What's the Deal With Sonic Origins and Michael Jackson?

[@JasonBoyce]

It sounds like SEGA said “You guys gotta get this music out,” and the Sonic people handed it to Drossin and then said, “Okay it’s gone now,” and SEGA was like “cool good enough for me” 😂

[@VideoGameStoryTime]

How do you even take the Michael Jackson music out if he only saw one piece of music all the way from start to finish? His contribution was at such an early stage in the process. Your summary is probably exactly what happened.

[@Firestorm2900]

@@VideoGameStoryTime Have you seen Alex Yard's Launch Base Zone Music Theory? He covers part of the timeline, and it seems like the tracks from the CD version were originally in a beta before the game got released, but seems like they were removed later on. The timing of the whole thing is very odd, and suggests there's something else that's going on, if it's either not meeting M.J.'s approval or something else happened.

[@spimbles]

@@VideoGameStoryTime well, actually, theres a LOT of his influence in many of the melodies and chord progressions of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. it can be implied that he had far more influence than we're even aware of

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

If Micheal Jackson really did ask not to be credited because he didn't like the sound, it's a darn shame because Sonic 3 and Knuckles has one of the best and most iconic soundtracks in video game history. Being credited as the guy who made this soundtrack would have made Micheal even more of a legend (if that's even possible given how famous he is)!

[@turbulonTV]

I doubt that theory. After all, he had his own game on megadrive with megadrive sounds. He knows how it would possibly sound as he is a sound engineer too, working on his own mixed. It's not like he's ignorant to the limitations of the MD soundchip

[@legodroideka5505]

*michael

[@purelogarithm]

@@turbulonTV from What I gathered he didn’t actually do the music for the game - another musician just covered/converted music that was already there. Unlike with Sonic 3 which was original music.

[@heronoverdose]

This theory is bogus he had his own damn game on the genesis

[@LostSoulSilver]

@@turbulonTV Exactly this

[@JacobTheCroc]

I'm pretty sure that people are going to make music restoration mods for this game and it might be the most popular mod for this game. I mean I really want to hear the Ice Cap Zone in its fullest.

[@saricubra2867]

Sonic 3 AIR is the biggest competition against Sonic 3&K in Origins. It has the OG MJ music.

[@LaskyLabs]

There's already one out lol

[@bracken8782]

@@saricubra2867 remember that sonic 3 is just one of four games in sonic origins, you still have the rest of the classic sonic games there. With that in mind, it’s still worth buying origins. I had never played the classic sonic games before this, and now i have a way to do it.

[@bizmak3116]

It’ll happen soon too because on the 24th after the release of origins on the 23rd we got our first mod for the game not even a week in

[@vibezonegaming]

@@bracken8782 As someone who’s been a Sonic fan for over a decade. There is specifically no reason to get Sonic Origins over any other previous renditions of the games. There’s a million Sonic 1’s and Sonic 2’s which doesn’t include fan mods of those games. There’s competent Sonic CD ports within the past decade. The only thing we get with Origins is a Sonic 3&K that might run a smidge better. Hell there’s an online mod to Sonic 3 and K to make it Sonic 3 complete which is just better than 3&K.

[@mechajay3358]

As a Sonic Fan and a MJ Fan it's a little disappointing that the tracks he was involved with won't be in Origins.

[@mattimusprimal637]

Maybe DLC, with part of the profits going to Jackson's estate!?

[@ani3168]

@@mattimusprimal637 nah, just get sonic 3 AIR instead

[@mattimusprimal637]

@@ani3168 Why not both? (I own both Sonic Origins & Soinc 3 AIR)

[@Master_Viccc]

@@ani3168 clearly he also including console game isn’t exclusive to pc only

[@mattimusprimal637]

@@Master_Viccc Yeah. I own the Switch ver. [but it’s available to all PS and Xbox consoles too]!!

[@WarmLillie]

Micheal Jackson the king of pop and fan of sonic.

[@user_Z-]

It’s sad because all the removed songs from Origins are timeless classics that define how great the music was in the game and for that era of gaming. S3&K became my favorite of the trilogy not only because of the story but the music played a major part in it. It makes sense why it’s original soundtrack surpasses the first 2 games

[@extreme1842]

Dude sonic 3&knuckles has such good game music, and it's such a good game itself. I'm mad they took some songs out but they are all good so I can't complain too muhc

[@thaneros]

Maybe one day we'll get a definitive version but not with Origins

[@bracken8782]

@@extreme1842 finally, somebody who’s actually smart. I see so many people saying this game is on the level of sonic 06 and sonic boom just because these songs had to be replaced by what was actually intended to be the original songs, and they all immediatwly write this game off as the worst thing in existence. Glad to see somebody understands that sega gave us literally exactly what we wanted.

[@oilerfan871]

Ice Cap Zone was the only one that really slapped.

[@Medachod]

I wouldn't go that far. Nakamura was a musical genius. There was a reason he was allowed to do two Sonic games. They even wanted him to do the third one, but could not afford him anymore.

[@corvusblackfeather456]

wow, that's talent. doesn't play an instrument but has all the pieces to make a great track. color me impressed.

[@TheMissingLink2]

He was truly one of the greatest of all time.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Nobody can replicate the sound Michael Jackson was able to do, he’s just too legendary a musician and that’s why they call him the King of Pop.

[@Joshyy_0]

@@FSAPOJake yeah well micheal was mostly was doing the music

[@eternalrewind2190]

Brad buxter made the music NOT mj

[@eternalrewind2190]

@@Joshyy_0 Michael didn't do anything. He's not a music producer... Brad made the tracks

[@jeremyknight9980]

It even more complicated than the whole thing with Sonic CD having 2 different soundtracks. Me personally I don't mind the prototype music being in Origins because I've been playing 3 and K on Mega Collection ever since I was a kid and if I want to play the game with the MJ music I still can.

[@WolfmanArt]

Hearing the narrator saying, "Hee Hee," felt a bit weird

[@VideoGameStoryTime]

(It felt weird to record and edit as well...)

[@RandommBoyo]

If I had a penny for every time I saw the topic of Sonic 3 and the Moon Walker, I'd be able to fill up gas for 3 different cars with the current prices.

[@yogibear8683]

Too bad MJ still wasn't his own Self Insert Oc In the Sonic Series back then!

[@xxXAndre_69_420Xxx]

Michael the Jackson

[@orangeslash1667]

@@xxXAndre_69_420Xxx The Sega Genesis is infamous for really bad sound Quality. Unless the composer is Japanese it's usually very hard to get good music using the Genesis sound chip. Sonic CD doesn't have this problem because it's a CD game.

[@Kiki-jh2qr]

@@xxXAndre_69_420Xxx that’s a good one

[@ps2maneverything417]

@@orangeslash1667 I believe the Genesis sound chip had 6 FM synthesis channels and 1 PCM sample track. That really isn't going to get you good music, especially if said sample track is low quality.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Kiki-jh2qr Fun Fact: Micheal Jackson has a sister who's also a singer🎤.

[@strangedudee]

If they really did get rid of some of his music in the original sonic 3 then I hope some day we would get to hear michaels rendition of them

[@tristanbush6576]

Yuji Naka has been on Twitter expressing shock at Sonic 3's changed music and saying that MJ's tunes did make it in the original Genesis/Mega Drive release.

[@Medachod]

Everyone knows they did, lol. But, Yuji Naka is a horrible person. He abandoned his own creation. And he even destroyed the reputation of the SEGA Saturn.

[@amarokorama]

@@Medachod Yeah, everyone *believes* that MJ's music made it to the original Sonic 3 game, but it most likely didn't. Brad Buxer stated in an interview that MJ delegated the work. Buxer made 41 cues for the game all by himself, and only a single one with MJ together. Whether that one actually made it into the game, we don't know. There are just about a handful of candidates anyway. We know for a fact that at least Ice Cap and the ending theme were done by Buxer alone.

[@Bruhdawg69]

@@Medachod I mean if I saw the state of my own work be desecrated and destroyed, I would abandon it too

[@Medachod]

@@Bruhdawg69 Thing is, this dude already left SEGA once prior to that even happening. He left the very minute the first Sonic game was finished. And someone from the American department went to go find him and that's the only reason he continued on with Sonic 2 as programmer and later producer for Sonic 3. Would've been better off without him, though. Imagining a future where the Saturn had a Sonic game sounds great.

[@plawson8577]

@@MedachodActually false. Naka worked at STI until 1995.

[@TheOnlyPlayerYT]

I'm just glad sonic 3 is finally in widescreen

[@BraxtonKovary]

Ikr, first time for S3&K & SCD

[@TheOnlyPlayerYT]

@@BraxtonKovary cd was released before but yeah

[@user_Z-]

The 8 cutscenes and wide screen honestly don’t justified a $40 price point though. Sonic mega collection gave more for $20. Sega is just following the Nintendo business model at this point

[@TheOnlyPlayerYT]

@@user_Z- screw it :(

[@Black__Rose.]

@@user_Z- there is challenge,mirror,museum mode (I agree with your statement tho)

[@drainedeyes4268]

MJcast with Brad Buxer is a great source for some of this information, they’ve had other greats on as well

[@imnotkaiser]

Lmao “amy are you ok, are you ok, are you ok Amy”

[@BuzzsawtheHedgehog]

For me, I'm just happy that my all time favorite video game has finally been remastered and re-released. Yes, it's a little disheartening that the original tracks composed by MJ's team aren't in Sonic Origins, but I actually don't mind the prototype tracks; I did grow up with the Sonic & Knuckles PC Collection after all. They're not the greatest pieces of music out there, but I don't think they're "awful" as people make them out to be.

[@SK438]

They're not bad. The problem is that the MJ versions are so amazing that the prototype versions seem bad in comparison.

[@BuzzsawtheHedgehog]

@@SK438 I can see where you’re coming from. I think the main problem that Sonic fans have with S3’s prototype music is the fact that believe they don’t necessarily fit with the levels themselves. I can actually see where they’re coming from, especially with Launch Base Act 2, because that does not sound like a level where Sonic and Tails are attempting to stop Eggman from launching the Death Egg into orbit again.

[@bartholomew5639]

The PC soundtrack isn't neccessary "awful", but compared to the original genesis sountrack.. its awful. Huge downgrade in my opinion, idk if I want to buy Origins anymore tbh lol

[@pixelatedink955]

@@bartholomew5639 its people like you that make me question this planets inhabitants.

[@bartholomew5639]

@@pixelatedink955 ok.... does my opinion upset you that much 😂

[@crossfire34]

The fact that Ice Cap was replaced with such a generic, boring song fills me with a hatred so hot it will melt all of Ice Cap itself.

[@johnmyers4103]

You know that soundtrack from ice cap zone from sonic origins is the prototype music version that originally made by SEGA right?

[@crossfire34]

@@johnmyers4103 Yeah, everyone does. Does that mean I'm not allowed to hate it?

[@johnmyers4103]

@@crossfire34 You can hate it. I also like MJ ice cap zone music over the prototype version. I was just telling you that, that was a prototype music version for ice cap zone just in case if you didn't know. Because I thought you didn't know. So I was making sure to tell you that.

[@Xfactor12345]

For real especially since Ice Cap has some Sonic 2s scrapped Hidden Palace inspiration and the original sound captured it amazingly but instead we get a uninspired winter wonderland beat that does not fit at all.

[@autobotstarscream765]

Too bad SEGA and Brad Buxer couldn't come to an agreement for the use of Hard Times/Genesis Ice Cap 1 & 2 since it's a Jetzons song and thus more directly Buxer's property, and Buxer has historically been open about the connection and being part of Sonic history instead of trying to bury it.

[@SonofMrPeanut]

"Dustin Hoffman, Michael Jackson! Of course they didn't use their real names, but you could tell it was them."

[@1234_Flux]

MIchael Jackson died in 09 but never commented on Sonic's move to 3D despite appearing in multiple games in the 2000s. I wonder if he was a fan of Sonic Adventure and played all the latest Sonic games.

[@henke37]

Remember, blame the lawyers, not the composers. Usually that is.

[@bluebaron6858]

We don't even know the full story. Did Sega use the MJ tracks by mistake on the end? Did MJ say it was ok afterward? When he died, did that complicate things with his estate? Did the MJ composers get mad they were getting royalties etc etc etc

[@BowsettesFury]

You’re not wrong.

[@Squintis]

I like the little MJ sound impression you did there.

[@SUNSHINE-t-m]

and then Yuji Naka confirms it out of pettiness on twtitter

[@SaddieMoon]

The prototype music was supposed to be in the game but SEGA didn't have enough time to finalize them so they scraped the songs for Sonic 3’s release to tie in with the happy meal toy from what I can tell. I mean why would the prototype, that was from one or two months from release, have entirely different music from the final, while yet the final had been a thing long before.

[@GamingtheOtter]

6:07 when the world needed him most he came back. Thank you!

[@kinggalactix]

I miss MJ very much. He was a very kind and smart man, with amazing musical talent. I'm certain that Sonic would miss him, too.

[@BraxtonKovary]

I'm just so happy I get to play it on modern consoles now

[@TaiJason37]

The original Launch Base Zone music is 100% MJ music

[@plawson8577]

It’s “She Drives me Wild”.

[@MarioSonicDKPokeFAN]

I had hoped the MJ licensing was solved. That way we could hear tracks like ice cap not only in Sonic 3 but even as a track in Smash Games or in the Sonic movies. It would've been perfect to use during the snow boarding scene in the Sonic 2 movie. Such a missed opportunity. But at the very least if Sega pretty much want us to forget the tracks never existed, the least they could've done is compose new music for the last 3 worlds that could end up being head-rocking bangers. Or get the team of whitehead or even a fan composer to make new music. Those prototypes are trash. They sound like they belong on the Game Gear

[@autobotstarscream765]

Tee Lopes could've made those tracks work imho tbh, Classic Sonic is his forte as opposed to Jun Senoue whose forte is, well, being part of Crush 40.

[@Qwazin]

Knuckles' Theme from Sonic 3 was definitely based on one of MJ's beatbox demos. I dare anyone to listen to that track and try not to envision Michael dancing to that beat. Plus, I'm pretty sure it was recycled in Blood on the Dance Floor, and even when the beat pops up in the minor boss theme there's a guy screaming "HOOO" in the background.

[@McGomezAddams]

Amy are you OK?

[@SaadNabil]

Amy, Are you OK? Are you OK, Amy? You been hit by, you been struck by, a Smooth Criminal!

[@orangeslash1667]

@@SaadNabil The Sega Genesis is infamous for really bad sound Quality. Unless the composer is Japanese it's usually very hard to get good music using the Genesis sound chip. Sonic CD doesn't have this problem because it's a CD game.

[@BenSchubert1995]

Still, I'd really love to see and hear what Michael Jackson composed for the game. It'd make me very happy as a fan of him and Sonic to see what would have been in the game.

[@Longlostpuss]

Hydrocity Zone has the MJ sound written all over it. I could be wrong of course, but it sounds completely different to all the other tracks and is catchy asf.

[@Estaguy24]

I’m dead because SEGA just straight up asked Jun Senoue to « recompose » the OST to the PC/Prototype version, but the final product sounds like if the Proto OST got muffled inside something and you only hear what comes outside… that’s also why many fans weren’t happy with what the Origins OST became… they simply could just use the Proto OST and no one would’ve complained or even just use the released instruments on the Proto OST, but SEGA failed to succeed. Even the Genesis remixes you can hear from fans like in S3 Complete are much better

[@autobotstarscream765]

Got decomposed instead of recomposed, never send Crush 40 to do Tee Lopes's work.

[@Brydude87]

Yuki Naka confirmed that MJ did work on the music.

[@CraizyMotion]

Never knew Micheal was such a sonic fanboy

[@justagameboy8811]

I knew about this years ago but no one believed me my friends said I had no evidence but my uncle had a close friend who work on sonic 3 and Sonic and the black knight and more games from Sega. He was a graphic artist. He was the one who told my uncle.

[@aratherbritishdinosaur]

Damn, Michael really was a musical genius huh.

[@gwyndolin5485]

If only Michael knew how great the songs actually sounded; how loved they are by so many people. He would've saw it through to the end, and the soundtrack would be even better than it already is... RIP to the King of Pop.

[@rileyk5228]

No way, John Jay Smith did the Sonic 3 music AND the Simpsons impression?

[@HOTD108_]

Sega is a multi-hundred-million dollar company. Surely they could easily afford to get the rights to use the original music again, right?

[@barrykane7844]

Michael Jackson's estate has more money and more importantly the rights themselves. The issues could range from "way too much to pay for" to "the estate refuses to let us use it." Mind you that ALL of Sonic 1 and Sonic 2's music is owned by someone else. Every time SEGA wants those games rereleased, they have to pay him royalties. And they released those games A LOT. So if they can do that but NOT get these specific tracks, there is a bigger issue than simply money.

[@purelogarithm]

@@barrykane7844 it’s also not just Jackson - it’s all 6 of the musicians that he brought in. There could be a hold up with any one of these people or disputes over royalties from the original.

[@TakeitEZE_98]

Not having ice cap zone is the biggest lost

[@autobotstarscream765]

And the least sensible as Brad Buxer should own it rather than the Jackson estate, as it's based of Buxer's own band's song Hard Times.

[@angeldeb82]

LOLed at Sonic doing snippets of "Smooth Criminal" as well as the Simpsons' "Stark Raving Dad" reference! Also, where you said that the abuse allegations happened "in the summer of 1993, a few months before Sonic 3 debuted"... in February of 1994, I believe. Pretty spot-on. Ice Cap Zone where Sonic is skiing... sweet! :)

[@TBoneTony]

The Sonic 3 music during the Boss Fights, I can clearly hear familiar Jackson scream in there.

[@justcallmexen]

I had not gotten to the Sonic 3 portion of Origins but I had been watching KZbin videos on the channel "Alex Yard and Knuckles" talking about the soundtrack from a music theory point of view and he makes a compelling argument about which tracks were from the Jackson team (the ones later changed in the PC port) but also that those PC tracks existed prior to the original release of the game in a beta version of Sonic 3 released to the public several years later. Some things I think can be taken with a grain of salt as there may be a few inconsistencies. For example if those tracks did not come back for Origins then what were they doing in the Sonic Mega Collection? It really does feel like we won't ever know the full story about why this has all happened.

[@costby1105]

A prevailing rumor is that Jackson was unhappy with how the song sounded coming through the Genesis sound chip and asked to not be credited for his teams contributions to Sonic 3; Micheal was more allowing of the use of his tracks in Rereleases of Sonic 3 than his estate. Either that or the contract allowed rereleases for up to twenty years or so. I kind of doubt it as the was a portion of time where Sega wasn't allowed to use the Green Hill Zone theme as they didn't own it.

[@amarokorama]

@@costby1105 I always found that rumour strange. Jackson was reportedly somewhat of a gamer, and a fan of Sonic 1 and 2. Not to mention his own Moonwalker game on the console. He should have known exactly what to expect from the sound quality. It's not as if Sonic 3 sounds worse than those games, on the contrary.

[@qbalsdon]

Thanks for putting this together, it nice to gather all the (vague) info into one place. Sega showed what amazing things can happen when they involve fans, both with Sonic Mania and the original movie Sonic design. Then they absolutely destroyed all of that good faith with Sonic origins music, release date whimsy and ultimately the software quality. As a fan I can't justify supporting Sonic Origins, Sonic Team or Sega with my money.

[@michellewashington3421]

Maybe thats why carnival nights drum samples sound like beatboxing

[@otaking3582]

Unless there is a piece of sheet music in the US copyright office that says "IceCap Zone by Michael Jackson", his estate has zero ownership over it.

[@theworldsmith5489]

“Yay, teamwork!” Hey… we aren’t on Sonic Heroes yet!

[@TheRealDustinNunn]

The best way to play Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the ROM hack called Sonic 3 Complete. Facts: Mushroom Hill's actual name is "Mushroom Valley". Ever wondered where that snowboard came from in Sonic 3 & Knuckles/Sonic 3 Complete? The snowboard is actually the Flying Battery door and Sonic uses it as a snowboard. The correct level order is: Angel Island, Hydrocity (Pronounced: Hydro-City), Marble Garden, Carnival Night, Flying Battery (At night), Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Valley, Sandopolis, Lava Reef, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg and Doomsday. The PC versions of the Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base's background music are based on prototype versions of Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base's prototype background music. In the Sonic 3 & Knuckles ROM hack called Sonic 3 Complete, Knuckles faces off against EggRobo instead of Dr. Eggman in Flying Battery, part 2 where EggRobo uses Eggman's flamethrower machine against Knuckles. In Sonic 3 Complete, you can perform Super/Hyper Cancel so you can save ring power. In Sonic 3 Complete, Tails is playable in the Blue Sphere special stages from the game Blue Sphere, which was Sonic 1 connected to the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge. In Sonic 3 Complete, Sonic, Super Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Super Knuckles, Hyper Knuckles and Super Tails are fully animated. In Sonic 3 Complete, you can play the unused Super/Hyper tune. In Sonic 3 Complete you can play the original level order from the prototype version of Sonic 3 (Angel Island, Hydrocity, Marble Garden, Carnival Night, Flying Battery (At night), Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Valley, Sandopolis, Lava Reef, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg and Doomsday), which is canon or you can play the non-canon level order (Angel Island, Hydrocity, Marble Garden, Carnival Night, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Hill, Flying Battery, Sandopolis, Lava Reef, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg and Doomsday). Knuckles' story mode comes after Sonic and Tails' story modes. In Sonic 3 Complete, you can change the background music for the Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base levels. The prototype versions of Carnival Night, Ice Cap and Launch Base's background music came first. In Sonic 3 Complete, you can play the prototype version of the Sonic 3 ending music instead of Michael Jackson's version, which is based off of his song "Stranger In Moscow". The PC version of Sonic 3's ending music is based on the prototype version. In Sonic 3 Complete, Sonic's name on the Tornado (Sonic's airplane) is not backwards in the end credits while the Tornado is facing left and not right. And in Sonic 3 Complete, Super Tails' Super Flickies are fully animated. And by the way, Michael Jackson was innocent. He was acquitted in court for his so-called allegations. And Jackson DID compose music for the Carnival Night and Launch Base levels. Plus, the reworked Ice Cap tune is based off of an old '80's song called "Hard Times" by an old '80's band called The Jetzons (Not to be confused with The Jetsons from Hanna-Barbera).

[@lawrenceandrews4367]

Wrong. Play the megadrive and Genesis collection on Steam.

[@DaggerMan-ov1vf]

There’s also Sonic 3 A.I.R

[@TheeDeathCaster]

@@lawrenceandrews4367 The Sonic games (1, 2, 3 and CD) were de-listed from Steam.

[@lawrenceandrews4367]

@@TheeDeathCaster i already brought. So i owned them

[@TheeDeathCaster]

@@lawrenceandrews4367 Aight, missed what I said but I'll reword: new users who do not already own Sonic 1, 2 nor 3 on Steam are no longer able to purchase them on the platform. Thus, they are not able to confirm themselves whether the OP was right or wrong.

[@evdestroy5304]

Yuji Naka literally just confirmed that the MJ music was used on Twitter lmao

[@tailsprowerfan2729]

You mean the same guy who made sonic only playable and who’s been part of the down fall of sonic?

[@TorutheRedFox]

@@tailsprowerfan2729 and the literal creation and the rise?

[@tailsprowerfan2729]

@@TorutheRedFox wait I must be thinking about the other guy

[@JohnDev]

Wow interesting timing. This has been confirmed by Yuji Naka to be true a day after this video released

[@Salty.Peasants]

A day after this video was released the creator of Sonic 3 confirmed Michael Jackson did in fact write the music for Sonic 3.

[@VideoGameStoryTime]

Like literally less than 24 hours later 😂 We knew this video wouldn't stay up-to-date for long, but we thought it would at least last a day!

[@amarokorama]

No, Naka did not confirm that. People wildly misread that tweet of his. Again, we knew before that MJ was "involved" with the Sonic 3 soundtrack, but what's debatable is whether or not any music that *he himself* came up with actually made it into the final game. Take a look at 4:14 again. We have Brad Buxer on record saying "the way Michael works is he'll tell SEGA he'll do it, and then he says "Brad, you do it", right? So I think we did one cue together with Michael. One. And the rest I had to do myself". For information on who actually composed what, Buxer trumps Naka. We know for a fact that at least Ice Cap and the original Sonic 3 ending credits theme were done by Buxer alone. That leaves just about a handful of tracks that *might* have had input by MJ. Or they might have been made by Buxer or the other producers with zero ideas from MJ...

[@MysticMike]

Great video but there is one thing that really doesn't quite fit. The music of those zones were in the PC version back in the day which was apparently in a beta built of the genesis version making it seem this new version is really the original version and not the other way around.

[@acmiguens]

Brilliant video. Just one note: 6:42 There's a typo in "I got the call"

[@etherealhatred]

What people doesn't seem to realize is the fact that is not as easy as "hur dur just pay SEGA" apparently Sony has the royalties on most MJ's music so either them or Jackson's family could make difficult to just obtain those songs Either because, as you said in the video, a lot of people was involved and made this more complicated to deal with or they simply refused We don't know the answer to it but is so dumb that people put the blame on the company as if they didn't tried when they decided to make arrangements to the songs because they care about it, they know how important that music is, it's simply something that couldn't come up into reality because copyright laws can be that complicated to deal with and it's not necessarily *SOMEONE'S* fault This fandom needs to grow up and understand that not everything gets solved by just pointing fingers and blaming someone, this is a franchise moved by a company, there are things we don't know and a lot more we probably won't understand, it's not as easy as trying to find the culprit, we're not 9 year olds anymore

[@lillyanaduff3864]

We should have a had a whole song back in the 90s where it's just MJ's sound effects "hee hee, shucka-chucka, OWW! Shamone, shamone!" would be some of the sounds in this song if it existed.

[@dautolover]

I've been thinking about this topic for some time. What seems strange to me that Sonic 3 & Knuckles has been put in compilations several times throughout the years, and with the exception of one compilation (Sonic Jam), the MJ music has always been released. This includes the Mega Drive Collection and the Sonic Mega Collection (and the Plus Variants). Even the DS ports had the MJ music. Interestingly, of all the compilations, it is the Sonic & Knuckles Collection for PC (1997) and Sonic Origins where there has been significant reworking done to the games. The PC version's graphics are improved, and the music is played using another sound engine. Sonic Origins is technically a "remastered" version, running on a game engine different than the engine used in the originals. It's a new game, with the design of the old games incorporated into the new game. It's possible Sonic Team can get away porting the old game to new consoles and using the MJ songs without any issues, but if the game is remastered (i.e., a new game), then that's when Sega has to get a license to use the MJ songs to use them in that new game. Since it's MJ, such a license would not be cheap, and Sonic Team probably realized that it wasn't worth it to purchase said license for Sonic Origins.

[@ToxiChaos]

That John Jay Smith joke is my personal explanation for what really happened, Michael chose to go uncredited to avoid making licensing messy down the road. So much for that however. I guarantee what happened is that Michael went in there, beatboxed and sang out very early versions of carnival night, launch base, etc. And then Brad and the team actually MADE the music from there. That really was how Michael did a lot of his music, if you want This Is It, you can see him actually do it. He'd sing a phrase to the instrument player, and they'd try to copy Michael until he liked it. Very very great video!!

[@getbn6547]

Looks like Sega fell on "Hard Times"......

[@jamesbevan4479]

Yuji Naka literally confirmed it today that some of Michael's music made it in the game... hours after this video uploaded. Talk about bad timing lol.

[@amarokorama]

No, he did not confirm that. People wildly misread that tweet of his. Take a look at 4:14 again. We have Brad Buxer on record saying "the way Michael works is he'll tell SEGA he'll do it, and then he says "Brad, you do it", right? So i think we did one cue together with Michael. One. And the rest I had to do myself". For information on who actually composed what, Buxer trumps Naka. We know for a fact that at least Ice Cap and the original Sonic 3 ending credits theme were done by Buxer alone. That leaves just about a handful of tracks that *might* have had input by MJ.

[@jamesbevan4479]

@@amarokorama fair enough. I figured if Yuji Naka himself says MJ worked on Sonic 3, he would know of all people. Regardless of confirmed or rumoured, we will never see the original megadrive/genesis version again I think. Too much legal tape.

[@Amon_Gus799]

Love the videos always learn something new

[@Skyverb]

4:57 gave me a good chuckle. Thanks for the vid 😂

[@Speed_311]

Bruh, I love your artstyle

[@DomDomPop]

The crazy part is that Brad Buxer and company are still in the credits in Origins, even though their music was removed.

[@hsinhaowang]

We were left on Hard Times when they removed Ice Cap Zone's score.

[@rhapsody2612]

0:35 The game released in 1994, not 1993

[@chunkiesYT]

You are a great channel you derserve more

[@playaton92]

5:47 "I understood that reference!"

[@goranisacson2502]

Huh, that guy who claimed all the MJ music was taken out of Sonic 3... if that is the case, then shouldn't those songs still be there in Origins? Why remove it then? Why keep MJ's soubd team in the credits? Or do they possibly mean that they specifically removed the song that MJ did, but knew the songs the other team members did and kept those? I dunno, sounds pretty flimsy to me.

[@barrykane7844]

All of the songs related to MJ and his team were replaced. Regardless of how much MJ specifically was involved, it's clear that the team is in some way an extension of his relation to the rights. That and their Ice Cap is literally a remix of an unreleased song Brad Buxer did.

[@goranisacson2502]

@@barrykane7844 As far as I understoof the claims from the guy in the 2014 interview, it sounded like he said that all songs that had to do with MJ were replaced with their own songs when the FIRST version of Sonic 3, the one that was released in the 90's, was released. That the MJ teams songs had in fact never been one any cartridge sold in stores. That's what I found suspicious- but perhaps I misunderstood his intentions?

[@barrykane7844]

@@goranisacson2502 There was a PC port of S3&K that replaced the MJ related songs with the prototype songs made by other composers, but the original release had Jackson and his team involved. According to Buxer, MJ was only ever actually involved with the Sonic 3 credits theme but his team made the songs in his stead. The songs that are in the original Sonic 3 release are related to MJ. Origins replaced them with updated versions of unreleased prototype songs. If the MJ songs weren't actually related to him, I believe SEGA would have no problem releasing them.

[@amarokorama]

@@barrykane7844 Where did Buxer say that MJ was only ever involved with the Sonic 3 credits theme? That theme became the basis for Stranger in Moscow, and was composed by Buxer himself, without input from MJ. Ice Cap is also by Buxer (Hard Times by The Jetzons), composed before he ever worked for MJ, so it's not really "related to MJ", but obviously legally problematic.

[@ranger13]

I believe this is true based off of how you described how he does music arrangements. Many Years ago he had to fight a copyright lawsuit because some accused him of stealing melodies. Michael hummed and recorded his arrangements and i forgot what song he was accused of stealing but he wasn’t found liable because his hummed melodies were dated and the song he was accused of stealing didn’t add up to the dates that he originally arranged them.

[@JustJulyo]

Very comprehensive video regarding a long running controversial topic

[@JJWMK2]

Maybe SEGA or Headcannon should let Tee Lopes to do his version of S3&K OST 🤔 (after he done with TMNT Shredder’s Revenge and Freedom Planet 2)

[@autobotstarscream765]

Yes, they should have, as the entire selling point of Origins was that it was the Headcannon remakes instead of the Genesis originals, but they stabbed Headcannon in the back instead.

[@JJWMK2]

@@autobotstarscream765SEGA cause to rush and Headcannon are not happy about it despite it is a good game (or more likely a compilations), they take responsibility (lots of bugs and also rushed by SEGA) Seem like SEGA haven’t learn the lesson and if they keep repeating history they’re doom to fail -_-

[@MistyKathrine]

Sounds like Sega ran into some Hard Times in releasing the game with the original music.

[@nemurenuyorumoonlight8778]

I found a video about Launch Base Zone's music theory and discovered that Sega's handling of Sonic 3 was more messy than what is being seen. Apparently, while he was still alive, Michael Jackson, with the help of Brad Buxer, wrote 40 songs total for Sonic 3. Sega only used 10 in the base game. If Sega could get their act together and pay up for the whole 40 and have it sold either as individual song files or as the whole soundtrack, then Modders would be able to place each song in each respective zone to show the world what the original Sonic 3 and Knuckles was suppose to sound like with MJ's music.

[@Gamer-jo8yj]

5:52 Nice reference

[@revengenerd1]

There is a lot of half truths for many reasons like fans wanting things to be true, and how close the music sounds to his work, but they forget people work together. From previous statements he gave ideas for tracks that should be used, gave feedback each day on his teams works and that is likely the main chunk of his work. For the teams work I have heard that the tracks that were made were remixed by Sega themselves which would make sense given most of the OST is kept in.

[@hectorbravo9855]

I going to miss some of the old music for sonic the hedgehog 3 I love more than the new music Thay have for the game know but at least you could hear the old music on KZbin so that good

[@d.mar.2624]

If I remember correctly back in the 90's in a magazine called "Sega Visions" it was stated that Michael Jackson was involved in it.

[@enriquepinero707]

With the amount they are over charging us for the same games multiple time (and yes I bought this colleciton; because the emulation is best in every graphical and gameplay way); they better use that money to get the rights to patch in the music down the line. Oh and is the reference referring to John Jay College for Criminal Justice?

[@ReedReed999]

Unlucky that the day after you posted this it was confirmed

[@notaprogamer2782]

Ther was actually some cool track replacing the original jingles. For example, the super sonic theme for sonic 3&k has been replaced with what I think is a new theme if Im not mistaken, and it hits

[@Antonio_Ortiz]

5:45: “I understood that reference."

[@LegallyBlindGamer7926]

As soon as Sega realized that they couldn’t use the Michael Jackson music, they should have delayed Sonic Origins to ensure that the new music that replaced it was of equal quality. The songs that are in the game now are absolutely horrendous, and I refuse to play Sonic 3 on Origins because of them.

[@tails_the_god]

Agreed!

[@GreenEl1te]

That's a bit... extreme?

[@autobotstarscream765]

No delay was necessary as they could've simply used the well-received Prototype Build versions of the tracks to get the work done instantly, this is simply SEGA strangling their golden hedgehog with their foolishness yet again.

[@MrCalverino]

I was there as a 9 year old kid, I got Sonic 2 for Christmas in 93' and I remember February 1994 like it was yesterday. I IMMEDIATELY knew the production team was different as soon as Knuckles punched Sonic at the beginning of the game. I only play Sonic 3, I'm not a fan of the full game because they changed the music

[@valmid5069]

Fun Fact: *The King of Pop was the inspiration for SEGA’s blue mascot*

[@Medachod]

I like the prototype version of Carnival Night Zone much better than the final, could go either way with Launch Base Zone because it sounds groovy in the final but more fitting in the prototype. However, I much prefer IceCap Zone in the final. Nothing beats how slick that tune sounded.

[@MONROE_GAMES1981]

No the hip hop circus music in carnival night was way better than the prototype garbage. Same with Launch Base...GO SEGA GO SEGA GO

[@Medachod]

@@MONROE_GAMES1981 Ok.

[@Scerttle]

Hoooraaaay, copyright stifling distribution of a thing, my faaavourite.

[@lamontwallace4323]

Mj has a unreleased song called serious effect that is in sonic 3 as an instrumental

[@dragons_hook]

All you need to do is listen to the mini boss theme from the original Sonic 3. It sounds so much like something he could have made.

[@shinbakihanma2749]

Wow, looks like I won't be buying Sonic Origins, ever. The music in Sonic 3 is a crucial part of the game. The soundtrack being removed is like removing some actual levels and characters. It's not the actual game. SEGA better get it together, and FIX THIS, no matter how much money it takes.

[@chriswoods7774]

Didn't know Micheal Jackson was into video games like Sonic, not just doing music in the reality world back then, wonder what he would do if he was still alive today he would've made more video game soundtracks, what about Mario video games I'm sure he knew who Mario was back in mid 80's and all through the 90's.

[@TonyTheTGR]

The other moral of the story: Music licensing can be a nightmare

[@baddabaddabaddaswing]

Also MJ was already a fan of sonic, surely he's know what a genesis sounds like.

[@Elratauru]

I mean, it's clear which songs were still in the game, just by the use of samples that these were made by Buxer and the MJ Team. No need to cite people for quotes to know that. Icecap was the only missing piece that we couldn't find anything on until Hard Times was revealed to the public... because it was similar but not enough. The work that Qjimbo put unto this research back then was amazing, people were gathering clues from every single arrangement, every note. To me, Howard most likely just gave the OK to SEGA and they didn't care enough, as the Genesis FM compositions did not sound anything like "real" songs back then anyways, so they thought they could slip it off without anybody noticing, and it would have been this way if not for the whole internet starting to research it lol.

[@gamemasteranthony2756]

Funny thing about this...I actually envisioned a version of the Smooth Criminal scene from Moonwalker (yes, the version that included lyrics that never made it onto records), but with the various characters from Sonic doing all the dances. And by various, I mean ALL continuities. Game, comic, and cartoon. Picture that if you will. Yes...I am that crazy. No...I do not apologize.

[@vibezonegaming]

I definitely think it’s similar to the Ken Penders situation. Since the songs belong to Jackson, that implies it was never in the contract that Sega would get the songs. Ken Penders’ contract was never found, but as someone who thinks that should’ve literally been physically impossible, I think it’s a cover up for the fact that Sega as a whole didn’t include copyrighted claims to characters in those contracted. So it’s likely the contract had Jackson make songs, but not give Sega free reign of the music.

[@notsolykely693]

I think I see why Sonic 3 isn't on the genesis mini.

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

The moral of the story: The whole had to answer right now just to tell us once again; “Who’s [way past] cool?!”

[@bluebaron6858]

Or write better contract records.