When My Autistic Mask Comes OFF! | Autism & Driving 🚗

[@JAYSCHULBERG-b9u]

I live in the United States and I have had my license for almost 55 years. I feel fortunate to live in a very rural area as I hate multi-lane roads of all kinds, traffic lights, traffic circles, any merging traffic situations and any and all big city driving. My maximum comfortable speed is about 50 mph. Needless to say I don't do any more long-distance driving which is fine with me. I can drive into town on either gravel roads or a highway with with very wide shoulders that allows me to pull over and let faster traffic pass easily. I am also very prone to getting motion sickness. My car is a 22 year old Jeep Wrangler with a manual transmission and hand-cranked windows. I hate automatic windows. I haven't gotten in even a minor traffic accident nor have even received a moving- vehicle violation for over half a century. I might mention that I am very much autistic. I liked your video.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Yes, 50 mph is tops for me too. Thank you for sharing 🧡

[@gardenfaerie9903]

This sounded so much like my life! Everything from the childhood car sickness to all the stress & anxieties. Thank you for talking about this!

[@CreativeAutistic]

I glad you were able to relate! 🧡

[@RebekahAmberClark]

I love driving when it's well lit (preferably full daylight) and a very familiar route with light traffic. Heavy traffic, being someplace unfamiliar, or driving at night (especially on a badly-lit highway) causes me a lot of anxiety.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Thank you for sharing 🧡

[@gmlpc7132]

Learning to drive was incredibly difficult for me and took a huge number of lessons and failed tests over many years with me stopping and stating so many times. Eventually I passed but have never been a confident driver. I'm okay on routes I know well but get very anxious about driving on new routes and going to new places. Parking can also be an anxiety if it's somewhere I've never parked before or it's a busy car park. As you mentioned a bad experience such as an accident, breakdown, conflict with another driver or even just a near-miss can also really undermine confidence. I wish I could be one of those people who just regard driving as a routine, unchallenging - or even enjoyable - event.

[@gmlpc7132]

Lots of interesting points here. I had terrible problems with car sickness when I was young. Being sick was obviously unpleasant but also really embarrassing, even more so if it occurred on events such as school trips and not just with family. Your point about being in the back of the car made me realise that probably all the times it happened I was in the back or on a bus, coach or mini-bus and car sickness is probably far less common when sat in the front with a clearer view of the road and it seems to be almost unknown when actually driving. However that's not the whole explanation as others could sit in the back and not get sick. While I think this problem has gone for me now I do recall feeling close to being sick a few years ago on minibus journeys on country roads with all their twists and turns, sudden braking and acceleration, etc. Being sat in a rear-facing seat made it even worse, maybe because it's more disorienting. Smooth driving on straight roads is much better.

[@CreativeAutistic]

I've could've talked way more about transitions but I think I'll save this for another video 🧡

[@lindalinda0316]

*sigh* Transitions...a big topic. Looking forward to hearing about your experience.

[@CreativeAutistic]

🧡

[@feralnonbinaryautistic]

Another really interesting subject - keep it up!I took lessons as a teenager, not because I wanted to - parents insisted. They couldn't drive and wanted someone to chauffeur them about. Absolutely hated it and haven't driven since. I am really uncoordinated and had no hope of managing all four limbs and my head in an organised way. Plus, I am compelled to read all the text I see. Either doing this, or fighting the compulsion, reduced my concentration on the road to a dangerous level. Like you, I cannot talk in a car - hadn't picked this up as selective mutism - duh! 🤣I've also had issues with motion sickness -only in cars. I definitely prefer public transport. For years, when my kids were young and I worked full time, the forty minutes on the bus to work was the nearest I got to alone time. Now, I can pick quiet times to travel - and my free bus pass is one of my favourite things in the world.

[@CreativeAutistic]

This is so interesting as I often feel panicky on public transport too. I'm glad you're able to take comfort in your bus journeys 🧡

[@feralnonbinaryautistic]

@@CreativeAutistic My dad worked for a bus company when I was small. Maybe seeing behind the scenes with him, and meeting loads of bus drivers and conductors, helped me feel better about it.

[@lindalinda0316]

Lizzie, the topics you bring up on this channel are SOOOO relatable to me. I don't drive and have not for about 30 years because it's so anxiety provoking for me. I hate being a passenger as well...I get horrible car sickness too!! When I was in my 20's, my family lived in a rural area and - like you - I did enjoy driving on lonely roads, but highway driving terrified me. About 8 years ago, I moved to a small college town with good public transportation, which enables me to walk or bus to most places. My life is very small because of this, but it's a trade-off: a "bigger" life and massive anxiety or a "small" life and less anxiety - I am ok with the latter. Also, your last video about alcohol? That's me too!! The sketch of you saying "I love REM!!" cracked me up so hard - that's me!! My response was so lengthy that I had just decided to not respond...but goodness, Lizzie - I relate to you so much. Thank you for talking about these things, which can feel so hard and alienating. 💜

[@CreativeAutistic]

Aww, really??? It's SO nice to know there are others like me out there, Linda! (and REM are THE BEST EVER!!! 😆🧡)

[@lindalinda0316]

@@CreativeAutistic Discovering REM as a "weirdo" (autistic), isolated teen was such a revelation. To my eyes and ears, there was nothing else like them - BEST EVER indeed!

[@CreativeAutistic]

Stipe's lyrics really set them apart. Instead of churning out love songs he wrote about the confusion of being a (weird) human - well that's how I interpreted them anyway. I had a big crush on him for years 🧡

[@lindalinda0316]

@@CreativeAutistic I agree. And when he did eventually write a few love songs, they were about the anxiety and complications of love. Yes, just my interpretation as well. Peter Buck was/is my R.E.M crush; I just adore him. ❤️ 😍

[@CreativeAutistic]

🧡 🧡 🧡

[@Hermitthecog]

Yes!!! I'm thrilled to see this subject discussed as I feel driving in postindustrial society is an apt metaphor for the autistic experience (and I should add I'm coming at this subject with the added benefit of decades' worth of experience as a road bicyclist as well as a driver.) Given that we autists are naturally tuned to hypersensitivity (incidentally I wonder if it ought to be instead called "hyperreceptivity," but I digress), being in a vehicle the physics of which (e.g. speed, mass, etc.) surpass human limitations, our general state of public hypervigilance is immediately engaged the minute a car starts moving with us inside. It forces us to proactively anticipate potential crises over which a human body has very little control; we're literally in the belly of a mechanical whale and completely at its mercy. That said, bicycling for so many years has provided some contrasting insights. Primarily, one is not contained by a bicycle and interacts/engages with one's surroundings at speeds and a scale that are much more natural to the human body. We remain, for lack of a better term, participants in the natural world i.e. we're not cut off from the world by thick layers of plastic, glass, and metal; in terms of psychological effects this is critical, in that one is not cut off from the public space through which one travels and therefore one retains a sense of physical connection with the natural world and elements. There is something very humbling about cycling through wind or rain, knowing that one has no control of these things and we have to work with them in space rather than expect to conquer and vanquish them with ostensibly "superior" technology as our weapon. Which is to say, automobile-dependent society's attitude towards the natural world is inherently antagonistic, regardless of the fact that we as a living animal species are still very much subject to its laws. The autistic part of myself remains wholly attuned to those laws and limitations even when artificially carapaced by a surrounding automobile, so that containment is inherently problematic in that one is expected to endure feeling like a caged animal for the duration of the trip (incidentally one's autistic monotropism is also not so severely disrupted by a service stop via bicycle, because again, one is not abruptly transitioning out of a contained environment, which, come to think of it, feels a lot like being an alien emerging from its spaceship.) As normalized as automotive transportation has become I think it's the most inhuman practice our species has ever adopted.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Oh gosh, so beautifully and eloquently put (as always!) 🧡

[@tracirex]

I've always always always had anxiety around driving. I have a limited driving range and I will not drive on highways or in cities. I might try a smart car at some point. driving isn't for everyone. there's no shame in choosing not to drive

[@Catlily5]

People think that it is weird but I don't drive. 🤷🏻‍♀️​@@tracirex

[@scherzo12222]

It's very reassuring to know I have so much company when it comes to driving, as an autistic person! Thank you so much for addressing this issue. The lifelong car sickness, the mega-stress & anxiety when dealing with highways (high speeds, multi-lanes, traffic lights, merging traffic, night-driving etc.) whether as a passenger or the driver...all this and much more resonated with me, in your video and also in many of the comments. Living in very rural U.S. my entire adult life, I've been driving for half a century. The single biggest source of anxiety each and every time I'm in a car is fear of running over an animal of any kind. It's worse when I'm a passenger, especially on these often single-lane back roads where I live, and it's something that never gets any "easier". The driver then is usually my husband who was a professional (truck) driver for many years with an excellent record. But he drives at "normal" speeds (way faster than I do) and often doesn't spot every little toad or baby bird, etc. ( I DO) and has on occasion run over them before I had a chance to warn him. I can't get this out of my mind for many hours, and some of these awful incidents I remember forever. I wonder if anyone here has this same anxiety...including, of course, the fear of hitting a large animal like a deer.

[@scherzo12222]

Oh...I just noticed this was a month ago! Sorry for the late comment...I'm a new subscriber 🤭

[@CreativeAutistic]

Oh man, if I drove on roads often populated by animals, I'd have exactly the same anxiety going on! Thankfully in the UK, deer, foxes, etc only really come out at night and I've rarely driven in the dark.

[@CreativeAutistic]

No worries at all! I appreciate all comments, no matter when they appear 🧡 (and welcome!)

[@janeb2958]

It took me two and a half years and a very kind and patient driving instructor to master driving in a manual, and I've never enjoyed driving - there's too much information and I tend to over-think, which makes me a cautious and safe driver, but not a relaxed one! And I now have a lot of joint/back related pain issues which driving does not help. BUT I so much prefer driving over taking public transport, where so much more is out of my control and there are all the social conventions, sensory challenges etc. to navigate. Crowds of people make me really anxious, partly because I always have this sense that I might be about to do something completely crazy. I have the opposite problem with talking (I am AuDHD and blurting/lack of control of speech is a pronounced part of my features-I-can't-mask presentation) - if someone else is in the car and wants to talk AT ALL (or I feel an obligation TO talk e.g. a new person or someone I feel awkward around) then I do talk but it becomes stream of conciousness, I can't control the thoughts that should stay IN - which has led to me being accused of road rage when I honestly don't feel that, because my chat is interspersed with surface thoughts like "man in green car, what are you doing? Are you trying to merge? Yes? OK then, I'll just ease up a little" or "come on white car, I'm doing just above the speed limit, there's no point driving right up my tailpipe, it's not going to make me go faster, calm down" - these aren't angry thoughts, just processing ones. On the road rage thing - one reason I don't have it is, I think, that my driving instructor suggested that when someone was driving really erratically or agressively I should assume they had something going on; the thought I came up with is that they have a sick bunny in a box in the back seat and are trying to get to the vet. not sure why bunny, as I'm very much a cat person, but it worked very well in helping me not think about them being unreasonable, and focusing on protecting myself and other road users by driving extra safely, letting them cut in if they were aggressively pushing to etc. I wish I had a partner who drove. Passenger isn't great either (although passenger-with-paper-map worked better for me in the Old Days) but the pre-emptive anxiety I have around driving any distance is so disruptive it would be nice to, well, have company. Tolerant, understanding company of course!" Because I am VERY annoying. My autistic nibling learnt in an automatic with an instructor who specialised in neurodivergent students, passed with no problems, and loves driving around with their music on in their little box. _BUT_ they get to drive a lovely modern car (shared with their mother at the moment) unlike the very old (but much loved) VW beetle I shared with my Mum and sister when I started), and they have far more self-confidence about certain kinds of performance than I have ever had which seems to include driving. My sister (as far as we know neurotypical) is the kind of driver who always drives as if she is right and everyone else will conform, nothing at all defensive or over-thinking, and my brother-in-law drove for work, so perhaps that has something to do with it (my Dad loved to drive so he was in control and drove veteran cars until he had children and reluctantly moved up to a VW beetle and later to more "normal" cars, my Mum only learnt in her 40s and was/is a terribly nervous driver - as children we were trained to Not Talk To Daddy whilst he was driving... and yes, I was very car sick, to the point that there is a gateway about ten miles from our old house on the route from home to the motorway going to visit our grandparents which was pointed out as the "first place we have to pull in because Jane is sick" on long journeys for about 25 years until my parents left the area).

[@CreativeAutistic]

Thank you for sharing - and yes, public transport comes with a whole lot of problems! 😬

[@RuiNa42]

fancy=not a banger...... I've never heard anything more relatable in my life😆

[@CreativeAutistic]

ain't it the truth! 😆

[@RuiNa42]

@@CreativeAutistic My cousin tried to tell me that if I moved back to America I'd do better with driving now because cars have a lot of new safety features like cameras for blind spots and proximity alarms.... gurl, they didn't 20 years ago and that's how old my car would be anyway.

[@CreativeAutistic]

😆 😆 😆

[@walpolekidscomics879]

I'm 34 and don't drive. I did lessons for some time before the pandemic and kind of picked it up in familiar areas but after the big break a lot of anxiety came back and it gets worse every year. It's hard for me driving to not think "cars are weapons" and anything could happen with that other driver... especially with trucks and buses. Plus I am hearing of fatal crashes every single day, multiple ones across my state on roads I would drive. It makes me puzzled that anyone WOULD drive. But people think i'm so odd because I live rural. I am somewhat hopeful that I can learn to drive one day and limit myself to specific areas if that would ever be possible :D The other thing is because I focus so hard on the road ahead I always miss street signs which is NOT good.

[@walpolekidscomics879]

this is automatic by the way ^^

[@CreativeAutistic]

I think limiting yourself to certain areas is the key tbh. I've only ever felt comfortable driving in areas that I know very well and that are also pretty quiet.

[@leejordan001]

Thank you for your story! I'm an undiagnosed autiscit person. I am 40 and I discovered that I am autistic about a year ago. I've got my driving license at 19 yo. I didn't want to drive at all back than. I travelled by bus and I loved it. I could stare out the window and daydreaming all along the road and the bus delivered me to my destination. It was a fantastic thing. It was my alone time, I could recollect on the bus. My father told me that everybody is driving, I should do too. So I started the scool. The practice with the car went pretty smooth because somedays my dad went out with me to drive on empty roads so I already knew how to handle the car. My first hickup was the "rule of the road" test. I failed 2 times despite I learnt a lot. On the third time I didn't learn and I succeded. My struggle started at the road indeed. Man how much I hated it! I had a really annoying teacher who loved to bully boys. He never skipped an opportunity to throw me under the bus how bad I am at driving. Suddenly all the multy-tasking kicked in and I got really bad stutters, shut downs and internal meltdowns. I had to take care of the handling of the car, all the rule signs, the traffic... I had so bad anxiety of the cars moving around us, all the noise, the lights... We practiced in a big city so the traffic was horrific. I remember there was a 4 lane road immediately at the driving scool so every time we drove out it was this situation where on my right side there were cars honking 20 cm from us, on the left side huge trucks were speeding thowards us also 20 cm from us... I was shaking inside but I had to mask that I am confident. When the lesson was over I was in ruins. I got on the bus thowards home and just stared and shaked. i tought how can driving feel so bad? Everybody suffers from it such severly just no one tells? I barely could solve simple tasks like "turn around whenever you can". It was a horribly hard task to me. I had to whatch the signs where is permitted to turn in the middle of chaos... I have sever spatial orientation disorder too. I can't remember places or what road leads to where so it made the whole process more difficult to me. Most of the time driving was like sitting in a bullet which can impact at any time but you never know what will happen next. I barely sense the outlines of the car too so I have trouble to park or manouver precisley. One time I had to park and my teacher asked me to turn the car. I started to struggle with turning so my teacher aggressively turned the car from the second seat with just one smart move... He asked me if I am so stupid that I can't even turn a car, how can I date with a girl? I broke in tears... At the backside of the car there were other students, girls too. I was so embarrassed. Then the day of the exam arrived. I failed it because of I left my ID card at home... Next time I couldn't even leave the car lot because my teacher told me to leave immediatly we have no time, then he stopped me and told that I forgot to check the breaks. The exam was over in 3 minutes... Basically he screwed me intentionally. I cryed in the car next to the mean teacher. He told me he thinks I should never drive. I will kill somebody. (At least he was almost right about that.) I wanted to kill myself because I tought there is something utterly wrong with me in general. I was so depressed. At this point I stopped the school and 2 years passed. I almost ran out of time but eventually gather myself and went back and 3rd time I passed the exam. It was a miracle that I didn't fail. I almost could feel Gon sitting on my shoulder in the whole time. I got my license and didn't drove for 5 years... My parents divorced and my dad took the car... When I finally could by a car my already bad driving skills was totally rusted. I crashed my first car after having it half a year. I barely survived. Fortunately no one was harmed. I break my second car several times. Now I have a 3rd car. I drive for 15 years, 10 years without any crash or scratch. Nowdays I drive every day mostly on the same routs. So I feel a little bit safer but deep in me I feel like I can crash at any time. If I need to drive on new streets I have to prepare myself, and check the routs. One time I drove to a foreighn country which was 1250 km away. Almost all the rout was on highway with 5-6 lanes without speed limit and lasted for 12,5 hours... I didn't know that time that I am autistic. God saved us from a disaster I think. That road was a living nightmare I can tell you but also one of the biggest achievement of my entire life. If I am in the car I get upset so easily. I start to shouting swareing. I figured it out that if I am in the car my anxiety level is on 7 out of 10. Normally my level is 4 so if somebody bothers me with a tough (level 4) question the anxiety level goes up to 8 which I can mask barely but still. But when I am in the car my anxiety level is 7. 7+4=11... I got a bad meltdown and it is over. With my whife we have an agreement that in the car she never tells me bad news or asks me tough questions. That is my short story with driving. :D (Sorry for bad english, I never professionally learnt it.)

[@CreativeAutistic]

Thank you for sharing and I'm sorry to hear how stressful driving is for you - I can relate for sure! I think it can be incredibly difficult for a lot of Autistic people. And your English is great! 👍

[@leejordan001]

@@CreativeAutistic Thank you too for your kind words! :)

[@krisscott4846]

I don't drive, I've never even had a lesson at 43 as the whole thing just seems utterly overwhelming and completely beyond my capabilities that the very thought of it panics me. I've read loads on the subject and it simply adds to the overwhelm. I also struggle with interoception and knowing where I am in space even when walking and feel clumsy and awkward enough on foot, so behind wheels that could potentially kill someone would be a disaster waiting to happen. I struggled with bikes too once the stabilisers came off and didn't have the confidence to try cycling on the road. I felt pathetic and ashamed in saying that I feel this incapable of even trying something, especially before I was diagnosed, but I feel that I now have a valid reason for why it was one of the lowest points on my spiky profile.

[@CreativeAutistic]

I think many of us feel the same way about something in our lives. One area for me was public speaking - or even just speaking to a small group of people (which is weird considering I have a KZbin channel!) My past colleagues seemed to do it with ease but I would always be fighting back tears and it was just so embarrassing. Autism explains so much for so many of us 🧡

[@marisa5359]

I am 46 and never driven either.Totally relate. I have had way too many people in my life want to "fix" me on this point unfortunately.

[@frithkin]

I don't drive have no desire to do so either. It is always to much stimuli all at once. I almost learned to drive when I was 18 it was way too much. So I stopped. It places yet another barrier when so many jobs now want employees with a license for autistic folks who don't drive it potentially even more causes disenfranchisement.

[@CreativeAutistic]

I absolutely agree 👍

[@withheldformyprotection5518]

It’s difficult to find manual transmission cars in the U.S., so I have primarily driven automatic vehicles. I’m with you on the road rage. Yelling obscenities at bad drivers is just part of my driving routine. I don’t like others in the car, but drive fine in all conditions when alone. Other people are my autistic kryptonite. I had a rare driving meltdown in the insane San Francisco traffic when my partner at the time refused to navigate and I missed an exit. They expected me to listen to the computer voice on the maps app, while they also talked to me, and focus on the roadway in an unfamiliar city. Ugh! When I retire, I hope to move to a place with good public transportation, so I never need to drive.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Oh crikey, that would be my idea of hell tbh. 😬 Thank you for sharing 🧡

[@zaaxi7424]

I basically have a phobia of driving although it has definitely lessened a lot, if I am driving on a familiar route I can listen to the radio and be alright. I hated learning and would often get overwhelmed. Motorways + Roundabouts cause me a lot of stress!

[@CreativeAutistic]

I can relate - thank you for sharing 🧡

[@iam-pf4ob]

i have a license but i don't drive and everything you have said makes me even more secure in my decision not to drive 😋

[@CreativeAutistic]

The struggle is real! 🧡

[@RuiNa42]

Overall I agree, driving is too stressful. I am happy to now live in a city with good public transportation,. It is noisy and crowded.... but not driving makes it worth it since my work schedule has my commute outside rush hour times, and I'm learning how to manage the noise with different earphone/plug options. BUT... I love a stick shift. Maybe it is the ADHD overtaking the autism in this context. I like driving with a quiet conversational passenger as well. Keeps my brain in the car. And the stick shift i like because I become part of the machine, like riding a bike. Driving a manual on a country road *bliss*. Automatic in the city 😬😒😒

[@CreativeAutistic]

Ah, that's so interesting! Thank you for sharing 🧡

[@sallybally9731]

I passed my driving test at 19 and don't know how, I crashed into a hedge a ditch and just could not get the hang of it especially reversing, I think with being dyslexic I couldn't seem to get reversing and what way to turn the wheel, needless to say I took the smart decision never to drive again a couple of months after I passed 😂👍🏼❤️

[@CreativeAutistic]

Oh my god Sally - I'm so sorry but I just burst out laughing at this! 😆 Oh, what a shame though, and reversing is SO bloody difficult (and don't get me started on parallel parking - how do people do it????) 😬🧡

[@sallybally9731]

@@CreativeAutistic my family still laugh at the thought of me driving 🤣😜

[@CreativeAutistic]

😬 😆

[@PatchworkDragon]

I can drive, but I hate it. Unfortunately, I live in small city in the US, which means that public transportation is practically nonexistent; driving is not optional. Why I hate it: my spacial reasoning isn't great (so I can't tell where the edges of my car are), I have no sense of direction, and it's extremely dangerous. There's a lot happening at the same time, in every direction, and everyone else always seems to be in a rush. Add this to the fact that I drove beaters for a long time, so unexpected noises and break-downs were a regular occurrence, and the snowy, icy, dark winters, and driving is designed to make me anxious. Traffic accidents and fatalities are a very real concern; I have to force myself not to think about that. Unlike you, I enjoy highway driving because there are no unexpected driveways or intersections and all of the roads and exits are clearly marked. I can follow the same road for hours at no risk of getting lost. That's something, at least.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Thank you for sharing. I imagine that I'd much prefer, even maybe enjoy, (quiet) American highways as UK motorways are mostly rammed with cars so I find them terrifying. 🧡

[@johnbillings5260]

I quit driving totally for around 2 years. It took my partner nagging me enough to get pissed off enough and want to prove her wrong.

[@jamesnock5572]

I had eight lessons in a manual car but i found it an awful experience. I would dread the lessons and have bad dreams about driving. I just couldn't stop shaking during the lessons. Which was embarassing. I was going through a terrible experience in my private life at the time so it was all just to much like trying to juggle plates and they all fell to the floor and smashed.🙋‍♂️

[@CreativeAutistic]

Sorry to hear this, James - it really is SO difficult for some of us 😩

[@Catlily5]

Service Stations stink of gas which is very unpleasant to me.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Yep! I hate the smell too.

[@Autistic-Older-Adult]

Quite a bit resonates there. I also had to travel in the front seat as a child because of car sickness I get the road rage when I see selfish drivers or speeding Rather travel on backroads than motorways I have always found my car to be my safe place particularly when I need to go away for work or with other people. I like to take my own car so I have a place to escape to if I get overwhelmed. I feel trapped if I can’t escape. My first car was an old Toyota Corona that was first registered in the year and month of my birth. Looking back, I had a real Autistic attachment to that car and drove it till it died several years later. Even then I found it difficult to part with it and it sat in my parents front yard for several years until it really had to be disposed of. It had the letters JYL in the numberplate so I called it Jill. Every car I have had since I have subsequently named Jill also.

[@CreativeAutistic]

Thank you for sharing - and I love the story about Jill 🧡

[@scherzo12222]

As another older autistic person, I like what you said about your car being your "safe place". I often spent my lunchtimes in my car when I had some jobs, and sat and wrote in my diary instead of spending that time attempting to keep up the chitchat with anyone. I still do this...sitting in the parking lot while mentally preparing to enter a grocery store! I can certainly see why Lizzie ended up quitting that job rather than keep hauling all those people to & from work! I would've done the same.