What's the Deal With Seed Oils? PhD Explains

Question: What Is the Real Issue With Seed Oils?
Short Answer: The main issue with seed oils is that they present an oxidative liability. They do not acutely cause oxidative stress, but their polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) are more vulnerable than any other macronutrient to oxidative damage. Oxidative stress can increase because of nutrient deficiencies, toxins, infections, other sources of inflammation, alcohol, or smoking, and it will inevitably increase as a function of aging. As oxidative stress increases, more PUFAs in the tissues mean more damage. At least 0.6 milligrams of vitamin E should be gotten per gram of PUFA in the diet, but vitamin E cannot fully protect against PUFA, so their intake should be moderated to the very low levels needed, as obtained by eating fatty fish once or twice a week, eating eggs daily, and eating 4-8 ounces of liver per week. Additional secondary problems with them include residual solvents and heat damage prior to intake, but the main issue is that we do not want to increase our tissue PUFA content more than needed.
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This snippet is from the June 16, 2023 AMA. The full recording and transcript is reserved for Masterpass members. Here is a preview of what’s included:
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[@loicdrloopang5671]

You're amazing, nowhere else on the web we can find such detailled information. I'm sooo glad I found your channel

[@davidgrimes4726]

This was fantastic explanation! I think it would also be good to talk about the heating and cooking in seed oils. Particularly things like deep fried foods where the same oil is heated for days/weeks on end! I have seen studies of 4HNE and french fries. I'm very curious about heated vs uncooked seed oils (salad dressings). Not that I'm eating any of it!

[@gstlynx]

Thanks Doc. I first heard about the carbon in between the double bonds being vulnerable years ago but forgot to save the video, now i have confirmation.

[@ProcrastPerfection]

I didn’t realize you had an entire course on oxidants!

[@adinahwithkaden]

I blame PUFAs for my rare lung cancer that got diagnosed in my early 40s. I had learned about PUFA dangers a couple years ago and was turning the ship around, but I believe the damage was done.

[@jan1agush]

That was super informative 👍 for the algorithm.

[@qingyuhu]

Amazing information! This explains why PUFA is so bad amazingly well. I've been using grassfed Ghee and Talow for cooking for a while now and hopefully slowly getting rid of PUFA from my body.

[@hyperTorless]

The fact there is no recommendation for vitamin E intake is weird, but still understandable considering there is practically no good source of vitamin E. The real problem is that they still advise people to consume seed oils. By looking at the raw numbers of vitamin E concentration, you'd get the impression that you need to consume seed oils to get vitamin E, which is counter-productive and dangerous long-term. Ignoring butter, we're left with... olive oil and palm oil ? The latter is deemed cancerous to Amazonian forestry and the former is still often tainted. Probably safer to get grass-fed butter and restrict linoleic acid intake to a minimum (ie. historically consistent rate of

[@SM_RD]

Are there any good human RCTs showing conclusive evidence of the damage seed oils cause as outlined here? The oxidative mechanism proposed makes sense, but is there actual outcome data showing seed oils damage health when following a healthy omnivorous diet in real world context? And if so, how do we quantify the damage? Would be nice to see something demonstrating a hazard ratio. I've never seen anything compelling in the literature, but am open minded to the idea. The only clear outcome data I've seen is the reduced risk of ASCVD when saturated fat is replaced by equal amounts of mono/polyunsaturated fats.

[@SM_RD]

Just wanted to add, this is the first time I've heard anyone discuss this topic as a "liability risk" with a more nuanced approach which was refreshing to see compared to the typical fearmongering approach on social media. So you have my respect for that.

[@YaYippieYeah]

@@SM_RD Well, you could also argue, that he gives the scientific base for the fearmongering, which is not backed up by any outcome data, but contradictionary to it. And thus he is worst offender of the fearmongerer.

[@SM_RD]

@@YaYippieYeahI suppose that's true, but I find it hard to fault someone for the misuse or bastardization of information they present by others (the charlatans will always find something to "prove" their nonsense anyway). I do think the cell membrane oxidative mechanism opens up an interesting discussion on long-term risk/liability but certainly needs to be studied further before making any intake recommendations (that's the one part I was disappointed about). Until the outcome data demonstrates an actual effect, I don't agree with making recommendations to moderate or reduce PUFA intake, especially considering the evidence supporting risk reduction on heart disease. Obviously, some people prefer the "better safe than sorry" approach, but without supporting data, that mentality causes more harm than good in my experience. There are so many other dietary and lifestyle factors that should be discussed and addressed first in the context of overall risk reduction before seed oils, but unfortunately those aren't as trendy as seed oils currently.

[@robertdaymouse3784]

I love Chris's content. But saying seed oil cause an oxidative liability is vague. I want that liability quantified, or at least framed in proportion to other oxidative liabilities.

[@cyberfunk3793]

@@robertdaymouse3784 I guess when studies show the seed oils actually reduce heart disease and inflamation or are netural from that perspective, one needs to come up with something like "liability" to continue hinting there is something bad about the seed oils even if data never backs up these claims.

[@АндрейЕрмилов-х8п]

Is wheat germ oil always comes oxidized/rancid?

[@dangallagher6176]

Yet the data strongly suggests a positive effect from moderate seed oil consumption. The data is a higher tier of evidence than molecular mechanisms, why do we ignore this?

[@theboraxbandit9563]

What data are you reffering to exactly?

[@dangallagher6176]

@@theboraxbandit9563 Many randomized controlled trials of the effects of various seed oils on different biomarkers/health outcomes. NutritionMadeSimple has a lot of videos going through the studies

[@sgill4833]

But how is GLA and CLA fine though, they are both Omega 6 PUFAS.

[@VanillaAttila]

How does this apply to seeds like Chia Seeds, Hemp seeds, Pumpkin seeds, Sesame seeds, Sunflower seeds if you're consuming them either raw, roasted or as butters?

[@robmcguckin7605]

It doesn't.

[@VanillaAttila]

@@robmcguckin7605 that's what I figured

[@opamp7292]

Question: if one stops eating PUFA's then how long it takes to recover from the PUFA damage?

[@lorianncammllarie9406]

Is there any discernment between the organic cold pressed seed oils from plants...from plants like raspberry seed oil, safflower seed oil, pomegranate seed oil, tomato seed oil?

[@billsemenoff]

The iom report I could find is 20 years old, but seemingly nothing in the recent literature changes anything much...

[@DrLukeMartin]

Thanks for this, as promised! 🙏

[@letsrelaxwithtexts2114]

Hey doc. Do you have a video on st john wort? Its miracolous for me

[@pureblood6492]

i followed the ray peat diet for quite some time and developed really poor skin that was only fixed by consuming walnuts so there must be something to consuming whole nuts vs the processed seed oil.

[@user-cm9ef4fw7m]

hahahahahahaha

[@MC-op6gb]

I heard they body can convert the oil in walnuts to dha and other omega 3 acids so. Maybe you can test this by consuming fatty fish and see if that also helps.

[@macchocolateatable]

Walnuts are high in vitamin E.

[@imalamboman12]

Nuts are worth consuming. Linoleic acid (omega 6) found in nuts are much better than linolenic acid (omega 3) for you.

[@robmcguckin7605]

Industrial solvent is used during the extraction process even when cold pressed.

[@misterE-1989]

What about mead-acid? Is that bad too?

[@michaelransom5841]

what are your thoughts on consuming ground flax seed.. it's not the same as taking straight seed oil, but it will contain some.

[@multitablez7825]

i think the flax seed would have had to be made correctly, and stored correctly, and used within time, for it to be healthy and non toxic. it is debatable. i think it's fine in moderation, the omega 3 most likely outweigh the bad.

[@erikahuxley]

if you buy the organic seeds whole and there not rancid and you ground them yourself.

[@inittiela4934]

Chris do you have and idea why someone would be super sensitive to choline? By that i mean distraced and overstimulated after eating egg yolks or liver or suplementing with it? Basicly i had always memory and focus problems and everyone is talking about huge imapct of choline in that but i cant tolerate it

[@erikahuxley]

I don't know, but check his video called Why I Don’t Believe in “Overmethylators” and “Undermethylators”. Could it be an imbalance somewhere in the methylation process? Excess methyl groups would need to be balance it with glycine. I wouldn't supplement more choline if that is the cause of your symptoms, but aside from regular choline, there is Alpha-GPC and TMG. There are other food sources decent in choline but less than eggs and liver, such as beef, chicken, salmon, cod, and cruciferous vegs. Maybe tone down the livers, there is such as thing as much of a good thing.

[@kappapride6017]

I have the same problem, even from eating more than 3 eggs. Alpha GPC and other supplements are even worse. Glycin also gives me big problems unfortunately (headaches and stiff neck)

[@inittiela4934]

​@@kappapride6017 in may case its probably problem with choline conversion to betaine which result in too much acetylocholine and was responsible for those problems. I got huge improvement from 5g creatine everyday (but at first i got huge bloating because of drop of acetylocholine, dizzines, lack of energy and it went away after week) and now im also taking betaine with meals that contains a lot of protein to improve remethylation of homocysteine and avoid excess acetylocholine production. If your case is similar as my then creatine is game changer but you may feel much worse at start

[@williampierson4340]

Sunflowers are seeds, correct? High oleic sunflower oil has almost no PUFA. Does that still have "oxidative liability?'

[@erikahuxley]

The concern is probably to do with the manufacturing process. Sunflower is a crop subjected to desiccation, which will be heavily sprayed down with herbicide before harvest. So you will want to stick with cold pressed (not expeller pressed which uses higher temp) and organic. My skepticism is that the oleic percentage can vary depend on if the oil get mixed, I guess that it would be more of a concern for mass produced brand compared to more independent one, but just a guess. The thing with EVOO is that it contain higher antioxidants in them which allow the oil to resist oxidation longer in high temperature, which is why it oxidize less than avocado oil for frying despite the lower smoke point. So it is not just the fat composition factor alone. "organic cold pressed extra virgin high oleic sunflower oil" is probably a good choice if you want to go that route instead of EVOO.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

18:51 tow · kow · *feh* · ruhl

[@logical_lb3059]

How do we get our daily omega 3 & 6 then without PUFAs?

[@erikahuxley]

You can't because omega3 and 6 are pufa and they are essential as you can't create them (although you can inefficiently covert one form to another, eg ALA to EPA to DHA). Therefore you need to eat some pufa. Omega 6 is abundant in the modern diet, most people gets too much, it's uncommon to be deficient unless you are eating some special restricted diet. Although arachidonic acid is the beneficial form, but too much give allergy symptoms, it's found in fish and egg yolks. Omega 3 is the one people tend to be lacking in, and DHA is the most beneficial form, it's found in fish and egg yolks. Despite being good, getting excessive Omega 3 and not enough Omega 6 could actually get you sick. It's not about getting too much of a good thing but balanced ratio.

[@hyperTorless]

You just eat anything. Literally anything has n-6 and n-3s. Eat an apple, that's .5% n-6s. You don't need to actively seek them. The essential fatty acid deficiency is a meme. It doesn't exist.

[@SrirachaLane]

Chris, all this mechanistic data is nice and all, but Dr. Layne Norton points out plenty of outcome research that seems to fly in the face of all of what you claim here.

[@erikahuxley]

I watched it, and the Nutrition Made Simple video, both are very on sided arguments. Those guys can't even hold a candle to Chris Masterjohn, not even worth his time of day. Also very interesting you create an account today just to make this comment.

[@BlahBlahPoop617]

@@erikahuxley Nonsense. Chris hasn’t used any outcome data. They have. In fact, markers for high omega 6 consumption are associated with lower risk.

[@erikahuxley]

@@BlahBlahPoop617 enjoy your canola and sunflower oil and let us know

[@spoziscool]

Can you actually debate the points made from Layne Norton directly

[@MrTaketheshot]

I agree this is a cool biochemistry lesson and all but in the real world it just doesn’t play out this way 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️.

[@cyberfunk3793]

Meanwhile in actual studies inflamation either goes down with seed oil consumption or is not affected by it so where is the evidence that actually back these claims? Eating eggs daily increases both the risk of cancer and heart disease at least according to one recent study: "Egg and cholesterol consumption and mortality from cardiovascular and different causes in the United States: A population-based cohort study" so I don't know why one would wish to intentionally increase their eggs consumption. And saturated fat directly causes insulin resistance and raises cholesterol so it's not a healthy option to PUFA's either.

[@humanoid8344]

to be fair basically all of the studies I've seen except for 2 or 3 had only showed CRP, seems like they tested just for good measure instead of focusing on looking at better inflammation markers. that being said the anti seed oil is drifting into the anti vax level of reality denial

[@jeanmarabou9774]

good boi

[@cyberfunk3793]

@@jeanmarabou9774 Research flat earth?

[@gtpro700]

Who conducted said research about eggs being bad for you….

[@cyberfunk3793]

@@gtpro700 The title of the study is right there so unless your Google is broken you should be able to find. There is no interest group funding any anti-egg studies btw, the opposite is true though: biggest lobbies are meat, dairy and eggs which with a bit of common sense you could have figured out. It's not exactly like rich vegans are funding huge studies to fool the masses into buying carrots.

[@Exodus26.13Pi]

Seinfeld

[@ladagspa2008]

Literally every human RCT and meta-analysis if individual seed oils show beneficial outcome compared to saturated fats. Silly cherrypicked mechanistic data scaremongering is boring.

[@doni8726]

Do you still have the same opinion?

[@ladagspa2008]

@@doni8726 yes. All diet guidelines of various nations agree with this opinion.