Who Were the Ancients in Star Wars?

[@RG2088]

I feel it is most likely Zeffo being that head design of the mech is so similar to the Zeffo and tomb guardians. They didnt straight up say Zeffo because there not well known only those who were studying them would know and it seemed to me like only Eno Cordova really knew about the culture the most.

[@malachiphoniex8501]

Plus, from a marketing perspective they wouldn't want to reference a major plot point from another project they want to promote; they don't want to spoil revelations and story points to a prequel of an upcoming game. Narratively, why would anyone know much about a Force using civilization older than the Jedi, unless you're a Force user?

[@dontbeasadsoulja]

I think it's definitely of Zeffo origin.

[@jamariojackson4289]

Definitely.

[@Ja90b1]

I so badly wish duel of the fates had been ep9 so we could have seen that Zeffo Sith appear, they were so clearly connecting the game and ep9’s earlier script. Such a shame

[@Zilmayjaink]

Deffo it is Zeffo, fo'sho

[@podracer35]

The Empire was already scoping out the Zeffo temples in Fallen Order, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. We are getting Palpatine this season, so would be fun to see something related to his interest in the Zeffo. Yes, it's most likely going to be the cloning stuff, but with Jedi Survivor coming so soon, I would love to see some references in The Bad Batch.

[@Major98]

Love the idea of the Zeffo becoming a thing outside of Fallen Order. They definitely have a Rakatan vibe

[@andrewsever4651]

The glowing markings inside the Walker looked very similar to those found in the building where Yoda met the priestesses in the one season seven clone wars episode

[@DanBen07]

Oooooh.

[@swimmingagainsttheti]

The symbols Omega lights up in the tunnel (squares with rounded corners) are similar in nature to the hieroglyphs craved into the murals in the Zeffo temples.

[@DanBen07]

Interesting.

[@dracoeris]

Did they ever actually call themselves "The Zeffo"? That's what Eno Cordova calls them because their ruins were first uncovered on Zeffo. I don't ever recall hearing them call themselves that. We know some names of prominent sages, but that's it. I don't think anyone not directly connected to Eno Cordova's archeology would call them "Zeffo". How would they know to?

[@StarNameKev]

When we go into the dream sequence I believe they do call themselves Zeffo

[@dracoeris]

@@StarNameKev Do you mean during the vision in the Bogano vault? Cause they don't there. That's the only time we "hear" their own words. SPOILERS - The only words they speak are: "I offer this record of our civilization to those who will follow. Despite our wisdom and technological achievement, we face extinction. Dogma blinded us to the path of balance and gradually we allowed our pride to corrupt us. The greater control we sought, the further we fell into ruin. I lead the remnants of my people into the great unknown, hoping that we finally find peace." They don't mention themselves by name at all.

[@theladyofwhims]

A question I have is how well known are the Zeffo? I had assumed that they were unheard of by the wider galaxy, with only specialists like Cordova even hearing of them. But given that there was a colony of people living near a Zeffo ruin on Zeffo, Kashyyk and Dathomir, and that Phee herself seems to be well-travelled, I could be wrong.

[@broomcheese6444]

I’d imagine they’re common in history circles but not through wider galactic knowledge. Comparable to the Scythians or Phoenicians of our world.

[@lukestarkiller1470]

Some people might have known of them but just not enough to know what they were called, so they might refer to them as the ancients

[@broomcheese6444]

@@lukestarkiller1470 excellent point

[@timefly4221]

This episode of the Bad Batch reminded me of the purrgil episode of Rebels. Everyone thought it was a dumb one-off about saving the space whales but they turned out to be quite important to the resolution of the series as well as becoming part of the back story about how hyperspace travel was developed. I bet we haven’t seen the last of that walker (or at least its technology and back story).

[@Drace90]

"The Ancients" are also the most powerful race in the Stargate franchise. The predecessors of humanity and builders of the Stargate network (portals that can send you instantly to other gates on other planets). The Ancients have achieved the highest form of evolution, called Ascension, during which they left behind their bodies and continued to exist as pure energy, as if they had uploaded their consciousness into the universe itself. This has nothing to do with Star Wars, I just want everyone to consider checking out Stargate. It's awesome!

[@mattboesch8907]

Everytime I hear "the Ancients", I think of Stargate,

[@Azarath08]

​@@mattboesch8907 Same. It's so deeply embedded, it cannot be associated with anything else

[@katieartist94]

Immediately what I thought of too!🤣 I had to rewind to make sure!

[@joethahobo]

I have asked Alex to watch stargate for years lmao. Hopefully one day he does

[@righteousforest5538]

I just started playing Fallen Order for the first time last weekend, and by coincidence the night before this episode dropped I played through the first Zeffo temple and I absolutely thought that was meant to be Zeffo tech. Could just be my brain having been primed to think of it that way by the game, though.

[@peterslavik1449]

I think it's Zeffo, we've seen Braca and a few other Jedi Fallen Order connections. I bet we get an episode around Jedi Survivors release that ties it in, also I wouldn't even be surprised if we see Cal at a point.

[@JohanMsWorld]

Given that Jedi Survivor is coming out it would be a fun conection between TBB and Cal. I also hoped that the batch where gonna run into a young and scared Cal when they where on Bracca but that did not happen. But we have to wait and see. J.

[@ezrapark9992]

I think it can only be an Easter egg (reverse Easter egg?) for Jedi Survivor. They use “ancients” so that we’ll still be surprised when we see the same type of mech in the game

[@liucconen]

Alternatively they could use "ancients" to set the theme. Main characters going to unexplored, really old ruin by "ancients" sounds a lot more mysterious and adventurous than them going to a Zeffo ruin. Besides, how would Phee even know about Zeffo? She is not a scholar as far as we know.

[@gendissaray]

It'd be great to see them make more connections to games.

[@frankydclc]

I was surprised when you didn’t bring up the Zeffo in your review.

[@BlakeHoffmeyer]

As a fan who just doesn't always have time to dive into material like I want to, thank you so much for providing these insights. You guys are like a news and discussion channel for the coolest stuff haha. Thanks!

[@MSeanMcManus]

Ohhh that is so cool! I think if they are trying to build an even larger mythology, they are just planting the seeds for the future here. We'll have to wait to see how this storyline grows.

[@shariqhasan6220]

Also the mech gave me alot of the same vibes as the 2005 War of the World movie's tripods especially the way that mech rose up from the ground.

[@bullrun2772]

i would say more horzion zero dawn feel

[@AeroEng42]

I agree that the mech was very likely of Zeffo origins given all its similarities to the Zeffo artifacts in Fallen Order (both in terms of design of the mech as a whole, but also the puzzles needed to access it). The compass almost seemed like a technology solution to read Force-imbued stones/structures that the Zeffo Sages would have been able to perceive. To me, a Zeffo mech begs the more important/interesting questions: 1) Why was it on that planet? Was it guarding something like the Tomb Guardians, or was it an offensive weapon? 2) If guarding, what was it guarding? If an offensive weapon, what civilization was it built to eradicate?

[@jaylenkorth4945]

It’s heavily referencing the Yoda’s Secret War arc of Star Wars 2015. I think it’s powered by blue stone.

[@hansmerker5611]

I suggest videos on: Comlinks Blastech Industries Czerka Corporation Corellian Engineering Corporation Kuat Drive Yards

[@DarthAndylus]

They looked really similar, so I think it is them. I think maybe they didn't make it more obvious because this is meant to be for a group that might not play the games (ie children/pre-teens) or maybe just to make it more straightforward to regular audiences. The last two episodes to me have been filler which seems weird with how short seasons are nowadays lol

[@SprayCoke33]

I would really like to know more about the mech, like what purpose was it created for, why was it buried, etc.

[@TheLastBabyMan]

Star Wars, Stargate, Sonic Frontiers, it's becoming a trope to refer to a old dead and almost forgotten race as "The Ancients".

[@Zombotron5678]

I think the walker is Zeffo in origin, the reason why they didn’t mention it is probably because while writing the episode, originally it wasn’t but when the story group got the episode, they made the request to make it look Zeffo so that the connection could be there.

[@chm1701]

"I offer this record of our civilization to those who will follow. Despite our wisdom and technological achievement, we face extinction. Dogma blinded us to the path of balance and gradually we allowed our pride to corrupt us. THE GREATER CONTROL WE SOUGHT, THE FURTHER WE FELL INTO RUIN. I lead the remnants of my people into the great unknown, HOPING THAT WE FINALLY FIND PEACE." - A Zeffo Sage recording. So, perhaps it may well have been of Zeffo origin, but in doing so, it actually destroyed them in the process; hence the hope that they ‘finally find peace’. Maybe.

[@lukestarkiller1470]

Someone brought up the fact that the episode is also called Entombed, which could possibly be meant to reference the Zeffo tombs in Jedi fallen order. Overall I feel like there’s too many similarities for this to have not been deliberate

[@brandonmadigan7523]

I still think it was built by the race that would one day create Mortis. The Heart of the Mountain and the Runes as well as all the glowing lines when it powers up reminds me both of Mortis and The World between Worlds.

[@viperson9818]

I think the writers are hinting to the Zeffo but not saying it, probably because its so old not many in the galaxy would even know about them unless they're studying them so intently like Cordova. Its way too coincedental for it to not be a refereance to the Zeffo. Plus two ancient in major things and its Star Wars no way it isn't related.

[@TheBorhork]

I think it's Zeffo related. It makes sense that it's called the ancients instead of the Zeffo because we have already seen how easily information gets diluted over time. To someone who didn't study them, they could have used a generic term just to cover basics, or at least be a catch all term for all ancient and extinct races.

[@elzbietaszeliga2904]

The episode is also called 'entombed'. WHAT was Cal looking for?!?! TOMBSS!!!!

[@yaboiyoshio8622]

Keeping it vague feels very intentional. I imagine leaving details like this for fans to theorise around drums more discussion than if they'd just blatantly outlined what we're seeing. It's more fun for the fandom to draw its own connections than for the franchise to draw those lines explicitly for us, and probably brings more attention to a show I'm sure a lot of fans are skipping.

[@DanielDaniel-wk1up]

These are the same guys who keep the mystery about the Starkiller Base being actually planet Illum for YEARS so... I definitelly see them puting a Zeffo connection there and saying nothing about it to keep it as some easter egg game to fill the gap, like Dengar cameo in The Rise of Skywalker

[@Blue_Brawler]

Nah that mech was 100% Zeffo. Reason “zeffo” wasn’t mentioned is because none of those characters know who they are. Plus it’s aesthetics and laser beam was on-the-nose Zeffo like.

[@ryankohnenkamp8946]

I think it's def Zeffo. I just think ?Fee was just BSIng about "the Ancients" and she just happened to hit close to the truth.

[@willsantoliquido8419]

I think the key/crystal/heart of the mountain looked very similar to the stones in the movie the fifth element.

[@chanceofrain96]

Sometimes it's better to plant vague seeds for future stories to expand on. But that was definitely a Zeffo mech created by someone corrupted by the Dark Wind. 👁👄👁

[@isaaclavoie]

Personally this was the best episode this season so far. The others felt like an extension of season 1, not bad at all but a little uninspiring to me. I really like this dip into the ancient! Something weird and oldschool star wars-y

[@Eiweing]

When it rose from the ground I immediately thought 'ZEFFO'

[@Nek0xGG]

Watching the episode, I just saw the "door" to the cave and I thought immediately in the Zeffo.

[@J0intV3nture]

I believe it is reference. A subtle one, but intentional. Knowing as Disney wanting to capitalize on the upcoming release of Jedi: Survivor, the idea doesn't seems too far fetched.

[@---Tre---]

That mech was too cool! My eyes almost popped out they got so wide when it came out of the ground.

[@CloneScavengerVulpin8389]

We could learn more about the zeffo's time on the planet, when the bad batch go to kashyyyk since the ancient aliens did have good relations with the wookiees. However there's a possibility we won't learn anything that we didn't already learn from fallen order, unless cal missed something.But the story will not focus much on the as zeffo, but i hope to see some references to them.

[@chaosfire321]

The layout definitely seems like the Zeffo. I'm perfectly fine with their being a whole bevy of ancient precursor races in Star Wars and not all being linked back to the Rakatans, but the design seems way too analogous for chance.

[@kineuhansen8629]

i do hope canon will explore star wars past history like old republic era like is there a canon mandalorian wars

[@ecfeclipse]

You cant just add a giant mech into starwars and just not tell us about it

[@justinjeffries1554]

I didn't know the Zeffo fell to the dark side :o Could be Amaxine war machines too!

[@Flyingfoxman]

This episode reminds me of The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest, and I love that.

[@jamespescatore7786]

The Zeffo was only known by a select few so it has potential.

[@JamesGraham1974]

I definitely got Zeffo vibes, to the point that I’d be disappointed if it wasn’t - it was too similar to just be a coincidence. I don’t think this represents a small universe problem, although the finding a random compass in a junkyard definitely did - unless it turns out that was placed by someone (which I doubt).

[@TheHallow31]

It's definitely Zeffo. There are too many aesthetic and design choices to just be a coincidence. "Why not just say Zeffo?" How many galactic commoners would know the actual name of an ancient race without considerable, in-depth research? "Ancients" is an easy catch-all term to describe anything predating the Republic. "Why not make the mech match the temple guardian more?" The 4-legged design makes more sense for a giant, walking war machine like the AT-AT. I think the show's creators deliberately made the design Zeffo so it would be immediately recognizable to fans who played Fallen Order but didn't outright call it "Zeffo" so it wouldn't confuse anyone who hadn't played the game. "Oh, I have to play an entire video game to understand this reference?" Besides, it makes way more sense to allude to an ancient race that's already been established in Canon rather than alluding to something else entirely.

[@Sounds_And_Vistas]

Never played the game so I the episode was super confusing hehe But after your explanation I can see the similarities with the design so hopefully it gets explored down the line...

[@TonyMidyett]

I find the Zeffo to be so fascinating! I really want to see them in a movie.

[@jasonram3094]

I mean like you said the zeffo at one point split and began to fight so I might be a zeffo weapon used to fight other zeffo

[@DanielLoganGames]

I would love to have Cal fight one of those giant mechs in Survivor. As for the Zeffo connection I could see it being something created later in the Zeffo’s time after they were using the dark side more while the temple guardians might have been created earlier in that transition

[@MarkyD1967]

Did my eyes deceive me, or did that giant mechanical monster disintegrate Phee’s little droid as it was wheeling to escape? If so I find that interesting that Disney/Lucasfilm continues to go there with the complete disintegration of ships and droids…😏

[@rtaraquin]

It reminded me of the mapping robots from Horizon Zero Dawn.

[@danprentice7073]

I think so mainly for the implications that it can bring to there society and how they treat other worlds maybe that thing was used in there great war. Really I just like Zeffo a lot they remind me of the forerunners from Halo, strange, unknowing and powerful it has a lot of story potential.

[@chewy99.]

How cool would it be if n Jedi Survivor we find the surviving Zeffo in the unknown regions??? That would be so awesome! Though maybe better suited for a third game, if there will be one.

[@okcomputer0101]

“Always nay sayin, Kyle!”😅

[@EyeDeeTenTee]

I couldn’t figure out why that thing looked so familiar even though I’d never seen it before but now I’m convinced it was Zeffo

[@garypfeiffer3489]

You know, that 4 legged machine kinda reminds me of the TallNecks from the Horizon game series

[@pattygrimes9188]

Zeffo making a come back

[@CATDRL2]

Maybe the Mecha artifact needed to be shown now with its mysterious background, only to be explained in the upcoming Jedi Survivor Game coming soon???

[@nickevans2605]

To me it’s definitely of zeffo origin, the writing that occurs when they flip the tube and the carving in the initial area all is super reminiscent of zeffo. Also TBB has never shied away from showing stuff introduced in fallen order

[@bradmullaerialphotography]

Damn my favourite episodes of gummie bears where the ones featuring ancient gummies. And now Disney your doing it again, ancient weapons and hokie religions lol

[@grantcriddle1326]

A great idea for a link

[@ryanhack5718]

The Bad Batch mech looks like Arceus from Pokémon. 😂

[@FafiFafa10Kestis]

I’m pretty sure that there is a Zeffonian guy on the television in the undercity of corustant in Attack of the clones before Anakin and Obi wan entered the club and just after the speeder crashed. That location can also be seen in Jedi survivor. Could this be a reference?

[@CantankerousDave]

They're the ones yelling at clouds with an onion tied to their belt.

[@madviola183]

While drawing attention to the Zeffo for the Skara Null (guessing at spelling) would be great, if Fi didn't know the Zeffo's true name, but only knew them by "the ancients", then it would make sense in universe to not call them out directly. That being said, I think it would've been fairly easy to pass it off that she knew of the Zeffo from her archeological digs...I mean treasure hunts.

[@Benjamin0119]

That thing was pretty cool. It made me think of what if the ancient civilization from The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild made something like a Tallneck from Horizon: Zero Dawn. It was very cool and I hope we learn more about this ancient civilization. I didn't know about the Zeffo from Fallen Order since I never played it. But hmm, interesting. It might be them!

[@malinabenjamin]

Maybe it's made by Zeffo that fell to the darkside

[@jaredjenkins99]

The thing is, if it’s NOT Zeffo, the design of the head, the blue beam of energy, and the fact it’s described as ancient technology would be too big a coincidence. And to answer your question, a reason for them not to explicitly name it Zeffo tech, is simply that it’s cooler if they don’t, and leave it as a little mystery for longer

[@apeman505]

As soon as I saw that thing I thought it was a direct reference to the Tallnecks in Horizon Zero Dawn.

[@mkhud50n]

I’m all for Star Wars being vague and open to interpretation. Not everything has to be explained or set in stone. Gives us stuff to talk about too.

[@mikehenderson42]

erm where did u get that bd1 shirt i need it

[@DarthRelkew]

Honestly, it think it’s intentional to be vague. Eno probably doesn’t know about the Zeffo and there’s the fact she’s a pirate and knows pirate tales. I’m gonna guess that this machine will be discovered by Palpatine and the tech will be used for the creation of the Death Star, since the Zeffo used a crystal to power a beam of destruction similar to how the Death Star uses kyber crystals.

[@gabbes23]

It really looks like the large walking map tower robots from horizon.

[@Tharringbone]

Your shirt looks like BD is talking into the microphone, also I believe it to deffo be Zeffo

[@dannyfriar5653]

I think the writers made it vague on purpose so they can decide on its backstory later (or not at all)

[@patreilly3184]

it looks like BD-1 is trying to look into the mic. and im also headcannoning the Zeffo bots.

[@StuartLugsden]

I like to think it is. The Walker could belong to a sub division it could have been made in collaboration with another group. It’s not impossible.

[@gibsonrickenbacker6317]

Isn’t that a Lego Horizons Tallneck 😂😂

[@chrisallen9638]

Why didn't they have Fee just outright say Zeffo and not "ancient?" Probably because Eno Cordova was one of the only modern beings that even knew the word Zeffo, let alone in relation to the Ancients. Sorry Alex, but that's a really weak argument for why it's not Zeffo. The entirety of the architecture was way too close to the Zeffo tombs in Fallen Order for it to be a coincidence.

[@matthewhickey4351]

Am I the only person that thinks it looks more like the creature Obi Wan killed in the Battle of Geonosis in AOTC? I think it resembles it more than the zeffo.

[@malachiphoniex8501]

From a marketing perspective they wouldn't want to reference a major plot point from another project they want to promote; they don't want to spoil revelations and story points to a prequel to an upcoming game. Narratively, why would anyone know much about a Force using civilization older than the Jedi, unless you're a Force user?

[@happymike420]

I think it would be appropriate to connect the dots

[@katedoesnature1967]

I enjoy your Head Cannon... Prove him wrong Bad Batch!!

[@PeterTheMightyPygmyPuff]

Why would the Zeffo create this weapon? I didn't play the game but I got the impression that the Zeffo weren't that into war and stuff and their guardian things were just guards and not supposed to be used aggressively. I could be super wrong about that though.

[@WforWill]

Honestly the giant walker looks like Vah Naboris from Breath of the Wild

[@scottpolk8000]

While the writers may not have envisioned a Zeffo artifact, I'd be willing to bet the animators were influenced by Jedi Fallen Order.

[@NickNobody161]

I think the whole point of this episode was to introduce the ancients. So they will play a role in coming episodes

[@BovaBuilds]

They were huge!

[@Aussie_Jesus_Christ]

I think its in the story writer's best interest to make it a zeffo artefact. How many ancient, all powerful races can we have in star wars? I think they left it vague on purpose, "ancients" could refer to anything

[@owencutler4094]

I’d recognize Vah Naboris anywhere. That’s clearly Sheikah tech

[@petefischer3820]

I agree!

[@zeux5583]

similar but different doesnt mean it must be a whole other civilization. civilizations evolve over time and so do their creations. maybe it was a late after-collapse zeffo design, because i doubt that the zeffo accepted the fall to the dark side without a question. i think the zeffo experienced something similar to what the galactic republic/empire experiences, a dark side takeover of civilization and then a destructive civil war as people got fed up with tyranny. its just that the one the zeffo experienced was so destructive, almost no traces of their civilization can be found anymore. similar to what the roman empire is to us, in places like cologne the old roman city was so often destroyed, rebuild, and destroyed again, that the foundations of the old city are more or less gone for good. you can only find roman ruins in places where noone settled afterward or the construction was so massive that noone had the tools to demolish them until today.

[@latewizard301]

Now i want to play Fallen Order again....