Why 6v6 Would Never Work (but 5v5 still sucks)

[@coach_mills]

TLDR: Nerf Genji

[@BuffGenji]

I’m unsubbing

[@rogue4340]

@@BuffGenji 🤣

[@BuffGenji]

@Fultonian-ve1ibthey have been focusing more on increasing the tank and support rosters. Venture is the first dps since echo, which was a long time ago. And DPS lost doom to tank also. DPS just is less limited in hero design, so it made making more much easier for the dev team. Supports need a method of both healing and damage, and that limits them. Tanks need a way to create space and sustain themselves either through self heal or damage mitigation. DPS can do whatever they want

[@artmanrom]

@@BuffGenji OMG Have you been living in a sewer for the last few years!? The first hero released in OW2 was a dps, meaning Soujourn the first after Echo!

[@BuffGenji]

@@artmanromyeah I forgot sojourn lol

[@grr-OUCH]

The tank role is the most stressful. You feel like you let your team down when you fail more than any other role.

[@ludwigvanbeethoven8164]

I have been rank one on support. And let me tell you. Even though me and the rest of the top500 community quit when ow2 came out, when ever I do play, I'm constantly expecting aid from another tank. Its also ridiculous how tanks are unkillable. I literally think of playing overwatch 1 every single day even though its been over 1 year of me quitting.

[@GwydionZ]

6v6 but someone has to play as the payload

[@Bluemansonic]

I WILL BE THE OBJECTIVE, PUSH ME TO VICTORY!!! Wait, why are you just killing each other and I can't move without anybody? NOBODY can hear me? Ok great the enemy is in spawn but uhhhh, OH SOMBRA thank you for back capping oh nevermind you just got shot by a lvl 1 Widowmaker named "Neurf Thius"... Aaaaaand my whole team left.... Gg guys

[@professoradonis8246]

tf2 unironically did this and i would love this as an arcade mode

[@gildinovic1072]

OW2 will simply never be enjoyable for tank players with 1 tank eating all the enemy cooldowns and being hard countered, without another tank to assist.

[@bigfella23729]

this made me realise how annoying me knocking back the roadhog every 4 seconds must be

[@tyreehawkins5403]

Your dps are suppose to push off angles and pull some of those cooldowns but most dps I see or have on my team just hide behind the tank l which makes it ten times worse bc Now theres nothing else for the enemy team to shoot at except the tank. Tank explodes team gets rolled ggs next 😂

[@greenecarlos93]

@@tyreehawkins5403or they do take off angels but they are alone because both support also just hide behind the tank

[@tyreehawkins5403]

@greenecarlos93 I understand my healers hiding behind me tho. As a Tank, me create space, me protect squishy that heal, then me protect squishy. Healers have the lowest hp for the most part and are a critical role. My dps need to get they tails out there and get elims lol. Love all em tho.

[@greenecarlos93]

@@tyreehawkins5403 yeah but it generally Doesn’t take both support to keep the tank up and there’s a lot of value to supporting on off angles as well

[@magnetic9089]

2 Tanks, 3 Dps, 2 Support

[@BaggerFood101]

I was thinking 3 supports to keep the team alive then super charge the dps

[@A10slasher]

@@BaggerFood1013 supports is terrible idea because no one will die support well just heal the tank and dps like reaper bastion and other with high hp it will make it impossible to kill someone

[@Casedilla73]

@@A10slasher What about just 3 dps then?

[@professoradonis8246]

@@BaggerFood101 bro imagine bap lamp, illari turret, pedal pull...... no

[@BaggerFood101]

@@professoradonis8246 this is true f it add another dps 2 tanks 3 dps 3 support. And add a new hero that is a specifically designed to counter utility. Most jokes tho I grew up playing cod and never got the chance to player overwatch I want that classic 6v6.

[@utk8718]

You can't compare the queue times of a paid game that was left to die for three years with a F2P game that is receiving updates like every 2-3 weeks.

[@griefwnl7641]

Literally

[@justeliwood2289]

*leans on table with an evil grin* "4v4?"

[@BobBobIsSwag]

fuck it bro... 1v1

[@SSADO-]

@@BobBobIsSwag Nah. 0v0

[@Nahidwash]

​​@@SSADO-nah -5v-5

[@CrazyKevin22]

That already exists as an arcade mode lol

[@CursedPR]

Just bring 6v6 back. Orisa doesnt have a shield anymore and the new DPS passive makes goats unreliable. Just adjust Sigma shield if you are afraid that Sigma and Rein are too much. Make his shield have a time limit and if he doesnt recall it before the timer expires or it breaks, the cooldown is longer. As for que times, back when Ow1 was around 2016-2018 que times werent that bad. In around late 2019 amd 2020, is when it became a problem, because it was when Ow was beginning to die. Ow2 playerbase is huge. Que times arent gonna be as long. But if it is, then get rid of role que, and make a limited open que. Limited with 2 tanks only, and 3 damage and/or 3 supp. That way, goats wont happen, and every role gets played. And make it where at least 1 tank is needed. If people picked 3 dps and 3 supp already, the last person has to play tank. And sure, its not a perfect solution, but it solves goats, double shields, que times, and the ability to have a second tank lessens the burden of us tank mains. Seriously, 6v6 isnt perfect and does bring problems, but its gonna be a lot better than 5v5.

[@avariciousgaming1695]

There are a few tanks that would counter or give Sig/Rein some issues. Dont think it would be much of an issue.

[@bsmick6]

This is it right here. We need to talk more about bringing 6v6 open queue back. This dev team would be way better at balancing it. Especially because they’ve already taken some steps for it in 5v5 like with the DPS passive

[@Luciferthekingofpurgitory]

If we make it 6v6 open que for ranked it will be hell wanna know why mauga Reinhardt zar illari lw kiriko that would be an unstoppable meta right there and so many metas that ruined the game would come back too everyone would have to be nerfed so much that trying to do anything without having a whole team behind you would become impossible

[@babboondaboss]

I agree except for bringing open queue back, GOATS was not the only problem with it and it was overall bad for the game

[@naterunner256]

you know you've watched too much when you start recognizing the background footage

[@Arr0wzWii]

If they want to keep 5v5 so badly, then fine. It's not even surprising the 5v5 format now has it's own echo chamber at this point. Just bring back 6v6 for open and everything that's not a role queue mode, because it's 6v6 and open queue alone was the actual peak of Overwatch.

[@1stNumberOne]

The reason people don’t want to play tank is because the pressure of the role. Now with 1 tank people want to play it LESS. Just make a 6v6 role que in arcade. Who asked for ranked open que anyway? I think they won’t do it because of pride. If it’s actually successful then it makes their decision for 5v5 look silly and unnecessary. Who like to be wrong 😂? I also find it interesting people complain about que times when I see streamers waiting damn near a half hour to get game NOW.

[@michaelc7418]

There were several things that caused long queue times in 2-2-2, some of which still exist to this day: (1) CC stacking from multiple roles in the match, and Tank is the role most hit by CC because they're in front. Blizzard did not address the CC issue back in OW1, and DPS & Support CC should still be reduced further than the devs did for OW2. -100% Anti-Heal is also a big head-ache for Tanks, especially with the new Tanks in OW2 that would be in 2-2-2, because they are very vulnerable to Anti-Nade. All Anti-Heal in the game should be -50%, and the duration would stack on other Anti-Heal, but not the %. Ana & Junker Queen can receive compensation buffs. (2) The severely imbalanced hero roster of 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports. A lot of people fail to realize that we did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2 released on September 1, 2019. Only new hero we got was Echo, our 17th DPS hero. With a hero roster and release schedule like that, it's no wonder DPS was the most popular role by a lot in OW1. (3) Roadhog & Wrecking Ball were never reworked to at least provide a little bit of sustain to their team. The game in general suffered, but also was too difficult to play Roadhog or Wrecking Ball whenever you wanted because you really always needed a main tank alongside Roadhog or Wrecking Ball. (4) Not shifting the perceived meta fast enough. Orisa + Sigma was meta for too long, not to mention they had way too much sustain when Sigma was released, which made the perception of playing Tank bad. (5) Too few players in the highest ranks. Like you mention, streamers can still get long queue times in OW2, this is because there are so few players able to be matched up. The devs really need to merge ranks together if they want the streamers to not have very long queues.

[@artmanrom]

@@michaelc7418 There is still an open queue, but victory is a role of dice because everyone wants to play dps.

[@1stNumberOne]

@@michaelc7418 sounds like a balance issue.

[@julianebug8409]

@michaelc7418 a lot of 5v5 vouchers seem to forget that Overwatch 2 is free to play now and any game going free to play brings in a ton of new players automatically. 5v5 compared to 6v6 had nothing to do with that.

[@DoubleEm08]

I do think the population argument is a bit tenuous since OW has a ton of concurrent players now and more than OW1 as a F2P game. I also think having a better meta for the majority of role queue would have helped. I am in the camp of making the role more fun by adding more tech and skill ceiling, and do think that would create more players. I also think they should have tried splitting the tank role into Main and Off tank with a few hybrid options. Maybe gearing tanks into better niches and having a no “two off tank/main tank” option would help. I know it would create problems, but you could probably make off tank more fun and create a better defensive, lynch pin identity with most of the main tanks.

[@Deucely]

6v6 address every problem including the design problems, the map problems, the tank experience, the only downside is queue times, which can't be helped anyways. Plus they really only come to a problem for the top 5% of players anyway. But that's a blessing in disguise, just read a book during your queue, so you can better yourself in other areas of your life, since you already are a top 5% OW player, you maniac.

[@mr.blackman3312]

My thoughts exactly

[@SmoodGraphics59]

And that responsibility is what I don’t like and that is why I like to play a tank DPS hybrid like Mauga

[@BagelBoy3]

i really enjoy playing some of the tanks, like hog and dva, but i just can't handle the stress and responsibility of the role. back in the first game i used to play it all the time because someone else was helping me shoulder some of it. if they swapped back to 6v6 i'd certainly start queuing tank again, but as it stands i'm going to just keep playing DPS forever

[@malicious8767]

I would love to see 6v6 return in 2-2-2 as the main gameplay mode OW is balanced around. BUT I think we should keep the open q gamemode and leave it as 5v5. 6v6 is better for role lock, and with being free to play, having new interesting and reworked tanks, the game actually being regularly updated and having more players than ever- we could easily reintroduce 6v6 and have great q times. 5v5 is interesting and I thoroughly believe it is the better format for open queue. With 5v5 open q, there’s a much more interesting dynamic with comps. 1-2-2, 2-1-2, 2-2-1, 3-0-2 etc. all have unique merits and strengths, but most importantly can’t stack too much without losing out on something be it tanking power, raw dps and the dps passive, or supp utility or raw healing. Staying 5v5 also gives open q a more unique identity vs. both modes going 6v6, giving players who want a more super casual, stompy, death match experience a place to play less seriously and still play with a team.

[@heiko2255]

I imagine OW2 keeps losing tank players every season (the Qtimes seem to indicate that) so what happens when the tank population is so extinct, the Qtimes get even worse than they were at the end of OW1? Id say, 6v6 has a GOOD CHANCE of having decent Qs because the game is now F2P, Live-Service and because duo Tank is just inherently more fun than Solo Tanking. Another factor people dont include in the Qtimes discussion, is the kind of tanks that were released. OW1 got Orisa (Boring af gameplayloop), Wrecking Ball (niche hero that needs a lot of time to get good at) and Sigma (Mildly interesting gameplayloop). All of those Pre-Release Tanks are not really something the average Player enjoys, which also meant Qs suffered because of it. Compared to OW2, Doom Rework (Exciting fast paced dive tank), Junker Queen (High Skill, fast paced rush tank), ramattra (A bit slower but interesting in design with his Poke & Pummel) and Mauga (A bit less interesting but Hitscan players could like him, especially when you tune him so that he doesnt have to perma shoot the tank in 6v6) What im saying is, its not just "Qs in OW1 were bad because nobody plays tank", its "Nobody plays tank because of this and this and this, etc." there were so many reasons for people to not play Tank or even Overwatch in general. Even if the DPS Qs get like +30-60s per game after going back to 6v6, I dont think that would be a death sentence to the game, especially when all of the 3 Roles are allowed to have fun at the same time and not like 5v5 have either Tank be Strong (Beta or S1) DPS be Strong (S1 - S2) or Supp be OP (S3 - S8), in 6v6 every role felt about the same strength. You could actually 1v1 a Tank as DPS, i could 1v1 a Zarya has Cassidy, because she only had 400HP and 1 Bubble, instead of 525 and 2 Bubbles. It was just a more well rounded experience. Its true that sometimes you had some bs comp like Ball/Hog who just fed, but please tell me, is it any better in 5v5? Having a Solo Hog, Ball, Doom, etc. feed and not fulfill their role as a tank, is probably even worse in 5v5 which is a lot more steamrolly than 6v6. As someone who had OW1 as their favourite game (and OW2 not even in Top 30) id say going back to 6v6 is worth a shot and would, in my opinion, make the game a lot better.

[@XboxNightmare_NM]

What I don’t understand is why they don’t just try out 6v6 for a week or make it another event where Sombra hacked the system or where Tracer accidentally traveled too far back into time into Overwatch 1’s timeline

[@opmat774]

am i the only tank main in existence that actually likes 5v5 and only having one tank over two

[@ld1449]

Solution is 7v7 3 deeps, 2 tanks and 2 supports. Makes the tank have less pressure, makes the precious DPS que times faster. Win win

[@devincrenshaw4865]

And how is adding another high damage character to shoot at them going to put less pressure on the tank

[@dylanmathew5387]

No please no

[@KURENANI]

This!!!

[@coach_mills]

I think this would have been a better direction than 5v5 for balance sake. Makes it impossible to have highschool and college esports teams though haha

[@F1R3EMBLEM]

I suggested this when they first wanted to change from 6v6. Overall though 6v6 is still the best option but 5v5 is awful for the tank. Literally ridiculous

[@Wulfereene]

Tank is hit or miss. I can have great and fun games as rein, Winston or others. And i can also have horrible games. Just melt. Nothing dies. Dps solo flank and die far away. Same when someone else is tank. Sometimes they just jump or charge in, go around every corner and behind every wall to avoid as much as healing as possible. And sometimes they just play perfect, take space, occupy the enemy, but always stay alive.

[@gyphinix1658]

I can tell you that the amount of negative feedback I recieved when I first started playing tank made me never want to touch the role again. x-x You gotta have tough skin if you want to make it past that steep learning curve.

[@Chr0n0s38]

Honestly tanks may be better off turning off comms. Use the ping system to communicate pushes.

[@michaeljacinto7214]

What he said^ but if your learning choose a 1-2 maybe 3 tanks you like and watch pros or high rank players play them and mimic what they do. If what they say gets to you just turn off text chat. It’s ok if your learning comp is the best way to learn you got this man

[@julianebug8409]

Fr you literally have to be a tank irl too its crazy 💀

[@soundrogue4472]

2:34 I don't like playing tank because it's a role of needing others to feed me resources, it's a role of needing to feed off of my team. My team having to be my shield while I be the sword. It feels horrible to see your genji teammate 5V1 (yes I've seen this happen) and you contribute little to nothing as your genji is being or any other DPS hero is being pumped full of resources while you're feckless. Keep in mind I'm talking about myself being feckless.

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

People don't realize how important Tanks are, lol. They leave them hanging as other roles or people as tanks will be overzelous and over extend when its not needed.

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

Dps dont have too many options, they should provide suppressive fire through the tank, and protect the back line. The problem is both DPS will run off and forget about the objective because they're off chasing kills.

[@Bluemansonic]

​@@MrVIrginiaLUVala Fortnite, Apex, and Call of duty

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

@@Bluemansonic Please clarify

[@Bluemansonic]

@@MrVIrginiaLUV most big shooters nowadays only have 1 main objective, kill the enemy, Overwatch, Paladins, TF2, and Gigantic have a shared goal among a team while killing the enemy makes it easier to achieve it is SECONDARY to the main goal of their respective MAIN MODES. Even The Finals is about objectives over kills but getting kills is slightly more important in that game

[@MrVIrginiaLUV]

@@Bluemansonic Overwatch's main goals are not killing the enemy, it's taking control of the objective. Your team can kill the most, and die the least and still lose by not playing to take control of the objective. Playing to take the objective means staying alive, making sure your team is alive. You can't have a team fight possibly go in your favor if you're not on the map. When you try to squeeze as many 5 v 5s in that time that we have, you hopefully will be on the team that's more refined and have game sense enough to play their role, and not try to do too many things at once. Like a Tank trying to mitigate damage and defend the backline, when there are 4 other players that should be able to handle that (Tank is the backbone of the line up. Like a DPS who try to flank together with the other DPS instead of one watching our Support's backs. (Support are the endurance of the team) Like Supports that both want to fight instead of disengaging and grouping up. That stuff can help, but you cant do it on your own, you need coordination. The game isnt about eliminations at all, its about the current objective, whatever that is. I play Ranked, so there is no TDM or Deathmatch, rn so this makes no sense to me. I win a lot of games by us simply playing our roles and acting like like a team. I want my team to be able to all no die over 15 times. I can die under 10 most matches, but it's harder for a lot of people, and not due to them being ass, but their "tunneling" mindset. People will tunnel thinking..."This play may net me POTG, I'll risk it all." People try to meet enemies at their spawn, but die and cost us valuable team fights due to them thinking the game is solely about them making a grand impact, instead of the team.

[@ieToastie]

There are no perfect solutions to game design. But sacrificing the art of Overwatch to keep the game afloat is a worst case scenario for me (ie where we are now). There are things to experiment with, and I won’t stop trying until we find a compromise that works. The current concept I’m testing on my discord is a 6v6 format with semi-open role restrictions. No role queue for any of the players, but a team cannot have more than 4 damage heroes, more than 4 support heroes, or more than 2 tank heroes. So far, the reception has been optimistic. 1-4-1 team setups are not uncommon but also not entirely flawed thanks to the power creep the damage role has received over the years. This gives players agency to swap to any hero in the game in most cases, and is very reminiscent of classic Overwatch. If something similar to this was implemented in live Overwatch, it would greatly help with queue times by no longer requiring a subset of roles before a match can start. If paired with something like a proper tournament mode, this is a net positive for both the casual and core audience of the game.

[@zellsidious4459]

I’m a og masters tank player now the role is only fun in open que haven’t touched the role in 6 seasons certain tanks need another tank simple 6v6

[@Ghajestis]

honestly 7v7 would be an interesting concept lmfao

[@lambalamba240]

Y porque no 9 vs 9 o 10 vs 10? Sería un juego new

[@Vraxxtracks7]

Honestly it should be 50% because tanks such as Roadhog wrecking ball Reinhardt and doom fist get counter way too heavily by CC effect and if they make one single mistake it’s the end of them and with that passive it makes tanks more viable in a fight because they’re not constantly getting punished all the time and even if they get punished they don’t get punched as hard so car is such a Sombra Don’t have a very big impact on tanks, such as wrecking ball because even wrecking Ball gets hacked He can immediately get back in ball form so he can escape.

[@sparquisdesade]

The queue time arguement keeps getting more hilarious to me as the game gets worse. I'm a low rank an right now my dps queues are 15-30 minutes at any given point.

[@greyfalconow9467]

It's actually really easy. Give Tanks a passive that ignores 50% of the duration of negative status effects.

[@ajtheghostblood]

Ok but what happens when hog and mauga now are unkillable? Just one example but essentially it would make tank even more counterswap meta than it is now ( which i personally dont think would be good for the game)

[@Dark_Souls_3]

Silver comment

[@greyfalconow9467]

@@ajtheghostblood You just directly adjust their survival rates by adjusting their HP and Defensive cooldown. Easy.

[@alphaluc1008]

​@@greyfalconow9467 "easy" have you actually worked in game balance? It is never easy.

[@DruidOneTrickDnD]

1) That won’t take away the responsibility of playing tanks. 2) Having unstoppable, unkillable tanks will not be fun for any of the other roles.

[@wolfgangreindeer8891]

I've being playing tank for years- I recently started playing open queue again- most of the time it's much, much more fun! As mentioned, when you have 2 tanks, the responsibility is shared- the gameplay for tanks has a much softer more forgiving edge- small mistakes don't get brutally punished, and you get yelled at. More importantly you're not connected to the point/cart by a strategic bungee-cord anymore! For example, now as DVA I can chase down and kill a widow in the back line, and come back to point and start unloading missiles into the enemy team causing chaos, without finding my whole team dead, as the enemy tank just walked through my team without me there! I can flank, I can come back to point to support the other tank etc- it's a lot more fun again like OW1 was for tank. With OW2, most of the time you can't stray very far from team, or cart- again as mentioned, you just sit on cart and cycle cool-downs, and hope you get enough heals, and don't die- and then get flamed for it. Even with careful management, your shield, DM etc can get melted, then you die. You don't get a chance to make plays, and manage your shields, as you're stuck there (or close by). Another major thing that I noticed, was that it mellowed out annoying/troublesome characters- they have a Mauga for example- oh well it's not that bad- the 2 tanks can cycle their shields etc, and protect team, then both tanks jump on him and finish him off. Yeah Orisa is irritating, but can be killed or DVA can ignore her, and run around the back and kill some squishies, then come back and help finish the Orisa off. No one seems overpowered/overbearing like in role cue at times- the balancing seems a lot more forgiving. Open Queue is a breath of fresh air IMO, I'm not bored anymore. Even if it's 1 tank, you still can get some interesting comps like 4 DPS, and some teams with 5 DPS! The recent double-up weekend in Open Queue was just wild! Double Reins and a DVA anybody? Seriously the most fun I've ever had in OW!!

[@DillonU2]

1. Queue times- Queue times were better in OW1 2020 after they dropped the best balance patch in OW history than they are now in OW2. Even old players like Seagull came back to the game during that time. We just remember when the queue times got bad at end of OW1 in 2021 because it's more recent. This was adressed in KarQ's recent videos. 2. Responsibility, freedom and flexibility- This is purely a 5v5 format problem. 6v6 tanking will always be more fun because there is a second body absorbing damage and that alone takes pressure off of the other tank. Saying that people didnt play tank role correctly or they chose a tank duo that didnt synergize doesnt change that. 3. 5v5- Only having one tank forces more counter swaps even all the way down to low ranks while in 6v6 counter swapping was only really used in high ranks. You say that we would have long queue times in 6v6, but reason a lot of people left is BECAUSE of the switch to 5v5 and also double-shield (Although double-shield wouldn't be a problem anymore due to the Orisa rework). So a lot of people would surely come back if switched back to 6v6, especially tank players.

[@estebandolero1]

Denying 6v6 is like saying you won't try a remedy just because you don't think the poison ivy is that bad.

[@thomashindle6315]

Speaking as a OW1 tank main/ OW2 support main, the reason I stopped playing tank is I can't be assed waiting 5-10 minutes in a tank queue when I can find a game in less than a minute on support... I blame the fact that they made it 5v5, I think what Blizzard should do is go back to 6v6 and remove the tank health buffs they got when OW2 was released.

[@alehandrostoimenov2143]

Just go 12v12 like TF2. Problem solved

[@cmmcfielful]

The tank role is a role of responsibility but “space is only held when there is a threat to actually hold it” as a tank i could open space all the way to enemy spawn, if my other teammates can’t secure a kill to maintain the space i have to back out because they are not applying pressure. If we had 2 tanks more plays could open up in different ways.

[@f0kes32]

Removing one tank doesn't mean that main tank becomes less valuable than an off tank. So we either get a meta where main tanks are dominant (mauga, sigma, orisa), or one particular off tank is so broken that there is no reason not to play it. (junker queen meta, zarya meta, roadhog meta). In the end of the day tank player is STILL forced to pick the "correct" tank, that what makes playing tank role uninteresting. Second tank missing just puts more pressure on your pick phase, because if the enemy tank has an upper hand over you it feels way worse than before. I don't agree that responsibility is what makes tank role undesirable. Look at LoL or Dota, where carry/ads is the most popular role, and mid is the second most popular.

[@Natsuki_Sufferu]

What if they separated an off tank from a main tank?

[@tycho2468]

I actually never realized i felt this way till u mentioned it. I literally hop on to play zen and chill. I just frag out n do whatever.

[@soundrogue4472]

4:12 this is exactly why I like defensive roles in TF2, you have classes with defensive options AND the ability to tank comes down to the benefit of the uber charge from the medic.

[@Quisshy]

i feel like something that would help a bit with tanks is making it to where they are much less affected by things like sleep and hack, and have more hp, because while they do have a lot of hp, i think its definetly not enough. in my experience of playing tank, as soon as i get into the game everyone swaps to counter me, everyone targets me directly, everyone uses every cooldown imaginable on me, and i die almost instantly. tanks need to be much more powerful, and while it would make dps and supports frustrated, i think its still better than tanks having the worst lives imaginable.

[@TheAtheistChef]

I believe I may have a solution . Why not make all tanks more off-tank in nature . reduce their health/ armor but make them more deadly. Ex. Rein has Smaller shield, less health and shield health , move faster , more fire strikes , reduce cool down on his pin and make it less punishing for missing, give him dmg reduction during it. Then design maps to have no choke points where big team battles would take place . If the maps are designed in a way to where there’s no need for tanks then there is less responsibility felt. They could make it more like a typical arena shooter with wider areas, more paths , more flanking, etc Not an easy fix for sure . Re doing maps and reworking tanks is no small order , but i think it’s the only way that I haven’t heard proposed before

[@jerod4036]

I think the best way to make tank feel better is to reduce the number of things they need to keep track of. You gotta be careful of sleep dart, anti nade, mei wall, bastion turret, and you have a mauga continuously outputting copious amounts of damage to you. You have to keep track of all 5 of those things because each one individually can screw you up in a hurry. After finally dealing with all those five abilities, you might think oh now I can finally kill this mei who screwed up and got too close. NOPE, they get suzu'd, or lifegripped or just get straight raw healing that prevents you from making a play. My issue is that there are so many potentially deadly abilities that I need to keep track of as a tank but it doesn't feel like the enemy dps and supports need to be careful of my abilities.

[@500ncb]

since ow1 when they were experimenting with 1-3-2, i already thought that it could be 2-3-2 (7v7)

[@esedess]

Just give Rein his own Zarya shield, that would solve everything!

[@loaf5699]

What if we made tank have a damage reduction pass and it increases to 15-20 % when having 4 enemies in your vicinity. This will make it so tanks could withhold space for longer periods of time when enemies are near. This reduces in damage passive only works against other roles, so tank won’t get this effect when shooting the tank with the passive active. Edit: I also wanted to clarify that if it was like a dps or healer by themselves attacking a tank they won’t get a reduction in damage. I would say every enemy would get 5% damage reduction towards the tank, per person in the tanks vicinity Just spitballing ideas out bc I feel like the tank roll lost its meaning in a way. Obviously I think there would have to be some balancing along side this change, but idk just wanted to throw something out there, sorry if it’s a bit jumbled.

[@_ben_miller]

tanks also have more boring kits, on average, than the other roles. it's also unsatisfying to kill a squishy as a tank. it's like stepping on ants.

[@DruidOneTrickDnD]

I’ve always thought it might be interesting if they tried to shift some of the power that the off-tanks had into certain supports. Off-tanks helped alleviate a lot of pressure from the main tank with their peeling abilities. They also made it so that counter-swapping was less of an issue because they could help compensate for the other tank’s weaknesses. My suggestion would be to make healing more universal and make it so that supports don’t have to rely on it as their main class identity. That way you have more opportunities to design supports that can fill in that off-tank role without making them throw-picks because they can’t heal / can’t heal as well. Just an idea. If we can’t get 6v6 back then I think support is the perfect role - and really the only role - to try and shift that off-tank role towards. I think that a lot of support players would be happy to fill that role too, because they naturally enjoy enabling people. In an ideal world, we could just return to 6v6, but I’ve accepted that it’ll never happen because of the queue times. OR just get rid of the tank role tbh. Rework them into Brawlers with better self-sustain. That’s basically what Blizzard is already trying to do anyway.

[@salihnu]

The issue is, that not all tanks want to tank or only tank. D.Va and other tanks have great mobility and would love to take some flank options or attack from off-angles. And sometimes it is just as hard as a tank. Take any mission where you need to take a point and defend it. What tank would you pick if you have a widow, a tracer, a Kiriko, and an Ana in your team?

[@Pieceofsock]

First of all, great video! Thank you for putting time and effort in to this community! Secondly, a suggestion Not really a suggestion on how to fix the game (I'm plat - I won't find one if I'll make it my life's goal), but an idea on the approach to finding a solution if there is one. I think it makes sense to look into how it works in an offline world. And try to copy it. There are "roles" that come with a lot of responsibility, and yet some people take on the mantle. Like: parenting, management of the company, presidency, etc. And the reasons vary wildly from case to case, of course. I understand, that we can't pay Winton players, and Reinharts don't have an instinct to play and care for their team. But I'm confident that there's a role, a position of some sort, the benefits of which could be translated into OW2 tl;dr: buff Ana

[@_ben_miller]

maybe making it tank, dps, support, and the rest as flex spots would help, where it fills the roles first, then everyone else gets to pick whatever, which would probably make tanking more fun (since you could have another tank for help), and i think shorter queue times?

[@Flightkid90]

Lol i love how everyone is saying delete a role. When MANY PROS AND CONTENT CREATORS have said.........all we meeded was double shield gone. The fact we have one less tank to mit effect,dmg, protect, distract..etc is the issue. The reworked Orisa for OW2 would've solved the issue with OW1...reducing sigs shield health too 500 not 700 and a 2sec longer cooldown would've solved all the issues....but now we have this mess. When the real issue is ZEN DISCORD ORB that needs to go so tanks can ta k or reduce the effect too 15%-18% not 30%!!!! They just don't want to offend the two roles played the most...dps and Supps. Beem this way since OW2.1

[@Rivler20]

Great comment.

[@amadhatter3280]

As a (former off) Tank player the 1 tank problem isn't "responsibility" the problem is that 1 tank can't deal with everything on their own (and good luck getting your useless DPS players to help) e.g. The other day I had a game as DVa where I was fighting their Doomfist (pocketed by a Mercy) 90% of the time, but their Tracer was also flanking & killing the healers so I had to help them out (because the DPS wouldn't deal with the problem leaving Doomfist to shot me in the ass), then the Echo would just focus me down (and again the DPS players wouldn't help) so the game was basically 4v3 (me-DVa, Lucio & Moira vs Doomfist, Tracer, Echo & Mercy). Because the DPS were a non factor it made the game feel horrible & this problem of bad players is worse in 5v5 because 1 player has a bad game (which happens) then your team is screwed. In 5v5 the single tank just has too much to deal with & without the DPS's help you can't do anything, you have have the game of your life but it doesn't change anything. 5v5 puts the "responsibility" onto the DPS players who are 9/10 not very good. If I had another Tank even if it was Roadhog we could've spilt the responsibility & had more fun then me & the 2 healers working overtime just to keep the game alive so the DPS can do nothing. I know I've sh!t on the DPS players, but because its the most popular role your going to get a lot of the unless Tik-Tok generation playing it (especially since its free & the role that gets highlighted the most) who don't want to play the game they just to play Team Deathmatch (which to be fair other games are having this issue as well, Tik-Tok'ers not wanting to play X they just want to play Team Deathmatch & get views).

[@soundrogue4472]

1:20 so the tank role can't create value but take value (mostly speaking) so the most important role is the support and not the tank. The problem is the things around the tank.

[@michaelc7418]

There were several things that caused long queue times in 2-2-2 that had nothing to do with the format itself: (1) CC stacking from multiple roles in the match, and Tank is the role most hit by CC because they're in front. Blizzard did not address the CC issue back in OW1, and DPS & Support CC should still be reduced further than the devs did for OW2. -100% Anti-Heal is also a big head-ache for Tanks, especially with the new Tanks in OW2 that would be in 2-2-2, because they are very vulnerable to Anti-Nade. All Anti-Heal in the game should be -50%, and the duration would stack on other Anti-Heal, but not the %. Ana & Junker Queen can receive compensation buffs. (2) The severely imbalanced hero roster of 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports. A lot of people fail to realize that we did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2 released on September 1, 2019. Only new hero we got was Echo, our 17th DPS hero. With a hero roster and release schedule like that, it's no wonder DPS was the most popular role by a lot in OW1. (3) Roadhog & Wrecking Ball were never reworked to at least provide a little bit of sustain to their team. The game in general suffered, but also was too difficult to play Roadhog or Wrecking Ball whenever you wanted because you really always needed a main tank alongside Roadhog or Wrecking Ball. (4) Not shifting the perceived meta fast enough. Orisa + Sigma was meta for too long, not to mention they had way too much sustain when Sigma was released, which made the perception of playing Tank bad. (5) Too few players in the highest ranks. High rank streamers can still get long queue times in OW2, this is because there are so few players able to be matched up. The devs really need to merge ranks together if they want the high rank players to not have very long queues.

[@ancienthybrid]

5v5 this, 6v6 that fuck it 7v7 - 2 tanks, 2 healers, 3 dps let's see what happens

[@Troy-gk8pr]

or 1-3-1

[@mizoik9893]

So I just watched a whole video with a thumbnail for 7v7 and have heard none about it why

[@joshuataylor5080]

For the long-term health of the game, Tanks cannot be left in their current state. I sincerely don't think we'll ever go back to 6v6, but we need to acknowledge that 5v5 is causing massive problems that NEEDS to get fixed for the long-term health of the game. A few counter arguments: 1. Queue times died in Overwatch 1 because the devs abandoned the game for years and therefore most of the playerbase left. Yes, tanks were already the smallest player-base so it was most evident with them, but the addition of difficulty in finding two extra tanks WAS NOT the cause of those 20 min queues. An abandoned game was the problem. 2. Keeping the 5v5 format is going to increase queue times over the long-term. If we continue to sacrifice tank character design, identity, flexibility and the tank players enjoyment of the game on the alter of queue times, those queue times ARE GOING TO GET LONGER as the remaining tank players simply stop playing the role or move onto other games were they are having fun. You can only punch/kick a starving animal so much before it eventually bites you back. 3. If you go back to 6v6 could decrease queue times in the long term. Yes, queue times will get longer initially, BUT, if it makes tanking fun again more people would play tank. Over time, this would allow growth in the tank player base rather than a decline. Simply saying "there isn't a solution" isn't good enough.Tanks players are getting burnt out and soon there won't be many of us left. As a tank player, I genuinely love Overwatch but I'm starting to take longer and longer breaks from the game because tanking can be so miserable.

[@HeismanJax]

Well said. I main support but I play DPS almost as frequently now. I almost never play tank and a big reason is because I don’t like being the only one. It’s weird because I honestly enjoy the games I’m forced to play it in QP but I just hate having that responsibility to myself.

[@Sandwyrm]

it's true, I hate responsibility

[@soundrogue4472]

2:53 I've seen a Genji and other DPS roles such as Sombra keep a tank in check, it's not just a tank responsibility, again plenty of DPS roles keep the tank role in check.

[@michaelconner9208]

Role Queue was also a response to GOATs. Until season 9 of Overwatch 2 you could run 2 tanks 3 supports and do par or better than role queue comp. DPS was a filler role

[@Ron742_]

Maybe keep 5v5, but make tanks tankier and make it so the DPS passive doesn't apply to them.

[@grr-OUCH]

Hmm, that might work. Right now, sometimes the tank will lose a duel with a DPS.

[@heiko2255]

They tried making tanks more tanky but deal less dmg, doesnt work. 1. People just ignore you if youre not a threat 2. Nobody wants to be a tank that doesnt do anything, so there will be even less people who Q Another point is, tank, in 5v5, is just very very boring. As someone who loved Tank in OW1 and climbed to T500 with it, even if i played a duo with a Hog or with a Ball, it was still infinietly more interesting and more dynamic than Solo Tanking, bad Synergies could happen, but they werent worse than having a inting Doomfist jump into a Mauga for the 8th time

[@Ron742_]

@@heiko2255 Did they try making them tankier and deal the same dmg they do now? That would make them a threat. I think in general it's just not as popular of a role as the other two. So how would needing two of them every match in 6v6 affect queue times? I can see how people would miss the OW1 two tank synergy, but IMO being the only tank means you have to do something, as the team relies on you more, so I wouldn't find that boring. But the issue is getting focused fire and getting melted.

[@heiko2255]

@@Ron742_ ​ They tried an experimental patch in OW1 where the tanks were tankier but dealt less damage 1. Just straight up making them even more tankier and dealing same damage like you suggested would be OP as fuck lol. And then how do you balance that 50HP not really a lot but 100HP might already be too much so idk about that. 2. Yes Tank is less popular, thats just a reality in every game that has tanks but there is a GIANT BUT Tank in OW1 had allowed you to play anything you want (unless you were T500/Pro) and make it work. You could play Rein into a Hog, you could play Winston into a Reaper, etc. it gave the player more flexbility, because every tank had less Stats and because you had a 2nd tank to help you You might think "What if my 2nd Tank doesnt synergize and just goes Hog" even then, that Hog flanking eats up some of the pressure, CC and Damage the enemies would otherwise throw at you. And if they do synergize with you you could have one of the best experiences in OW ever and i truly mean that. The boring part of Solo Tank gameplay doesnt come from the responsibility, you had that in OW1 aswell but it was split between 2 tanks. The problems now are 1. Counterswaps which either make you swap or make you play in a certain way that is boring eg. peeking and getting melted to 10HP so that you have to hide behind a corner and wait or playing into an unfavourable matchup where you just get bullied 2. Playstyles are incredibly dull, the game basically turned into "3... 2... 1... GO" in terms of strategy, you just run at the enemy and fight, thats good enough for a Deathmatch but not peak Overwatch and many heroes who had different playstyles (Hog denying flanks or flanking himself, Ball setting up knocks for the team to engage, reinhardt dueling the other tanks for space and pushing them back, etc.) they dont really exist anymore or got watered down a lot so that they dont function properly. I mean, all Hog does now is stand on point and survive endlessly, ball just rolls through the enemy and rein now has to just go on these crazy charge engages to maybe pick something (if he doesnt get ccd out of it) OW1 had setups, depth, tank exchange, you could actually outplay the other players in so many ways it was incredibly fun, by having 2 Tanks face 2 other you could actually just trade some damage back and forth and not completly commit to an engage and get rolled as soon as one of the tanks died. Also, I dont know if you played OW1 but as Duo Tank you always had something to do aswell. Sorry for the wall of text, but i really like those discussions

[@Ron742_]

​@@heiko2255 Well, if devs insist on 5v5, and only having one tank, and tanks are 'not a threat' as you say, they would have to do something different, like make them tankier and do more damage, even if scaled back damage from what it is now. Balance patches could solve that. There's not many options here with the current 5v5; unless you have a better idea? I do wonder how the game would be with 2 tanks, 1 DPS, 2 supports. I think the new DPS passive just really made playing tank even worse. It was more tolerable before in OW2 before that new passive, imo. I think tank synergy was cool in OW1; I've been playing since 2016 and have hundreds of hours on the tank role in OW1. After playing OW2 since 2022, I like less bottlenecks, less time shooting at shields, and a faster paced game. People might say "well that's not OW", and I get that, but it comes down to personal preference and opinion. I do think a little nostalgia factors in too. The game is still very popular, old players have adapted to the new format, or new players don't mind it. As much as I can tell it matters a great deal to you to have that synergy and depth back, I'm not sure it matters enough to the devs to bring it back on that alone for one role. There has to be some beneficial reason why the format was switched to 5v5. Queue times? That matters. If the player base somehow declines a lot over the next 2-3 years, I could definitely see them trying out 6v6 again, because at that point, they have nothing else to lose. They would just have to feel like doing some major re-balancing, which could impact other roles, because naturally the game and each hero are balanced for the current 5v5 format.

[@RoseMotaung-bf1kb]

TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN...MUCH IS TESTED

[@myleshungerford7784]

I tried tanking this season. It was miserable. I was flamed in chat all the time, and when I flamed back I got reported and silenced by Blizzard for the first time in 7 years. I went back to playing support/dps after that.

[@hiimnifty3625]

What about 6v6 but the 6th role is "off tank" like a bruiser or fighter tune down some tanks like zarya, or slightly tune up dps like venture or mei, and make them bruisers. They can take some pressure off the tank, help peel supports, or finish or set up kills better for dps.

[@originalmachine85]

Do tanks still get less healing? That should be reverted if dps and support got passives.

[@juakored]

I only see two way outs, but both would require a better matchmaker, which has not been a thing since 2016, so I doubt we'll ever get either. 1- 6v6. The issue with this one is the same we've already experienced in the past. You get a sub optimal tank combination, and now you just lose before even leaving the spawn. You get 2 people who want to play off tanks. GG. We've all been there in the past. Possible solution: dividing the role into main tank and off tank for separate Q's. Issue? Nobody is gonna play main tank. Why? Same reason nobody wants to play tank now. Too much responsibility, 0 reward, 0 fun, playing the counter game all match = no fun allowed. 2- 5v5, but tanks are THE most impactful role. Issues: A- because the matchmaker is objectively dogshit, we'll get 50/50 matches decided entirely on tank diffs. B- other roles WILL start crying about tanks being too op. 3- they simply make tanks TANKIER. Maybe make them immune to CC. Make it so that they won't blow up as soon as they peek through a corner (which is something I've seen as a common complain amongst the community). Issue? Tanks are 100% going to bully supps like Ana who's only survival option is her sleep dart, or can't deal enough damage to force the tank to back off (and we all know hoping for your teammates to help you is never an option... Even if this is, you know, a TEAM GAME). No matter what path they take, there's no magic utopic solution, and I do not think the development team is even remotely capable of reaching a satisfactory conclusion. They'd need to re-balance and re-work too much shit, and I doubt they have the time or resources to do so. They'll probably just keep things like they are and hope for the best. Hopefully not, but I have 0 hope left for OW.

[@soundrogue4472]

2:11 solution; no role queue and have anyone playing any hero role.

[@tyreehawkins5403]

I dnt think queue times would be an issue for tank if they went back to 6v6 bc the game is now f2p. B4 there was an entry fee which kept alot of ppl away but now anyone can just hop in and play. The issue is balancing two tanks.

[@DejaraUndead]

what if with 5v5, we swap up the team composition where we switch out 1 of the healers for a second tank and see how that goes, it would shift some of the pressure off the solo tank which I think would help more people try or just play tank

[@kadeskywalker8367]

Get a newbie tank and your team is screwed

[@dopaliscious318]

But then it’s impossible to not be a newbie tank cause no one gives you a chance

[@KURENANI]

overreaction

[@Dark_Souls_3]

@@dopaliscious318that’s the climb baby!! Imagine how bored the top 500’s are, remember the feeling of climbing into a new rank for the first time? It’s called the grind

[@dopaliscious318]

@@Dark_Souls_3yeah, I get it, but how willing is someone to grind when you get a toxic team mate every other game. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@nemil2898]

What do you think about Samito's idea that the developers have created too many DLC heroes with no weaknesses or with too many immortal abilities in their kits? If those kit abilities were removed, would that potentially fix it? Seems like the core design right now is to attempt to make every new hero as invincible as possible, instead of designing a core flaw to keep things balanced. idk. food for thought.

[@jonathanrose9677]

6:10 You might be misremembering here? Roll lock, I'm my eyes, was definetly to STOP people from playing tank. Goats made it so DPS were never picked. We, as I remember, only had the no one wants to play tank problem once roll que was added.

[@Digger-Nick]

6v6, force people to queue for 2 roles, and revert all the tank changes... Problem solved. This only gets better the more heroes they add

[@rocknu55]

Yeah I play mostly tank and it's frustrating being the only one that touches the point, and you have to create space, eat all the bullets, peel for your teammates, be invincible, and get blamed if you dont win.

[@brandonwiedenfeld4364]

Make tank fun again by giga buffing every tank. dps and supports then run for their lives and try to enable their tank. This might make the other two roles less fun but tanking would be more fun for sure. I think dps and support would still be fun though as it would be more of a game of survival for them, rather than pray your tank doesn't feed.

[@romeda5156]

Naw bring 6v6 back

[@elzian4975]

3 tanks 2 dps 2 supports. Brilliant.

[@emirwattabor6991]

The answer; Delete the tank role. It's an inherently flawed concept. Take the fun parts of tank and disperse them to DPS and support.

[@lyle7836]

I don’t mind the long queue times i just watch KZbin and stuff while I wait honestly sometimes I queue DPS just to have more of a break between games

[@SquishPuddles]

Here is how we do 6v6 without doing 6v6 Let 1 person play 2 tanks at the same time boom. Queue times are the same and less suffering for tanks.

[@LKRBooks]

There were times when I wished I had hit scan while being on a projectile. Or mobility when I had someone who couldn’t be as agile. I’m guessing you mean give tanks the ability of two tanks so they can manage different situations?

[@SquishPuddles]

@@LKRBooks Sorry I was literally memeing being able to control 2 different tanks at the same time lol

[@thonderstorms5256]

they could just turn tanks into just large dps, reducing queue times and lessening the responsibility on tanks, because they wouldn't exist as role.

[@Hot_SpicyGrill]

Thanks where fine in Overwatch one. A reaper could kill a Winston. Then support was power crept and they put mercy’s revive as a cool down rather then her ultimate.

[@fablefan69]

There isn't a solution, it's the same thing with American Football; Lineman and Linebackers are arguably some of the most integral players on the field, with some of the most responsibility yet they go unsung and the positions themselves are considered unpopular and very difficult. Tanks are still the most fun role in my opinion, but to fix the issue of heavy responsibility coupled with being in lots of lose-lose scenarios with your teammates is going to happen and the only way to fix it is to remove tanks, which would completely ruin the game.

[@mattlss]

Introduce a single queue. Every other game has a single queue not a role queue. Everybody queues the same queue. The team is restricted to 2-2-2 same way that the team is restricted on having more than one of the same hero (aka role LOCK (not queue)). Fixed. 6v6 2-2-2 fast queue times.

[@dantecarlone646]

Honestly just make every tank broken. It’s a role that should make you feel like a boss. You should be able to play hog and sit in a team fight for a minute before thinking about healing. This would take a lot of consideration to make each tank as good as each other but if they managed then tank imo would be much more fun

[@someguyinazoo]

I’m 5v5 Tank feels like it’s you against the other team YOUR are the one deciding the game and you definitely feel it.

[@corbinallen4562]

6v6 feels better than 5v5 alot of tanks like hammond and reinhardt feel useless without another tank. I feel like overwatch just inherently is always going to have some necessary evils. Cc is needed to keep flankers in check and this is coming from a ball main. Or former ball main before overwatch 2. Also they should remove the cool down on grappling because it would be funny and they should give him a double jump.

[@kelseykent1196]

Like I’ve said to a lot of people I’ve never played Overwatch 1. Only saw a few clips. I’ve started last year playing OW2 and it’s a lot of fun. But I would love to see 6v6

[@bsmick6]

We need 6v6 open queue for chaos and fun and 4v4 role queue for serious coordinated team play

[@zage932]

4v4 is too small for dedicated ranked modes. Spawn times, ult cool downs, healing output, damage, and objectives would need to be much faster across the board.

[@bsmick6]

@@zage932 well, both teams would have some disadvantages. Also, some of what you listed contradicts: why would healing and dmg need to be increased? spawn times and obj? it sounds like you still want the chaos of 5v5 or 6v6 in a format that would be meant to avoid it

[@mikestrangebeats2033]

If they bring back 6v6, I’ll start playing again

[@darkeghost3667]

As a tank player I want 6v6 back, 5v5 ks just so punishing and unfun as the lone tank.

[@julianebug8409]

People seem to forget that Overwatch went free to play with the launch of Overwatch 2. When a game goes free to play that brings in a *lot* of new players so idk why it seems like every 5v5er ignores that very obvious fact. I wouldn't have played if it werent for the game going free to play and i'd argue its like that for a lot of new players. Do yall really think people see all the clips of people shit talking each other and the non existent new cinematics are what drew new players in along with finding out that the game is now 5v5? No im pretty sure a lot of people did what I did. They seen a new game to play because its free and they decided to try it out. Its honestly so dumb how theres people who are so against 6v6 that they don't even wanna test it out. How do you know somethings bad if you don't even try it? They've tried balancing 5v5 for so long and look where its at rn... Nowhere near fun and barely even balanced. If they wanna let 5v5 ride on in the state that its in thats fine I get it, people enjoy 5v5 but thats the thing theres also people that enjoy 6v6. Its so strange that people who only want 5v5 don't realize the main issue of not letting players have a choice in the matter. People should be able to play what they want to play without someone else telling them that they won't enjoy it and it won't be good. It makes no sense to tell people what their opinions are supposed to be.

[@Spika94]

Ok, so maybe there is "no solution" but we shouldn't twiddle our thumbs and be stuck with one of the worse solutions. Pick the best available one and THEN twiddle the thumbs till a better one is found. Sticking to 5v5 is like intentionally standing in the fire, while pouring gasoline at your feet hoping it will put out the fire...

[@spence6195]

I will NEVER play tank in Overwatch 2, not without a second tank

[@TheAzureSky1]

1. Go back to 6v6. 2. Make tanks more fun. Remember Mirrorwatch where Reinhardt swings got faster on hits? Fun AF. Let tanks be DPS like how support now are basically DPS. 3. Literally pay them in premium coins. Dynamic pricing/pay. If one role needs players, pay better. 4. Let actual DPS become the most "bland" role. People will be like "Yo, tank and support looks fun to play, lemme try that".

[@TheChudMuffin]

Coach Mills just made a strong case for going back to 6v6 role lock or 5v5 with 2 tanks,1 damage,2 supports.

[@Chr0n0s38]

Balance-wise 2-1-2 would be healthier, but you're missing one key detail - queue times. DPS has always been the most popular role. Making that the role with the fewest players will kill queue times. You'd basically double them from what they were at the end of OW1. The game would die insanely quickly. Removing role lock also seems good at first, but you quickly get back to no one queuing tank. Play a little open queue and you'll find that when it works, it's better than role queue, but when your team doesn't care it is far more miserable.

[@BingChiller227]

nah, you're tripping. 6v6 has and always will be the sweet spot.

[@Helpfulchase]

The main issue with Tank is that you don’t have the freedom to play what you want anymore and you cannot replace tank game play synergy with amped up healers and toned down dps. Even in the end of OW1 with goats meta and hardly 1 new character a year it was more fun than it is now because there was so much more you could do. It forced you to work with your team and other tank more. 6v6 > 5v5 easy any day of the week if your a tank player. Which is why you continue to see horrible cue times for DPS and Healers nowadays and even though there is only half the required players at tank role the QUE for tank is like 1min 24/7 because people don’t want to play a 1 dimensional swap fest where you can’t take any risks or your team gets rolled and you lose the fight…. 7v7 or 8v8 would be interesting at least but people don’t want to play tank because it’s not fun anymore. Anyone here saying 5v5 is more fun is obviously a healer or dps main