Which is Correct? - or - ?

[@vlogbrothers]

Hi. Did you know that I am a semi (hyphen) secret livestreamer? I've been signing on stream, playing FIFA, and engaging in other shenanigans (em dash) all to raise money for AFC Wimbledon's playing budget. The hope is that we'll be able to buy a new player in January just with livestreaming money. It's a good vibe! youtube.com/@johnschannel1007. See you there later today! (hyphen)John

[@Symphing12]

What's the difference between an em dash and a quote dash?

[@DKDexter999]

Is it a typo you've written "signing" and not "singing"?

[@mich8050]

Speaking of Afc Wimbledon, I do hope next week's video will be charting your experience at the Derby against that franchise Back to back home victories would be brilliant 🎉

[@tetlowgm]

@@DKDexter999 Nope, he's been signing.

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

likewise, be precise with bodies of water a FLEUVE is no mere river - the mississippi, the nile, the saint-lawrence are fleuves, not rivers!

[@ruleofhalves]

Please God let this be the first in a series on complex grammar rules in which we delve deeper and deeper into the weeds of usage

[@GeneralNickles]

I don't think it's even possible to get deeper than this. This is some absolutely nonsensical BS that some rich people made up a millennium ago to have yet another thing to lord over the uneducated poor people.

[@nathanbickel4362]

+

[@girlofanimation]

I would love a grammar series.

[@woodfur00]

+

[@blairhoughton7918]

It's legal in many states now.

[@johnchessant3012]

My favorite use of the en-dash is in the name of one of the Millennium Prize problems in math: the Birch-Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture (named after two individuals, not three: Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer)

[@jkubed95]

1:10 Parentheses makes the information look like additional context worth noting-the em dash makes it clear that the information is so vitally important that you had to interrupt yourself to say it.

[@Neli42]

That's basically what I was taught: Use to set the information out as more important and parentheses to de-emphasize it.

[@dragonflies6793]

+

[@GeneralNickles]

Literally not one word of what you just said is the least bit true. In fact, the exact opposite is true. When you use parentheses, it looks like you're adding vital information that didn't fit into the structure of the sentence or paragraph that it's interrupting. When you use dashes, it looks like you're an idiot that doesn't know how to use parentheses. The only instance that doesn't follow this rule is when a dash is used to indicate that a spoken word was interrupted.

[@GeneralNickles]

​@@Neli42whoever taught you that was a moron and you should never follow anything they say.

[@whatcanidooo]

⁠@@GeneralNickles a lil harsh for a vlogbrothers video. It’s a stylistic choice, neither makes anyone look like an idiot

[@prongs4137]

3:55 This is where author John shines through.

[@abdullahenani9670]

Life lesson: Everything has multitudes, even dashes.

[@Idefilms]

instead of +++ this time I'll put --- but it means the same thing

[@dannywhite648]

imagine dashes complexly;

[@FreekaPista]

Consider the en-dash

[@astrocoastalprocessor]

maybe the real multitudes were the multitudes of multitudes we met and were along the way

[@ciaranmyers792]

Some multitudes are longer-or shorter-than others.

[@FinleyHills]

It is worth noting that in British English, publishers typically used spaced en-dashes to accomplish all that an em-dash is used for in American English. For example: "The man - having removed his shoes - entered the house", would be used in a British-published book, whereas "The man-having removed his shoes-entered the house" would be used in an American-published book. I myself favour the British English use of en-dashes, but use em-dashes to express interrupted sentences, be they narrative or dialogue.

[@Flopsaurus]

Yes! The British way of doing this looks so much nicer! I hate the un-spaced version.

[@MH_Binky]

I so rarely encountered the em-dash in this context that I figured it was an oddly-specific personal preference; I'd never considered that it was one of those classic US/UK type deals. I definitely prefer it this way too - the unspaced em-dash implies contiguation between either side (like a hyphenated compound word), whereas the spaced en-dash has a much stronger feeling of separation.

[@inkblot4]

Agreed!

[@beth.watson]

So that's why I was bothered by the unspaced dashes! I think I've noticed it - and been irritated - before, but I think that was while reading Faulkner (as if it wasn't irritating to read anyway). I thought it was an old-timey publishing thing, but now I know! (I'm South African: we mostly consume British print media and American film media)

[@acookie7548]

i like the american version 👉🏻👈🏻 maybe i just grew up on it??? well now i know how to fake being american and being british thank u vm

[@Anincompletebookshelf]

“Language doesn’t exist to oppress us - it exists to promote the clarity of expression.” Loved this, thanks John

[@erinmcdonald7781]

Perfectly punctuated! ✊

[@crakkbone]

It looks awful.

[@the_crypter]

@@crakkbone Alright Jonathan Swift

[@CWorgen5732]

Weird. I read this just as he said it.

[@yurisei6732]

Your need for clear expression infringes on my right not to be understood.

[@sMiLeS1325]

Em Dashes are literally my favorite punctuation mark ever. I have the copy editor's symbol for inserting an em dash tattooed on me. This video is a salve for the atrocious day at work I had. Thank you!

[@acookie7548]

actually a great tat idea

[@twojuiceman]

JRR Tolkien, author of The Lord of the Rings, had many disputes with his publisher about his use of hyphens in compound words. Written English from the previous centuries used more hyphenated compound words than is common today, such as "wood-fire" or "key-hole", but Tolkien was much more prolific with his hyphenization than even was common at the time. He wrote words such as under-hill, mountain-side, rock-shadows, goblin-cities, hobbit-girls, riddle-game, dragon-gold, elf-friend, forest-gloom, lake-man, wolf-ally, and raven-messenger. The essay _Hyphens as Sub-Lexical Morphemes in The Hobbit,_ by the illustrious Sparrow Alden, includes a graph charting the use of hyphens throughout the book. The essay theorizes that many of the unusual or seemingly-out-of-place hyphenated words in Tolkien's writing represent things or concepts that would have had a dedicated single-word name in one of Tolkien's invented languages, but for which no such word exists in English - thus the hyphenization. Two examples are the names of the swords "Glamdring" and "Orcrist" - both one-word names - which Elrond translates as "Foe-Hammer" and "Goblin-Cleaver" respectively.

[@ruolbu]

as a German, I do enjoy the liberal usage of compound words

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@ruolbuNahuatl is the GOAT.

[@f0ren51c5candy]

Hunter pfp!!!

[@twojuiceman]

@@f0ren51c5candy yes! Good eye

[@lararys7765]

hobbit-girl? Where was this used?

[@Dreg-dd4nq]

“Language doesn’t exist to oppress us-it exists to promote clarity of expression” is a beautiful quote that I love

[@jsos9434]

As a designer, the trick I use when I need to remember whether to use an En or Em dash is I look it up every single time and then promptly forget for the next time.

[@dagnolia6004]

poetry!

[@psuedonym9999]

A pornbot stole your comment and got way more likes, but oddly enough, I'm seeing your comment above the bot's.

[@jsos9434]

@@psuedonym9999 sigh yet another reason I wish I were a porn bot. :(

[@MinurielLai]

+++

[@bethjantz7175]

I absolutely LOVE hearing John geek out about writing. Partially because I'm a grammar nerd too, but also because he so rarely talks about being a writer and it is a huge part of who he is. This warmed my heart.

[@hopehaswings388]

My favorite dash is the tragically beautiful en dash placed between the birth and death dates on headstones and in obituaries. One bit of punctuation that represents an entire human existence. They can tell some of the very saddest stories or some of the most triumphant depending on the context and amount of time between the first and second date.

[@saltiestsiren]

If someone uses a hyphen does it mean their life was short/boring/uneventful? 😂

[@hopehaswings388]

@@saltiestsiren nah it means they are bad at grammar (I'm trash at grammar if you couldn't tell by the incomplete sentence just chilling in my above comment. My thoughts move faster than my need for proper grammar.)

[@tabularasa]

Love this comment, hadn't really considered this before. An entire human existence in one little line

[@Billionth_Kevin]

@@hopehaswings388 I think grammar is bad at grammar if the arbitrary length of a horizontal line has different meanings. Or at least one of those things the self righteous simpletons can feel better about. Nothing personal, I work in a job where my all stuff gets endlessly reviewed and people are so quick to point out grammar and miss my functional mistakes. Not that I can blame them, reviewing sucks and I only pretend to do it when required (which is all the time). Don't worry, airplanes are still the safest form of travel

[@Fs3i]

John might be reading this comment with a minimal bit of annoyance of not having thought of this himself

[@helmoh]

I've read somewhere recently that if the world doesn't feel enchanted-you're not paying attention. You paying attention to such grammar details brings out the magic in it.

[@jordanclark1200]

I used to use dashes all the time, but I had an English teacher in high school who told me they were “unprofessional”. I have avoided using them ever since. I now feel fully vindicated and will go back to using them freely. Thank you John.

[@drewlehmann90]

Now I see you’ve put a period outside of quotes. I remember learning there were rules whether the period goes within or without the quotes, but I have forgotten them and simply defaulted to periods within as I prefer the look. Your use has made me reconsider whether mine was the best choice.

[@EccentricFanboy]

@@drewlehmann90 I think whether periods are supposed to go in or out of quotes depends on the style guide you use or the region you are in-I think putting it outside of quotes is a British English thing.

[@poetryflynn3712]

​@@EccentricFanboyIn my American college they taught you to do this as the difference between a quoted question and a question using quotes. I don't know why they taught you this despite the fact nearly every other style guide just chooses one or the other.

[@jordanclark1200]

@@drewlehmann90 To my understanding, the period would go outside of the quotes in this situation.

[@d_dave7200]

​@@poetryflynn3712 It's actually not one or the other in British English. For us it depends on what you're quoting. Is the punctuation part of the quotation? Or only part of the outside sentence? For example, full sentences of dialogue will have the punctuation inside the quotation marks: Jordan said, "I used to use dashes all the time." But the example in the original comment is correct in British style guides, because they're quoting just the word "unprofessional".

[@tonyleukering8832]

"Do I love it that we're getting into the weeds here?" Glory! As for em-dashes setting off an aside or explanation, I think they stand out more, make it more obvious that the text between dashes is not truly part of the sentence but provides critical clarifying or explanatory text. I'm with you all the way!

[@Tim3.14]

The em dash is longer than the en dash, but longest of all is the semicolon - often called the "small intestine" - which when removed from the abdominal cavity can be unfurled up to a length of 18 feet.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

A colon can also be used to express disdain because it is full of… what is usually used for disdain when something or someone is full of it.

[@WillHirschUK]

Sir, please put it back in there.

[@atomsofstardust]

Am I missing a great joke here, or what’s going on? Since when has a semicolon (this ;) become longer than dashes?

[@pengindoramu]

Semi(colon) taken literally

[@haloweenparty10000]

@@atomsofstardust Yes you are missing a great joke here. The joke is that it sounds like they're talking about the punctuation when in fact they're using "semicolon" as another name for the small intestine - which is, in fact, longer than all the dashes.

[@user-uy8xf9tm5h]

Where was this discussion in my english classes???? Seriously how am I only learning about this now!?! 🤷‍♀️ I needed to know this 25 years ago! 🤦‍♀️

[@AliceYobby]

it was probably a lesson on a day you missed

[@TyDreacon]

Thing about em-dashes is that the parts feel connected and equal. With a colon, there's a sense of superiority in the first clause. With parentheses, there's a sense of unimportance in the parenthetical. Em-dashes say, "this is off the beaten path, but still as important as everything else." Honourable mention to the footnote, though, just for the ability to subvert expectations in reading structure while also inducing flashbacks to college years.

[@UnluckyDiamond]

Yes exactly!

[@seana5942]

I love this

[@GeneralNickles]

Where the hell are you getting this "unimportance" nonsense about parentheses? The entire point of parentheses is to add important information that doesn't fit into the sentence they're interrupting. Context or other information that the reader absolutely needs in order to properly understand what's being said.

[@linkly9272]

@@GeneralNickles From the perspective of the writer--yes. From the perspective of the reader, however, the parenthesis often can have an association with some form of 'lesser information.' I'm not sure what is/are the exact reason(s) for this, but it's a connotation that exists in many peoples' minds (including my own).

[@GeneralNickles]

@@linkly9272 many people's minds are wrong and they need to correct this behavior. Words and punctuation have definitive meanings. Interpreting something so horribly incorrectly only serves to breed confusion and misunderstanding.

[@GoodasCoffee]

02:24... Well said

[@soup3.14]

John pulling out the questions I’ve had in the deep recesses of my brain for years.

[@faizanquraishi4126]

Deep-recesses

[@admkbldwn]

TIL acclaimed author John Green shares my deep appreciation of the em dash

[@bgclo]

As the reader, I like the use of em dashes because, visually, it makes it seem more conversational, showing pauses in our natural speech patterns just a bit better than using parentheses.

[@KarenPuzzles]

Bringing me back to my early days of typography KZbin. If anyone wants to learn more about punctuation, I recommend the book Shady Characters by Keith Houston.

[@adamkarnbrink1210]

It's so nice to see you in these comment sections, and write "DFTBA" in the dust of your puzzles :) Your collab with John was very enjoyable!

[@azuradawn5683]

Karen!!! It's so lovely to see you here. Hope your practice for Worlds is going well!! I'll absolutely be looking for that book!

[@OlivierLafleur]

"Language doesn't exist to oppress us, it exist to promote the clarity of expression"

[@tarttooth6022]

This channel could turn into Grammar with John-I for one would be here for it.

[@erinmcdonald7781]

Truth! I find myself now strangely excited by grammar and its crafty uses. 😸

[@nanszoo3092]

I have been using dashes a lot in my comments recently - usually with a space on either side-but now I see that I have been misusing it, so I will endeavor to learn from this video and use the emdash in the future. I would also love to learn more about how to use proper grammar from John in the future - for example, what is the deal with me/I at the end of sentences? I never can seem to find a straight answer on this usage.

[@bendubz9000]

Someone needs to feel the void Tom Scott left behind!

[@megantregler]

How am I, a 40+ year-old recreational writer, just hearing about Em and En dashes? How? I WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL! I've used dashes for decades and had no idea until this video that there were different kinds, with different purposes. I am shooketh.

[@LiquorWithJazz]

“Language doesn’t exist to oppress us,” is the most freeing thing I’ve herd today.

[@Yewtewba]

I was never aware of this issue, never cared, and still don't, but passionate people being passionate is a great thing.

[@elainafaust3717]

John, I'm a technical writer and editor who has this type of discussion every day as part of my work. I will tell you, for what it's worth from another corner of the writing world, that I and most of my colleagues share your love of em dashes. As a reader, I find compelling use of punctuation one of the most satisfying elements of a writer's style.

[@natalieelskamp03]

I’m curious - what kind of technical writing do you do?

[@elainafaust3717]

@@natalieelskamp03 I work in aviation now. In general (like throughout my career) I've mostly worked with engineers. Some stuff for the public (like brochures and user manuals) and some not (like reports and journal articles).

[@GreatPastaHeist]

I am a hobbiest bookinder, typesetter, and writer, and you have just explained en dashes in a way that finally gets me to remember what they're used for beyond "something to do with years?" I loved this in the weeds discussion, its a very happy place to be.

[@SideshowCris]

As a writer who is also obsessed with em- and en-dashes to the point where I’ve been lovingly made fun of about it by colleagues, editors, and readers, I have never felt more in community with you as I do in this moment. Thank you for having the bravery to take such a stand. It makes me feel one way and one way only- proud to be a nerdfighter.

[@lonestarr1490]

The only punctuation I'm obsessed with are the questionable exclamation mark (!?) and the exclamatable question mark (?!). The first one marks a statement that is meant to be understood as a question, while the second one signals a (grammatical) question you do not really expect or want an answer for.

[@crediblesalamander8056]

my favorite-the one true punctuation mark-is the interrobang ‽ it even sounds cool.

[@lonestarr1490]

​@@crediblesalamander8056 Its name is about the only thing it has going for itself. As a punctuation, it's way too ambivalent. I mean, what does it signal? A question? A statement? A questionable statement? There's no consensus! That's not how punctuation is supposed to work.

[@nathanbickel4362]

I couldn't agree more with op

[@ValueOfJoy]

+

[@joelfabes]

This is my favourite John Green video because like all John Green videos it both delights and informs me-but in the highest fashion.

[@Quixotic1018]

I will be citing this in an email to be sent to all co-workers who called me mad.

[@GeneralNickles]

Those coworkers are absolutely correct.

[@lethargogpeterson4083]

Cool. Problem solved, then!

[@roguegreyjedi]

For me, asides are generally best set off with commas -- unless there is a change of subject (or a very dramatic pause). But that's just another reason the Machine will be able to differentiate our writing!

[@MicaelCalmet84]

I have been watching your videos for over a decade, never commented... but this video is perfect.

[@vlogbrothers]

Thanks :) -John

[@karlkastor]

3:00 I've always liked the way this ambiguity is solved in German: New-York-Stil or Civil-War-Ära. It makes it unambiguously clear what belongs to the whole compound noun.

[@Username_loading_now]

As a print editor who spends an inordinate amount of time in the weeds of grammar, I love this so much! It's hard to make something so nuanced and dry entertaining, but this was delightful!

[@KatieRomrell]

As a high school English teacher, I cannot tell you how excited I am to show this video when my students get to em-dashes. 😍

[@richardparadox163]

I actually knew everything in this video except for the en dash being used for compound hyphenates like New York-style pizza, which is actually something I’ve been struggling with in my recent day-to-day textual communication.

[@GeneralNickles]

No you haven't. Literally no one has ever struggled with this in any context, especially not every day texting writing.

[@boyhenry1]

1:18 parenthesis feel more optional than dashes for some reason

[@spectrumspectre]

Oh my gosh, I was literally *just* editing my friend's writing when I got the notification for this. They keep using hyphens instead of em dashes and it has been driving me up the WALL

[@ruolbu]

genuine question. Is that just aesthetic or does it convey a different meaning? Cos I don't even know how to type anything other than ‐

[@WillHirschUK]

@@ruolbu strictly speaking, "hyphen" refers to the specific meaning conveyed, where it joins words or fragments of words. The "-" is technically a "hyphen-minus" in that its purpose is designated as use _either_ as a hyphen or as a minus sign, though not a dash. I think you'd be hard-pressed to create confusion by using a hyphen-minus in place of a dash, so in that respect it is very much aesthetic - but as is so often the case in language, little aesthetic hints about your meaning can make the world of difference to how much effort it is to read and understand. And there's no great way to type them quickly (except on the Android keyboard where you can long-press the hyphen-minus key). When I need a dash, I literally Google "en dash" or "em dash" and copy and paste from the results.

[@Ajfmaizy]

@@WillHirschUK "When I need a dash, I literally Google "en dash" or "em dash" and copy and paste from the results." I do this too sometimes -- but also in my word processor, I've set it up so that doing a double en dash (or is it hyphen) auto-transforms into an em dash. Handy tip. I believe it's also correct to just to two en dashes in place of an em dash -- which I've done here; sometimes it looks ok, sometimes it looks silly, depending on font size!

[@Akbonkster]

@@WillHirschUK this explains why I couldn’t figure the em dash for my comment. I say after we beat TB we standardize the em dash to keyboards.

[@FinneasJedidiah]

​@@WillHirschUK if you can have a numpad on your keyboard try alt key: "alt + 0, 1, 5, 1" and "alt + 0, 1, 5, 0". There are a lot of really useful alt-keys, but I can never remember very many at a time. The other one I remember is the degree symbol, which is 'alt' 248.

[@x--.]

THANK YOU! Thank you, Mr. Green. I love the dash - more than I ought - and to find another appreciator of the punctuation that I often feel guilty using (what would my teachers think?) is a delight that brings me great-oh so great, joy.

[@jwa007]

I myself have a fondness for semicolons; I use them whenever I can.

[@BbGun-lw5vi]

I hate them with a passion. They stick out so much and interrupt the flow.

[@GeneralNickles]

Why? They're entirely pointless. They have no right to exist.

[@icecream1773]

The previous comment is bait

[@GeneralNickles]

@@icecream1773 you're bait.

[@iiwi758]

​@@BbGun-lw5vi I don't like how they look, but sometimes they're the only thing that feels right. I know I could use a period like @GeneralNickles did, but that often makes the thoughts seem too disconected. It just feels right to use them, so I can't give them up.

[@Kagedtiger]

John, from one writer to another-I'm not sure if I've ever agreed with one of your videos more than this. (FWIW I found my love of dashes mostly after forcibly weaning myself off of the semicolon.)

[@Akbonkster]

There’s a better flow visually with a dash than parentheses as well. -relevant tidbit vs (Context) Watching this I can’t help but think back to being an undiagnosed ADHD kid who used a lot of parentheses (dare I say to a diagnosable degree) to express my continuously compounding thoughts. The notes I got from teachers were about doing it less -when I could’ve used a lesson on doing it gooder.

[@GeneralNickles]

Your teachers were wrong. Parentheses are FAR superior to dashes. Any instance where you would use a dash, and a parentheses would also be appropriate, you should ALWAYS use parentheses. Dashes look amateurish and like the author doesn't know what parentheses are.

[@AUnicorn666]

@@GeneralNicklesmaybe in your opinion yes but not all may agree, personally I think the author should use whatever they want

[@Akbonkster]

@@AUnicorn666 Seeing as the other commentor misinterpreted what I said about not being taught to mean that I had so they could rush in with the correction I’d guess they suffer from a sever case of ‘needing to be right.’ While it’s annoying to encounter these indignant types online, I allow myself some solace knowing they have to live the rest of their lives as themselves.

[@tobiastzfanya3949]

This video has taken me on an emotional rollercoaster. First consternation at the mention of using em dashes while the example text on the screen seems to use en dashes; then disagreement with the amount em dashes should be used-finally delight at learning (at long last!) the purpose of the en dash. I was not prepared for so much excitement tonight.

[@cara5ara]

welcome back em dash video ❤

[@DaffyDaffyDaffy33322]

This feels like a perfect video. The timing is on point. The humor is great. It's not topical, it's timeless. The captions line up with the spoken word including the intended punctuation. The captions talk about themselves and I think that's beautiful.

[@christopherbrand5360]

Most people don’t even hyphenate their compound modifiers. Now I’m excited about em and en dashing

[@TrateMusic]

You have reignited my shared love of these dashes-and helped define them clearly so I can start using them correctly and frequently! Thanks John!

[@SkyGirl5]

"God I love it so much when we are in the weeds of grammar" 😂😂 Love the enthusiasm John!

[@damdamfino]

Aw I was hoping John would chime in on the contentious “space or no space around the emdash” discourse

[@ubiquitous_phd4243]

Organic chemists really love the n-dash (sic). We use it when talking about chemical bonds (e.g. carbon-fluorine bond or C-F), and I just started using it nearly everywhere because I find it vastly superior (aesthetically) to a hyphen.

[@jenshillingburg5820]

I am WITH you on em dashes! They are also my preferred punctuation for so many instances. Thanks for explaining en dashes so that I can love them too.

[@sepp_gw]

You know those moments that you get enlightened to something you didn't know that you didn't know? I just had one of those.

[@GeneralNickles]

You know those moments when you're told about something so utterly nonsensical and pointless that you say "no damn wonder I didn't know about this. Why would anyone care this much about this?" I just had 4 minutes and 13 seconds of that.

[@sepp_gw]

@@GeneralNickles The way I see it, something is only truly pointless if no one cares about it. It would seem John’s got this one pretty well locked in lol

[@psuedonym9999]

@GeneralNickles nobody forced you to watch this video

[@jfa849]

Love seeing the passion about grammar, especially from a published author.

[@Smidgenism]

I learned something new about my beloved en-dash! Thanks! Also I am constantly writing out & correcting date and time ranges at my workplace so you calling the en-dash rare was a real "your experiences are not universal" moment for me

[@thelocalsage]

Thank you for this John I’ve been writing a personal essay hoping to submit to a journal and just yesterday a blanket of dread descended upon me as I considered that maybe I’ve been using far too many em dashes-you’ve genuinely assuaged my anxieties on the matter.

[@lundylow]

3:18 ...Endashes and hyphens are different? I've a lot of rethinking to do. I was always insistent that it should be New-York-style pizza, rules be damned.

[@Kane0123]

Not sure why we bother with the “New York style” part… it’s just pizza. The other kind (as Jon Stewart says) is just an above ground swimming pool for rats.

[@Nathaniel.21]

I have always written it as "New York style pizza". No hyphens or dashes needed.

[@psuedonym9999]

@Nathaniel.21 pizza from New York that styles you See also: xkcd 37 - Hyphen

[@Barrillel]

​@@Kane0123Chicago-style fits that definition, but don't forget, Detroit-style exists too and most definitely isn't a swimming pool for rats.

[@cp2lgy]

I LOVE this so much! When writing online courses as an Instructional Designer in Indianapolis, our QA editor's greatest pet peeve were the misuse of en and em dashes with hyphens. She would go on actual rampages about it.

[@GeneralNickles]

She needs therapy. (And clearly needs more work too. If she has time to care about something so utterly inconsequential, then she clearly isn't working hard enough.) There is literally no reason for any dash besides a hyphen to even exist, much less anyone actually care about them. Tell her to find more important things to rampage about.

[@drmathochist06]

En dashes are also used instead of em dashes in the same sorts of parenthetical contexts, but where an em dash goes directly between the words on either side, an en dash is set off from each by spaces, which allows automatic type-flowing algorithms to handle them better at line breaks!

[@benwaardenburg]

I remember early on in my graphic design career reading a book called "Know Your Onions", which is a book about small things that make your life easier in the design space and one section was dedicated to dashes, where and how to use them properly. I think I have been using en dashes to separate dates now that I even hold the dash button on my phone when using it because I too, love me a slighter longer dash.

[@faizanquraishi4126]

An em dash is an overindulgent comma- you save it up for when you feel like treating yourself to something special

[@eliontheinternet3298]

3:28 “immediately” might be a bit strong here 😂

[@BarginsGalore]

yeah there’s no way i would notice a difference in those on a page

[@systemG3000]

John, your episode reviewing Sycamore trees has helped me remember what's important two separate times. Maybe this isn't the best place to communicate that, but I just remembered and wanted to thank you. Thanks for making that episode in particular! (for anyone curious, it was a review of sycamore trees on "the Anthropocene reviewed")

[@brytfire]

“On Dasher, on-“ well, you get the idea. I love to get my dash on!! 😁 Now I must dash- no apologies!!

[@LuminantLion]

Man, Hamilton would've hit way different if Angelica said- "In a letter I received from you two weeks ago I noticed an em dash in the middle of a phrase It changed the meaning, did you intend this? One stroke and you've consumed my waking days It says "My dearest-Angelica" With an em dash after dearest You've written "My dearest-Angelica""

[@justgraceanne]

I thought I was losing my mind because I didn't initially click on the notification and it DISAPPEARED. And I love Em Dashes 😭 💕 I'm glad the video still exists, even if you did need to edit

[@sarahvnyc]

Same! I was so excited to watch it and was briefly devastated.

[@micheleford8359]

I'm so curious... What was the mistake?

[@ginamarie7178]

John, you don't know me, and yet-you know me.

[@zyaicob]

2:04 he's a hater but that's bars

[@lisawalsh6822]

Practically manic with the wit of grammar. This is a beautiful frenzy. Glad you are feeling better John.

[@Kellen_Quigley]

Newspaper editor here. In my freshmen journalism class in college, my professor told us to always use em dashes when writing because people don't speak in parentheses or semicolons and neither will newspapers. Obviously, people don't speak in em dashes either, but I get what he was going for. When reading print, an em dash is going to be a lot more effective at getting the point across than parentheses or semicolons will. There are exceptions, of course, but that's always stuck with me, and nearly all my stories since have included far more em dashes with only occasional parentheses and semicolons.

[@GeneralNickles]

Your professor was an idiot and you shouldn't listen to his advice. People absolutely DO speak with parentheses. They do it the exact same way that it would be read. By saying whatever they're saying, interrupting themselves to add the necessary information that would be in parentheses if it were written down, and then continuing what they were saying. Also, dashes are NOT more effective at conveying literally anything than parentheses. Dashes just clutter the page and make the writing look like the author doesn't know what parentheses are.

[@johnalling5334]

Dear god, what a great video to start the day. Pulled this up before bed, but did't watch until the morning and so glad for that

[@ShankarSivarajan]

Also when you have two different surnames, like the Kennedy-Nixon debate.

[@BSWVI]

Oh dear, I just realized that I hate the "connected em-dash"™ so much that I would spell it Kennedy/Nixon 😮

[@andrewrichens5733]

There’s always a unique form of enjoyment to listening to John going off on one of these tangents in the style of a very passionate high school-English teacher

[@TheMakomirocket]

...what was it though?

[@GeekyJustin]

Of all your excellent videos, John-and there are many-this one makes me the happiest.😄

[@Chris_and_Cory]

A video about my favorite punctuation - I've never clicked faster

[@iwontliveinfear]

I love other people who have a favorite punctuation. Mine is the interrobang ‽ .

[@erinmcdonald7781]

@@iwontliveinfear I have never heard of this! Is it possible that there is a single character to express this?! I’m stoked! 😸

[@amycox5733]

@@iwontliveinfearI’ve never been able to make an interrobang - how do you make them!?

[@DiamondDepthYT]

​@amycox5733 on mobile, I just hold down ? on the keyboard to get ‽. Not sure how to do it on the desktop, though.

[@nicholasl.4330]

I watched this with closed captions on, and I appreciate the effort of adding the proper various horizontal lines

[@maleldil1]

Note that in the UK, the n-dash is preferred in all situations. While you don't add spaces around m-dashes, you'd do so with n-dashes. The Oxford Style Guide says, "m-dash: Do not use; use an n-dash instead" and "n-dash: Use in a pair in place of round brackets or commas, surrounded by spaces". The n-dash is also used for the purposes you highlighted. And yes, the calls them m- and n-dash, not em/en.

[@tisFrancesfault]

Style guides are just that; style guides. English is likely the least prescriptive language, and frankly, allows you to do-as-you-please.

[@erinmcdonald7781]

@@tisFrancesfault Reminds me of the discussion about the Pirates Code in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, when Jack Sparrow says they’re more like guidelines. English is ultimately a “pirate” language me hardies- Is it “hardies,” as in hardy, or “hearties,” as in hearty? A deep dive ensues-

[@nicknumber1512]

This is largely the convention in the Wikipedia Manual of Style (found at MOS:DASH) - either use spaced n-dashes or unspaced m-dashes. I tend to prefer the former.

[@Tiggs153]

That is an amazing phrase to remember "language doesn't exist to oppress us -- it exists to promote the clarity of expression". Thank you for that reminder! (And my personal default would have been to use a colon or comma there, but on a video about the dash, I have an inkling which way it was spoken)

[@Judymontel]

Ahhh, such a hopeful comment "you immediately realize (around the 3:33 mark) it's New York n-dash style pizza..." while (only speaking for myself) I had NO idea there were three such dashes - the hyphen, the n-dash and the m-dash. I'm bedazzled and totally out of my depth... sigh.

[@terpcj]

When I was first coerced into joining Facebook (tl;dr story that's boring before it starts), one of my first posts was to remind people that I will use em-dashes and ellipses more than many editors prefer/allow, but I know how to use them and I like them so Imma gonna use 'em. It's the small pleasures that make life truly savory. It's like adding MSG to life. (My most recent completed MSS apparently has 415 em-dashes.)

[@justlikeametaphor7291]

I like em dashes because they feel very conversational, it makes writing feel more like someone speaking to you or to eachother rather than something carefully edited- Even if it still is.

[@GeneralNickles]

No. No they don't. They make it look like the writer doesn't understand that much more appropriate punctuation marks exist, and these dashes are pointless and make the writing look like it was done by a 12 year old Tumblr user.

[@FISHD0G747]

I'm an ACT/SAT tutor who has taught many dozens of people how to properly use em-dashes, and absolutely love precise punctuation...and yet I never knew how to use en-dashes for attributive compounds. I always rewrite my sentence to avoid making them adjectival...this is groundbreaking, thanks for the info, no idea how I never came across it before

[@Chris_and_Cory]

Certain that we can all agree the person who named them "Em" and "En" dashes deserves a special slot in hell next to the person who named "Lisp" and "Dyslexia"

[@Ajfmaizy]

No it's great -- it describes the width of the dash. Do you have an alternative dash-naming-system in mind?

[@sarahvnyc]

I was told that the names come from the fact that the longer em dash is the width of an 'm' and the shorter en dash is the width of the narrower 'n'. Not sure what font, or if it was capital or lowercase, or if it's entirely apocryphal...

[@spindlymist]

There's actually a decent reason for the names. In a given font, the em and en dashes are approximately the same width as the M and N characters, respectively. I believe they were at one time defined that way, though that definition is considered obsolete. In modern usage, an "em" is a unit of length equal to the current point size (think 12pt, 16pt, etc.), and an em dash has a width of 1 em. By the way, the "em" is still alive and well in the digital age-it's one of the most commonly used units in CSS, the language that specifies how a webpage looks!

[@MartyFox]

“Hank - I will see you on Friday” is a sentence that not even John could add an emdash to - or could he?

[@erinkinsella91]

And the name for that phobia of long words

[@katbairwell]

This is the most accessible, to my dyslexic brain, that discussion of the different horizontal-line punctuation types in English that I've ever experienced. I feel like I could go forward and try to learn a bit more about them now, where I've honestly always been too intimidated previously. Things like dyslexia, and dyscalculia, can often connect folx (especially those around my age - about the same as Hank - and older) directly to a level of anxiety, and emotional distress, that those who haven't experienced them might expect. Sometimes, you find the right person, usually someone that loves a subject, and has a natural talent for sharing knowledge, and they give you a little bit of confidence to try stepping into the zone of discomfort of your particular disability, and that's a precious thing. Thank you John, for gifting me a little confidence today!

[@ianmcmanus955]

I'm an attorney and live for writing arguments. My favorite use for an Em dash is to use them to emphasize an important fact or legal principle. I basically use it like, "So you said this, but have you considered -- THIS EXTREMELY DAMNING COUNTERPOINT.

[@natalieelskamp03]

Honest question - is being a lawyer worth it? I’ve got a knack for writing, constructing arguments, and philosophical thinking and am considering law school. I want to be a mom, too. What’s the work-week like and what path did you take to get there?

[@natalieelskamp03]

I’m also very moved by organizations like the EJI. Just read Just Mercy and it stirs something deep within my soul.

[@flibbertygibbette]

I'm suddenly reminded that I got SO mad when my technical editor erroneously replaced ALL my em dashes with en dashes in my dissertation. For sure, a ridiculous thing to be absolutely furious about, but I wanted to throw things because I couldn't just go and search/replace all en dashes with em dashes. This is because-of course-I had used en dashes for their correct purposes! But then I realized with some horror that some of my en dashes had been replaced with hyphens. God that was an awful copyediting day. Anyway, thank you for this moment of punctuation appreciation! And venting, apparently!

[@silverandexact]

Oh my god that's a nightmare. Why would someone do that??

[@GeneralNickles]

You are literally the only person that has ever lived that would ever even think about caring about something so utterly inconsequential. You have way too much time on your hands. Also, just use parentheses. That's the correct way to do this.

[@mrdeanvincent]

​@@GeneralNickles "You have way too much time on your hands." - GeneralNickles, while on a rampage through this comment section to repeatedly make weak arguments on everyone else's comments.

[@GeneralNickles]

@@mrdeanvincent not my fault that so many people are so wrong about basic punctuation.

[@mrdeanvincent]

"Everybody but me is wrong!" - @@GeneralNickles

[@Apledore]

This pure expression of grammar joy just made my day.

[@AudioArcturia]

Simple solution: hyphen serves all functions, using only spaces before and after to discern its meaning. I used it at uni while studying for tech writing, and found it's just better for everyone: the reader, the writer, and just the world as a whole. ✌️

[@nathanbickel4362]

But... but... not to be a descriptivist, but that's wrong :(

[@foogod4237]

In my personal opinion, en-dashes vs. hyphens is primarily a stylistic detail, but em-dashes are not. Text which uses hyphens instead of em-dashes does not have the same feeling when read, and often does not convey the same emotional subtext. They are interchangeable from a purely technical function perspective, but much of the value of language isn't only about technical function. The viewpoint that they can all be replaced with hyphens just seems rather myopic, naive, and self-serving to me, frankly. Just because it's more _convenient_ for you as a writer doesn't actually make it better for everyone else.

[@Nathaniel.21]

@@foogod4237 I have never used an m-dash and can't remember the last time I even saw one in the wild. Good riddance I say. Their is no use for multiple horizontal lines in grammar.

[@nance1111]

"Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation" by Lynne Truss is a favorite around our house. You reminded me of why.

[@thatretrogamer3100]

Dashes are one of the ways Fitzgerald gives Gatsby that hypnotic rhythm

[@renocence]

Watching him geek out-at the end-was delightful.

[@marklee81]

3:41 Not grammar. Orthography. "Grammar Nazis" who can't tell the difference always stand out to me.

[@GaraksApprentice]

John, you are a dash-loving writer after my own heart, and this video is a delight.

[@AbbreviatedReviews]

The real issue wasn't that it was "Chicago style-pizza," it was that Chicago-style pizza isn't really pizza and had to be replaced with New York-style pizza.

[@silverandexact]

A+ comment

[@Idefilms]

Hahahaha amazing 😂

[@Idefilms]

Also, for what it's worth, the example is even better! And it's made clearer by the fact that he fully demonstrated that section through text-even though he probably just wanted to hide the fact that he's wearing a different shirt during that part 😄

[@applmak]

Is that what we're gonna do today? We're gonna fight?

[@stefflcus]

Is this a dig at the CMOS? This is a dig at the CMOS, innit.

[@Nowhalle]

Oh how I would watch a four hour long video about grammar taught by John Green. This was delightful!