Why Bad Mechanics Make Masterpieces

[@fearsomefawkes6724]

I'm not going to say that there's no such thing as a bad mechanic, but I do think most "bad" mechanics are just bad implementation or miss-matched mechanics.

[@mr.t107]

Agreed

[@Sleeper_6875]

absolutely

[@EgoPen]

What about the mechanic of dying in real life if you die in game?

[@moonrabbit2334]

​@@EgoPenIt's great you should try it

[@dmsys6516]

​​@@EgoPenthat is by definition a really good mechanic If implemented well it can boost player engagement and feel It will skyrocket the immersion and increase urgency as well as improve player interactions and strategies Overall it is a mechanic which is fairly easy to implement right but it is hard to make it not frustrating but being frustrating is also one of its charms so i can't say it as a negetive point

[@TheTraveler980]

I will add that a game like Hades is also well-loved due to failure also being progression. There's always a new story bit, character dialogue, and possibly new gameplay mechanics. What succeeding does is show something you would never discover by losing, yet a loss still shows something too.

[@vazazell5967]

If Hades didn't have story or graphics nobody would play that barebones hack and slash. Meanwhile people would still play spelunky or gungeon.

[@TheTraveler980]

@vazazell5967 Barebones?

[@shutup1037]

Guy just hating every popular game. Ignore him​@@TheTraveler980

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

Dark Souls encapsulates this perfectly. If Blightown wasn't the miserable, frustrating experience that it is, then making your way back to Firelink Shrine, wouldn't be the iconic and memorable moment that MAKES Dark Souls what it is. It seems that people think that anything that isn't constantly rewarding the player or is completely enjoyable is just a "bad mechanic", when, in some cases, these are necessary to heighten the elation of the rest of the game.

[@SenkaZver]

Copium.

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

@@SenkaZver great argument child.

[@evilfungas]

@@SenkaZverYou are going to be deported.

[@qgvinh8614]

I get it that the highs wouldn't exist without the lows, but using this logic, we will have to excuse every bad things every game did because it all will contribute to "a satisfying outcome when that previous bad thing is no longer relevant", therefore, it is good. If I had to farm something 100 times for 5 hours for it to drop, yes, when I got it, it would be satisfying, but it could've dropped in the 5th or 10th times and that experience would not change much, this also implies games that are meant to be fun from start to finish, without those frustrating moments, are lesser in comparison, how could it be fun without all the non fun things that don't exist in the game. For every person that feels it is important to have sections like blightown to enhance the sense of accomplishment when you got out of it, there is also an equal amount of person that feel nothing more than "thank god that is over, I would never want to do that again" and find that Blightown is nothing more than a frustrating mess. Whether something is memorable or not, is also highly subjective, I could play a terrible, trash game with my friends, family, and that would be the most memorable, fun time I have with them, but that would not make the game "a masterpiece". We can still appreciate a game while acknowledge the bad things it has, without needing to excuse the fact that it is just simply...."bad".

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

@@qgvinh8614 It all comes down to what the game is trying to achieve, what experience it is trying to give the player. So of course you have to judge this on a game-by-game basis. Obviously if there is a frustratingly difficult experience in a more casual game (that is not as an insult) than it is a bad mechanic. But I used Dark Souls as an example, because, as the developer has stated numerous times, that is the intended experience. Now, the difference between something like Blightown, and a different bad mechanic like say, durability (probably better examples) is that with Blightown, its not simply that the experience is over, but that you got something out of it, and it also enhances the feeling of other aspects of the game. It serves to create the warm home that is Firelink Shrine, hell, it literally makes you praise the sun. Furthermore, Blightown serves as somewhat of exposure therapy (lol), every area after Blightown is much easier because you have been through hell. You can remove flaws that serve no purpose like durability or some runbacks, because they serve no purpose in enhancing the players experience.

[@dominiccasts]

I think the concept would be more meaningfully conveyed as "friction", rather than "bad mechanics", since as you say they aren't necessarily bad or detracting from the experience, but they are stopping the player from just doing whatever they want whenever they want. Granted that isn't as useful for generating interest on KZbin, but I see it as a more productive term for further discussion.

[@matt55242]

Random encounters in dungeons comes from tabletop rpgs where the GM is intentionally attempting to drain the player's resources before getting to the big bad.

[@illusion3065]

i cant believe he pronounced it balatro instead of balatro

[@G1eatShad0w]

This is the start of a new age. Not because the video quality keeps getting better, not because the new year is approaching and not even because Wilds, coming out in about two months, will likely change the MH series for ever. No, this is bigger than all of that. Something that let‘s everyone know about the songs used in the video even without some guy commenting about it. It‘s big… it‘s important… it‘s a piece of text that shows the song that‘s playing! Ok, saying it like that makes it sound a little sarcastic but it’s genuinely a great change. I’ve always found the use of music in these video’s to be outstanding and now anyone can look up the music about any topic for themselves. Someone might be well versed in Elden Ring music but when it comes to MH, not so much. That problem is no more! I guess I’ll have to find some other little detail to gush about.

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

You should try LA MULANA REMAKE, if you want a game that hates you. If the game is too difficult you can use the fanmade 0 spoilers guide, but if you have 5 years of your life free, you can go 100% blind.

[@old_H]

In Monster Hunter World you can sharply increase your chance to get a monster gem from 2% to 13% by doing Investigations with a gold reward. In other words it will take up to 10 hunts to get a gem instead of 50.

[@roar104]

Unless RNG hates you, then you're still killing 50 rathalos for a ruby

[@ilikevideogames4331]

It's also never a 2% chance. It's 3 carves with a 2% chance, a tail cut with a 3% chance, a head break with another 3% chance, a couple shinies you collect mid-quest with a 1% chance each, and to top it off you get multiple 2% rolls in the quest rewards screen. This is all to balance the fact that Monster Hunter quests last 15 minutes on average, these games would be insufferable if they actually had true 2% drop rates.

[@TimHawk.]

75% chance to get a gem within 10 hunts.

[@LazerDisk]

Gameplay is in service of an experience that the developer wants the player to have, so there's an argument to be made that there's no such thing as a bad mechanic. That said, you can probably judge a game's mechanics by how well they contribute to the intended experience and whether there was any way to do it better, i.e. without frustration, time wasting, etc.

[@hyperventalated]

Im glad you included your section about lives systems and roguelikes. For a while now Ive strongly disagreed with the notion that lives as a game system are inherently antiquated, and I think it is our implementation that has to evolve in order to make proper use of it in the modern era. But so often the "its just an arcade mechanic to take your quarters" opinion is regurgitated from some random youtube video someone saw and that's the end of it. I think like all systems it has its place, and I appreciate genres that can show how mechanics like that CAN be fun despite the stigma against them.

[@Ghorda9]

the stigma formed when home consoles where still newish and some games from even the N64/playstation era had life mechanics that didn't make sense. Banjo Kazooie for example you could tell that the lives where an after thought since they reset to the starting value when you boot up a save file.

[@M4Dbrat]

Lives make perfect sense as a secondary, longer-term version of a health bar, so, just like health, they shouldn't be farmable and they should reset at every perma-savepoint

[@Neirdio]

Satisfication comes from overcome difficulty. Concentration gives immersion and obssesion. As the gaming industry and players keep evolving. Game mechanics need to be more challenging and refreshing for stronger stimulation.

[@CacoPalminhas]

We need a Risk of Rain 2 video and how it impacts all these different things. It’s so fun and unique and you need to play it and make a video on it

[@roar104]

Shame it's the worst risk of rain game because of how it does several mechanics like fire damage

[@CacoPalminhas]

@@roar104 … what there no fire damage problem

[@roar104]

@@CacoPalminhas you must not have played at launch. Fire damage near instantly killed you. Still does far too fast though

[@CacoPalminhas]

@@roar104 ohh yea, The fire damage at at launchBut that was just a bug, not a feature. This was a video not about bugs at all. But yeah thanks for reminding me!

[@troycut204]

the Balatro music woke up my gambler brain

[@averagetectonicplateenjoyer]

i never really thought of balatro as a rougelite beyond endless runs (because at a certain ante you basically require certain jokers to progress) because you cant just get a plus 5 mult or whatever permanently

[@BlazingWerewolf72]

These game mechanics give gamers commitment and gamers love to commit or to endure CBT one of those two.

[@mspilot8283]

I’m down for a smt5 video. I never played it but looking for someone to convince me

[@shutup1037]

Just... play it

[@GoliMeadow]

14:55 If you insist. Hand it over, that thing, your SMT V: Vengeance video. For my favorite JRPG Franchise.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

you're confusing grinding with slow progress. grinding is a repetitive task that interrupts your progress, in games like stardew valley farming and gathering are progress. hot take, all the games you mentioned that have low drop rates are good despite that, not because of that. and they would be better without said low drop rates.

[@FireStormUnleashed]

As someone who hated the melding tickets in MH World, that effectively give you any rare drop you want without doing anything, I disagree :)

[@roar104]

MH definitely wouldn't be better with better drop rates

[@shutup1037]

​@@roar104it's better when you learn the monster more, not because drop rate

[@tomeazevedo99]

i had just closed balatro when the video started playing 💀 i thought i'd gone insane

[@ThroughfulGamer95]

While I will say the execution could've used a few tweaks, I'd argue that Waterfowl Dance was intended to make you think and engage with ER's mechanics as well. Ashes of War are a thing, and certain ones like Bloodhound's Step, Quickstep, and Vow of the Indomitable are a great help. And I think the argument of, "Oh, I need to change my build or get better gear. How cheap" doesn't really apply since - one - it's an RPG, and - two - you can literally just quickly switch to a dagger equipped with Bloodhound for the move and then quickly change back to your preferred weapon. There are also just ways without those things as well. Light rolling is super helpful, blocking the first flurry, outspacing it with a running jump, etc. I think it was a move that, beside trying to punish the player for greed, was meant to be an attack to remind the player that rolling is far from their only option. They have positioning, direction, consumables, ashes of war, spells, and so on to deal with what the enemy has in store. By that point, the game must have thrown so many options, so many different bosses and enemies and their accompanying mechanics, that the player doesn't really have the excuse of saying, "but mah rolls" before sitting down with their arms crossed, pouting at the 'unfairness' of it.

[@5chneemensch138]

Exactly. First: Because it's an RPG you _don't_ change your gear. That goes against class fantasy in an RPG. Second: You can learn bosses _intuitively_ in previous Souls games without changing anything. Third: Waterfowl has a very specific way of dodging it that is the opposite of intuitive. Forth: Malenia heals when hitting you. Fifth: Even if you are immortal.

[@Ghorda9]

also, every single build has at least one or two tools available to it that can deal with waterfowl, even if it's just a medium shield and a few levels in endurance.

[@vazazell5967]

You guys really don't know what rpg means. Changing build is AGAINST RPG.

[@Ghorda9]

@@5chneemensch138 there are many different way to deal with waterfowl, most of them a lot more intuitive than circle dodge.

[@victorprati7908]

WFD is made to be survived not dodged I believe. It adds to be facing a legendary swordsman that never known defeat. 👌 I usually eat the first flurry and dodge the second and third.😂

[@hopefulXime]

Alternative title: why does people like mechanics that i find bad.

[@thatdanjamesguy.330]

Ok but let’s be honest, Dragon Quest being so grind heavy IS a bad mechanic. I’d argue it’s not a masterpiece for that very reason. The grind itself isn’t even enjoyable compared to some games (say, Final Fantasy 5 and its job system), you’re mostly just mashing A. I just don’t see the masterpiece here. A game isn’t entitled to universal acclaim just because it has Dragon Quest, or a similar popular series, in its name.

[@pvtpartsYT]

Grinding is fun to me lol. I'm also a 20 year runescape player.

[@arsenixshirogon]

I thought the Romancing SaGa 2 remake that came out back in October did a good job of MP management and the balance of that in that healing was in combat only. Every encounter starts the party at Full HP

[@decoboco222]

I like how for your criticisms of DQIII your suggested changes are "revert the changes made in the Remaster and go back to the original's mechanics"

[@WookieRookie]

The hardest boss of Soulslikes is not Malenia, Blade of Miquella, but Bed of Chaos, I Hate This Thing So Much. It just shows how you can implement good mechanics in a wrong way because Dark Souls is definitely not a platformer, but Bed is definitely a platformer boss

[@gregtechnewhorizons]

This is such an underrated video

[@Ronin11111111]

Hades literally has extra lives tho.

[@gabrielsandor3474]

I'd be down for a video about SMT5. While it's far from my favorite Megaten game, I have to agree that when it comes to combat and party management it's one of, if not the best JRPG I've played so far.

[@gmg9010]

Would you ever do a video on the Octopath Traveler games? If you haven’t already that is.

[@mhswoocer]

I would love to! I actually had one planned earlier this year but it just never panned out. We'll have to see what the future holds but I was a big fan of the first game and I enjoyed what I was able to play of the second. If I have some time in the future and a good enough idea, I'll probably talk about them in a video

[@gmg9010]

@@mhswoocer I personally couldn’t get over like every time I took a step I’d get into a fight in the first one.

[@bennifer94]

Personally hate games designed around grinding, grinding was the reason I dropped Monster Hunter. I HATE grinding, I don't think I've ever experienced it in a way that I've enjoyed, could be because I'm Autistic, but it just feels like my time is being wasted more aggressively than usual. Peace & Love. That said, please do an SMTV video. Game desperately needs more eyes on it. 🙌

[@crazy5948]

Honestly. No game is for everyone. I love the grind of monster hunter, same with Terraria. It feels like I earned the equipment. But I have friends that don't like MH for the grind. And same with Terraria. I don't think it's because you are autistic but just your personal preference

[@moonrabbit2334]

Btw you don't hate grinding in MH, you just couldn't click with your weapon/ combat of MH

[@bennifer94]

@moonrabbit2334 That's just not true, I played through all of World and dropped during Iceborne because I was sick of repeating content for the sake of gear drops. I know why I didn't enjoy the game, please don't tell me otherwise.

[@roar104]

It's not repeating content because it's not the same fight almost ever. You also never see all the content a fight has on offer the first time through in world. It's fine to be wrong

[@bennifer94]

@@roar104 Re-skins of the same monsters with a couple different moves/attributes, after grinding out different versions several times is simply not enjoyable for me. "Your opinion is wrong" said unironically is hilarious and invalidates anything you had to say regardless. Each monster has a wide variety of moves, but hunts aren't just fighting the monster are they? It's gearing up, cooking/eating, tracking, fighting a bit, chasing, and fighting some more to finish. That gets tedious after a while, at least for me personally. You and the other guy are doing great community outreach for MH when you tell me my opinion is incorrect. I never said MH was bad, if you think repeating the same hunt over and over isn't literally repeating content (just because said repeated content has a lot of variety), you're just being intellectually dishonest. I promise, there's better things to do with your time that get tilted someone didn't enjoy your favorite video game. 🙌

[@dragonslayer3552]

4:35 you brought furi as an example of a game with no grinding which is true but also the game is about perfection, it's about re doing the bosses to get better and better, more and more flawless and isn't that grinding in a way like grinding for skill grinding to git gud ?

[@dmsys6516]

You should check out elin demo!! It's my game of the year already

[@AlphaTango166]

4:50 ok ... why is nobody talking about this move ?! it's awesome !

[@mhswoocer]

Genuinely might be my best mhw clip LMAO

[@tywonellington]

I don’t see how Elden Ring seems designed to frustrate. It is, at least for Soulslike players, not all that challenging, and the parts that are can be mitigated with summons. It gives all the tools necessary to be accessible to most players.

[@thearmedbandit]

You said it in your own comment: for soulslike players. For them, its an engaging challenge, for others it’s super frustrating, and I’d definitely bet that 90% of even hardcore soulslike players will say they got frustrated on a certain boss. But it definitely is the easiest soulslike, it’s astounding how much wiggle room you are given (besides a certain attack mentioned in this video)

[@PyroMancer2k]

The issue is not the mechanic but rather the systems around that mechanic. Grinding: If the game isn't fun then grinding seems like a chore. In monster hunter it's fun to just hunt monsters, I jump into MHW and answer people's games to help on hunts. As for Stardew Valley some people find gardening fun and relaxing, both in game and in real life. Rouge-Like: Dragon Quest sounds a lot like the mechnics found in many Rogue-Like such as FTL where you have to manage your resources against unknown number of threats to trying and survive. I think the view on Dragon Quest having a "bad mechanic" is due to different view on what the challenge is. Not have save point seems like bad mechanic if you see each battle as a separate challenge. But if you view the whole dungeon run as the challenge then it makes sense. Imagine FTL if you could have saved after each encounter :P, not quite the interesting challenge of a game. Rouge-Lite: These give power creep the more you play the more abilities you unlock which can often be more powerful and help you do better. It's kinda like the games of old with lives system only you get 1 life. Your clip of Mario 64 made me think of this but as you play the game and unlock new powers you go back to old levels and can reach areas that you couldn't before. So in a way the Rouge Lite aren't much different since you never really fail the game just that stage. So it's kinda a repackaging of an old system where they make death more palatable but also randomize the levels a bit so it's not repetitive. Unfair: Elden Ring it's unfair it's just brutal that doesn't hold punches. The guy tells you that you will die if you go there and thus you die because that's the world. Requiring a player to use all the tools at their disposal it's unfair it's actually good game design. After all if a mechanic exist in the game but the player can simply ignore it then it begs the question as to why is it even there? I'm reminded of the Witcher 3 as the default difficulty allows you to ignore the potion crafting. But if you increasing the difficulty to the next higher level you'll really need to start preparing for fights more and in a sense the game becomes more immersive as you feel more like a real Witcher where the monsters are a serious threat that require preparation. After all there is a reason those potions exist in the books/lore of the world.

[@kurikiarizeth2990]

SONEONE ELSE WHO KNOWS WHAT BRAVELY DEFAULT 2 IS?? I'm about to sub twice 😭

[@skennatic3855]

I suggest you make a video of Slay The Spire next

[@achatmaster95]

LOVED THE VIDEO START TO FINISH!!!!

[@ẞxĦ]

the video wasnt even out long enough before u commented this for u to watch the whole thing

[@achatmaster95]

@@ẞxĦ its called CBT

[@RaidenKaiser]

If you think being stunlocked in er is bad mechanic then stop getting hit. The only bad thing in elden ring is the horse controls.

[@slowmotion3644]

Whats going on with youtube? im surprise your content doesnt get more views!

[@jjking8577]

Bro more videos now!

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

Mentioning the 90% thing was not slick. Saw right through you the way you said it.

[@ruprechtkroenen892]

Video is not performing well... very sad since it seems like the editing part took quite a bit of time of yours

[@mhswoocer]

This ended up being way longer than intended so here's the TLDR: Views are just one way to measure success. I improved a lot in making this video so while I wish it did better, I try not to let it bother me that much No no, it's ok actually! I try to think about YT in terms of things I can control. I'm without question a better editor now than I was when I started working on this video, and I'm really proud of that! I'm also a bit better at using photoshop, making thumbnails, and writing in general! None of this mattered in regards to the performance of this video sure, BUT if you think about this on a wider scale, this means that *because* I made this video, and *because* I worked so hard on it, every single video I make in the future will be significantly better than they would have been otherwise! Would I have liked if this video did 10x the amount of views? Yeah absolutely! But views are just one of many ways to measure progress, and in every single other way, I succeeded!

[@canis760]

I mean, isn't this part of the problem? We had a moment where people started understanding games as creative art, which meant recognizing that they are holistic works that can't be chopped up into defined quantities and understood that way. And there was this cultural tension between people understanding games as products or games as software, and then the people who viewed games as art, something which gave a meaningful experience. And broadly speaking, it was really the people who liked video games that argued for them as art. But it feels like we've moved past that and broadly, people who love videogames want them to be looked at as products. They might not say this, but it's the way they treat them. Once we quantize aesthetic interactions in a game, we are committed to understanding them as products and not as real art.

[@blaxphas]

wow. That was such a great video! You became one of my favourite youtubers now. HIGHLY UNDERRATED channel. really enjoyed it :).

[@Skywolve1998]

I feel like you could (and some absolutely already have) make a video essay all about the distinction between Rougelite and Rougelike. Because when you called Balatro a rougelite, I instinctively felt that was wrong. Because to me, the unlocking of decks doesn't make it a rougelite. And while I consider Hades to be a Rougelite, it's not the unlocking of weapons that makes it one, but the ability it upgrade those weapons and yourself. The weapons and aspects themselves offer varying playstyles, admittedly with different levels of strength. But it becomes rougelite when you can directly and indisputibly make those better by spending blood to give them a buff. However, that's just how I've come to understand the genre. Some purists might not even consider Barbuta a roguelike because it's not a top down turn-based dungeon crawler. It feels like the genres exist on a spectrum and everyone has to choose where the line is drawn. With one end being that stringent list people drew up at a games conference as to what a rougelike must have, and at the other...well I have no idea. What would be the bare minimum for a game to be considered a rougelite by anyone instead of not belonging in the genre at all?

[@SpacedogD]

These are not bad mechanics. Friction is not bad mechanic.

[@FGMagala]

Water Fowl is pretty damn bad, but I think Melania's biggest fault is that she breaks the promise of Elden Ring, in that every single boss before her allows a wide variety of strategies and give plenty of clues as to how to beat them. Melania not only invalidates a massive number of strategies that are viable for the rest of the game, but locks out quite a few mechanics that the game has been teaching you to rely on, not to mention that there are no obvious clues how to beat Water Fowl because all evasion techniques the player's learned to that point don't really work and require a completely unique technique that isn't used anywhere else. I mean, most people who manage to beat her seem to simply give up evading half the attack and treat it as unavoidable damage. Frankly, I have the same gripes with Morg, but at least he wasn't as insanely tuned as Melania so he wasn't as soul crushing and you didn't feel like your likelihood of success was dependent on the number of times the boss used a certain attack.

[@thearmedbandit]

And on top of that, there IS counter play to mohg. Granted, it does force a playstyle, which is still tedious, but the Crystal tear you can use is a direct counter to mohgs bullshit nihil. But Malenia? Given nothing.

[@z0nch1984]

W balatro music

[@snakesan520]

Pokemon bdsp was a bad example because the elite 4 and Cynthia are set up for competitive battling and they're really smart, so while reaching the end is easy the actual end is really hard. Edit spelling

[@lacanm1554]

Its peam

[@toa12th4]

This video is more like 'why rng can be a good mechanic' and also 'why punishing can be good design' Also, calling barbuta a roguelike is a little confusing since it has no random generation

[@yoni7046]

i could barley hear your voice with how loud the music is

[@AerthQuakeWasTaken]

I still think that Malenia's Waterfowl is a bad move even with the lore implications. In a game that's all about mastering an enemy's moveset and perfectly dodging every attack, an RNG move with bad hitboxes and unintuitive design shouldn't exist. The devs could have turned Waterfowl into a long combo with a lot of precise dodging but with intuitive timings and no RNG bs slapped onto it, and it would have been a more enjoyable experience.

[@Ghorda9]

the hitboxes for it aren't bad and it's not un-intuitive, just stop trying to dodge roll everything and utilise the other mechanics. Every single build has a plethora of tools available to them, even a two handed strength build can just block the first flurry with enough endurance or run and jump. Elden Ring is not DS4 so stop trying to dodge roll everything.

[@Aninvader-rm4fl]

you can dodge waterfowl consistently without it being too unintuitive the attack is split into three bursts while moving towards you with the third coming from behind you During the bursts she has slow turn speed meaning getting behind her makes you safe temporarily she is also slightly faster than you while running but not by a huge margin there is a very clear warning for the attack giving you time to prepare once she goes up into the air run away from her, this should build enough distance to let you dodge it properly continue to run away for the first burst, she shouldn't be able to catch up before the second burst begins once she stops moving stop running and prepare to roll through her ,preferably do it as late as possible to avoid chip damage for the third she moves behind you so the lock on will freak out but once it stops moving quickly roll forward and continue walking backwards, this should put you behind her again roll one last time once she stops moving to be safe because the final hit of the third burst has a wider AoE it isn't very intuitive, but if you observe how the attack works you could reasonably figure it out without outside help

[@AerthQuakeWasTaken]

@@Ghorda9 If its not all about dodging every attack, how come can you do so with literally every other attack in the game except a couple attacks (mainly Malenia and Consort Radahn)?

[@AerthQuakeWasTaken]

@@Aninvader-rm4fl I know how to dodge it dont worry. However she sometimes still does a whole 180 and hits you even when you dodge it the right way. Even the position in the arena where she starts the attack matters greatly (if shes near a wall, you will have trouble dodging it in my experience). And even after a successful dodge you usually still recieve a bit of chip damage

[@Ghorda9]

@AerthQuakeWasTaken just because you can doesn't mean you should, often there are better ways to do it even ways that give you more openings and are more consistent. A lot of attacks in this game has lingering hit boxes that you're not supposed to i-frame through but to position out of instead or block.

[@imnotactuallyhim1655]

I do agree with almost everything said on this video, with the exception being that the Dificulty on Malenia rely solely in her watefowl dance. To me it's just seem like a, own experience, kinda of thing. In my own experience the entirety of Elden Ring with the exception of the the dlc was pretty easy. Does that mean that the game failed at some point on it's attempts of doing storytelling through gameplay? I don't think so. There are so many people I know, that even after I taught them or they learned by themselves how to dodge or even nullify the waterfowl dance, still have difficulty in that boss fight. And that's just to show that our own experiences with everything are mostly unique, a boss or mechanic that I like and have a easy time with it could be one that you hate gets frustrated with. And there is nothing wrong with that. Overall, just voicing my thoughts, I really love the channel and your videos.

[@rational1016]

Hell yeah

[@ZeroMatter_]

bro went hollywood and got the production to match... keep it up 🐐

[@mhswoocer]

I'm glad you think so! I thought the last video was edited really well so I made a conscious effort to try to make this one feel even more professional. I think I got kinda close but there's always more room to improve!

[@unrighteous8745]

I'm only a minute into the video, but I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what a game mechanic is. 0:11 Grinding is not a game mechanic, it's just a concept to describe repetitive actions (generally to accumulate a resource). 0:20 Random encounters is a mechanic, not having healing is a lack of a mechanic. 0:26 RNG is not a mechanic on its own, but it can be a part of specific game mechanics. 0:33 Frustration is not a mechanic. Stun-locking is a mechanic. Powerful bosses are not a mechanic. A game mechanic is a specific action in a game. Attacking, defending, wall climbing, double jumping, throwing bombs. An enemies actions... etc... What you're mostly describing are general concepts. "This game is really difficult, RNG dependent, and has lots of grinding" is not describing game mechanics at all.

[@Vilithos]

Hey mhswoocer, this is unrelated to this video but I wanted to tell you the following. Your new profile picture visually has similarities to the german SS/Nazi symbolism used in WWII, some specifically are even banned in germany. Not to criticize your logo, just making sure you don't affiliate with colors and symbolism unintentionally. Hopefully this doesn't sound too tinfoil hatty! If anything I recommend you may pick different colors and use a wider S to simulate the smear. In any case feel free to hide this comment if seen fit. - Vilithos

[@mhswoocer]

oh....... that's... yeah no that's definitely not intentional LMAO I'll change it to green

[@Sinhsseax]

It really doesn't look similar though.

[@Vilithos]

@@mhswoocer Damn you were fast at changing that! Lmao

[@mhswoocer]

@sinhsseax While I do agree, this is the second time I've gotten this comment. First time was from a concerned friend and I decided to hold off on changing anything with the hope that they were just being paranoid. However, this comment confirms that they were not. Even if they were this is one of those problems that's only gonna get worse the more time passes. Yes it's annoying that I have to change 70+ thumbnails now, but it would be a whole lot more annoying if I had to change 140+ thumbnails. Ultimately it's better to just fix it now and forget about it rather than sweep it under the rug until it eventually becomes a more serious problem that can no longer be ignored

[@dmsys6516]

​@@mhswoocer Damn the dedication!! Changing the thumbnails in older videos too! Keep working hard💪💪 BTW your logo is in opposite mirror plane in 'perfect 10s dont exist' Also elin now has a demo so you can check it out if you have time and you are interested!

[@yammoyammamoto8323]

whines about a boss's ultimate attack... ...haven't thrown a pot at her when she sits in the air for half an eternity.

[@thearmedbandit]

Some people don’t like using pots, and he’s not “whining” about the move. Waterfowl is an inherently awfully made move. A move should have multiple angles of approach to countering it, and sure, you CAN dodge it with some precise movement, but MOST players are never going to find that precise movement, so having to rely on stunning the boss out of the attack as being your only option isn’t well made. You could just tank the hits, but this boss specifically actively punishes you for even thinking of trying that with the self heal. So really, tanking it isn’t an option. And before you say anything like git gud, I have no hit Malenia multiple times, and dodged waterfowl dozens of times, I still think it’s a bad move, especially coming from a game development company who have made some of the best move sets for enemies in the industry. They can do better

[@yammoyammamoto8323]

​@@thearmedbandit 1: I hate gid-gud comments. They are only used by brainlets. 2: If you willingly reject an entire slew of tools that the game gives you... You've lost the argument of any sensible person. Not using the torch to see invisible enemies, not using darts to confuse statues/constructs, not using weapon arts... Levelling up. Sure - you can make the game harder for yourself, at your own leisure, but that's not on the game.

[@thearmedbandit]

@@yammoyammamoto8323 1. W for thinking git gud is brainless 2. I actively use all these methods, but a lot of people aren’t aware of them. One of my buddies completely beat the game and didn’t even know he could craft because he never bought the crafting kit from Kalé. My point being is the average player isn’t going to think “oh this character is floating up in the air and about to destroy me, lemme throw a pot!” they are probably thinking “OH GOD IM GUNNA DIE” There are definitely other ways to counter it, like rivers of blood kinda countering Malenia in general, but even using summons can actively harm you if you aren’t using mimic tear because she’ll heal off them, another form of power imbalance I’m not too much of a fan of, I’d prefer if there was a reason to use anything other than Mimic or Tiche, but you get my point

[@CM-FCB]

Please don't flash text on the screen for a ¼ of a second. It's mildly aggrevating to stop the video and go back to read it, often while taking a few attempts to pause it at the right time. Great analysis otherwise though.

[@klassified13]

Thanks for the video on game of the year for 2024 "Astrobot" mr. Swoocer. Loved when you talked about Astrobot in this video

[@heszedjim9699]

I think you misunderstand grinding. Grinding is never a bad mechanic. You make grinding feel bad with repetitive game loops that arent fun enough to repeat. You also make it feel bad when the rewards are garbage, and you dont feel the progression of your work. No mechanic is bad. But there are bad choices to make it not work.

[@hylianfelldragon1308]

Essentially, you can't have the highs without the lows.

[@captainphoton1693]

OK. I see the word unfair right before elden ring.... ..... THE WHOLE DETERMINING CHARACTERISTIC OF SOULS LIKES, SOULS BORNS WHATEVER GE'RE, IS BEING PUNISHING BUT FAIR, HARD BUT PREDICTABLE. WHATS YOUR ARGUMENT FOR UNFAIRNESS.???? jk of course..

[@stunningplatinum9477]

Why are you green?

[@HollandOates]

So well-said. Modern AAA devs need to re-learn this.

[@davidtippy7976]

Barbuta is not a roguelike; it's not procedurally generated.

[@BigDBrian]

yep

[@BigDBrian]

​@@dmsys6516 The point of roguelikes/roguelites is to have different runs, so procedural generation & randomised loot are staples of the genre. When you have the same stage, with the same items everytime, that really does not match the gameplay loop of the genre. It's just the old arcade style restart system. Arcade game is waaaay more accurate than roguelike for this game.

[@Runegrem]

​@dmsys6516 Permadeath does not define a roguelike. If it did the original Super Mario Bros or any number of old NES games would count as roguelikes. The genre has far more traits to it. You can even make a roguelike without permadeath.

[@Runegrem]

@dmsys6516 I understand. That easily happens when you try to keep things short in these discussions.

[@Azure9577]

​@dmsys6516 the definition of roguelikes is permadeath and procedural gen Traditional roguelikes have a lot more things but roguelites need procedurally generated map and permadeath

[@Tekno560]

SMTV

[@RandomGuy-ux8zp]

There are no bad mechanics, only bad implementation. The premise of the video is fundamentally flawed and the examples are purely chosen to maximize engagement. Meh Video.

[@Alloveck]

15:19 No, RNG in hard battles is annoying because the harder the battle is, the less weight your own skill/choices carries. And the less you're intentional player input is in control, the more RNG reigns unchallenged as the deciding variable, and finally winning simply because you got lucky that time isn't satisfying. Take any super hard, dozens of tries challenge in a game, and it's a very safe bet that I didn't finally win by doing better, I finally won because RNG worked in my favor. People say hard battles are more satisfying to win, but I'd say battles I won because I fought them well are what is satisfying. Winning simply because I eventually rolled the dice enough times for the boss not to use the worst attacks at the worst times, or to randomly nail the difficult parries I only get right half the time, etc is what isn't satisfying. I want my own performance to get me across the finish line, not luck. Hard battles take more tries, and every try is another chance for luck to be what drags me across the finish line. Control is necessary for a meaningful victory. And yes, I fully agree the problem with Malenia is that she isn't the Blade of Miquella, she's the One-Trick Pony of Miquella. Waterfowl Dance so nearly exclusively accounts for her challenge that it makes all her other moves just feel like padding and wastes of time.

[@TEMINIX]

You fixated on DQ3R eay. Way too much. People who haven't played it are lost when you specifically get stuck explaining that game's specific dungeon mechanics. Prior to that you were speaking generslly and then you got sidetracked and focused on a single game for an extended period of time.😊

[@thearmedbandit]

It’s called a video dude, and you can just skip it or turn off the video if you didn’t like it

[@mistermamamia]

I would like to pose the idea that grinding is completely unnecessary in monster hunter. What it boils down to is a half baked attempt at making extreme replayability. Why would anyone want to replay a hunt instead of just doing it once and moving on? Well, the solution they use dictates you must collect all the random chance materials before you're ALLOWED to move on. Now what if we look at games of the past and see how they tackle replayability. Number 1, difficulty. Monster Hunter is plenty hard so just retrying fights until you win, already implemented. Number 2 is a question; how does a game keep a player coming back to it after they got good enough so that it's not hard to win anymore? Score. Ranks. Metrics of performance. Why would you replay an old capcom arcade game like a shmup or one of their beat em ups? To beat it flawlessly, to get your score on the cabinet by never dying and utilizing all the mechanics that are in the game to get the highest score possible. Same thing applies for DMC and it's ranks. Gotta get that SSS on every mission right? Imagine playing DMC and that rank was replaced with demon parts that you had to get to unlock your weapons and moves. I mean that functionality is already kind of there with the progression and red orbs, but everyone knows that the true DMC experience is on the hardest difficulty with all your stuff unlocked. The monster hunter grinding method says that the game is over when you have everything, and that you only replay content for fun or with a different weapon. Imagine instead that hunts gave scores and times, and all the monster parts were guaranteed so you can just have whatever cool weapon you want after you've earned it for beating a hunt. Then you can focus entirely on redoing hunts to be better, to take less damage, to break more parts, to waste less resources, it'll be a question of efficiency rather than a question of flow state. The way it is now you just enter in a hunt over and over and over like you would any other kind of grinding until you let yourself move on by getting that part you wanted. It's a mediocre system at best and a detrimental one at worst, I just don't think this kind of grinding should be praised, even if it works out and we all don't mind as monster hunter fans.

[@K0DA._.]

Disagree. Building sets and optimizing both in construction and gameplay is part of Monster Hunter mastery. To continue pushing times lower, you also need to have the best set for the occasion alongside the best skill. If customization of playstyle is addressed by the armor and deco system, then that caters to multiple player types while also encouraging optimizations from players to improve their own times. Sure, maybe drop rates should be a bit higher, and maybe there should be a way to meld materials into other materials, but if the game is called “Monster Hunter,” and the way you progress is hunting monsters, and the way you improve both your build and your skills is hunting monsters, then it makes sense the prerequisite for all of this is hunting monsters. If you don’t want to continue hunting Monsters, then don’t; pretty much all of low, high, and even story master rank can be beaten by a decently-skilled player with a full set grinded off one monster and a weapon upgraded all the way up the ore tree. The hardest monsters in the game are practically impossible without the best sets, so if you’re not willing to progress your build alongside your gear, then you’d probably be better off ending your progression there.

[@mistermamamia]

@@K0DA._. None of what you said convinced me that grinding for the materials was more valuable than just being handed them for doing the hunt, or at the very least, needing to do challenges on repeat hunts to get the rest of the pieces. What does the random element add? You should just be able to do the hunts, get what you want, replay them for better score and time with skill and not just with better gear, and then move on to the next fights they give you, all the way until the end game. Rpg elements like having the better gear do nothing for action games and improving your skill, it just so happens that you get better at the game at the same rate you unlock new stuff.

[@K0DA._.]

@ Bro doesn’t want to hunt monsters in monster hunter 🤡

[@mistermamamia]

@@K0DA._. See, I knew you didn't have a good excuse. My ranking and score idea would make it so you replay a hunt MORE times than just rng, assuming you don't get unlucky. Like dawg, I'm proposing a system that validates your skill improvement VISIBLY on each repeat. There is no upside to the way it is now compared to how I'm describing it. So what if you get all the materials just for beating the hunt once? Is that where your logic ends? If someone doesn't care about score and rank, I just saved them hours of time grinding for something that they didn't even want to grind for. "Oh man, I really don't wanna replay this hunt to get better at it, but I sure would love if I could get a percent chance drop on it, that'd make it more fun". Is this the kind of player you are? What kind of philosophy is "hunting the monster" where that's more fun than playing an action game that acknowledges your skill and challenges you to up it instead of just... get lucky. I hate luck mechanics man. Just a waste of time.

[@K0DA._.]

@@mistermamamia You are fundamentally asking them to alter what Monster Hunter is. The gathering of materials via hunting monsters IS the game. Just like you have to actually go out and get bones and ores for those trees, you have to go out and get materials for the other trees the same way. Monster Hunter is built around sets progressing along with progress. Your scoring and ranking system misidentified the point of the game. Sure, you CAN speedrun the game and compete against others; but what about people who don’t care about rankings or times? You’re assuming everyone else fundamentally agrees with your take about not needing to hunt a monster more than once for parts. If people don’t want to participate in speedrunning and increasing scores for ranking’s sake, then you’ve taken all replayability from the game. If each monster on the roster is only every a single required fight to not only finish every challenge, but make every piece of gear, then what is there to progress to if they don’t want to invest time in competition with others? If you don’t like material drop rates, mod the game. If you want to participate in speedrunning, go ahead. But this loop IS Monster Hunter, and you’re asking for them to fundamentally alter the identity of the game because you don’t like RNG. I’ll admit: it sucks farming for plates, mantles, etc. They should make melding for them easier. But just because you don’t like RNG (which is kinda a fundamental part of RPGs), then either use the tools provided by the community to bypass it or play something else. Also, your idea extremely backloads endgame, and forces people either to abandon the game which would’ve been kind of empty with only as many fights as roster members, or dedicate insane amounts of time if they wish to progress anywhere on the scoreboard. It dissuades new players from investing more time in endgame, which is something recent installments have been trying to avoid. You’re only considered the potential positives of your idea; consider some of the negatives. If anything, just complain the drop rates aren’t higher.

[@eddebrock]

RNG is literally bad and lazy game design, Balatro included. and soulslikes are just Tn'E games with Simon-says bosses at the end of the day. And setting aside the fact that making a distinction between roguelikes and roguelites is special needs, those are not even the correct special needs distinctions.

[@roar104]

Agree with the premise, but it sure as hell doesn't apply to ER. Been a fromsoft fan since before souls and a souls fan since the start, but ER is hot garbage

[@simonealcazar816]

lol sure buddy

[@KitnaMW]

I disagree with half of your video, but I don't want to list them because it will start a fight, since my opinions are considered as highly controversial for most people. I want to be glad that people started to focus more on gameplay in games, but it's still at surface level at best....

[@thearmedbandit]

You are not him bro 😭

[@BicBoi1984]

Elden ring isn't unfair. Only Malenia.

[@yammoyammamoto8323]

Funny that I uninstalled both Balatro and Hades... they added nothing to my life... except excessive boredom.

[@thearmedbandit]

Good for you, then go play something you do enjoy instead of needlessly adding negativity

[@yammoyammamoto8323]

@@thearmedbandit lol... you have issues with someone not agreeing 100%? Perhaps "the internet" isn't for you. :D

[@thearmedbandit]

@@yammoyammamoto8323 there’s a difference between not sharing an opinion and needlessly adding negativity. News flash, I’m not a fan of Hades or Balatro either, not my kinda games, but you don’t see me commenting on this guys video saying some of his favourite games suck lmaoooo

[@yammoyammamoto8323]

@@thearmedbandit ROFL! I didn't even ask - and you were here spewing negativity over hades and balatro... Hypocite - get out of my face.

[@thearmedbandit]

@@yammoyammamoto8323 I never said they were bad games or negative, I just said that it’s not my kinda game. I never at any point said they were bad games. “Get out of my face.” You are NOT that guy LMAO chill out, it’s a KZbin comment. Grow up and stop being a jerk to random people on the internet, it literally does nothing other than make other peoples day worse

[@tylercathey]

I think fromsoft intentions to make bad vosses sometimes because of this

[@moonrabbit2334]

Wtf are you even saying I had a stroke reading it

[@tylercathey]

@moonrabbit2334 the intended

[@vazazell5967]

Title sounds llike cope. And Elden Ring is the worst souls game, so idk how comes the game with most unfair bosses and lack of level design is a masterpiece. And Hades is genuinely the worst roguelite gameplay wise carried entirely by presentation Okay the video is just glazing sucky mechanics from popular games. Somehow bring up very good monster hunter combat and then glaze hades which has barely any content and only meta progression is the difference between runs, and with terrible boons And elden ring, which is just monster hunter stuff but degraded over fromsoft's games. DeS is quite literally monster hunter like, and ER is just every piece of good design removed away from it. Balatro literally just asks you to use one deck and then blocks it with random boss And then he glazes Malenia. The character you literally can't learn to dodge without viewing hitboxes. Amazing analysis, very deep. /sarcastic

[@shirouyasha69]

this comment sounds like cope. Er literally has the best level design out of most souls. Worst souls game my ass, it wouldn't have won goty if it wasn't good. Malenia is a good boss and a boss doesn't need to be intuitive to be good.

[@boggle4763]

This comment sounds like you can’t git gud

[@BigDBrian]

bait used to be believable

[@roar104]

​@@shirouyasha69man, Skyrim has better level design than ER. Level design is the last thing it does good

[@shirouyasha69]

@@roar104 Wow, I missed the part where skyrim became a souls game.