Who Killed Joffrey and Why?

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[@wolfcounsel2862]

How funny would it be if Joff just choked on the pie rather than anyone actually going out of their way to assassinate him

[@TheTam0613]

I love this thought!

[@Me-qp8vz]

hair pie?

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

Have you read The Stormlight Archive? There's a scene somewhere in there where a historian character tells a story in which exactly that happens. The guy she's talking about is a king who massacred his entire family at a feast so that they couldn't betray him for their own gain. He then proceeded to choke to death, because he'd just killed everyone who might possibly have helped him. I think that's mentioned near the end of book three. It's just one large paragraph, and then it's never mentioned again.

[@DrDeFord]

Or, my favorite: multiple assassins were after him, but they got beaten to the punch by him accidentally choking on the pie.

[@bmetalfish3928]

honestly, could have happened with how much he drank, if his preference of softer meats made him unused to chewing and a posibility of allergies, he would be right in the age bracket for Eosinophil Esophagus or EOE.

[@Wuoffan1]

The question really isn't "Who killed him and why?" It's "Who got to him first?"

[@neuralmute]

I love it. Not "Who killed him?" but "Who succeeded?"

[@kardy12]

@@neuralmute Or, rather, who won the race to get there first 😂

[@Cosper79]

Very intriguing concept, an assassination in which no one could be blamed because everyone wanted the target dead.

[@alexishenry4434]

😂😂😂😂

[@cmachinist]

Yes, that's what "Who killed him?" means. Lets say there was a race and I asked you "who won?". And you said "The question isn't who won, It's who crossed the finish line first"

[@Commander_Ray]

everyone hates Joffrey even Joffrey hated Joffrey. I imagine the dozen assassins at the wedding were sad they didn't get to do it

[@jamesgravil9162]

Looks like someone found a cure for being a c**t after all!

[@goatmc]

Even Tyrion himself says something to the effect of I wish I had killed that inbred halfwit. I wish I was the monster you all think I am.

[@loyaltyisroyalty5616]

Everyone hates Joffrey until they realize that he would have utterly crushed the High Sparrow and the faith militant.

[@jamesgravil9162]

@@loyaltyisroyalty5616 Perhaps, but by doing so he would have made things a lot worse. Killing the High Sparrow (essentially the Pope of Westeros) might cause a general uprising of the Faithful. Similar to what happened during the Dance of the Dragons, when the Faith made the masses turn against the Targaryens.

[@loyaltyisroyalty5616]

@@jamesgravil9162 right! I’m just talking about the show, how they set it up for the viewer to feel bad for the Lannisters and hate on the sparrow. At that point it would have been satisfying to see Joffrey go loco.

[@TraciPeteyforlife]

I believe their were several plots to kill Joffery going on at once. The question isn't who killed him, its how many people were trying to kill him.

[@thecactusman17]

It's not even "how many were trying." It's "who was bold enough to risk being caught." And that's why I think that both Olynna and Littlefinger take the blame together. Littlefinger procures and sets up the poison in a subtle way, but then makes sure that a few unreliable agents working with his rivals are aware of its importance. Those agents are easily manipulated into revealing the truth to their own plotters. Olynna is an old woman - she has immense experience but also a strong resentment towards the men of House Tyrell. If she is caught the vast majority of blame will fall on the portion of the Tyrell name that she holds no allegiance to and Joffrey will likely kill or horrifically abuse her daughter anyway. And Joffrey is conveniently embroiled in his own public fight with Tyrion. There are at least 5 good reasons why Olynna feels she can strike the killing blow and get away with it. And Littlefinger is counting on this. Half the true powers on the guest list probably know about the hair net. Possibly even Tywin. But Littlefinger _didn't_ know which would be bold enough to act until Sansa confirmed it for him. His proximity was probably so that if the poison failed he could ensure that all of his agents would be caught and executed before any could spill the beans. But it also allows him to abscond with the only true witness who is worth more alive than dead.

[@shadow_realm47]

@@thecactusman17 crazy to think Tywin knew the whole plot and let it be carried out. I think He also knew about the Mountain and Oberyn and was hoping they would take each other out.

[@thecactusman17]

@@shadow_realm47 For Tywin, it could go either of two ways. If Joffrey dies, he has a spare. That's very important to keep in mind. Remember that Tywin can know there's a plot but not know who will carry it out. He probably assumes that everyone is plotting a way to the throne. But they are also the same people who the king must have on their side to rule. But by the same token, he might be hoping that somebody accidentally slips up and reveals themselves. Ned Stark is accused of treason, beheaded, and suddenly his daughter is being married to the Lannisters. Robb is dead. Rikkon is presumed dead. Bran is crippled and cannot have heirs. Arya is presumed dead. The marriage to Tyrion, an infamous womanizer, essentially guarantees that Winterhold will belong to the Lannisters within a generation. Possibly also Dorn. The biggest threat is Joffrey's erratic and cruel behavior but he can use that to his advantage to force the Lannisters into the inheritance of yet another kingdom if he's vigilant.

[@BattyButtercup]

Well there was Baelish, Varys, Olenna, Margaery, the Tyrell brothers, Gendry Loyalists, Stannis Loyalists, Ser Dontos, the general populace of the Red Keep, Tywin Lannister, Sansa Stark, whomever Joffrey had most recently screwed over if not named already, House Martell, the Iron Bank, the pigeons from the pie, Myrcella... I have almost certainly forgotten someone who would want Joffrey dead & be desperate/drunk enough to take an opportunity at least 3 people were aware existed.

[@jakes658]

​@@shadow_realm47Tywin was effectively the king. He didn't want joffrey assassinated.

[@TheAfikoman]

"On the bottom shelf behind a row of salves in squat clay jars he found a vial of indigo glass, no larger than his little finger." From the prologue of A Clash of Kings when Maester Cressen uses the same poison. Given GRRM's writing, this was one of the most compelling arguments to hint at the culprit, far before the plot played out. Passages like this are why I hold this series above all others.

[@j-rey-]

Holy hell, that's brilliant

[@hijonathan]

_"Ser Dontos fumbled in his pouch and drew out a silvery spiderweb (...)"_ Something else GRRM does to clue in his reader about upcoming events is how he'd describe a thing or a scenery. For example, he writes _"The cloudless sky turned a deep purple, the color of an old bruise (...)"_ moments before the Walkers attack the Night's Watch rangers in Book 1. Indeed, it's details like these that make ASoIAF compelling.

[@Hochspitz]

Even though I have read ACOK twice I didn't pick up that tidbit!

[@alexhulea2735]

​@@Hochspitzit dawned on me when there was a mention of how a gem was missing. Well, it didn't even occur to me that it was the same poison Stannis' Maester tried to use on Melisandre

[@KipIngram]

@@Hochspitz It's absolutely possible to continue to notice small bits in a series even after many readings. There are usually just more details there than can be absorbed on a first reading, particularly given that at that point we don't know what comes later.

[@conor7575]

I think there is another layer to Littlefinger making sure Tyrion took the blame. Tyrion had been checking the crown's finances, and was likely quite close to uncovering what littlefinger had been up to with the finances. Unlike in the books where he had simply been borrowing, Littlefinger's secret wasn't so much how he got the money, but what he did with it. In addition to enriching himself, he had also created financial bubble taht would invariably burst in the future.

[@neuralmute]

Definitely. Littlefinger had absolutely been cooking the books for years, and Tyrion was in the best position to know all about it, as Master of Coin with a functional brain. He needed to be got out of the way just as much as Joffrey, if not more.

[@Knight860]

Tyrion has also been the only one to put the pieces together regarding the Cat's Paw dagger, and tried to pin the blame on Tyrion when Cat went to Kings Landing.

[@Wolfeson28]

Plus Tyrion had been married to Sansa by that point, and Littlefinger needed Sansa to be available again.

[@mankytoes]

There is also the matter of all the cronies he'd appointed to important positions. You'd expect a competent Master of Coin like Tyrion to gradually replace them, either with his own men or just the most competent. If this was part of his plan, it seems to have worked, with successors Harys Swyft and Gyles Rosby being pretty useless, certainly not men capable of unravelling Littlefinger's schemes.

[@micahmcfadden8082]

Also tyrion knows little finger started the war between his house and the starks

[@DavidBrocekArt]

I always liked the idea that he was poisoned by some random never-mentioned baker/smith from the city, because it would emphasize the fact that he was hated by literally everyone.

[@kagekun1198]

A bit you overlooked in the books was that the poison was prophesied in A Clash of Kings. Arya, alongside the Brotherhood Without Banners pay a visit to a maegi. There, she speaks of a Man Without a Face on Pyke, before Balon Greyjoy was killed, and she speaks of a beautiful woman wearing a net of poisonous vipers heads in her hair, each head dripping venom

[@pyropulseIXXI]

Yep.... I am so amazed that something that is as good as settled is taken as "who did it?" and people in the comments are seriously saying "Tyrion was the target. It wasn't LF. It was this and that blah blah blah."

[@daylnroegner6744]

What does that have to do with Joff??

[@doghat1619]

We don't know if it was Before Balon was killed though. A Clash of Kings isn't told chronologically.

[@herbthompson8937]

Is the Ghost of High Heart a maegi???? I just thought she had visions

[@justdan9264]

​@@daylnroegner6744the woman wearing the poisonous hair net is Sansa

[@JimmyLundberg]

Littlefinger provided the weapon, but he had very little control over who would use it on whom. He's doing his best mastermind impression for Sansa but note that he doesn't actually know who took the poison until she told him. He could only make sure Lady Olenna knew about the hair net, he couldn't be sure what she'd do with the information. As long as Sansa got away with him, it didn't really matter who died.

[@simontaylor2143]

But did Olena have a motive to poison anyone but Joff?

[@JimmyLundberg]

​@@simontaylor2143 there were a lot of moving parts, and I doubt Petyr fully trusted Olenna to begin with. She could've done any number of things with that loaded gun, pointing it at Joff herself being but one of them. He was more concerned with 1) his main goal of moving Sansa and 2) not incriminating himself.* Point being, Littlefinger was fine with many of the possible outcomes. *he even uses a drunken fool for a key role in order to minimize personal risk. He couldn't risk approaching Sansa himself with the necklace, and while Ser Dontos' motivation for helping Sansa was compelling, another important factor was his (in)ability to turn on Littlefinger.

[@carlrood4457]

@@simontaylor2143 Well, Tywin's the sort of person nearly anyone would have reason to kill. There's even a theory he was already being slowly poisoned. With him out of the way, balance of power could shift to the Tyrells moreso than killing Joffrey. However, given Joffrey's instability, that's not guaranteed and Tywin was a "devil you know" type person, ruthless but not insane. However, it's the timing that makes Joffrey the most likely target. It needed to be fast and before the marriage was consumated. Normally, it would have been safer to go the slow poison route and let people think the king died from illness. They didn't have the time for that because marrying Tommen would have been off the table if the marriage to Joffrey was consumated.

[@rickdesper]

I doubt LIttlefinger just told Olenna about the poison. Surely they already had an agreement that he'd get the poison in place and she would use it. He wouldn't just take a shot in the dark that she might want to use it. He wouldn't provide the poison unless he knew she definitely would use it. Consider how vulnerable he would be if Olenna didn't go along with the plan. Littlefinger would never expose himself to that level of risk. (At least not in the books.)

[@Alknix]

7:00 And this is the biggest flaw in the hair-net theory. Why in the world would Olenna need to smuggle in the poison? It's not like she was searched or if it would've been difficult to hide a tiny portion of posion somewhere on her person (in a ring, most likely). I could maybe accept that it would've been easier for Littlefinger, with his vast circle of business contacts and connections in Essos, to procure the poison, but surely there're safer ways of passing it to Olenna than through a greedy drunk and a clueless frightened girl.

[@ashmeadowphoenix]

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Olenna isn't trying to smuggle in poison. Littlefinger comes up with this plan, and already has the poison, and then when Olenna gets to King's Landing (and she actually agrees that Joffrey need to be poisoned) does he present her with a fait accompli.

[@mankytoes]

Yeah, it's really overly complex. The only possible advantage is making Sansa feel complicit, and thus more at Littlefinger's mercy. It feels like a bit of a stretch. Even accepting this, it would be easier to just give Sansa a regular hairnet, and for Olenna to have the poison hidden in his clothes. So that's the explanation I'd go with- doesn't really change anything.

[@kelleycleveland4692]

If they got caught, it would be easy to blame Sansa for it. She has more than enough reasons to kill him.

[@co94]

@@kelleycleveland4692 right. It creates another suspect who has means, motive, and opportunity.

[@Alknix]

​@@ashmeadowphoenix "This plan" being... what, exactly? To entrust the hairnet to Dontos, the unreliable drunk, and hope that he manages to pass it to Sansa, a clueless child, and hope that she remembers to wear it to the wedding, so that some assassin can then surrepticiously remove the crystal from it (and it has to be pretty loose for that, meaning it could've easily fallen out)? This is insane. Hell, who else but Olenna could even have approached Sansa and mingle with her hair like this?

[@carastone3473]

Well, as for the TV show, we know that Olenna got away with it COMPLETELY, confessing to Jaime just before she died of the gentle poison she so willingly drank.

[@SirCanuckelhead]

She just said she did it. One of her strengths was always controlling the room. She didn’t have much power left in that scene so she made claims to one thing that would sting even then. Almost 100% she was in on the plan, but her saying it here is not proof imo.

[@micahmcfadden8082]

@@SirCanuckelhead she 100% was an active participant she is the one that takes the poison out if sansas hairnet however it makes much more sense to me that margery put it in the cup

[@SirCanuckelhead]

@@micahmcfadden8082 right, but my main point is, even if she had 0% participation, she still would have claimed it at that moment. It was one of the only power moves she had and she played it like a beast.

[@ZS-bg7jo]

You can actually SEE her do it... Watch carefully and you can see her palm a piece off Sansa's necklace. This was how the poison was smuggled in

[@micahmcfadden8082]

@@ZS-bg7jo please stop citing the show 😅

[@perlundgren7797]

Think about it. Who has connections to both Tommen and Margaery _and_ has received death threats by Joffrey? In other words, the motive is a combination of bringing his two favourite people together and self-defence. It's obviously Ser Pounce.

[@Edmures_rampant_manhood]

I used to think it was hot pie, but you might be on to something...

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

All hail the Pounce That Was Promised!

[@s0undf0rm]

Still not clear who was warging inside ser pounce😸

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

@@s0undf0rm Ser Pounce would never allow himself to be warged. He did this entirely of his own. He's a very clever kitty.

[@kpax2066]

Littlefinger has to be involved because he knew beforehand that it was going to happen. Thats why he spirited Sansa away.

[@Alknix]

He was going to steal her anyway. A wedding is a good sitraction, because everyone will be drunk and tired from partying.

[@Sienisota]

Little finger tried to poison Tyrion. But Joffrey ate Tyrion's food. The assassin was the waiter.

[@perlundgren7797]

@@Alknix By all means, but how do you explain the hairnet thing at 7:44?

[@boopingbanana3290]

⁠@@Sienisota framing him for the murder of joff is as much a death sentence as littlefinger could want, no? i agree that he had many reasons for wanting tyrion dead, but the poison had to be for joff

[@Alknix]

@@boopingbanana3290 Not at all. Remember, Tyrion was about to be acquited, if Oberyn didn't get carried away.

[@ashleyofnaath]

Joffrey's gluttony killed Joffrey, because he ate his uncle's pie slice and consumed poison that wasn't intended for him (courtesy of Lord Baelish).

[@Mwezi828]

Can’t tell if this comment is serious

[@carlrood4457]

@@Mwezi828 It's one of the theories out there because Baelish needs to make Sansa single again and it's far less convoluted and has fewer moving parts than the hairnet/Olenna theory. Also the cup was supposed to be a shared cup and there was the possibility that Margaery might have drank from up.

[@ashleyofnaath]

​@@Mwezi828 It's very serious. While I think the absence of Olenna's whereabouts on the dais for a time is suspicious, and the Tyrells jumping in to plant the seed of Margaery's innocence immediately after Joff dies is also suspicious, I wholeheartedly believe the target was Tyrion and Joff was a happy accident that accomplished Littlefinger's goals and then some.

[@ashleyofnaath]

​​@@carlrood4457 A widowed Sansa isn't the only reason LF wanted Tyrion dead. Tyrion told LF to LF's face he knew who killed Jon Arryn; he also knows the truth about the dagger/assassination attempt on Bran, so yeah, ample reason to want him dead. I suspect he tried to kill Tyrion twice before, during the riot of King's Landing after Myrcella was shipped off and during the Battle of the Blackwater. He just never succeeded in those attempts, and didn't directly succeed at Joff's wedding either; but Tyrion getting blamed for a murder he didn't commit worked out just as well cause Tyrion should've been executed for the crime.

[@ashleyofnaath]

​@@Aurora-qn2dx It was a sarcastic choice to catch people's attention for the rest of the comment; wasn't supposed to be taken literally. My goodness lol.

[@connorlang8048]

I just wanna say the knowledge I have gained from your KZbin channel over the past couple years helped me win $200 at a GoT trivia contest at a bar, thank you for helping me with that W

[@SugarBooger10]

Congrats

[@pedropierre9594]

It always seemed to me like Tywin was contempt with Joffreys death, as if he wanted someone else to be king someone more malleable

[@Me-qp8vz]

Jamie seems the more likely suspect after all the insults he suffered from Joffrey. Have you read the books?

[@Andrewcranky]

And I seariously doubt Olenna would have been so brazen if she didn't have assurances from Tywin that she and her family would not be overly investigated and harmed. Joffrey was insane and stupid, a real danger to the Lannister family. He had to go.

[@cbob213]

Little Finger was fishing. Sansa was the one who told him about the hair net. The poison could have been in the pie. He drank twice from the cup. After the first time he was fine. Then he ate a piece of pie and started to choke. He then took another drink and he was already choking. The poison could have been meant for Tyrion, who was married to Sansa at the time. And Little Finger needed Tyrion gone so that Sansa was free to wed. Reread the scene again thinking of it like this. Sansa gives Little Finger all the information to piece it together. Yes he wanted Sansa, and used Ser Dontos to deliver her. But the rest is what GRRM skillfully hides as he does so well. To leave it open to interpretation.

[@guibox3]

That Tyrion was the intended target and not Joffery makes no sense. The plot was to take the throne and Joffery was in the way with the kind of person he was. Littlefinger just found a convenient way to make Tyrion take the fall for it, thus freeing up Sansa to be his. Remember that this also implicated Sansa as well as she was married to Tyrion then made to disappear when Joffery died. This was Littlefinger's way of getting Sansa completely away from the Lannisters.

[@user-py5rt4xx5x]

@@guibox3 it is worth telling Varys to Tyrion about who told Catelyn that the dagger belonged to Tyrion and the little finger is a corpse

[@simontaylor2143]

What would be the point of bringing the jousting dwarfs to the wedding if not to antagonise Tyrion and make him the obvious fall guy? No point goading conflict between him and Jof if Tyrion is about to die As I recall Littlefinger says he suggested/found the dwarf act without any prompting from sansa

[@antoninabandrivska8806]

@@simontaylor2143 To make Tyrion angry and distracted, so he doesn’t notice his lemon cream being poisoned

[@bmobmo6438]

@@antoninabandrivska8806 Tyrion wasn't the target, because Littlefinger knew if he killed Joffrey and framed Tyrion, Cersei would make sure Tyrion was executed for it. He could earn a favor from Highgarden, create the chaos of another succession, spirit Sansa away and get his rival killed all in one fell swoop.

[@conors4430]

The thing I hated most about the purple wedding was, anybody with brains would’ve known that tyrion wouldn’t do it because it would’ve been so obvious. And yet none of that was ever mentioned. Everyone in the room is supposed to believe that he poisoned his own nephew, the king right there in front of everybody, after the two of them were clearly in conflict with one another. It’s just so lame, but it’s taken as a given. And even though cersei had the witnesses stacked against him, all, singing the same tune, tyrion never pointed it out in the court in front of everybody, that it would have been the dumbest plot of all time.

[@michaelG_61]

You're assuming everyone believed all that though, which is probably not true. Instead, Cersei was enraged and she believed it, and nobody was about to stand up to her and try to say otherwise. Would you have raised your hand in front of the iron throne to tell her she was crazy and that it couldn't have been Tyrion? Unlikely. She was a mother blinded by rage and grief who already had an axe to grind against her brother, and while it would of been a dumb plan, it was also hard to disprove on his part and someone had to pay.

[@tombullard123]

Most of the important players who wouldnt have believed it was tyrion seem to be plotting to dispose of joffrey (LF, olenna, varys)

[@Slammy555]

I figured Cersei would likely think anyone defending Tyrion was complicit, best to keep quiet in those situations.

[@frankiapples]

Cersei likely didn't logically believe that Tyrion did it, but she believed that Tyrion was a threat to her life because of the valonqar prophecy and believed that Tyrion had killed her monther. In her rage at the death of her son she would of course blame the person she hated the most. Accusing Tyrion in public here was the perfect scenario for her to get rid of him to prevent her death prophecy.

[@tylermiller5836]

Yes but you’re ignoring key points. First Tyrion literally told Cersei he’d kill her kids when he got the chance. We as the readers know he was lying but she believed it. She also fully believed he’d murder her one day because of the prophecy so her fear/hatred blinded her. Tywin likely knew Tyrion didn’t do it but he didn’t care. He always hated Tyrion and with Jaime back and Sansa gone he no longer had any use for him.

[@TerenceGrimstone]

I'm convinced Tyrion was the target. There are just sooooo many things supporting that view. Also, Littlefinger himself admits to having no motive for killing Joffrey

[@michaellee4276]

Littlefinger himself says all the time he does things without motive. It is part of how he plays the game. He creates chaos and then takes advantage of confusion and does favors for the other players negotiating the confusion (he later calls in those favors). His main motive here was probably to ingratiate himself with Olenna Tyrell (and maybe Margaery) by helping their plot to kill Joffrey, and to use the chaos to advance his Sansa plan.

[@user-py5rt4xx5x]

Olenna would have had a motive to kill Jofri only after the birth of an heir. Because the tomen has to wait several years to get married, and this creates problems. And Littlefinger has no motive to kill Joffrey. For house? So Jofri is a constant source of house

[@cjhtx5301]

You’re no true lord

[@user-py5rt4xx5x]

​@@cjhtx5301 Lord is right

[@christyb2912]

@@user-py5rt4xx5x Except they did marry right away

[@Knight860]

Sansa telling Olenna about Joffrey's nature also rings true for a literary Chekov's gun, meaning something had to happen.

[@TheTam0613]

Fantastic point!

[@Knight860]

@@TheTam0613 Thanks!

[@Wolfeson28]

The funny thing about that scene, though, is that based on what else we learn, Olenna had already agreed to the poisoning before talking with Sansa. Sansa gets the hairnet back in ACoK, and there's no point in Littlefinger planting the poison if he didn't already have Olenna on board to do the deed. Maybe Olenna was just making one last double-check to solidify her decision before going ahead with it.

[@kylelyle4976]

Yeah but not everyone writes with that rule in mind. It’s a literary pattern we can observe, but not a rule authors have to follow.

[@deathwrow9652]

@@Wolfeson28 She would also know that LF is probably deceitful, and asked a child on what her opinion was.

[@hughmoore2143]

There are some problems with all this, and I’m going to go over an alternate explanation: 1. Littlefinger has no incentive to killing off Joffery. Quite the contrary, he seems to have quite a bit of influence over Joff, and might be sorry to see him go. 2. It’s even worse for Olena. The queen of thorns may not like Joff, but he is her key to gaining power. There is no guarantee that if he dies, Margery will get to marry Tommen. Killing him off would be a huge risk, which she would not want to take. 3. On the other hand, Olena had a lot of reason to want to bump off Tyrion. He is married to Sansa, who is likely the key to gaining control of the North. If Tyrion was dead, Olena could move forward with her plan to spirit her away and marry her into the Tyrells. 4. LIkewise, Littlefinger has a lot of incentive to kill Tyrion. Tyrion is the new master of coin, and might just be smart enough to see how much Littlefinger has been stealing from the realm. If you read through the chapter again, it’s clear the Joffery drinks some wine, then eats some of the pie, then tries to drink more wine. It’s during the second drink that he starts choking. Compare to Master Cressen, who is affected more or less as soon as he drinks it. It’s clear that the poison isn’t in the wine. It’s in the pie - Tyrion’s pie! The poison was in the pie, or more likely the dash of cream on top of the pie. The more times I’ve read the chapter the more convinced I am.

[@SugarBooger10]

Perfect

[@richardhollis3783]

Okay, not the craziest idea out there. And I do have to admit, there is quite a shuffling of wine and pies which I think would be hard for Olenna to predict... But on the other hand, I do take issue with the idea that either Littlefinger or Olenna would not want Joffrey dead. As well as his general love of causing chaos, Littlefinger also has a creepy obsessive thing going on with Sansa, effectively his stand-in for Cat. I can easily see him wanting to kill Joffrey just for all the torture he put her through. Consider that he actually confides in Sansa and tells her that he was involved, which is very uncharacteristic of him. It's clear to me he wants her to be impressed, to realise what surely must have been going through his own head - he saved her, rescued her, and killed her abuser. What a white knight. And Olenna makes perfect sense too. She doesn't need Joffrey, she just needs a king. True, there is no GUARANTEE that the Lannisters would agree to marry Marg to Tommen, but then again, why wouldn't they? Very little has changed in the balance of power between the two houses since they agreed to marry her to Joff. It seems entirely plausible that Olenna would take the risk to save her granddaughter from Joffrey who is surely the greater risk? Would they also have wanted Tyrion dead? Possibly. But Joffrey certainly would have been on their kill list as well.

[@Hellafast2uDude]

1. Frame Tyrion and take the north (what he is trying to do) along with Sansa (whom he had sympathy for). No one expects and knows that Tywin will execute his own son. 2. "There is no guarantee that if he dies, Margery will get to marry Tommen." - its actutally is. Tywin wanted to connect two houses to remove problems with grain, finances and strengthen the army no matter what - all for family raise 3.Outright fictional fantasy. Take it higher - Daenerys wanted to get out easier on the continent with Sansa 4. He could do it in any time just by some bribing a passerby or pour poison in a brothel

[@88happiness]

My favorite scene in the show is when Lady Olena tells Jamie that she did it. She was amazing!

[@eric2500]

Dianna Rigg was that!

[@herbthompson8937]

Good thing that will most likely never happen in the books

[@permiebird937]

I think the poison was placed under the sauce on the pie. I think Tyrion was the target. The pie was cut and a piece set at Tyrion's place, and then it was covered in sauce. Then Joff comes over and demands Tyrion eat his pie, and when Tyrion won't, Joff eats Tyrion's piece of pie, then dies. The poison was meant for Tyrion to make Sansa widow.

[@ShadeStormXD]

yah i think likewise, everything just fits to easily. littlefinger freeing up sansa from marriage. as well as causing chaos via dispute between joff and tyrion(possibly leading to people thinking joffrey had him killed)

[@patrickdematosribeiro1845]

I have heard the theory before, but I think there is one problem with it: Would Sansa really be able to escape if Tyrion was the one who died? She would get a lot of attention in this scenario. Firstly, she was sitting next to her husband so all eyes would automatically be on her if Tyrion suddenly started choking. Secondly, people like Garlan the Galant might consider it their duty to give the widow their condolences if Tyrion died so they would look for Sansa. Thirdly, Olenna who is very quick thinking might want to proceed with her original plan to marry Sansa to Willas so she might want to take care of Sansa, console her and tell Tywin: "That poor girl has been through so much, now she lost her husband as well. She should go somewhere elseto recover from the shock, can we take her to Highgarden?" Hoping Tywin could not refuse without offending the Tyrells. Fourthly, Tywin might forsee the danger and arrest Sansa under suspicion of killing Tyrion to prevent anyone from making plans involving her. After all she was Tyrions wife and it was not a secret that she hadn't wanted the marriage. If however Joffrey was the one who died nobody thought immediately about Sansa and she could escape relatively easy. Since Sansa ecaping was important for Littlefinger I think it is more likely Joffrey was the target.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

I agree especially since the Strangler is described as working instantly after ingestion so that means it wasn’t in the wine since Joffrey was actually fine after drinking the wine he only choked after eating a piece of the pie

[@permiebird937]

@@patrickdematosribeiro1845 At first all attention would be on Tyrion. Everyone would think he choked on a bone. Garlan Tyrell would probably be pounding on Tyrion's back to dislodge the bone. Once Tyrion was dead, he would be taken to Pycell's workshop to be examined after the wedding feast. There would not be the same level of concern if Tyrion died than Joff dying. It might be believed that Tyrion's loss of his nose made the choking fatal. Pycell or other maesters might suspect, but until he did a full exam he would not know for certain. The Tyrell's might hope for an opportunity to get Sansa, but Tywin would not allow Sansa to leave the red keep, until she had married another Lannister. Tywin arresting Sansa is a minor risk, but if everyone thinks Tyrion died choking on a bone, it's simply an accident. Cersie would be overjoyed if Tyrion is dead, and Tywin would be relieved Tyrion is gone. Tyrion's family doesn't care about him, Tyrion has pissed off Pycell with the black cells incident, so there would be much less fuss around his "choking on a bone," than Joff. Sansa after suddenly becoming a widow, would probably ask to go pray at the Sept, then go on to the God's wood which would give Dontos a chance to collect her. She would be gone before anyone looked for her. Tyrion dying would have made for an easier escape.

[@patrickdematosribeiro1845]

@@permiebird937 I am not so sure. As you said yourself, Tywin would not allow Sansa to leave the red keep until she married another Lannister. I did not think the Lannisters would be overly upset by Tyrions death. I think Olenna and Tywin would immediately focus on Sansa who has become an important piece in the game of thrones. Given the circumstances would she be allowed to go anywhere even the sept without guards or at least company? I doubt it. When Olenna first planned to marry Sansa to Willas she said something along the lines: "If we ask for permission to let you visit Highgarden Tywin cannot refuse without offending us and he needs us." This is why I thought Tywin might ordered her kept for questioning. Not necessarily because he knew Tyrion was poisoned or suspected her, but as a way to keep her away from the Tyrells without insulting them.

[@ShadeStormXD]

Joff's murder was 100% LF targetting Tyrion. He needed Sansa to be unwed. Tyrion told him to his face that he knew who had killed Jon Arryn(tho he didnt actually know). And Tyrion was sorting the crowns finances, likely soon to come upon the various debt traps and schemes LF had done to funnel money into his machinations

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

Well right, but the way he targeted Tyrion was through the dwarf show. Littlefinger isn't the kind of person to just idly make jabs like that, so it has to have had a deeper reason for it, and he pretty much says exactly what he did himself in Chapter 61: As he led her below, he said, "Tell me of the feast. The queen took such pains. The singers, the jugglers, the dancing bear . . . did your little lord husband enjoy my jousting dwarfs?" "Yours?" "I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, 'Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.' I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, 'Not as much as your uncle will.' " The deck rocked beneath her feet, and Sansa felt as if the world itself had grown unsteady. "They think Tyrion poisoned Joffrey. Ser Dontos said they seized him." Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa."

[@WaywardWhiteWalker]

Peter wanted Tyrion out of the picture. He hired the help and the Lemon Cream on the pigeon pie was tainted with the strangler. Joffery came over, ate Tyrion's pie and died. Peter seemed surprised when he heard the bells.

[@weshouser821]

I think this is a good narrative for GRRM to go with but my question about Peter is why does Littlefinger want Tyrion dead so badly? Is it just because Tyrion is a dwarf and Littlefinger thinks he is a threat? Why would he frame Tyrion at the beginning? I think Littlefinger also hired Mandon Moore and I think Varys is somehow involved with him and not as an enemy but as a type of ally. When Varys said that it was no longer a game for two players, I think he was talking about him and Littlefinger and not him and Illyrio.

[@marquisdesade3025]

@@weshouser821 maybe because he married Sansa

[@weshouser821]

@@marquisdesade3025 Yeah but he tried to frame him before he married her.

[@patrickdematosribeiro1845]

I have heard the theory before, but I think there is one problem with it: Would Sansa really be able to escape if Tyrion was the one who died? She would get a lot of attention in this scenario. Firstly, she was sitting next to her husband so all eyes would automatically be on her if Tyrion suddenly started choking. Secondly, people like Garlan the Galant might consider it their duty to give the widow their condolences if Tyrion died so they would look for Sansa. Thirdly, Olenna who is very quick thinking might want to proceed with her original plan to marry Sansa to Willas so she might want to take care of Sansa, console her and tell Tywin: "That poor girl has been through so much, now she lost her husband as well. She should go somewhere elseto recover from the shock, can we take her to Highgarden?" Hoping Tywin could not refuse without offending the Tyrells. Fourthly, Tywin might forsee the danger and arrest Sansa under suspicion of killing Tyrion to prevent anyone from making plans involving her. After all she was Tyrions wife and it was not a secret that she hadn't wanted the marriage. If however Joffrey was the one who died nobody thought immediately about Sansa and she could escape relatively easy. Since Sansa ecaping was important for Littlefinger I think it is more likely Joffrey was the target.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

@@patrickdematosribeiro1845 they suspected her even in the scenario where Tyrion didn’t die so why would it make a difference? Littlefinger was still planning on sneaking Sansa out regardless he just wanted to get rid of the legal binding of marriage by killing her husband.

[@jerrysstories711]

When we're talking about Joffrey, the question isn't why the killer killed him, but why everyone else didn't.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

It is important to note that it may not have been the wine that had the poison but Tyrion’s piece of pigeon pie, this is because after Joffrey drinks the wine he then walks and goes to eat Tyrion’s slice of pigeon pie and then soon after he collapses and suffocates to death. So it seems like the poison might’ve been meant for Tyrion since we are told the Strangler works pretty much instantaneously and we see how fast it works with Maester Cressen on Dragonstone, so we can pretty safely assume that the wine didn’t contain the poison because if it did it would’ve had an immediate effect. What would be very funny or even poetic is if Joffrey had arranged for Tyrion to be poisoned but he was too drunk to think of the possibility of the assassin poisoning Tyrion’s pie specifically and just inadvertently caused his own death through his cruel and sadistic behavior 😂

[@trajan4824]

I always thought the idea was that Littlefinger was trying to kill Tyrion but Joffrey ate the pie instead and ingested the poison meant for Tyrion. And everyone was like, “well, at least Joffrey is dead…”

[@AtheShaw]

Really love your videos!! Thanks for always making insightful and well-read analyses-makes rereads wonderful and exciting.

[@Anacronian]

I have always had a feeling that it was Grand Maester Pycelle, he wanted to get revenge on Tyrion, He had the poison but sadly for him the wrong person died.

[@jamesgravil9162]

More like he wants to get revenge on Cersei, who has been treating him like a doormat all this time. Tyrion cut his beard and threw him in prison, but he's been taking crap from Cersei (and Tywin) for years. Pycelle respects Tywin, but he doesn't respect Cersei.

[@Me-qp8vz]

Pycelle in the books liked killing people and blaming others You have a good point without realizing it.

[@AeonQuasar]

Like a classic Agatha Christie mystery, everyone was basically a suspect, but the least suspect on the surface was the perpetrator and the most obvious got the blame.

[@antoninabandrivska8806]

If Olenna Tyrell was the one to put poison into Joffrey’s cup, why have Sansa bring poison in hair net? I’m sure Olenna has pockets😂

[@lasloapollo4312]

I think the Tyrells were not trusted enough by Tywin. He would have spies everywhere to keep an eye on them. It would be way too noticable if Olenna grabbed a bottle of poison from her pockets.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

Yea it makes no sense

[@eric2500]

What if the poison came in two parts?

[@antoninabandrivska8806]

@@eric2500 Joffrey was poisoned with strangler poison, I don’t recall any mentions strangler comes in two parts. Even if it did, she probably can still carry them in her pockets;)

[@nunyabiznes33]

To implicate her? IIRC they eventually found the hairnet and confirmed the "amethyst" were poison.

[@guibox3]

My question (particularly in the TV series) was HOW did Olenna poison the cup? I watched intently and didn't see any opportunity where she could have dropped the poison into either the cup or the wine.

[@MolotDET]

in the series she picks the cup up off the floor and puts it on the table for Tyrion to pick up, fill with wine and hand to Joff. SHe is the second person to pick the cup off the floor, the first was Sansa.

[@Me-qp8vz]

Wow you completely missed all the hints about Joffrey's fool and the necklace. Re-watch the show and put the bong down ok?

[@roronoalaw7772]

@@Me-qp8vzIs there really any need to be a dick?

[@rosita3528]

​@@Me-qp8vz no need to be so rude. Some people actually watched the show and missed all the hidden secrets because they didn't read the books. You don't need to be an ass about it

[@guibox3]

@@Me-qp8vz I knew the necklace had poison in it and saw her take the necklace piece, you ninny. I was saying I didn’t see how she planted it in the cup.

[@vikingthedude]

Please never stop making these videos

[@Ashbrash1998]

I read a theory that it was like 4 different groups of people poisoning a bunch of others that somehow got mixed up and killed Joffrey and may have slowly killed Tywin.

[@mch12311969]

This clears up so many details from the show.

[@musculusiv4172]

The whole plot has a few minor holes no matter which way you turn it but the most plausible explanation is that it was Littlefinger (with or without Olenna's help) and Tyrion was the target

[@danni972]

Exactly - the Imp was the target. It was the cream on Tyrion’s pie that was poisoned and there was no way anyone could have predicted that Joffrey would eat his uncle’s pie.

[@simontaylor2143]

Except why even bother giving sansa the hairnet and antagonising Tyrion to feud with Jof? Littlefinger says he arranged the dwarf joust, no prompting from Sansa or Dontos that that was even a feature of the entertainment. Why make T&J quarrel if Tyrion is about to die anyway?

[@antoninabandrivska8806]

@@simontaylor2143 If Tyrion was the target, poison would be in lemon cream pie. If I recall correctly, servant had to pour the cream on the pie during the dwarfs jousting. While everyone is looking at the dwarfs and Tyrion getting really agitated, it would be very easy for the servant to snatch the poison from Sansa’s hair (no need to search the pockets) and put it into lemon cream. The main textual evidence that I recall is Joffrey having no problem drinking wine, but choking immediately after biting Tyrion’s pie. This poison is known to have immediate effect, as shows example of Stannis’s master.

[@simontaylor2143]

@@antoninabandrivska8806 surely any form of entertainment could have achieved the same distraction though. The dwarf joust seems a very deliberate means of goading conflict between the two. In fact if Tyrion was the target the joust actually saved his life as Joff came over to humiliate Tyrion (after Tyrion had got one over on him in verbal sparing)

[@Charles-In-Charge]

For sure mate, I’m so glad someone else said it I thought I was going crazy

[@robmansptfitness4403]

I just read the purple wedding yesterday, beautiful timing 😁

[@pricklypear7516]

Frankly, the person with the greatest motive for offing Joffrey was Tywin. Family in theory was everything to him, but in practice, Joffrey was expendable. The alliance with Highgarden, according to Tywin, absolutely had to succeed or the Lannister dynasty would fall, but it was just a matter of time before Joffrey's mistreatment of Margaery destroyed it.

[@garychartier8365]

Very nice.

[@Me-qp8vz]

Nope it was his father Jamie. In the books Joff insulted him so much even before Joff was king. Oh you haven't read the books? Sorry spoiler and all.

[@pricklypear7516]

@@Me-qp8vz Your assumption that I didn't read the books (where DO people come up with the nonsense they spout?) is as misguided as believing Jamie killed Joffrey. EVERYBODY insults Jamie. If he killed all the people who insulted him, all of King's Landing and most of Westeros would be dead.

[@juliancain3872]

​@@Me-qp8vz ... Jaime wasn't even in King's Landing when Joffrey died. Is that sarcasm?

[@AndrewK23777]

Great vid and analysis as always IDG and do agree as usual. Will be satisfying to see the textual version of the game blowing up in LF's face eventually but he is certainly quite good at playing it in the meantime. To get Sansa out of KL , blame Tyrion / cover his own tracks in the process and bring forth the chaos LF is known to thrive in all have a very LF feel. Ntm the textual clues you highlighted make it even more likely. There is a chance Tyrion was also a target and LF would be happy if both Tyrion and Joffrey died in the process. No love lost between Tyrion and LF ; Tyrion seemed to figure LF out and that LF was behind certain events / acts. LF quite possibly already unsuccessfully gunning for Tyrion (Blackwater mayhaps). That outcome (Tyrion dying) would have widowed Sansa so also likely appealed to LF. But how he cleverly initiated Olenna's involvement is suggestive Joffrey more the main target. Either way as hard to admit well done from LF - take out a rival , bring another top notch game player into the fray (Olenna) planting enough seeds knowing she would act to protect Margaery , getting Sansa out of KL & by his side , deflecting blame / covering his own tracks in process and killing an evil king giving rise to the chaos LF thrives in ; all in one fell swoop.

[@jamesgravil9162]

"There is a chance Tyrion was also a target and LF would be happy if both Tyrion and Joffrey died in the process" Not only that, but with Tyrion out of the picture, the obvious suspect would be Prince Oberyn who was also present at the wedding. Oberyn himself points this out to Tyrion when he visits him in prison. The Tyrells would immediately accuse Oberyn of poisoning Joffrey (he is called the "Red Viper" after all, and there is bad blood between the Martells and Tyrells), and things would get heated if Margaery succumbed to the poison as well. The last thing Tywin needs right now is open conflict with the Martells, who as we know are already planning to support Daenerys.

[@JoePizza810]

Thanks Robert!

[@JonCofer]

Seeing this video upload was a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one

[@twelve11]

LOVE all Ice and Fire content, especially about the Starks and the Tyrells

[@JervisGermane]

The question I thought you might answer here is, Who put the poison into the cup? Once Olenna had it, she wasn't seen anywhere near the wedding chalice, and if Tyrion had a hard time handling it there's no way she could have just popped it in without basically climbing up to it herself, which would have been noted by somebody. For my money the only viable candidate is Margaery, who's not suspected at all in the book, by anyone, and isn't even in on the plot in the show. That would also explain why she wasn't poisoned by it, because she knew not to really drink out of it after it had been poisoned.

[@herbthompson8937]

I don't remember reading anywhere where it tells us who exactly was by the chalice after Joffrey gets it back from Tyrion. I do prefer to think it was Garlan who had done it though. Margaery is def a possibility tho.

[@mRibbons]

I used to listen to you LotR content. This is very good as well! Looking forward to more videos!

[@melissaisloud7404]

I always wondered if Tyrion was the target, and the poison was in the pie Joffrey took from Tyrion.

[@InitialPC]

but other people ate from the pie, unless youre suggesting someone poisoned his specific dish, and in that case.. when would they have been able to do that? it would be much easier to poison the wine

[@Stormborn1991]

I agree with you . There is a youtuber named Preston, who made a video about It, explaining that theory.

[@TokenTombstone]

@@InitialPCA servant put a scoop of paste on Tyrion's pie.

[@gmsherry1953]

I'm more confused than I was to start with. From this narrative, it seems like Littlefinger put the plan in motion before Olenna was involved. He gives Sansa the hairnet right after Joffrey and Margaery are engaged. That's long before Olenna asked Sansa what Joffrey was like -- which I thought is what made Olenna decide to kill Joffrey. If Littlefinger had his men spread rumors when he was at Highgarden, okay, maybe that's when Olenna decided -- but, then, why ask Sansa about it later? And, how can Littlefinger arrange the wedding AND the assassination? How did he sing Joffrey's praises one day and the next tell Olenna "Oh, by the way, now that I've arranged the marriage, if you should want to kill the groom, there's this hairnet you can use"? How could SHE trust HIM when he's being that devious? If he's double-crossing the Lannisters, he could be double-crossing her, too. And what if Olenna hadn't decided to kill Joffrey -- did Littlefinger have a Plan B to use the poison he'd already planted?

[@samuelleask1132]

Great breakdown

[@nybaldeh4038]

I think a great follow up video would be “Why does Tywin blame Tyrion for the murder of Joffrey ?” Cuz I’m sure he knows he is innocent , but blames him anyway.

[@possessedchair8144]

It was a win for Tywin since he didn't want Tyrion to inherit the Lannister holdings and (in his mind) bring shame to the family. Add to this the fact that everyone was convinced already that Tyrion did the deed, Tywin wouldn't have felt the need to go out of his way to exonerate his son. You have to also consider the kind of backlash that might come from the Tyrells had Tyrion been allowed to walk.

[@Andrewcranky]

Tyrion hated his dworf son. He hated him for being a dwarf. He hated him for killing his mother in child birth. He hated him for being a degenerate whoremonger. But he hated him most of all because he, his degenerate dworf son, was the smartest and best of his three children.

[@nybaldeh4038]

@@possessedchair8144 thank you very much, maybe the fact the Tywin wasn’t fond of Joffrey also played a part in his decision to frame Tyrion.

[@MeetThaNewDealer]

Rhaegar did it.

[@neuralmute]

Isn't Rhaegar a horse, and wouldn't anyone have noticed a horse at the wedding feast?

[@chrissiek8706]

​@@neuralmutewhy? A lot of guest came a horse, one more horse wouldn't be suspicious 🐴🐴🐴🙃

[@louisbrown4620]

This is the most plausible.

[@bockskarr6626]

Excellent video

[@jessemeyer86]

Do you think it’s possible at all that Tywin also had a hand in this? He knew what Joffrey was, knew he wasn’t a good king, knew Tommin was more moldable, but also had this as an opportunity to literally kill two birds with one stone being as it was so easy to pin on Tyrion. He eliminates what he sees as his family’s biggest embarrassment and stops Joffrey from destroying everything. It has potential to make it so the North no longer has a reason to fight in the war of the 5 kings. Unfortunately Tywin dies before we ever know if he had a hand in it or not, but the trial alone was meant to rid Tywin or Tyrion.

[@brandiefraser8822]

I dont think it originated from him but I think he knew something about it but did nothing to stop it. It was better for everyone with Joffery dead.

[@iSunmonkey]

Great video thanks

[@brittanyofhouseblackwood]

I listened to Roy Dotrice read me Asoiaf for the first time through and I was at work when the purple wedding happened...I remember stopping what I was doing just to cheer and freaking cry in relief that he was dead! Petyr became one of my favorite characters afterward! Such a shame what they did to him on the show

[@Jasel71]

I've only begun to read the books but we far as the GOT show I've come to a conclusion, you need to watch the whole series at least twice. Once for all the action and then for all the politics and scheming.

[@konradhunter1407]

I don’t get the hair net part. If LF and O worked together O could easily have smuggled it herself. If not then we have to assume LF planted the hair bet and O coincidently saw it and took the opportunity. An unlikely to succeed plan by LF.

[@caturdayz44]

Littlefinger: “I will wager you that at some point during the evening someone told you that your hair net was crooked and straightened it for you.” Sansa raised a hand to her mouth. “You cannot mean... she wanted to take me to Highgarden, to marry me to her grandson...” “Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I’ll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery’s hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey’s nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure... whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell’s servants. That is how the game is played.

[@SitKid721]

He's learned the books would never get finished and died of a broken heart

[@maltormash1048]

I know Littlefinger likes Chaos but letting a drunken fool in on a plot to kill the king seems like a step to far . Also the hairnet as a method to smuggle is completely unnecessary and adds an element of risk . Its not like people are being searched and the clothes are all layered with plenty of hiding places. Littlefinger definitely the most likely planner but the execution doesn't make a lot of sense, plots within plots maybe making Sansa feel complicit.

[@chiokjarse]

I think Margaery was in on it. She suggested using another sword in order to give Olena time to put the poison in the chalice.

[@possessedchair8144]

There's a very popular theory that Littlefinger was trying to poison Tyrion and not Joffrey, which makes a lot more sense when you consider the following (book-specific) facts: 1. Joffrey started choking BEFORE he drank his wine, and right after he started eating his uncle's pie (which had been untouched up to that point) 2. Joffrey and Margery were drinking from the same chalice, why would the Tyrell's risk killing Margery? 3. The poison used by Littlefinger caused choking, logically such a poison would only be paired with food because you can't choke on drinks. Hence the pie. 4. If the Tyrell's had been responsible they wouldn't have needed Littlefinger's help and they wouldn't have trusted him such with a delicate plot. 5. Littlefinger's plan was to marry Sansa off after Tyrion had died, how could he have been sure that Tyrion would be blamed and executed? Littlefinger stood to gain from Tyrion's death, not Joffrey's.

[@Luciana_McC_99]

Exactly why would the Tyrell s need little fingers help. And the queen of thorns wouldn't do it herself she would just pay someone to do it. If she was going to do it herself why would she even have to involve little finger in the first place it makes no sense.

[@joshmathis1973]

I'm sorry, but are you seriously trying to suggest that it's not possible to choke from a drink?

[@possessedchair8144]

@@joshmathis1973 How do you choke on something that isn't solid? Choking refers to the airways being blocked leading to suffocation, unless you drown there's no way for that to happen with a liquid.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

@@joshmathis1973 you can’t unless you’re diving in some wine, it might go down the wrong hole and make you cough and gasp but it wouldn’t make you choke to death unless you’re literally swimming in the liquid

[@Oximb]

People knew about the animosity between Tyrion and Joffrey. Baelish hired some little people knowing very well how Joffrey would react... If Joffrey get killed, Tyrion would be the number one suspect. Cersei doesn't like her brother, Tywin would'nt mind Tyrion out of the picture, the city doesn't like him either. Tyrion said it the best during his trial, he is judge because he is a dwarf. And Baelish's plan was not to marry Sansa, the plan was for her to escape during Joffrey's death which make her instantly a traitor and therefore he can't marry her.

[@semweerts]

This is the most important question of all because whoever did it is a hero and needs to be given alot of money and land and anything they want because fuck jofery

[@mandowarrior123]

I thought it was obvious, they ALL did it. They all thought they poisoned him intended or otherwise. Except Tyrion. He thought he did for a second because he wished him dead.

[@neuralmute]

@@mandowarrior123 I'll buy that. *Everyone* at the Purple Wedding was somehow involved in a plot to kill Joffrey, except maybe Tyrion and Cersei, because she actually seemed to like that little bastard. But there were multiple plots in play, it's just a question of which one succeeded first.

[@AlexBB77]

Robert quite savage implicating your doppelgänger in such a way 😉.

[@mikecobalt7005]

:) Excellent, Machiavellian moves from whispers.

[@richardtabor8686]

ooeeerrrrrmerrrgeerrrrd. Your skills at reading are getting so...precise..."by daylight". Excellent...keep it up!!! if only there were a place where we could here you read books...huh...

[@MrAcuriteOf1337]

I've never read Game of Thrones, nor have I watched the TV show, nor that many In Deep Geek videos about it. But this Olenna Tyrell woman reminds me of my late grandma, who I definitely believe would smoke a bitch in a similar fashion, given the need to protect a grandkid and the chance. So I like her already.

[@bekkimcgrath]

Whoever edits these put Tommen gawking at Margaerys chest at 9:31😂😂

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

There a couple of times in the show he seems to do that. I never could decide if that was deliberate stage direction, or just a young actor doing what almost any boy his age would do.

[@drewgoin8849]

8:50 brilliant

[@igorbriskin7746]

Sounds good😊

[@Rengokuo4o6]

I think he actually just choked on the pie.

[@ThePragmo]

Damn! You explained it so well. I kept asking myself who actually killed that kid.

[@scpWyatt]

Did anyone else think the poison pass-off was a bit too convoluted, honestly? Why go through Sansa and the hairnet to pass the poison from Littlefinger to Olenna? They both met frequently enough already, couldn't they have just exchanged it then instead of risking Sansa forgetting to wear the hairnet, having that one specific bead fall out or break, etc? The vial was tiny enough to begin with, so Olenna could have easily hid it or made it part of her own jewelry. I like to think Littlefinger was just like, "poisoning and assassinating lords and kings is getting boring at this point. How about we throw in some razzle--dazzle for style points this time? Let me trust a jeweler, a drunk, and a child to not throw a wrench into any of this."

[@nekomisakisan]

i think you missed the part that littlefinger intentionally wanted put the blame on sansa and tyrion, since tyrion already taked the same poison from pycelle, tyrion already made enough enemies on the capital and sansa isnt very liked on the capital, littlefinger and olenna dont met frenquently (idk how you think that) and littlefinger wanted a reason to sansa flee the capital since he is obsessed since she look like her mother in her youth, is a plan that met all his criteria, blame tyrion and sansa by default, make tyrion die, make her flee and making her a wanted person on the capital so she have way less alies over the continent and trusted him more since he is covering up her true identity as his bastard daughter

[@scpWyatt]

@@nekomisakisan the point you bring up about Littlefinger wanting to rope Sansa into it to get her to flee is a good reason. Everything else is still moot since they could’ve still framed Tyrion since the concept of a smuggled poison gem flask isn’t ever brought up in the trial or ever suggested by anyone that’s looking into the murder, and I could be wrong but aren’t there at least two scenes of Little Finger and Olenna talking prior to the Purple Wedding? Either way, making the plot more complex to get Sansa personally involved so Little Finger could better manipulate her on a personal level sounds like something he’d do so I agree with you on that.

[@nekomisakisan]

@@scpWyatt that is my mistake about the trial and the net being let behind bcause i remember the show doing that not the books, on the show i remember one scene with littlefinger and olena and is after they already met in high garden but in the books oficially we just have the meting they did on high garden where he lied about joffrey being a good guy, i really dont think they really met much after or at all since littlefinger could be using Dontos for that kind of meting, because he is like sansa a "nobody" i think using sansa as smuggler is actually genius, cause she dont have any friends or much people to pay attention to her and she is going to be on the wedding anyway, the poison used look like a dark purple crystal, if anybody else used jewelry with amethysts people will notice that one of them look odd or even missing after the assassination, and most of noble woman have her own noble maids that help and dress her and they would notice and gossip, and sansa dont have nobody to pay attention on her, her maid is a common woman that a few people know is actually a whore, she have no ways to know is fake jewelry to gossip the only thing i really think is odd on the plan is olenna knowing that the poison is on sansa net since we have no clue on how she knows

[@jonathangoldsmith7832]

Didn’t we already know this years ago? I didn’t even read the book, I only watched your videos and the show, and I’m pretty sure I knew that.

[@SilasGravel]

It would have been hilarious if Olenna just beer pong'd the poison bead into Joffrey's cup from across the wedding.

[@mtverv]

Littlefinger killed Joffrey accidentally while targeting Tyrion. Joffrey ate Tyrion’s Pie not the other way around. Tyrion was the target which means LF was the Perpetrator…

[@americanandpinay]

She must have passed it off to Margery when she spoke to her right after. It probably wasn't in the cup anyway. It was more likely placed in the pie so that the king would be served the first piece.

[@mtverv]

@@americanandpinay nope incorrect. No one switches out Tyrion’s Pie without him or Sansa seeing it. Stop trying to take the facts and twist them to suit your narrative. Use Facts to create Theories not twist Facts to suit Theories…

[@americanandpinay]

@Ryon Reyne stop trying to apply science and reason to where it doesn't exist. And I didn't twist facts. In show and book he coughs after the first bites of pie and demands drink. It was more than likely in the pie. Whether Tyrions or his, or he was given the first slice in the show We are not shown in either show or book how the poison made it from Sansa's body to Joff's mouth, which means you are supposed to speculate and draw your own narrative.

[@eric2500]

@@mtverv Okay this is a TV show and a book series where we do this for FUN. There is not "twisting facts", it is interpretting fiction.

[@eric2500]

@@americanandpinay This is fiction, We are supposed to have some FUN with it... i for instance now think it was a chemical combination from two separate OR COORDINATED attempts on the life of Joffrey, Tyrion, or both.

[@mandowarrior123]

Melisandre of course! Nah I thought the whole point was EVERYONE except Tyrion did it. Did nobody get that impression? They all seperately poisoned him.

[@guibox3]

Melisandra should have resurrected Joffery so they could do it again to him.

[@whatthefrerejacques]

It's absurd how quickly I click on these videos.

[@matthewjacobthefifth]

maybe the one that killed joffrey is the friends we made along the way.

[@eric2500]

If almost everyone killed him or wanted him dead, they would of course do well to accuse the one person who did not kill him - Tyrion!

[@kevin_6217]

What fantastic writing, "it weighed nothing more than a breath of air". A breath of air that he won't be taking.

[@SilortheBlade]

It's been a while since i have read the books, but I recall it being pretty clear it was the Tyrell grandmother who did it, or at least orchestrated it.

[@FupaDoncic]

It was without a doubt Littlefinger instigating Olenna. He tried to lay it out for Ned to take advantage, saw an opening since Ned was going to act anyway. He gave Olenna power in the capital in exchange for the key to the North, Sansa. Olenna just didn’t expect the Sparrow. Meanwhile, Littlefinger didn’t know the North didn’t play the game like the Capital.

[@arefrigerator396]

I really miss Game of Thrones and the excitement of each episode as it aired.

[@saltlakeatrocity9771]

I think the concept of Littlefinger's ability to manipulate Joffrey is something that is often overlooked because its (unfortunately) never outright shown to us directly, but i think was used by George to justify alot of Joffrey's actions. Choosing to kill Ned rather than heed his mother's advice---Joffrey always had it in him, but i feel like Joffrey's "soft hearts of women" line always felt like something fed to him by Peter to nudge him in that direction. And Joffrey choosing to make Tyrion his cupbearer right before his cup is used to kill him just feels far too convenient for Littlefinger not having some manipulative role in that as well.

[@ArrakisHeir88]

I just love Joff's magical size changing chalice. Tyrion remarks that it's nearly as big as he is, but Joff lifts it one handed while full of wine later on.

[@jamesgravil9162]

"It was Littlefinger's plan all along, not Ser Dontos's." Well, obviously. Dontos couldn't plan his way out of a paper bag.

[@Edmures_rampant_manhood]

He sure as hell could plan his way into a bottle of cheap wine, though. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@renferal5290]

When I came to the part of Joffery dying in the book, I did a happy dance!! I was so happy he died!! LOL

[@woogywips]

Great video as always, though perhaps this was your least needed one since it was pretty well spelled out in the books. If you're looking for new authors with deep and complex lore to delve into and analyze, have you considered Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere universe? It's not as elegant as ASoIaF or LotR, but the amount of forethought and depth to the stories, lore, and magic systems is staggering and well-constructed. He's also extremely productive with multiple books coming out per year and is renowned for his interactions with his fans, answering all sorts of questions about minute details. In fact, his fans have cataloged each question and answer as number, so-called "Words of Brandon." His Cosmere series starts out conservative with each book almost entirely self-contained and only a few hints of connectivity, but eventually the books become more and more interconnected with characters from one series literally world-hopping to another leaving fans to wonder which innocuous side-character might in fact be a familiar face from another book.

[@ashmeadowphoenix]

Obviously he did need to make this video, since you still got people in the comments a) not realizing Olenna is right there when Tyrion first gets made cupbearer because she and Margaery are trying to convince Joffrey to go back to his damn seat, so she's in fact near the cup before the last time Joffrey drinks it, and b) not realizing that Joffrey drinks some wine and then immediately after takes a handful of pie, and coughs so it's actually really clear it's the wine and not the pie that precipitated the poison, as that is what's actually gotten into his gullet when the coughing happens. Like...the lad hasn't swallowed that pie enough for the poison to take effect, he's literally still spitting out crust flakes when he first coughs. He thinks it's dry...because his mouth is already dry when he starts eating it. So yeah, he did need to spell it out.

[@eric2500]

THANKS!

[@sardonically-inclined7645]

Cersei, by mistake, trying to kill Tyrion, then repressed it deep.

[@ruck27]

But why then the whole hairnet?

[@jenniferpearce1052]

@@ruck27 red herring

[@sardonically-inclined7645]

@@ruck27 Separate plan to poison Joffrey shortly after the wedding feast, not during, so she escape under the cover of night, but Joffrey died during the wedding feast. How about that?

[@musculusiv4172]

Probably not Cersei but it would have been a cool plot for sure if it was her!

[@stars-and-clouds]

That is a cool theory

[@Raye938]

I was watching your stream on Sandor being a wight and though you guys missed the chance to call him a (seven pointed) Star Wight.

[@kimdevault4251]

I think the poison was in the cream put on the pie that joffrey put his hand in and took a big bite of before choking .. since joff's big cup was spilt and olena wouldn't have put poison in the cup because margery was drinking out of joffs cup too.

[@johntorres2565]

Robb wasn’t dead when Tywin married Tyrion and Sansa. But it was already in the works and you could say he was a dead man walking.

[@michael69tucker1]

Great video , I’ll watch any song of ice and fire video

[@d00mf00d]

Lady Oleana messes with Sansas hair net at the wedding. She's RIGHT there when the cup is . She put the poison in the cup. Littlefinger had to make a deal with the Tyrells to get them to back the Lannisters, but knowing Joffrey is BAD they had a plan for that too.

[@eric2500]

Stannis is among several people not there who might want him dead. Oberon is among several people who were there who also might want him dead, and are not usually suspected. And how about Varys? Nah. He wants the misrule of Joff, so he can promote F/aegon as better.

[@Azqalihm]

I haven't read the books in like a decade, but if memory serves, it's somewhat implied that Littlefinger was trying to poison Tyrion and Joffjoff died to his own idiocy/cruelty by eating Tyrion's pie.

[@staomruel]

That was the last episode I watched, felt like a perfect ending. My headcanon says the grandma lady poisoned killed him. Haven't regretted it.

[@jackfox5738]

We already have a solid answer on this.

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

I’m 100% convinced Tywin was involved. He liked his other grandson more. Easier to control too.

[@apstrike]

I suppose it's a bit much to condemn GRRM for not being complex enough, but it is odd Tywin is so passive here. Yes, he tries Tyrion, but this is an undereaction to the murder of a Lannister puppet king. He's slipping if he doesn't also investigate the Tyrells and Littlefinger.

[@garychartier8365]

Unless he was, as a couple of people suggest in this thread, responsible himself.

[@apstrike]

@@garychartier8365 That is an interesting take. I'd not considered. My gut reaction is Tywin doesn't skulk around or let other people kill Lannisters. If he thought Joffrey needed to be removed he'd do it himself, either publicly or secretly. But he wouldn't let a Tyrrell get away murder because it would provoke future conspiracies and make him feel like his weak father.

[@SardonicALLY]

I haven't finished the video, but I always assumed that Olenna Tyrell had one of the stones in Marjaery's necklace made of some sort of hardened dried poison and that was in order to have it close to hand at the wedding feast... then she takes it off on pretense of admiring the necklace and hands it off to someone to pop it into Joffrey's goblet. She might have risked putting it in herself if she didn't trust anyone else to do it... probably safer to do it herself.

[@astrinymris9953]

The only thing is, "Why use Sansa to smuggle in the poison?" It's not Westerosi custom to do body searches of high nobility before allowing them entry to high-profile events, so there's no reason Olenna couldn't have smuggled the poison in herself without complicating her mission by involving an unknowing third party.