What Would It Take to Convert Me Back to Christianity?

[@prestokrevlar]

I think it would be harder to convert me to Christianity than to make me a believer in God.

[@Finckelstein]

It would be 100% impossible to get me to believe in christianity. In a different god....maybe with proper evidence. But the christian mythology is so utterly ridiculous and nonsensical it's not even remotely coherent. And there's no way I could ever become gullible enough to believe it.

[@moleedaboi]

Yep, believing is some form of Deity is honestly pretty easy. Religion is the one in question.

[@travis1240]

Yes. Absolutely. The whole "god sacrificing himself to himself to be able to forgive his own creation" is pretty far fetched. I would need a really, really good explanation for that one. A god existing though - I don't see any evidence for that but if sufficient evidence was presented to me I'd believe that this god existed. Whether this god deserves to be worshipped is another matter entirely.

[@moleedaboi]

If someone tells me they believe something initiated the existence of the universe and they lable that a god for some reason. I'd have an easier time accepting that (even though there's a lot of holes to be poked), It just seems more rational than someone who thinks that thing is actually alive and monotoring our lives, has control over every single particle, down to the quarks in the universe, and also sends you to a pit of fire if you disobey his rules. Those extra characteristics just sound like the human psyche projecting its own ideas on that deity.

[@MoeKyorosuke]

Same. The claims make so much assumptions and logical leaps, and at times outright contradict both each other and observable reality. Even if the Christian God existed, for all I know he is an immoral douchebag. And as for "all I know", I mean a bunch of texts nobody really knows the authors of.

[@pameladeleone135]

I am one of those atheists that has faced death several times, Never did any god pop into my head. Also when my Dad ,( who's father was a minister) was in WW11, that is when he became an atheist. He said men would fall to their knees and beg god to save them,,, they got killed. My father didn't do that, he fought back. He became an atheist seeing that during the war.

[@ilmt]

So much for "no one is atheist in the trenches" or how is the saying.

[@bidenator9760]

​@@ilmt"No atheists in foxholes." One of the dumbest slogans of all time. Not to mention unpatriotic, which the types who use these sayings to begin with claim to be the opposite of.

[@ilmt]

@@bidenator9760 That's the one. Thanks!

[@RobertJones-gq3jq]

An atheist born in a fox hole more like it

[@cubirk]

WW11 DUDE WHAT HAPPENED I WAS WITHOUT MY PHONE 1 WEEK AND THE WORLD DOES THIS????

[@mahatmarandy5977]

Speaking as a Christian Who was raised in the church, reasonably well, educated in history and science and philosophy, and an above average working knowledge of scripture, I have not been able to find a church that does not immediately piss me off and 10 or 15 years. (that’s not entirely true. There was a very small, very elderly, very poor church in my town that I actually did like and went to for about a year or so, but it did not survive Covid). So I really appreciate your channel. I like what you’re doing. You are making intellectual points, many of which I agree with, You are not being dogmatic or intolerant (as many skeptics sometimes are), you are not insulting, You clearly understand what you’re talking about, And I really think you are doing a service to both of the believing and nonbelieving communities. So thanks for that !

[@mcv2178]

Like how you said all that

[@Lrbearclaw]

As a Christian in the same boat, I agree 100% with you, mahat.

[@SAK1855]

Not sure where you live, but in urban areas, there are a lot of progressive churches, if that's what you're hoping to find. United Church of Christ is an especially progressive denomination, but most mainline congregations (United Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church USA, Episcopalians, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, etc.) are progressive if they're not in a red area. One tell is the pride flag on the outside; there are plenty of them on churches where I live. But I don't know if that's what you want.

[@forkthepork]

You're halfway there. Keep asking questions and seeking truth.

[@taxes.death.christ]

and thats exactly why i say, his channel is under-appreciated

[@graladue]

I could become convinced to believe in a god or gods, but I think it unlikely that I could become a *christian* . Believing in a god does not inherently mean one would choose to worship it.

[@ItRemindMeOfHome]

​@jackslaughter8843 Because the deity described in the Bible is petty, narcissistic, and murderous. His worshippers to this day include a rogue's gallery of bigots and horrific criminals.

[@hackleberrym]

​@jackslaughter8843 and why would you worship it?

[@enumaelish9193]

​@jackslaughter8843Do you worship your parents or the people who built the city you live in?

[@LddStyx]

@jackslaughter8843 If the creator is evil like for example the Gnostic demiurge. Which do you choose if the choice is between being a good person and worshiping the source of all evil?

[@mercury3352]

@jackslaughter8843 because nothing deserves worship.

[@noteye7353]

I had a friend ask me what it would take to make me a Catholic again, and I made him a list: 1. Demonstrate the supernatural 2. Demonstrate that this supernatural occurrence has/had a willful source 3. Demonstrate that this source is a God, as distinct from a demon/fey/any other magical entity 4. Demonstrate that this god is the Only one. 5. Demonstrate that this lone-god is the same one as described in your bible. 6. Demonstrate that the God of your Bible is deserving of my worship, beyond simple fear of punishment. I have been using this list for years now, and have yet to see anyone cross the first hurdle.

[@Sauvenil]

I summarize the first by saying, there is no supernatural; only natural things that we don't understand completely yet.

[@voltekthecyborg7898]

Use that list against me, I will walk away. You made your choice. You hardened your heart. It's not me giving up: it's me knowing that some obstacles cannot be punched through.

[@BraamBafflehelm]

@@voltekthecyborg7898 but.... aren't all things possible through god?

[@CorwinFound]

This is an amazing list. But interestingly I would actually put your last point as my #1. Before I'd even look at proving the first 6, is it a religion, dogma, and God(s) that meet my moral requirements? If a religion includes Original Sin, any version of damnation or eternal punishment, or disavowal of humans for being human... A big nope from me. A God who rigs Their own game isn't one worthy of worship.

[@theinvestingpalace4710]

@@voltekthecyborg7898nobody cares 😂. Leave and don’t come back. We’ll be fine with our “hardened hearts”

[@sassylittleprophet]

The weirdest realization for me was that I had constructed a much more mentally healthy version of Christianity in my head, but still didn't end up believing it. And then I ended up being angry that I was robbed of the chance to grow up in *this* version of Christianity than the one I did. I probably would've still stopped believing at some point, but being a Christian shouldn't have been literally traumatic.

[@longneck6456]

This IS LITERALLY exactly how it feels i could not say it any better

[@sassylittleprophet]

@longneck6456 I'm glad I could give a voice to that. Sorry you can relate though 💜

[@bubbles581]

Understood! It IS possible to have a healthy Christian mindset!

[@longneck6456]

@@sassylittleprophet yeah growing up in a strictly Christian household with no room for other outlooks and worldviews is very limiting and stressful I feel like I wasted my formative years

[@Agryphos]

This resonates with me as well

[@richardallen144]

Even if it were true that there are no atheists in foxholes, I've never thought that signified very much. Extraordinary circumstances will make people want to believe extraordinary things; that proves nothing about the validity of the belief.

[@einienj3281]

Having been in a bad car accident, I didn't pray for god before the impact, I yelled "oh shit!"..

[@CorwinFound]

If "no atheists in foxholes" was a valid psychological theory, then "no Christians with cancer" should hold as well. And of course it doesn't. Faith, and more specifically devotion, can absolutely be impacted by crisises and challenges, but I think it's pretty rare that it impacts fundamental beliefs. A person on the fence experiencing some horror may be pushed off to one side or the other, but I doubt many people are actually jumping over that fence under life's duress.

[@normative]

I think similarly of all the supposed deathbed conversions folks like to tout. Even when they're not fabricated (like, e.g., Darwin's), are we really supposed to be impressed that you got a frightened dying person in cognitive decline to agree to something?

[@coruscanta]

For sure!! It’s one of those “It doesn’t work at all, but even if it did work, it doesn’t work how you want it to” moments.

[@busterfixxitt]

What if there are only atheists in foxholes? If you were absolutely convinced that paradise awaited you, that God has a perfect plan, why would you ever hide from death?

[@ArabellaLavellan]

What gets me is that Christians bar their doors to keep out so many people, yet freak out as soon as an atheist shares their life story about how religion hurt them.

[@mathpuppy314]

As said in the video, there are many types of Christians, some of which bar their doors, some of which embrace oppressed minorities, some of which are conservative, and others of which are liberal. I am appreciative of atheists like Drew who explain their rationale and think critically about their worldview. I plead you not to stereotype all Christians with any statements like that. Now me personally, I am a Christian who believes in loving and accepting every human soul because each holds infinite value, but I also, for example, believe that homosexuality and gender change is wrong and damaging to a person. In love, I seek to help these people because of what I believe is truth.

[@BryanLu0]

​@@mathpuppy314Wrong for what reason? You can't just say because the Bible says so if the people you are talking to are not believers.

[@SvafaBlackhand]

@@BryanLu0 They can believe it is wrong because the Bible says so, but they can't reasonably rely on others to believe the Bible's reasoning just because they do. You can fight for and seek to help someone even if they don't believe they need help, even if they don't need help. And to derail the conversation a little, there are very provable issues that gender change is damaging to people. From a physical standpoint, this is especially true with a common side effect of hormone therapy being a dramatic loss of bone density, among many other issues, which can easily be compounded when used in a still-developing, immature body. Additionally, I think we have taken a dangerously gnostic approach to the issue, refusing to consider gender dysphoria as a potentially mental or emotional issue, and instead diagnosing it as a physical issue to be corrected through surgery and drugs; the mind is being treated as paramount and infallible, and the body as something that must be corrected and fixed. Instead, I believe it would often be healthier and safer to consider the mental and emotional well-being of individuals and to help them come to an acceptance of their body.

[@davidlafleche1142]

​@@mathpuppy314Prove it.

[@BryanLu0]

@@SvafaBlackhand However the issue is that conversion therapy has a low efficacy rate when compared to medical transition. It's unreasonable to use a worse treatment, when possible outcomes include sewer slides. The medical literature shows that the sewer slide ality rate decreases dramatically after transition. Also, bone density issues are combated with calcium supplements. It's been a known issue, and there is a solution.

[@HumblyQuestioning]

I have a family member who is a closet atheist (and this will NEVER change). they once told me when their beliefs were abandoned and I was surprised. They said "30 years I walked into an inpatient pediatric cancer clinic and immediately knew the god of the Bible, the god of my church, couldn't exist and if he does I'd rather be in hell if what I saw was his love".

[@virkots]

Honestly, I think most christians are closet atheists. They're in it for sociological reasons. Social pressure, upbringing etc. Or let me put it like this: they would leave the church immediately if all their family and friends suddenly did. They don't _really_ believe in the bible.

[@bubbercakes528]

I have bipolar disorder. For that reason I feel the same. I hope your family member has won the fight!

[@virkots]

@@bubbercakes528 you're not alone

[@carolbaker2773]

I always had an issue with the argument that “sin is in the world so bad stuff still happens”. I’m sorry, what kind of all powerful god do you worship again?

[@jkwanda]

​@@carolbaker2773Well God is all-powerful, and able to FORCE things around but wouldnt that make God a tyrant? Yet God is love, He still let us choose to not sin.. Sin is still here because HUMAN still chooses sin than His ways.. we choose to follow our flesh, eating unhealthy foods thus we are obese, overworked thus we are stressed, follow the things on this world, thus we are depressed instead of following what His true will are for all of us.. cancer is the product of our sins, cant u see that cancer only spikes in these end times where it was said, the world grows more and more evilish.. who knows what will come after.. it does not surprised me anymore when u can clearly see, people are normalizing lgbt, then pedophilia, whats next? Beastiality? The world has grown sick and sicker each day.. if only we can choose what God wants for us.. it starts with each one of us to truly seek Him.. He already opens His arms, its our choice to reject or accepts His ways not our ways..

[@the_mr_wyatt]

Great video. I've been in "the church" for my entire life, and a Christian for three or so decades now. I appreciate thoughtful videos like this, laid out plainly and calmly. I wish more on the side professing Christian beliefs would put in this much effort. Videos like this help me communicate with my daughters, as well as others around me, who have different beliefs. I hate knowing I could have been nicer, kinder, more accepting of people around me for years,. Ultimately I didn't learn that in church, I learned it from a kindhearted KZbinr. So again, to put it simply, thank you.

[@liia9736]

There are many channels that talk about Christianity with this much effort, and dare I say, even more effort and thought. Mike Winger and Bishop Barron come to mind, but there are many others.

[@CorruptedSpider]

I honestly appreciate your existence. The very fact that there are people like you who use these videos, not to get angrier, but to understand the other side is amazing. Thanks for the comment, Even if I am not author.

[@Illumian84]

I grew up Christian in the bible belt, and ended up having issues with the faith starting from a young age, and fell into the trap of nonbelief as mental superiority. As an adult I realized tat the majority of people I knew who believed did so not because they lacked the intelligence to question, but because of social pressure or more often a need to believe in something, anything, to give meaning to the suffering they and the world experienced. The so called "God's Plan". At which point I grew jealous of them as I could not believe as they do despite my desire for the sense of comfort the belief would bring about my place in the world and the meaning to my suffering. The biggest issue I have with Christianity isnt even a lack of belief in a god, but that to me the god described in the bible doesnt seem to be worthy of worship.

[@Gingercornbread]

Amen!

[@scribblescrabble3185]

That kinda reminds me of the little town my mother was from and my grandparents. All there were Lutherans and at least half are to this day highly religious. But they believed (as I would say) in a diffrent god than the one described in the bible, a kinder one. It took me a while to understand that non of my family actually believed in the existence of that god despite it actually being a benevolent one, at that point I already had stopped believing for almost a decade or more. My aunt explained, that my grandpa liked the rituals and the community. Church as the place to see others and to be seen, and to find job opportunities. He was a mechanic, metalsmith and plumber, sundays was his day for advertisment.

[@japie8466]

For the sake of argument let’s suppose there is a God. What would make that God worthy of your worship? What would be the ‘ideal’ God?

[@annb9029]

Have you researched Greek Orthodoxy

[@jelleskates5003]

God is worthy of praise not for what he can do for you, but because he authored everything. And he has authority over us because of his love for us. He intentionally is being patient with us because he desires us to be reconciled to him. (Romans 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) He does not delight in suffering, but is forced to discipline as any parent would as an insintive to bring us back to him. (Lamentations 3:33; Ezekiel 18:23) And even though none of us are worthy of love he proved he loved us by sending himself to die for us. Not because of our own righteousness but simply because of his great love for us. (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8) So because he lived an wholly uncorrupted live, something no one else has done, he is deemed worthy of our praise. So that in the last days every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that he is Lord. And those who have rejected him will no longer be able to claim his righteous as a gift and be punished for their corruption. This is why I believe he is worthy of praise.

[@M2daBwitdaQinbetween]

The point you made at about 5 minutes about claiming the label of skeptic but not falling into the reactionary politics that so many have is why you are one of the few atheist skeptic KZbinrs I still watch regularly. Thank you for that

[@einienj3281]

Too difficult to have faith after losing it. Can't have faith when you don't have trust anymore.

[@laughxs5306]

Faith and trust are different though

[@davidmeehan4486]

An interesting perspective. I also used to be a Christian. I don't think I ever had faith, though. I believed that Christianity was true the same way that I believed anything else was true. My parents promoted Christianity to me. I trusted them, which I still do on most matters. Therefore, I believed in Christianity. Faith was always at odds with how I was taught to think about everything but religion. Over time, I've only come to appreciate rationality or scientific skepticism or whatever you want to call it more and more. It's really hard to imagine my ever developing faith.

[@VioVanHelsing]

One of my favorite lines from Theramin Trees goes something like "A magic trick, once explained, can no longer deceive".

[@milko540]

@@davidmeehan4486 I had a similar experience. As time went on, the Western rationalism that was borne out of medieval scholastic theology which permeates every aspect of western thought today disappeared from my worldview as I delved into Holy Orthodoxy. The Eastern worldview is just so much richer and deeper than the Enlightenment thought that birthed modern rationalism that I don't see myself ever going back. Christ is King

[@jasminemcgarigle8834]

@@laughxs5306nah

[@johncoppola7447]

If I saw an amputee regrow a limb in my presence while being prayed over I would consider it

[@blupandax7902]

Lizards can regenerate limbs without needing supernatural powers so you would likely say that the amputee had a genetic mutation that allowed limb regeneration. Still won’t make you Christian.

[@jdsartre9520]

And even then... sufficiently advanced technology are there biological organisms that already regrow limbs

[@andreasvox8068]

I would wonder a) which countriy's black genetics lab produced that medical technology and b) why is that guy trying to sell me some religious mumbo jumbo?

[@Amfrabrikerbabbin]

Kenneth Copeland has Laboratory underneath his Compound where his Scientists have produced Humans with Amphibian DNA that are capable of growing replacement limbs if need be. Subjects are also able to use left, or right hand predominantly.

[@1001011011010]

The poison of doubt is that it is almost always possible to doubt, but then we are stuck in a loop where nothing is ever good enough to sufficiently prove the proposition. At a certain point, skepticism becomes denial (and, ironically, dogmatic). Phenomenal conservatism is intuitive, practical, and a flexible epistemology that just makes sense.

[@jaredwarner3972]

I am a pastor and an elder within a denomination. I have often enjoyed your videos and find that they facilitate a deepening of my faith. I am a sceptic at heart too. I question everything and in my experience I think of all religious groups Jewish and Christian expressions of faith often allow for the raising of questions and seeking answers. I am glad you are honest. I hope you find the space and community you need.

[@MZmuda5]

God bless you Pastor. I think your search for truth DOES bring you closer to God. I think (as it's said in the bible) that Satan is the king of lies; NOT God. To know God is to know the Truth, and to know Truth is to know God. So keep learning, keep THINKING, and keep being there for your congregation. God bless.

[@sk_lxr2920]

@@MZmuda5 It's very interesting to hear the few christians like you who encourage this, when the first thing that drew me to satanism back when I practiced it more fervently was that it also encouraged to question everything and seek the truth-- something I had never heard within the christian religious circles I grew up in. These discussion always open my mind to more view points. And I'm glad there's people like you out there that don't shout left and right to just believe because it's the truth and instead encourage to learn and think to understand why people consider it the truth. I hope you're well.

[@tripolarmdisorder7696]

The biblical god tells the very first lie, in Genesis. He says that eating from the tree of Knowledge will unalive them. A lie! "Satan" is a Hebrew word for advisory. There are three satans in the old testament, none of which are Lucifer.

[@jelleskates5003]

@sk_lxr2920 I feel like most of my Christian community is entirely focused on seeking truth whether through science or scripture. It's disappointing that people, christians and non christians, are so susceptible to groupthink.

[@mishmoshing]

⁠@@tripolarmdisorder7696The common Christian explanation for God’s first ‘lie’ is that, instead of severing man’s connection to their state of living, eating the fruit instead severs their connection with God. I’m an agnostic person who was raised in a protestant Christian household, so while I don’t believe that Christianity is the correct interpretation of a higher power, I do believe it is important to recognize that many interpretations of the Christian Bible detract from what is literally there. Many of the parables that Jesus tells are just that-parables-hypothetical stories that are told with a heavy volume of figurative language for the purpose of explaining a concept. Of course, lots of Christian people believe in the tales of miracles and phenomena that surrounds stories such as Moses parting the sea, or Jesus healing sickness, or the Peter and John healing a blind man that one time. Christian often pick and choose which Biblical story or quote they want to be interpreted literally or metaphorically. I just think it’s short-sighted and shallow to barge in on these people’s faith and attempt to undermine it so matter-of-fact-ly when your point of reason is so easily debunked.

[@honkoff99]

I don't like gods who play games. Make an appearance, why don't you, God? Pick up a mountain and use it like a crayon to write, "Hello, my peeps!" across the sky. Enough of this "blind faith" nonsense. How about a little personal responsibility, God? Why is it on us to prove You exist?

[@saucysos]

If you were to read the Old Testament, G-d’s later miracles often come in the form of the Israelites achieving military victory against overwhelming odds, examples being the Kingdoms of Bashan and Jericho. Hm, when have we seen the ISRAELites achieve a victory against overwhelming odds? - 1948 Israeli War of Independence - 1967 Six-Day War - 1973 Yom Kippur War All were 3-front wars that Israel won with relatively little support compared to their adversaries, very similar to the miracles in Nevi’im.

[@honkoff99]

@@saucysos I still don't see God peeping up his God head over the horizon to demand props for these "miracles". It may as well been Tinkerbell aiding the Israelites, but I guess she was busy during the Pogroms and the Holocaust.

[@yargolocus4853]

@@saucysos oh that's an excellent point. Instead of dismissing it like so many "I just need evidence" people do, I will challenge it. Have there been other cases of military victories against overwhelming odds by non-israelites? where there other factors that could explain the seemingly impossible outcomes? How much did the inevitable propaganda affect the reporting accuracy? Have other religions caused similar tangible boons? really, this is a really good way to quantify and prove christianity as the one true religion. I'd be willing to look at any graph there is for studying this sort of phenomena.

[@radvlad504]

If God did that...would you choose to worship him? If the answer is no (which it probably is) then you prove his point. God knows that simply showing himself *is not enough* to get you to choose to worship him. It's not enough that you know he exists. He wants you to choose to follow him. _But why doesn't God make me worship him Aren't all things possible through God?_ Because that's not a relationship. If he makes you choose him, you are being forced to worship him. He wants you to choose. It is possible for God to change your heart and make you choose him. But he doesn't want to do that. He wants us to choose him out of our own free will. He has stayed true to his promise about giving us free will, the freedom of choice to do whatever we want. _Okay, so then why doesn't God give me enough evidence to choose to believe in him?_ He has. And you're choosing not to investigate. And if you have investigated, you're choosing not to believe in it. And I know why we choose not to believe in it. Because God is asking you to change everything about your life; the way you live, the way you think. God has something to say about your very own subjective desires, and it makes us uncomfortable. But what separates true Christians from the rest is that they swallow their pride and choose to live a life that isn't only for this material and transient world. If you read the Bible, you will see that God can literally show himself to people and they will _still_ do the wrong thing. Showing himself undeniably is not enough to get people to follow his commands. That's it.

[@HenrikBSWE]

@@radvlad504 Not without any questions, no, but it would be a very good start. I would most likely want a conversation and ask what kind of worship He wants and why, and I would ask about the reasons for every rule and command until I understood. I agree that just by showing that a supernatural creator being exists, He wouldn't convince me that it would be morally right or in my or others best interest to worship Him, but I would be very thankful because I've spent hundreds of hours praying and thousands of hours pondering the arguments, and if I would be convinced He existed it would be much easier to establish some kind of relationship. The foundation of any relationship is interaction. The relationship that God wants in relation to humanity is according to most Christians as a Father, but being a Father is a role of responsibility. If I had a chance to speak with God I would ask him a lot of questions, and I know that you think many of those questions would be rude, but they are genuin questions. I don't understand how, in the creation, He would expect Eve to see through the lies of one of the smartest being in existence? If He created such a smart being knowing that he would be able to fool another being that He created, then I have some problems accepting that the fall of man really was "mans" fault. Would it have been "against free will" to step in, being omnipresent, and say "There is no candy in the white van"? No. That is just not true. I was raised in an atheist household in a primarily atheist family, but I have been trying to investigate for about 30 years now. I don't live for material things and it has never really interested me. My only Christian relative growing up offered me money to get confirmed when I was a young teen, and when I tried to read the bible at that time it didn't answer any of my questions, so I said no to the money out of moral conviction even though we was quite poor. I read the bible, and as an adult I have a much greater understanding of it than I had as a child though it is still lacking, but yes. I agree with you. Since neither Christians nor any character in the Bible except from God and 66% of the angels is able to live up to Gods expectations, follow His rules and obey His commandments, is it really that strange that some people question if the expectations are reasonable or good or if it's really made up? If an intelligent designer designs a system and that system starts behaving as it was designed, is that a feature or a bug? If pride made Satan rebel against God, why didn't God make Satan less prideful? From my flawed human perspective, if a third of the angels that God created couldn't follow Gods rules, couldn't He just have created better beings? I understand that it must be bothersome for a all-knowing God to explain His perspective on why it's in His creation's best interest to follow His instructions to the letter, but some part of that responsibility has to lie on the designer. How would it interfere with free will to create beings that understood why they should do as they are told and to not ask questions? And how is it loving to expect beings with free will to do as they are told and not ask questions and then distance yourself from them when they don't do as they are told? Sorry about the long ramble. Take care!

[@julecaesara482]

this is at an impressive level of self reflection

[@lisaboban]

Drew is good at that.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

i think it's dumb. Not so brilliant it's beyond us. To say hey lets be disingenuous is not brilliant.

[@julecaesara482]

@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr which is not at all what he said, so, my point stands

[@julecaesara482]

@@lisaboban agreed! it's just very condensed and in the forefront of this video, so I noticed more than ever

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

@@julecaesara482 I think to convince me to go back, a lot of the bible would have to be shown to not be authentic, like where God commits genocide constantly and commands even the infants be killed too, he looks at Lot who just offered his daughters up to be raped and says hey that's a great guy, he tortures a perfect man (Job) and basically says might makes right because Satan was like hey can I torture him and God is like hmmmm okay sure, where a man after God's own heart fantasizes about joyfully smashing babies against rocks (from other nations, from other nations! He's not evil you know!), where God says it's ok to beat your slaves as long as they don't die within a few days, and a long list of other horrific things.

[@disneybunny45]

The Faith section, and general trauma or deadly events, reminded me that I could have died in February 2021. I got in a wreck (driving at night when a little sleepy), the car flipped at least once and landed in a ditch full of muddy water. The driver-side of the windshield was bashed in but I didn't have a single injury. I don't know how the crash wasn't worse, but I didn't once believe it was divine intervention. The closest thought was about how I knew my mom would thank God for it. I was an atheist before the crash, immediately after the crash, and still to this day.

[@carwithshades]

Are there any logical explanations u can think of as to why it didn't end up worse? Genuinely curious how you've reflected on that event given time

[@disneybunny45]

​@carwithshades Probably something about physics? I barely have any information about what happened that night. I just figured the mud in the ditch absorbed enough of the impact. The airbags didn't even go off.

[@nikoappsmuggred7220]

@@disneybunny45 sue the car maker

[@disneybunny45]

@@nikoappsmuggred7220 it was an old hand-me-down car. Funny thing is that I only had it for like a month before I totaled it.

[@nikoappsmuggred7220]

@@disneybunny45 you can still sue the car maker if the airbags failed in a crash

[@rorysimpson8716]

For me, God being demonstrably real and then explaining to me personally that he's sorry for all the bigoted lunatics destroying the planet and social fabric in "his" name and that he's going to have a serious talk with them about what unconditional love means.

[@TheChannelling]

And even if he sincerely apologize, would you really start praying him? If all this pain and suffering is an error by god and he apologized, it would be still like hitler apologyzing. Great for him, I still do not want to pray him and worship him

[@rumpelstilzchen4202]

@@TheChannelling Well, if I knew he existed, then heaven would be real and all earthly matters would be pretty irrelevant. A child dying of cancer is pretty unfair, but if they actually would get that eternity in heaven it would be a lot less so.

[@einienj3281]

Yeah. Really difficult to have faith without trust.

[@MrProy33]

I don't even need the second part. If there is really a creator god who revealed itself undoubtedly, then anything it did is part of its plan and I would have no room or right to even ask. Thst would be a pretty prideful ask, in the face of the absolute creator of all things. Lol

[@LittleBitofHopeToo2518]

For me it is being real, but also not having gods love and caring be conditional. Having someone tell me "Love me or I will torture you for all eternity" is NOT going to get me to follow you. He also needs to apologize for creating us with faults, and then blaming us for those faults.

[@chronochrome7837]

I think at this point, I'm unlikely to ever convert to Christianity specifically on multiple grounds: intellectual rejection of the theology, of course, but also a moral rejection of the notion of faith, and a total lack of emotional committment to Christianity; I've been in the sort of mental state that some would say brings them emotionally towards these beliefs, and that's not where I was drawn, despite family entrenched in the beliefs and strong motivation to try and form that connection.

[@annb9029]

Have you looked into Greek Orthodox churches

[@mikeharrison1868]

I can't imagine the circumstances that would reconvert me to Christianity. On the other hand, I would *LOVE, LOVE, LOVE* to belong to a secular fellowship, with regular meetups, and gatherings where psychological truths were discussed.

[@SAK1855]

Ah there's the rub! Where are they?

[@2020-p2z]

@@SAK1855 Secularism is less uniting than any religion, so secular people are more likely to associate based on shared hobbies or interests rather than the fact that they don't believe in a religion. I don't feel any special affinity for other secular people, and would rather spend my time meeting up with fellow hobbyists, or athletes, etc. I live in a country where the majority of my age peers, and a soon to be majority of the total population are non-religious, so perhaps its not as important to me than a secular person who lives in a country where they are a persecuted minority, like Iran, or the United States.

[@alienwandering]

Look into Unitarian Universalists.

[@catsmom129]

I second looking into UUs, and understanding that each congregation is its own thing, to some extent. Meaning, there’s no obligation to believe in a shared creed. So, it’s a motley crew of individuals, including atheists, pagans, Wiccans, agnostics, new agers, those who believe in an undefined Source or Force, and people with an unconventional take on conventional religion. It’s a matter of finding the mix of individuals who appeal to you most.

[@emmatessier600]

Book club with a specific genre would do. Choir's nice too

[@GodlessCommie]

For me it would take God demonstrating that 1. He exists 2. That he’s genuinely sorry for his followers hating women, LGBTQIA+ folks, other religions, and that hell isn’t real and 3. An explanation for how free will works if it exists along with God like christians believe since I am a determinist who actively holds free will is an illusion.

[@blupandax7902]

If God showed you His existence you would claim your experience of Him was “just a hallucination”. So it still wouldn’t work.

[@1AnimeChannel]

Would work if god showed up to everyone they exist, but it doesn't happen despite being stated by others god can do anything

[@leonkautz8151]

​@@blupandax7902That would only make sense to believe if the vision would only come under the influence of substances or conditions that can cause hallucination. And if that were the case, yes of course they would and should see it as only that.

[@wikipiiimp9420]

@@blupandax7902 true, if it happen to only you, it's still possible that this is not really a supernatural god, but instead some mental condition or other factor but if it happen globally, to everyone which would mean everyone hear the same voice, giving them the same instructions and you would see mass convertions to the "one true religion" then, this would be a solid case, as some kind of global mass psychosis would be quite unlikely, so "something" must have spoken to them (and to you) still would not be absolute proof that the "voice" is god, it could be some kind of mind altering alien technology or something like that but still, there would be a very strong case for this religion, making believing it completely reasonable and rational

[@Justas399]

can you explain how a guy can turn into a girl given that its impossible?

[@ApostateAladdin]

I'll watch this to help me determine what it would take to convert me back to Islam!

[@Optimumprime728]

Man yes sirrrrr two goats meet 🎉

[@swiitmlk]

omg another ex muslim

[@datgoldfish5021]

Lmao I was thinking the same thing💀 but I really can't think of anything that'd get me to believe in islam again. Its a very interesting topic tho, so I'm definitely interested to hear what you might have to say

[@ArendVoss-c1d]

Bro pls convert to Christianity Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life

[@swiitmlk]

@@ArendVoss-c1d nah

[@JTBJacksdeadasschannel]

If Jesus came down into my living room and handed me $20. That’s always my answer, and it’s the truth

[@akmonra]

I'd need at least a few Benjamin Franklins to make me believe. Like, he'd have to bring at least 5 clones of Benjamin Franklin with him.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

@@akmonrathat’s a good one!

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

You'd have to give him back two bucks right away. Gotta pay that tithe you know.

[@alanpennie8013]

Jesus never has money. I would suggest buying a lot of bottles of water so he can convert them into wine.

[@billy413]

"Thou shalt not test the Lord your God" To only be convinced of God's existence through a contradiction of his word is illogical.

[@purpleniumowlbear2952]

I'm genuinely surprised this channel doesn't have more Christian viewers like myself than it does. Videos like this are so well put together, and I feel like we could learn a ton from them. Its just a shame the top comment threads have already turned so antagonistic when the video has only been up for 2 hours. Would that we were all a little more like Drew.

[@Crazy_Diamond_75]

Yep. Raised (but not born) Catholic and while I consider myself a "Catholic agnostic" of sorts, I still identify as Catholic and I still believe in God (I just can never claim to know, hence agnostic). I love Drew's videos. He's one of the few people on KZbin who I've found to talk about religion with any intellectual rigor or consistency. I do get frustrated at the way people talk about religion at large as if it's the root of all evil. Any social construct can be weaponized if it gets large enough to become an institution.

[@BlakeBaggott]

I grew up evangelical, went to Bible college, seminary, became a youth pastor, but during that time I was constantly adapting my beliefs as I read more and more theology. I went from very traditional evangelical theology to a more progressive Christianity, but still became disillusioned with the entire system of faith and the institution of the church. My journey out of that started with a simple thought experiment: “if I found out EVERYTHING about Christianity was wrong, how would I construct my beliefs such as to still live a meaningful and happy life?” I didn’t know where my alignment with Christianity ended and where it began. So this was, what I realize now, simply an honest assessment of my core values outside of religious dogma. As I started to build a sort of “alternative” worldview, I realized more and more that I sort of just preferred thinking that way. I saw Christianity for what it truly was for me: the vehicle through which my struggle for meaning and purpose occurred, the first language that I was taught to interpret the what it meant to be human. But it didn’t have to be the vehicle in which I found my most fulfilling life nor the language that I use to reckon with my human experience most faithfully. All of that to say, I resonated with this video and the question it asks. I’m not part of a church and i don’t affirm any christian dogma, but I think there’s still a part of me that will always be Christian. It was not only the historic faith of my family and the majority religion of country/state I was born in, but I got to where I am now specifically by struggling with Christian teaching (not that of any other religion). For me to not identify as Christian in some way seems like it’s denying my story, and stripping me of the power to effect change within Christianity. (Btw this is all just my experience and don’t intend to make it normative!) So then, I may or may not find a community that is open to the type of Christian I may be, but I don’t think my joining that community would necessarily be a (re)conversion.

[@saudade7842]

I'm in a similar boat. I was raised christian, but several years ago I sorta questioned everything, and found that I just couldn't genuinely believe in any of what I used to. I still lack that belief, but in a way I feel more christian than before. I've developed an interest in the religion, I've read decent bits of the bible and came up with my own interpretations of what was written, I've gone to a couple different churches, I've celebrated the holidays, and I've occasionally even prayed despite not believing that there was anyone listening Oddly enough, the stories and scriptures have gotten more important to me now that I see them as largely fiction and mythology than when I saw them as fact. I don't believe in a god, nor do I believe that Jesus was supernatural, but I've sorta created my own idea/concept of them both in my head. I guess I could be called a secular christian, but there's not really much of a community for that out there. Sometimes it just feels like I'm too much of an atheist to fit in with christian communities (even in the accepting ones I'm sorta an odd one out), yet too christian to fully fit in with a lot of the atheist communities

[@isosoriharrison9556]

The simple answer to this question is because you didn’t believe in it from the first place. 🤷🏻‍♂️ nothing wrong with saying that.

[@BlakeBaggott]

@@isosoriharrison9556 that’s totally why I went to Bible college, seminary, and became a pastor 😂 because I was just pretending. But on a real note, it seems absolutely unhinged to tell a stranger what they did or did not believe. Especially just based off of a KZbin comment. I know you have to tell yourself that because your worldview doesn’t allow for someone to genuinely believe and then no longer believe… but man. Really wild to see.

[@isosoriharrison9556]

@@BlakeBaggott I know a good amount of people who do not go to church for the right reasons. I was an atheist and one those Christian’s, to me you either believe it or you do not believe it. The Bible since you have been to seminary says that many who fall away do so because they did not believe from the start or had a false belief in God. I believe God saves people but only by whom God saves. Not by our decision to say we are Christians but by genuine change in the heart. These are very foundational beliefs of God. Many churches do not teach from genuine hearts and you find many hypocrites in the church who think they are Christians but really they more or less identify themselves rather than being a true believer in Christ. I couldn’t care less what people think at church because I am only accountable to God. Not expectations people have about my life.

[@isosoriharrison9556]

@@BlakeBaggott I totally get where you’re coming from but this is just something the Bible teaches. People will respond to the gospel differently in the gospel isn’t always gonna have information in it that we find soothing. The fact of the matter is, there’s many Christians who are in church right now that do not approach the church the way that God has designed to be. Are super manipulative and they abuse their power in a lot of ways and I’ve seen this abuse and what Drew is talking about when it comes to manipulation.

[@vvvvia]

Honestly, I don’t think I ever could become a Christian again. Deconstruction was a large part of growing up for me, to the point where that experience is a part of my identity. If I were to become a Christian I would have to become a whole other person, and I kind of like who I am.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

Well luckily for you, Christianity requires you to die to yourself and your identity and assimilate into the collective. So it all works out!

[@jelleskates5003]

But if it were proven true wouldn't it be worth it to change your lifestyle and character for it? Isn't it worse to have your life built upon a lie, even if it's a fun life?

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

@@jelleskates5003 For sure! I don't want my life built on a lie. That's why I had to give up Christianity even though I had Christian friends and a nice community. And I did think it was true and did die to myself and try to change my lifestyle. But it wasn't actually proven true. It's all likelihoods. Now I think it's more likely that it's not true. So that's what I go with. The truth. Your "truth" God can torture me for all eternity for that because that makes sense.

[@mareepthesheep4567]

Back in my day, this and that would send you to hell. Nowadays they tell you simply not believing is eternal damnation. I’m not incentivized to become christian through fear tactics.

[@someoneonyoutube8622]

As someone majoring in philosophy I would actually say what you’re doing here is exactly what philosophy is supposed to do. Find new ways to look at old problems to find and sort out as many relevant answers as possible. The sciences all rely on methods which originated from philosophy and are open to philosophical criticisms yet at the same time the sciences are vital in progressing philosophical understanding and questioning. Always seek a different way to understand things broader and deeper. Excellent video!!!

[@DarrylBallegeer]

The thought that anything could actually convince me scares me like nothing else. What I really don't understand is the desire for any sort of conscious afterlife. When I received a stage IV cancer diagnosis and had to really come to terms with facing death, I concluded that my single greatest hope is that death brings the sweet release of oblivion. The thought of an eternity remembering this life, this pain, this hell my loved ones are experiencing as they watch me slowly fade is utterly terrifying to me. I truly hope that there is nothing after death.

[@scribblescrabble3185]

"What I really don't understand is the desire for any sort of conscious afterlife. " I second that. And I feel everything you wrote after that.

[@dimensionninja4929]

if there's nothing after death, then there's no point to living. There if simply no purpose to what we do, and why we breathe. Nothing after death results to the pointlessness of our feelings and the pointlessness of our movements and why we fight and why we do what we do. They're why we worry, why we think and why we take action. I can't wait, because I know where I'm going for I've seen testimonies of tons of near death experiences and the evidence for it. It's simply amazing, knowing where my family is going.

[@scribblescrabble3185]

@@dimensionninja4929 " I can't wait" please wait it out, don't kill yourself just because you think this world is pointless. But this comment of yours is why I dislike religions and their cults. It poisons the thoughts and makes people entirely dependent on them.

[@justinrandall9550]

@@dimensionninja4929 personally I believe we don’t have a purpose here but rather it is our job to find our purpose. I don’t believe in an afterlife but that doesn’t make what I do while I’m here meaningless. It actually makes my actions all the more important. I won’t see the result of my actions but they do still matter to those I love and care about. So I need to make sure I’m doing my part to make the world better for them and those they will go on to care for too. I don’t need an afterlife to find joy or as a reason to do good. I do good things purely because it’s right and I want to teach my kids what is right as well. Idk if any of this makes sense but your comment made me sad because I think there is always a reason to live and do what you can to make the world a better place. I like the idea of an afterlife but I just don’t think there is any compelling evidence to suggest there is one. Anyway thanks for reading I suppose.

[@Darticus42]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@dimensionninja4929There is a point. It's to make the still-conscious lives of people around you, here and now, better. Put differently: just because a good book has its end, does that make the book not worth reading? Of course not! If anything, acknowledging there IS an end and that our time in this life is limited has really taught me to appreciate the little things, truly cherishing the moments I have with others and making their lives better where I can, how I can. The point is finding our actions, *ourselves*, encoded in or impressed on by others.

[@psicologiajoseh]

The stress of being skeptical in my societal and material conditions literally makes me hate my inclination towards science, human rights, pluralism, and empathy. In my context, I receive constant reminders of how much much (muuuuch!) better life is for people without these inclinations. If you are a skeptic in a country where you can be that without experiencing economic, psychological, or social harm, please be grateful.

[@peterimade003]

Which country is that? Same with mine tho

[@denisbaudouin5979]

I don't want to be grateful that some people have it worse than me, the situation is just bad. But I will be grateful to people who make it possibles for some places to be better, and who are trying to improve the situation.

[@OrderofAnima]

I feel you'll appreciate this: Needing to visit food pantries left me wanting to return the favor, and I began volunteering regularly. On my way one day, the thought entered my mind that I was on my way to church. Not that it was housed in a church, but that serving fellows in my community in lessening their basic struggles. 💜 Only about 1/3rd of the regular volunteers are outspokenly Christian. Yet, the acceptance is solely based on the work and care given.🙏

[@ecpracticesquad4674]

Just give me one of those super convincing personal experiences that believers talk about so much about.

[@sassylittleprophet]

I had a couple of those personal experiences that were super convincing to me at the time, yet I no longer believe anymore anyway, so 🤷

[@g33xzi11a]

They’re never convincing though. It’s just stuff like “I wasn’t careful at work, something almost hit me, that’s how I know god protected me”. They’ll somehow believe in this kind of intervention in their own recklessness and also believe in free will.

[@celestialowl8865]

​@@g33xzi11aFrom their perspective this is a forgone conclusion.

[@nmappraiser9926]

Nope. Personal experience (read: all of religion) is all in your head. Give me one of those observable, testable, repeatable experiences please. Actually, no, give me several of them, in different contexts, with different people around me to verify they really happened.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

I’ve had several of those and it wasn’t enough to keep me in the faith once I took some psychology classes and read Durkheim. The mind can create transcendent experiences on its own, no gods needed.

[@kai.karenthea]

I experienced too much personal religious trauma to ever go back to what I once believed.

[@weedlol]

Drew I've always appreciated your content for calling out the presence of reactionaries in the skeptic community and encouraging more understanding, empathetic perspectives for both Christians and atheists. Keep up the good work!

[@Sayid-al-Furat]

He hasn't encouraged anything. Where is his video talking about the rising terrorist attacks on Christians in the West, Middle East, and North Africa? Or does he only talk about insane Christians ranting about transgenderism? His entire channel is just meant to take jabs at Christians and encourage atheists to be demeaning towards Christians.

[@tysfalsehood]

As someone who became an Atheist/Agnostic during adolescence that’s coming back to Christianity as an adult, this video means a lot to me. I’m glad people like Drew have a nuanced kind of understanding of what religiosity means - that it’s a lot more complicated than FUNDAMENTALIST vs. RICHARD DAWKINS. I find Christianity meaningful, and that’s really the core of it. Thinking critically about my beliefs, theologically, cognitively, or digging into biblical scholarship is not only fun, but I think a necessary challenge that honest, modern, and progressive believers should engage in. It’s hard, but like Dr. Sledge (whom I adore) says, I deeply desire togo to bat against the toxic radicalizing force that Christianity often is today on specifically Christian terms.

[@val6189]

What’s bringing you back to Christianity? How’s it for you this time around?

[@thebrahmnicboy]

I love your sociological outlook on religion, it is a fresh departure from the usual discourse around this topic.

[@fotnite_]

I think for me, it would take convincing me that God is worth trusting. I don't believe, but whether or not I believe that the Christian God exists, I have a hard time believing that he would be honest or good. It's conceivable that a being with overwhelming power relative to humans could just lie about its nature, in fact it seems more likely to me that that would be the case, because then that being would not need to be as powerful as Christians claim God is.

[@christiangreff5764]

Arguably, the Christian God is so powerfull that if they existed, "perfect unlimited mindcontrol" rules apply: The very act of doubting proves their trustworthiness, since if they did not want you to doubt them, you wouldn't (an/or if they want you to be deceived, you're just out of luck; there's literally nothing you can do to even inconveniece, let alone stop them).

[@fotnite_]

@@christiangreff5764 If they were as powerful as Christians claim they were, yes. But part of what I pointed out is that they would not need to be as powerful. The Christian God would be powerful enough that deception is unnecessary, but for a significantly less powerful being that is still much more powerful than humans, deception might become necessary. To most people, they would not be able to tell the difference.

[@christiangreff5764]

@@fotnite_ Fair point. So trustworthiness has to be shown through consistent behavior (weaker versions of God showing they can be considered 'good' from the average human perspective) or a show of power so overwhelming that deception would be unnecessary (God is in fact 'omnipotent').

[@matthewnitz8367]

@@christiangreff5764 I'm not sure that given a being of unlimited power, it actually is the case that doubting proves trustworthiness. I actually agree with Christians that with a being with absolute power and knowledge of both the past, present, and future, it is impossible for us to truly understand the motivations for their actions and what they are trying to achieve. I think on a philosophically broad level we can make statements about how if we ASSUME certain characteristics of God what it would seem possible worlds would look like with such a being as a creator. But I think it is entirely possible to have a being that lies about it's nature, and uses doubts about it's actual nature to further what it wants to have happen. In fact, given perfect knowledge and control of reality, such a being could use specific doubts about whether the level of doubt one experienced demonstrated that doubts one had about doubts expressed by another person about the doubt another person had about the nature of God were actually valid to achieve precisely the outcome such a being wanted. Why does that being desire doubts about it's nature when it is lying specifically to hide parts of it's nature? Unclear, the motivations and final goals of said being are not and cannot be known. That's actually one of my main problems with Christianity, that they insist we have to trust God and that he is indeed by definition a being we can trust absolutely to do what is good and right, and also presents God as a being far beyond our comprehension. If I take this philosophical position seriously, then thinking that I have to do something, even just believe the right set of things, in order to effectively achieve a "good" outcome for myself or others seems clearly ridiculous. Regardless of whether I'm right or not about such a God existing, if such a being does exist I absolutely trust that they will achieve the best possible future for me and all other humans by definition and I should just do my best with the limited knowledge I have. And similarly if that God doesn't exist, I should still just do the best with the knowledge I have to make the world a better place for everyone. Saying that faith means I need to act as if I know such a being exists and that I know some actions that it wants me to take when I clearly do not have sufficient knowledge to do so is entirely unnecessary in the first case, and demonstrably harmful in the second.

[@christiangreff5764]

@@matthewnitz8367 I am arguing purely in the hypothetical that the existence of an 'all-powerfull' entity has been proofen and there I am not taking a Christian "God is good" approach, but instead a much more Lovecraftian one aka "God is so incredibely powerfull that you will do whatever they want no matter what; you might as well take them at their word if they bother to tell you their intentions". It's based in defeatist pragmatism: "In the face of absolute power, resistance is absolutely futile".

[@sciking8756]

I was agnostic and, after searching for months, I start to think theism is more probable than atheism. I find your channel one of the best atheist material around because you're very open minded and not anti-theist or enraged with religion, but you give your perspective in a loving and honest manner. I'll definitely watch that one!

[@featherofajay4667]

Could you possibly expand on the comment that theism is more probable than atheism? I don’t quite understand what you mean by that but would love to know.

[@LegDayLas]

A rare find to see an agnostic that leans toward theism. There is 100% nothing wrong with that belief, and it is not contradictory as many atheists and theists assume. It's rather the opposite, as you are one of the few who recognize what faith truly is, and try to avoid its pitfalls. Sadly, most atheists don't even realize how faith-based their beliefs actually are.

[@i_fish6657]

Check out Alex O Connor He seems to be a very sensible atheist youtuber who actually spends allot of time talking with theologians in some of the calmest debates I have heard

[@SomethingToRead]

They should just keep kids out of it. Allowing children to marry and then fighting for “parents rights” tells me enough about their beliefs.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

What kind of Christians are marrying kids off??

[@TrikruWanheda]

@@Glory_be_to_ChristJust because you don’t pay attention doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

@@TrikruWanhedaso… give me a source…

[@TrikruWanheda]

@@Glory_be_to_Christ I’m not your slave, even though you’d like it if I was.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

@@TrikruWanheda just say you couldn’t find a source and stop with the ad hominem.

[@ashtonpeterson4618]

The most important distinction for me is this. Even if there was Irrefutable evidence that God (or any god) existed, it doesn't mean I would follow them. If the accepted definition of a Christian is "believing in the Christian god," then i would be a Christian if they were proven to exist. But I may not follow them. Just because a god was proven to exist, it doesn't mean that they are moral. I find a ton of what the christian god supposedly did (and plans to do) morally bankrupt and utterly reprehensible. The biggest examples being the supposed worldwide genocidal flood, and the worst of all, Hell. Eternal unending torture is the worst thing i can possibly think of. No chance to learn or reform. No justice. Just infinite punishment for finite crimes.

[@loganmedia1142]

What's interesting is that concept of hell doesn't come from Judaism. Christians invented it as a way to get converts.

[@judahwessel4155]

This is the first comment I've read that actually makes an argument about why Christianity is not true rather than saying Christians were bad, which made it emotionally hard for me to be in community with them or something along those lines. I wish more people would put their feelings aside and rvaluate Christianity by its principles rather than by people who fail to live up to those principles. Your two questions are about the flood and hell. In both cases, we underestimate the severity of the corruption and badness of sin. We think the punishment for sin is too severe because we do not see how bad sin really is since we are not free from it on this earth. In the case of the flood, everyone on the earth (which was not nearly as many people for the record) was not only warned but had many years after that warning to flee safety on Noah's ark. Noah spent decades building the ark, and his presence in the community served as a warning to all that the global flood was coming as judgment for rampant sexual perversion and sin. I will link an Answers in Genesis article for your reference. They are a helpful resource for these kinds of questions. answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/how-long-did-it-take-for-noah-to-build-the-ark/ I will also throw in there that most scholars believe that the Bible tells us in Genesis that fallen angels slept with the daughters of men, producing giants who were literally not fully human and some of whom were born of demons. This is part of the reason why they ALL needed to be wiped out by the flood. I don't see the injustice in wiping out half-demon giants who were iredeemable. As for hell, this may be difficult to accept emotionally but can be reconciled logically. I think we would agree that the time spent commiting a crime or sin does not need to match the time serving a punishment or sentence for that crime. For example, if i go on a killing spree for 10 minutes in a public mall, I am going to jail for mich more than 10 minutes. The severity of the crime itself determines my punishment. This often means the time I would spend in jail or on death row is much higher than the time spent on the crime. Hell is the same way. I imagine you would say that no crime deserves an infinite punishment. When I look at the worst dictators in history responsible for the deaths of millions, I don't think this is unjust. It is clear to me that anyone who has closed himself off from God, who is love, and has rejected any path to repentance has submitted himself to eternal torment as the only just punishment. Is the value of one soul not infinite? I think it is. I would recommend reasing the commentaries of CS Lewis on this matter as well. He says that those who go to hell have locked the door from the inside. They have chosen to resist God and have closed themselves off from repenting and turning back to him, and a just God would bring justice to those who harm infinitely precious souls. For the record, I do not believe that deceased infants or the mentally challenged who cannot illustrate faith, that any of these people go to hell. I believe they are saved by grace, just as I am saved by grace, except for me it is also through faith. God is loving and merciful in such cases. I hope you will see the kindness and goodness of God and seek to learn His true character that is presented to us in Scripture.

[@ashtonpeterson4618]

@judahwessel4155 You justify a genocidal flood by literally dehumanizing people based on assertions written centuries ago, stating that some of the people were giants or demonic. I can't even begin to say how disgusting that is.

[@TheEngineer28]

I love how respectful you are when discussing these issues. Everyone has their own lived experiences, and understanding them helps us understand how the world around us works and how we work as a species.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

To be Christian ≠ to be religious. To be Christian IS a very specific thing. I don't think there's anything that could get me to be a follower of *any* Abrahamic religion. You can have all that communal & beneficial stuff without having religion even be involved, never mind a specific religion.

[@moleedaboi]

Oh

[@SAK1855]

I see it as the opposite. The communal stuff IS the religious part. People say they're okay with personal faith but not "organized religion." The organized bit is the community.

[@virkots]

Unfortunately, the reality is that in a lot of small towns, the church is the only place where you can get "all that communal & beneficial stuff"...

[@NovaSaber]

@@SAK1855 No, "organized religion" means the structure and hierarchy. Which gets more and more corrupt the larger and more centralized it is.

[@NovaSaber]

Church is just the world's most boring club meeting. Religious discussion is just fandom nerd talk, except the nerds think the lore is real. Religious faith healing...is no different from any other type of "alternative medicine", which is to say it's a scam. Creationism is just another conspiracy theory, and heavily overlaps with the worse ones.

[@quantenmoi]

I started to stop believing around age 9, then was fully an atheist by age 12. So, I don't think any of the social factors could influence me.

[@annb9029]

Have you read Summa Theologiae by Thomas Aquinas and looked into Eastern Orthodox Church

[@quantenmoi]

@@annb9029No, but I've read a few things that discuss Aquinas’ arguments like Feser’s Five Proofs. I’m a physicist, so logical arguments like this, with premises that aren’t fully grounded in empirical evidence, hold virtually no sway with me. It’s hard to imagine what would convince me of God’s existence at this point. But a great start would be a fully fleshed out (pardon the pun) “theory of disembodied minds.” This would require a detailed and predictive model for disembodied minds and how they interact with the physical universe, compatibility with established physics, and of course, reproducible evidence for such minds and their physical interactions. If you can supply this kind of theory, it would be truly mind-altering. And it would go a long way towards me believing in a God. Of course, I won’t hold you to posting your thesis here. I understand you’ll be far too busy collecting multiple Nobel Prizes and attending ticker-tape parades in your honor. Now, convincing me of any of the various flavors of Christianity? That’s a whole new mountain of theory and evidence you would need to supply. But I’ll be crossing my fingers against this one because, as described in a good 80% of the Bible, the Christian God is a horrific monster.

[@Petie718]

@@annb9029 “I no longer believe in God” “ OK BUT HAVE YOU LOOKED AT EAST WEST GREEK BAPIST ORTHODOX??? THATS WHERE YOULL FIND THE REAL ANSWERS”

[@alliekat1431]

Yeah same here. I stopped believing around 13. It’s scary how people think that being exposed to the “wrong people” is what causes you to stop believing… No, I just thought about it a lot, because I was scared shitless that I was gonna burn in Hell if I did something wrong. I hope you’re doing well, and I’m glad you are able to believe what you want to.

[@quantenmoi]

@@alliekat1431 I am doing well, thanks! Same to you!

[@greatcaesarsghostwriter3018]

All the way through high school, I thought of myself as Christian. I went into the military after high school, and I encountered other Christians, who told me, more or less, that I had it all wrong.

[@rdizzy1]

Almost all religious individuals subjectively think they themselves are the ones that "have it right".

[@croozerdog]

going to church gives you this magical feeling of being connected, which was described as the feeling of god. i got the same feeling going to a metal festival lmao. it's the feeling of group mentality and being connected

[@lexaray5]

Yessssss going to EDM shows made me realize that I wasn't feeling the holy spirit in those worship sessions, I was just feeling the vibe 💃🏾

[@ianbuick8946]

There is a specific people going to church to get religious experience. Western world put feeling on high pedestal and lose their brain. That's why we see many adult kids throwing tantrum across the highway and college campus. Emotions and feeling are important but don't go base off it. Feeling like Roger Federer doesn't make one plays tennis like one.

[@croozerdog]

@@ianbuick8946 you mean protesters? thats nothing new, just like people complaining and belittling it

[@ianbuick8946]

@@croozerdog Indeed, nothing new under the sun. Do you think people who go to work got block off traffic by so-call "protestor" shouldn't complain?

[@maybebirb]

I seriously appreciate your asking the comment section to be constructive. I'm a Christian myself and have been fighting for a long time to undo the mistakes of other Christians, it's become my main battle in the religious debate field

[@n0etic_f0x]

Your task is Sisyphean, but at least we must imagine you to be happy. You can do a lot but as a gay man I always waiting for someone with a cross around their neck to put a knife in my neck. It’s not something that you can change, it’s not something that can be changed.

[@maybebirb]

@@n0etic_f0x I disagree. For some it can’t be changed, but I’ve changed several atheists or agnostics from hating or fearing Christians before. Although yes, there’s some damage that’s harder to undo; so defending the church’s beliefs rather than its long and winded history is crucial. Pretty much all of the bad stuff had been condemned by the modern Catholic Church anyhow though

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@maybebirb If you think that there are people who can’t be changed you have accepted my point though.

[@maybebirb]

@@n0etic_f0x No, as your argument was that it isn’t something that can be changed. It was a broad statement that encompassed everyone. I’ve said that it’s true for only some people, whereas your point implied it was true of all people

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@maybebirb I mean… how you got that is beyond me. I even said that you can do a lot but as a gay man I am always expecting to be abused but… that’s not most people even if you only count people who are former Christians. If you want to be a good Christian who doesn’t approve of abuse well that is nice and all but it’s not going to count for much once you hear how much a religion wants to put you against the wall. You can only be the exception never the rule, that does a lot to avoid misanthropy but you get nothing for the faith as a whole, they are still screaming for your head on a pike.

[@clemensbock7434]

I hope your doing well with your chronic illness. My mother has multiple sclerosis, so i can empathize with how strongly something like that can affect your life. Lots of love from Germany. ❤ 🇩🇪

[@eelsemaj99]

You suckered me I am a moderate but strong christian from an old protestant tradition, and my denomination is mostly free from much of what seems to push people away from christianity. We don’t talk much about hell or damnation in church, nor do we discuss rules one must live by in the dogmatic way many churches seem to. We have relatively plain worship but in a way with a liturgy that stops much of the bullshit that seems to spring from many evangelical mouths. And we have minimal music in church, and no bands or praise songs, mainly old fashioned hymns. I feel like you’d have been happier growing up in my church than the one that you did grow up in That said, I was provoked by the “less than you think” in the title, and assumed that you’d leave it at “proof” and that’s it. But you make some very thoughtful points, I’m impressed. I don’t have any specific rebuttals to your points, because I think most of them are fair enough, and I agree with all you have to say on intelligent design and suchlike, but I would add that for me you can’t have faith without doubt. Anyone that claims to know what the truth of the unfalsifiable is is engaged in some overconfident fallacy. I agree that from the empirical lens, there is little to no positive proof for God, but I can’t but believe that there is some teleological purpose to our existence, and that is salvation. I have no proof, nor am I searching for any, I just have faith in it. But of course I sometimes doubt. It is refreshing to see that you seem not to have a closed mind on the subject either, although you come to another conclusion. Regarding what you said about proof of salvation, this is the one point where I think I strongly disagree with you. I don’t believe in predestination or that we can ever know in our lifetimes that we are saved (doubt again), so it would be foolish to try to look for probable signs of it. I believe that Christ was God incarnate and he died for our salvation. I don’t ask any non believer to believe the same just on my say so. And in the beautiful words of my liturgy, I live in sure and certain hope of the resurrection. That’s all I can be asked to do

[@taproot0619]

I came to an answer about this surprisingly early in my deconversion. A christian would have to do all of these: 1) convince me anything that can be reasonably called "deity" ever exited. 2) convince me that they still exist. 3) convince me that they care about/are invested in the fate if humanity. 4) convince me there is only one. 5) convince me that their interpretation of this single diety is accurate. 6) convince me that it is worth worshipping. If they manage to convince me of all six of those points, then I would have no other logical recourse but to be a Christian again. But that's mostly theology/philosophy talk, and this video covers a very different angle than that. And arguably, a much less discussed angle that is very much worth exploring.

[@Quackers8188]

1. The creation of so everything in the universe is so complex and perfectly tuned that if the wieght of and electron(something normally negligible) was so slightly different then nothing would exist. Another much more basic point is that all life comes from pre existing life, so there logically would not be a first life unless it was created. Also the fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed makes it weird as to why there is even any matter in the first place. These all lead to the fact that there is an all knowing eternal God who perfectly created the universe in his image. 2. It doesn't make sense that God would be able to die or cease to exist as God is eternal. 3. Everybody is created in the image of God and everybody and everything was created for us. Not to mention that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Most people would not die for somebody which they loved yet Jesus died for all of us who have constantly hated him. 4. For me at least it does not make sense for their to be multiple Gods. It does not make sense for their to be multiple deities which are all powerful and all knowing as it would not be possible for two all powerful beings to exist. 5. The New Testament is the best preserved historical text in all of ancient history. There are thousands of manuscripts which all say basically the same thing(The biggest difference was generally typos). All of the manuscripts I am talking about were written within the first few hundred years after Jesus died with many of them being written only a few decades after Jesus died. Not to mention that a lot of the ancient Jews would also memorise many of the books of the Old testament. Another argument is the fact that so many eyewitnesses testified until the died(often by some form of harsh execution becuase of there beliefs) about how Jesus had come and he was God. Many people have died for lies, but almost knowbody has died for what they know true to be a lie, while gaining little to no benefit for doing so. 6. All of us are terrible. There has been no person since Jesus who has been sinless. Since all of us have sinned, God is fully just in sending us straight into hell. Yet he sent his Son Jesus to die for our sins so that they may be forgiven and believing in his death and resurrection is the only way to get into heaven. I should also mention that the Kingdom of God will come down to earth one day and the day of judgement will come. That day may come whenever and I would rather be on the side of God then on the side of evil. I hope that you read this so that you may repent and believe in God. If you do wish to become Christian again then I would urge you to go to a Catholic Church as a lot of Protestant Churches do not hold true to what the Lord desires. God bless you and I hope that you can walk in the light of God from now on.

[@taproot0619]

@Quackers8188 1) sure, there are things that we don't know about science. Why there was an appearant imbalance of matter-antimatter pairs at the start of the universe is definitely one of those things. But this leads to 2 problems. The first is that if science answers that question naturalistically, then you suddenly have one less reason to believe in god. The second being that even if the universe was created by a deity, we have no reason to believe that they are all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect, or eternal. For all we know, our universe was the cosmic equivalent of someone's college project that got forgotten about in an attic somewhere and the being that created us has long ceased to exist. 2) again, you need to convince me that they are eternal because there is nothing inherent to deity that says they must be. that is a part of your theology that you must substantiate. 3) sure. everything was created for us. that's why we live on such a perfect planet built just for us! One where we can drink a whopping 1.2% of the water. And. Being land creatures, it makes total sense for us to be on a planet whose surface is 70% water, and thanks to climate change that percentage is only going to increase. And only half of that land is even habitable. But yeah, despite that, I know that they care because they, a supposedly eternal deity, gave up a single weekend of their supposed immortal life to put on a dramatic display in a desert town two millennia ago. 4)You're right. it doesn't make sense for there to be multiple omnipotent deities. But you haven't substantiated to me that such a diety exists. 5)I don't see how the preservation of a book means anything about how accurate your concept of a deity is to reality. Especially since Christians have been fighting over the correct interpretation of God for as long as there have been Christians. How can you convince a non-christian that your interpretation of god is correct when you can't even convince other Christians? (and given your dig at protestant theology at the end of your comment, I doubt that issues is going away any time soon.) 6) It is utterly unethical and despicable to give an infinite punishment for a finite crime. no entity, deitic or otherwise, would be justified in such an action. much one as savage and unscrupulous as the one described in the Old Testiment.

[@Quackers8188]

1. I agree that the creation argument of everything how everything being perfect proves God isn’t the best argument it is just one which I like lol. Another argument which I think is quite good is the fact that everything must have a first cause . 2. The concept that there is an infinity with and infinity answer to everything means that the creator must be all knowing 3. Everything was built for us and it is not Gods fault that humans are wasting resources and causing damage to our earth. Also Jesus loved for around 33 years before he died and rose again 4. Only a perfect deity would be able to create the universe and some of the things I have mentioned previously 5. If somebody had the best kept, most preserved, with hundreds of eye witness accounts book claiming something in ancient history then every single person would believe that. Only because Satan works to trick people away from Christianity does everybody not believe. 6. If you choose to live separate from God then God will choose to live separately form you. Hell is just separation from God and the people who chose to separate themselves from God will live their. Also I do not believe that Protestant theology is very wrong, it is simple that there is a much higher percentage of Protestant Churches which do not properly believe in the faith then other denominations. I am a Catholic and it is the Church founded by the apostles so I will always encourage people to go to a Catholic Church. If you know any Protestant churches which believe in at least everything which the bible says then it is also productive to go there. God bless you and may you repent and walk in the light of God.

[@scribblescrabble3185]

@@Quackers8188 1) "The creation of so everything in the universe is so complex and perfectly tuned" not really complex. And perfectly tuned? Naaa, only a few of the constants would need to be as they are for the universe to be like it is now. And since we do not know what range these constants can take it is just a guessing game. Or in other words, show me that these constants can take other values. Also, finely tuned is not an argument for an omnipotent gods existence, but against. After all, living in a universe were a god would be needed to keep things together would be a lot more convincing towards said gods existence. Instead we have a universe that works perfectly without one. "Another much more basic point is that all life comes from pre existing life, so there logically would not be a first life unless it was created." So, god needs a creator. If you say now "nuh-uh" that would be called special pleading, and is a logical fallacy. That means, it is not as logical as you claimed it to be. "Also the fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed" it gets created and destroyed all the time. Why do you think the sun shines. There is energy conservation, yes, but the ex-nihilo thing is a solely religious myth, not something out of physics. 2. "It doesn't make sense that God would be able to die or cease to exist as God is eternal." something that would need to be demonstrated. 3. "Everybody is created in the image of God ...." so, god is an ape? "...and everybody and everything was created for us." and christians say I am the arrogant one. "Not to mention that Jesus died on the cross for our sins." Oh, the Lord sacrificed his sons/his weekend for us, so that he doesn't need to throw some of us into a lake of fire, for a sin we never committed ... You ever heard of Prometheus, what he gave us and what he sacrificed? 4. would need demonstration. You just gave feelings. 5. "The New Testament is the best preserved historical text in all of ancient history." And yet, it is not factual, nor actual history, very little of that book is. "Not to mention that a lot of the ancient Jews would also memorise many of the books of the Old testament." We can compare that with the fragments of the "dead sea scrolls", and it doesn't match up that good. Though apologists like to claim diffrently. "Another argument is the fact that so many eyewitnesses testified" So? There are eyewitnesses that atest to seeing Mohammed splitting the moon in half thanks to the power of god. 🤷 6. "All of us are terrible. There has been no person since Jesus who has been sinless. Since all of us have sinned, God is fully just in sending us straight into hell." And this is why I despise your type of christianity. It is so arrogant, narcissistic and at the same time self-deprecating. "That day may come whenever and I would rather be on the side of God then on the side of evil." If gods ever descend on our world, I either go my way or with Prometheus. If you follow the god as he is descibed in the bible, I assure you, you are not with the good guys.

[@taproot0619]

@Quackers8188 1) a first cause argument still doesn't get you near deity. At best, it gets you to incredibly powerful primordial force. But nothing with intention, reason, or control that I would consider necessary for "deity". 2) that is a total non sequitor, that isn't even important to the point. since the point is the idea they still exist. not their omniscience. 3) still need to substantiate how "it was all made for us" instead of simply rejecting my argument and re-asserting your own. also, I' not talking about Jesus' entire life. Just the 3 days he died. Christianity makes that sound like it was some huge sacrifice, when it was an eternal deity giving up literally a weekend. it's not like a human dying for something where we have finite time and this is how we chose to end it, no. Jesus is literally God in the Christian theology. he is eternal. giving up a single weekend means literally nothing when your life is infinite already. 4) How so? implied fine tuning argument? I again say "cosmic college project". 5) we don't have hundreds of eye witnesses. we have a few, anonymously written books saying there were hundreds of eye witnesses. just because those books were preserved and copied a lot doesn't increase their truth value. 6) The book of Matthew notes 6 instances where Jesus uses the phrase "where there will be crying an gnashing of teeth" in reference to what Christianity now calls hell. and in more one of those, he describes it as either a fire or furnace. So hell is not simply absence of God. If God is omnipresent, there can't even be such a thing. What it is, is eternal torture and torment. One where, if it exists, would preclude the diety responsible for it from being worthy of worship. And this is a sentiment that even some Christians hold. Universalists who think everyone will go to heaven (or some temporary pergatory-esque place before accending to heaven) and that no human spirit will ever go to hell.

[@no332]

For what it's worth, I think you're doing great work tempering the occasional reactionary tendencies of the old skeptic community. It's nice to know not all of us drifted into some weird reactionary ideas when the initial wave of new atheism fizzled out. Feels like half of the old gang got distracted fighting "wokeness" somewhere along the way.

[@The-Doubters-Diary]

There are far more far leftist atheists than those fighting "woke" ideas. And even if they do, atheism has no tenants.

[@hypotheticalaxolotl]

I have no earthly (ha!) clue what it would take to convert me to Christianity (or, well, anything - but chiefly Christianity). But I know who does know that, and he hasn't deigned to let me in on the secret. So either he can't do whatever it is that would convince me, doesn't care about convincing me, or refuses to convince me (despite the common purported threat to me by not doing so.) Or he doesn't exist to do so. That silence kinda seals the deal for me, tbh.

[@SparklyCoconut-le3fu]

I respect your honesty. I’m also an atheist and I sometimes wonder if my lack of faith would sustain through some kind of terminal illness so I get where you’re coming from

[@sciking8756]

I would say even if God does not exist it's better to believe in him if it makes you feel better on a situation like a terminal illness.

[@SparklyCoconut-le3fu]

@@sciking8756 nah

[@ccreel64]

Lack of faith in a god or religion didn’t hinder me while undergoing cancer treatment. It was the love of my family and husband along with the kindness of strangers that sustained me.

[@francesconicoletti2547]

I didn’t have a terminal illness but a did have heart surgery with a small but defined chance of death. At no point in my contemplation of the surgery did god or wishing for eternal life enter my mind.

[@Binarynova]

An interesting aspect of your set of possible conditions for converting back to Christianity, is that those same conditions could convince you to adopt any religion, given that those same conditions were met. I was surprised that you didn't really mention that at the end. Personally, I just don't think there's much that would convince to me adopt any religious label at this point. Religiosity, particularly here in the US, is too tightly bound to discrimination and pseudoscience. Even if I found a small group that identified as a religion, and that small group was socially progressive and scientifically minded, the label itself would hold too much baggage for me. A few years ago I got involved with local community theater. Even here in rural America, this group is open to anyone who wants to be involved and is comprised of various religious ideas, upbringing, gender identity, and sexual preferences. I have found a more solid sense of community and love in my theater family than I ever felt in religious groups.

[@annaairahala9462]

One response to this that has always stuck out to me is from Bill Nye to Ken Ham during that popular debate. I first saw that as a young earth creationist, and at first I thought it was funny but it stuck with me. His response was basically one piece of solid evidence would be enough. That has become my answer as well

[@FirstnameLastname-qz9fr]

I'm pretty convinced that Ken Ham has made more atheists than Bill Nye and that Bill Nye has made more Christians than Ken Ham. I remember watching that debate and I could barely make it through, they're both so anti-intellectual they made me want to be anything that wasn't what they were lol

[@zantanzuken]

honestly, i know plenty of people who have converted to christianity but who do so not in a belief of god but rather for the community it brings... there are plenty of places that are more good than bad and help people over hurting them, i've even experienced my local churches giving to those in need regardless of their beliefs, which makes me more inclined to want to interact with those people, and i have to some extent. ... however, i personally will never believe in god... and there have been times when i've wanted to, where i was so low in my life that i just wanted someone to 'take all my worries away' and 'make everything better' as christian faith often proclaims... and yet, even though i did give it all up in an attempt to find inner peace.... my rational mind couldnt forget that i still had bills to pay, or that i was out of food that week... i never 'felt' anything while sitting in church listening to a pastor, i read the bible from end to end and never even considered it anything more than fiction written by bored people in the far distant past.

[@ExplodingDarth]

I really enjoy the structure and the thought that was put into this essay, it was nuanced and broke apart your answer in very straightforward yet insightful chunks. I also really enjoy the perspective of thinking of religion as a technology rather than my current way of viewing it as a virus - it reframes the techniques that propagate and are found within religion as something we can use and learn from (or things that can be misused), and is just generally a more empathetic and useful way of thinking of it. Fantastic video.

[@BillGarrett]

Based on this video, I think it's fair to present a modified version of what you said at the start of the video. Not just "God knows what would convince me" or "I'd need to see proof of god". Instead: "To be a Christian, I would need the Christian community to meet standards of evidence and behavior". In other words, even if we're not talking about whether a God physically exists, do the people who worship that God live up to the Biblical principles of love and kindness to everyone? When confronted with evidence that challenges their behavior, will they change their behavior - for example, how to treat LGBTQ+ people?

[@einienj3281]

Yup. That community needs to change. I just can't go back to what it is now.

[@christiangreff5764]

Why these biblical principles in particular? I mean, yes, that would be nice for the rest of us but the bible also contains a lot of very very unkind standards that could equally be chosen as the target we'd have to measure against ...

[@BillGarrett]

@@christiangreff5764 There's lots of possible answers, but the one I'd give to a Christian asking me this is that it's described as the most important commandment in the most accepted text of Christianity itself. Mark 12:30-31 says to love god, and love your neighbor as yourself. If I'm going to hold a group to a standard, I don't mind choosing the standard their guiding text explicitly spells out.

[@christiangreff5764]

@@BillGarrett I mean, it sounds reasonable from the outside; this is, as you accurately state, their most prominently marketed teaching, at least externally and would filter out at least some of the more directly nauseating BS neither of us would have to be a part in (sorry, somehow my brain didn't manage to keep the jump from 'truth value' to 'desireableness as a community to join value' of the first half of your comment for the second half on first reading; applying a subjective standard around agreeableness does makes much more sense now that it managed to do so). Though that standard alone might be insufficient: If we leave the 'taking things on faith' aspect alone, even very well intentioned people can become a real danger to others through missinformation (a lot of anti-vaxxers are probably geniunely concerned for others, otherwise why would they advocate for others to also not vaccinate? Informed but selfish individuals would rely on herd immunity and advocate FOR vaccines, missinformed egoists wouldn't care to warn others, would they? Reopens the doors for quite some evils we already believed beaten back in parts of the world, but the intentions in trying to 'spread warnings about vaccines' seem to be genuinely compassionate). Not that one is safe from missinformation outside of 'taking things on faith', but doing so certainly doesn't help one's chances ...

[@BillGarrett]

@@christiangreff5764 You bring up a great point. What does it mean to “love your neighbor”? To me, part of loving your neighbor means caring for them, caring means listening to them tell you what’s wrong, and hence (for example) only another person can tell me who they are - I can’t enforce my notions of identity on someone else. But to a certain Christian, “loving” might mean “telling them the things I have faith in”, e.g. “you’re going to hell for your sexuality” which I think is awful to tell anyone. So while measuring Christianity by how they love people is important, it’s not enough, because we need to understand what that means.

[@herkles5416]

The big issue for me is the exclusive nature of Christianity. Since to accept Christianity means also denying my own tradition and path that I follow(Hellenism, ie greek polytheism). I could accept that Jesus rose from the dead, that he is a god, that he did all the miracles, and so on. None of that goes against my own tradition and path. But Christianity also demands that I not just accept all that but deny that the gods I have recporcity don't exist, that my tradition has no merit or comfort, that I can't be both, and that I have to focus just on Jesus and his tradition, and also that this particular interpertation of Christianity is the right tradition; as I won't forget the time I ran into a street missionary telling me Catholicism is not christian but paganism. And that I just don't care about. I am happy studying and learning more about my tradition.

[@н.джед.т]

I mean... Okay. So if a Christian, say one named Michael Heiser, gave a whole bunch of evidence that the early Hebrew Bible had a concept called the Divine Council and that incorporated national deities into that concept, and that moreover the New Testament authors accepted that worldview (as shown by statements with an Enochic worldview in Paul, for example), then you'd be good? 'Cause he's pretty explicit about that view as more reflective of the worldview of the Biblical authors. Tim Mackie & the Bible Project is the same on that front... Sooo... Welcome to the faith, then. Or, alternately, you could adopt the Gnostic/Hellenistic worldview as in the Books of Jeu... Esoteric universalism is a thing, too. I will refrain from mentioning anything about the Religious Society of Friends or Unitarians. But the stereotypes aren't all untrue, I'll say. I think that Christianity is a little less monolithic than you might imagine. Just because you haven't met them doesn't mean they aren't there... Explore!

[@Janppa]

So you want to create a god in ur head that ur comfortable with instead of learning and accepting who Jehovah really is. This is breaking the commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Jehovah the creator doesnt change to suddenly respect your idols. Pick one and carry out the consequences. Catholicism is not christian in any way they break pretty much all the commandments of Jehovah and they fit the description of the antichrist. (when people say christian usually they talk about antichristianity anyways)

[@scribblescrabble3185]

@@Janppa "So you want to create a god in ur head that ur comfortable with instead of learning and accepting who Jehovah really is." First of all, the irony is palpable, and probaly still escapes you. Second, it is Jahwe, not the mixup with Adonai. Third, Judaism and thus Christianity is polytheistic by nature, it just became monolatrist in time to the point it being considered monotheist. True, you can still make up whatever you want to believe, but I wonder why you would take that particular god as your patron, edit: sorry... Lord, and not one of the more benevolent ones (I would favour Prometheus, if I would be convinced of the supernatural).

[@Janppa]

@@scribblescrabble3185 The spelling of the name isnt that relevant, Name used to refer to character traits. JHWH since we dont have vowels u might pronounce it as Yeahweh or Jehovah. We dont know the vowels of his name because of the old scribes/jews taking them out of scriptures because they were afraid of using/speaking his name wrong etc. If you go by "thus saith the Lord" or what prophets in the old testament claim to have heard you dont get a polytheistic god. That is the interpretation of ppl nowadays putting way too much value on the word of people. You can see how often Jevovah repeats that he is the only God and there is no other god beside him. I could also favour a god who lets me do whatever i want to do and does whatever i say but it doesnt mean they exist. Jehovah doesnt exist simply because i want him to exist. Even the existance of supernatural doesnt necessarily immediately mean a God exists. But through patterns in my life i have seen the existence of God and how He is alive. When you do what Jehovah says certain things follow up. I was transformed/born from above like Jesus describes. I was filled with fire like u cant even explain to people. Then there is fulfilled prophecy and how even behaviour of people today are predicted. Exact wars/rulers predicted. Before these things happened i didnt have a clue who God is but after them i wanted to learn more about who He is and still keep learning. Just like if u meet a person u won't know them that well unless you live with them and get to know them intimately. If u read about them u might learn character traits and patterns of behaviour but it goes deeper than that.

[@scribblescrabble3185]

@@Janppa nice for you, that you have found an answer that satisfies you. But saying, "there is only my god, because the bible says so" isn't really cutting it for me.

[@richardfoster2895]

If God intervened in healing substance abuse sobriety should be a lot more common. A few people find the inner strength to overcome. Joining a sober community like a church and abandoning relationships with substance abusers may be part of what appears devine.

[@i_fish6657]

well you would expect the church communities to be apart of the intervening process if Gods preferred method of intervention is to work through his followers which to me seems more probable.

[@SofieStraime]

I just want them to leave children out of it until they’re old enough, like 25. It’s disturbing when my kid comes home and asks why the older students tell her they’re going to ask me to marry her at 10 yrs old.

[@michaelcherokee8906]

Hold up, can you clarify that a bit? Playing the Pronoun Game left your message unclear.

[@corsetedwasteland2630]

Uuhmm...what? I am so genuinely confused by this. I live in the bible belt, have a very religious community and family, and also have a 10 yr old daughter..No one (child or adult) has ever said anything about marriage to one of my children. (To be fair, I doubt they'd even approach me, everyone knows I'm not a Christian but my children are.) Why are other children telling your daughter they're going to ask you to marry her? Is it multiple students? How does this relate to Christianity? Sorry but I'm hella confused and have a million questions..

[@jelleskates5003]

I think your kid might be in a cult😅

[@SofieStraime]

@@jelleskates5003 Where did you get that idea when we’re the ones being harassed. I’ve since pulled her out of that school and things are much better…not that you asked. It was a heavily conservative area.

[@corriemcclain7960]

Since you asked for watchers who don't normally comment- When I left the church, I never thought I'd go back. While I still don't call myself a Christian and I can't see that changing, I've started attending a Quaker meeting. We (adults) sit in silence together. The people are kind, non creedal, and open to all. They're supportive and affirming of me as a trans person, studying how colonization effected worship and involved in practical community work. My kids feel safe, are encouraged to ask questions and spend a lot of service enjoying nature and gardening. Since fleeing the south in June we've felt completely alone and ironically, it's a nice group that thinks the love of Jesus can guide us to being better, that has been the first place we've felt safe since moving

[@Venzynt]

Nothing less than god pulling up to my front door lol

[@ThePond135]

The problem with this is that even if God himself pulls up to your front door, there is no way to demonstrate that this being who showed up is in fact God. You're still stuck.

[@blupandax7902]

If God showed up at your door you would say the whole event was “just a hallucination, it didn’t really happen”.

[@lars7747]

@@ThePond135 how about he do something then. instead of giving people cancer you know

[@Venzynt]

I expect the direct presence of a creator deity would be highly convincing. What reason do you have to argue otherwise?

[@enumaelish9193]

​@@blupandax7902God is omniscient and omnipotent. If he can't figure out how to convince 1 dude....

[@cecile886]

11:42 I personally did the opposite... I have faced various things that started to turn me away from religion but praying to a deity who never answered was what started it and meeting an atheistic friend and talking to them was the final nail in the coffin. Also, science... so yeah. It was interesting.

[@seekerhonest]

THREE MAIN ARGUMENTS AGAINST ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS: 1. Claim to exclusivity: “We are the only truth, everyone else is wrong.” This claim, combined with the fact that there is not a single piece of evidence for supernatural actions or characters in the Bible or the Quran, is a very unreliable mix. The claim that the "only true" God only revealed himself to a small local tribe and that 295,000 years after we humans emerged in evolution doesn't make it any better. 2. Claiming, that the man-made wisdoms and man-made errors in the Bible and in the Quran was inspired or given by a God, is not only wrong, its harmful and dangerous, especially, as those errors treat topics like Astronomy, Biology, Evolution and Homosexuality. This means that reality should adapt to this religion and its errors and not the other way around. 3. The principle of sin and punishment. It is clear that notorious lying, betrayal of a partner, addictions, etc. are harmful in THIS life. But to claim, that after this life you will go to a made-up hell for that is just insane.

[@carterburgess2337]

I really like the way you describe religion as a technology. I feel like my personal takes are similar to yours. I see and appreciate the utility that can be found in Christianity, and I entirely understand why people have strong convictions, but part of that understanding is psychological - I know what it is about this moment that makes you feel close to God - and I personally don't feel the need to replace my existential dread with unsubstantiated belief.

[@Claire-tk4do]

@carterburgess2337 That last bit--"I don't feel the need to replace my existential dread with unsubstantiated belief"--really hit me. I recently became agnostic, and am currently struggling with those existential issues, but that doesn't mean I regret a bit of it. I made an important decision at 13 years old: to not shy away from my doubts, that I would rather know the truth even if it tore apart my most fundamental beliefs about the universe. At the time, my earnest seeking led to satisfactory answers to the questions of the moment, and I remained and grew stronger in my faith. This time around, earnest seeking has led me to no longer have faith in any of it. I am proud of *both* instances. I doubt I'll ever truly believe again, but if I do it will again be an earnest, intellectually honest seeking of truth (I hope). That's more important to me right now than assuaging my existential anxieties with comforting but untrustworthy stories.

[@katoyukimaru]

i love this video! i come from a persecuted ethno-religious group (shias) and that external stress, plus joy of community, make me participate in most of the rituals, despite my atheism. i rarely see atheists online not treat religion with contempt, so, thank you for this! i can't help but sometimes feel defensive about religion - despite having my fair share of issues with it - because some non- or anti-religious individuals make sweeping statements and generalisations. your channel is refreshing because it doesn't treat believers as less-than or complete idiots, or act as if atheism or secularism are the only valid worldviews out there. i'm not acting as an apologist for religion at all, btw. there are many aspects i oppose deeply, think are unjust, hypocritical or simlply impractical. but the state of the discourse makes any empathy toward believers seem like you agree with them.

[@RonnieNichols]

I don't think I could ever become a christian again. Among the various aspects of my faith I deconstructed in the past few years, I began lightly going through parts of the bible that I previously read from the biased perspective of God being good, and thus his actions are good. This lead me to the conclusion that, even if some form of deity exists that matches the one Christians claim to worship, it brings one of two problems. If it is a tri-omni benevolant god, then they are not worshiping the god described in their bible. As much as many try to interpret it, the god of the bible is limited in scope and power, and is most certainly not omni-benevolent. That means believing in, even worshipping, such a god does not necessarily make one a christian. If the god is meant to be the one described in the bible, that deity is a petty, evil tyrant who deserves ridicule, not worship. A god who orders the genocide of others to the degree that his prophet gets worried when the soldiers showed "mercy" by capturing some of their enemies as slaves due to the fear that their god will punish them for not following orders. These slaves would be women and children, mainly boys because the girls were the only ones to be left alive so the men of israel could take the virgins as wives. If that god were real, I would stop being an athiest and become an anti-thiest. I will never count myself among those who justify such atrocity.

[@Kevigen]

Hey that's me at the 17:10 mark!! Thanks so much for that inclusion, I'm a huge fan and I started my own channel trying to emulate your demeanor. I'm honored that you let me make a cameo haha!

[@dan_m7774]

The C.S. Lewis biopic, “The Most Reluctant Convert,” debuted on the big screen on Nov. 3. The film follows C.S. Lewis’ turbulent journey from an adamant atheist to a passionate Christian who became one of the most prominent Christian authors of the century. Even after his passing in 1963, C.S. Lewis is still one of the most illustrious Christian authors in the world. McLean expressed that he hopes that the audience “sees the God that Lewis sees” in “The Most Reluctant Convert.” He said that Lewis’ story shows that views and doubts people have against Christianity all have rebuttals that can open their minds and hearts to the love of Christ Jesus.

[@disneybunny45]

For me to join any religion, I think it would have to show a genuine benefit for me. I'd like to say that I need to know that the religion is true on some aspect of reality, but I have no clue what that could be. It would have to fit into my life, I already struggle with normal daily tasks, I doubt I would consistently do any necessary rituals.

[@brianhurd3355]

I didn't leap from Christian to atheist. I walked from Christian to non-Christian agnostic, slowly, painfully, and with a sense that I was awakening to a grander truth than the one I was taught. When people glibly say, "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist," I shake my head, and I quietly respond, "I don't have enough faith to believe in a God so petty and small as the one in this book." I was deeply moved by the true and powerful story of humanity rising naturally through oceans of time and hardship, and I find the genetic connection of all life on Earth to be far more spiritually impactful than any mythology limited by the imagination of ancient human authority. For me to believe in a cosmic creator that has a personal interest in my life . . . I don't think all of those could ever align. Any creature capable of that would never require my acknowledgement, let alone my adoration, fear, or worship. Could I ever be called a Christian again, even culturally? No. The die is cast. Proverbs 26:11-12 ERV "Like a dog that returns to its vomit, a fool does the same foolish things again and again. People who think they are wise when they are not are worse than fools."

[@scottkidder9046]

I can relate to this, I suppose that the only difference is that I saw the paradox of reality paired with God’s love for us as a fundamental misconception of what God was. I saw humanity grappling with the conceptualization of God starting in the Old Testament where God was Reality, a seemingly petty and arbitrary tyrant (not a bad conception of reality) to the New Testament where God became a loving Father longing to right the sins of the World and of Reality, to make things right again. But like you said, it still didn’t make any sense. So I decided to see God as all that was good by definition. He wasn’t some temperamental being in the sky, He was a symbol, a Way forward, that part of us that inexplicably knows what the right thing to do is, that dreams of a future infinitely better than the reality we live in now, that dreams about what might be. Following that is what it means to be Christian, and forgiving yourself and others when we fail to do that is what following Jesus means. And if we all did that, when we forgave even when it wasn’t fair even in the slightest, when we carried on with our lives with dignity and lived it with abundance even when we had nothing and when we had every reason to want to burn the world down. When all of us could figure out a way to do that, we’d finally be on our way to heaven, heaven being that hypothetical future where everything is okay and everyone flourishes. If we just made that the highest priority, the one guiding principle, the one with more power than anyone or anything here on earth, then maybe we’d have a chance. And it’s our decision. That to me felt infinitely closer to God than the God who did nothing to prevent the relentless tragedy present in our Reality. Does it make me an atheist? I suppose it does technically… but I guess I still consider myself a Christian of sorts.

[@brianhurd3355]

@@scottkidder9046 - I hear you as well. There are still a handful of Christians who I dearly love - the kind that have taken all this baggage and set it aside and made the message of kindness and charity their own. For me the bags are too heavy and not worth moving with - but I understand and respect those who still find a place or feel a fondness for them.

[@RoeWade-wl6cz]

I just want them to keep it away from kids. Too many controlling factors, just let kids be kids and discover themselves by interacting with the world.

[@gemstonejasper17]

I think my answer would boil down mostly to if I could be convinced that being a Christian would benefit both me and others. Currently, I don't see how I personally could gain that benefit. I'm still working through the trauma (my little cousin is graduating next month and her party will be the first time I step into a church since I left Christianity in 2019. I've still got a lot of trauma work to do.)

[@kasroa]

This is one reason why I would say literally nothing would ever convert me to Christianity, or any religion. They would have to become something entirely different, at which point, what have you converted to? Certainly not Christianity.

[@ThatFont]

I just want them to keep it away from kids and let them decide when they’re older.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

That’s what my mom did, and now my faith is founded on the Rock😉

[@ThatFont]

@@Glory_be_to_ChristYeah that makes a lot of sense (not) lmao thank you for proving my point

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

@@ThatFont then keep that same energy with the alphabet soup people.

[@AngelWings1960]

@@Glory_be_to_ChristIf you can’t accept alphabet soup as a digestible, you’re the one with a problem.

[@Glory_be_to_Christ]

@@AngelWings1960 I don’t care if you want alphabet soup as an adult, just keep it away from the kids like yall want to keep God away from them.

[@cindybidwellglaze7698]

Thanks Drew.

[@PinkHairDontCare]

I am not sure, honestly. I disagree with so much of the beliefs of Christianity, that even if there were proof of a Christian god, I still wouldn't have good enough reason to worship said god.

[@jelleskates5003]

So even if it were proven that the Christian God were real and he actually authored all of existence you wouldn't trust that his authority of what is and isn't good is worthy of submitting to?

[@PinkHairDontCare]

@@jelleskates5003 If a god sees someone like me, someone who's generally kind and trying their best, but because I don't worship them this god sends me to hell to suffer, then that isn't a being worth worshiping in the first place.

[@Allie3000-uu6jc]

I appreciate the question you pose here. I would take more time to fully form my thoughts, but I can share one requirement without hesitation. The church or religious circle would need to recognize the deep seated nature of ableism for me to consider calling myself christian again. As someone with a lifelong chronic condition, it is so common to feel inadequate when healing does not appear through prayer and belief. When I started realizing that my condition was here to stay, I tried to fight the dissonance by saying that perhaps I was not meant to be healed and this was my purpose to reach people. But more times than not if I present this idea to someone calling themself christian, they tell me that they don’t believe that is true. If god doesn’t heal me, then I become the embodiment of dissonance for them. Now if someone asks to pray for me, I kindly decline for it to occur with me right then. I instead offer that they can do it on their own later and without me present. This allows for them to pursue an avenue that they believe will help me without further causing detriment to my mental health. I am not unchosen. I am not the jester of god’s court. I am not unworthy. I am accepting of myself. Drew, thank you for the approach you take in these video essays. Your content has been a key component in discovering deconstruction about five weeks ago. I realize I’ve been working toward something akin to agnosticism for quite some time. I plan to start advocating again soon once my health allows for it. If it ever were to occur, it would be great to work in collaboration.

[@WhaleManMan]

Free Tacos on Sunday?

[@nmappraiser9926]

Let me hook you up with my guy, Jesus. He comes around to the soccer fields every weekend, he's awesome.

[@JeniJustJeni]

Outside the box thinking, I like it

[@Guttermaiden]

​@nmappraiser9926 Does he come in his own Accord? 😄 (Not my joke, totally stole it from a meme.)

[@teifan6674]

Honestly sometimes I'm on the verge of doing it and then I wake up and some new christian pure evil stuff has just happened like a new horrific anti abortion bill gets passed and I'm like, fucking hell no

[@TimMartin-zb9lz]

So your great stumbling block to Christianity isn't the problem of evil, or skepticism of miracles, but that a certain group of Christians in a particular country sincerely believe that abortion is the murder of an innocent child and should not be allowed? And then they dare to act on that belief? Seriously?

[@The_Trident_Master]

It’s sad that you think being against abortion is a problem

[@teifan6674]

@@The_Trident_Master did you know that communist atheists don't want you to mix bleach an ammonia? It is because it increases your IQ! Do not listen to them!

[@NerdStuffing]

​@@The_Trident_Masterit's sadder you think it isn't.

[@The_Trident_Master]

@@NerdStuffing murder isn’t a problem?

[@leoissleeping]

2:20 the thing you said about the critical conditions of potentially identifying with christianity culturally struck me so hard as a person with a muslim background. Like I live in Turkey and while it is a democratic country there is a clear muslim majority here. And politicians use islam in the same way that american politicians use christianity. That is why I do not feel even a little bit comfortable even being slightly associated with islam/being muslim while living here. However the cultural practices of islam, and the muslim community have played a huge role in my upbringing and family even if i turned out to be a queer atheist. And these experiences can simply be summed up with a muslim identity while talking with non-muslims & people that dont live in a muslim majority place so i still do resort to using it from time to time for simplicitys sake. it is fascinating that even with much different backgrounds and being all the way across the world from one another, we share similar feelings about our own relations with our own ex-religion.

[@thesuitablecommand]

I just recently learned about Esoterica, at first I thought it mightve been some pseudoscience channel because of the words in the title of the community post I saw, but it was more meant to be a historically accurate description of some outdated ideas. Neat stuff

[@Diviance]

I think what a lot of Christians fail to consider is that even if God came down and literally proved he existed to me... all that would do is convince me that this entity existed. Literally everything else would still need to be proven. His powers, his knowledge, things he did, etc etc etc.

[@japie8466]

Agree, and that also does not necessarily mean that you would love him. There is a difference in knowing that someone exists and loving him.

[@Saberfighterx]

@@japie8466here is something to think about for both of you don’t you guys think that if god really is as powerful as we say he is that his presence WOULD prove it all? Like if he does exist in the capacity that we as Christian’s believe then it’s nowhere near out of the question or even further than that would you actually need to be proven that it’s real if god himself talks to you? Oh well Just some philosophical questions from a Catholics point of view I’m interested to see what you guys think with that being said.

[@japie8466]

@@Saberfighterx what if God is all around, but we fail to recognise him because we have a totally different perception of who God is or how God acts? Do you attribute the love of a mother to her child to nature or to God? Or what about a flower coming up in spring, or the simple fact of the bouncing of a ball? What would prove Gods existence? As a thought experiment, lets say you created a digital world where digital characters had a conscience. How would you prove to the digital characters that a human of flash and bones created this digital world? Would you take the character out of the digital world and into your world? Would they still exist in the digital world or would they cease to exist because you took their digital essence away? Or would you go to the digital world and show yourself? How can you show your a human of flash and bones with bits and bytes? And if you created a digital representation of yourself in the digital world, would that be prove that you are a human of flash and bones? Would they believe you? What would you say to them to make them believe?

[@Saberfighterx]

@@japie8466 so if we are using the digital world as analogy for the difference between our physical world and the spiritual world then we can answer that question by looking at one of the very core parts of Catholic theology, the idea that humans have both a body and a soul angels are purely soul they have no quote on quote “physical form” while animals are the opposite they have only body and no soul meaning they have no spiritual forms. Humans on the other hand we are unique as we have both forms and once we die our soul goes to heaven hell or purgatory. So if we are using this analogy these digital people would “die” in their world but they would be in ours instead taking physical form as for proving that we are real I guess your right in the fact that it technically wouldn’t prove anything was true by gods presence alone heck he came down to earth once and even after witnessing miracles happen some people still didn’t believe it to be true. In the end god gave us free will to think, do and believe what we want even if it isn’t what’s best for us. So it really comes down to are you willing to believe it’s true and personally I think there’s more than enough evidence to believe so. Thank you for your reply and I can elaborate some of that evidence if you so wish. God bless

[@Darticus42]

⁠@@japie8466 TL;DR Agreed. Either there is no way that God can prove themselves to us in anyway that we can understand, or he simply chooses not to out of a recognition of our free will (or some other reason beyond our understanding). In any case, God can never be fully recognized. And if I might add on, from a mathematical logic perspective your thought experiment is most likely what would happen. In the universe (in this case literal) of all possible logical rules, propositions, and proofs that can possibly be expressed, how can something that is necessarily beyond this universe seek to prove about themselves within that context? 1) The proof is complete, but not fully consistent -- In the analogy, you could reveal yourself flesh and blood to the digital characters, but they would be unable to fully comprehend it as they only understand bits and bytes and how they're programmed to interact and become encoded. Much the same with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, if they revealed themselves as they truly are there's no way that we could fully process that... 2) The proof is consistent, but not fully complete -- In the analogy, like you encoding yourself into the bits and bytes of the digital world to prove to digital people you exist, but then no longer appearing human. Much the same, how can Jesus, as God and yet flesh and blood, prove that they are truly divine beyond that world/reality? And so, how would God be able to completely AND consistently prove themselves to us? Even if God is all-powerful and all-knowing to be able to bend the rules of logic and achieve both, how can he make us understand it as we stand confined to our own understanding of logic and the world around us? Maybe if he is all-powerful he could impress the unfalsifiable fact of this upon us anyway, but doing so would violate the free will that many Christian theologies believe God to respect.

[@queenmotherhane4374]

I’m a UU, and personally am a kind of deist/agnostic hybrid. Recently, at a blood drive held at a Congregational church (a liberal Christian denomination) I had a deep conversation with the pastor about Christianity and the benefits of religious community in particular. She and I agreed about much, despite my skepticism about the supernatural. I left thinking about my daughter’s friend who attends Episcopalian services because she loves the community, music, and aesthetic, and also says, “You don’t have to believe in God to go to church.”

[@LionKimbro]

I can't believe in eternal damnation or annihilation coming from a loving God. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[@gaex.]

What would a loving god do with sinners?

[@LionKimbro]

@@gaex. God is always teaching us God’s way.

[@ianbuick8946]

People want to be separated from God on Earth. They will have a place separate from God eternally. Make sense?

[@LionKimbro]

@@ianbuick8946 It makes no sense in either direction. Nobody, knowing God, rejects God. Not knowing God, it is impossible to reject God. But more importantly, it is not God’s will to forget any of his sheep. God is merciful, God is just, God is love. It is not in God’s nature or will for any of his children to be eternally lost. 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Corinthians 15:22, Colossians 1:19-20, Romans 5:18, Philippians 2:10-11, 1 John 2:2, Revelation 5:13

[@ianbuick8946]

@@LionKimbro Well, if you believe in universalism then sure, no one go to hell. Speak no further, everyone get a seat in heaven. Hitler and Mao got a seat as well.

[@Nick-qb9zv]

when I first saw your channel pop up in my feed, I was hesitant to watch it, because of your channel's name. As you have adressed in this video, there are a bunch of ppl calling themselves "sceptics" who share harmful ideas around. After watching this video, I now understand why you chose this label, and I can now apprecciate your decision to choose this online handle.

[@louisng114]

As someone who has never been religious, I don't see the appeal of religion. As for what would convince me if there is a god, I would first need a definition of god that is not self-contradictory on the outset. This pretty much rules out Christianity completely.

[@merkoo7]

How is the Christian god self-contradictory? Genuine question.

[@louisng114]

@@merkoo7 What is your definition for the Christian god?

[@merkoo7]

@@louisng114 Personally I haven't thought about a set definition, that's why I'm curious about the self-contradiction claim. You're the one who came up with the premise that the definition of the Christian god is self-contradictory. I was asking about what self-contradiction you see in "your" definition of the Christian god.

[@louisng114]

​@@merkoo7 The most agreed-upon trait of the Christian god is omnipotent. The obvious problem is the age-old question of "can God make a rock so heavy that He cannot lift?" People tried to get around that, but none of the solution really does. The most common get-around is to say that omnipotence only implies doing anything that is logically possible. The problem I have with that is that "logical possibility" here is inconsistently defined. The Bible states numerous things that God cannot do. Most of those things are not logically impossible. Besides those, if God is non-physical (whatever that even means), then God cannot walk or breathe. Aside from being logically possible things that God cannot do, they also highlight the strangeness of Genesis. Christians often attempt to circumvent that by referencing the nature of God. However, that opens another can of worm. If omnipotence depends on the nature of the being, then everything is omnipotent. For example, I cannot run faster than Usain Bolt, but that does not make me non-omnipotent because my nature is that of a human being who is not faster than Usain Bolt. The term omnipotent quickly becomes a meaningless tautology.

[@adamray9857]

​@@louisng114 I'm not a Christian but I lean that way and my personal explanation for the "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't move it?" question is yup and he already did. In our understanding we call it free will. Could an all powerful god make you love it, of course, could an all loving god...nope. I haven't seen this anywhere and I've seen a lot of Christian denominations that would disagree

[@alicestrumski8552]

I agree with Drew on most of his points. I also think that it is very difficult to divorce Christianity from its tendency to emotionally manipulate people, (in the states) a toxic political system and jump to conclusions that support its own narrative. I think that the lack of critical thinking and unhealthy social environment is what keeps me away even when I play with the idea of belief, which I do to try to stay out of an echo chamber. A tendency to have a communication of good works tempts me back at time, but not enough (again can be toxic).

[@adamplentl5588]

A traumatic brain injury which impaired my ability to accurately perceive reality or think rationally. Christianity isn't true so I would have to be completely cognitively compromised in order to revert.

[@CommanderShepardsBacon]

Don’t give them any ideas lol

[@lexaray5]

This is my answer, but I don't want it to seem like I'm dissing Christians. I'm not saying that Christians are brain damaged, I'm just saying *I* would need to be brain damaged in order to throw out the entire logic system I've been using and refining since the time I could think. I've already been so low that I needed to push the reset button on life. That's not enough to bring me back to religion. The only thing that seems like it would work is literal damage to my cognitive faculties.

[@RedBlueGreen102]

I think there is a important note to add to your argument about trama and hardship. I and many people I know question faith because of trama and hardship. There is a counter reaction, when you are raised with religious ideas, to extream hardship. It plants a seed of doubt or even spite.

[@Fezz9999]

Simple proof would be to bring back a dead relative, specifically one I saw the body of. Appear before me and clean my house. Give me the power to turn a stick into a snake. Carve my name into the moon visible from earth. Light a bush on fire and talk to me. Send me an angel. And none of that "can't see angels" kind of thing, people used to see angels all the time. Oh, produce an eclipse out of date and time from the regular calculated schedule and not caused by a material item. There's a lot of things I would take as proof.

[@mariosaucedo6234]

Just wanna mention that out of all the skeptic atheist online that I've come across you're probably the one I respect and appreciate the most because you make your content in a more respectful tone and don't encourage or do toxic behavior. As a result, you seem a bit more intellect to me personally. I'm not saying that the others aren't, it's just that, some of the other videos I've seen from other atheist really make me feel like there's some that aren't even worth watching. This is coming from a person who is currently just in the process of learning. I don't think I'm neither an atheist nor necessarily a Christian at this point. At the moment, I am probably still believing in God a bit, but like I am still trying to learn some stuff and question things. I'm more of an in between state. Anyway thanks for your videos. Good work.

[@llt8101]

Even if I could be convinced of all of the claims of Christianity I still wouldn't become a Christian. I'm morally opposed to many of the things that the god of Christianity is supposed to have said/ done. If I believed he were real I would love to ask him why he needed to be worshipped, though.

[@hippios]

God doesn’t “need” to be worshiped. We don’t claim that. What we say is that he “ought” to be worshiped.

[@llt8101]

@@hippios I spent all of my upbringing and many more years a Christian. The only school that I ever attended was a Protestant Christian school, where I stood out in class because my family had read the Bible so much more than the rest of the kids' and I knew way more trivia. If you think it isn't a demand then you need to read your Bible better.

[@hippios]

@@llt8101 who cares what Protestantism thinks? They’re heretics with no apostolic succession. I actually feel bad for you that you think that Protestantism is an accurate representation of Christianity, because it isn’t. Research the Orthodox Church, the one Jesus Christ founded.

[@Michael_May]

I was agnostic for decades. Nearly Atheist. Now I’m a Christian. After listening to one of the “Left Behind” books on tape, I wanted to see if I was cut out to be a Christian. Tried reading a Bible and tried to watch a sermon. Both attempts failed, miserably. Two weeks later, I was scared of dying and going to hell. Long story short, after two days of praying…I found a good reason to believe in the resurrection. Romans 10:9 says that if you believe in the resurrection, you will be saved. I was able to test this, give my attempts, two weeks earlier. This time, I loved the Bible and the sermons. Read the Bible 9 times in the 6 years that followed that experience, I had changed. I experienced several things, over the next 21 years that reinforced my belief in Jesus. I really don’t understand what went on in the Old Testament. God wasn’t being very good, from my perspective. Just about all American Christians are dicks. I’m a Democrat and refuse to deal with angry church people. Atheists…including you, Drew…make a lot of sense to this Physics & Math major. But I can’t get past the fact that I’m still a new man, since believing in the resurrection. Don’t expect my experience to do anything for anyone else. But I was fortunate enough to be able to test what happened. Love your channel, Drew! Mike

[@anthonyskrzypczak9437]

Fear of death is such a shit tier reason lol

[@Michael_May]

@@anthonyskrzypczak9437I ain’t denying that.

[@TrikruWanheda]

If there was a god, it wouldn’t want its followers to believe a book that can be misinterpreted.

[@Saberfighterx]

The Catholic Church fixes said problem sure we still believe in the Bible but the difference is that councils of bishops who are some of the most knowledgeable people in the world come together to decide on what it actually means meaning yeah your right god doesn’t want people to solely believe in a book that can be misinterpreted

[@TrikruWanheda]

@@Saberfighterx Why does it matter when you people still use it to push harmful agendas?

[@Saberfighterx]

@@TrikruWanheda what constitutes a “harmful agenda”

[@jtwattsmusic]

As a Christian, I must agree with your perspective on "worship services." I believe you hit the nail on the head with calling it "artificial." I believe music is a great way to worship, but the modern approach to worship services is clearly manipulative and it makes me uncomfortable too.

[@macfoster866]

I've always said that if prayer worked consistently or in any way that was even close to predictable that would help to convince me. But even the concept of prayer is internally nonsensical.

[@The_Average_Ragebait_Borutard]

Based

[@assaf_jerry]

To believe God, proof of him, but I do consider myself a "ethnic jew" and am part of a non discriminatory synagogue, and I literally had the example you gave of explaining the halacha to other jews

[@Wolfboy607]

A-priori, based on title alone, I am compelled to share. There is nothing that would convert me to Christianity. If their "God" Himself came down from on high, and apologized to me personally, and explained in detail the truth of "His" word..... Then I would declare him the ultimate enemy, and proceed to wage holy war against him and his. I wouldn't consider myself an angry atheist, I'm not out there debating christians trying to make them feel bad. As I understand it, many people need the crutch of an imaginary friend, and that's okay. It's not my place to take anything from anyone. However, were their imaginary friend actually not-so-imaginary, then that means all the evils they committed across time would have been truly guided by one real, extant, malevolent being who has been trifling with our affairs for the worse since the start. That's maddening to even consider. Edit 1: Drew starts the video by using the word "Religious" and "Christian" synonymously. I know it's common shorthand in our sphere of "culturally christian" athiests, but we can recognize that it's actually bad, as in not useful, right? There are other religions that are largely synonymous with christianity, like islam, but there are many many more that aren't. You don't need to be a practicing christian, jew, or muslim, to gain the useful benefits of spirituality and community found in religion. That's a red herring. Edit 2: Justin is a well spoken, very intelligent individual, who seems to only ever speak on topics upon which he is a master. He is, of course, correct. Changing religion from the inside is a good reason to remain a part of it. Surely it's the best, and perhaps only, way to enact that change. However, this still fundamentally requires faith. Justin's possession of that faith mystifies me to no end, but for many of us, our dispossession of that faith precludes us from this methodology.

[@christal2641]

Yes! A red herring, indeed. Buddhism, generally, does not entail worship of any god. God is irrelevant to the practice. Humanism is agnostic on the subject. Deism affirms that 1. There is a God, who created the Universe, but does NOT suspend the laws of Nature. 2. God expects us to discover those laws, using reason and observation. 3. God expects humans to use their reason and goodwill to be good citizens of the World, to improve human life, and to seek greater wisdom. 4. After death, God will judge us all based on how responsible we were for the improvement of the world.

[@christal2641]

Justin has my respect as a fair witness, and a fine scholar. I could see him teaching at the Divinity School of the University of Chicago.

[@Celsiusing]

I'm so confused. When did Drew say that you need to be a practicing Christian, Jew or Muslim to gain those useful benefits? It seems like he said that you can, but it isn't what he needs at the moment.

[@Wolfboy607]

@@Celsiusing I said he used the world Religious and Christian synonymously in the video, and that was my explanation for why that's not actually helpful or useful. He didn't actually mention those other religions at all, which isn't generally a problem by itself, he's a cultural Christian talking about his own experiences. The problem was that there are lots of religious people who aren't Christians, literally billions. The words just are not interchangeable.

[@Celsiusing]

@@Wolfboy607 Yeah, they're not interchangeable. But the video specified that specifically Christian religious people are being focused on, so it doesn't change much. Ah, I forgot this video and your comment are 2 months old. Sorry. 😂

[@Finn_intheflesh]

I recently deconstructed from Christianity, I’ve been in the process of it for almost three years but this past year has solidified my stance on it. One of the first things I’ve noticed is the loss of community that comes with being an Atheist. Colleges in West Texas do not tend to harbor many like minded people. I’ve had a hard time finding a community, especially when my most of my family is still unaware of my current religious view. Before I left for college and still kept up appearances as a Christian, I had connections and easily got jobs, but now that I don’t attend a church or have that community, I’ve been unable to find work. That’s the biggest thing that’s made me wish I could go back. As well as the emotional security with Christianity, I enjoyed the idea of “it’s God’s will” but I cannot soundly return to that mindset. I could see myself returning to the community and the church in order to have those things, but I don’t think I could ever believe in God naturally again.