]

Nor would the retreat be all that orderly. One of the most difficult maneuvers in warfare is pulling off a successful retreat (at least one that doesn’t turn into a route where most your men die), and I doubt the incompetent general Oliver would be able to pull off the maneuver.

[@totallyaploy1824]

Amazing vid. Subbing.

[@yaboiii6562]

Thank you!

[@splinky159]

Your forgetting the fact that without courier intervention Ulysses bombs both legion and ncr

[@BigBrosFilms]

Does this happen even without that DLC installed?

[@appelofdoom8211]

@@BigBrosFilms We don't know but at some point i'd probably happen. Each of the dlc's characters and locations presumably still exists even without the dlc's installed but we wouldn't know that since without courier interference they are either unwilling to move forward with their plans (in the case of Ulysses who wants to have a showdown with the courier), unable to move forward with their plans for the mojave (Elijah needs another member for the heist and the think tank are stuck in a loop without the courier to break it) or the events of the dlc don't really affect the mojave in a meaningful way (the honest hearts dlc). Since Ulysses is only hesitating because of the couriers existence, hearing that they are dead will probably cause him to move forward with his plans and launch the nukes.

[@klayly]

Why would Ulysses bomb the Dry Wells?

[@admiralawesome2012]

Even just playing the game: NCR, just feels like you're just barely pulling this off. Legion on the hand, you feel inevitable.