Who Are Games Workshop Really Communicating To? | Warhammer

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

Rule changes just push casual players out. I gave up on 40k a couple of updates ago. It's too much, I'm not getting a game out of each update before I have to learn more changes.

[@ThePuritySEAL]

Thank you for this video, you help me a lot. In the last few months I lost all my motivation for 40K, except maybe Kill Team or Necromunda. Recently it feels like : - Campaign books : A Product goes there with a Named hero to Fight B product -> one of them wins and nothing really happens What the last thing that had real consequences ? The Fall of Cadia maybe.... ( The Borken Realms and the Wrath of the Everchosen were crisp on the Sigmar side tho) - The 6 detachment was cool initially, but after I've played them in many tournaments, they feel really strict, you can bring anything from your army in a detachment but if you do not bring the specified units then you gonna handicap yourself to the point, where it feels really off - The update with the cards are really good, but playing only matchplay is pretty meh after a time... - Every weapon is free is a big miss IMHO - Every game feels like a rush, can't immerse myself in the lore of the battle watching a duel of heros n stuff, even tho usually, I am the one who finishes on time and waiting for my opponent. - While in Kill Team, Necromunda, Warcry and Age of Sigmar you can get lighthearted fun matches even silly ones and sometimes that is the thing that you need. Sorry I got into a rant so I'll stop myself. Warhammer was cool because of the lore and the many ways to play it, but there were a shift and it feels more like a Metachasing when you either play by the certain type of army or lose. At least in 8th and 9th you had some flexibility to came up with interesting ideas and army compositions, but now its more like pick of the 6 type of detachment and thats your flexibility. TLDR: For me atleast 40k Lost its "essence", its still there somewhere, but its more like a rush then an enjoyable time with friends. Or am I jsut a Grumpy old man ?

[@PointyPaints]

I get you. Last night I taken my first step into properly learning 10th edition. And really enjoyed the game. I’m going to be doing a video later today about this old fart getting back into it. So hopefully you will get something from it, but thanks for the comment

[@ThePuritySEAL]

@@PointyPaints Thank you! I'm looking forward for the video :D

[@swampybwoy]

Necromunda is ace 🎉

[@aperson7552]

My clubs default used to be a fluffy game unless anyone actively said they wanted something highly competitive. Now it feels like the complete reverse, even for nominally "casual" guys who dont do tourneys I love the setting of 40k, but between the ever changing and unnecessarily complex rules, which still somehow always seem outdated at the same time, and that default competitive mindset, i am just increasingly driven to play non GW games.

[@lorgor4eva]

Personally, im just a casual gamer. I've been in & out of the hobby for 30+ years. I've got a complicated personal home life, so time off is precious to me that I've got to the point where, for me, personally, im playing HH & old world exclusively nowadays it goes at a pace more suited to me im just having fun now with my mates at my local club I couldnt be happier 😊.

[@seppbrandner]

Old world actually gets pretty rapid FAQ support 2.5 in 3 months! Just so far we haven't seen too many ballance changes.

[@palwinderdhillon8242]

It's proof they had a great system (albeit dated) and they threw the entire thing out for some e sport like crap

[@DecrepitGaming]

Thanks to tourney players that take that shit seriously. Their games are all about competitive play now. Old world for the win, that is a game designed for gamers and storytellers. Can't convince me otherwise. For the record, I love a lot of the AOS models and I will try to incorporate them. Also 40k is always floating around in my brain, although I would very reluctant to step into that system (again) mid edition

[@PointyPaints]

I’m stepping back in, been enjoying the hobby side of my marine army and want games with them. I’ll no longer be playing Heresy

[@DecrepitGaming]

@@PointyPaints Damn you lol. I will continue to look at 40k and make a decision on it. The thought's of only getting a few months out of a book would piss me right off though

[@PointyPaints]

@@DecrepitGaming we have 2 years lol

[@blakem1896]

I'm playing old world competitively.

[@DecrepitGaming]

@@blakem1896 I'm playing it competitively myself. A bad choice of words from me. I guess I'm just fed up with the word meta, and folks that can't have fun unless they're winning.

[@TheEmpiricalGuy]

This is 100% spot on, GW has completely lost sight of what these games are meant to be. In hindsight the decline started a few years back but it really fell off a cliff with the launch of 40k 10th edition. I've played since the middle of 2nd, so I've been through a fair few editions and overhauls and generally think each one has been an improvement on the last, up until 10th which has pretty much killed the game for me. It's so boring and bland, entirely disconnected from the narrative and not player friendly I've given up on it after nearly 30 years. A big part of the problem is them scrapping the 3 Ways To Play. I played over 200 games of 9th edition, all but 4 or 5 were Open or Narrative play. I didn't care what was going on with Matched Play updates and balance dataslates because they weren't used in the game modes I was playing. Now they've ditched that, and everyone plays the same game all the time, because even Crusade is effectively just Matched Play + experience points. The entire concept of playing on a board with typically symmetrical objectives is so baked in to 10th's design that there are not just units or detachments but entire factions that depend on them being there. The concept of playing an ambush, assassinate or rescue mission is gone - it's always stand on these circles. Why? Because that's how you score points. It seems like this can only really be one of two explanations - either the game design departments have been hijacked by tournament bros replacing the old guard of game design, and designing the game that they want to play and the rest of us be damned, or the decree has come down from upper management that they're to try and make them an esport. It's probably a bit of both - I noted a few weeks back that it doesn't even feel like they're designing the game for tournament players now, but for the Twitch viewers. Anyway, ever since 10th came out I've seen a constant barrage of people with the same complaint, and I can see the same sentiment stirring around AoS 4th. I know a fair few people who have quit or are playing old editions. And GW has no idea, because they get all their data and feedback from inside tournaments, writing and responding in an echo chamber. Until people stop buying new stuff and write and tell GW why, I don't see there being a change unfortunately.

[@Leopaints222]

Many people are no longer interested in narrative games, they only go for competitive ones. I don't blame GW for this, it's people who want to take it really seriously instead of taking it as just a game. I can see it all the time (I work in a hobby shop) the campaign and narrative books are always left on the shelf and the latest pack of mission cards or competitive rules book for tournaments are sold out in just a few days.

[@kapitankapital6580]

I do wonder if maybe GW could do more to promote narrative content though. For example giving out free narrative campaigns to get people into playing them. What we've seen both in the online and offline spaces in the last two decades is that reducing those initial barriers to entry is the single most important factor in getting more people into a new hobby or facet of an existing hobby. I also think part of the issue is that most people don't have a group of friends who are all wargamers who can commit time to running campaigns. It's so much easier to go to a store and fight a battle with a stranger, and for that you want good balancing and tight rules. I think GW could look to focus narrative rules on quick "pick up and play" games that are more approachable. I also think maybe hobby stores could improve this by putting more effort into building a community among their customers - setting up online spaces on Discord or Whatsapp or whatever (obviously moderated) where people can make these relationships and arrange more in-depth games could help this. In the same way that a lot of shops nowadays try to get people to sign up to mailing lists for marketing, there's no reason why a similar thing could not be achieved using those methods. Putting QR codes on receipts or around the store is one obvious way to promote this, as are links in traditional email marketing and newsletters.

[@bryanvestal3923]

That's sad

[@kewanzahedinour7304]

To be honest, nearly no list matters (unless it is a 100% shooting list vs a "shitlist"). Here is the reason: If you arent a good (mostly 3:2, some 4:1 with the shot at 5:0) Nothing you do in listbuilding matters more than like 5%, because the games are decided by one player is faster in sacrificing their 500p hammer unit faster...

[@piotrjeske4599]

That is not true. If someone is both bad and wants to play a biker or terminator list , and they go with DA , they will invest a lot of money in to an army that doesn't work. GW designed a ton of list around playing detachments, factions in one specific way. And if you don't do it the thing doesn't work (if someone likes bots in Ad Mecha for example) ,and that is a thing separate from the army/faction/detachment power. Now some factions can be powerful enough to carry a ton of points of bad stuff , as long as you take the "op" too. Other factions have so few units, thar when they are good (knights, harlequins, custodes, GK) it is hard to build a bad arm for them. And even a new/bad player is going to beat a new/bad player with a strong army, when their opponents army is weak . Worse it will create this super negative feeling for the loser , especialy if he loses over and over again.

[@kewanzahedinour7304]

@@piotrjeske4599 Sorry should have been more precise, I am talking about AoS

[@kewanzahedinour7304]

@@piotrjeske4599 and Intatally agree with you, in 40k listbuilding matters A LOT. Maybe because the way Shooting (It’s stronger) and melee (charged unit strike first) works, maybe for other reasons. Btw absolutely not judging, I myself do like listbuilding a lot!

[@OverboardDM]

You do get that with necromunda. Just getting into it now. Wish killteam was more like necromunda.

[@PointyPaints]

i wish GW used boarding actions as the entry level game for 40k

[@Furzkampfbomber]

I see this from a perspective that is a bit different. Meaning, I've never played the tabletop, I am just a massive Wh40k lore nerd who happens to love to paint miniatures and create little dioramas. I am on of the people Discourt claims are utterly unimportant, because we don't play the tabletop. And from my perspective, GW has lost its ways when it comes to narrative and storytelling quite some time ago. That I am not buying GW models anymore, since I am not willing to pay the insane prices anymore, is just another part of the GW problem. And watching what is going on with the game and the way how GW handles the rules, I really feel sorry for the people actually playing the game. It's like GW is trying to actively push customers away.

[@TheTobaccoman]

100% they’ve changed from narrative to computer game meta driven type balancing. Which is too much for a game that requires so much buy in and time spent to get models on the field. That design and balancing works for video games as it’s quick , not much money invested for warhammer you’re talking hundreds to thousands of dollars spent and many many hours to ready models to field. This pace is too break neck and unsustainable for this kind of game. IMO.

[@paulyg405]

I've been reading the 7th edition Leviathan and Exterminatus campaign books for some inspiration, and it strikes me that those kind of books just wouldn't make sense in current 40k because they wouldn't work competitively, and I'm not sure that they are something that most players want anymore? GW are persisting with the Crusade idea, but judging by how many of those wiro bound books are still gathering dust at all my local FLGs's I don't think they've made that much of an impact on the game. It's probably more to do with selling limited runs of nice big hardback source material books to all the lore nerds out there. My feeling is that GW believe competitive is what people want from 40k and AoS now and they're leaving the narrative focus to other games. I'm happily sticking with Heresy, but I do feel bad for the hardcore 40k fans who aren't interested in the competitive scene

I played my first 40K crusade game a few weeks back and was shocked how boring the Space Marines side of things was after wrapping my head around the badly written and flavorless rules...

[@jarosawknas8947]

Army roster of 40 x jezzails was popular in 2003 so I think game never had a soul.

[@piotrjeske4599]

They make games to make investors happy. And they have been like that for a long time. The video games style of design exist since at least 8th ed w40k. The problem is that for a skilled or unskilled player changing from being a DK tank to a Warrior tank is uncomperably lower. Your class/factionis bad , maybe even is no more? Okey , if you went ham you lost 100$ and time. With table top games to money and time investment is 5-6x higher , at minimum. So if something is bad/removed or too good , the impact of it is bigger. Also unlike a lot of video games, people don't play games solo (unless youbouht two armies, terrain etc. But now we are comoaring 100$ to 1000-2000$ of investment.

[@davidmiddleton7958]

Games Workshop has missed the sink hole of what Warhammer & 40k is now! They haven't got a clue what to do, where to go, or even how it impacts the gaming community! The destruction of whole sections of gaming! What you had before was much better thsn what you have now! Oh, your army lists will come in now on smart phones! It doesn't matter about the lore and feel of the narrative!

[@minimundus1712]

I gw making the same mistake like Warmashine ?

[@TheTrueLeafless]

Path to Glory is still a thing in AoS...

[@minimundus1712]

Its allwasy Bla bla bla, they made 40k and Sigmar like this to allways create a big enemy like in the old cartoons and next version all is fine again... ^^

[@BaconGold790]

I completely agree. I prefer narrative play since the goal is to have fun and tell a story. In a way like DnD. When you make a game like 40K too competitive it just insensitive you to only take Meta armies and remove fun rules. Games workshop is making a mistake trying to turn 40K into a board game. It’s a totally different beast. This is why I have been home brewing rules with my mates. Much more easier and more fun.

[@idiotproofdalek]

The factions are so unbalanced that Warhammer can never really be competitive.