What Would a More narrative 40K Look like?

[@LiamDempsey40k]

Thanks so much for having me on team. You guys are amazing. Absolute pleasure.

[@natashakerensky9406]

Liam and everyone is right. Enjoying time with your loved ones no matter what the activity, is the most important thing to have as you’ll never forget in your head or heart.

[@matthayward7889]

Loved it mate. The stories about the secret gaming club on base had me cracking up!

[@Rolfus]

Hey it's that one guy

[@DaronSchmit]

Hearing you talk about kids, imagination, and DnD, you should check out Fighting Fantasy. I've heard good things, apparently they're kind of a "Choose your own adventure" series fantasy books by one of the early founders of workshop

[@Psychichazard]

Can confirm, Black Bomber is the best. I can also strongly recommend Ben Gunn with Chives if you're feeling daring.

[@Kirioth]

So happy you've got Liam on, he's one of the soundest guys in the community

[@AubLambe]

We have roundabouts in Canada, I love them. they are a joy to cycle through.

[@FooLmanUF]

It's so good to see that not only the lore-commissar and super-competitive approach exists. There should be more emphasis on the fun part of the game.

[@terraneaux]

Right, but purposefully making dumb moves (like running your Khorne berzerkers off an objective) doesn't necessarily make for more "fun." Competition can definitely be fun if everyone's being sporting.

[@FooLmanUF]

It depends on the way you - and your opponent- wants to play. In a more narrative, more role-play like setting you wouldn't put berzerkers on guard duty, as - by their nature - they will run off the first time there is something to kill.

[@miwicpmiwicp8074]

Geoff's actions ideas are inspired, I love the idea that they'd affect the gameplay rather than just scoring points.

[@thepaintingphase]

Cheers - Geoff

[@BrokenKrayon]

You guys should scribble the idea out and play a game ! Would be interesting to watch

[@simonpark843]

I enjoy these 'lengthy conversation' videos as much as the actual painting tutorials. You guys continue to entertain and impress me.

[@clockmonkey]

Watched the whole thing over several days and really enjoyed it. Loved it.

[@volkarve]

Geoff was on fire this episode! I laughed so hard at his quips. Great video as always guys cheers!

[@thepaintingphase]

Legend!

[@WardenOfTerra]

He can finally rant about his military career to somebody that can relate lmao

[@pjfisher82]

Just found you guys through Liam, such a great chat and very insightful. Will be subscribing and watching more of these

[@k12frosty77]

Great show . Mr Dempsey on form as always. Keep up the good work!

[@puppaz8210]

Liam's a great watch, enjoy listening to him just chatting on his stream.

[@SgtMaj22]

I love my weekly dose of the "Old World" You Tubes. As a guy living in the New World (read as Canada) I love listening to the chill conversation on Side Tracked, reminds me of friends sitting around chewing the fat. Keep up the good work!

[@minimaher82]

Had the pleasure of meeting Mr the Liam Dempsey last year at WHW. In person he's exactly as he is on camera, which is always a good sign to my mind!

[@hipettyhop]

Great to see Josh, The Warhipster get a shout out! Such a lovely guy and a true talent ☺

[@RickJagger13]

hell yeah we got Liam!!!! 🙌🏼

[@Stormhierta]

Garage-hammer is the BEST Warhammer. We love Narrative Gaming, we do Tournaments, but having fun with your mates is the KEY and if anything Liam's group showcases that diversity.

[@FrankieRogersArt]

Yet again another great episode that has introduced me to another awesome creator. Thanks guys!

[@jsseehorn]

I definitely agree about having Unit cards that don't change constantly. If they want to keep the update/balancing schedule they could sell a small pack of USR/Keyword cards to go with them that they can update the rules on and replace them easier and cheaper quickly. Even better if they would offer them via PDF so they could be downloaded and printed off whenever they want to update or correct them. Since they seem to want to switch to more subscription models the PDFs could be available as live documents for subs (don't love this idea but if you could avoid buying and carrying around books it might be worth it.)

[@jonasmoody5750]

Loved this chat! I’m definitely in both the narrative and competitive camps, and it’s good to hear discussion that there’s room in the hobby for both.

[@galtshobbycorner]

I love these long episodes, it takes me days to watch and I use them to help me fall asleep haha

[@paulbarnes8905]

Need some egg boxes on the walls here! Much love x

[@Firedoomcaster]

See, I’ve seen so many tournament players complain that tenth edition has rejected tournament play for narrative. And I went to a massive narrative game using tenth and it was so much fun, re-rolls and all. My old one eye was directly in front of a gun line of tanks, Lemun Russ’s, Shadowswords, baneblades, you name it. They all targeted him. They got him down to 1 wound through killing his unit, then through his feel no pain roll. But then one Commissar lifted his pistol, shot him in the head and I failed his save and his feel no pain roll. The whole table cheered, including me. :)

[@zramirez5471]

1) I've been not just listening but watching this whole time, and I still don't understand how we got to wolves in Yellowstone and Operation Beaver Drop! 2) My very favorite episodes are the ones where Warhammer becomes the accidental tangent XD Love you Liam!

[@retropixel2000]

Something quite interesting in warhammer is that there's quite a divide in how meta and winrates are percieved, been playing tcgs for like 10 years lots of them tend to communicate like "this deck can win a locals", "this deck can top a tournament", the only ones that sorta do it are the Art of War guys, but if you're not into competitive you aren't watching them at all. I think that also creates a divide in the community since a lot of people see a bad winrate and feel discouraged even if their "bad and undertuned army" could win their matches in locals

[@AtticsTV]

Stat Check does this pretty well where they won’t just break down win rates, but extra stats, as well as the win rates based on bottom, mid, and top tables. It was here where you see Ad Mech doing really well at bottom (casual) tables then falling off as you get competitive. And this matches my experience: I win a lot of casual games as ad mech. (Note: does not change that the army is unfun on top of non competitive)

[@Rob-nq6br]

Great interview! Always love hearing how other people play away from the tournament scenes. Tbf with Aliens, they are meant to be cocky, over confident and not actually done any real combat. Everyone has a plan until a xenomorph takes off your head.

[@green_manc]

The beard display is glorious! Patricks rocking the grizzly adams meets gomez adams

[@daemonnexusknight]

This was a pleasure to watch/listen to. Made my work day better. :)

[@Rob-nq6br]

I would love for you guys to try the One Page Rules games (Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy) and see your thoughts on them. They have rejuvenated my "40K" gaming as I get to actually push my toys around without carrying a library with me.

[@WorldBleeder]

This had me laughing throughout the episode, really enjoyed it. Thanks all!

[@Glatius]

Damn such a long episode but I was enthralled the whole way, great job everyone as always :)

[@DaronSchmit]

Something I've come started to do when it comes to folks posting their models or seeing them in person is to compliment them on something, regardless of how they look. Maybe asking them a couple questions about how they liked the process to get them talking. If and only if they ask for feedback, you ask what they want feedback on, then offer it. As a painter, especially a starting painter, there's nothing worse than being proud of a mini and someone picks apart something you tried really hard at. Sure they didn't know and sure they didn't mean anything by it, but it still sucks. And if you can't think of anything, just a "Nice! Those look great! There's nothing better than having a painted force on the table!" Boom. Done. I once painted a mini for my first competition (a theoden on horse). I tried really hard to make it look as good as the box art. The first thing that was said to me about the mini from a judge was "this looks like a gaming mini, not a competition mini". What a buzz kill. Was he right? Yeah. Should I have braces myself for rough feedback? Yeah. Could it have been a better experience. Yeah. In any case, great episode!

[@CityofLight11]

I know this is the better option of the two, but personally the knowledge that this approach is also widespread means that I feel like any negative feedback = person thinks mini is shit, any positive feedback = person is being polite, thinks mini is shit. But this is heavily anxiety flavoured.

[@jules9094]

Hey guys. Mediocre Hobbies has one of the easiest painting styles to follow. Painted my whole Salamanders army following his techniques that he used for Adrax Agatone. Worth a watch

[@danny3tricks377]

Welcome to the supermarket phase 😂😂 Love these awesome little tangents

[@namewastaken360]

Liam's plan for finding Alpharius is the same as Tyrion's plan to find out who was spying for Cerci.

[@CygnusMaximusXIII]

I live in an area where they repopulate places with planes, and they actually put the animals in a big crate with a parachute attached to a slack line to deploy it. There's a mechanism on the crate that opens it when it lands so the animals can get out. It's surprisingly straightforward.

[@TheDysartes]

I played Napoleonic's when I was in the Army, and most of my mates didn't know because they'd have just taken the mick. So a lot of the guys I played with were officers and I was a Gunner, a lot of the time I ended up painting their minis, at the time I started working in the Sgt's Mess behind the bar and on quiet nights I'd paint 1/72 minis. Then I found out two Sgt's use to be big wargamers, and we started gaming on a Wednesday night as it was quiet. I'd still be covering the bar and playing, eventually it went from just the three of us to half a dozen and Wednesday night got busier lol... So I got less games in.... On the topic of Xmas movies, First Blood is a Christmas movie, it's set during the festive season and therefore it's a Christmas movie.

[@Mr_Stuey]

Another great chat. I agree with the weekend bombardment online. I now don't look at the models that people post because of the over saturation of the same stuff. It has the opposite effect for me and I simply see the content now as corporate and very samey. Which is a shame as some great stuff out there on the new releases but it's now swamped with posts of the same stuff. Or the posts of....I have all this stuff to promote but not built it yet, but the fear of not putting something online in the wave means there I lose interest

[@reg2356]

Great to see presenters of two of my favourite channels in the same stream 🙂

[@angelofmalice0]

Don’t normally watch the show but I’ve really enjoyed this one. I am of the opinion that there are no leaks coming out of games workshop, and it’s all intentional.

[@lamicrobio...engros5427]

That was an amazing talk, it made my day ^^

[@davegarghan6180]

Totally agree on the re-roll mechanic. We house ruled it out of all ours games and it makes more wow moments for sure!

[@THX-to6gg]

I’ve given up on every GW ruleset with the exception of MESBG and Space Hulk , I find One Page Rules meets my simple needs.

[@garyjenson1326]

I loved the old studio I kinda felt like it was a member of the cast. I liked the tighter shots and package interruptions.😅

[@the_0rdinary]

About the whole conversation around 40k being all about scoring points and not about having "fun", it really just all depends around what your definition of fun is. I, personally, really enjoy the tactical and strategic side of the game and really really like having to think about what I'm going to do to score points and block my opponent from scoring points. That's fun for me, and I love 10th's ruleset for that. You don't, and that's okay, it just seems like the conversation was veering towards a "fun is only ever about narrative moments and tournament/competitive players aren't having fun, they're just in it to win" direction.

[@adamcarpenter7890]

There definitely is a show to be had in Operation Beaverdrop, HBO’s Band of Beavers

[@OfficialObsidianGrey]

Kinda blown away by how much cheaper bread is in the UK than in the USA

[@Taranthis]

Pat, your roundabout joke was not unappreciated :D I loved it.

[@Chaplain_Dazzler]

Oooh stuck in Belfast airport for 3 hrs, this'll do!! 👍

[@andrewdickinson1041]

The story about the secret Warhammer bunker on camp just sounds like the Lodges in the Heresy era legions 😂

[@edwilson5727]

i cannot say...

[@anthonyplayter2981]

How to make 40k more narrative: WD 296 had an amazing objective based scenario generation system; the Dark Millennium section of the 4th ED rulebook; create some random tables to roll on - weather, random deployment setups ect...; or even get a 3rd party to create a situation. Off note, the AOF: regiments scenarios (advanced) are brilliant.

[@alexbransgrove9966]

Great episode guys!!

[@The_Kazarian]

The two creators in the hobby space I support collaborating is a delightful Sunday treat

[@namewastaken360]

My wife writes me a list when I go to the shops. I normally leave it in the kitchen and she then has to send me a picture of it...

[@DaronSchmit]

An interesting note about old CRT TVs and graphics is that due to the way the pixels are showed, resolutions seem sharper on those TVs than the same resolution on modern LCDs, OLEDs, etc...

[@Bucket_Boy101]

Geoff's talking about his former military rigidity in supernarkets made me realise why my old man prganised his shopping list by how things were organised in the supermarket. Hes a Vietnam Vet.

[@Andy__H]

Doesn’t everyone do that…? 😁

[@imalu5757]

I remember from the warseer days there was a couple of guys that clearly had insider information and “leaked” all the upcoming fantasy releases including the mythical dwarf tank

[@davydatwood3158]

I don't know if Geoff remembers, but Stargrunt II focuses heavily on what would be called "narrative" play today. either a GM or the two players agree on what the mission is for each side, and what constitutes a full victory, partial victory, or loss. And, like in the real world, it is possible for both sides win, or both sides to lose. It really reminds me of the stories of the origin of D&D - Gygax and others were apparently running this big World War 2 minis game at tournaments, and there would be all sorts of tiny little "factions" with very narrative goals, down to things like "you are playing the post office, you have three figures, you win if you can get into base contact with the leader of at least 4 of the 6 major forces (in order to deliver a letter)." Stargrunt's target priority rules are also very much assuming a "friendly" game between reasonable people: a unit will always engage the enemy unit that is a) in line of sight; b) in the least cover, and c) presents the most danger. That last is, of course, entirely subjective. Obviously the core rules are very different between the two games, but these general concepts could easily be adopted into any "garagehammer" game.

[@thepaintingphase]

Stargrunt is a great rules system, probably my favourite sniper rules, I’ve ever played.

[@Blacknight8850]

My best story about falling asleep watching movies is the one time I tried watching _Apocalypse Now._ I managed to fall asleep as Willard was leaving on the boat to go assassinate Colonel Kurtz, and woke up as he was arriving at Kurtz' compound, and didn't realise I'd fallen asleep! I was sat there as the credits rolled going "Wasn't there meant to be a war in this movie? What happened to the "smell of napalm in the morning" and all that?"

[@simonb7711]

Nothing beats the security guards outside the 24hr Greggs in Newcastle!

[@dhaosandy]

Specifically in Warhammer, if you use a larger base, that's disadvantaging yourself, if you use a smaller base then you are giving yourself an advantage, not much, it amounts to +1 attack, at most. Unless your models lap round (don't think this is in Old World rules).

[@LokeBroken]

Great as always guys! 😁✌🏻 love listening to u guys when I hobby! U should have the guys from “Look out Sir” podcast as guest! 😁👍🏻 keep up the great work! And happy new year!

[@wolfhartangbarar2433]

round about is always the better option... self regulation vs time loss via traffic light

[@carlofhodgy1501]

See all the painting phase team playing some garage hammer with Mr Liam?

[@thelonelybolter8245]

1:01:03 12/10 here for Geoff ecology facts. That circle of life is sweeeeeet ;)

[@thepaintingphase]

😂😂😂 - Geoff

[@RichDoesGames]

I'm so glad liam mentioned that about instagram hobbyists making content with their free minis every release, it's almost a taboo topic.

[@thesigmaritepainter7803]

Fantastic podcast as always!

[@billdoor1569]

me and my brother were on a recruitment drive in Chilwell just down the hill from the Gym near the carpark and gatehouse, we were chatting away and an CSM comes down and says hello to my brother then pretty much knife hands me "you the warhammer fella", Yes I say thinking he is about to take the piss, nope, "excellent, lets go for a walk and talk" Afterwards my brother tells me he has known him for 5 years and they have barely spoken a word, the power of Warhams.

[@EdwardCarr-g3u]

Loved the discussion about narrative play. But it doesn't sound like you've got a problem with 10th edition, the problem is with the Leviathan Mission pack. I've played loads of games of 10th but never played any game from the mission pack. We either make up our own missions, use modified ones from previous editions etc. It would be great to see more sharing of homebrew missions.

[@Sam-vs2es]

Warhammer Ipswich claims another! I learnt there as a kid in the early 2000s too :)

[@zimagic]

Favourite War: The Australian Emu War. Hands down.

[@Dementia55372]

1:05:21 : "I've only ever played 40k but I'm starting to branch out into [names 3 other GW games]"

[@evulutionofgaming]

So let down the title wasn't the man with the majestic beard. lol Great Episode.

[@carlofhodgy1501]

This Liam guy is the most relatable Warhammer celeb I’ve watched!

[@ElAhrem]

Guys, is there a possibility of giving a mention to the Great Emu War of Australia in the 1930s. It's just as random as Operation Beaverdrop but a famous Australian military defeat, and wasn't even facing a human enemy! Nab: Australians are the only nation which actually eats the animals featured on its crest.

[@danuk459]

Please can you expand your "Guest Interviews" playlist? Its only got one in and given these don't have the title "Sidetracked", they're a bit harder to find if you're not sure who's already been on

[@thepaintingphase]

Fair point, we’ll look into it.

[@stainsbykingsby1889]

To chime in on the narrative or ‘moments’ of playing 40K, I went up against a friend of mine who plays Imperial Knights with my Necrons. I knew going in I was going to be wrecked, but it was ‘to defend the Tomb World’ etc. and ended with a Knight, punching my Silent King to death and causing a chain explosion between all of my castled up vehicles 🤣 we still laugh about that months later! (And no command re-rolls were used)

[@green_manc]

Liams life feels so like mine, running the store and my partner running her business sitting down to watch something for an hour cos were sitting for a meal at 10 is all too reals

[@Frantik33]

wow I am doing the exact opposite to Liam's advice. I am starting an ad mech army 🤣. Just love the models

[@joshgrillo2482]

Sidetracked- my favorite show!

[@DarkB7ade]

About Rebel Moon: On the one hand, it's cool to see some 40k influences in film, on the other hand, it feels like they did the costume design by plugging the guard codex into one of those "what 40k would look like in the 80's" A.I filters. It's cool to see that stuff, but it feels lazy for a big budget film!

[@ernstbergerbrent]

I like how Liam focuses on the fact that you can play house rules in your narrative games. Competitive play can be intimidating.

[@GeekEnglish]

agree on the re roll stuff taking me out the game. It's like VAR in football don't know if I can celebrate a goal or taking out an enemy unit because they will probably go to VAR or re roll a save

[@thepaintingphase]

Well said. This is exactly the example I gave off air-Geoff

[@mattgroditski3547]

Get this man some streaking grime. It will change his world

[@pineomt]

Great convo

[@M0U53B41T]

Prefer narrative overall - it's like Peachy said, I remember that moment my terminator stood up to a friend's Dreadnought - couldn't tell you who won the game though! RE: barrel drilling- I used to josh about it with friends, but when people started taking it so seriously I stopped. , And just for S's and G's now, I make everyone unhappy. I drill some barrels. I paint a dot on some. And some I leave completly alone! lol

[@danielkochis5133]

HeroQuest Thursdays! Do it! You know you want to.

[@teessidetyrants1989]

Another great show. Cheers gents.

[@eagleclaw899]

Regarding roundabouts, I was looking into the scary UK ones up to send to/terrorise a friend overseas and noticed that one of them is listed on google maps as “Magic Roundabout” whereas the other one is listed as “THE Magic Roundabout”

[@Chaplain_Dazzler]

Hemel Hempstead?

[@leeksveeks4572]

Liam being on the show made me feel like when you’re introducing friends to each other and hoping they get on. Needn’t have worried. Great show all. Can’t wait for future collabs!

[@V1P3I2]

Have you guys seen Magrathea builder of worlds? He loves a bit of necromunda!

[@carlstanford7607]

Great guest. Would love to see Valrak on too. Great job lads

[@zramirez5471]

Please no - Valrak is such a GW simp I think he actually believes the Ultramarines are the best part of 40k... no disrespect to him, I just can't. All the worse for me as NO ONE has the level of insider info that he does

[@drathlor]

Please dear god no Valrak simping.

[@ChapterMasterValrak]

​@@zramirez5471 Yeah screw him, he's definitely a GW psy-op inserted into the 40K fandom to misinform about the latest rumours!

[@DavosTheDegen]

@@ChapterMasterValrak I hate that Valrak guy, what a shill

[@ChapterMasterValrak]

@@DavosTheDegen I say we wait for him in the GW Car park and deck him!

[@davydatwood3158]

Well, that took a couple days to get through. Not a complaint though! Just an excuse for why I'm, posting two comments days apart. :) Anyway, on the base thing - I've had issues with figure basing a couple time playing Song of Blades and Heroes, but not because something was on a 32mm when it was supposed to be 28mm or whatever. Rather, it was because one player was using Reaper miniatures that weren't based (beyond the built-in "broccoli" base of the figure). We'd all agreed that this would cause issues with movement, being in base contact, and so on, so we agreed to pretend those figures had 1 inch bases on them. But this still resulted in several moments where there was confusion and disagreement. about where the edge of this virtual base was. SBH has fairly restricted movement, so a few mm can actually make a difference, and not having an unequocal marker of where a figure's reach ended could - and did - easily turn contentious. After having three or four games end up with all involved being annoyed, but recognising that the player didn't want to permanently base figures that they also displayed, I solved the problem by painting some spare bases green and bringing some thin double-sided tape. We'd mount the Reaper figs long enough for the game, and then take them off again after. And all agreed this was better. So I think it's important that any miniature used for a game have a base that properly represents the figure's in-game footprint. But that doesn't have to be perfect - good enough is good enough, and as long as there's reasonable consistency throughout the game, a few mm here and there doesn't matter.

[@danajadzia3390]

I always assumed the marines in Aliens were a bunch of screw-ups that no one else wanted.

[@MHR1001]

Thanks for another good video, loving this chewing the fat format at the moment. 👍

[@luketfer]

The other problem with balance is that they'll heavily nerf overperforming stuff and barely buff underperforming stuff or they'll just not buff the stuff that is needed because the army, overall, is performing well due to a very specific subset of units. For example Ork Dreds, Killa Kans and the Stompa are basically not worth taking at the moment. Especially the Stompa because it is massively overcosted (it's like 800 points-ish) but it's not 800 points worth of good and seems to be overcosted purely because it's A) a big model and B) it has a large transport capacity. It could see a massive reduction in points cost (you could easily cost it at around 500 points, still more expensive than most of the big Knight units) and only then would it be 'takeable' in a tournie scene. However this problem has ALWAYS plagued the Stompa, being the biggest plastic kit GW produces (in terms of size, I would say the Baneblade kit is the actual biggest because it has all the stuff in there for all the variants) they've almost always overcosted it by a significant margin. However Orks on the whole are performing 'ok' in tournaments (that are focused on Squads of Nobz mounted in Trukks and blobs of gretchin to hold objectives) so they rarely recieve sweeping points reductions to things like Dreads, Kans and the Stompa.

[@mikeybrokie1516]

about time!

[@SirFluffy100]

As an OPR player, i love laughing at all your struggles

[@aroncheek5092]

All the changes are part of why I don't play , I bought a pathfinder kill team last year to practice detail painting and brush techniques, I then started getting interested in playing so I got the getting started magazine, then the recruit edition with the necron/space marines , I've now started building on my tau and Ork armies as I enjoyed painting them. My question is do I bother with playing the 9th edition recruit set or do I go and get the 10th edition recruit set or does it not matter? Do start with kill team or combat patrol, I want to start playing with a friend who I will have to explain the rules to once I've processed them myself. 😬. Another great video guys ❤

[@benytreeide568]

As an American I can confirm that roundabouts are all around where I live. They seem to help traffic flow better in some areas, but I there are other areas where it doesn't help.

[@benwooding1311]

They're the right solution for certain types of junction and traffic flow. They sort of rely on all 4 directions Not having cars arrive at the same time.

[@celestiallions4050]

Most of the places where I'm seeing roundabouts introduced in the US are places where they want to reduce people's speeding