WATER METH VS (LOW-$) WINDSHIELD WASHER FLUID-WHO WINS? BEST WATER/METH VIDEO EVER! IATS, AF & HP!

[@black99rt]

Richard, thanks for all this testing. I don't know if it is mentioned in the video, but I believe the base fuel for this test was e85. I think that is critical to note for the viewers. If you were to Re-run that pulley on 91 and if you are octane limited you'll see the real world benefit of w/m injection for locations where e85 isn't available, when you can add timing back to get to MBT.

[@fascistpedant758]

Even pure meth is much less effective with E85 than with pump gas.

[@boosted0079]

Yeah I completely agree with this. This test isn't giving us the results many of us are looking for. E85 is NOT that available to everyone to begin with, so using it as the base fuel for testing in my opinion i wrong lol. WM injection would be way more affective with 91,92 and 93 octane since they are more knock limited than E85 would be.

[@Prestiged_peck]

@@boosted0079 even with 100 octane it'd be more effective, E10 is what we need.

[@boosted0079]

@@Prestiged_peck here in Oregon, everything is at least 10% blended by law. I thought every state has the same law? They seem to think charging a dollar more per gallon for "non ethanol premium" is something special though 🙄.

[@Prestiged_peck]

@@boosted0079 ik that I was saying that, testing it against eth free is interesting too. We actually have eth free 87 here and it's more expensive than 93 at the same pump

[@whysoangri]

I think having e85 negated any potential benefit of water meth as you're already running the engine at optimal timing. If this test were to be redone with 91 octane vs 91+ WMI, I wonder if the results may be different. Water meth displaces fuel and air in the combustion chamber, as evidenced by the richer air fuel mixture before making adjustments. If you're unable to take advantage of the increased knock resistance from the water meth, it stands to reason that it would only make less power.

[@Saddedude]

This is true HOWEVER. Methanol brings its own oxygen molecule too the party. Im not a fan of running any water at all and spraying pure meth. -It flashes at a lower temp (colder iats) -it burns cooler in cylinder -it brings its own oxygen molecule so you can spray more fuel for more power -and unlike water it doesnt displace any room for air. I would like too see this test re run with -40c wiper fluid and pure methanol as well as knock detection

[@andriosz]

@@Saddedude So why Germans where running 50-50 water meth blend in their fighter planes? If pure methanol is better?

[@Saddedude]

@@andriosz cost and space. Pure meth requires more volume. And waters basically free.

[@rocketsled74]

@@andriosz the nazi's had a limited amount of methanol for use in the war effort.

[@whysoangri]

I think the reason is that methanol mixtures above 50% are extremely corrosive and require special engineering considerations. Not to mention 100% meth is super dangerous in terms of combustion fumes, burning invisible, and I think it's pretty hard to put out.

[@jimbrown563]

The 32-degree WW-Fluid contains about ~95% Water, almost no Alcohol. On E-85, just running the Engine richer will provide lots of Charge-Cooling, it's just that You can't measure it because it's already in the Cylinder, but it still improves Detonation-Resistance substantially. Water-Injection is great stuff, but it only works well with super-fine atomization, which usually only comes with super-high-pressures ( 200 to 1000 psi), and special "Impingement" Nozzles that turn the water into a Fog, instead of "droplets". The big advantage to Water-Injection is in allowing more Boost-Pressure, while still maintaining adequate Detonation-Resistance. This Engine is not "Knock-Limited" at the somewhat "low" Boost-Pressures being used, so Water-Injection is of questionable value in this case. . . .

[@2lotusman851]

That's pretty much NACAs position for airplane engines in the 30s and 40s. ---If you are not up against the knock limit with the existing setup, Anti Detonant Injection (ADI) wont do you much good.

[@bcubed72]

@@2lotusman851 Gee, both Allied and Axis pilots made significantly more power with water/meth (it's mostly why we know to do it today). Generally because the increased octane and charge cooling let them turn the boost up safely. (I mean, relatively speaking...there was a war on).

[@JETZcorp]

I'm curious about the fine atomization thing. Fine atomization would certainly do better at reducing the measured intake air temperature, but the important point is that it gets fully evaporated (absorbs heat energy) before ignition. For example, Mazda switched to using a style of fuel injector with "poor" atomization in their direct-injected engines, because they found that liquid fuel hitting and getting atomized by the hot engine parts (particularly the piston) resulted in greatly improved cooling and detonation resistance. That's how they run Skyactiv engines at 13:1 compression on California 87 octane. Obviously it's a little different since they're shooting jets of it straight into the piston dome, but it shows that the atomization process itself can provide cooling power. I assume there's data proving me wrong, and I'm interested to know how and why it works.

[@jimbrown563]

@@JETZcorp Any liquid that does not get turned into a vapor will seriously cause the Oil to be contaminated. BAD BAD BAD !!!!!

[@calvinevans8305]

Windshield fluid with no antifreeze, 32 + with 50/50 water and ethanol is the dollar store boost juice. The blue dye anodizes the Pistons and valves. I've seen the inside of an LS1 that ran pump gas and dollar store boost juice. It was really clean and beautiful blue.

[@johndelta00]

To summarize: Water/Methanol Injection is to increase the knock resistance to allow for an increase in boost pressure. W/M without an increase of boost or timing is of little benefit.

[@aaronliddell4280]

Well stated 👍

[@bearfoot25]

Also since it was already running E85 the benefits arent as large. Basically all the W/M was doing is cooling down the Supercharger meaning cooler air charge. If he had done this with 91 or 93 pump gas the differences would have been larger.

[@GapSauceYoutube]

Interestingly, I made no gain on the dyno, but picked up mph at the strip on a hot day with back to back run testing without altering the tune. There is a video on my channel of it.

[@elijahfrancis9889]

@@GapSauceKZbin more consistent power, less heat soak. Ran nearer to dyno number

[@beardedforlife3740]

The biggest reason to use W/M injection is to reduce air charge temp. The knock resistance is the added benefit

[@STREETMACHINETV]

Great test, which confirms my own experiences. Water/Meth will help cool the intake charge and control detonation but won't make more horsepower

[@cloudshe]

i think the point is that it lets you run higher boost without detonation, and that's what gives you more power. fyi in the DC-6/R2800 we used water injection on takeoff, but i was told the alcohol in the recommended mix was just to keep it fm freezing. so in s calif we just used plain water/ 29.5 in boost on 100LL avgas

[@denisohbrien]

Just to echo what everyone is saying , my 1.4 16v turbo was knock limited to 19psi on pump fuel , every time I went over 19psi regardless of timing it'd crack pistons and obv knock like mad. Water meth allowed 30psi of boost and decent timing. Allowing the car to go from a 12.4 to an 11.9 in the 1/4

[@brettus9115]

Your dedication towards showing those pistons who's boss is admirable 🤟

[@denisohbrien]

@@brettus9115 in the UK, the 1.4 16v rover k-series was £50 from any breakers(at the time) and you were tripping over them, when I cracked a ring-land id just swap the bottom end out in an evening and start again lol oh to be youth full and have free time again!

[@frankorobinson1540]

Try nitrous as a charge air cooler 😎 😜 nitrous and boost,what a combination 👌

[@HassanEido1]

You didn't make more power because you were on E85, you basically have all the octane you need. More timing won't net you any gains if you're at mbt. Run the test on pump gas and you'll see a difference , big one.

[@akassasin5768]

That's not the point. This was to show charge temp. All of his long time viewers understand temp doesn't mean power. Temp means timing can be changed.

[@InitialDIYmods]

@@akassasin5768 video title says "IATS, AF & HP" at the end so it kinda is the point. Timing advance would make a huge difference and e85 means you're much closer to or already at MBT. Basically, this wouldn't add any power with this configuration. If this was pump 93 or 91 since it's California, then we would likely see power closer to these e85 numbers vs the pump 91 numbers

[@sciewter]

@@InitialDIYmods He is simply testing meth spray here to compare the differences in HP and charge air temp etc. He wasn't tuning to hit to hp numbers. Leaving the variables the same to test the different meth spray tells how well each one works at cooling charge air temp.

[@InitialDIYmods]

@@sciewter If you're comparing two different things in a scenario that stops any changes from having an impact, it's not a very effective comparison. The e85 is already doing what the methanol is supposed to do, so of course the benefits are negated. He easily could have done it with 91 octane, shown the meth spray with no tuning, then tuned it (i.e. increased timing which would get the nearly same results as e85) and it would show a true comparison. And you can't say well tuning adds effort or time because he retunes these engines all the time to compare intercoolers, pipe sizing, superchargers, different turbos, heads, etc. so it's the same extra step done in many other of his videos. I'm not trashing him in any way, just agreeing that the video didn't really compare meth injection in a worthwhile scenario to say it doesn't have a benefits. Methanol is very similar to ethanol in BTUs (methanol has a little less while having a higher octane rating which allows for more timing advance). Timing advance is where most power is made, but it's only available when the engine is knock limited which is usually not true on street cars with e85. When it comes to washer spray, the temperature rating of -20 rated meth is about 70% water and 30% methanol but it's not available in most southern states with warmer climates. Compare that with the 32 degree fluid which has

[@georgemiranda-nz2fd]

Had it been turbocharged it would have seen a difference in power not just by mbt but increase in boost pressure

[@InitialDIYmods]

As an FYI, the +32F fluid is just distilled water with blue dye in it. I would add about 4-5 bottles of heet (depending on the ratio I want) into a 1 gallon container then top up with blue washer fluid (I prefer having some sort of colored fluid to find leaks and what not). This is way cheaper and easier to get in a pinch like on the way to the race track. A gallon would be about $5 - $7. I typically by a 5 gallon drum of methanol and mix my own (VERY CAREFULLY as it burns with a clear flame and measure by mass not volume). However, if I am on a road trip or out and about, I know I can fill up at any autozone or walmart. Lastly, at least in my application (turbo 3.8 GDI V6 with 11.5:1 compression ratio running 93 pump plus 50/50 meth water injection with 6 port inject nozzles at 1 gpm each), I picked up about 30-40 rwhp. That being said, it took a lot more than 1 degree of timing to get those gains AND most importantly, I can't run that boost without meth because it would cause serious knock. I don't recall the advance needed, but it may have been more in the 4 to 5+ degrees range.

[@100pyatt]

NO. It contains detergent additive that causes cramkcase oil degradation. This has been proven 15 years ago. Mix your own Distilled water + Methanol it's cheap and the safest

[@bleach_drink_me]

I pick up -20 washer fluid and 2 bottles of heet when I am on the road. Seems to get to about 50% . I mix it like you mentioned. I have also used 91% isopropyl in a pinch. I have 2 cars that use WMI one of them isn't intercooled and I count on it. The other car is intercooled but uses WMI for my higher boost/timing map. If it runs out I can switch maps and no big deal.

[@andyharman3022]

Another effect I would like to see tested is where the water-methanol is injected. Injecting it at the supercharger inlet, takes the place of some air which the supercharger would otherwise be able to stuff into the engine. If the water-methanol was injected after the supercharger this would increase air flow because the supercharger would just be pumping air. When water-methanol injection was originally developed for WW2 aircraft engines, it was called MW50 (methanol-water 50%). There was a "de-richment" valve that adjusted the air-fuel ratio to maintain peak power. The original intent was not to increase power, only to suppress detonation. The methanol was included as antifreeze to keep the water from freezing at -40F when flying at 30,000 feet.

[@r.d.riddle2068]

I was really surprised. I never would have thought you needed to lean it out with a cooler, denser air mass. Without the dyno and A/F ratio data, I would have been chasing it in the wrong direction for sure. Another great video!

[@gmcnelly2468]

The world war II fighters had a de-enrichment mechanism (on the carburetor) when the water injection kicked in.

[@phillipshelton2332]

Methanol is a fuel as well. When it burns it uses some of the available oxygen.

[@OoheavysackoO]

Also brings a little oxygen to the table. @@phillipshelton2332

[@rolandtamaccio3285]

In our Curtiss Wright 3350, ( cube ), 3,000 horse, the fifty fifty water meth, was used mostly as an anti detonate . The low rpm and huge combustion chambers are very knock prone . By our, I mean the US Air Force . This mixture, I believe, was brought in simultaneously with the high speed , second level of boost from the two speed centrifugal supercharger . On edit, now that I think of it the system was called ADI, anti detonate injection . Been awhile, 53 plus years .

[@nyplantingsgardendesigners5645]

Good stuff man. 2 speed supercharger! now that is cool.

[@michaelgideon8944]

Late to the party but here is another tidbit from P and W.. Not all alcohols are created equal. Methanol and ethanol work well but isopropyl was actually worse. Maybe this is what is going on with the washer fluid. Edit: The 32F fluid doesn't have any alcohol listed on the SDS. It's probably just water and soap. The -20 Is only 35% meth so there's not enough alcohol to offset the oxygen displaced by the water volume.

[@bcbloc02]

Water does not burn, it does however displace oxygen so water injection in and of itself will always lower your hp versus not having it. The only time you will see gains is with big intake temps and high boost where the increase in charge denisty is greater than what the water is displacing. A proper sized intercooler capable of keeping charge temps in check will always be the most powerful route over water injection.

[@tondaporter3709]

This is why I absolutely love Richard. Much love to you Richard!

[@cuzz63]

I had a water/meth injection on my Chevelle back in the 80's I had 11:1 compression and it was hard to find 98 octane so I added the injection system to keep some timing.

[@Mikeoxhard24_7]

if you can find the msds (material safety data sheet) for the wiper fluid it will tell you the ratio of water to meth and any other ingredients. this is great if you’re looking for a certain blend.

[@fascistpedant758]

For the Peak -20, the SDS says 33%methanol/67% water.

[@superkillr]

​@@fascistpedant758 I would bet that is best case scenario.

[@TURBOMAGNUM]

LOVE this channel! I use an 80HP shot of nitrous for my cooling needs, only on demand. Works like a champ, plus adds HP! Single fogger nozzle just before the carb hat. And I can tailor the A\F ratio with a single jet change instead of dipping into the carb tuning. For the cost of a meth setup a guy could buy a used nitrous kit like a cheater and still be money ahead. After all, there's only so much horsepower you can run on the street. You don't have to run around all the time with maximum boost. And I only use the nitrous when it's called for at the track or with a pesky competitor on the street. This method isn't for everyone, just the way I do it. Again, Iove this channel. Richard is doing the hot rod world a favor by having this channel. Kuddos brother!

[@richardholdener1727]

nitrous is actually not a good cooling agent-not enough of it to make a sizable change in charge cooling. If you have a carb-you already have the cooling you need-the nitrous just adds power

[@wchrvp]

Outstanding explanation of the necessity of tuning the engine when adding water/methanol to the mix. My 595 Competizione's air mix without tuning was lower than the dyno could accurately read. However, with persistence and expertise, my mechanic has the car running 27 lbs boost and achieving 285 HP safely.

[@Grand_PrixGTP]

I love watching your 3800 videos!! I just started really modding my 3800 and I love your content it really motivated me!🤘

[@davidreed9046]

Great video with the dyno runs to illustrate change. Very informative. I will say that my understanding is that adding w/m injection was so that you could advance timing and/or increase boost while still being within a normal temp ranges. The power would come from those changes, not the w/m injection. Please correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m still learning.

[@mikepike6941]

I've always been a silent subscriber but this guy's cool in my books keep up the good work

[@richardholdener1727]

I appreciate that!

[@jamest.5001]

You can add a bottle of HEET to the fluid to get the methanol content up, if needed! I always heard a 50/50 mix is best,. But seems a closer to100% methanol would possibly work better for high compression boost or NA engines, being boost would likely be lower, and less actual cooling needed, but higher octane is a big help with high compression.. I have heard methanol is equal to 120+ octane, I'm very interested in this stuff!!

[@NCSTANGGUY]

I always mix two bottles of HEET to half a container of -20 washer fluid to get the methanol content to where I want it.

[@brettus9115]

50/50 just happens to be the best mix for optimum charge cooling while raising octane with the methanol and is almost inflammable at the same time. The mix with pump gas/petrol is equivalent to using C16. If using 100% methanol I'd recommend compression fittings and not push lock due to a possibility of leaks and Direct Port injection instead of in the charge pipe.

[@fascistpedant758]

Boost Juice is 49% meth and 51% water. You could make it for half price with a gallon of methyl hydrate from the hardware store and a gallon of distilled water.

[@Dylanschillin]

Even from the gas station in some cases

[@garyderian4350]

Using water or water alcohol to cool the charge results in vapor taking up volume in the engine, effectively reducing boost. Water injection ideally has atomized but not vaporized water introduced into the cylinder. This will quench detonation. The atomized water is liquid and takes up little volume. It vaporizes during the compression stroke absorbing heat.

[@patonbike]

Regarding subtracting fuel to compensate for AFR to get back to target AFR... @6:50 Shouldn't it NOT really matter that much, because you're adding methanol (not gasoline) , and methanol's stoich ratio is very low? So when you see the AFR going from 12:1 to 10.2,,, that 10.2 as a gasoline/meth combination should NOT have anywhere near the same (negative) affect on the power as changing the AFR from 12:0 to 10.2 on straight gasoline. That doesn't seem to match what your findings were though(?) I wonder why not?

[@richardholdener1727]

you are forgetting that it also made less power (same fuel plus less power = richer mixture)

[@zokusharuuku1091]

Wow I was shocked to see the power drop at the end, tons of people are certain windshield washer fluid will be great but I’m glad to see these results

[@johnlewis8156]

Perfect timing! I'm finishing up a draw through carb setup and was wondering if I could make washer fluid to work?!

[@hoost3056]

Oldsmobile did it with their turbo car back in 1962. Look it up.

[@chrismuncey3861]

Yes I've been hoping you would do something like this. It would be fun to see if you could do some test on improving the distribution problems in the manifold with water method

[@bradyzq]

Up here in the Canada, - 40 degree windshield washer is the norm. It's almost 50-50. I bet it would be indistinguishable from the Boost Juice.

[@frankorobinson1540]

I myself prefer nitrous as a intake charge cooler when there's no place for a cooler 😎 😜 cheep and cool ,with benefits, lol

[@qwertbumbi]

In my opinion, in turbocharged systems, if the fluid is injected after the compressor wheel, the results are better, and it helps spool up the turbo on the hot side.

[@Matp345]

This is something I've always wondered about. Let's hear it Richard!.

[@nelsonacerbi]

Felicitaciones por el vídeo muchas gracias por el trabajo Cuando colocas el inyector en esa posición,lejos de la válvula de admisión entra gasifcado ,perdiendo así una de sus grandes ventajas que es el aumento de presión por la dilatación del agua/ metanol y la absorción de la temperatura en camara por el interesante" calor latente" de ambos componentes. Dentro de la camara aumenta la presión en los primeros grados después del PMI algo como un 20 % , ahí está la potencia. SALUDOS

[@calvinevans8305]

What if the engine ran on 91 octane and ran boost juice? What would happen if you put e85 in the boost cooler? I can't get e85 from the pump anyway. Thanks for the testing that you do.

[@realspeedauto]

This matches my experience. I would love to see this same test run on 93 (or 91) octane E10 gasoline, along with an analysis of how much timing you could add with each of the three fluids compared to what you can run with no injection. Now we have a pretty good idea of that the boost juice and washer fluid do for temperature. Next we need to see what each one does for detonation resistance.

[@sc358.]

Not sure how controlled the tests were but on Gunpowder & Gasoline S15, E17 they ran similar tests. You could get yourself a plex knock monitor and find out for yourself, sure each application will be a little different. Get a baseline with tune backed off. Then carefully induce some intentional knock, monitored with the plex. Then go back to original and make the changes. The plex or any good knock device will help ya find safe limitations.

[@patonbike]

It seems almost like the real useful part of water meth is IAT, not detonation resistance but it is not 100% clear. To get the most bang without E85 maybe you need Torco or Boostane for detonation resistance + Water Meth for IATs.

[@patonbike]

I don't quite understand why enrichening the fuel with methanol decreases the power so much when the stoich ratio of Methanol is very low. Any thoughts on this? In my head... since the stoich ratio is so rich, Throwing quite a bit of methanol at the motor should not have a big negative impact on power but that doesn't seem to match what Richard found here.

[@redbeardracing9340]

Am I in before everybody asks about straight methanol or blends of 50%-100% methanol? What if you have ice in the boost juice? (Or put the jug in a tub of ice water) Can you use less volume and get lower temps? See my profile picture for how I feel about no intercooler running washer fluid.

[@BoostedEP3]

I used to add Heet to the windshield washer fluid. Used to be able to get a bottle of Heet for $1 and I think it's like 98% methanol.

[@madevilmustang2824]

On a dyno, I did some pulls with a single stage system on and then one with the system off, no changes in my tune for AF. But I did have an air temp spark adder setup. On a Vorteched 347. The results were pretty big. 528rwhp no meth, 575 with meth. AF with no meth was 11.7, AF with meth was about 10.5. Mix was 50/50 pure methanol with distilled water. When I looked at my logs I had more timing tossed in which is likely what helped the HP jump. The hard part about your test on this specific setup is those eaton M90/M112 (on the cobras) don't really pick up any power with methanol/water. It's been tried a ton on the SVTp forum many times. I think the best results came from someone that did a direct port injection with the injectors inside the intake manifold after the blower and intercooler with an M90/M112.

[@GTM697]

Awesome video, helped me understand water/meth a lot.

[@kbommer64]

I have this system on my 7.3 powerstroke. Using 3 #5 injectors has a beneficial effect on both HP and torque. Does take some testing to get the right setting without causing combustion quench from too much water that is in the washer fluid. Would like to try straight methanol sometime to see what happens, though refilling the 7 gallon tank each time would get expensive.

[@richardholdener1727]

ADDING FUEL TO A DIESEL ADDS POWER

[@devtavares2190]

How many miles do you typically get on one 7 gallon tank? How do you like your system? Also where did you put the three injectors?

[@kbommer64]

@@devtavares2190 Maybe just over 300 miles or so, depending how often I mash the Throttle. As for injector placement, for the primary, it is in the up pipe near the A/C compressor. The other 2 are mounted in an AFE spider, located on each side going down to each head. The spider has the bungs already in place that was perfect for placement of the injectors.

[@JC-gw3yo]

Invaluable information Richard. Thank you for all your hard work

[@mr.g.beetle]

On my turbo Beetle, by adding water/meth and an additional 5 psi boost, I went from 352 awhp to 416 awhp at the flip of a switch. (That's right, I said all wheel hp) I also buy 5 gals of methanol and mix my own with distilled water at a cost of about $4.50 a gal. Thanks for the great video.

[@richardholdener1727]

5 psi of boost does wonders

[@The_Performance_Laboratory]

Plot > Preferences > Settings > Left Y-Axis > Scaling > "Manual"

[@craighansen7594]

Please expand on this test. I run a natural aspirated V8, compression ratio 10.75:1 with water methanol injection and pump premium gas. I use winter, below freezing rated windshield washer fluid and a simple single stage vacuum switch with low pressure pump. It really runs much better with this simple system at full throttle. I really should add a good af ratio sensor but could the carb just be a little lean to start with? More testing data would really help me steer my tuning in the right direction.

[@atlasdelmar]

To echo what everyone one else has commented; thank you for taking the time to do this "comparison" however, I believe the reason a lot of people use -30 to -45 windshield washer fluid as a cheap alternative to Boost Juice is the simple fact that any additional methanol would increase the octane level of the base fuel with an added benefit of cooling the AIT. If you were to replicate the test but with regular 89/91/93 octane with the smallest nozzle possible and then with the largest nozzle possible, I'm pretty sure your video would brake the half million views mark within the first month. However that doesn't mean that there wasn't a valuable take away from your comparison. If a person wanted to just combat the AIT and add a security blanket to combat knock running the smallest nozzle would not negatively affect the power output but would aid in the cooling department. Therefore if your not going to tune for it, run the smallest nozzle possible.

[@Boostlee2023]

Also, methanol isn’t only for cooling but if you use it in 100% you get the cooling, the octane boost and it can kinda stretch out a fuel system

[@jasonbirch1182]

So wait, you weren't able to tune the "no water meth system" numbers back in with the washer fluids at all? So it actually just cools your charge and kills power? I think this should be revisited with pump gas. It will make more difference in timing adjustability.

[@drtb69]

On my diesel 3.0 tdi, I use washer fluid, it's always worked fantastic and mpa in Canada tuned my ECU and it rips.

[@richardholdener1727]

yes-on a diesel

[@MrScottt28]

Stunning. I have never seen a comparison done with actual numbers. Temp drop is phenomenal. So too is the drop in hp with the washer fluid. Sure seems like the Snow products are use specific. We need to see more tests at elevated boost levels. Im also wondering about "boost juice mileage". Is there a way to estimate the amount of boost juice used per mile or??

[@blownfox]

Great video so basically it just makes is safer to run more boost,not like they advertise to add lots of HP

[@droppedf100]

Like many have said I’d like to see the same test performed with straight 91-93 octane and meth. Also the difference between e85 and 91-93 would be interesting too

[@calvinevans8305]

5:00 some systems have an adjustment on the pump. Mine is 100, 150, And 200 psi system pressure as well as a low and high progressive setting so that you don't load up.

[@chrishorst6993]

Water Methanol works real good on Diesels. People run cold weather washer fluid even though it doesn’t have as much Methanol in it

[@MonzaRacer]

okay Richard well I would agree with you on the boost juice being the best design of course because snow wouldn't have designed it that way unless they wanted to because it made more power. but the biggest reason on a 3800 around water Mass injection or even just water injection is to get cooler charger and keep it from rattling the Pistons out of the block. the biggest issue with these blower cars on 3800s is when you start pushing the boost higher your cylinder to peak temperatures get too high and you start rattling the Pistons around in the cylinders and they chip a piston

[@busslayer4790]

I find boost juice works great keeping my windows clean.

[@patonbike]

very interesting to see the power loss as the water content rises. The 32F is just water and detergent , probably. In the NorthEast here you can get -25 F wiper fluid which is somewhere > 30% alcohol. Another thing you can do is buy -25 F wiper fluid, and then displace some of it with straight methanol (yellow heet). You can use a beer refractometer ($25) to get a good idea of alcohol content. Regarding timing, if adding more timing doesn't add more power you can add more boost :) In my experience on a 10:1 port injection motor running boost in the teens with an intercooler, and 93 octane as a base fuel, the motor would simply blow up (crack pistons) without water meth and/or running stupid low ignition timing. Water meth injection is the absolutely key to running "normal" NA compression + boost when E85 is unavailable.

[@MrJake-yx8ll]

Richard it would be interesting to see you take a Ford Cleveland two-barrel head with open Chambers and bring up the compression ratio by the usual methods ...decking the head during the valve job adding Pistons with maximum Street compression ratio and a cam design that helps with compression ratio as well. Okay so now you started with something like a 400m motor a smog motor NOW has decent compression However great flowing heads that are also prone to detonation. So here we go-'the challenge is the ignition timing. We know that motor could rattle itself to death on 91 octane if not careful with the build/tune so the question is what can you do to maximize your fuel/air ratio and your maximum amount of ignition advance? One way would be to take the high compression motor on the dyno with race gas and tune it with both fuel air ratio and ignition advance to gain maximum horsepower and then replace the gas with 91 octane pump gas snd Water methanol injection and see if you can get similar numbers without damaging the motor. Pilots in World War II had high-performance supercharged engines in their fighter planes but they cannot rely on the octane of fuel because of wartime conditions therefore in addition to water methanol injection they also were able to control boost and ignition advance from the cockpit. I know I'm going Baja-ing here but it's worth mentioning that I remember reading how water injection alone could do the trick but in fighter plane application you had the issue of freezing ergo the addition of Methanol to fix that problem ❤ thank you for the great testing Richard you rock to no end we love your show keep up the good work!

[@johnkraft7461]

I totally agree, this would be a good test you propose ! I am in Australia and we have the tiny 56cc closed chamber Cleveland head that everyone says will put compression too high on a 4" bore x 3.5" stroke 351. BUT - what if you run water/meth injection on it that equals about 11.5:1 N/A, with a carb ? THAT'S the test I wanna see ! Saving your motor, while running cheaper lower octane fuel, AND increasing power ? 💪🙌

[@MrJake-yx8ll]

@@johnkraft7461 Dear Messrs Kraft and Holdener-- Indeed there's a couple of ways to look at this.... The idea originally proposed was to take the open chamber two Barrel Cleveland heads because after all Cleveland heads are just fantastic at flowing and the two Barrel open chamber heads give you great low end response however the open chamber design is prone to detonation......so if you start with for example a 400m and open chamber two barrel heads and 11 to 1 compression ratio put it on your Dyno with 100 octane unleaded race gas and then dial in the amount of Ignition Advance required to maximize your horsepower and torque curve without water methanol injection--well then that becomes your control profile A. At this point you change out the fuel to unleaded pump gas and here in California that's going to mean around 91 octane and see if you can safely replicate the horsepower / torque curve throughout the entire range with the supplement of water methanol injection. That becomes test engine profile B. Next you introduce a Ford Cleveland engine set-up to simulate the situation they have in Australia. Now this is going to be where things get interesting because of the argument that squish area or quench heads while being disastrous for emissions are great for minimizing detonation and death rattle. But once again the question is can you Stave off the negative effects of low octane fuel by supplementing with water methanol injection? In all cases you need a side by side comparison of the engine being run with the 100 octane race gas first and without water methanol injection and then change over to 91 octane pump gas with water methanol injection. This is also a great opportunity to match up the water methanol injection system with a profiled ignition system so for example pairing a Snow water methanol injection unit with a MSD programmable ignition box--it would be very interesting to see when you start introducing the water methanol spray and how much in order to maximize your ability to climb up the ignition advance curve as rapidly as possible while the engine is coming up on RPM's. Richard! Crikey!! we bloody well owe this testb to Mr Kraft and our comrades over in Australia. Good on them for the dedication and devotion they've put into the Ford Cleveland platform. I will also add that all of the Cleveland speed parts made in Australia that I have ever used have been top quality and expertly engineered. And if you need a hand spinning winches wrenches I'll be right there to change out the sockets before you even know it and I'll bring the pizzas I only live 20 miles from the Dyno facility where you test. Heck if you really want to get snazzy I have both a set of four barrel quech chamber Cleveland heads (BOSS 351) as well as a set of Australian two barrel quench chamber heads. We can go to Pick Your Part to find the open chamber heads off a 351m or 400m truck motor. Right then--let's get on with it!

[@BlytheLifeRacing]

I make my own 50/50 water and M1 mix, air temps stay around 110. I use it to cool the air to keep it safe to run more boost, regularly run 30psi with no intercooler. 9 Injectors are almost enough to run the engine alone, and makes a huge difference in afr. Little dangerous if the meth doesn’t come on you are going to be in a very lean condition, I suppose same can be said for any critical system though.

[@jonathan7744]

Could you show the boost pressure change, or was there even a pressure change?

[@charlieodom9107]

You have to be careful buying windshield washer fluid, as many have Ethylene Glycol in them. It is best to view the Material SDS of the specific one before purchase. The one I use has a methanol content of over 30%, then I add about 25oz of pure methanol to achieve a 50% mix. I mix one gallon of methanol with 5 gallons of windshield washer fluid to get 50% methanol in 6 gallons. This is still way cheaper than the Boost Juice.

[@jeffevans1534]

There is a way to get cooler charges using water injection without injecting a greater volume. And this would at the same time alter the AF less. In terms of latent heat of evaporation nitromethane is superior to methanol. Also it requires far more of it per a given mass of air to achieve a chemically correct air:fuel ratio. Then of course it bears it's own oxygen, producing nitrous as a combustion product. If the pump lines and fittings can hold up to the caustic nature of something like a a 50:25:25 water:methanol:nitro mixture. Wouldn't mind seeing that test, as well as a water injection with E85 fuel test, on a forced induction application.

[@mr.g.beetle]

Extra 5 psi of boost made possible by the water/meth. Extra fuel for the extra air. Injector pulse width actually went down.

[@8power857]

Richard it would have been good to also show comparison to a home mixed 50/50 water/methanol mix.

[@michaelblacktree]

Wow, that was a lot of testing! The results were pretty surprising, too.

[@MrBlackbutang]

I am running isopropyl alcohol. Also depending on where you inject it !

[@xozindustries7451]

Great test, this is one of those truth in advertising tests, it does lower the IATs, but they never show that it kills power. Did you ever get it to tune back up to the best power output? Just remember that you are displacing air and fuel with a non combustible liquid, even worse the E85 will absorb that moisture as well. I’d like to see what the EGT difference is with the water meth injection as well, just as a point of comparison to see if it does help or hurt combustion efficiency

[@smiller225]

He is comparing it to an e85 run. Most people that run water/meth do so on top of pump 91 or 93

[@ryandoyle4344]

Great data, give us all of the information! Future test please, Pump gas plus M1... ALKY CONTROL methanol injection system

[@mikeskidmore6754]

I bought a 55 gallon Drum of Methanol .. I used to purchase windshield washer fluid for 99 cents per gallon ..

[@scottm7341]

Was the Holley hp running open loop? I wonder if you could run it closed loop and let the ecm see the a/f drop, and lean out the fuel flow automatically when the water/meth was flowing.

[@drloch6174]

Exactly. My guess is the Holley wasn't closed loop or it would try to adjust for the change.

[@drloch6174]

He replied to another that he doesn't run closed loop, so that answers that. My question would be why not use the closed capability of the controller to adjust for the change.....

[@richardholdener1727]

I ALJUSTED THE AF SO EVERY CURVE WAS THE SAME (NO WM, SNOW, 32, -20)

[@turbojoe9554]

suggestion. Take one of your engines that normally runs on gasoline. I don't think it would matter for the testing purposes, which one you use. Dyno it on gasoline (C12, 93, Q16, whatever) and then dyno it on Methanol. Let's see what the differences are, and if you want to play with it feel free to do so. A lot of us want to see what these things will do on straight methanol vs 93 (or whatever) fuel

[@salvatorehayes2753]

My Favorite Part About Water Methonal Is How Clean It Keeps The Pistons And Ring Lands. My Pump Gas Turbo 3800 With 215,000 Miles Was Surprisingly Clean. I Could Read The Part Numbers On Tops Of Pistons. And The Rings Were Not All Gunked Up. I Don't Realize How Clean It Kept It Untill I Was Gapping Rings On A 150,000 5.7 Hemi lol. The Amount Of Carbon On Pistons And How Stuck The Rings Were Was Insane. Gapping The Rings Was Easy, Cleaning The Rings And Ring Lands Was A Nightmare lol

[@richardholdener1727]

THE E85 KEEPS IT CLEAN TOO

[@lacboiatl]

I'm on 93 and use the washer fluid and I can tell when I cut the injection system off. My engine screams when I have it on. Xlrv is known to heat soak but I can get more runs in with the snow performance system. I use to add heet to the orange rain-x washer fluid now I use regular blue fluid. I noticed my leds both light up green with the blue fluid but anything else it lights up green on one side and red on the other. So I stopped using orange and heet mix

[@AtticAZ]

Retune is not necessary is you use it for IAT cooling. I have a supercharged V6. My nozzle is mounted just after the intercooler so the boost juice evaporates in time to just cool the air. I see 43 degrees cooling and 50ish more HP, because without it the ECU pulls 4 degrees, due to knock. My last run today, IAT started at 130 degrees and dropped to 87. But then again, I am centrifugal with an intercooler. I am running a 8gph.

[@jamesmeadows5406]

Wish you would have tested actual mixed methanol at varying percents.

[@applebitefool]

Only thing we can get better quality for cheaper in Canada. Just got 4 gals of high quality methanol for 10$. Use to run it with 50% water in my big turbo srt4. Never got any detonation on 91 octane and made 420 whp.

[@shaneshane1379]

Lowering charge air temp with oxidizers will only lower the temp, but no gain in power. Creating air density by cooling the charge air creates power and lowers temp, but air density can not be creating when cluttered up with washer fluid. The meth injection has always been a low buck easy way to fight detonation, not to create power.

[@PhelpsyTattoo]

Yenko turbo camaro utilized windshield washer fluid I believe

[@billclark5943]

Richard, it's good to see the charge temp drop with water/meth which should give a detonation buffer but it would be interesting to test high ratios or even 100% methanol to see the effect and how the engine will respond to significantly more timing with mixture correction. I would guess some calculations would be in order to determine the correct A/F ratio since you would be using the methanol as part of the fuel load and not just for cooling.

[@mp5778]

Would like to see the test with pure water, no meth and also with injecting gasoline instead of the water-meth. Would water only change the afr? After adjusting back to target afr for the richer afr when injecting gasoline, what is the power and decrease in charge air temp? Pure water, then gasoline.

[@petey158]

I was wondering what would happen if you used e85 in a water meth injection system, intead of water meth. Or even placement of the nozzle, is closer better or does putting it way down a pipe or a larger plenum change anything? Your show is fun

[@Wigwhom86]

Best to use meth, it's has a higher octane than e85

[@mathewhoffer4541]

Seems like the meth injection is more for when E85 is not an option in your area ? or when you add PI heads to a NPI short block to raise static compression on pump gas and then decide after the fact you want to run boost but not race fuel ? can you compensate the lower power out put of the washer fluid by changing the pulley size to get more boost because of the charge cooling ? and the limited tuning of a stock PCM versus not having a holley PCM ?

[@The340king]

I am curious of how much the E-85 changed the outcome by getting the low hanging fruit before adding the water methanol injection. In other words, the E-85, as shown in several Engine Masters episodes, cools the intake charge substantially from a gasoline fueled engine. To me, that would be where you might see a bigger difference because you could tune in more timing. It’s just an observation I think is worth considering. Great job as always on documenting things we are all curious about. I am looking at adding it to my non-intercooled 6bt Ciummins pickup. There, it might pick up a bit of torque, but more importantly cool the intake/exhaust temperatures.

[@richardholdener1727]

then it's the timing that adds power

[@The340king]

@richardholdener1727 exactly, but without the water/methanol, you wouldn't be able to do that. It is the catalyst in that equation. It answers the "if not for...." question. In a similar fashion, nitrous doesn't produce power. It adds oxygen so more fuel can be added.

[@invujerry]

The problem with some off the shelf washer fluid, is that it’s actually part coolant, and not methanol. Great for cooking IATs if you want to have a repkicateable results at the track and stave off knock. Not so good for making more power in an e85 scenario.

[@CLINTSTER77COX]

Hey any interest in ethanol separated from 1 gallon of e85 . You should get little over 1.5 gallons of 50/50 out of 1 gallon of separated e85

[@dalechenoweth915]

Thanks for all your hard work over the years Richard. Do you have any data from water meth on diesels?

[@richardholdener1727]

if it has fuel-it adds power to a diesel

[@dalechenoweth915]

@@richardholdener1727 Thanks. Looking forward to the next amr500 vid.

[@niknasstie]

Wonder if water only would of done cooling with out changing the A/F ratio.

[@TheLifeofaMan]

Test with regular gas but use isopropyl alcohol from Walmart. It is 99% alcohol and burns super clean

[@rustyl4090]

-34 Prestone De-Icer with a yellow bottle of Heet. try it. But maybe you can't get it there IDK, very available up here in South Dakota.

[@jeremythefleetguy1693]

Truly appreciate the test. Surprising. If it doesn’t make more power, doesn’t open up the tuning window to make more power, adds more levels of complexity, not sure why someone would do it in the first place. I know there must be applications that would greatly benefit in these departments. (perhaps aid in packaging) This must not have been that application.

[@superkillr]

Did you read ANY other replies?

[@AJTalks]

Boost juice has been shown to have a very low methanol concentration. They falsely act like it is a 60/40 mix. Therefore it is not a good product. You have to mix it yourself to get it right these days, no products sold actually have the correct mixture that I am aware of

[@Eduardo_Espinoza]

Maybe you can add more boost, since it lowered the temps& maybe raised the octane, to break the even.

[@peteklassen5338]

Was he using race fuel, pump, or e85? I believe most ppl run water meth with 91/93 octane pump gas to be able to run higher ignition timing. If your already running race fuel and can max out timing without water meth then your not really getting the biggest benefit of water meth.

[@black99rt]

In the nightly chat I believe he stated this was with e85. So it wasn't knock limited, which agrees with the point about increasing timing not producing more power.

[@garagecedric]

Great work as always, A bit Weird to do this on e85, not sure why you did that. The biggest point of WM is knock mitigation, which won't be a problem with e85. The in cylinder burn rate changes alot, hence knock sensitivity reduces,.

[@beardedforlife3740]

The biggest reason to use W/M injection is to decrease air charge temperature. The knock resistance is an added benefit if you are using a lower octane fuel

[@phillipshelton2332]

You can buy ABC air brake conditioner from a fleet and farm type store such as rural king or a truck supply company. It's straight methanol and about $15 a gallon. If you don't want to but methanol in a drum

[@frankorobinson1540]

As most have stated starting with e85 is a big help nice protheus as per 👍 usual Richard, could you do another test using nitrous as a intake cooler when no using a intercooler, I've had great luck with my supercharged motorcycle with no cooler and small amounts of nitrous to keep detonation and intake temperatures at bay,lol ,haven't rattled a cast piston, yet,lol,keep the good info coming your a most valuable contributing member to the boost community, thanks

[@robertwoodliff2536]

May have been interesting as a " control " just to put through water & see the effects ...

[@lazyhoundracing9621]

Thanks Richard. I have been thinking about this and then you do a great video. I think the boost juice is 50% meth and the best windshield washer fluid is about 36%. You can buy a metal drum of 100% meth for about $5 a gallon last time I checked and mix your own. I'm strongly considering direct port meth for my 292/6-71. Hogan will be making my intake manifold. Should it be injected at the top or bottom of the port? Thank you for your time.

[@danieldelpha1315]

Why does the power not increase with the big drop in charge temp?

[@mutantryeff]

Just running a 0.5gph on a diesel when it is 100F+ (even 90F) w/10% humidity outside is noticeable.

[@jenniferkromhout713]

Rich, i came up with a little experiment, What If a little Boostsang or the VP octanium octane booster was added to the meth, IMOP it would have to be tested on a boosted motor with the main fuel being Pump gas, The reason im curious is because the octang boosters out there all get added to the gas in your gas tank and goes for the ride , What if you regular driving doesnt need the extra octane!! unLike Methanol injection which is On Demand, Im curious to see if the oxygen sensor safe Octang boosters would allow even more room to run more boost or timing Like C16 or 109 etc, Then Methanol injsecton and pump gas alone, Let me know what you think,,

[@richardholdener1727]

methanol would already have more octane than Boostane

[@jenniferkromhout713]

Really , good to know, all my builds are street-cruise muscle cars So i only build Pump gas cars and meth injection to boosted cars , For me its the most practical , One more suggestion:: M-1 VS M-5 methonal , There was a M-3 but i believe VP dropped it, I usually run straight M1 but i have played around with blending in some M-5, and at around 20-30% you can defiantly feel the difference, i tryed a 50/50 mix once on my camaro, It felt like a small shot of nitrous, My camaro has a fully built LS1 with all forged internals My other cars are stock bottom ends so i dont want to play around to much with them, OK so i remember a friend of mine calling into VP and asking about the different Methanol blends they had M1-M3-M5 , They wouldnt tell him much besides that M1is 99.99% meth with the possibility of a tiny bit of walter, M3 had a light lubricate added and M5 had the Lub and a Power booster, Well the only Fuel i know that can actually make more power just by adding it to your main fuel source is nitromethane, Correct me if im wrong, but VP wouldnt confirm or deny what was actually in the M-5, I think a back to back testing M1-VS-M5 would be a good test, See if A/F is affected, intake Temps, more timing or less and of course how much more power does it actually make, On my Camaro if was definitely noticeable Let me know what you think, Its almost that time , Mikes black cherry! @@richardholdener1727

[@itsjustasix]

Having a flat plate in front of the TB is not optimal for atomization. Like others are saying if your on E85, kinda a waste to add water meth. Alky control can run 100% methanol , water is great for cooling but not for all out power.

[@itsjustasix]

Was the Snow injection controlled by a map sensor? Or was it just a on and off type deal?

[@richardholdener1727]

BOOST REFERENCED AS INDICATED IN THE VIDEO (I SUPPLIED ON/FULL ON BOOST POINTS)