When was the Gloam-Eyed Queen defeated? | Elden Ring Lore

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I have added a note under the video based on one of the interesting points brought up by @BlacklistedSoup. I think this might help us clarify the timeline a bit though it definitely does raise additional questions.

[@normanbates7373]

But how could Godfrey be the 1st elden lord if placidusax is already mentioned as an elden lord long time ago? Does myazaki only point to "first elden lord (at the age of the erdtree)"?

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@normanbates7373 Godfrey was the first Elden Lord of Marika. I just think he wanted to keep it a suprise when Placidusax is revealed. It's true the it is kind of "cheating" but since Placidusax is very clearly stated as the elden ring in the time before the Erdtree I think it's ultimately fine and ends up just being a really cool reveal.

[@normanbates7373]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s the cheating is perhaps the ultimate argument of his time stop magic domain to explain every lore contradicting in the time line, but that is usually a weak explanation.. If an elden lord is by default definition always a consort then u are right. But it's still confusing

[@phantomleaves]

Nice video! Despite the debate on when the GEQ was defeated actually occurred, I think you nicely showcased that it must have happened at some point into Marika's reign and not at the very start of it.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Thanks a lot, I still find it hard to pin the exact time it occured and at time it does almost seem like there are some contradictions in the evidence. But it's definitely hard for me to see how it could've been very early in Marika's reign.

[@jamesmarshall6877]

Great video! It is abundantly clear that the gloam-eyed queen was an empyrean challenger to Marika around the time of the end of the Age of Plenty and the creation of the Golden Order. For a moment considered the tumultuous time this was for the lands between (not necessarily in order): The Erdtree fails to create abundance (for worshipers, this would have been devastating) Multiple great wars are fought (2 Liurnian wars, the great dragon war) An empyrean is chosen (the Greater will finds weakness in the current order and encourages competition between great forces, black flame apostate being chosen) Godfrey and his people are banished and stripped of grace (a particularly terrible punishment in this culture) “A mere champion” Radagon becomes Elden Lord Destined Death is sealed away The physical Erdtree is burned (some time after the the establishment of the Age of Plenty and potentially after the establishment of the Golden Order) So considering these events we can at least consider some possibilities (just one for the sake of brevity) The failure of the Erdtree to produce abundance causes the Greater Will to name another empyrean. The Gloam-eyed Queen has the power of the god-slaying black flame and is potentially capable of burning the Erdtree (at this point most other fire related threats have been quelled). GEQ burns the Erdtree, Maliketh seals Destined Death, thus taking her greatest power and defeating her. Faith in the Erdtree is restored and the phantom tree takes its place. Godfrey, having failed to protect the Erdtree and since the last great enemy had just been defeated, is banished (note that this may not necessarily be Marika’s choice, it is the Greater Will that grants grace and takes it away). Being a massive point of contention for the Golden Order, the GEQ is effectively erased from history, which is why it is so difficult for us to find any concrete evidence of her. There are plenty of other threats to the Erdtree that remain, at least in part, but the GEQ is particularly enigmatic, and I think that is intentional through the destruction of her cult and censorship by the Golden Order faith. Of course this is only speculation, there is no real evidence that the GEQ burned the Erdtree. Just a theory to get other people’s creative juices flowing. As for the identity of the GEQ, we may never know for sure.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

These are somq quite interesting theories. It is however implied that the age of plenty was quite short and I do feel like defeat of the GEQ came at least some time after the crusade and the war with the dragons and giants which would be quite a bit of time after Marika became queen. I'm wondering though where you get the idea that the physical tree was burned? Is it based on the scadutree avatar boss room in the DLC? Or based on us knowing that Melina was previously burned.

[@jamesmarshall6877]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s There is evidence that we were not the first to burn the Erdtree, as when we first arrive, Leyndell is already filled with ash! Plus all the windows and doors are sealed with yellow paste to keep it out of the buildings. When we eventually defeat Maliketh, the same ash covers the whole city. Looks like the clean up crew has a big job ahead of our coronation as Elden Lord!

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@jamesmarshall6877 The only issue with the ash in Leyndell being from after the age of plenty and before the golden order is that a really long time has past. I mean in the meantime at least Radagon married Rennala and they both had children which grew up. Since they were essentially immortal this could've been a really long time. And yet in all this time there were no efforts to clean the ash? Of course it being newer is also problematic. Ash isn't supposed to fall until we unseal the rune of death.

[@zeidrichthorene]

Godfrey's grace is manifested in the gold version of him we fight before Marika's bedchamber. It is above the room that Godfrey's golden image is in that sits the chair with a book containing Radagon's fundamentalist writings in it. The spell that reveals the truth that Radagon is Marika. And Radagon is who succeeded Godfrey as Elden Lord. My belief is that it was Marika who divested Godfrey of his grace and cast him out. And I think the role of the tarnished are to get grace through conquest, to bring back to the erdtree. This is what Hoarah Loux did, and I think it's what is expected of the tarnished generally. Grace is lost from the erdtree by its falling leaves. Erdtree burial will help with the return of grace to the erdtree, but only to an extent, it's just entropy. Grace will be lost to the rest of the world on the fringes, and it's the warrior's charge, the tarnished's role to collect runes of grace through conflict, and return the runes to the erdtree. Runes, Grace, Gold they're all the same. The aspect of order. This is different from the erdtree, at least the primordial erdtree. The golden erdtree is the embodiment of the ideal of order. The primordial erdtree is wood, life, aligned with the crucible.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I agree overall, one of Melina's dialogue lines clearly implies that Marika expected the Tarnished to come back at some point. I wonder if this was her plan A or B though.

[@N0lanN_]

Clearest timeline video around, I wish more ER theorist would watch this, to me it seemed clear from the start but it’s true that without the items and dialogue right in your face the story can only lead to many speculations

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Thanks a lot. I'm not suprised personally, it's really hard to create a consistent timeline tbh. Most events are mentioned in seperation from each other, and you often have to rely on less obvious evidence than just item descriptions. Like the environments or enemy placement.

[@SuperKennyWorld]

i think that makes sense, radagon a new consort for a new order... like, thats the purpose of the consort elden lord, to usher in a new era, isn't it?

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Thematically it definitelly does fit as well, I agree.

[@wheelsmanga]

Excellent video! Helped put a lot of things in context.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Glad to hear it! I honestly didn't have a specific conclusion going into this, just wanted to figure out some answers myself. So working on this also helped me put some things into perspective, glad it worked like that for someone else.

[@LastProtagonist]

Hey man, I enjoyed the video! I'm curious if you've ever watched any of mine that touch on the subject, because if not, I find it interesting how we've come to similar conclusions. With that being said, I couldn't help but notice you didn't include the Telescope's description in relation to the Golden Order: "During the age of the Erdtree, Carian astrology withered on the vine. The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the Golden Order." This makes it sound as though the GEQ must have been definitively "defeated" before the Carians' astrology withered, but we're also told by Miriel that the fate of the moon was conjoined with the Order of the Erdtree, so it's a little strange how they're all conflated. Beyond that, some believe the "fettering" of the night skies was the result of Radahn's halting the movement of the stars, which would indeed coincide with how the Carians' fate is governed by the night skies and why Ranni needs him to die to do her Fingerslaying stuff. Even so, I still tend to believe the RoD was removed either right before or during Radagon's ascension to Elden Lord, and as for Rogier's dialogue, I take it to just be a bit of propaganda which he relates to us as hearsay.

[@BlacklistedSoup]

Nice vid! Though I don’t agree with it entirely, here are my notes: 1:00 : the one on the left is specifically Golden Order fundamentalism, which is an ideology that was likely founded by Radagon, much after the Golden Order’s inception. 3:45: I know you haven’t explicitly said that this is the case yet in the video, but it’s important to note that this isn’t the case. That is based off of the fact that the Elden Ring and the Erdtree are one and the same. The Elden Ring acts as a sort of rule set or “code” for the laws of reality, while the Erdtree is a physical manifestation of those laws, and takes an executive position fulfilling them, like the fact how the Erdtree absorbs souls and turns them into blessings. Miyazaki says this in an interview: "So first of all, in the world of Elden Ring, The Lands Between are blessed by the presence of the Elden Ring and by the Erdtree, which symbolizes its presence, and this has given grace or blessing to the people throughout the land, great and small." (Edge interview) He also says: “What can represent these rules and order but also not be absolute? That was the question that ran through my mind when I created this image. And the tree really fits the bill nicely for that because the tree is something that's alive, it's something that grew, it's something that will eventually wither and die.” The Erdtree is a direct representation of the Elden Ring and its laws, it would be impossible for it to exist without the Elden Ring, the Erdtree is something that directly represents the Elden Ring, something that was born with it, and something that dies with it (in wake of the shattering of the ring). 7:15: The branch is likely sacrilegious because owning a part of the Erdtree is likely frowned upon in Golden Order society. As we know the Erdtree used to be the primordial crucible, from which life sprouted from, so we know it was “just a normal tree” albeit perhaps in color and texture “Armor used by Ordovis of the Crucible and his men Armor of the Crucible Knights who served Godfrey, the first Elden Lord. Worn by the knight Ordovis and his men. Holds the power of the crucible of life, the primordial form of the Erdtree.” “Subcutaneous fat makes them plump and soft. Worn by Godskin Nobles. Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form.” “The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence.” 10:20: Again, the Golden Order explicitly was created at the birth of the Erdtree. We have a Miyazaki interview that says this: “In the sort of heyday of the Golden Order of The Lands Between there were two Elden Lords, and Godfrey was the first of these. He was the very first Elden Lord and was married to Eternal Queen Marika, who’s been detailed in some of the lore we’ve released publicly so far. And he was representative of this period of grandeur and affluence. He represents everything great about the Elden Ring and about The Lands Between at that time.” And we also have Rogier saying this: “They were conceived at the great Academy of Raya Lucaria, to the north of this castle. In the past, they obeyed laws which contravened the Golden Order, or so I'm told. Fascinating, isn't it? That the Golden Order was pliable enough to absorb practices that contradicted itself in the past.” Meaning the Golden Order had to have existed prior to Raya Lucaria and had to have also existed long enough for it to contradict it. 13:25: I don’t really see why the Gloam-Eyed Queen would need to be present for the Flame Monks to get seduced by the flame, we’re specifically told they were enthralled by the flame, *not* the GEQ, the Godskins still exist post the defeat of the GEQ there’s no reason the monks couldn’t have been created afterwards as well. 14:15: Why would Messmer knowing Radahn or any other of the Carian children mean that the Rune of Death was sealed after their births? Also Abductor Virgins in The Land of Shadow makes completely sense considering we see other enemies that went to The Land of Shadow post Scadutree-veiling like Devonia. 18:49: The “True Order” Kenneth Haight is talking about here is just the Golden Order. He’s is just extra pompous and likes to add a flare to his speech. Kenneth Haight being dedicated to the Erdtree wouldn’t be worshipping some other previous Order. Everything else about his speech paints him espousing the Golden Order and the Erdtree, he even says: “enter into my service and learn the working’s of the Erdtree’s true Order.” It’s hardly something someone who opposes the Erdtree would say. And again, the Erdtree and the Golden Order are one and the same. 20:20: I mean, Godfrey is literally Marika’s Lord who was a key part in allowing her to establish the Golden Order, I see no reason for Godfrey/Hoarah Loux to be an agent of another secret Order that is never mentioned. Godfrey has ties to the crucible, yes, but as we know the crucible evolved into the Erdtree. 22:22: Radagon espouses to the Golden Order and Marika even describes him as its “leal hound.” He is likely the founder of Golden Order fundamentalism (his incantation can be found in the Golden Order Principa replacing the Law of Causality which hammers down on Radagon’s regressive nature. 25:35: I believed Marika banished Godfrey not only to give him conflict once more but also to sow the seeds of the Shattering as she grew disillusioned with her Order. Thought this is getting off topic. 26:20: Godfrey became Marika’s Lord to establish her Order, he believed heavily in her ideals. Even as much as returning to her upon his resurrection. Marika saw the suffering of her people and ought to rid the world of death, of suffering, this is ultimately what Godfrey fought for, whether it was for the conflict it brought or the end result is insignificant. 28:25: As I said in another message there’s no reason not to believe Rogier. All in all I appreciate your video but I ultimately think a lot of your conclusions are misguided. My best evidence is obviously Miyazaki in the Edge interview where he explicitly says Godfrey was a Lord in the age of the Golden Order, but aside from that I still consider the Erdtree and the Golden Order to be two sides of a single whole, one acting as a legislator the other as an executive, if you will. I can go into this more in depth later, but for now that is my response.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

> the one on the left is specifically Golden Order fundamentalism, which is an ideology that was likely founded by Radagon, much after the Golden Order’s inception. The left one is the Erdtree sigil. The right one is the Golden Order sigil. We don't actually have seperate sigil for just the Golden Order that wouldn't be an incantation used by Golden Order Fundamentalists. >I know you haven’t explicitly said that this is the case yet in the video, but it’s important to note that this isn’t the case. I talk about this later in the video but the golden order was established specifically after the rune of death was plucked from the Elden Ring and that was some time after the Erdtree was already established. I definitely think the game in some sense once to at first trick us into thinking that the Golden Order and Marika have always ruled and are eternal, since I think that's what the common people of TLB believe. But we later find out that there was a previous order, just like we also find out that even before the Erdtree there was a time when Placidusax was the Elden Lord. > The branch is likely sacrilegious because owning a part of the Erdtree is likely frowned upon in Golden Order society. The sentence rather suggests that it's about the fact that the erdtree's branch is withered. Which is actually another suggestion that there was a time when the rune of death wasn't sealed and the erdtree was present. The Golden Order wanted people to believe that the tree was immortal which we also know from the golden seeds. >Again, the Golden Order explicitly was created at the birth of the Erdtree. All the evidence proves otherwise. Rogier is just talking about Golden Order Fundamentalism. His dialogue reflects the same sentiment that the Radagon Talisman does which also talks about what eventually led to Golden Order Fundamentalism. The talisman talks about him studying the incantations only after he became the husband of Marika. So this would all be after he became Elden Lord. As for the Miyazaki interview it would still make sense if the Golden Order was established while he was Elden Lord but long after the erdtree was burn. But to be fair there is just a lot more evidence in the actual game that points towards it being after most of the conflicts were finished and we know Godfrey lost his grace after that. So I think Miyazaki just was using his limited time and had to simplify some context. I mean if he wanted to tie the Golden Order to earlier times he would have done it through actual environmental storytelling, enemy and item placements, item descriptions etc. All of those on the other hand actually prove the opposite. >I don’t really see why the Gloam-Eyed Queen would need to be present for the Flame Monks to get seduced by the flame I don't really see why they would be seduced by the flame after it has lost its power. In that case this event become narratively meaningless and in fact somewhat misleading. > Why would Messmer knowing Radahn or any other of the Carian children mean that the Rune of Death was sealed after their births? As I mentioned in the video. The Lands of Shadow have no evidence of the GEQ, godskin apostles or blacfklame. Neither does it have mention of the golden order besides one spell developed by Miquella (who came here later). Sure, you could just call this a coincidence but that's not the case. The DLC is a deliberate time capsul of how things used to look like. Even the Marika temples have different iconography, which I believe to come from the time she was worshipped before the Golden Order. >The “True Order” Kenneth Haight is talking about here is just the Golden Order. He could've just used the term "Golden Order". You wouldn't say that if you weren't implying there was an order that was false. Remember also that he picks Nepheli as the ruler, who is implied to be descendant of Godrey. He of couse mentions the Erdtree since all the mentions of the "Age of the Erdtree" were tied to Godfrey as well. Even his attitutude towards the demi-humans is interesting. There'a s lot of evidence that during Godfrey's reigns they used to be more tolerant towards other races. The Storm Hawk King respects Nepheli just like Serosh respected Godfrey. On the other hand in modern times the hawks and lions we see with the armies are always chained. So Kenneth's attitude towards demihumans seems more fitting for that era. >I see no reason for Godfrey/Hoarah Loux to be an agent of another secret Order that is never mentioned. It's not some mysterious order. Check out the second line in the Elden Lord Crown, I think you'll get it then. >As I said in another message there’s no reason not to believe Rogier. I'm not saying we shouldn't. As I mentioned he's talking about Golden Order Fundamnetalism For your last paragraph in general I get where you're coming from. But all the evidence just seems to create clear destinctions between two different orders. None of the items related ot the early conquests of Godfrey talk about the Golden Order but they do often mention the Erdtree or the Age of the Erdtree. On the other hand in the golden order items the only characters we hear mentioned are Radagon or Miquella, characters tied to a later time. Radagon in the japanese version even is called "The Golden Order". Then there's just the enemy placement in Farum Azula and just the DLC as a whole. Sure you can poke holes at each of these and just claim that it's a coincidence or Miyazaki forgot about certain things or maybe he's trying mislead us from the truth on purpose. But I just don't see it that way. I get why the theory that the Erdtree was birthed at the same time as the Golden Order is enticing though. That could lead us to a conclusion that maybe the GEQ was the god of Placidusax and magically resolve all the answer in the games. That's what I actually highly considered before the DLC but when I started looking more objectively at the evidence it became just harder and harder to believe. It was hard to let go of a theory which just seemed so fun and convenient but I just couldn't hold onto it under the weight of evidence.

[@johncrondis4563]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s Good dialogue my dudes. I liked reading all of this :) How do we reconcile multiple things saying Godfrey is the very first elden lord, and Placi being Elden Lord before the erdtree? I feel there is some evidence to suggest that the DLC story trailer is showing the GEQ, I am of this belief, and thus I lean towards the Golden Order being at the same time as the Erdtree. I also take the interview quote to be highly important, saying that Radagon and Marika were one while she was with Godfrey. In the DLC story trailer it is obviously a male body that holds those golden threads, but with Marika's hair, I think this clearly shows that Radagon and Marika were one here. I also think if the Elden Ring and Erdtree are the same, as per the interview, then Destined Death being removed is what began the Erdtree and thus the Golden Order, since I think this version of the Elden Ring is defined by not have the Destined Death rune. Additionally, with Godskins and destined death in Farum Azula, I think it helps makes the case that the GEQ is quite ancient.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@johncrondis4563 I think they just mean that Godfrey was the first elden lord of Marika or of the age of the erdtree. They just wanted to leave Placidusax in this way as a suprise. It's possible most people in TLB don't even know there was an earlier Elden Lord. The only way I can see the GEQ being shown in the trailer if this was somehow long after Marika's ascension, which everything suggests it's supposed to represent. Arguably it would even have to be after the crusade which would directly contradict what the trailer shows. As for the erdtree being created at the same time as the golden order from what I see that would just create too many contradictions with what is shown in the game. There's even some stuff I didn't specifically mention on top of what's in the video like the branch in the great club withering suggesting it's from a time when the erdtree was mortal. There's also the the fact that if the rune of death was removed to seal the destined death of the demigods then what demigods would these be if none would be born yet before Marika's ascension. As for the godskins in Farum Azula. Yes, it's ancient and clearly not easy to get there but there are obvious later arrivals even besides us and Bernahl who sacrificed a maiden/used the flame of frenzy. There is Alexander, Two Crucible Knights, The Draconic Erdtree sentinel and the Maliketh himself. All from Marika's time.

[@johncrondis4563]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s I like these points, thank you, especially the destined death and demigods one, I never thought of that. What do you think the DLC story trailer is depicting with the godskin clothing looking thing?

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@johncrondis4563 So I do think it's cloth with probably a body inside. But I don't really see the godskin clothing resemblance. The seams are the same color as the rest of the cloth. The onle places we see seams on the godskin noble clothing is the gold seams which really stick out from the pale skin. On top of that again, the game shows no evidence of the GEQ existing at this time or at the least being active in this region. There are no godskin apostles, no blackflame, no mention of the GEQ. The Hornsent worship lions and hawks and in fact the Hornsent npc after defeating Messmer insults him after seeing that he has the snake inside him. I doubt he would see snakes as "base" and view them negatively if their queen was leading an army of snake-like people. I'd also see the only possibility for the GEQ to be in the trailer would suggest that this took a long time after the birth of the erdtree. Maybe the GEQ wasn't active in this land and she just took her body here. I mean it's not impossible. But then the timeline becomes a lot more messy. Does this mean the trailer doesn't show the ascension of Marika? If it does, does that mean Marika wasn't a goddess during the birth of the erdtree? For how long then? How were her children demigods if she only became a god later?

[@joesaiditstrue]

Noticed something interesting about Marikas dialogue where she says to Radagon "Thou'rt yet to become me, Thou'rt yet to become a God" I think shes saying that Radagon is trying to completely take control over Marika and the only way she can stop him is to shatter the Elden Ring (which is essentially herself), aka commit susieride

[@kasp7674]

I really, really like this video, even if I disagree. I have a few issues with the idea of the GEQ being so late in the timeline. 1. The GEQ is dubbed Godslayer, through the name of her sword and seal. However we have evidence that suggests that she didn't kill any God's under Marika's reign. Similar the Godskins doesn't skin any God's in Marika's era, but are still called Godskins. Personally I think this points to an era before Marika, where the GEQ killed Gods we don't know about. 2.The GEQ has a lot of ties to the Crucible era. Her sword is a spiral sword and the Godskins "assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible". 3. Why would Marika wait with removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring until after defeating the GEQ? Surely she would have sealed it away and stolen away the GEQ's power before fighting. This point's to the fight happening before Marika had control over the Elden Ring. 4. The fact that neither Radagon or Godfrey participated in the fight, points to a place in the timeline before them, or just after Godfrey's banishment.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I think there's too much evidence pointing to the fact that it did come some time later and we'd basically riddle the game with contradictions but regarding your points. 1. I think this is just to suggest the flame does have god-killing powers. So it could've even killed Marika, if it was called the "Demidogslayer" it would suggest it can only kill demigods and not gods, which isn't the case. Let's also remember that the DLC shows to us that you can become a god without being a vessel of the Elden Ring, the hornsent were supposed to worship many gods and Marika established the golden order on the principle that she is the one true god which sugggests there could have been many gods before her. 2. Godfrey as well. Does that mean he and his knights had to be from before the age of the erdtree? In fact the crucible knights still exist, still have a spiral symbol on ther armor and still use crucible incantations. 3. As I mentioned in the video there is just too much evidence showing the sealing of the rune of death happened quite a bit after the age of the erdtree. So in my mind we need to find answers that fit the evidence, not ignore the evidence in favor of a more convenient answer. 4. Why didn't Godfrey figtht in the Liurnian wars? Or why didn't Radagon or Godfrey fight in the War with the Dragons? Why didn't Radagon fight in the war with the giants or in all of Godfrey's campain. The Age of the Erdtree was a fight on many fronts. All the great warriors couldn't fight in all of the wars. I also suggested an explanation in the video for why none of them possibly took part. I also personally think the fight with the GEQ wasn't an all-out huge war. It was more like a dedicated covert force. That's why we don't have that much info on it.

[@N0lanN_]

@@kasp7674 well concerning your first point, I personally do believe there is actually a lot of demigods missing to begin with. What happened to the golden lineage for Godrick (and Godefroy I guess) to be its only last representative? Considering this timeline I feel the GEQ fit perfectly this puzzle. Could also explain the presence of those walking mausoleums. Then also the only inhuman trait given to the Godskins are those serpent like trait, I think it’s way more fair to associate her with the God devouring Serpent enemy of the Erdtree than the crucible itself, especially since there is no trace of her nor Godskins in the land of shadow, unlike the church of Eiglay itself as an exemple. Maliketh defeating the GEQ kinda implies that somehow the rune of death was in her possession at the time, maybe stole it? It is not foreign that the ER could be split before the shattering, after all Radagon gave Renalla the rune of the Unborn

[@kasp7674]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s You should take my comment as an addendum to @BlacklistedSoup‬'s comment. Basically, I don't buy the idea of the Golden Order being post Godfrey. 1. In response to your evidence of Draconic Tree Sentinals. We don't know when Maliketh went to Farum Azula. He was described as "Death of The Demigods", which would be a weird thing to be called, if he was just hidden away in Farum Azula ever since he sealed Destined Death away. He must have been somewhat around. So this isn't strong evidence. 2. In response to you Black Flame Monk evidence. It is specifically mentioned that Amon converted to the Black Flame because he was a coward. This points to him choosing The Black Flame specifically because it had been made impotent. Basically the impotent Black Flame was less scary than the potent Flame of Ruin. Points to be post Golden Order. 3. Then you have lack of evidence of Godfrey being connected to the Golden Order as evidence that he wasn't. This is weak stuff. 4. Kenneth Haight's "True Order" which is obviously just him hyping up the Golden Order. This is basically every piece of evidence you provided. Here is a piece of evidence for you. Godfrey's linage is called The Golden Linage. That would be a pretty weird name, if he wasn't connected to the Golden Order. It's fairly obvious that Marika had the Elden Ring at least immediately after the war against The Fire Giants. "An epoch glistening with life. Brandish the Elden Ring, for the Age of the Erdtree!". "An epoch glistening with life" is pretty telling of what the Age of The Erdtree was about. Basically removing death. We know the Erdtree is a manifestation of the Elden Ring, and she obviously, at least, already had the idea of an Order of Life, prior to beating the Fire Giants. This basically makes it impossible for the GEQ to be post the war against the Fire Giants as there is no space. It makes it much more likely that Marika had already created the Golden order prior to the war against the Fire Giants.

[@kasp7674]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s Ups I forgot to answer to your answers. 1. Yes the reason why I think the GEQ was early, was because there where a lot of Gods to kill and skin. Skinning and wearing the skin, points towards stealing the powers, in my opinion. And the apostles have crucible powers, which they stole from crucible Gods. There is also a difference between god-slaying and the title of Godslayer. 2. Yes Godfrey obviously originates from before the Erdtree. 3. I disproved the evidence and provided counter evidence in my other comment. 4. I think Radagon fought against the Giants. It is specifically rumored that he was cursed by them. I think the reason why neither Godfrey or Radagon fought against the Dragons, is because it happened after Godfrey's banishment but before Radagon was called back. I think the Dragons attacked because Godfrey was banished and Messmer was sent after the Hornsent. Basically a vulnerable period the dragons took advantage of.

[@chingchief2721]

You made a very good point When markia return to the village raddgon not within her body Gold without order ( order mean raddgon)

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I think there's a definitely different ways to interpret it. Like it could just mean it's supposed to be gesture of pure love and compassion. This still might be true but I do think there is that other meaning you mention.

[@ProfOrProf]

Pacal!! GG on making a dope vid!

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Thanks man :)

[@Zard1212]

Great video. Really appreciate evidence based approach. I think Golden Order was created a bit earlier that you proposed. First - Radagon Rule is knows as Golden Order Fundamentalism. So if Golden Order was created very close to Radagon Rule then it doesn't really make sense to create another named era very shortly after. Just use Golden Order. To me it indicates existance of more tolerant Golden Order. One that Rogier mentioned. Second - Ranni doesn't mention Gloam Eye Queen as an Emperyan. I think the most likely explanation is that GEQ was defeated before Ranni was born. Before her era. So before the end of Liurnian Wars but after war of the Giants (because of the blackflame monks). As for who GEQ is - i don't really see any other possible candidate except Melina. IF GEQ was an Emperyan during Marika's rule that has to mean she was her daughter. Melina is the only one who fits timeline wise. Also with how connected Melina is to Destined Death and her "Gloam Eye" i don't really see how you could argue against her. This is like Messmer being Radagon kid. It's not confirmed but it's obvious.

[@stevenwayne3701]

Thank you for making this video. There are still people confused on how Godfreys conquest era was the age of the Erdtree while the Golden Order is directly tied to Radagons reign. This helps distinguish the timeline for other characters and items

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I think this confusion is understandable. I personally used to consider the golden order and age of the erdtree to be the same thing.

[@FaeQueenCory]

There's a simpler proof. Starting with the facts: • The Gloameyed Queen ruled with the power of the Rune of Destined Death • The Gloameyed Queen was an Empyrean (神人) • Queen Marika removed the Rune of Destined Death from the Elden Ring • being the Elden Lord is being wed to the Queen who has the Elden Ring Therefore: The Gloameyed Queen was killed when Marika achieved the Elden Ring (implied to be at the top of Enir Elim), as she was the original owner of the Elden Ring. And as the original owner, thus god (神), her husband would be the First Elden Lord: Placidusax. Hence why he mourns her loss. There's also more that ties into Metyr like the shape of the Godskin sigil... And the fact that the minor Erdtree in Marika's home village is "grace without order"... But the answer to who is and when the Gloameyed Queen died has always pointed directly to "the god Marika overthrew".

[@WheatDos]

The Queen was defeated, she wasn't killed. Also, the Queen is never referred as a God, just a Empyrean. She may have been a Empyrean that killed Gods.

[@gagemcmahon9485]

Spot on bruv i agree with alot of what you said. I think the connection between Radagon, order, the elden beast being the living embodiment of order, marika blessing the shaman village with ‘gold without order’ and the tied waistband we see on shadow realm statues, thats missing in lands between statues, but present on radagon, is all really strong. What it all means im still not sure. Also the cut asimi quest had me certain of radagons origins for awhile, but the st. Trina and miquella thing have muddied the waters.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I agree, the DLC definitely did bring us some interesting info. I actually forgot to bring this up in the video but I do believe the different depictions of Marika between TLS and TLB suggest a different order being presented to us between the two. I always assumed the symbol behind Marika in the base game was supposed to be a symbol of infinity, signifying her status as "Eternal". And yet in the DLC her statues don't have that symbol. Another interesting thing are the armbands. She has none in the shadow land statues, one in the Messmer statue and two in the base game. This doesn't really seem odd but then for some reason she has at least one in the SOTE story trailer. Would that mean her ascension came after she was worshipped in TLS (even her shadow keep statues have no armbands). That would seem really odd to me.

[@gagemcmahon9485]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s true its like she ruled twice, as if when she ‘ascended’ she was already being worshipped, then remade everything, which tracks thematically, but is hard to envision. Another thing gnawing at the back of my head is her different poses. Its so in your face that her ‘crucified’ pose is the only one you see in the entire lands between. She must have had agency after using the divine gate, but literally the only depiction we had before the dlc was her imprisoned. Its somehow related to godhood being a prison and miquella divesting his flesh, and ranni divesting hers. Did marika tell them not to ascend while still having a physical body? Did it leave her open to control by the greater will after already having ascended? Cant figure it outtttt lmaooo

[@zeidrichthorene]

Gold is a concept. Silver and Gold correspond to moonlight and sunlight, and represent the concepts of cold intelligence and rationality, and warm faith, compassion, trust, and hope. The Golden Order is the effect of regression on gold, the pull of gold to convergence. There's a few different types of regression present in this case, one is the pull of gold to converge on gold. Another is the more primordial pull of the crucible for life to regress to the undifferentiated whole. Then there is absolute pull of the frenzied flame towards regression of the universe in its entirety to a condition prior to disparity. The golden order is what happens when you serve to further the cause of the convergence of gold through holding the other concepts at bay. And the elden ring is the structure that enforces the rules which hold those other concepts at bay. Gold without order is gold in its natural state. It's true and pure and just warm and caring and faithful. The golden order is what happens when you try to enforce this state, and it's actually kind of terrible because it forces atrocity to try to perpetuate it. Then we have unalloyed gold. The golden order is established through the combination of gold with some other concepts, through conquest with Godfrey, through Scholarship and intellect with Radagon. Unalloyed gold is unattached to any of those, it is pure faith and compassion, unattached to reality, to conquest, to power. It's incapable of standing alone, and this is why Miquella's goal was to just flee to the stars. Gold lives in opposition to disorder, regression is always on it's heels looking to see it recombine with chaos. Where Marika sought to create structure to keep those powers at bay, Miquella just choose to run away, enchanting his followers with pure faith, having them shed all reason, at least until his ascension where he could leave their imperfect selves behind. When you think of St Trina, consider what is happening with Marika. Marika when she has her demigod children, separates aspects of the whole. Her ascension to godhood comes from her merging with the whole, becoming a perfect being, an Empyrean. But she doesn't want unity, completeness. She wants to separate the gold. With Messmer she separates the serpent. With the gloam eyed queen she separates mortality. With Morgott and Mogh she separates the chaos of the crucible. When she goes to make Miquella she is looking for an eternal heir, and so he is the entirety of her, but she separates the decay and vigilance from him at the same time, recreating the rot that was sealed ages ago, in Malenia. Remaining in Miquella is perfect birth, a life of abundance, and sweet sleep (but not death, death has been removed). Miquella is in the haligtree, and the rune of perfect birth is removed in its amber by radagon later, leaving the concepts of abundant compassion and sweet sleep remaining. This creates a dual nature in Miquella and St Trina until he abandons her. This would leave Miquella then with the soul of compassion and the power of abundance, until he eventually divests himself of everything, of that abundance, leaving essentially a core of pure, ephemeral, irrational, unflinching compassion, faith, hope. Completely untethered from reality or consequence. I think the statues show aspects of Marika at different stages. I think it simply indicates clearly that when marika is wearing it, it is prior to the differentiation of Marika and Radagon. A sort of unity, a fullness of character that is lost when she separates the aspects. The cord is generally also evoked in imagery where she is pouring a chalice in the age of plenty, and I think it evokes the idea of providing, something that I think Marika stopped embodying herself when she creates Radagon, and lets him later take up that role. Marika instead just embodies sacrifice for her golden order, Radagon would be the one to provide, to maintain, produce, etc.

[@truckfinanceaustralia1335]

Great vid!!! 🍻

[@NamelessKing1597]

My guess would be just after the Omen twins were born.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Interesting, any specific reasons you think of this?

[@eazyelof4283]

So what about the DLC trailer, whats the fleshy bits, snake or godskin? Is this before the age of the erdtree, or is this later at the founding of the Golden Order, which Corhyn said is based on Marika being the one god?

[@joesaiditstrue]

Why is Nephali as large as a normal human but her father is huge like Radagon/Malenia

[@LegondmanB62]

Can you please please please share this file somewhere? I have more evidence to support this exact timeline and have written a 20 page word document on it and could provide some more insight and evidence supporting this I would love to share with you. I'm also available to exchange social information to chat more on this topic.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Sure, maybe on discord then? Don't think youtube has a private message option anymore.

[@Eruke17]

YES YES THIS IS SO GOOD I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

Thanks, great to hear :)

[@maiafay]

I think she killed the GeQ at the gate of divinity. Marika tore threads out of a serpent-like creature. I also think there’s multiple GeQ’s chosen or embodied. Vessels for her power that give her agency in the current age.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I definitely think there's something appealing about this theory but I personally don't seem to see much evidence for it. The thing she pulls the threads is covered in cloth and we don't really see scales on the inside part either. I'd rather assume there's just a body inside it. We also don't really hear about the GEQ or the godskin apostles at all in the DLC. No single enemy even uses blackflame to my knowledge. And we know that The Lands of Shadows are a place where all manner of death washes up. I think this is the DLC telling us among other things that this land is a time capsule from before her time.

[@maiafay]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s there’s another thought to add. The black flame is a pale version of what it used to be. The knives the assassins wield are red flamed versions of black flame, the god killer. I do believe on the description for the black flame incantations states they are weakened because destined death was sealed away. So the Godskins aren’t even wielding the full power of their goddess. Godwyn shows up in the shadowed lands, but if the GeQ was exorcised completely then she might not. Or she might be barred from having influence. Either way I’m writing a fanfic that plays around with this theory where I have the GeQ’s altars hidden in the land of shadows for the tarnished to discover. It’s the reason I find it fascinating 😊 Oh and I do think despite the size of this DLC there was a lot cut or not realized. Many of the bosses don’t have cutscenes and the ending was so…meh. Other little things like the bigger molt husks for the man flies and we never see them, the lack of the putrescent sorceries those weird undead used in the catacombs, etc.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@maiafay It's definitely and interesting idea. Though I personally would need quite a bit of good evidence at this point to think that the GEQ was from before Marika's ascension and even then I think it would result in a lot of inconsistencies.

[@darthnut7089]

Whats your personal theory on who the Gloam Eyed Queen is? I personally think this timeline of when the godskins were at their peak in power would support Melina being the GEQ but im not 100% sure since we get so little on her.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I'd definitely want to go over some of the evidence again before establishing a more concrete answer. But atm I see two options really. The first is as you mentioned it being Melina, I feel like this would require the least hoops to go over. The location where we find the blade of calling which seems to have been owned by Melina is quite interesting. We find an official's robe with the following description there "Grubby blue robe worn by magisterial officials to carry out their grim tasks. Surveillance, executions, gruesome rituals... The darkest duties drive the wheels of mankind.". There are of course some issues with this theory. Melina doesn't seem really "snake-themed" and if her original task was to burn the erdtree, then why would she be chosen as an empyrean? The other option is that the GEQ was just some unknown person chosen as an empyrean (which I admit isn't a very satisfying answer) and her powers got somehow just transfered to Melina. Either she was just given the eye by Marika so she could someday lead the tarnished to destined death or just somehow inherited them like Messmer with the powers of the abyssal serpent. For this option though I would lean towards the first because the eye Gurranq gives us does seem to be a matching pair of the eye Melina has in the frenzied flame ending. I also always felt like the mark on Melina's eye is somehow related to the twinbird. He's the first bird-like entity that is death-themed and comes to mind (and was an envoy of an outer god). But I it's hard to say if this is just symbolic or actually suggests some of the powers of either the deathbird or its outer god of death are somehow sealed in the gloam eyes.

[@lewis1423]

so this might be a weird point but when did the elden beast show up? i ask this beacuse two things point to it kinda being much later. first would be the fact that the two fingers are said to be broken, that Metyr, mother of fingers could no longer commune with the greater will, and thus merika was being misguided from the start ( implying she was acting off their guidance and not the elden beast. ) second is the fact that the elden beast is the living concept of order, so it would make sence that when it showed up it lead to the golden order, and would explain why horaloue was banished, he did not fit the ideals of the beast. im kinda thinking that merika was working for the erdtree and her conquests were to take runes from other gods and nations, after she finished this the elden beast showed up and destroyed the erdgree, i think this is when the elden ring was fully made and merika hid the rune of death to ensure the new entity could not harm her or her childrin. the age of order started and im guessing that why when one of her childrin died she shatered the elden ring, in a attempt to kill the elden beast.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

For the Elden Beast I'm of the mind that he landed really early and is probably the origin of the crucible and thus all like in TLB. Which I actually talked about in the first video I posted on this channel.

[@IrisDImtv]

Nice exposition

[@luckyowl6432]

Great video I think it would have benefited from a bit more of a script but otherwise no notes

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

You're definitely right. When I tried to make my first video at first I used a script but it sounded really artificial to me. But now I did realize just how slow my delivery is without a script. So I'll try to go back to scripting for my next video.

[@eazyelof4283]

Great timeline. I had been thinking recently that it kinda just doesnt make sense that the Golden Order is as old as the Erdtree itself. My questions about all this are.. why "Queen"? Only other examples of king/queen titles are for a god and their consort, i thought. I dont know for sure. I've also seen theories that Messmer and Melina are Radagon's kids with Marika from before Godfrey. I'm not sure what the details were tho. Have you heard that theory?

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

> Great timeline. I had been thinking recently that it kinda just doesnt make sense that the Golden Order is as old as the Erdtree itself. Thanks, the weird thing is I actually thought they were the same age for quite a while and before that I didn't even think about it that much. >My questions about all this are.. why "Queen"? Only other examples of king/queen titles are for a god and their consort, i thought. I dont know for sure. Actually, we do have non-god like queens. There's Rennala of course who was a carian queen and about 3-4 demi-human queens. I would assume the GEQ was just called like that by her followers or godskin apostles. Nothing really indicates she lead any kind of nation, the godskins seem almost more like a hidden faction that any kind of large country or culture. I mean you could argue maybe Marika tried to eradicate all evidence of them but then that just becomes pure speculation. We have the horsent culture and yet despite being despised and hidden by Marika in TLS there's lots of evidence of them left around. >I've also seen theories that Messmer and Melina are Radagon's kids with Marika from before Godfrey. I'm not sure what the details were tho. Have you heard that theory? I'm not sure if before Godfrey or if they were illegitimate children (or Marika secretly wed Radagon before) but I do think Messmer and Melina are the children of Marika and Radagon. I mean Radagon has got the signature red hair and even has the similar ost to Radagon. And then the DLC mentions that his sister is Melina. Another piece of evidence are the four butterfiles which are symbolic for four characters: Malenia, Melina, Messmer and Miquella. It doesn't represent the empyreans since Ranni doesn't have one. It can't be just for children of Marika since Godwyn, Morgott and Mogh are missing. So the only potential thing that could tie them all are the same parents.

[@eazyelof4283]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s interesting you recently thought about this too. I think we've all recognized how hazy the early history of the Erdtree is and for me the Minor Erdtree description is what really got me thinking the GO came later

[@RevanX77]

There are several implications and issues brought on by choosing to place the defeat of the GEQ and sealing of Destined Death after Godfrey's reign but before Radagon. First, it would mean that the GEQ was not a rival to Marika at the start of her reign, but that the Fingers chose another Empyrean to replace Marika after Godfrey was exiled, but after Marika succeeded in the conflict, somehow they accepted her rule. Second, it would mean that none of the Demigods were immortal before Radagon's reign, or at least not immortal due to Death being removed from the Elden Ring, and presumably the GEQ and Godskins were killing many demigods. Thirdly, and most importantly as it relates to the prior point, it would mean that somehow the GEQ was using Destined Death, despite the Rune of Death still being in the Elden Ring. This is the biggest problem, because I can't see how this could have happened, since it would mean that Marika lost possession of the Elden Ring and the Gloam Eyed Queen came into possession of it and used the Rune of Death's power within it. This seems like far too important and complicated of an event for us to have essentially no information about it, if we choose to put this conflict at that point on the timeline.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

You're bringing up some interesting points so thanks a lot. I think we can find answers for them that will fit the rest of the evidence we have. 1. All the other empyrans we know the identities of have actually been born after the birth of the Erdtree with two of them actually being born after Marika married Radagon - Miquella and Malenia. I also said I suspect that after Godfrey's banishment is when the GEQ was defeated. That would of course mean she could have been born and chosen as an empyrean much earlier. We just know it obviously couldn't have happened after her defeat. Though to be perfectly honest with the evidence we have I can only be really confident in the golden order being established after the attack on granssax, the war against the giants and Radahn's birth. After the it becomes the evidence becomes more vague (for example we don't know if tarnished was a term used before Godfrey's reign just in general for people who lost grace) and it could by anywhere from the end of Godfrey's reign and some time into Radagon's reign (obviously before the death of Godwyn). 2. Of course, that is true no matter what theory we accept. The demigods only became immortal after the GEQ was defeated. 3. I don't really believe we are ever told that the GEQ posessed the rune of death itself. She used blackflame which can still be used in-game even by us. It just can't slay gods anymore since the rune of death was removed from the elden ring. I do think there are still ways to make it work if assume she did have the rune of death itself, but then we'd be building assumptions on assumptions. We have to have proof she had the actual rune of death itself

[@RevanX77]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s 1. The issue I was raising with this point is that it would mean the Fingers betrayed and tried to usurp Marika, yet she continues working with them well into the future. 2. The problem there is that if the demigods weren't immortal prior to the age of the Golden Order, how is it so many of them were still alive and not dead? Messmer, Melina, Godwyn, and all the Carian kids at a minimum would have been born in the prior age, yet they didn't die of old age. 3. If removing the Rune of Death would have robbed the GEQ and Godskin Apostles of the true power of their black flame, and Marika had the Elden Ring at that time, then why would she have only removed Destined Death AFTER Maliketh defeated the Gloam Eyed Queen? Another facet to this is that the Godskins are not said to have slayed demigods, but GODS. At the time between Godfrey's exile and Radagon's ascension, Marika herself was the only God remaining in the Lands Between, which is a foundational principle of the Golden Order.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@RevanX77 1. Again, we already have examples of this with Renni, Miquella and Malenia. Let's also remember that Ranni was born before Radagon became Elden Lord. So if the GEQ as an empyrean is an issue you first have to answer why the others aren't. I'll also add that one way to think about empyreans is as princes, princesses or other candidates to a throne. Just because you are supposed to take over the throne after your predecessor, that doesn't mean you have to betray them or kill them as fast as you can. Sure, it would happend, but sometimes they would just wait until the current Queen/King would die. 2. Because they weren't killed. I mean we know there definitely were a lot more demigods than we know. Both Bernahl and Vyke had to kill two demigods each that we don't know of. We have all the demigods in the walking mausoleums. Remember that Godrick isn't a child of Marika or Radagon, they're implied to be some distant child of Godwyn. So there definitely were other lesser demigods we don't know of. As for the age of the demigods first of all we have no idea how long Godfrey's reign was. Secondly I still think even with the rune of death inside the elden ring godhood is a state that gives you huge power and perhaps prolonged life as well. Remember that both Ranni talks about a 1000-year voyage, we used to think that was her voyage to take away the Elden Ring but then Miquella used the same term. This suggests it's probably supposed to be a metaphor for their rule. Now 1000 years is a long time, but it's not eternity. I think Marika sort of broke this rule by confining destined death. That's why she becomes Marika the "Eternal". 3. So that she could kill her. I think this is one of the reasons in general she didn't do it immediately (of couse she might have not known how to do it as well at first, or might have not felt the need). She needed the rune of death to be inside the elden ring so she could kill all her enemies. Imagine you have a god mode cheat but it works for everyone equally. In that case you first want to kill every enemy and only after that actually activate the cheat code. I think the DLC also brings some insight into this. Miquella becomes a god not only when Marika already is one but it's implied there were many different god-like beings in hornsent society. Miquella also shows us you can be a god without being a vessel of the elden ring. This also makes sense in context of why one of the principles of the golden order is Marika being the one true god. If that was an established principle at that moment doesn't it suggest it wasn't true before? For the last part could you show me the specific item description which mentions what gods the godskin apostles killed? We'll take it from there.

[@RevanX77]

@@space_mage_seij-q3s 1. In their cases, they were simply candidates who were capable of replacing Marika. Meanwhile the GEQ would have actually fought a war against Marika, supported by the Fingers. As it is there's no evidence the Fingers support anything any of the three Empyreans are doing, in fact with Ranni just the opposite is true. 2. I'm not saying there can't be more demigods than we know of. But for one thing, Godwyn explicitly being the "first of the demigods to die" suggests that in history, before him, none had died. It's very strange to think of all of Godfrey's conquests being within a small part of one lifespan, then the Golden Order being eons. 3.Then why not just remove the Rune of Death to make the Godskins lose their power, capture the GEQ, and then use the RoD again to kill her...? We don't even know the GEQ was killed, actually. Every item relating to the Godskins only references them killing Gods. The Scouring Black-Flame, Godskin Apostle/Noble robes, and Godslayer's Greatsword (by virtue of it's name), all talk about Gods, never demigods, just Gods. This is another case where Godwyn being "the first demigod to die" would also suggest that the Godskins weren't killing Marika's children.

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

@@RevanX77 1. We know the GEQ was an empyrean chosen by the fingers, so just like Malenia, Miquella, Ranni. But we don't know what her exact relationship with her fingers was. Did they support her all the way, did she have to kill them like Ranni, did the fingers actually betray her? Maybe the fingers compete with each other? We also don't even know if the confrontation between Marika and the GEQ was an all out war. The GEQ could have lead an undercover operation, more akin to the knight of the black knives and Marika found out about it and defeated her or the operation was just unsuccesfull. In fact I would lean more towards it being an event less known to the public since we don't hear of any big event like this while we clearly get to know about the crusade, liurnian wars, war against the giants attack of the dragons on Leyndell etc. We even hear of more ancient conflicts like Bayle's attack on Placidusax or the war between the giants and dragons. Hell, for all we know the GEQ might have been an an ally or servant of Marika led the apostles as her task force Marika betrayed her or thought she was too dangerous. The actual info we get on GEQ really is that vague. 2. Well, there are a few things here. First of all these words are told to us by Rogier who isn't an objective narrator like the item descriptions. He clearly doesn't know everything since he even does need us to help uncover the truth about Ranni which he didn't know. The other is that it might just be possible that the GEQ and godskin apostles didn't actually kill any demigods. They might have failed or that was never their aim. We know the blackflame could kill gods and I would assume this is a more general thing, it still could kill demigods as well. I mean even the normal blackflame we use can kill anything ranging from demihumans to drakes so it's not like it can only kill gods, but it did have that ability. But ultimately we don't know if any gods were killed. We don't have even a mention of a single god killed by them. But as the DLC suggests before Marika finished her conquest and before the establishment of the golden order there might have very well been many other gods. I mean even the giants each had the fell god in their stomache. 3. It's true we don't know if she was killed. We also only know the order of events but we don't even know if the GEQ needed to be killed for the rune of death to be sealed. It very well might have been that she killed her because of whatever conflict she had with her. Then she realized this blackflame thing is too dangerous and a threat to her and her children and tried to find a way to seal its power. This realization might have been what lead to sealing the power of the rune of death itself. But again all of this is just an assumption. In general the reason I made the video is to kind of rewind my thinking as to what happened. I actually really like the idea before the DLC came out that the GEQ was the previous vessel of the Elden RIng and possibly the god of Placidusax. But then with this video I tried to kind of restart my train of thought and see what the actual timeline tells us. It still does leave us with lots of options for who she was but I think it does suggest it happened a bit later than I initally thought.

[@spacecowboy7193]

This is so good. Lore videos lately have been so bad. Just sentences in a row with no connection or logic. I really like that you show your work and then make logical connections. Hope you make more vids.

[@muramasa870]

Gloam eyed queen is Metyr, mother of fingers btw. The god slayers seal and the sigil when you cast blackflame looks like Metyr's face. And she is the queen of Placidusax

[@space_mage_seij-q3s]

I definitely heard of this theory. But I don't think it really sticks. The GEQ was an empyrean so she would've been chosen by the fingers. Metyr was literally the mother of fingers. I also have a rather hard time imagining Metyr using a sword. Also I feel like if Maliketh attacked Metyr herself then she'd definitely loose any kind of support from the fingers for all time practically. I think there might be ways to tie to the two together. Since I agree that the similarity between the blackflame sigil and Metyr's face is quite curious. Maybe it just suggests that the fingers taught Melina how to use the blackflame.

[@DustDemonTwilight]

nah i doubt Metyr is GEQ however, there has to be some connection between metyr and whoever the GEQ is

[@Nope-ity-nope-nope]

Metyr is mother of all two fingers AND she was an empyrean chosen by her own two fingers ( her kid )? Okey dokey!

[@Nope-ity-nope-nope]

If Marika is the GEQ, the queen of death, that might be pretty hot to the death loving wrestler Horah Loux.