Who Were the Cathars? - The Albigensian Crusade

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Paul Copenhagen, J Stephen Roberts, and Rand Brown define and discuss the Cathar heresy in the medieval Languedoc.

[@bargh70]

We actually know extremely little about Dualistic Religions, Gnosticism and in this sense the Cathars. Their own texts and thoughts, their own identity described by themselves is destroyed in its entirety from the history books by the Catholic Church in the West and Islam in Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Asking the Catholic Church to describe the Cathars and their "heresy" is like asking Mao to describe Buddhism in China, that he and his Communist revolution obliterated. That would not make for a fair interpretation, we can all agree on that. I mean think about it "Cathars are against sex, marriage and creating new life, children". Do you really think a society with such a religion would survive over such a log period of time? Isn't it also suspicious that Cathars are represented as the complete opposite of the Catholic Church? It sounds more like warmongering propaganda than a fair representation of someone's true beliefs. The descriptions of Cathars presented in this video are of the Catholic Church and are not actually representative but are the only thing have about he Cathars. So take it with a big pinch of salt.

[@willsmith8586]

I am glad you said this. I have no idea who the cathars are and were interested in the story. Red flags went up during this video. Pinch of salt is exactly how I took it. thanks for the great response.

[@jerrytang8684]

I would take a truckload of salt in regards to your interpretation. Go deeper in your research before offering a shallow opinion.

[@amger3067]

@@willsmith8586 @bargh70 given what we know about gnostism in general, which is pretty reliable including the unaltered Nag Hammadi library, and knowing that the Cathars had gnostic views (which often refer to hidden knowledge and the natural world being evil) this depiction really isn't that far off

[@exillens]

@@jerrytang8684 Here, I'll give modern relatable terms with a movie connection. Christianity and Catholicism were religions of the Matrix machinery to keep it going while groups with Gnostic beliefs were against the Matrix. They saw the biblical god or any god of religious lure as merely architects of the Matrix like in the movie and the church were a bunch of agent Smiths for this architect. Gnostics were the Neos attempting to break free into a higher reality and enlightenment was their Morpheus. I hope this helped

[@carlosalegria4776]

t. seething Cathar

[@danilee78qq]

Sounds alot like Gnostics.

[@nikosmedis9440]

They are gnostics

[@KwamtumPshX]

Nailed it!

[@juri8723]

Nikos Medis they werent. Rome keeps saying it, to justify their murder.

[@knuckles9863]

@@juri8723 They literally were, though.

[@juri8723]

Knuckles nah. The documents to prove this, song texts and „creeds“ of the cathars were forged in the 15th century.

[@stripes1016]

the cathars sound very familiar to the Orthodox Bogomil heresy i think they are connected when they were banished from the Byzantine empire there is even village in my country called bogolimi

[@blackswan1983]

Yes, they have connections!

[@victormorgado5318]

I read about the connection to byzantine culture

[@phantomscribbler6835]

Great information, thanks guys. Always look forward to your videos.

[@lunaticzellot7792]

Hi, I was just wondering if you could make a playlist for people want to systematically watch all your videos in order. If it's not a hassle that is.

[@KiDCRuDi_]

Seconded

[@19JackDempsey03]

does anybody know how to spell the name of the religion he just mentioned at the 0:49 mark? i tried to type into google every variation of how i think it could be spelled and nothing came up.

[@MiguelLopez-tt9pq]

19JackDempsey03 I think he meant to say “Manichaeism” and mispronounced it

[@mzindyg007]

Very interesting. Started googling this after reading in my Catholic bible a section under CATHOLIC DOCTRINAL GUIDE , " Lateran Council 1179" which Forbid anyone to have in their home or any dealings with The ALBIGENSIANS " By the end of the twelfth century, the Cathars were also called Albigensians, which referred to the town of Albi in France.

[@franciscoscaramanga9396]

Are there non-Catholic source documents for the beliefs of the Cathars? Considering their history with the Waldensians, I'm a little suspicious of the narrative.

[@zackxmagz6343]

Yes, George Stanley faber _

[@SpiritOfTheRainbow]

Yes, a few Cathar documents survive including their Ritual, Secret Supper of St John & Book of the Two Principles. If you are interested, I have some videos on the Cathars on my Channel.

[@elcomentario8913]

Very informative, non-biased, pragmatic, and straightforward video.

[@misomiso8228]

1:51 What is the 'Gnostic family of thought'?

[@ludonymous526]

​@@demon212I know that. But their way of thinking and worldview is really, REALLY out there.

[@SimplyLimbo]

Manicheïsm ? The gnostic system was way older !

[@namlese4577]

@The Expat Dodo yup, it was the final syncreation between east and west

[@ottocooper4256]

I'm doing a uni group project on this starting Monday!

[@lauramontsegur7782]

most scholars say, there is no evident link between Manichaeism and Cathars, but I agree with you

[@geraldinehunter7832]

always intrigued by the many branches of Christianity, esp. the Cathars.

[@ic.xc.]

They weren't a branch they were straight up heretic

[@gfoot9916]

Marcus Böetius what’s the difference? Martin Luther was a heretic too then.

[@knuckles9863]

@@gfoot9916 He was

[@ohamatchhams]

@@ic.xc. Tbf even there's like civil wars and bloodbaths within different branches of Catholicism and Protestantism

[@overlord5068]

@@gfoot9916 He was

[@n.b.2164]

very interesting. please more.

[@RealCrusadesHistory]

Thank you, and indeed there will be!

[@willsmith8586]

Can you please talk about he actual crusade?

[@sauroman1]

Cathars were peaceful but rebellious that's why they were killed off

[@Philomena_Jenifer]

I know that😉✨You can see my profile in youtube, and the section canals, you can see "The Cathars" in inglish languages in UK, is the spiritual School of Catharism available for this moment of the change and learn. Greetings🙏✨

[@manywarswhitewolf7718]

Who wouldn't be rebellious to evil deceitful ppl , well the leaders I mean

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

But not really Powerless, the Cathars were a growing Religion/heresy in Christendom that the Church saw as a threat, while Peaceful they are no means powerless especially with the backing of many Nobles and Citizens. (had the Cathars ironically not gained mass appeal than the Church would have tolerated or at least begrudgingly let them be.)

[@RynaxAlien]

@@forickgrimaldus8301 Institutions of violence and fear historically always had lots of power

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

@@RynaxAlien that too

[@darthveatay]

the cathars against child birth well that must have gone well for them

[@London_miss234]

Darth Vitiate Only their priest and nuns didn’t procreate. Rival church to Roman Catholicism.

[@London_miss234]

The Cathars weren’t against birth and children only their leaders, like the Roman Catholic priest, monk and nun.

[@iamscoutstfu]

Well. yes. If you understood why they did it, it actually makes a lot of sense.

[@heebrojooper1652]

they are antinatalists

[@exillens]

@@iamscoutstfu Here, I'll give modern relatable terms with a movie connection. Christianity and Catholicism were religions of the Matrix machinery to keep it going while groups with Gnostic beliefs were against the Matrix. They saw the biblical god or any god of religious lure as merely architects of the Matrix like in the movie and the church were a bunch of agent Smiths for this architect. Gnostics were the Neos attempting to break free into a higher reality and enlightenment was their Morpheus. I hope this helped

[@757Princess]

I’m here from the Netflix series Nightfall. I’ve never heard of Cathar

[@cerberus8666]

Ever think about covering the siege of Malta in 1565? I find the hospitallers fascinating, and I think this is within the scope, it is still a crusader outpost in a way. In spirit perhaps.

[@m00nsplitter72]

The Cathars more importantly practised the lending of money; an ultimately fatal mistake.

[@willsmith8586]

I don't think its more important; borrowing money or lending money is not normally fatal

[@OrestisMatsoukas]

M00nsplitter you mistake them with Templars

[@mysty0]

While Borrowing or Lending may not be Fatal, Usury is!

[@sonicnarutoTDpg]

bill john and you've never stopped to think maybe that is why were are in such a turmoil with our economy. He isn't taking economic advice from a 1000 year old text, he is taking it from the mouth of God.

[@zerozilch]

M00nsplitter they were given antimony lead an tricked an poisond. Then burned.

[@anthonyhargis6855]

Like I said . . . Simon was true to himself. Religious Crusade versus Political Crusade.

[@justinrobinson9583]

So they believe pro-creation is wrong, yet they too where born...does that not mean they did not believe in the existence of humanity in and of itself.

[@a_m5115]

They believed that the material world was created by the evil lesser god, who trapped their immortal souls into their material bodies

[@ludonymous526]

​@@a_m5115Exactly. And they would usually do gruesome acts of ritualistic suicide and infanticide.

[@vjorp5332]

Wait!? But how were the Cathats in the middle of France even inspired by the Manichean faith which was a thing much further east? Are those simmilarities just a conincidence? Was there some sort of prophet that came up with this? Did they have a holy book?

[@titanscerw]

Vjorp Bogomil Bulgarian sect brought it to Languedoc, also being important trading route it has lot of exposure to different thought schools some positive but some destructive like Manechianism and Arianism that pander to more animal desires of corrupt human nature ... same jazz as protestantism or islam, modernism, americanism

[@merlball8520]

titanscerw , So let me get this straight: Do you believe all non-Catholics are non-Christians?

[@vjorp5332]

No, the Ortodox are fine. I'm also not sure about Coptics. But Protestants, as for them I don't believe them to be christian. They don't accept saits, not the virgin Mary. They make a very bad reputation for other christians with stupid stuff like not accepting evolution and let's not forget how they slaughtered catholics when their "rform" started. All their demands from the age of reformation have been adopted into the catholic church so if they were christians they'd return. Also: an ortodox or catholic priest needs to go to university and learn for years. A protestant priest can do an internet course or buy the tile. I would not accept someone uneducated on the subject preaching to me.

[@merlball8520]

Vjorp You're both ignorant and bigoted. Many non-Catholic Christian priests, pastors, and ministers, Evengelical and otherwise, go to school and get degrees in Christian theology. Even so, there is no Biblical principle requiring this, nor does such a thing have any bearing on whether or not a person is a Christian. So what if they don't acknowledge individual saints? Again, doing so is not essential to being a Christian. They acknowledge who Mary is. What exactly do you think there is to do beyond that? "Not accepting evolution" - Some do and some don't. This is irrelevant to being a Christian. "Slaughtered Catholics" - Actually, it was Catholics who typically attacked first on the authority of the Church. Even so, there was Un-Christian behavior performed on both sides. Nevertheless, most Protestant Christian groups that exist today are not tied to the events that happened over 400 years ago. For the record, most people see the lifetime of Martin Luther as the beginning of the Reformation. Martin Luther was hardly the initiator of violence. "All their demands" - Again, most non-Catholic Christian groups have nothing to do with the Reformation period strife. "If they were Christians they'd return." - It is not a condition of Christianity to acknowledge the authority of the pope or to be under the authority of the Catholic Church. There is no manmade qualification for being a shepherd to God's people. An official education may be a good sign that one understands theology, but it is no proof of a person's faith or character. Educated men have broken away from the Church time and time again. What did that prove. There are many non-Catholic Christian groups. You have little idea of which you speak. You'd do well to refrain from making uneducated statements on the subject until you're more enlightened.

[@Bellg]

the french historian Michel roquebert disputes that claim that Catharism is an extension of Manicheism. This was more so a mispresentation by contemporary catholic scribes than actually a fact, so he says. sure there were some simillarities, but dualism does not instantly equate to manicheism

[@catelyn719]

My favorite heresy

[@ludonymous526]

And they were gruesomely massacred from existence.

[@m4r_art]

I've read some content elsewhere stating they were against pro-creation but not against... you know the rest.

[@cristerowarrior1450]

Sounds like they just parroted one of my old videos on Yusufaltahir or Johnthehutdweller So Thumbs Up! Great job! Finally someone fighting the Gnostics besides me

[@RealCrusadesHistory]

Can't say I've ever seen your video. This is a highlight from a podcast we did a while back.

[@RealCrusadesHistory]

And thanks!

[@randomboy3m98]

Cristero Warrior they weren't Gnostics. Writing in about 1240 A.D., (some 30 years after the Inquisition against them began) he specifically confronted the fact that many rumors and slanders were spoken against the Cathars, which he believed were false: “… the rumor of the fornication which is said to prevail among them is most false. For it is true that once a month, either by day or by night, in order to avoid gossip by the people, men and women meet together, not, as some lyingly say, for purposes of fornication, but so that they may hear preaching and make confession to their presiding official, as though from his prayers pardon for their sins would ensue. They are wrongfully wounded in popular rumor by many malicious charges of blasphemy from those who say that they commit many shameful and horrid acts of which they are innocent. And, therefore, they vaunt themselves to be disciples of Christ, who said, ‘If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you,’ and, ‘You shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake.’ And, indeed, they believe fulfilled in them the text, ‘Blessed are ye when they shall revile you and reproach you and speak all that is evil against you untruly for my sake.’” (Source: Heresies of the High Middle Ages, by Walter Legett Wakefield & Austin Patterson Evans, pp. 305-306)

[@ludonymous526]

@@randomboy3m98 It doesn't matter, though. They got snuffed out of existence.

[@g-rexsaurus794]

Real Crusader Historian, given this heresy was self destructive were the massacres or even the Crusade itself needed to destroy this heresy?

[@RollerPigg]

Corruption can always be counted upon to do one thing: corrupt. If left unchecked, corruption will corrupt that which is good, until there is no good left. A "Cancer" is a better analogy of the effects of heresy - yes, eventually the cancer will stop, but only after it has killed the body and has no living cells left to feed upon. People describe good vs. evil (heresy) nowadays like some kind if Yin and Yang, night and day, warm and cold, etc. as if we're dependent upon both. This is not the case. Good is like an apple, and evil is the rot of an apple. If you want that apple to be nourishing food, the rot must be cut away from the rest and gotten rid of.

[@merlball8520]

Joe Stubbernubbensteingenson , That was not a justification for a Crusade. Every non-Christian belief is destructive. It is distinctly un-Christian to violently attack non-Christians simply because they are non-Christians.

[@g-rexsaurus794]

I don´t think there was the need of a Crusade, but the French king should have put the Languedoc nobility down.

[@RollerPigg]

Merl Ball Not EVERY non-Christian belief needs to be destructive - only ONE non-Christian belief needs to be destructive. Being a non-christian was not the only qualifier to have had a crusade against something. Jews were allowed to exist throughout Europe during that time. That said, propagating heresy was considered the gravest of crimes, worse than murder, because you were causing others to lose their souls.

[@juanflores2882]

The corruption came from church, the Cathars were exterminated,because they were a menace to pope authority, heresy was a made up motiff to destroy them.

[@mic7able]

Can someone explain their name? It clearly shares a syllable with Catholic; is that unconnected?

[@waynemarvin5661]

The word Cathar means 'the pure'. The name 'Catholic' is derived from the same root.

[@vit968]

*My favorite CK2 heresy*

[@chaimrothberg5367]

You can’t marry your sister though

[@landofthesoldcanada6407]

I seen a documentary they connected mithriac to cathars in hiding when force to convert or be burned to the stake, mithraic is an Aryan Iranian religion, for the steppes people that moved into Europe as knights

[@diegoacarrascorivera2554]

Who's here bcs of crusader kings 2

[@timothysmith7888]

Who are the speakers? What Religious Studies/Theology degrees do you have? What are your credentials? Are your views based on peer reviewed scholarship or personal belief?

[@EtsMeJago]

Timothy Smith “degrees”... hahahaa...

[@davidfrench1857]

If they didn’t believe in childbirth or marriage, and why didn’t the Roman church just let them die off?

[@danielpg3303]

Because they kept spreading the heresy across Europe. Family tradition is not the only way you continue religion.

[@squiremuldoon5462]

How can all matter be evil if some of it serves to communicate and perform good deeds?

[@valentinius62]

"Good deeds" are a poor substitute for the purity that exists only in the Realm of Light.

[@KiwiImpactSaint]

Monism or Philosophical Singularity is an important part of truth, no matter in religion or other learnings. There is no such thing as good against evil. There is perfection, being the absolute goodness, but evil is only the effect of lackness of goodness, there is no limit of evil. Just like in nature, without particle movements at all means absolute zero in temperature, but there is no limit of being hot in measurement of temperature. Any religion or learning claim gods or phenomena to be double sided, are highly irrational. This world never worked that way.

[@knghtcmdr]

Um... yes, evil is a thing. Very much a thing.

[@KiwiImpactSaint]

knghtcmdr It's effect displayed by lacking the characteristics of God. There is no measurement on how far can a mind be distanced from God, but what Jesus desired was written in the Gospel of John. He and the father becomes one, and all mankind and God becomes one. It's the best philosophical expression of humanity without sin.

[@exillens]

The bible god is actually an egotistical devil by many criteria. In many ways the teachings attributed to jesus were Gnostic in nature in the "gospels". He taught that the jews old testament father god was "the devil" in very clear terms and he came with a message like many before and after him to release people from that bondage

[@ludonymous526]

​@@exillensWell. It's best to not enter too deep into that.

[@exillens]

@@ludonymous526 I'm good

[@HolyknightVader999]

They were a bunch of Neo-Gnostics who at first, debated the Church members on matters of theology, then turned violent when they began losing the debates and nobles started joining them. When peaceful measures failed the Holy See, they declared a Crusade against the Cathars and destroyed them. The Inquisition was then formed to root out what's left, but to also give remaining Cathars a way out of being summarily executed by state authorities, whose authority the Cathars didn't recognize, therefore the kings, even those who are enemies of the Holy See, executed Cathars on the spot.

[@cerberus8666]

Do you see many similarities between Catharism and Progressivism? I do. For instance, if you put them on a deserted Island with no others beyond them to convert... they'd die out XD

[@HolyknightVader999]

Damian Sellus I dunno. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

[@NoOne-on2io]

Lol The Nobel families of Langdoc were cathars. All the Nobels had relatives that received the laying of hands and became prefectai. Catharism was a part of daily life in occitainia and there is no historical proof of the shit coming out of your mouth.

[@mickeythompson9537]

Always trust a religious fundamentalist to twist truth literally 180° around and present it as fact. Always trust a religious fundamentalist to demonise people who think even slightly differently to them. Always trust a religious fundamentalist to exterminate other groups.... if they ever get a hold on power.

[@mickeythompson9537]

Julien Henriquez - I'm not your mother.

[@drmkck968]

Is “condemned” the right word? My reading on the Cathers has led me to believe that you could have sex, have children etc but you would have to be reincarnated and lead a different life if you were to shake yourself of the mortal coil of the material world.

[@SpiritOfTheRainbow]

It was their priesthood - parfait(e)s - that were celibate. Ordinary Cathar followers married and had children.

[@styphlynne8253]

@@SpiritOfTheRainbow Absolutely or how would the people replenish LOL Pagens have been put down too. If one doesn't agree with christianity the inquisitions were as bad as Vikings. No choices !

[@landofthesoldcanada6407]

Southern France was heavily colonized by Alan's, a scythian tribe that started knighted groups in aragon Provence.

[@jorgelopez-pr6dr]

Marcionism, anyone?

[@Sawyeraltman]

If they were against childbirth, then why didn't the Church just let them expire themselves?

[@overlord5068]

Because they kept spreading their nonsense

[@styphlynne8253]

sawyeraltman: LOL Right? This is a one sided opinion of Cathars centuries later

[@jacobsladder827]

You would think that if Cathars were actually anti procreation, they could have allowed to self extinction in one or two generations.

[@eddybrevet6816]

Yea, in older history, descriptions were different, were quite promiscuous, otherwise honest, had many virtues,

[@SpiritOfTheRainbow]

It was their priesthood - parfait(e)s - that were celibate. Ordinary Cathar followers married and had children.

[@ludonymous526]

​@@SpiritOfTheRainbowRegardless. They got snuffed out.

[@JackHernandezGentlemanJack]

anti-social?

[@thecrossexaminer3678]

Crusades!

[@dkepa90]

Crusader 33 yap, they whiped them... They were agains evil roman catolic church, we ortodox share same opinion like them, but u know what, they couldnt destroy us and goddes karma will come for them, u know that one depicted as archangel michael with sward in one hand and libra in other.

[@stupidperson9250]

@@dkepa90 hey the orthodox church has done bad stuff too just not as much

[@elating96]

@@dkepa90 karma? are you a pagan?

[@dkepa90]

@@elating96 no, i do not belong to any group, but I prefer sanatana dharma.

[@knuckles9863]

​@@dkepa90 You just sound like a heretical pagan.

[@VoraciousChaos]

*asocial not antisocial.

[@RealCrusadesHistory]

Antisocial is the correct term here.

[@VoraciousChaos]

@@RealCrusadesHistory asocial denotes separation from society (isolation and separation from social norms) Antisocial denotes open, often violent, hostility to society. I'm realizing that I don't know enough about the subject matter to know and am going soley on the context. I will have to assume I was incorrect. My mistake.

[@g0atboy207]

Cat arse

[@yzyzyz44]

Lol

[@ZiraRisasi]

They dig it

[@TheMisstruss]

Sounds eerily like progressive mantra of today

[@Petey0707]

Wtf? It sounds absolutely nothing of progressive-ism lmfao

[@knuckles9863]

@@Petey0707 They are anti-child buddhist flavoured "christians." Sounds pretty progressive to me, lmfao

[@nomore9004]

Heresy never die they just get dumber.

[@ludonymous526]

@@knuckles9863 Well. Buddhists are very different from Cathars.

[@OxAO]

Didn't you talk about once that the Cathars came from the Croatian territory and brought their branch of Gnosticism that still believed in human sacrifices specifically newly born babies?

[@ludonymous526]

Well. This is proof Gnostics hated life.

[@livestreamsrecordingsuk4529]

Cathars and Bogomils are not Heritics educate yourself with the real truth they arrived in England in 1144 & king John was a Baron of them.

[@marcvalade94]

Baptism is a Christ sacrement, actually a John the Baptist sacrement. The Eucharist is a Christ sacrement. The ceremony of the washing of feet is a sacrement of Christ. Beside that their are no other sacrement given by Jesus. So most rejection of the Cathares are justified. The remaining sacrement in the churches are not Christian anymore. Actually all of them are not anymore in the spirit of Christ.

[@AroundElvesWatchUrselves96]

Heretic purge xD

[@InternetStudiesGuy]

What a crappy, self-destructive heresy. Please more about the various heresies that the church put down!

[@titanscerw]

InternetStudiesGuy highly recommended source for you reading pleasure sir would be book - Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc

[@TheGeneralGrievous19]

I always get so angry when people call the Cathars the 'real Christians' when they compare them to the Church. Such falsehood. 😠

[@ludonymous526]

Yeah. It's nothing but pure egotism.

[@veidorje1681]

the first people to behave like real first day's christians in french territory slaughtered by simon de montfort himself mandated by louis de ninth JOHN 3 : 14 kundalini LUKE 2 : 35 kundalini LUKE 8 : 2 cakra cleansing JOHN 1 : 51 double sight JOHN 7 : 10 astral projection remote viewing JOHN 7 : 38 anahata cakra heart center holy shinning heart in religious paintings JOHN 9 : 2 karma reincarnation LUKE 11 : 34 ajna cakra REV 7 : 3 ajna cakra REV 9 : 4 ajna cakra MATH 6 : 6 meditation secret place = pineal gland caduceus = ida nadis ; pingala nadis ; sushumna nadis wings = ajna cakra