Why a Support Pokémon Is Being Called "Overpowered"

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[@FreezaiPokemon]

Thanks to Factor75 for sponsoring today's video. Go to strms.net/factor75_freezai_live and use code POGFREEZAIOCT50 for 50% off your first box!

[@amirashqar6485]

How do you get that in India don't they only deliver in continental USA?

[@Bruhktghnfgf]

No. I don't think I will.

[@Nosue-vw5rj]

genuinely sounds like a service I could use rn lol

[@marioponce8482]

I remember people saying Gholdengo would be one of the first Pokemon to be banned from OU when Scarlet and Violet launched. Here we are, a year later, and people are bringing this up again because of Gliscor. Kind of a tricky question to answer on what should happen now.

[@troykv96]

I wonder if people feel hesitant to ban Gholdengo because he isn't fast (he was hard checked by the previous Top Pokémon), but now that the existence of more ground types made Great Tusk a lot less reliable... what is stopping Gholdengo?

[@ohmnabar3104]

imo it never stopped being banworthy, but people were (rightfully) focused on the absurd threats like Ch-Yu, Chien-Pao, Shed Tail, etc, not to mention the great tera debate. after the dust had settled people were just kinda used to gholdengo but imo it's been the #1 problem for the duration of the metagame (again, except for the short periods of time where some of the absurd threats were legal).

[@xendra333]

​@troykv96 I think the issue is that banning Gholdengo purely because of an ability is a pretty rare thing. But imo, I feel if a single mon with itself is fine but broken because of how good it's ability, (look at mega mawilein gen 6), it should probably go.

[@N12015]

​@@ohmnabar3104Also tbf, Gholdengo wasn't really an issue up until home, but then there we got actual hazard stacking pokemon like Hisuan Samurott.

[@ThePenisMan]

@@N12015 well it was a problem, there was also just more way worse problems like Annihilape and Chi Yu in OU back then so nobody really had time or reason to investigate it Now that OU has mostly stabilized before the next batch of Pokémon get released, people are finally realizing

[@reneeseance5367]

Gholdengo is so much more meta warping. I would love to at least see what an OU meta without Gholdengo would look like.

[@BlackHanzo]

Alola Ninetales everywhere

[@5imian622]

​@@BlackHanzothen you ban Ninetails as well, the hazard game has always been a core part of all metagames and Gholdengo completely warps the tier. Gen 9 OU is the worst managed tier since Gen 5, it's astounding how badly it feels this tier is organized.

[@FenShen-us9tv]

@5imian622 you're going to ban half the meta at this rate lol

[@5imian622]

@@FenShen-us9tv honestly I think half the mons currently banned could be unbanned if you banned Tera, which is the actual issue- the refusal to ban Tera is almost as egregious as Alderon's Proposal. I literally cannot imagine why it's stayed so long, it's an inherently uncompetitive mechanic and should have been shipped already

[@bev1371]

@@5imian622😂😂

[@blazie42069]

I think suspecting Ghold first is probably the answer though, because gliscor without ghold might be managable

[@The_Wawa]

@@austinfletchermusic sd gliscor trolled by dondozo unfortunately Gholdengo just enables hazard setting to be very nasty bc when you bring a spinner/fogger nowadays you need to account for its matchup to dengo

[@Musasensei1674]

​@@austinfletchermusicsd gliscor is never a issue and never was since gen 5 gholdengo+gliscor combo makes it annoying

[@BlackHanzo]

Very manageable tbh but then again Goodra kinda handles Gliscor easily Gholdengo can goob most teams with just choice scarf with hazards or no hazards

[@Freezermansaccountno]

@@Musasensei1674 lmao what? gliscor's sd set is one of the best, it was legitimately insane in gen6 as a wincon and somewhat same story in gen7.

[@im_happily_sadd3730]

@@The_WawaDondozo gets destroyed by knock off

[@viviblue7277]

Ghold is probably the bigger offender simply because of how uniquely powerful it is makes it decisive.

[@Guns-R-Us_]

yep, the next Spikes redistribution will only make this a problem again once yet another annoying mon gets to abuse the trophy snatching trophy's bullshit. Gliscor won't be the last casualty in this war if it falls before Ghold

[@enric0392]

I think a gliscor ban or suspect before Gholdengo is kinda crazy. Gold makes it so spikes don’t leave the field I rlly feel like Gliscor wouldn’t be nearly as oppressive without gholdango keeping hazards up all the time

[@ezzzzyyy]

tidy up

[@breloommaster12]

there are numerous games and replays where the Gliscor user does not have a Ghold user to block hazard removal and still doesn't give a damn since it just outlasts the hazard remover and resets all the Spikes anyway. Gliscor is simply a next level hazard setter; mons like Ting-Lu and even Deoxys-Defense do not compare.

[@Connor_Kirkpatrick]

@@breloommaster12 Without Gholdengo Gliscor gets swagged on by ice coverage moves

[@breloommaster12]

@@Connor_Kirkpatrick My dude, you have not seen Gliscor tank an Ice Spinner from Great Tusk, Toxic it, then Protect to be healthy enough to survive Close Combats from it later. If you don't OHKO Gliscor, you might as well have not 2HKOed it either. Btw, Tera Gliscor is even harder to OHKO since there's no 4x weakness to exploit.

[@Connor_Kirkpatrick]

@@breloommaster12 Agreed on the tera point, but my point was more than you can force Gliscor to swap against ice. He’s not staying in against baxcalibur or iron bundle

[@20oxide36]

Seeing those two gliscor staring at each other for 50 turns gives me gen5 vibes and I still find it hilarious lol

[@mikeleddyphoto]

I never thought about how great Toxic is for a Ground Type. Love your analyses!

[@Bismarck-S]

I have always loved Gliscors design, and when it got added in the DLC I immediately added it to my team, because I love how funny it is to win with poison heal, but I never thought it would get this viable.

[@Ken-ru6or]

What the fuck are you talking about? Poison heal + toxic orb has been meta since its inception

[@honeycrisp808]

You say that like Gliscor hasn't been viable for like a decade now

[@Bismarck-S]

@@honeycrisp808 yeah, but it hasn't been S-rank. The fact that it's ban worthy means it's going to Ubers, which is crazy for a "haha funny scorpion bat". I have recently been beating up people on Ubers with the Gliscor and Ghodengo core. I haven't played that much but I'm at like 1300 on the ladder. I could probably go higher but the toxic 12 year olds drive me insane.

[@iamfat6164]

​@@Bismarck-Soh wow gliscor is viable even in Ubers? That's new to me

[@Bismarck-S]

@@iamfat6164 I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic, but yes it is viable. I had some dude with a full legendary team resign against it. My team only consist of OU pokemon or lower, with BSTs of 600 or lower. This is my way to test if the Gliscor Gholdengo-core is Uber-worthy or not.

[@MrTwarner]

The best solution to this is for Game Freak to introduce one/a few more hazard removing moves that do physical damage and are not normal type. For example, it would be simple to introduce a low power water type move called "Wash Away" that does like 50 damage and removes hazards. Too bad the odds of Game Freak actually doing that are very low, since hazards aren't a problem in VGC or story gameplay.

[@walaceandrade4046]

Make it water and spike teams are just gonna start running water absorb mons 😂

[@BlackHanzo]

Water absorb clodsire stocks will jump through the roof

[@soleo2783]

​@@walaceandrade4046unless there is a Water absorb ghost, starmie can run both, so she doesnt get checked regardless

[@Pionterus]

​@@soleo2783 Jellicent stocks about to rise

[@20oxide36]

They should make a bug move one so it has no immunities (other than wonder guard obviously)

[@Yabai-Wa-Yo]

I have this mixed feeling, I'm both happy that my boy Gliscor is doing so good for all these generations, and seeing him being even more powerful now. But on the other hand I feel sad cause it might get banned from OU... It's a weird feeling-

[@breloommaster12]

Be happy that your boy got buffed to be considered overpowered; nearly every other mon rarely ever receives this luxury and are lucky to not be worse than before.

[@Mijzelffan]

Gliscor is the IoA Clefable of gen 9, whether it'll be banned or not it will be back with the next dlc and will never be banned after that

[@YOSSARIAN313]

​@@Mijzelffanclefable is a lot more balanced than gliscor

[@hessiankyojin]

@@MijzelffanWhat is IoA?

[@Mijzelffan]

@@hessiankyojin Isle of Armor, the first dlc for sword and shield that added pokemon like Urshifu, Blissey and Volcarona (back) into the game

[@Soupdude338]

Almost feels like the amount of banned pokemon is getting to the point where they could be at the core of their own new tier list instead of just being banned.

[@rylandnewby]

I wouldnt mind a new lowest tier. OU becomes a semi-ubers while UU is more like previous gens OU.

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

There is an unofficial tier called UUbers for pokemon that are in ubers below a certain usage threshold, and from what I saw a decent number of people are playing it.

[@Soupdude338]

@@rylandnewby really, I just wish they would rename some tiers. Why is NU the fourth tier and not lowest, when it's meant to be never used. Idk, euhg.

[@eyecontrol4900]

Blame gamefreak for all the overpowered pokemon. This is probably the worst powercreep we have ever seen, almost as bad as gen5

[@brimstoner982]

@@eyecontrol4900 gen 9 power creep is 100% worse than gen 5 power creep

[@nedalsoned9940]

when a gliscorcel says something so hazard clearance-phobic that you have to hit them with the air balloon iron treads with rapid spin, ice spinner, and earthquake stare

[@Jvgl_2000]

Interesting. We just witnessed Garganacl getting banned from UU (took way too long for that to happen, IMO, LOL) and now we're talking about a potential Gliscor ban?! Now that's something. Well, here are my thoughts on this. Honestly, IMO, Gholdengo should be banned instead of Gliscor. Hazards have always been a dominant part of the Gen 9 metagame, just with other options (Samurott-Hisui with Ceaseless Edge which sets-up Spikes; Glimmora with Toxic Debris which can set-up Toxic Spikes quite easily; Garganacl, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, Iron Threads and others get Stealth Rock; Ribombee with Sticky Web is also solid, etc.). Gliscor just happens to be the best Pokémon that synergizes well with Gholdengo. Being a Flying-type is amazing, because it gives you a valuable Ground immunity and a resistance to Fighting (IMO, the best offensive typing in the game), which allows you to deal with most Great Tusk variants (even Ice Spinner ones can lose to Tera Water, which is extremely common). It also has a natural type advantage vs. Kingambit (also a top Pokémon in the tier, who I don't think it's overpowered as people are saying, at least for now, but that's something for another day), without taking Terastalization into account, of course. Also, the Roaring Moon ban (which I agree with, honestly, that thing was a powerhouse and needed to go, LOL) will certainly help Gholdengo even more because it's one less thing that had the power and typing in order to deal with it (even though it could Terastalize away from its Dark weakness). Overall, while I do think Gliscor is a very solid Pokémon on its own merits (after all, it was one of the most consistent walls in previous generations, and it could even act as a sweeper with Swords Dance) and definitely deserving to be the best Pokémon in the tier, I think a huge part of that it's because of Gholdengo being so effective in the current metagame, devolved around hazards. Gholdengo was already one of the best Pokémon in the tier, but with Gliscor, it got to another level of good. I do understand that banning it would very much decrease the usage rate of hazards, since using moves like Defog/Rapid Spin would be a lot more reliable overall (as well as Court Change Cinderace, even though it loses to Gliscor), and would very likely lead to a completely different metagame, so I think a suspect test would make the most sense in order to ban it, instead of a quick ban. If Gliscor got banned instead, then people could just adapt and use different things (although not as effective as Gliscor, but still, there are plently of good hazard-setting Pokémon in the tier). I think even Aurora Veil, which was also mentioned, would be affected as well because you can Defog versus it, too. Anyways, here are my thoughts. I didn't imagine it'd be this long at first but there we go, haha. (also, thanks for being such a great content creator, Freezai. It's always fun to watch your videos and learn more and more about competitive Pokémon with you!)

[@goragarx]

I think the absence of Hidden Power (Ice) made Gliscor a lot better. Also, a lot of Pokemon that would naturally destroy it (Pao, Bundle, Bax...) have been banned. But, yeah, Gholdengo hazard control is so fucked up

[@socialistrepublicofvietnam1500]

I kinda forgot that this is Gliscor's first metagame appearance since Gen 7 (BDSP doesn't count)

[@LiveTwinReaction]

I've been out of the loop for a long time from showdown, haven't played this gen at all - but baxcalibur seriously got banned?? Looked like Haxorus v2 to me so that's surprising to read lol

[@s0me_dood]

​@@LiveTwinReaction baxcalibur has always been good but it had to compete with chien pao, when that got banned baxcalibur shot up in usage and then became broken with the dlc giving it scale shot + alolan ninetales (freezai has a video on baxcalibur's ban btw)

[@hands-ongaming7180]

Your fault for having great tusk yet not giving it a ground attack 😂😂😂

[@Juniper_Rose]

"Is it the Steel/Ghost that prevents almost all hazard removal with 133 sp atk? No. It is the Gen 4 Pokemon that it overpowered"

[@rylandnewby]

I dont play much other than randbats. Gliscor in that format is infuriating because you basically have to click knock off the turn it switches in, or have an ice move. If neither happens it will just out last you. I can imagine its presence really limits teambuilding in OU because you just have to be ready for it.

[@midnightemerald]

Not really, because in ou you can guarantee polemon on ypur team that can beat it, like water ogerpon

[@RollingBobbyJones]

​@@gnomefrompinkerton that goes for every thing in the game

[@raikaru0]

@@RollingBobbyJonesyou do not have to run a specific counter to most pokemon

[@midnightemerald]

@@gnomefrompinkerton there’s no problem in needing checks and counters, lots of pokemon do, like valiant and pult for instance. The problem is when pokemon demand checks and counters that make your team actively worse against the rest of the pokemon you might face. For example, ogerpon fire forced you to run covert cloak heatran or SPECIFICALLY dragonite, which were both exploitable because theyre only 2 pokemon, and anyone using ogerpon would have a plan to deal with them Gliscor demands you run one strong water/ice move. Water ogerpon, greninja, atales, etc all blank it before tera, and after tera it loses a majority of its resistances. Protect is hella exploitable by hazard setters and setup sweepers, and you can try to deal with the many pokemon that kill it, but there’s enough that you’re likely making your team weaker in the process.

[@The_Wawa]

@@midnightemerald waterpon doesnt even ohko if unboosted + tera dragon dunks on waterpon

[@barrylmcdonald4176]

i believe the lack of defog distribution has hurt the meta more than anything. banning gholdengo doesn’t change much if the defoggers are fringe options and spikers still have such an easy time getting them up.

[@N12015]

Corviknight

[@walaceandrade4046]

Deffogers are only fringe because of Gholdengo.

[@xendra333]

​@@walaceandrade4046 In a way, but if we had defoggers of the past, like let's say Moltres, Dengo would be easier to handle. Unfortunately, that isn't the case

[@uribevaldezargenis8862]

Wallace outside Corviknight nothing else that has defog is worth using, Hawlucha for example has defog and mold breaker so if Gholdengo were actually the issue a lot of teams would use Hawlucha but that simply doesn't work, the hazards issue is way more complex than just Gholdengo and baning it wouldn't fix anything

[@vey4339]

@@uribevaldezargenis8862this is beyond wrong.

[@sfrizzell52]

Gliscor stalemates in gen 5 was the entire reason ice fang became a standard move on it. Saw so many 200+ turn games where 2 gliscor were last and couldn’t kill each other until one struggled.

[@jurrasicore8682]

The ground flying type we deserve... Honestly the fact that so many strong ice types got banned earlier this gen has really opened up space for gliscor, it would not be able to do this if baxcalibur or Chien Pao were still around, though I guess goldengo are pretty good against those two... We really need an Ice type wall breaker that can take on Goldengo

[@AceTeaaa]

gholdengo gets ohko by crunch from chienpao

[@The_Wawa]

@@AceTeaaa which is ubers, and not OU

[@victorlinares4137]

​@@The_Wawaread the main comment

[@zoruasnivy]

Time to bring back Gliscor's friend Weavile

[@addvance6626]

I wonder if froslass could play a role, as it has super effective stab against both and synergizes with alolan ninetales, snow weather...but can it ohko goldengo?

[@ohmnabar3104]

definitely more of a showdown watcher than a player, so take my opinions with a grain of salt, but I was really surprised when gholdengo just disappeared from the radar at the beginning of the gen. it was pretty clear even then the destructive effect it had against hazard removal, almost completely shutting down balance. I hope gholdengo is looked at first and we can finally rid the metagame of the string cheese menace.

[@tobo7580]

Smogon players have a very, very strong hazard fetish. Anything that enables hazards in a world of heavy duty boots invalidating their existence is taken, even if it's as meta warping as Gholdengo.

[@owenblount7334]

Good as gold is a broken ass ability but the council members are gay and love hazard stacking stall

[@ohmnabar3104]

@@owenblount7334 bro gholdengo hazard stack is a hyper offense strategy stop tripping 🤣 plus gliscor, a defensive mon, is getting suspected now with gholdengo likely to follow but keep calling everything you don't like/understand "gay" I guess🤷‍♂

[@Steven-nq7fx]

Yesterday in Ranbats, I got Toxic-stalled with Gliscors. I literally cannot break it because they keep using substitute protect as my entire team slowly succumb to toxic. I swear it's the healing that's too much.

[@lolyakable]

Yeah idk why poison heal is not like leftovers 13% is crazy

[@legithuman5486]

if poison heal healed the same as leftovers it would be really weak

[@KillerOfWhales]

@@legithuman5486What?Healing on par with a standard item but with status immunity and a threat away from being tricked isn’t still excellent? Getting all that plus twice the healing is just ridiculous

[@jaipadv8282]

The salazzle predicament

[@kek13223]

Toxic stall is very toxic.

[@nathanieljones8043]

goldango is the landerous of the glue that keeps stuff together.

[@nathanieljones8043]

I won't edit it is very funny

[@johnnyp1986]

I liked when you started going through the Pokémon tiering list towards the end of the video! You should make more videos like that where you just go through and nitpick some Pokémon and give like little overviews and synergies they have with other listed Pokémon. I would love to see that 💙

[@alicecrawford1033]

I can't believe Gholdengo has gone unbanned for so long; it has, in my opinion, one of the least fun abilities to play against of all time. It has left me so completely uninterested in the gen 9 OU meta, which unfortunately is the setting for a lot of content creators, and so I've really just been watching a lot less Pokémon because of it. Thankfully, your content often explores other metas and/or deep dives into other specific topics and niches, so I do still get my fill.

[@purgigantevole]

As Blunder said, GF should give another ability to gholdengho so that we can ban good as gold

[@boop53]

Yeah if it had Clear Body or Light Metal or Frisk or some kinda mid hidden ability i’d love for it to stay in OU its such a good glue for balance

[@globalistgamer6418]

I think it would likely drop out of OU with a mid ability, but you could still use it so this would be a fine solution. Give it an ability that increases the amount of pokedollars opposing trainers drop, but it's an HA that you can never actually access during the main campaign, and has no competitive effect. Call it 'Dead Money'.

[@keeganator2000]

its kinda cool that gliscor is considered op and power creep happens every gen. kinda like how metagross or garchomp were good for so long even with all the new pokemon introduced

[@bm4604]

I think we loose the plot and tunnel vision too much when we blame all of the hazard stack meta on the presence gholdengo. The problem is instead larrgely caused by how they've absolutely gutted hazzard counterplay this gen. So many of the bulky pivots people used to akready use like landerous, moltres, rotom w, you even spicier picks like bulky defog hydragon or salemance. Corvinight being the only OU mon with defog is a crime. Because the ghold user knows corv has nothing it can touch you with unlike say defog moltres with flamethrower, then gholdengo gets to switchbin for free every time and it exasperates the feeling of the problem. Its not just the loss of defog distribution we lost a lot of tool for counterplaying out of combat damage. Like WTF happen to mirrior coat? They just seemingly removed it from the whole gen for no reason. Teching magic coat into one of your teams used to be able to give you a fun way to counterplay hazzard leads but i guess that was too broken or something. Same with the surpringly weird removal of aromatherapy/heal bell, thanks to that the tm toxic click is incredibly strong at crippling balence. So many of the flaws this gen stem from pokemons move pools being either too strong or too gutted.

[@GeolennyHere]

I wouldn't necessarily call Gliscor overpowered, but it essentially forces the second most used Pokemon in the metagame to run Ice Spinner, making its options more limited So not overpowered in a sense, it's just VERY annoying to deal with

[@breloommaster12]

it's overpowered in the sense that it's simply _too good_ at its job; a mon can be overpowered without slaughtering mons in a single attack. Deoxys-Defense was banned in previous Generations for being a hazard setter that is too difficult to stop, and gen 9 Gliscor honestly puts Deo-D to shame in regards to its sheer effectiveness.

[@niki75]

Even if Great Tusk runs Ice Spinner you see it coming a mile away and can either just Protect or switch out because what else is the GT gonna do? You cant status Gliscor 'cause it's got Poison Heal, you try hitting it with Ice Spinner it's gonna Protect. And unless you run Choice Band on the Tusk it's Ice Spinner is not gonna OHKO. Hell even Banded Ice Spinner is basically a coin toss wether it OHKO's a ,max Def +Def natured Gliscor.

[@Mepphy99]

Tusk would run ice spinner to not get fucked by Lando-T and Zapdos anyway

[@giraffetownfan8810]

Gliscor has been my favorite pokémon since i first used it with poison heal and toxic orb, of course, i ran it somewhat offensively with an acro and fling set, but it was always cool to me

[@davidunderwood1773]

My solution to the GholdScor core was using Roaring Moon+ Ninetails Alola. Still thinking about what team building approach I want to use next. I honestly don’t know what to do

[@NovaBlue242]

Also, Freezai, I haven't watched your videos in a while, but wow. I immediately notice how much better your commentary is. You sound more confident, your voice flows so much more naturally and casually, more comfortable. Very noticeable difference compared to your old videos. You've improved a lot!

[@lillithplays6514]

I know this wouldn't solve the problem, but I would like to point out that Aromatherapy was dexited, Heal Bell is restricted to two evolution lines, and Rest was nerfed to 8 PP.

[@globalistgamer6418]

Rest also gets harder to use with powercreep. In older gens OU, you could use Sleep Talk to unreliably buff defenses while waiting out the timer, or often even just stay in and wait out the turns. With the higher attack stats and BP of modern gens (9 especially) it's almost certain that the opposing team will have a way to KO any resting mon before it can wake up.

[@NBDbingo5]

gliscor mirror being a pp stall gives a lot of credence to the side of banning it

[@josidfin]

In my opinion, both Gliscor and Gholdengo are broken. Gholdengo is a pain for the reasons greatly described in the video. Stronghold on the hazard metagame while also being an exceptional breaker with NP or even trick. Gliscor is trouble with Ghold and Spikes for sure, but it’s arguably equally problematic with SD sets, Knock+Toxic forcing progress, and being the perfect slow pivot to fragile breakers. I’m hoping to be able to suspect both and let the people decide!

[@Dave-kh2dj]

One of the neatest things about Gliscor is how it takes knock off after orb has kicked in!

[@cynamothcyclopsyt]

Hilariously, eviolite gligar is a good hazard setting lead in UNDERUSED of all places, the tspike buff was great

[@fadeleaf845]

I see some niche picks that would be able to beat Gliscor really well (Galarian Weezing w/ Air Balloon, Breloom) but not only does Gliscor has a few tech options to run over spikes to deal with counters, these niche counters are hard stopped by Gholdengo. And yes, the bans on Baxcalibur, Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle have been really beneficial for Gliscor.

[@jacksonhoiland2664]

Why not levitate on G weezing?

[@SpectreAce]

@@jacksonhoiland2664Because when it runs Levitate it can’t Defog on Ghold, unlike Neutralizing Gas can.

[@jacksonhoiland2664]

@@SpectreAce ah, okay. Thanks for the info.

[@ChibiRuah]

I don’t play competitively but like half the time there is a talk about how messed up the meta is Gholdengo is like top two Pokémon brought up even when it’s about how another pokemon is over powered. I would like a suspect test for Gholdengo, as I’m not sure it’s holding something worse off but it always sounds like a problem when a lot of discourse is “you can do x because Gholdengo is in the meta”

[@creeperman1295]

Minor note but I partly think the point about Toxic on a ground type not being special (in older generations is interesting). The difference in Gen 9 is that so many mons lost Toxic that having the move itself gives it even more utility, which then makes the aspect special. I.e Landorus-Therian with Toxic just doesn’t exist now and got rid of Gliscor’s competition in that area. Hopefully that makes sense lol

[@Rindfleischbub99]

Dude congrats on the sponsorship!

[@LunickTMM]

Gholdengo is the real problem here. We've already seen this with shed tail and last respects. Sure, you can ban the Pokemon who has the move, but the very moment another Pokemon comes out with that move, they have to go too. Gholdengo is simply going to wait for another impossible to break hazards setter and we're going to be back to square 1.

[@SquidSystem]

The issue is that there isn't an unbreakable hazard setter that's anywhere near close to Gliscor's longetivity. No setter can do it like Gliscor can and Gholdengo was really really really good before sure, but when it doesn't have itself covered by a wall that covers every single one of Gholdengo's weaknesses, it turns two really good pokemon into an overcentralizing duo. The fact Gholdengo was never once considered for a ban before Gliscor tells us that Gliscor is the more problematic mon

[@silverdawg_420gaming8]

I've thought of using Mold Breaker + Defog, but I find it difficult to build a team around it. Would love to see if someone can pull it off though

[@N12015]

Is Hawlucha the best one... not really worth using.

[@senny-]

Hawlucha's been at the game since Day 1. It never really took off.

[@symanthacantre5444]

I love this gliscor is one of my favorite Pokémon of all time so happy to see my boy thrive in gen 9

[@triskoto]

Love the vids. If theres a way to get rid of the empty space i would love even more

[@pikazilla6405]

Gholdengo wouldn’t be nearly so problematic if everything and their mother didn’t lose defog, I can think of so many defogers In previous gens that absolutely laugh at and destroy gholdengo but the only mon in gen 9 with defog in ou is corviknight which is so passive it’s helpless against gholdengo, most teams are fully aware that an entire game could go by without a single defog being used so they use strategies previously totally shut down by defog like screens and sticky web and i don’t think this is a problem that can be fixed with bans, gen 9 fundamentally has a complete drought of options when it comes to effective and reliable removal of field conditions

[@sergiotorresperalto7900]

... Good as gold blocks defog entirely, gholdengo is basically the only Mon to block any Hazard removal by simply existing

[@pikazilla6405]

⁠@@sergiotorresperalto7900I’m aware, tell me how fun of a time gholdengo would have if landerous therian and volcanion or rotom heat still had defog, that’s what I’m getting at, gholdengo wouldn’t want to switch in to block defog at all from fear of getting absolutely demolished

[@sergiotorresperalto7900]

@@pikazilla6405 true

[@dirkauditore8413]

The dex cut is a big reason why there are so few answers to Gliscor. That's why I like Nat Dex OU more, way more pokemon and way more answers to handle Gliscor.

[@princemannic]

Love to see gliscor thriving even if I dont play comp at all

[@KonkyDonk]

Ban gholdengo first. Singlehandedly controls the hazard metagame. Makes it to where teams need both hazard removal and a way to kill gholdengo (which is why great tusk is used so much) but even then great tusk has such low special defense that it cant handle it unless it catches gholdengo on thw switch in

[@double2254]

- torcoal is ou - garchomp is UU - Ttar is ru - gliscor is top 1 of ou This generation is not real I refuse to believe that this is the true timeline

[@darthhydreigon820]

garchomp is pretty good in OU esp after RM and baxcalibur ban it will rise back up

[@techknight3753]

MG Clef with Ice Beam is a hugely slept on Gliscor answer imo

[@Slenderquil]

I'm really happy that Gliscor is getting the respect he deserves. Very powerful wall, especially with tera

[@morganbush7775]

SCOR SCOR SCOR

[@reig_mago]

Currently I'm running with weavile and alolan ninetales in OU, so Gliscor isn't giving me a lot of trouble. Even before I started using those pokemon, I had used gliscor with ice fang and tera Ice Ice Spinner Great Tusk to deal with other gliscors . In my opinion Gliscor isn't broken, but people are still adapting to the meta.

[@martinketchum]

because you are running a specific teams full of his counters lmao

[@MrFrog-ds2gd]

I wonder having two strong Ice types that both outspeeds and a Great Tusk does to Gliscor

[@Mepphy99]

try running a waterPon Only and adapt to It see how Gliscor becomes harder (not impossible) to figh

[@HeadHunter417]

Think it's just better to look at Terra type In general and assess whether or not it's worth keeping.

[@Cruzer108]

I remember when gliscor was thought to suck with no roost and stuff but here it is dominating

[@timo.646]

Tera is just op, The rest is beyond

[@ShiningJudgment666]

It's starting to seem more and more like Tera is the real issue that needs to be addressed.

[@FenShen-us9tv]

Then you're neutering this gen's core mechanic. You'd get another gen 8. Making Tera open sheet would be a better solution like in vgc

[@IndigoEuphonium]

Gliscor really is old-new Landorus. An annoyingly good Ground/Flying type that is great in the meta, but I don't think is QUITE obviously ban worthy. Hopefully it gets a check soon

[@chillidewd5582]

While I dont actually play SV OU, I do play a metagame on pokemon showdown called national dex. In that tier, hazard stacking was also becoming a bit too centralizing, and because of that, we very recently banned Gholdengo. And after the Gholdengo ban, it feels like there is a much more larger amount of freedom in the teambuilder. Mons like Corviknight and Blissey, who were rarely ever seen are now doing pretty good for example. And being able to click Defog again feels great. And while Gliscor is pretty solid in this tier, it's not dominant. Sure the metagame still has some mons to still check, but Gholdengo's ban was a huge win overall for tier. So imo, i think banning Gholdengo in SV is the right move.

[@N12015]

But they won't take us seriously.

[@Hyperneosonic97]

@@N12015 The issue is, NatDex is not a wholly solid indicator of OU viability. Multiple ways of checking Gliscor, like Hidden Power, exist in NatDex, but do not exist in SV.

[@theflashfan3234]

The only reason I've been able to beat Gliscor-Gholdengo is because I'm trash and stuck in 1000-1200 purgatory where everyone is misplaying constantly and doesn't know their team's strengths and synergy. This one time I ended up whittling someone down to their Gliscor and they did the spikes thing and EQ + Toxic killed everyone except my Corviknight and I had to win by PP stall. Very annoying. Although personally, I do think the root of the issue is just how strong Gholdengo is. No hazard control works + you can never really try and predict the switch because of air balloon, and if that ends up not being the case, there's a different problem with scarf trick. I think Gholdengo needs to go first. It's the ugliest pokemon of all time, so it won't get a fond farewell either.

[@Longshot-qv8is]

Goldie just needs to go. It's ability is just too good on a Steel/Ghost. Especially if you take into account recover, t-wave, nasty plot, etc.

[@fatyoshi696]

I stopped playing gen 9 a while ago, and watching from the sidelines as the council desperately tries to make a balanced metagame out of the mess that is gen 9 by banning absolutely everything is pretty funny

[@santiagoacosta3372]

I still remember when this boy was uu on gen 7. They have come a long way

[@7raziel7]

Everyone and their mother: the problem is gholdengo Council: yeah the issue is actually gliscor guys trust

[@idkputsomerandomname9657]

Cinderace is A-tier. What does it actually offer besides court change? I don't ever see it using SD, I don't even see CB as often. (It's ranked this high because it's the only "reliable" hazard control. This is a sign that Gholdengo is OP)

[@The_Wawa]

1. decent speed tier putting it above stuff like iron val, wake, ninetales-A, etc 2. fastest wisp user in the OU meta bar pult, and also good mu into stuff like gambit 3. threathens dengo with its stab + court change is as you said currently the most reliable hazard control I agree, fuck dengo

[@Raymanlegacy]

Honestly yeah Gholdengo is too op

[@idkputsomerandomname9657]

@@The_Wawa Thanks for the answer. I see that it has a niche but definitely think it would drop to UU if Gholdengo ever got banned.

[@loopygordo]

​@Not_Too_Valid the only reason I run ace is because ghold

[@williamebf444]

I usually rely on my Magnezone 1-shotting Gliscor/Great Tusk with Steel Beam, if I read the enemy correct

[@EvanBear]

Gliscor toxic orb poison heal is so annoying to deal with in FFA (my main playground) but it balances itself out in that meta because usually people will target the "OP" pokémon.

[@gamebreakergeebz5094]

I think banning Gholdengo is probably the way to go about this. It's been the meta for a really long time and I think Gliscor won't be nearly as overbearing as it is right now without Gholdengo. I'm not saying it's gonna fall off, Gliscor is still an insane pokemon, but without Gholdengo I imagine the metagame will be a lot healthier

[@sealeo5772]

I think banning Gholdengo is definitely the best option. Spike stacking was strong from day 1, was problematic ever since h-sammurot was released and now it's better than ever. Blocking defog is the most talked-about OP aspect, but it'shonestly not even that big of a deal since there is only one viable pokemon that learns defog anyways. But what banning ghold will do is make the next best spinblocker much worse. Dragapult, ceruledge and other ghosts like Zoroark just can't be splashed on a team nearly as easily as Gholdengo, and they can be beaten much easier by great tusk. I remember in the early days I said on the forums that Gholdengo didn't seem overpowered at that point, but if hazard stack ever became problematic it would be a good idea. And I think we have reached that point.

[@LikeAbox32]

gholdengo probably warps the meta around itself more, but at the same time, OU meta right now feels like hyper offense or hard stall, with balance teams generally being unfavorable. gliscor fits perfectly into both styles and is really annoying to play against in both. i’d suggest suspect testing both

[@noodlearms9385]

Personally I think gholdengo is the bigger offender because of how difficult its making hazards in the meta. Gholdengo is incredibly good at keeping hazards up by just its presence, and the pokemon often tasked to get rid of hazards often either can't deal with gholdengo or can't fend off the teammates its keeping hazards up for. There's so much that has to go to meniuvering around both gholdengo and the hazard setters, its presence in the tier is really being felt and gliscor would probably be more manageable if hazard removal wasn't as much of a chore as it is when gholdengo is around.

[@aname4390]

How good is poison heal breloom against gliscor? It seems fine against the gliscor sets mentioned in the video. The thing is, it still can't do anything against gohldengo.

[@WellToastedBagel]

I think Gliscors usage is a response to the lack of Lando-T. It has a lot of the same utility that Landorus has had up until gen 9, and functions similarly enough thanks to how great of an ability Poison Heal is. I feel like Lando-T could be just as dependable as it was if it weren't for the major moveset nerfs it received. Thanks to the incredibly high speed creep this gen, the only set that has clearly lost its niche is Choice scarf. Otherwise, Lando's standard utility set clearly still would have had solid usage thanks to it having much more immediate power than every other ground type in the tier. Double dance, or even just Agility during this sticky webs offensive meta game could have been fantastic. Thanks to the lack of viable/common choice scarf users, there really isn't any pokemon that could get the jump on a +2 speed Lando. The worst case scenario for it would be forcing a Kingambit to use Tera and cut its clean up short. Paired with the right team though, consistently forcing your opponent to use Tera before you do is valuable nonetheless. I guess all I am trying to emphasize is that Lando-T's influence, and the lack of it in this gen clearly left an open invitation for similar mons to rise. It just so happens that Gliscor not only maintained most of its utility move pool, a move pool that is equally as incredible as Lando-T's. It also got buffed with spikes/toxic spikes. In tandem with Toxic+ground coverage beating every rapid spinner, Gholdengo blocking every viable/long term defog Mon that isn't Mandibuzz, as well as Gliscor being annoying to remove if played well thanks to Poison Heal. There really isn't a consistent way of removing hazards while remaining in an advantageous position, you are always going to get punished no matter the situation. Go to Tusk, and it gets hit by Toxic. Switch to something else, and well played hazards may just put you on a timer anyways. Though this is polarizing, I do hope we don't do anything drastic until DLC 2 drops. Gholdengo isn't even inherently busted, it could have been balanced if Zapdos or even Lando still had Defog. Since heat wave wards it off outside of a gimmicky AV Ghold, and Lando could use Crunch or U-turn if you want to remain ahead of a Balloon Gholdengo. Though Gholdengo wouldn't be ruined by them still having Defog. Since Defog is run on defensive variants of Zap/Lando, and Gholdengo clearly has the power to 2 hit both mons. But honestly, I could see offensive Zap/Lando running Defog. Since both are faster than Ghold and can 2 hit KO Balloon Gholdengo. Though these would be positive additions to the meta, it is wrong of me to try and claim that the meta would be changed at all if these Pokemon did gain back/still have Defog.

[@RollingBobbyJones]

5:13 I know im mid ladder but for this problem i use tera poison great tusk with bulk up. Getting that chance to bulk up, gliscors earthquake does not do enough damage and its an easy set up if it doesnt switch out. Sadly this will use tera

[@Mepphy99]

you also resist Valiant but than Heatran (yes he still exist) really appreciates that

[@hana1227]

the way I prefer to use gliscor is as a sweeper with toxic orb + facade (and u-turn in case things get dicey), so I don't see why that's a problem

[@joeykelly5642]

I used to play competitive back in Gen 4. Maybe it’s just because the meta I experienced was so entry hazard-centric, but it sounds like Gholdengo is a much bigger issue here. The idea of a spinblocker that ignores Defog (which was changed specifically to nerf entry hazards) is crazy! Not having that on your team would be an immediate disadvantage.

[@Teleman2112]

One idea I was thinking about was Crobat. It could be fairly useful as the current Gliscor moveset can't touch it, and Crobat also has Infiltrator for Substitute. Then I realized that it is not legal in Ou...

[@essentures]

I think maybe it would be a galarian weezing situation, it does a somewhat good job against gliscor/ghoul core, but doesnt fit well in the meta

[@leoshi8453]

@@essenturesyou basically described why banning ghold before gluescor is a bad idea

[@mimic_ssb]

Excited to find out why ground-type Blissey (healing, toxic) is so hard for Gen9 OU to deal with xD

[@boop53]

>baxcalibur is banned >4x weak to ice pokemon gets S tier in viability >another pokemon can freely tera fly now

[@B3AST46]

I was in one of these Gliscor v Gliscor situations and homie set up spikes while I swords/facade him into the shadow realm. And Gold didn't like him an EQ

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

I feel that the main issue is that yes, gliscor is undeniably powerful, but it is feasible to beat if you play well. I believe that this is the main reason why so many Pokémon considered broken haven't left OU yet, even if they are significantly more centralizing than roaring moon was (probably the least necessary ban imo, it was, unlike most setup sweepers, easy to beat with smart play and really not game defining in my experience with it)

[@redwings13400]

I’d be curious to see an ou without gholdengo. I only played ou early on in the meta, but I remember it felt pretty oppressive there, really limiting the options for hazard removal to basically only great tusk. Without it, I could see a much bigger variety of Defog and rapid spin users back in to the meta, which would probably be pretty healthy. I haven’t played ou in a while though, so I could be wrong.

[@bluemaku4456]

I love that my Favorit pokemon line gets the love it deserves

[@marko4935]

KEEP UP THE VIDEOS BRO I LOVE YOU

[@zenqmeister]

best way to deal with gliscor is Pecha Berry Trick Gholdego and I refuse to believe otherwise

[@AlfaElQuinto]

Orthworm could be a check. Immune to toxic, quakes, and can phase to oblivion with dragon tail and rocks

[@Mepphy99]

but the you have to play a shitmon for other matchups

[@matguimond92]

@@Mepphy99 nah not really. mono steel immune to ground is good defense

[@k8rgrl]

I found a fun gliscor lure, tera ice breloom

[@reggislowgas993]

That's my goat being op. So proud of him

[@derekwilliams7144]

I stopped playing competitive in Gen 5, and it's nice to see Gliscor is still standing strong. He's so cool. Gholdengo's obscene defensive typing seems like the issue.

[@AdalHRivera]

It's very interesting because even tho it's a strong type combo, the real issue is its combination with such a broken ability. We've had an OP Steel Ghost Pokémon before, but not one as broken in such a way as this.

[@psionx1]

haunter seems like a good counter to Gliscore since it's a strong special attacker that's immune to both toxic and earthquake. give it an eviolite so it can tank some hits, use disable to deal with protect and punish gliscore with a hex when the toxic orb kicks in. gholdango's "make it rain" is pretty scary but haunter has a speed advantage so you should have a chance to do some nice damage with shadow ball or take it down with you using destiny bond.

[@yepcasapapis7981]

Knock off gliscor

[@InternetBuyz1]

Still shocked gholdengo never been banned, it was able to warp the entire metagame and make it revolve around hazard stacking.

[@1BlueYoshi]

I think Poison Heal should only heal as much as Leftovers. It would still be a good ability because it means you are immune to other status and you can still get the passive healing after getting Knocked Off. the fact that it heals twice as much as Leftovers just pushes it over the edge

[@CodeMilkMan]

I always found that a good Choice Banded Rillaboom Wood Hammer solves most of my problems

[@boop53]

Rillaboom is such a boss atm, i love them

[@kek13223]

Gliscor vs Gliscor is the modern Metapod vs Metapod

[@murphyc15]

I've had luck with Piloswine, but I don't play singles often so it's a small sample size.

[@fandomsrsin7371]

Me and some friends have talked about this and think that possibly banning spikes could help

[@jamesmkay]

Orthworm. Steel type to not get poison, absorbs ground type moves. Or a levitate Pokémon with steel Tera

[@deadlypandaghost]

Bring back the strong offensive threats. Lots of those were banned prior to Home. Several banned pokemon can at least punch holes in those two.

[@aereon_gaming]

They were WAY too ban happy this gen. They've been trying to balance around previous gens OU rather than balancing around the single largest power spike in the franchise across the board. UUbers is what OU should be, and OU should be UU.

[@spand9043]

Horrendous take. Why don't you all log off showdown and just play rock paper scissors if you agree with unbanning filth like espathra, chiyu, bundle and flutter mane.

[@aereon_gaming]

@@spand9043 Horrendous take. Why don't you just adapt to the threats in the metagame like cartridge players do? Why are Smogon players so immensely entitled and think they know so much when none of them have even been to a regional, much less have any actual competitive experience? This is Gen 9, not Gen 8. There's been significant power creep. OU needs to evolve with the new definition of the new OU level rather than try to hold onto the previous gen's power level and ban 40 different non-box legendary pokemon and warp the format around problems that should not be problems in the first place. You're aware that most of these "problems" in OU are only problems because of previous "problems" getting banned, which were only problems because of previous "problems" getting banned, and the cycle repeating itself right? There will ALWAYS be a new "broken" that people are begging to ban. Where do the bans end? At what point have you deviated from Gen 9 so much that you've created an entirely different game? You've already banned around 2% of the entire pokedex of gen 9, at what point do you need to admit you messed up and got too ban happy and step back?

[@jurrasicore8682]

with the news that triple axel is coming back in indigo I feel like would make gliscor super managable. I hope they look into unbanning after the release

[@Forever-GM-Dusty]

I would love to see a more comprehensive suspect test that tests the meta without one and then without the other so we can see for ourselves what the meta would look like with them gone and see which of them is truly a problem