Why Are So Many SJW Characters Mary Sues?

[@Grymbaldknight]

"Reading a story with a Mary Sue is like skipping straight to the end of the book." DAMN. STRAIGHT.

[@TotallyNotAFox]

He said Jehova!

[@Astroryx]

More like having the end spoonfed to you

[@davidlafleche1142]

@@Astroryx What exactly is a "Mary Sue"?

[@benplus1503]

StRaIgHt?!1! sTrAiGhT?!!1! GaY pRiDe AaAaAaAaAaAa

[@Etzelsschizo]

@@davidlafleche1142 a perfect Protagonist without flaws. For example, Rey from SW: -She defeated Kylo Ren without any lightsabre training(and her experiencece with the staff doesn't count, Lightsabres and Staffs are two different things. -Has Force power like Yoda, is just extremly strong. ...

[@smort123]

Let's talk about Rey's more human counterpart: Wall-E.

[@lolifico_banzago]

He's referring to the other vid about Rey

[@nathanlawson5351]

But Wall-E is a ro... oooh

[@meghanachauhan9380]

@@nathanlawson5351 yep there you go

[@theSceptile01]

dont you ever dirty my boy wall-e ever again

[@keondramcintyre3444]

Wall-E has loads amount of character and personality than Rey, and he's a robot!😶

[@megaagentj2248]

BASICALLY: A main character experiences the plot The plot experiences a Mary sue

[@phoenixero8161]

ye

[@Yipper64]

hmmm frisk is a Mary-sue. your choices mean nothing. the player does near nothing (except get through the various enounters) dont get me wrong its some pretty good writing but really Frisk is a mary-sue.

[@danielwomer]

Excellent point!

[@krustykrabemployeepatricks3709]

Adam Eason Or Gary Stu depending on how you prefer it.

[@rainygamedays5873]

Wow. I like that

[@azekia]

Let's look at Captain Marvel: -Infinite power: Yes -Flawless: Yes -Everone who disagrees with her is wrong: Yes -Has any *real* trouble now or before: No The movie is just literally a SJ MS that flies at least 500× speed if light

[@ArariaKAgelessTraveller]

try read the comic of her it gets worse

[@naproupi]

Infinite power : no, she's beaten by one infinity stone Flawless : no, she's arrogant and prone to anger Everyone who disagree with her is wrong : no they were right she couldn't have defeated Thanos by herself Has any real trouble now or before : wasn't there to save the univers, fail to beat thanos, had to deal with entering the army in the 90s as a woman I dislike the character just as much as most viewers, but that isn't a reason to make up a fake point

[@danielniemeyer1987]

it depends on what captain marvel and comics or movies. carol Danvers went through a lot of trouble in the comics. she was power absorbed by rogue ending up in a coma for years. she spent anther few years a brain washed solder for the government s before getting her memories back. you have to consider she has been in comics for a long time.

[@frenchfriesfan2005]

@@danielniemeyer1987 I think you're talking about original Miss Marvel, not Captain Marvel

[@Moepowerplant]

@@naproupi beaten by one infinity stone.... and without that stone, then what? Can you relate with an OP sue that needed an *infinity stone* and *Thanos* to be defeated? arrogant and prone to anger.... SJWs probably don't see that as a flaw, like, at all. wasn't there to save the universe.... which highlights how everything supposedly depends on her. had to deal with entering the army as a woman.... this plays into SJW narrative. Surely being in the army is more than just gender. Be careful when claiming fakeness.

[@BreezyPotato]

Rey: Never used laser cannons before also Rey: shoots down 3 tie-fighters with one shot

[@SirBlackReeds]

She also kicks three Praetorian Guards by kicking just one of them, and there's no domino effect going on.

[@jeffwallace673]

When did that happen?

[@BreezyPotato]

@@jeffwallace673 in the Last Jedi at the end

[@jeffwallace673]

@@BreezyPotato to be fair I don't think I've ever seen anyone do poorly in that turret

[@jeffwallace673]

Also, those Tie fighters were all lined up in a row. I don't think that's anything that Rey did

[@ingridb.desousasilva8772]

I'm pretty forgiving of fanfic Mary Sues, they're usually amateurs writing for fun. But when it's someone professional, they're going to be criticized.

[@Kelly_C]

preach, man. fanfiction gives young, aspiring writers a creative playground. it's like writing on training wheels. it's fucking great.

[@Kelly_C]

@TookALevelInBadass depends what website you're on lol

[@Kelly_C]

@TookALevelInBadass ao3 or bust

[@Kelly_C]

@TookALevelInBadass "hard to find specific sort of stuff" huh, I think ao3's search function is pretty good (that, and I've read some stuff on there that's unironically better than most ya shit). speaking of which, does ffn have any search features? like, at all?

[@lamhotsimamora9189]

True story

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

I’d rather read a story about overcoming your flaws and getting stronger and becoming a better person, than one about a Mary Sue not experiencing growth

[@InfernosReaper]

The part where they effortlessly solve all the problems unless the author wants to have a self-indulgent "woe is me" scene that's Shatner's crew turning on him for the sake of forced drama in Star Trek 5 levels of trash.

[@0hvist]

Littlepip has one of the most accurate depictions of the pains of Drug Addiction and the struggles to overcome it in the horrors of the Equestrian Wasteland, Blackjack ends up having a brush with _suicide_ by Chapter 20 over failing to keep ponies that she meets alive that end up suffering and dying all around her, and Nyx goes through the wringer of who she is supposed to be from the perspective of being the storys' Protagonist *AND* Antagonist as the reincarnated Nightmare Moon. I find it hilarious and ironic when My Little Pony Fanfiction from 2011 can create better and more-compelling female characters than Hollywierd are creating nowadays.

[@Astroryx]

Congratulations. You have at least a normal I.Q. www.wattpad.com/story/179401625-rize-reaper www.wattpad.com/story/152734664-the-rise-of-the-king www.wattpad.com/story/182441332-midnight-sky Just three examples which are written on a site terminally known as “fanfiction”, which basically take all things SJW and brazenly say “fuck u, i’m going to improve the story no matter what ur agenda says”.

[@XRTerra]

Maiq, this is the time you haven't lied.

[@SilverGamingFI]

Maiq didn't lie? By Sithis, what has this world become? We need Alduin to eat this Kalpa and restart the time anew.

[@zichithefox4781]

The term social justice taints the meaning of actual justice.

[@Nikagor]

Like the term feminism taints gender equality.

[@Dragonage2ftw]

Does it?

[@zerothefaceless4888]

Social justice is like a guinea pig. Neither a pig nor from Guinea.

[@lance2580]

@Zero the Faceless But social justice is less cute than a guinea pig!

[@guillaumenoire7059]

Woah, that's so like, insightful bro. I bet you said so many smart things like that during gamergate

[@DerAnanasKing]

"Rey is the first powerful force sensitive female jedi in a main role" Ashoka tano: am I a joke to you?

[@beastwarsFTW]

Jedi Exile: No but Ray is a joke to me.

[@jayceallen6530]

Ashoka is one of my favorite Star Wars characters

[@danishsyed1068]

Mara Jade Skywalker: What the hell did you people do to my husband!

[@0hvist]

Bastila Shan: "Care to correct yourself?" Mara Jade: "Do I have to choke a Sleemo?" Jaina Solo: "Now hold on, Aunt Mara. Before we throw around phrases like 'OP' or 'Mary Sue': let my highly-inferior replacement explain herself."

[@cielmoon5007]

@@jayceallen6530 same

[@aguywithalotofopinions412]

Fun fact: Obi-Wan is actually on the weak side of the force users and is by far the Jedi master with the least connection to the force. The only reason he was in the council was because he spent hundreds of hours studying and practicing every day ever since becoming a padawan. Even with all these limitations he still managed to defeat Anakin, the chosen one.

[@DamnedPunk135]

No, it was the high ground. (This is a joke by the way)

[@kofola9145]

Yes! That is one of the overarching messages of Star Wars. It does not matter who you are. Your actions do. You can be the chosen one. But it is just a potential. It is up to you to utilize that potential. Which culminates in the Revenge of the Sith.

[@thezerowulf507]

A very real point about obi wan is that that he always beat Sith with his wit, he would goad them throughout the fight. Outside of maul the first time, which is where he learned to goad people from with how Quigon died.

[@punchyboi6915]

He really did have the highest ground

[@jokerson1316]

And Mace Windu, the second best fighter just under Yoda, called Obi Wan THE Master of Soresu. It was a part of why Obi was the one sent to kill Greivous.

[@merlinlemmerdeur7417]

It honestly made me angry to see how Marvel handled Black Widow. - She's been introduced pretty early in the MCU. - She's 100% human with no incredible power (just like Hawkeye). - Her combat abilities are the result of intense training. - She's a loyal ally and she became a good friend for most of the Avengers team. - She has troubles dealing with her past, and her relationship with Bruce gives her a way to heal from that. He accepts her for what she is, just like she accept him the same way. But *no* , let's make the first Marvel movie with a female main-character about Captain Marvel. *BRUH* EDIT : *Avengers Endgame Spoilers ahead* So this comment is 9 month old and I still see a lot of replies coming. *YES* , we needed this movie to introduce Captain Marvel, *YES* , we do have male characters that are complete Gary Stu, and *NO* , even if you think that this movie was bad (like me), it doesn't give you the right to harass the people that worked on it. What I was trying to say is that people at Marvel maybe did great on a marketing aspect to sell Captain Marvel as the first female MC Marvel movie, but in term of story-telling, it's clearly a miss. They had an already very fleshed out and humanized character that *FUCKING SACRIFICED HERSELF TO SAVE THE WHOLE MOTHERFUCKING UNIVERSE* , and it would've been really cool to see her personal story *before* killing her. That'd have ended her character arc on an even much deeper and dramatic note. Plus, selling it as the first Marvel movie with a female main character would've, in my opinion, shown respect to Black Widow and Scarlett Johansson for all those years of investment into the MCU. That is only my opinion. Have a good day.

[@jessiemai6432]

But the second movie with female lead is about Black Widow... I think people would love to see her again after Endgame. If they put the CM after endgame but she still appeared in endgame, it would be weird. I think they put CM in front because marvel have to introduce her before endgame, that's all.

[@merlinlemmerdeur7417]

@@jessiemai6432 Yes, of course they had to put Captain Marvel before Endgame, that's not the problem :o The problem comes from the fact that they had a perfect opportunity to make Black Widow more relevant before Endgame (idk if you saw it, so i'm not gonna spoil anything), and they didn't do it. But yes, of course it would've been weird to see Captain Marvel without introducing her at all.

[@moguldamongrel3054]

This is kinda a dumb argument. If logical backstory where supposed to be the criteria in regards to what doesnt constitute a mary sue, then black widow and hawkeye would die a horrific death, because their literally fighting supermans as humans. At least iron man has a suit. Because no matter how trained you are as a human, your not fighting nebulon unassisted...

[@dr.scarlet7586]

Last i checked, wasn't captain marvel a dude?

[@cherrypuddles]

@@dr.scarlet7586 Yeah in the comics (or something). What I don't get is why Captain Marvel happens to be the strongest MCU character. The Social Justice shouldn't just trivialize that she can survive being punched with the Power Stone. Peter Quill (half god at the time!) could only manage *holding* with the Guardians helping him. Just in case you didn't get the scope of it's the power of an Infinity Stone, Ronan touching the Power Stone on a planet immediately destroys it.

[@musicman6555]

Problem with "strong female characters" is that they're always either cookie cutter images of the same leather-clad badass, or they're underdeveloped because the story only has a female lead to be "progressive" even though there's nothing "progressive" about it.

[@seguaye]

What annoys me about the typical ‘strong female character’ is that it’s usually a woman that acts masculine. Masculine does not mean strong, and it excludes every other kind of personality

[@maqq]

the aspect of a male character being "strong" makes him a hero but when it comes to a female character she's automatically a mary sue. no one questions why the male character is strong cus that's what were suppose to assume to believe, but when a female character is supposedly strong everyone wants to analyze her and question the character, kinda sad.

[@skyisherelol3492]

Make them strong female CHARACTERS,not strong FEMALE characters.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

You don't need to make a "strong female character", that's the pitfall that these people fall into. Write a strong character, then just have it be female. Because that's not a personality trait, it has nothing to do with their character. That doesn't mean write a man, and just change pronouns, it means write a respectable character and then just have it be a woman.

[@s-h7015]

Dont Misunderstand exactly! Gender is one of the least important parts of a character, so it should be treated as such. Make it one of the last things assigned to the character- an afterthought, almost.

[@davidkane6145]

Sarah Connor Leia Organa Black Widow Wanda Maximoff Wonder Woman Alita Battle Angel Samus Aran Ellen Ripley Lara Croft Kyoko Sakura Katara Xena What do all these women have that makes them such good characters? It's called character development, something characters such as Rey and Captain Marvel lack.

[@dimspe1]

Don't forget Ellen Ripley.

[@davidkane6145]

@@dimspe1 Oh yes

[@sabbathjackal]

Samus got a lot of hate for having character development though

[@spacegay9309]

Your point is absolutely right, but some of these characters have no development

[@AlexReynard]

JUDY HOPPS. A single woman breaking into a male-dominated field and showing them all she can do anything the bigger guys can do. Ought to be a feminist champion, right? Nope! Because the story realistically points out that she is not immune to prejudice and fault. And worse than that, she commits the unforgivable sin of _apologizing._

[@theentirecircuss1617]

"While the normal Mary Sue plays out power fantasies like being smart." That was amazing. You just deliver an insult in such a smooth and casual way that it doesn't even feel like an insult until you actually think about what was said. Top quality.

[@TotallyNotAFox]

I think he means smart in a way like "This Tokamak reactor doesn't work, so I get in and fix it wthin an hour because I know exactly what to do on first sight" smart.

[@CrashD6]

Don't forget that he also said "Existing social skills" LOL

[@chaoticsilver8442]

@@TotallyNotAFox ever heard of a "double meaning"? I can't read LD's mind, but it could easily be that...

[@floraline2208]

Perfect characters are boring. I don’t hate them and I don’t love them. They’re just forgettable. And that’s even worse.

[@JaxMerrick]

It is what leads to the Eight Deadly Words of storytelling (which I used in SW Episode 7/8): I don't care what happens to these people.

[@emperor_of_vermin]

Yeah, cause if a protagonist is boring, (most) people stop reading

[@SodGrass]

have you ever seen the anime where a guy gets resurrected into another world with his smartphone it is so cancer GOD gives him all of the strongest abilitys off the start he had a crappy past life so he didn't sacrifice anything all the girls he meets instantly wanna have sex with him and he is boring with no depth he beats everything with ease and is flawless in every way it is honestly the worst anime i have ever seen. If you ever feel like dying on the inside check it out.

[@theseaweasel9861]

When he brought up Rey it took me like 10 seconds to remember who she was So you got a point there

[@lykus0094]

@books are definitely not overrated is not a hentai actually

[@brettmolka9431]

There is a reason that zuko is probably the most beloved character in avatar🤷‍♂️

[@Alex-rj9sg]

Actually I don’t Like his charachter but that’s just because I don’t Like the type of personality he has. Although I still have some respect for him.

[@liamfitzgerald7217]

Not throwing shade at Zuko but he's not the most loved imo. I'd say that goes to Iroh.

[@My_eyesburn]

Zuko, Iroh, and Azula where all badass. Iroh is my fav tho

[@valerial9081]

Because he has g r o w h t

[@MrMah-zf6jk]

@NS I I don't think Azula was killed. I haven't watched the show in a few years (but I'm rewatching it now that it's back on Netflix), so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Azula shoved into a mental asylum?

[@fortcastellan1730]

"The universe bends to obey the [Mary Sue]." This. This. A thousand times this. This is probably the purest definition of a Mary Sue, and the simplest distillation of why people hat Mary Sues....

[@DarkSymphony777]

Nah not a Mary sue. Black hole sue on the other hand!

[@ianmaluk1]

They really hats the Mary Sues.

[@alphega1983]

The current Doctor Who is a lot like that

[@Underworlder5]

@@ianmaluk1 maybe that is the solution to the problem. they need to wear hats. hats solve everything

[@ianmaluk1]

@@Underworlder5 Maybe fedoras would help? M'lady.

[@Niklas.K95]

Saitama in One Punch Man is thankfully not an example

[@MysteriousTomJenkins]

And he actually has relatable and human flaws and problems outside of being powerful, in fact, him being so powerful is his biggest issue. He wants to have awesome, fun, challenging fights, but he can't because he casually one shots everything. Being a hero, the thing he always wanted to be, is boring because he isn't challenged. His opness is actually a severe issue to him, rather than something that lets him get away with anything and he doesn't get away with things, he wins battles easily but he sucks at getting people to respect him, sucks at video games, sucks at making money and he's not very smart. Basically, the only good thing about him is his opness and that is actually the worst thing for him because he wants to be challenged in fights but can't. A Mary Sue would just always love winning and would never have an issue with their powers, Saitama does have issues with his powers.

[@nosehead5921]

MysteriousTomJenkins haha o pensi

[@nosehead5921]

sbit

[@ArtekGeneral]

@@MysteriousTomJenkins Even more so, he's so OP that nobody believes in it. Like that Fish King (or whatever his name was... Sea King?) "fight". All those heroes got almost anihilated trying to stop him, sacrificing themselves, and he just comes over and oneshots the guy. For a second people almost realized how powerful he really is and would start respecting him, but that would be at expense of all other heroes because then, in comparison, they were inferior and incompetent. The Hero Organization would not need anybody else but Saitama. What Saitama does? Pretends that he only got the kill because all other fighters weakened and wounded the Fish King, only strengthening the public opinion that's he just a hack who keeps kill-stealing all the real heroes. Which is one hell of a sacrifice, considering that he actually WANTS to be appreciated by the public for what he does. Frankly, i have no idea how Mary Sue would handle that situation.

[@MysteriousTomJenkins]

@@ArtekGeneral Would take the glory of the kill and the hero association would probably be remolded after them

[@osanieslana960]

The female lead in MIB International is another perfect example of this.

[@pfzht]

She's a strong independent valkyrie that don't need no man....yawn, right?

[@noless]

@Osani Eslana The movie sucks too and it bombed.

[@NetAndyCz]

But she did not know that steering wheels are on the other side of the car in UK:)

[@noless]

@nasolem That seems to be a thing in Hollywood right now but it doesn't seem to work very well for them. Oceans 8 flopped too and so did the all female Ghostbusters.

[@ReptarTheUgly]

noless I watched it, and it was average. Not worth paying for it but you definitely know who the villain is... too predictable.

[@sussy3778]

Do people that complained about Black Widow being vulnerable because of her infertility have any consideration to women that lost their wombs due to disease? Serious, even though it may not sounds like it, the effect is very similar, a feeling of emptiness, that something is missing...

[@crayonberry2123]

True facts

[@laynethebreadlord7373]

@Greg Elchert I mean it would just be wrong to fling around a lady who is pregnant

[@laynethebreadlord7373]

I recognize that picture

[@Mardanzo]

I think they complained more about the fact she called herself "a monster" and they assumed the movie was telling the audience that sterile people are freaks

[@sussy3778]

@@Mardanzo I don't think that but okay.

[@Hawkeye83627]

Whenever I write, I try to give my characters weaknesses of 3 different varieties, typically two of the three if not all three. 1. A weakness physically. This can be in the balance of physical attributes if not a straight up lacking of them. Strength over speed, speed over strength, some kind of illness or debilitating condition, heavy lack of strength but strength of mind, etc. 2. A weakness of emotion or personality. Paranoia, a short temper, untrusting, too trusting, prone to lying, prone to bottling emotions, prone to venting emotions, procrastination, etc. 3. An attachment. Something they will sacrifice for, lie for, do things that aren't right in order to protect or to keep. This can be a person, an item, or even a mindset. Wrote a fight scene, and the first thing in my head when I started writing was: the main character is going to lose this fight. He doesn't have the skills to win. He doesn't have the strength to win. He'll have to earn them after losing. You must NEVER give a character their power so flippantly. It ruins the journey. If you spend the entire story shitting on the antagonist, what was the point? All the rest is fluff if you make a character strong when they aren't ready for it.

[@sparkylongtail2705]

Well said! I agree 100%.

[@hereticalpaintjobs]

I whole heartedly agree mate, in a story I’m currently writing my main character has to decide between killing an old friend who turned traitor or hurting her enough that he can take her back home and try to change her mind Told this to a friend of mine who asked “why not just have him win the fight and she sees how wrong she was” I told him that despite all the things she had done (turned traitor and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents and military personal) my main character had trained and fought along side her for almost 30 years, their bond was to strong the main character was willing to risk an entire mission just to make sure she was alive. Something like this isn’t as simple as “oh you’re right I’m wrong help me”

[@g80gzt]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddddddd inb4 you make an amazing story

[@Hawkeye83627]

@@g80gzt That's the dream. It's coming along nicely so far.

[@cardboardbox191]

I've got a character (Macbeth) who could be describes as war damaged Juliet (the princess) is in love with romeo who's dads a rich merchant. He warned her to stop seeing him because otherwise macbeth and her dad would solve it and they couldn't do it delicately. She doesn't back down so with the kings permission he kills romeo and makes it look like an accident. The entire story would have probably been kinder to alot of characters if when she didn't back down he planned the assassination and told her the details rather than just thinking he at to kill without really thinking of alternatives.

[@fubaralakbar6800]

In other words, a Mary Sue is a character without the human traits and flaws that make a character interesting.

[@nicapp984]

Just being immortal doesn't make them a Mary Sue. But it depends on context. If a character is immortal, then you have stated to your audience that immortality is possible in your universe, and you need to stay consistent with that rule. Of course, if their "immortality" is just invulnerability via astral projection then it's a little different to true immortality even. The important thing is that they can't succeed at everything automatically. Unless they're some kind of god-like supporting character who sits out the main conflict for the most part, the audience will want to see them struggle and even fail. Consider the following questions: Can the broadcasted form be trapped somehow, or even severed from it's host? If they can still feel pain, would sufficient pain be able to incapacitate them? Can the fake form be mutilated or damaged in any way? If yes, would sufficient damage (disintegration, for example) render this form useless? If their form is incapacitated, can they simply manifest a new one? If they can, are there any drawbacks to doing so? Do they have any character flaws such as overconfidence, a short-temper, or attachment to a specific person or thing that can be manipulated? These are all potential weaknesses that can prevent them from being a Mary Sue. Also keep in mind it's not necessarily about how strong they are, it's about how challenged they are by the story, and whether they need to grow to overcome the obstacles they face. You could give them true invulnerability and make them completely impervious to all physical damage, but that doesn't mean they are a Mary Sue. What matters is whether having that power makes sense given the context of the story, and whether it's enough to solve all their problems and take the tension out of every fight. "Overpowered" is extremely relative. An OP character in one story wont necessarily be OP in another. It also matters whether they are inherently right and good in what they do. Good rule of thumb: Villains can be overpowered. It creates a greater challenge for the hero's to overcome. If the hero(s) get defeated easily in the beginning/middle, then it gives the audience a frame of reference to see how far they've come once they can go toe-to-toe with the villain later. Or maybe the hero(s) will never be able to fight the villain directly and need to find another way to stop them. Either way, you are *adding* tension. Heroes should not be able to defeat villains easily. Not the main villain at least. If they're an anti-hero or at least have personality flaws that need to be overcome, then it's fine to make them superpowered if the story focuses more on internal growth. (although external and internal growth are usually tied, as in Luke's training with Yoda.) I rambled a lot with this, but the point is that it doesn't really matter how strong they are as long as they still have to struggle in order to win and as long as they still have enough personality to be interesting and relatable to the audience. I hope this was helpful, Drago n.

[@ElPerpuli]

is worst than that, is a character, who will bring or get any solution easy, dont have to work or make any effort for it, dont have to stress it self because even the luck it gonna be with she, and I could say more, but my english is a litle limited, as you already saw

[@nicapp984]

I tend to rant when making comments. Glad you found it helpful, Drago n.

[@27Bayleefs]

For me a mary sue is just an all powerful character with little to no challenge facing them, but they can be good if written well. Alucard is a fantastic character with rich depth and character development. A character I absolutely hate is Rei from Star wars. She can do all this shit without training, defeated a trained jedi, and piloted the falcon better than Han solo >.>. Rei is not a deep character she is a typical poor girl rising to greatness with prodigal talent, I never feared for her, or felt she was facing dilemma, she was boring and bland.

[@vicquinn7611]

I don't she's a bad character

[@Cadrieldur]

If you’re trying to examine whether or not a character is too perfect, answer these questions: 1. Does the character have personality flaws? 2. Do they have in-universe weaknesses or limitations? 3. Do they struggle or get hurt occasionally? 4. Do they not win every fight? If the answer to all four is yes, then you have a good character.

[@doublem1354]

Question: What if the first three are true for the villain, but the last one isn't due to protagonists inflicting a tremendous loss which only sets back the villain (kids cartoon style).

[@mathisforgret7583]

Ok, my character is good then.

[@Lightfire398]

I think you can get away with only answering three of these questions with yes if it is handled properly. Ideally you should be able to answer all four yes, but characters can still be good if you answer one with no.

[@fredfry5100]

Well see that's the problem. Every author, even fanfic authors, think their characters have flaws and issues. Its just those flaws never quite seem to put them in a situation the character can't get out of on their own or with minimal assistance. Lets take Superman for example. Superman has three weaknesses: DC Kryptonite, magic, and red sun radiation. In Justice League Unlimited, superman was restrained by placing him in a room with a light that emitted that radiation. He had to be rescued by another teammate, and not in one of those Superman leads his own rescue. He was outright restrained the whole rescue. A Mary Sue isn't like that. While he might have such weaknesses, they will always quickly and efficiently find a way around any such weakness.

[@mathisforgret7583]

You do make a valid point, but I do see stories where the main character can overcome their issues on there own. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying it can be done if done correctly.

[@KittySnicker]

None of these pandering “strong female characters” actually empower me as a woman. My most empowering character is still Disney’s Mulan and she had to train A LOT! I also love Daenerys from GOT! (Though they ruined her in season 8). She had a ton of obstacles!!

[@Comicsluvr]

Danny is a perfect example. She WAS given things...but always at a high price. 'You're going to marry a handsome, powerful king...and be his sex toy.' 'Now you're free of the king...but his people will no longer follow you.' 'You're the queen of dragons...but you and your pathetic band have no food, water or transportation and have to walk across the desert.' Talk about STRUGGLE! Arya was the same. In the space of a few years, you're going to become the deadliest assassin ever. All it will cost is your childhood, most of your family, all of your friends and several thousand innocent people.

[@akairibbon4658]

lets hope new mulan isn't garbage

[@Comicsluvr]

@@akairibbon4658 The live-action version is the only one I've even considered watching because battle won't look real in a Disney flick. It's pointless to me to try to add drama and tension to a film brought to you by the same studio that brought us Mickey Mouse.

[@HungNguyen-fp5ir]

Well this aged like fine milk.

[@corn4618]

@@HungNguyen-fp5ir yup lmao

[@NimhShambler]

You know what the most backwards thing the SJWs have in their tiny little minds is? That girls can only have female characters for role models. Isn't that, in and of itself, sexist? It's limiting girls to female characters. When I was a little girl, Luke Skywalker was my role-model. Why? He didn't give up on Vader, even after Obi-wan and even Yoda had. He didn't kill him when he had the chance because it wouldn't have been right to kill a defenseless enemy. He was resolute in what he believed in, not turning--even while being tortured by Emperor Palpatine. Forgiveness, patience, mercy, kindness, resolve. These were his strengths and what I always aspired towards. I don't see why girls can't look up to men or women. The character is important, not the gender or race.

[@LiteratureDevil]

Exactly. Being a certain race or gender doesn't make one admirable. Having admirable qualities is what makes one worthy of admiration.

[@Dargonhuman]

That's precisely why the "Girl Power" angle of the Ghostbusters reboot failed to pull in female audiences; a lot of women, especially Ghostbusters fans, came out saying, "Why does Sony think I *need* female role models to look up to? Who are they to tell me what role models I should and shouldn't have? What's wrong with a girl looking up to a man as a role model, especially when the woman version is so much more terrible at everything the man did?"

[@Sol36900]

Same for me. ATLA was and is one of my favorite series. During the airing of the show I was going through some tough problems and I looked to it for escape, but in the end I received lessons from the great teamaker Iroh. I hated to admit it back then, but I was so much like Zuko, but seeing his character redeemed and hearing the wise words of Iroh I felt a 'villain' like me could change to. So, you're right. Limiting a girls role models based on gender is in itself sexiest, because if a boy said they only relate to their gender SJWs would be all over the poor homie.

[@wthrasherb]

Not to NPC/SJWs... All they care about is "representation." They don't care about logic, quality, history, or anyone/thing that disagrees with their opinion.

[@genghiskhan6809]

@@@Sol36900 At some point in our lives, we'll all need a bit of Uncle Iroh's advice.

[@velazquezarmouries]

Is a spanish speaking male mary sue a mario jose?

[@Durahan13]

Maria Suero

[@velazquezarmouries]

@@Durahan13 that is just a spanish speaking mary sue

[@Durahan13]

Mario Suero then.

[@mateo0123]

Mario Susano

[@magnofajo6159]

Maria susana

[@andrewpytko2938]

Anytime I insert myself into my fan fiction, I'm always like one of Stan Lee's cameos. Some nobody reacting to the shit he sees for a brief second. A lot of times this involves being at a bar.

[@lolmeme69_]

Most of my MCs are self inserts, they're usually pretty flawed. I'm a nut for continuity and universal rules, so I try to avoid Mary Sues whenever I can. I don't find writing about Mary Sues to be fun.

[@niknelson2464]

I typically write about military stuff, and if I decide to self-insert, it's basically as a transport pilot or something similar. Not taking to the front line, but can still be relevant at certain times. Could be the lead pilot with a squadron under his command, but not the central guy.

[@OroOfTheBoros]

Same

[@lolmeme69_]

A fellow military writer! Nice.

[@mutilator97]

You see, I'm fine with people doing self-inserts, as long as the character feels like someone who could actually exist in the world. You can make your self-insert an actual character, too. That's fine. Just don't make them the new God of the world they've entered. Hell, I'm actually writing a book currently that has myself as the main character. It's an interesting exercise, but it kind of feels like playing a D&D character in some ways(what with having to avoid meta knowledge).

[@spookiestking9353]

As a minority, making minority characters with no flaws sets unrealistic standards for the people actually part of the minority, and doesn't allow for a character the audience can attach to. Please, write all people like people and not cardboard cut-outs!!

[@LiteratureDevil]

As a fellow minority - this is why I find woke, SJW characters a horrific insult.

[@mcpainkiller5231]

Your a minority? If you mean a white woman then your not a minority.

[@spookiestking9353]

@@mcpainkiller5231 I'm.... not a white woman????

[@mcpainkiller5231]

@@spookiestking9353 Than what are you?

[@spookiestking9353]

@@mcpainkiller5231 A human being.What does it matter to you. You want to tell me what I've been through doesn't "qualify"?

[@droe2570]

Anakin was not a Mary Sue, he was a total failure. He was powerful, but he failed at almost everything. He was his biggest enemy. His arrogance, inability to let go of his fear and his desires, to let go of his attachments...he failed as a husband and as a Jedi. He failed as a son, because if his mother knew what had become of him, she would have been horrified instead of proud. Think back to SW1 when she sees him leaving home with Qui-Gon, she has that look of hope and joy and sorrow. She hopes he will grow to be that special great person she can be proud of, but is also sad because she will miss him. But instead, he turns into a mass murderer...of children, no less.

[@lukec2004]

Exactly, if he is a Mary Sue almost everyone is

[@dajoler]

I think they really had to show just how awesome Anakin was as a good guy because everyone knows how far he will eventually fall -- a crippled, broken, shadow of his former self, trapped in-between life and death in a mangled body. Anakin was a deconstruction of the Gary Stu because he himself bought into his own legend, at least at the very end; he genuinely believed he could have power over life and death itself and refused to seek help even from those he trusted like Obi-Wan.

[@st8lion]

@@dajoler he was also outclassed with a light saber or hand to hand by yoda, obi-wan, mace, and probably kit fisto. mace could of spanked him if he wasn't busy with arguably the strongest force user alive at the time.

[@lukec2004]

@@st8lion not necessarily, Mace uses a force ability that feeds off darkside powers, so he was unimaginably powerful when fighting the Senate, while Anakin wasn't trained in the dark side yet so Mace wouldn't have that advantage. The Sand hater and Mace were supposed to duel in Rots and Anakin would win

[@dm7626]

He was a tragic hero, and his hamartia was his arrogance. He had the potential to be great but his flaws ruined him.

[@jastindeep3366]

Normal character: fails at something, feels shame, have his own problems Mary Sue character: perfect at everything, just gets power out of nowhere, "chosen one", doesn't need training, universe *obeys* him(her)

[@Shiirow]

you can have a chosen one character without them being a mary sue. Anakin fucked up a lot, had his ass handed to him on a couple occasions, and he was a "chosen one" to bring balance to the force. a fundamental mary sue is without flaws and is essentially a deus ex machina made into a character. I feel like people dont understand what a true mary sue is.

[@sasukeuchiha998]

Remember when we still had strong female protagonists without being Mary Sue because of good writing? When the writing itself made us believe that women were equals because of the effort that goes into what they do? When being a badass meant being able to take up arms when your life is on the line to fight a threat outside your own understanding to protect yourself and those around you rather than an exercise of exerting your own dominance through violence and one liners? Remember when writers were able to make witty political stabs at inequality because they knew how to get around hamfisted writing?

[@swaghauler8334]

@@sasukeuchiha998 Yep. Princess Lea and Padmae from Star Wars, Ripley from Aliens, Linda Hamilton from Terminator I & II, and Adrienne Barbeau who played a major female badass in movies like Escape From New York and Swamp Thing. A STRONG female who could take care of herself can STILL BE A WOMAN!

[@mr.stud_ious8534]

and only her

[@artalcoolique3341]

*Kirito from sao starts sweating.*

[@fandude666]

In my story, My self insert is going to be the villain because I know if given that much power, I would be a tyrant.

[@henrygutierrez3243]

Same

[@chaospacemarine8330]

And even then, it would be appreciable with YOUR backstory, since your character's evolution is natural according to your story's setting.

[@matteste]

Sounds kinda like one I created years back. Though I didn't initially create him that way (he started as more your standard Gary Stu) he became that way as I grew older and matured.

[@Aethelhald]

If it ever happens that you get lots of power and become a tyrant, hit me up if you need a loyal right hand man. I'll do whatever needs to be done and can assure you the utmost loyalty. I won't go Darth Vader and betray you at the end or anything. All I require in return is a modest house (even a small house will suffice) in a nice low crime neighbourhood, fields nearby for my dogs to run on, a new gaming PC every 4-years (I'll buy my own games) and at least 600 grams of good quality white chocolate per week. You're not gonna get supreme loyalty any cheaper than that. My number is 0123456789.

[@josiah3820]

I agree. If given the power every bad person would be dead. In my head it would be cleansing the world but to the world... Its murder. Best inspiration INJUSTICE SUPERMAN. Wat he did I would do too.

[@Grimexx955]

Why can’t we just write female characters without focusing so much on the fact that she’s female? Does she have to be woke or on the back of a male character 24/7? Can’t she just be a damn character? It’s just, I feel like it’s fine women are becoming main characters more often than they were a few decades ago. But I feel like a lot of it is so fake; if there’s a female main character it’s the center of her character, and she’s “perfect”- but also very bland because of it. It’s just a little sexist that writers stop trying with female character just because they feel the female part is all they need to do. They just add her as the MC and expect people to like her. Things that make a character great like fatal flaws, character development, and how they deal with their life-changing journey is thrown out the window. Not to mention, this will also make it come off as if ALL female MCs are bad, even female MCs that are good. And it’s a shame, because there are well written ones- Katniss Everdeen for example. Women irl can be very admirable and heroic as well as be flawed. We aren’t going to remember these Mary-Sue female main characters, because they weren’t made as characters, and it’s very much a shame.

[@ashleythetrashley1726]

It feels like I've seen three types of women in the media. A few Mary Sues, Tough extra better than men chick that doesn't take any crap, and basic "I'm not like other girls, oops I'm so clumsy I dropped my book! Is my tea done yet?". There are other types. I want the characters to actually be enjoyable.

[@XantaliX]

And this is why I gotta love Studio Ghibli female leads, they're fucking well rounded and they all display different kinds of strengths in a diversity of shapes, going from a girly girl who still manages to knock out her kidnapper with a bottle while still being scared shitless (Sheeta from castle in the sky), heck, a 90-ish year old lady with self worth issues against a powerful witch (Howl's moving castle), a clumsy formerly-kind-of-lazy girl who sucks at chores having to infiltrate a hotel for spirits to save her family (Chihiro), and an entire full spectrum right up to the super feral, raised-by-the-wolves girl that has to learn to cool down her extreme B/W view of the world and learn to trust others outside her clan to restore balance (Princess mononoke). And I love that even if they all have an enormous inner strength, at least ONCE you can see each and every single one of them at some point of the movie FREAKING OUT about their situation, having doubts, wondering why the hell is shit happening to them or how the hell they'll get themselves out of a dead end or panicking at the possibility of losing something or someone precious.

[@starcrunch6497]

Well said, an example of a character who you described is Peggy Carter

[@Grimexx955]

@@ashleythetrashley1726 I mean, there’s also damsels in distress or women who are written to be centered around men too that are pretty common. I’m just saying that making them the opposite doesn’t work, not that there are only a couple of stock female characters that exist that all are way too pro-feminist. It’s just all of it is bc we treat women like a different species or fanservice and not as actual characters, which goes for both anti and pro feminism dkdjskdj

[@ashleythetrashley1726]

@@Grimexx955 Yeah

[@MitchC-vr8nw]

Ironic how perfect Rey ended up being as hated and forgotten as Jar Jar Binx

[@matthewpatrick7263]

Jar Jar is not forgotten, although I'm sure many people have bashed their own heads into walls while trying to forget him.

[@brocklievsay8262]

Meesa would take Jar Jar over Rey. At least Jar Jar is much more meme worthy than Rey.. Uh Oh!!

[@tedwink6652]

At least Jar Jar had some Flaws, unlike Rey, everyone from his hometown afraid of him, and he is incredebly dumb, and he is annoying for characters and most people, that's makes him much more better than Rey, because Every good guys in SW love Rey and she won her first sabre battle even without literally having any Skills of wielding Jedi Sword

[@Blue-Delta0117]

A yes a character more relatable and more human than Rey

[@Dragonage2ftw]

@TedwinK66 None of that is correct, laddie.

[@letsreadtextbook1687]

So far the best "girl can do it!" Character in movie is Zootopia's Judy, I think. I hope we'll get proper human character soo

[@danremixinc9485]

She failed many times before she got work of life

[@UtterBroadwayTrash]

@@mouthshovel I think you took it a tad too far. I agree I would like that kind of character in a human form, but calling them degenerate is a bit much.

[@drawingwithjay4488]

judy is a dope character

[@santanalopez4073]

The most human character is a furry (Judy) and its great :D

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

That movie was actually genius. It shows how even the "privileged 1%" can get discriminated against and face injustice because of baseless prejudice. That's why Twitter is starting to hate it, and even more today because it shows cops in a positive light.

[@acidic-deadaccount-2836]

It's perfectly fine for a character to bend minor rules with justified reasons. Like a character getting into university at 13 because they have an abnormally high IQ for their age. But to constantly change rules just so the character can do what they want is stupid. You want to see a character struggle. You want to see a character that isn't qualified for everything. You can have extremely strong or extremely intelligent characters, but it's good to remember that for everything your character is great at, have something they are terrible at. And don't bend the rules of a universe please, regardless of whether it's an OC or fan character.

[@LiteratureDevil]

Yup. It's not about a character being powerful or talented. It's how the author treats that character. If they're going to pull off an incredible feat (like doing in a few minutes like what trained professionals couldn't do in weeks like Mr. Crusher) it has to make sense. If he had been taught by Data earlier in the episode or was shown getting some kind of insight instead of pulling out a Deus Ex Machina kind of scenario from pretty much nowhere.

[@gandalftheantlion]

Sometimes the super character is a guilty pleasure for me, take one of my favorite animes the irregular at magic high. Yeah the guy is a total mary sue and everyone seems to love him with incredible abilities but there is just something about that series I love.

[@benjaminkemer6428]

My favorite example of a prodigy who still has failures is Sparrow hawk from Earthsea, he starts out as a prodigy of magic but he conjures up a monster which puts him in totally over his head, so in spite of him being so gifted, he still succumbed to arrogance and got burned for playing with fire, and the Shadow monster goes around killing numerous innocent people and even almost kills him at least twice, all because of Sparrow hawk's pride. Just being a high IQ prodigy didn't make him perfect. That's the genius of Ursula K. Leguinn, she made a character that in spite of being really intelligent, was still far from flawless and had issues with his own pride.

[@goddamnarshia]

Wait was that a jojo reference ?

[@peynnep6483]

can have them lack what's make a person weak, but also lack what makes a person strong?

[@AI-ch3if]

Q: why are so many SJW characters Mary Sues? A: As in real life, they want things they didn't earn.

[@igorbolotnikov975]

A I on point

[@Astroryx]

Factual

[@TheBreakingBenny]

Just like spoiled little children whose parents have too little backbone to say "No."

[@opqrrg]

A l and they don't seem to realize that making semi invincibile female characthers in movies won't help them in real life and the only thing they are doing in this way is just killing the cinema!!

[@andregon4366]

@@opqrrg And stroking their own ego.

[@userjames2009]

A Mary Sue is what happens when a narcissist describes their self-image (ego-image).

[@reyarturonegro5284]

SJW Mary sue is super narcissism-image

[@Zinnisteroo]

I think it can be wish fulfilment other than narcissism

[@TheFox517]

@Txtspeak Propably because you recognize that everybody has flaws.

[@BladeOfLight16]

"A Mary Sue is what happens when a narcissist describes their self-image (ego-image)." SJW writing a movie: -Narcissist ✔️ -Trying to describe ideal self✔️ I think we have a winner here.

[@TheFox517]

@Txtspeak I guess that could work too. The character I came up with (but can't actually use since my writing skills are as bad as they can get) are in our regular world, but they participate in war that has been going on for thousands of years. They also have to hide that war and their powers from most of the population so they're fucked in two ways at once. The main character's only good traits are moving at high speeds and good pain tolerance. She's garbage at everything else because she's based on me, lol.

[@kyleearp24]

One reason why Mary Sues are hated is that their origin stories are predictable and poorly written. Along with that they act as if they do what they do every day.

[@thomaslawn8241]

hey, how dare you criticise my avatar fanfic, she's only the second avatar born from the dark avatar who's mastered the four element, can activate the DARK avatar state at will, has super spirit strength, speed, endurance, regeneration, is also really hot, can also bend the secret totally real elements dark, light, energy and can also bend time. But don't worry, sometimes she's clumsy

[@Crowstrove]

Thomas Lawn da freak

[@Crowstrove]

No offense. I'm not calling you a freak, that's just one of my substitutes for the f word

[@arctic887]

*Accidentally destroys the whole world with her powers because of her clumsyness *Oops*

[@venor2612]

@@arctic887 lmfao

[@kugirea]

@@Crowstrove r/wooooooosh

[@AaronCMounts]

This is honestly a good assessment of the SJW infection and how it affects story writing. Though I loathe to mention "Sailor Moon", it showed its audience a supremely flawed female character who still was able to narrowly pull victory from the jaws of defeat. She struggled HARD to overcome both her own flaws and the villain.

[@Sorain1]

No kidding. The first season of Sailor Moon is a master class in 'this protagonist is not someone you want to have power' having to grow up and become both a leader and a better person in general. When the waste meets the rotary air impeller at the end, someone who annoyed the crap out of you at the start of the season is someone you actually believe will suck it up and pull through to win, and your glad they won, not just that someone beat the villain.

[@grantjohnson5785]

Most manga/anime female leads - at least those in serious stories, not campy comedy or pure fanservice - are flawed yet deeply compelling. Easy examples include Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura and Tsubasa, Moka Akashiya from RosaVam, Karin from Chibi Vampire, Kaname Chidori from Full Metal Panic... and naturally, ANY of Rumiko Takahashi's female leads! (Incidentally, I'm hoping that "Yashahime" doesn't get too feminism-focused, given its trio of female leads...)

[@dryfox11]

@@grantjohnson5785 Yeah, even though I watch next to no anime I’d say that their writers and stereotypes in general (usually) don’t have many mary sue esque charachters, because anime loves one thing: Action/drama In order to have those (that make any sense at least) they have to have compelling characters, which may be why they’re relatively untouched by SJW ideology

[@bjrnhalfhand2258]

Not only did Anakin need years of training he failed a lot. He failed to save his mother. He failed to control his anger when he killed the Tusken Raiders. He failed to control his pride and arrogance and got captured on Geonosis. He was defeated by Count Dooku. He turned to the darkside and murdered children etc etc

[@wk3820]

It makes me laugh when people call Anakin a Mary Sue. He became frickin Darth Vader, biggest villain in cinematic history! That makes him pretty much the most failed hero ever in film.

[@Sgt_Glory]

@L Lawliet I hadn't really noticed that actually, yeah. In 1 he's essentially being built up into this future messianic figure; in 2 he's basically struggling with this expectation of greatness, and in 3 real life slaps him brutally in the face.

[@johngoldfield6602]

@L Lawliet Another Marysue trait is that the story revolves around them, ep1 was barley about Anakin just how they came across Anakin and his potential but ep1 was a bunch of different perspectives so it wasn't about him, people didn't really pay attention to him and Anakin barley had any lines. sure he was strong potentially but he was still very weak and the only thing he ever did in the whole movie was blow up the command ship which was the start of him showing his potential. Rey is more of the Marysue in starwars. she starts off powerful when we first meet her, in ep7 as she meets each character they're super nice to her or interested in her without any reason to be, and we still don't get an answer as to why shes so powerful even more powerful than the chosen one himself.

[@williamstark9568]

Emperor: If I help you, will you kill some kids for me? Anakin: Will I!?

[@ShadowknightEX]

He was something of a Sue/Stu in episode 1. From episode 2 on he’s more relatable. He fails.... a lot. He has obvious anger control issues. The Jedi code is more of a suggestion to him (okay, only for marriage) and he holds strong attachments, which also is against the code. Not counting the clone wars series, his only win in a duel is against dooku, and he had to draw from the darkside to win, and had help from Obi Wan for most of the fight. Also he is supposed to be strong with the force but we don’t really see him use many force associated powers, aside from speed and strength enhancement. Really the only thing that can be considered Stuish is his piloting, and even that can be explained by the fact he was pod racing since before he was 10

[@toastymarket4089]

Without overthinking it, these characters are created by people that want all the power and none of the responsibility. That is why these characters are able to do everything but never suffer the consequences of their own actions. Also why they feel cheap, empty and false. The characters are a reflection of the persona of the people that create them.

[@iljaradenkovs7150]

@Steady Logic no not really yes the player is powerful in every game but you always have workeded for the power and in EVERY game your character has flaws. Except maybe storyless puzzle games or something. Go ahead name a game with a Mary sue protagonist. If your able to then sure fuck it il accept defeat but I doubt youl name one

[@noname-zp1yh]

Korra never talks about themes of responsibility. Nope not once, never happened.

[@iljaradenkovs7150]

@@noname-zp1yh she ain't a Mary sue but shit that show was hot garbage compared to the first

[@hostiusasinhostilityhostil7853]

@@iljaradenkovs7150 Kirby. Granted, it's more for the sake of game design than anything else (Kirbyism), but still. (But seriously, I don't know enough about the Kirby franchise to say Kirby here, so I don't know if he has any weaknesses or anything. I just know he's intentionally overpowered in every game he stars (lol pun) in. This comment is mostly in jest.)

[@dragonlord1935]

@@noname-zp1yh Korra's just not a well written character. At first, I thought she was a complete Mary Sue; but looking back at it, Korra did have to face the consequences of her actions (consequences which usually weren't proportional to the action but whatever). Despite that though, she's still a poor character because her development seems inconsistent throughout the series and because she doesn't really fill the shoes that Aang left behind. Aside from that there's the whole "Dark Avatar" Kaiju battle which did seem quite Mary Su-ish but that's more a fault of the entire plot than just Korra's character.

[@flycrack7686]

SJW: Black Panther is the first black superhero Blade: ... Btw: Steven Colbert even said that

[@randomuser2461]

Steven Colbert is an idiot.

[@evilbankai5166]

Blade was like Blade: *AM I A JOKE TO YOU NIGGA?*

[@NessaEllenesse]

I am willing to chalk that up to Hollywood ADD. It seems that Hollywood has it's own brand of Attention Deficit Disorder. Anything that is older than 10 years is irrelevant (unless they can drug it up to prove how racist, sexist and bigoted America is)

[@Nyrufa]

Blade, I Am Legend, Spawn, War Machine, Storm, Meteor Man...

[@flycrack7686]

@@Nyrufa please, dont confuse me with logic... my feelings

[@batmitesolos7097]

Feminists: I'll use the sexism to destroy the sexism

[@theunreadyone]

Feminazis is the term for people like this. Most feminists are actually okay people

[@zaho87]

@@theunreadyone If they were okay people, why are they trying to destroy culture, civilization and humanity as we know it? They don't want equality, they want power and the ability to annihilate those deemed undesirable or inferior, nothing else.

[@ogi1cool625]

@@zaho87 what they're trying to say is that the most loud and stupid people of that community give the community a bad reputation. It's like the cringy fanbase of a tv show, anime or a videogame

[@ryeowook_angel]

@@ogi1cool625 ty!

[@whatisupmyfellowamericans8808]

@@ogi1cool625 To be fair though, those supposed "rational" feminists have done and continue to do precious dick-diddly fuck to rein in the more insane and dogmatic among their members.

[@MrHandss]

because god forbid women ever be vulnerable or have flaws or not be loved by everyone around them.

[@cognitivedissonance8406]

MrHandss Support the death of humanity Do the right thing

[@humblewonder3260]

the uploader liked this, savage!

[@lizs606]

this guy gets it

[@amanaje4743]

@@cognitivedissonance8406 thats why we should legalize abortion and sterelazi humans

[@cognitivedissonance8406]

Naked Snakey Mandatory abortion

[@nymphia5767]

Now I know why I hate so many characters for no apparent reason. It’s cause they don’t have any flaws. They are always right and always the victim. Thank you for making me realize that.

[@leogiles4162]

Berzerk is the best anime with a protagonist with helllllla flaws

[@anonymus5637]

Thanks to this video i finnaly found what thing i hate from fire emblem fates: corrin, the protagonist (he/she is the biggest example of Mary Sue that i have seen in years)

[@dhisufiroafrozenseraphimdragon]

Most of us FE fans hate Corrin. He's the only FE protagonist that I absolutely don't like,

[@anonymus5637]

@@dhisufiroafrozenseraphimdragon yeah, it's a shame, if corrin had at least a bit of character development the story MAY Would be different

[@sulpherbratigh7936]

I always hated the "Pathetic MC being treated like shit from everyone in the series for no god damn reason" trope.

[@noshcocologue1106]

Disliking them is evil, theyre always right, theyre faster, better and stronger, theyre never wrong, deserve love from everyone no matter their actions, best at everything, magnet, flawless... In real life, this is called narcissistic personality disorder.

[@declaringpond2276]

Except they're not marry sue? It seems the alt right calls any character that is any part left towards them marry sue. Name me a supposive marry sue im sure I can point out why theyre not

[@noshcocologue1106]

​@@declaringpond2276 Unrelated to actual mary sues, I'm making a joke about real people with personality characteristics that we generally attribute to mary sues, which is partly true in itself because it seems so alike. Narcissists consider themselves huge mary sues if you think about it. The political argument that alt-rights accuse SJW characters of being mary sue is not entirely true, but it dos not mean it's completely idiotic. I think you meant to talk about shitlords. Shitlords are not always alt right they sometimes just pretend to be and believe to be edgelords just by copying 4chan shitlords with no self-reflexion until they believe their own lies.

[@sorrowandsufferin924]

Only problem with this being that the Mary Sue-traits are imaginable in real life. Even on these people. Nothing wrong with that from an audience's point of view. However, as soon as you move the story to a screen, these traits become real (in the fictional world they're portrayed in). I imagine a character who believes(!) himself to be a Mary Sue but actually NOT being one might be quite interesting to see on screen.

[@somegoodsoup7008]

Or a God complex.

[@hopedean6424]

I have an acquaintance that's a bit of a Mary Sue, but I don't think it's a personality disorder. I think it's a mixture of insecurity, denial, and a quick-temper that causes them to believe (or seem to believe) that they are above others or that they can do no wrong, coupled with their instinct to block and defend whenever something goes against their beliefs, or even something adjacent to their beliefs.

[@marhip7182]

«Mary sue» is an outdated term. In 2020 we called these woman «Rey».

[@bullettime8760]

Ma-Ray-Sue

[@pokelolmc6826]

I was about to comment (while watching the video) something OverlySarcasticProductions said about Mary Sues that I agreed with, that Mary Sues warp reality around them with their very presence, but as I got further into the video you ended up mentioning that. It’s interesting to see that people are mentioning this key trait of Mary Sues, instead of simply listing the vague “too perfect” explanation that everyone uses to justify a self-insert or a character they don’t like as a Mary Sue. Good work.

[@LiteratureDevil]

Yeah, it's important to distinguish between a powerful character and a Mary Sue. It's very easy to point at a powerful or talented character and call them a Mary Sue. Context is key. A good example I like to refer to is Light from Death Note. In any other story, he'd probably be a Mary Sue. He's a genius, charming, handsome, and popular. But, in the context of the story, he needs to be that way or else there would BE no story.

[@thenew4559]

To me the two main traits of a Mary Sue are that they 1) Have no meaningful flaws that negatively impact their character, being portrayed as "perfect", and 2) They are good at everything with no realistic justification for being so good. Them warping the story and reality around them is just a side effect of the horrible writing skills of the writer behind the character.

[@pokelolmc6826]

Literature Devil Exactly: a level of power and intellectual prowess like Light’s works in the context of the show, and the rules of the show’s universe don’t make an exception for him, either, so he’s just a powerful character. I think another difference that can show up between Mary Sues and very powerful characters is Mary Sues can have the miraculously high-level power and skill that you mentioned in the video (because of their perfection), but that power also comes from their Mary Sue-ness (the way the author warps reality around the Sue) instead of just being a character trait that was developed offscreen (like with a master/mentor character) or is explained through other means. For example, I’ve seen an annoying trait with self-insert OCs-turned Mary Sues in fan fiction for the anime Soul Eater: a teenage OC with a “dark and mysterious past”, who is an impossible hybrid of the different races/species in the anime’s universe (eg. a part demon/witch/death god hybrid), who comes to learn at the anime’s resident “Hogwarts academy but for Demon Hunters”...then they’re confronted with one of the most powerful and egocentric members of the show’s main cast, and they beat the canon character’s ass in a fight on their very first day of school with no trouble. There is no reason for the Sue’s established special level of power and skill when they’re just a teenager (aside from the whole “Sue is an incredibly rare and canonically unprecedented hybrid” excuse). The author doesn’t even show the OC using a move they’ve only been starting to practice to show the reader that they’ve had some sort of extensive off-screen training progress before their introduction; the author just lazily handwaves it with the OC’s species status and leaves it at that, or gives no explanation at all. So, this applies more to Sues in fanworks than to professional TV/comic/movie writers creating Canon Sues, but I’m of the opinion that warping reality around a Mary Sue includes not just the established lore of its universe; it also includes the established patterns/rules of canonical characterisation in that universe as well. In my Soul Eater example, the Sue winning against one of the most powerful main characters on their first day at Shounen Battle School (without any or little explanation) often involved making the canon character uncharacteristically regress in the power growth they had at that point in the canon timeline, or making them act out-of-character by turning some of their ego into even more stupidity than they had in canon. Since we aren’t given a proper explanation for the Sue’s incredible power, the way they win fights comes down to warping the canon portrayal of the other characters, who would more than likely win a battle against a new teenage character going on the establishment/development of their power and victories in canon. So oftentimes, the status as a ridiculously powerful character in a Mary Sue can be caused by the reality-distorting that defines them as a Sue, where powerful non-Sue characters have strength that originate from character traits and/or training instead of the universe revolving around them.

[@jonsnor4313]

Light isnt a mary sue because he is a villain protagonist. He broke bad and went heisenberg. A good example is superman, or one puch man his comedy spinoff. Despite being stronger most of the time they have inner conflicts. Saitama fight the depressive mood he got by being bored from being so op and never getting a challenge and superman lost everything, so he wants to protect everything and created that superman persona with this unweavering will, despite being just a "human" that was raised by farmers in kansas that struggles with life like everybody else. People trying to challenge that persona and make him utilizing his empathy are the things that can really hurt him deep on an emotional and mental level. That is if he is well written. One more reason for hat to snyder portraying him as cynical jerk.

[@BarkingCur]

@@LiteratureDevil Thank you. This is the argument I get in with people when they try to say if Star War's Rey is a Mary Sue, then so is James Bond. No, James Bond is acceptable because, when he is introduced, we know he is an experienced agent with years of training. Even then, Bond often messes up and gets his butt kicked before turning things around and winning. A Mary sue comes into an already established universe and, without training or rational explanation, is immediately the best at all things and succeeds without trying, breaking the founding rules in the universe it invades. It's as if I wrote a story where James Bond recruits a high school kid who, without training, is accepted into the agency, kicks James Bond's butt during training, then goes on to single-handedly defeats every major James Bond villain in a day.

[@rickjohnson1719]

If I inserted myself in a story there wouldn't be a story because I'm too lazy to do anything, but that wont happen because I'm too lazy to write a story

[@muddigutz]

rick johnson are you...me?

[@Wolfphototech]

Thank you for being honest .

[@Magical_Trash]

rick johnson same lmao 😂

[@bigredhammer2]

I think you just accidentally wrote a story

[@benjaminkemer6428]

It depends. Frank Miller likes to make his characters fail and suffer like he has in his own life.

[@TheRisky9]

I'm an aspiring writer and I started studying stories and plots. Why? Because it takes years of STUDYING to do something and do it well. And part of that was comparing stories I like with ones I hated. So, naturally, SJW stories ended up being on my hate list. One thing I noticed about SJW stories is that they don't actually have rising action. Like at all. And that's because rising action is created by a series of "oh shit" moments that just stack on top of each other until it hits a climax. And that doesn't work if the character has no real chance of ever failing. And people fail because of their short comings and weaknesses. So it kind of doesn't work. So an SJW story, instead of having rising action, it sort has this really drawn out exposition of characters doing these boring, mundane things, with some "action stuff" here and there, just so the SJWs can say, "See? They're struggling." And you're just like "No, they aren't. They solved that in two seconds." And I hate the "action stuff" the most because you're just like 'oh, something's finally going to happen... no? Really? They're just going to zap and it's done.... Okay..." As for their outrage against Black Widow, I don't get that. Many stories with a female protagonist ends with an epilogue years later where the protagonist has *gasp* children! It's has its roots in a very real phenomenon called "Nesting," which is described as a woman's compulsion to make things suitable and safe for her offspring. It's actually why women are more concerned then men with how the house looks and tends to kick into high gear during pregnancy, especially the third trimester. And in context to a story, a woman has a child at the end of her story because it shows she's satisfied the world is safe again. Well, with Black Widow, she doesn't get that symbolic ending. It means she will always have one purpose: To fight. And even if you don't plan on having children of your own and feel it's not for every woman, we should still feel that sense of sorrow for the fact Black Widow doesn't even have that choice. That's the tragedy. For people who are supposedly, oh so pro choice, they seem to be unconcerned that a woman just had her choice taken.

[@forestelfranger]

Oh yes a lot of the boring mundane things can be seen in a fair number of marvel comics these days. Where they will talk about food or end up explaining how a car works to you. That or go on and on, making you question what the heck are they trying to tell you here. By using some sort of long word no one besides them seems to know about. Only for it to be about coffee. So rather then using the word coffee, which everyone understands. They end up using some long word i doubt most have heard about. Which the unstopable wasp which was brought back after failing. Is a good case of this awful story telling. You will have action that lasts for about maybe a page or less. Along with other marvel comics having had a issue with fights ending in one punch. Which a fight ending that fast is not a struggle. At best it's showing someone as being awesome, skilled or bad ass. Not as weak or a struggle. Given being injured, wounded or the fight making you tired out to the point you can't stand or are force to flee for your life. Now that would be a struggle, not one punch and it's over. Given it's not only they forget struggles exist but also mental ones. Which that does end up being a very annoying trope when used poorly as it is done in the cases like say marvel comic. Oh action, finally something enterta.... Oh it's over. Given i can't call it a fight when it's so one sided more often then not and lasts for such a short time, that action stuff seems a fitting name for it. For it doesn't end up advancing the story or setting anything up, it also doesn't last long enough to be entertaining, it's just there. It just exists. Given you have one punch-man and Mob Psycho 100, which deal with characters who are very powerful for their setting. Yet give them flaws and mental challenges. Making the characters interesting, due to things not always going their way. In Mob case, bottling up his emotions which lead to his powers pouring out and being unable to control them sooner or later. Mob is not very good at dealing with social related things and can be a bit two trusting. Saitama would say save the day but not get the credit for it or even demonize for it. That and his powers get in the way of his goal, he wants a challenge, a true fight again. Yet his powers stop him from reaching that goal. Which yeah there seems to be a strange twisted thing when it comes to their writing. For they want the characters to not have a happy ever after ending but at the same time don't want to go for a dark fantasy. Leading to some strange mix of we are meant to believe the world is total and pure crap, yet the whole world bends the knee for the main character in question. Bending reality to suit her. Which can lead to a confusing tone. Given this world seems full of evil but at the same time, the main character is able to deal with it easily no matter what is thrown at them. Making you wonder how they have not fixed all the worlds problems or why these problems still exist, when they can just go to the source of the problem and bang fix it with a snap of their fingers.

[@TheRisky9]

@@forestelfranger You hit on a ton of stuff I haven't thought of. When you look at writers like Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, their prose is beautiful, but they don't beat around the bush with their meaning. The purpose of the prose is to be appealing and attractive so you want to read it and engage with that author's message. They never talk down to their audience, because they want you to hear their message. SJWs on the other hand create this "secret language" where they smugly talk down to their audience about everything. And if you don't like the way they're talking to you, well, you're just a racist or one of the other seven deadly "-ists" within their cult. You deserve to be talked to like that because you're just a racist. Which makes me scratch my head because are these people trying to change the world? Because their smugness is going to convince exactly zero racists to stop being racist. It might intimidate good people into silence in fear of being called racist, but no actual change for those who really do want to cause minorities harm. And when you intimidate an otherwise good person, you're not fighting anything. You're just being a bully. One thing I learned from my studies is how much a tit for tat writing is. It's part of communication. And it's so important for me, who is trying to become a writer, to understand how to engage an audience. This tends to mean that I don't get to always write exactly how I want to write, but I feel my message is too important to only engage people who think like myself.

[@LiteratureDevil]

Exactly. SJWs don't human very well. The world of superheroes has its roots deep in the Pulp Era of fiction. So when a typical fan of a superhero comic picks up a new issue, they're looking for action, twists, and a heroic struggle. To normal people that means fights, things going wrong, and facing nigh impossible odds. But SJWs don't write stories. They write porn...oppression porn. They write for people who aren't so much interested in the poorly written story as they are in seeing heroes being oppressed and the oppressor being destroyed in the most brutal way possible. Concerning Black Widow, I'm not surprised at their outrage. I mean, the kind of people who got angry at that are the same kind of people who think getting an abortion is something you should brag about.

[@Outrider74]

Well written and well put. As a fellow indie author I wish you the best in your work. Let us know when you have things ready for us to see!

[@Monty2289]

That's a decent point. It's pretty evident in Star Wars Episode 8. The entire movie is plague with a bunch of 'oh shit' moments with the characters as a whole but especially Rey. The Resistence is running out of resources and fuel and though and yet the First Order can't catch them. Kylo has a chance to shoot the bridge but for whatever reason he decides not. It doesn't matter as the bridge is destroy, Leia is flung out of the ship. Leia just uses the force and returns. Finn and Rose go on a mission where they are captured and thrown in prison but that's okay, the person they are looking for is just...there. He just walks out of prison and helps them and requires no logical payment in return. Rey is captured by Snoke and Kylo under the pretense that Kylo kill Rey in order to complete his training. No biggie. Snoke is killed because he doesn't have spatial awareness. Holdo then precedes to use a maneuver which while high effective (and dumb) also somehow doesn't kill all 4/5 of our main characters. BB8 scans the base they are in. It has only one way in and one way out. Until...it doesn't. Rose's stupid kamikaze into Finn doesn't kill them both. The First Order does not take fire on them and they're back inside the base with no conceivable way of how they got there with no functioning transportation. Rian was simply done with them and he didn't want them to be in danger any longer so they 'teleported' back. The Resistance is now a group small enough to fit on the Falcon. None of their supposed allies on the outer rim decided to come to their aid. They are effectively as of this movie entire narrative are destroyed. But...they have everything they need as it cuts to some rando kid who can just...use the force. The movie's set up for trials and tribulations literally didn't matter.

[@DigimontamerB]

The difference between a character like Superman, and a Mary-Sue, comes down to the difference in approach: Superman: "What would it mean for someone to have this kind of power?" May-Sue: "I want this character to have all the power."

[@Antasma1]

Even the Disney movie Zootopia, which had an agenda, still made room for its main character to struggle and work hard to reach her goal

[@darksoles1305]

@Antasma1 yeah, he said some of them were good characters

[@sensualarmpit3512]

Yeah and she used her wits to overcome them and male was utterly strong and charismatic. And the main villain was a female. Its good actually.

[@barbarianaggressor879]

A ploy that they took from Pixar, no doubt

[@Antasma1]

@CyberMatt16 Anti racism

[@filippians413]

Thats why that was a decent movie.

[@TheAtkey]

"The greatest sin of an SJW Sue it refuses to die" Made me thing of this quote. “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” C.S. Lewis

[@tackyman2011]

Lewis knocks it out of the park here, doesn't he? Not too many writers any more who actually think. Especially film writers, amiright?

[@aquila4460]

@@tackyman2011 Actually there are. Just look a bit closer, there are still good films, still interesting films. And back then there where also a bunch of mediocer and bad films, you just don't remember them anymore...or have never heard of them, because they where bad or mediocer.

[@maybutworse4409]

@@aquila4460 tbh I think SJW Sue's are mainly a hollywood staple because cash cow and fear of no sales (ironically backfiring) however there are brilliant characters in indie films, for example in "never let me go" the love interest of the main character is rich, powerful, everyone loves him, he could be seen as a Mary Sue at the surface level as there's no explaination as to how he gets there, however in the film it revolves around his fatal flaw, the fact that he's in love with the main character, a sexually confused 15 year old boy.

[@whisperingshadowXI]

The C.S. Lewis quote is universal here. It identifies the faults of authoritarian extremism, regardless of political spectrum. A dictatorial theocracy is no better than a secular dictatorship. A far-right dictator is no better than a far-left dictator and both are no better than the middling dictator because at the end of the day, they are all still fucking dictators. But wait...if C.S. Lewis is able to identify all the dictators...then he must be a filthy pan-literal author and thus sadly an SJW as per identity culture. Oh no...

[@MrElionor]

Noble intentions are all well and good but always remember "hate the sin not sinner"

[@almor2445]

They don't understand story arcs and character development. They confuse 'strong' with 'perfect'

[@thatHARVguy]

Paula Smith was not a professional writer when she created Lt. Mary Sue. I give her a pass for this. As for the professional writers, don't they know better? And we point back to the above comment as to why.

[@sasukeuchiha998]

They also confuse right with white.

[@User-LS-n5m]

@@thatHARVguy those professional writers don't tho. most writers for mainstream media are white men. They know that female characters and poc characters are making money these days and are attempting to meet market demand but since they are white male writers who have no idea how to write a decent non white non male character it ends up being shitty as hell and people just assume it's a Mary Sue while not knowing what a mary sue even is. However on the flip side, the public still needs to support their work to pave the way for better but lesser known writers who CAN write decent female or poc characters that don't come off as the badly written "Mary Sue"

[@MarcoAurelio-vv3gz]

@@User-LS-n5m "The públic still need tô suport their work..." No we don't. Just the real good writing characters. There a lot of them.

[@AceArata]

Man, imagine being credited with writing one of the worst characters in existence that an entire trope is named after said character

[@stillbuyvhs]

"A Trekkie's Tale" was a parody of other contemporary fanfics, & the author promoted the use of the term to describe other characters they considered poorly written.

[@scarletpanther2513]

Stan Lee has said he wanted his superheros to have flaws. To have REAL problems, and have real reactions to the problems of having powers. And for there to be problems with said powers. That idea was rejected once and was scoffed at since back then, and apparently once again, people don't want to see heroes with flaws. They idolize heroes. They don't realize that by accepting someone else has weaknesses, doesn't mean that they are admitting to their own. This mentality is leaking its way into entertainment. The poor authors are faced with the choice of bending to the demands that their characters be perfect, or make a well rounded character with flaws thus insuring they don't get readers interest.

[@moremoschops96]

Best superhero movie ever; Watchmen. Each of the heroes is savagely compromised by some psychological disorder.

[@cripplinganxiety1941]

Real flaws not being freaking clumsy or shy for relatable character's you can feel for not flawless mary sues.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

Actually, all that "they should have FLAEWS" is pretty damn widspread and boring knee-jerk reaction. *Realistic* reactions, problems and solutions would be nice. Like how Superman knows where he is most needed? What are his priorities, if he cannot save everyone? What experience, insight did he gain?

[@andrewi.crocker8675]

So I'm guessing you were a fan of how Luke was handled in The Last Jedi?

[@EMETRL]

and that's how black panther became a thing

[@Call_Me_Matrix]

So, Infinity Guantlet=the power of a mary sue?

[@LiteratureDevil]

That's a good way of looking at it lol

[@zuzoscorner]

@@LiteratureDevil and yet Captain Marvel will be able to defeat it because she's a girl! R.I.P MCU...

[@LiteratureDevil]

@@zuzoscorner The movie isn't even out yet and I already have a good idea where it's going.

[@zuzoscorner]

@@LiteratureDevil more frustrating is when there ARE good fleshed out female characters...an the SJW crowd are still demand perfection

[@JepperlyKlepperson]

Comment for exposure

[@GNackers53]

And with that statement, you have accurately described every main character on Mysticons.

[@four-en-tee]

Or every main character of an isekai anime, minus Sora and Shiroe. To be fair, those shows are for power fantasy. Doesn't mean their stories are good though. You can do power fantasy so long as its written carefully, whether it be to subvert the genre like Saitama or fully embrace the genre like Kenshiro. On top of that, the tone of your show is important too. Perfect characters can more easily fly in a comedy than they would in a serious drama (unless your story is just balls off the walls crazy like Medaka Box).

[@GeneralG1810]

And every hero in Disney star wars past, present AND future I bet Force awakens Rey - Orphaned girl who turns out to be brave and heroic Rogue one Jyn - orphaned girl who turns out to be brave and heroic TLJ Rose - well you see where I'm going

[@nguyenten6877]

@@four-en-tee and also that guy from re:zero,he sorta dies alot

[@Sunsetsoliloquy]

_Natsuki Subaru, the guy that dies every single time but always tries to continue through no matter the cost, is who you're looking for._

[@cheetahtaildraws9392]

@@nguyenten6877 I read, "he dies a lot" and immediately thought of Dean Winchester..... My mind is so messed up.

[@nateb866]

I love how you used Avatar as an example here, because that had some of the best portrayals of strong women in all of media (of course, Avatar is one of the best things to come out of media). Just look at all the strong women we see in that show, and it's not because they're strong simply for being women. Azula, Katarra, Toph, they were all great characters that we learned to care about. They grew strong through practice. We weren't forced their power onto us because they're girls, and yet they did a better job of convincing me that they were strong women than most SJW characters (Brie Larson Captain Marvel, for one).

[@dryfox11]

And they all had obvious flaws that only helped their characters grow stronger! Azula being a mental case Katana not knowing how to socialize without Sokka, cause he’s the jokes guy Toph maybe teaching style? Definitely not being blind, that makes her incredibly overpowered with earth bending, but it was a flaw on the airships I guess so- Yeah just a good show in general

[@rhondahoward8025]

We should also specify what a Mary Sue is not because you have the opposite problem of authors getting _too_ paranoid when they are not in fact writing Mary Sues. 1. A powerful character is NOT a Mary Sue. It is not power that makes a character a Sue. It's *UNEARNED* or *UNDESERVED* power. It's universe-breaking power. Your character can be physically strong but emotionally fragile (think Lapis from Steven Universe or Elsa from Frozen). Being able to lift heavy weights might be great in specialized situations, but you're not gonna get invited out for pizza just because you can benchpress a whale. 2. A talented, unique, or gifted character in SOME areas (not ALL) is also NOT a Mary Sue. This trips a lot of people up. They think if the protagonist isn't Blandy McAverage Face, then they've got a Mary Sue on their hands. Not true! In fact, your character SHOULD have distinctive quirks and unique abilities to stand out in your story. Maybe your character is a really good tech nerd or socially charismatic (believably, not the whole world falling at their feet with little effort), maybe they're good at killing stuff or repairing toasters. Whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. All you have to do is balance out what they're good at with real flaws, and no, CLUMSY is not a flaw, especially if other characters still find them "cute" for it.

[@JustaGuy_Gaming]

Well the other thing to consider is almost any level of skill or power is okay, if the character is shown to earn it over time. We the audience/readers need to see a progression. In the case of Rey from star wars it would of been nice to at least see her fix a speeder bike or something before on screen before she instantly fixed the Millennium Falcon. Or maybe her first repair job failed to work properly and they ended up crash landing on a planet. Just enough to escape the Tie fighters, but not enough to safely fly through space to their real destination. One of the biggest signs of Mary Sue's is not just being powerful but instantly powerful as needed with no hints or build up along the way. We don't even get so much as a Training Montage of Rey really. She did less work than Luke did with Yoda, in less time. Yet she became a badass TM instantly. Huge Power jumps via Time skip is a huge red flag for a potential Mary Sue. As much as I like the series Naruto is really bad at this with a lot of it's characters. At times it seemed like every one but Naruto always got off screen power ups out of no where. While every thing Naruto did seemed to hurt/kill him so he got weaker over time with his previously hard earned skills and abilities. I almost think Naruto's author was so worried about him being a Gary Stu they went the opposite route and over nerfed him constantly while giving Sasuke constant free power ups.

[@JosephWiess]

The Golden Age Lex Luthor. He was just your run of the mill business tycoon, not a level 9 intellect.

[@narutardkyuubi]

Very good advice. One of my favorite characters is Shigeo “Mob” Kageyama, the protagonist in Mob Psycho 100. He’s established to be the strongest Esper in the city. Effortlessly taking out Evil Spirits and possessing psychic powers that could allow him to tear apart the city if he felt like it. What makes him relateable? He’s really incompetent in areas outside of Psychic Powers, and as he points out, psychic powers don’t make you popular. He’s in really bad shape, gets poor grades in school, is cripplingly socially awkward, can’t confess to the girl he has a crush on, and lives in the shadow of his younger brother Ritsu (who, despite being a year younger, is taller, more fit, gets better grades, is beloved by the school, and is in the student council). Ritsu gets that way by working his ass off and applying himself in anything he puts his mind to. In the second episode, Mob joins the body improvement club cuz he’s sick of being a weakling; he wants to be swol and in good shape. The results are not immediate however; he’s not even able to finish their morning mile run before passing out. Yet he keeps on trying, never giving up, and the BIC guys are very nice and constantly help him whenever they can, because they can see his determination. By the second season, Mob joins a marathon, wanting to finish in the top 10. He managed to make #79 (out of 700) before passing out, but it’s acknowledged that he’s improved a lot; something the audience can see. Nothing about what Mob desires is given to him for free. He has to put in effort to do so. Some things are, in fact, impossible, but he still puts in the effort and we get to see him grow, even if he did fail. Hell, the final boss of the 1st season is an old Esper who’s obsessed with Psychic Powers and believes that, since he’s an Esper, the world should kiss his ass and give him whatever he wants. He starts ranting about nobody giving him the attention he feels entitled to, and the animation deforms to make him look like a giant baby. Mob repeats himself: Psychic Powers don’t make you popular. Determination, kindness, moral character, etc. that’s what makes you popular; it’s far better to be a good person than some Uber perfect super person.

[@Ouchimoo]

I actually really enjoy that George R.R. Martin put in a Mary Sue into his writing on purpose. I surmise the reasoning is he probably wanted to show is that it's not the character that's an issue, but how you write a story.

[@eirmundgundnand9442]

@@Ouchimoo Eh? Which character is a Mary Sue in GoT?

[@totallynoteverything1.]

The only mary sue I like is the one and only Doomslayer **metallica plays**

[@PlexusDuMenton]

well, it's not even a mary sue... Based on the testament from the game, he was betrayed, is angry as hell, and even got sucessfully sealed... making it far to be perfect ... but likeable like no other ... and cool ... and fucking badass

[@joshuakim5240]

To be fair, Doomslayer has his flaws. He's extremely simplistic bordering on stupidity, impatient, and his past is filled with failure.

[@caution-monkey4603]

And now he’s slicing literal demons in half with a fucking chainsaw

[@infinityhand6569]

Doom Slayer lost to the demons before, failed to protect his people, etc. Even the super OP Doom Slayer isn't a Mary Sue

[@them.]

I mean, he has his flaws, but if the sues count characters like doomguy, then doomguy is obviously the best

[@frankfritter8171]

So it's like a female chad.

[@willtattersall1940]

ExsertZaid667 so it’s like a Stacy?

[@anduro7448]

Female chad= Stacy (i know form 4 chan)

[@hyperhektor7733]

nope, a disabled gay chad "of colour" is the correct answer ;D

[@elevennineteen6450]

@transwomen aresexistmen I have a hard time believeing you're a troll, either that or you're dedicated to trolling...

[@willtattersall1940]

ThatOneWolf 1119 with a name like that it’s likely a troll

[@ivanminevski714]

"Darth Vader the most powerful force user in the galaxy far far away, was still prevented from raising the dead" *laughs in Disney*

[@opshredderytp]

Necromancy in SW when

[@jedimike7622]

@@opshredderytp Fallen Order. Turns out the Nightsisters are capable of some crazy shit.

[@lannobile7260]

@@jedimike7622 We've always kinda known of that though. I mean they rebuilt Savage from the ground up and turned him into Superman using freaky Sith sorocery. Raising the dead is not that far off from full biological reconstruction down to the very soul...

[@jedimike7622]

@@lannobile7260 yeah, I was just saying to the other guy, Necromancy is already in SW because of Fallen Order.

[@lannobile7260]

@@jedimike7622 I meant even before Fallen Order. I can think of several Sith from the Old Republic era alone that had zombie servants, were themselves basically walking corpses, sealed their souls into artifacts, etc... The fact that the Nightsisters, who are basically the only people still around with access to lost Sith techniques and even Sidious was wary of dealing with, would have access to Sith Necromancy isn't that far of a stretch...

[@greyfox37]

Batman: Crime created him and with all the money, skills, and intelligence he has, the loss of his family haunts him the rest of his life. He never wants anyone to go through what he did and when he fails, it hurts him as well. Spiderman: The weight of the world on the shoulders of a young man who wants nothing more than to study, date, and lead a normal life. Losing his uncle and allowing it to happen, he is haunted and also invigorated with Uncle Ben's famous quote "with great power comes great responsibility." And these are the reasons why I love these characters. They are real.

[@lukekerins3668]

@Un-broken and victorious how would having literally perfect characters work? If they are all perfect they'd all agree on everything, get along etc. That part sounds like it needs work but the rest sounds really interesting

[@vortex7733]

Not to mention relatable. Haveing to balace relationships with that life. We get glimses of that's life outside of the hero buissnis and that's cool and adds to them.

[@lukekerins3668]

@Un-broken and victorious ok well it sounds pretty good in that case

[@cognitivedissonance8406]

Support the death of humanity Do the right thing

[@lukekerins3668]

@Un-broken and victorious personally, if you're planning on having the two groups meet and interact, I'd like to see the psychological impact meeting a genetically perfect version yourself would be like and the impact of finding out you're a clone of someone that is effectively a lesser version of you

[@erikandersson1647]

Anakin, as a kid - was absolutely annoying, due to his Mary Sue attributes. I think George Lucas was trying to make a point with his potential, and how it all went south. However, Anakin's development occurred nonetheless - to become a monster. He screwed up horribly, killed children, became one of the most infamous villains of all. Child Anakin is the epitome of a Mary Sue - but when you include the entire story line, not even close. He screws up and fails left and right.

[@GGsorensen]

But even for Anakin, we get an explaination for his good piloting skills. It didn’t just come from talent, it came from a lot of practise doing pod racing as a kid

[@fatbuckrto8371]

I get the argument on both sides for Anakin. I can see him as a Mary Sue in TPM, maybe, but there is an argument to be made that he succeeded on luck alone (at least in the final battle). And he sure as hell didn't best Darth Maul in a lightsaber duel. Like you say, the Mary Sue angle falls apart completely in AOTC. He gets beat frequently in that movie, and gets his ass *royally* handed to him by Dooku. In fact, I was kind of surprised by that defeat, given that he was a "vergence in the Force." But one thing is made certain over and over again, even in TPM: he *had to be trained to become a Jedi.*

[@nopenope1510]

Anakin CANNOT be a Gary Sue. He was BORN from the force. Mary/Gary Sue = Someone who has NO REASON to have the powers/abilities/things they "have".

[@erikandersson1647]

@@nopenope1510 While I see your argument, and personally don't view Anakin in his entirety as a Marty Stu, you're idea of what equates a Mary Sue isn't accurate. Mary Sue's are just characters without flaws, frequently having the story-line bend around their greatness. This eliminates the audiences ability to relate and makes them annoying. A simple explanation for their greatness doesn't automatically exempt them from the label. They have to have flaws and character development, otherwise it's just lame.

[@erikandersson1647]

@Brady Carrigan Right; he wasn't a Mary Sue, but he had Mary Sue like attributes as a child, which were explained in the movie of his first appearance ... but an explanation alone isn't quite enough and is still annoying. Even if, in later films, Rey is given some hastily built back story to her inexplicable greatness, it's too late. Those explanations were missing in her original appearance. To make it 10x worse, the Star Wars universe has warped itself to accommodate her. Luke Skywalker's entire character was transformed, to elevate her. She's Kathleen Kennedy's baby Mary, and the damage is permanent to the franchise.

[@fdajax5107]

Black widow isn't a Mary sue.... yet Endgame: we'll make sure she doesn't

[@Killarusca]

She died being the best female in the mcu, a female without any special powers that only relied on her skills

[@NickIntoTech]

*CAPTAIN MARVEL HAS LEFT THE CHAT*

[@AlFoor1]

You either die a strong, developed female character or live long enough to see yourself become an SJW...

[@Astroryx]

Endgame saved Black Widow from befalling the same fate of the other SJW characters.

[@milesandrews6711]

The reason they killed her is because she's basically "damaged goods" due to the scene in the avengers movie where she shows weakness they wanted to make way for captain marvel

[@kleggers7558]

Bruh apparently the people at tumblr think this video is right wing extremism... are... are they familiar with what extremism is? Is a man describing a bad literature trope extremism now?

[@LiteratureDevil]

Yup lol

[@thedoomtrainer8292]

As a 17 year old, sometimes I'm sad that I couldn't have grown up or lived in a time when most mainstream movies were made to tell a good story, and not made to promote some sort of perverted political or social agenda.

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

I though the Tumblr definition of "extremism" was anything that criticized women and minorities unless they also disagreed with them...

[@Sorain1]

@@thedoomtrainer8292 Well the good news is that you can still find them, and without wading through all the dross that was also out at the time.

[@grantjohnson5785]

@@thedoomtrainer8292 Make sure you buy hard copies (DVD, Blu-Ray) of old good movies before they get "cancelled".

[@warteyeguy]

Rey is a horrendous character - no weakness, different personality every single frame, etc

[@LiteratureDevil]

This is true

[@ssunfish]

Most are flat personalities

[@SinHurr]

You should try actually watching the movies and not rage-fellating yourself during them.

[@LiteratureDevil]

@@SinHurr I did watch the movies. In fact, that's how I know they're terrible.

[@teabearchurchill5600]

Honestly I enjoyed watching TFA the first time. It wasn't until much later that I realized what I was seeing on the screen and started to go... "Urg." In all honesty, with the right writer you could come up with reasons Rey is as she is, and have it make sense. Maybe she's a second attempt at a Force Avatar, only this time The Force (TM) is almost literally working through her to attempt to correct the imbalances. Hence how things bend her way. Hence how she can do so much with nearly no training.

[@BachBreaker8]

Good news is that Black Widow had good development in Endgame.

[@mikusmom]

тнιѕ ιѕ тнє σиℓу ѕρσιєя тнαт ιѕ αℓℓσωє∂

[@sasukeuchiha998]

Well...

[@kankeydong2500]

And what did it cost?

[@nobutasu3285]

@@kankeydong2500 everything

[@eascide]

I really liked the “Woman representation battle” parts in both Infinity War and Endgame. They were super cool and they didn’t get so in your face about it

[@schechter01]

As of now, 7,200 politicized fanfic writers hate this video.

[@LiteratureDevil]

"Don't ask questions Just consume product Then get excited for next products." As far as I can tell they're all triggered by me mentioning Ray for a few minutes at one point. The video isn't even about her lol.

[@schechter01]

@@LiteratureDevil "Don't ask questions Just consume product Then get excited for next products." That's the motto of today's consumerist society. 😏 Gotta keep all those businesses & corporations solvent & their workers employed, right?... That's one of the things that amuses me about SJWs: They consider themselves as righteous crusaders for underdog minorities, but they ignore the class gap & still support consumer capitalism. (No, I'm not a socialist...I just prefer small local businesses to big transnational firms. Small biz guys can be held accountable)

[@AbyssalRook]

@@LiteratureDevil She's literally the only example you brought up in a video that talks about how it's some rampant virus that's ruining everything. It's a video that claims that "so many" SJW characters are Mary Sues, and the three characters you mentioned that even remotely fit your point were 1) A fanfic character from the 70's that was specifically designed as a *parody* of similar character trends, bringing a bunch of traits in the Star Trek fanwriting community into one amalgam, 2) Rey, who apparently wasn't the point of the video, and 3) Black Widow, who you admit isn't actually a Mary Sue but oh just you wait guys she will be. The rest of it was just another screed about how being an SJW makes you mean and ugly and fat, and a passable overview of what a Mary Sue is. Where are all of these Mary Sue SJWs you're talking about? What would an SJW character look like if they were done right? What does SJW even mean when it comes to a character? What makes Rey an SJW? Or is it that it's only an SJW character if you can find enough wrong to vaguely relate them to a Mary Sue? What is the actual relationship between these things, and why does it actually matter? Is there a causative aspect to it? If so, what is it? Or, like here, are you just going to assume that everyone who didn't like your video is a crazy feminist who just likes Rey cause she's a woman with power and dismiss any criticism or further questioning regarding the point of this video on assumption and stereotyping?

[@AbyssalRook]

@Chris Hansen When you don't have a reply to legitimate criticism so you just call it 'salt'.

[@AbyssalRook]

@Chris Hansen So you don't know me, or my position, or what I think, or what I know, but your first reaction upon seeing me ask some questions and criticize the original work, its content or lack thereof, and the creator's response to people thumbing down his video being that every single one of them must be mad just because he mentioned Rey was to call me salty and avoid the question. Again, knowing literally nothing about me. And your second reaction was to outright lie about what SJW stands for, since you don't just get to redefine terms that you use and expect everyone to accept that out of hand, and double down on refusing to answer any of the criticisms or questions. Well bravo. Guess you really showed me. I'm thoroughly cowed by your prodigious intellect and probable inability to recognize sarcasm.

[@sergegordeev9426]

Rey vs. Jar Jar Jar Jar: Heesa weird, heesa disliked. But Qui Gon sees that he will be very useful. Kenobi thinks of him as of an useless lifeform, but Jinn digs deeper. Jar Jar never wants to do anything bad, but he is stupid. When the time comes, Jar Jar establishes an alliance between Naboo colonists and the native Gungans. In AOTC he is replacing Padme in the Senate. His goal is probably just telling Padme what happened. Palpatine however sees him, knowing that he is dumb. "If only senator Amidala was here..." Jar Jar thinks that he is worthless, dumb... no. He will show that he is worth something, that he can be useful and serious, making a fatal mistake... In ROTS we see him not only mourning Padme, but feeling incredibly guilty and devastated... Rey: A strong female character. Loved by everybody on her side, every enemy only cares about her. She masters flying the Falcon, lightsaber skills, force using, blaster shooting... on the first try. She has a bit of an emotional moment in ROS when fighting Palpatine, but all that darkside blah blah blah stuff is forgotten to make her kill Sheev in a cool way.

[@somersault1123]

I don't even like Star Wars and I was able to poke holes in the logic that fans used to defend Rey's characterization. Luke was not a Mary Sue; Han and Leia treated him like a stupid, annoying younger brother constantly. He was a trained pilot. His two friends from his homeworld were pilots as well and Luke discussed training that he had done prior to leaving Tatooine in the Death Star mission briefing. Then he got his arm lopped off in his first lightsaber fight and got knocked out by a mummy in the opening act of the first movie and by a yeti in the second.

[@Rikalonius]

Even Obi Wan said, "I've heard you've become quite a good pilot yourself." Luke's piloting ability was properly foreshadowed. His decision to leave Tatooine was agency on his part. Rey is content being a scavenger, but when the Empire, errr FO attack, she suddenly can jump into a ship that "hasn't flown in years" and fly it like the best star pilot in the galaxy. She's forced off Tatooine, err Jakku, not because she makes a choice, but because the plot dictates it. As you rightly said. Luke got his ass kicked by a mummy. Got tossed down in the bar. Gets mocked by Han Solo. Gets mocked by Princess Leia. Is nearly drowned by a sewer monster; watches his mentor die, and only in the end, through grit and determination, and Obi Wan helping him, achieves a victory.

[@3Dusers]

Knocked out by a mummy, i snorted lmao

[@dugonman8360]

I really, REALLY want to make a 5 book sci-fi series where a tumblr mary sue-esque character is leading the fight of a matriarchal advance society with a rag tag bunch of other tropy girl power characters against a evil patriarchal nazi analogy. Let the tumblrs fall in love with the series and then BOOM! You find out the enemy was the good guy all along, and the MC becomes ths main villian while her crew defects and have to fight against her near impossible skills.

[@jebes909090]

You sound like nasi. Go to gulag

[@Divinemakyr]

@Cool Dude What are you talking about, mate?

[@Astroryx]

Honestly is sometimes i’m working on doing right now.

[@Overlordough1201]

It should be subtle, her evil. Make these little ticks she gets, have her evil be something just on the edge of awareness, so that people who aren't blinded by Political Agendas can notice it before the SJWs can. Make it super noticeable in the book before the reveal, and have a little subplot of a character who everyone thought was dead discover the truth. Then, initiate the reveal, and delete your Twitter.

[@Dragonage2ftw]

Cringe

[@garrynewby1442]

The thing that gets me is that if there was a real life version of a Mary Sue all the people that actually like the concept of a Mary Sue would hate her because of her perfection and how the world seems to fall at her feet. Which is why it doesn't make sense why that type of character is so glamorized

[@siriusPuwu]

Isn't it because its an easy character to write with?

[@atbailey7227]

They're basically writing a rich straight old white man

[@gryla5290]

Yeah I watched a Ted talk about women dragging other women down to "level the playing field". They are so committed equality they sabotage anybody better than them

[@LuckySketches]

It works because if the character is "your" minority then the character is suddenly you (another topic entirely), and it feels better to be the monarch on the throne than literally anyone else. At least when you're a self-righteous narcissist.

[@supremecaffeine2633]

@@atbailey7227 No, rich people are already disliked for their success.

[@elektrik3654]

Anakin is broken, that's the entire point of his character. His slow corruption of his extreme power is what the prequels are about

[@kyotanaka920]

The simplest reason: These SJW characters are more often than not, self-inserts. Take any SJW character, and you're very likely to see resemblance of the author/creator. Even existing characters are not safe, if there's a reboot the redesigned character might end up becoming a self insert. One recent example I can give of this is the new "anime" being made by Crunchyroll. The reason why they make these characters Mary Sues? Narcissism. They see themselves as perfect beings, anyone trying to drag them down are evils that must be perished. They are the sort of people that would sniff their own farts everyday if they're physically able to.

[@Hinatachan360]

I immediately thought of High Guardian Spice while reading your comment. The main character is a short, boyish lesbian with burgundy colored hair. She looks just like the creator of the cartoon, who is a short, boyish lesbian with burgundy colored hair.

[@DarkSymphony777]

As someone who reads fanfiction. DON'T GO NEAR THE WRESTLING SECTION..... Just don't

[@almightykue3914]

I am not sure if its that they see themselves as perfect but its their projection of perfection, or themselves as perfect in the written format. They can definitely be self-obsessed.

[@DarkSymphony777]

@@almightykue3914 their are exceptions to this, though not many

[@HereComesPopoBawa]

"Self-insert" is basically the definition of what the Mary Sue trope refers to. I doubt that it has anything to do with "social justice" though, that's kind of a nebulous phantasm. Any narrative with heroes and villains carries its own implicit assumptions of justice, and that tends to be more often of a social than criminal variety. Nearly all fantasy and superhero media, for instance, outline big struggles to overcome oppression and achieve justice of some kind. People cry about it only when such work doesn't reflect their own values of what constitutes oppression or justice

[@shellofcel]

A good character has weaknesses, even in their strengths. There has to be an equal or greater balance to test their resolve. Luke came from nothing, and his love for his friends almost got him killed when he went to save Han and Leia from Vader. He lost everything and was beaten to the ground, he even lost an arm. This moment of absolute loss pushed Luke into growth.

[@magnusm4]

It's kind of how you can see Batman. Greatest detective. Highly intelligent. Physically and mentally capable to take on supernatural beings. Can outsmart and defeat multiple foes even his greatest ones. Strikes fear and confusion even among his superhero allies and foreign super beings. Yet he has emotional and personal issues that makes you question his justice even though his heart is in the right place. And this collides with his goal and such he can take on basically anything that comes his way, but is almost helpless when facing himself. Seen perfectly in the animated series when he wakes in a perfect reality with a loving family. And in the movie Mask Of The Phantasm that Nostalgia Critic explains well when Bruce finds happiness but is struck by guilt for it. He's a perfect hero and people can look up to him for his lack of superpowers but he's a flawed and vulnerable person. A great conflict and contrast to his hero identity and personality.

[@XxiheartsupermanXx]

Easy answer: an SJW character can't be "problematic" in any way! Also, I didn't know the term Mary Sue came from a Star Trek fanfic, nice to know!

[@abryn6864]

What SJW characters in particular?

[@justincase9650]

@@abryn6864 captain marvel or iron heart (comics). I personally can't care less about that agenda but those characters made to push "diversity" are horrible.

[@abryn6864]

@@justincase9650 But like, in what way though.

[@diablo.the.cheater]

@@abryn6864 They just feel wrong, even if you agree with the agenda, it just does not feel right, like somebody is trying to manipulate you, manipulation for good reasons is still manipulation and is bad

[@abryn6864]

@@diablo.the.cheater But like... you gotta quantify that. Wanting to write a story about a woman is not attempts at manipulation, they just feel that there could be more women in comics.

[@frostyfirestar9709]

Good points but one thing: Anakin wasn’t a full may sue, he just was in episode 1. After episode 2 people acknowledge him as gifted, but annoying, hot headed, emotionally-driven and other faults. He’s still OP but he definitely has major flaws and characters in the movies and clone wars series dislike him because of it.

[@DarkwingsDesending]

Right, I agree with that. He had a LOT of issues and flaws.

[@elmohead]

SJW Sue: I'm the most powerful being ever! Saitama: hold my wig...

[@arkhamasylum8972]

Superman, sentry, thanos, darkseid, chaos king, shaggy, ect: Are we a joke to you?

[@pedrodarosamello64]

I know this was a joke but Saitama is a great example on how to handle perfect characters, unlike Mary Sues Saitama realises how he's so good that there's not even a challenge, and that is his struggle, boredon and lack of pourpose instead of the monster themselves

[@lazyking8246]

@@pedrodarosamello64 also it is a parody to op characters. That is the whole point. Without the humor it would hardly work :D

[@samuraijackoff5354]

THE WORLD!

[@michaellorah9051]

Saitama? I don't see Saitama anywhere. All I see is Charanko.

[@MunkeeFWRrng]

The problem with SJW characters is that they want an attribute (gay, black, female, etc .) to be the main focus rather than just something the character is (a sub-attribute). For example, they want a gay character rather than a character who just so happens to be gay. They allow no room for faults which consequently allows no room for development. The main reason why people love stories is not for the ending, but for the journey it takes to get there. After all there’s only two main ways a story ends, either the protagonist is victorious or they fail/die. Now, clearly endings can have a great deal of complexity but they all deal with either success or failure (in simplified terms). But SJW characters never have a story to begin with because they never allow for their characters to be challenged in any way shape or form. Excellent video with well thought out and delivered points.

[@joshuagabrielcatindig7607]

That is what Mortal Kombat X got right with Kung Jin. His skills are still the forefront, and his sexuality steps aside for that.

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

in a story i am working now i have two main characters and only one of them is going to become the chosen one, in this case literally chosen by the current choose one, but that is just a bait, because some actions will cause the other to also be chosen giving me the chance to develop both, one before he can be the chosen one, the other as a consequence of being the chosen one after he gave up the title

[@shianistorm3767]

I agree completely. It also ruins my lesbian and gay romance novels because it ends up being about their sexuality only and how perfect our (transgenderpyrofox) is and how the rest of the world is wrong for not understanding the sexual iner workings of an attack appache hellicopter. I just want good stories guys.

[@postman6553]

cough cough winter moon cough cough

[@Famalamri]

So what do you think of something like Into the Spiderverse (assuming you saw it)? Would you class Miles as an SJW character because he's black? Is he perfect? Does he have no development? If you have seen the movie then you might want to rethink the whole evil SJW thing. It's OK to have someone that isn't straight or white as your MC. Obviously, for things like Star Wars I think it could've been done much better, but people seem to want to focus on Rey being an SJW Mary Sue or whatever instead of poor development thanks to the writers. If you saw Predator then you could pick at that mess of a plot for hours, but for some reason the people looking out for Mary Sues disappear (even though Mary Sues don't just have to be females). Anyway, sorry for rambling, but I would like to know your thoughts.

[@adiveler]

I divide content creators into three categories: The Passionists: The kind that really wants to make good stuff (tell a good story, make a fun and challenging game, and etc.). The Greedy: The kind that just googles what's currently popular, in order to attract the widest range of audience (Such as making a children's movie with a lot of obnoxious fart jokes). The Political Agendaists: The kind that doesn't care about both quality or quantity; they mostly care about expressing their ideology in any possible way - whenever they are dealing with something new or making changes in an already established IP.

[@pearl8246]

I would say Disney turning the latest Star Wars movies into the mess it is now wasn't an act of a company with a political agenda, but an act of a company that backed individuals who DO have a political agenda because Disney has an agenda of their own, a financial agenda. This is just my opinion and I'm also no expert on the matter, but I think Disney can see that feminism and social justice are on the rise and Disney, being a being a greedy company, are trying to stay relevant. This tactic ensures that their company doesn't fade out of memory and thus keeps the money coming in. At least Disney knows now that they fucked up, and I hope they learn what they can from it. I think it would be best though that big, multi-billion dollar companies like Disney should stay out of what was once, to use your words, "a passionist" franchise. The fans can tell when it's not real Disney, stick to children's movies if you don't want your reputation ruined.

[@scottruppert278]

Sounds more like a process of eventuality, tbh. lol. Like First is passion, second is greed, then when the fortune is made comes the political grandstanding.

[@the_katzy]

I'm not trying to sound like a huge egotist, but I think I'm a Passionist. When I write a story (or fanfiction for that matter), I usually try to come up with a plot that forces the protagonist to have to be resourceful or brave, even when on the inside, they feel like they might throw up from the pure stress and fear they're feeling. One of my characters, Augusto, is a usually calm and collected guy who's got most stuff figured out. But when he gets powers, it throws a wrench in how he thought of his life, and now he has to deal with typical regular life, *and* villains trying to assassinate certain people, overthrow others for political influence (I never really liked the 'I'm going to take over the world because I'm evil!' type of villain. On the rare occasions where my villains *do* want to take over an area, it's primarily because the people of the area treated them like trash in the past, and the villain is fucked up that he wants to return the favor.), and also the potential hazards that could come from *using* his powers, which include losing his sanity, breaking a few bones, and all of his ties to his city (family and friends). Because of all this, his weaknesses are much more exposed. He's much more irritable, impulsive, and even meaner. The whole story is him learning how to deal with all of this. One of my other stories is of Aiden, a typical sixteen year old who attends a high school. Basically, he's a prince from another realm, put in there after his mother (who isn't an SJW moron) had to kill his father. Now, he's brought back to his realm because the queen is dying and the whole of the Western Isles is on the verge of civil war, which could potentially kill millions and wipe out kingdoms. His job is to stop that while having no prior training at all.

[@sockshandle]

@@pearl8246 hopefully Disney draws a line where the founder of said company would never cross [aka Communism] otherwise Walt will be rolling In his grave

[@murphyjack90]

Passionists made Cobra Kai. Greedy made the Emoji Movie. Political Agenda people made the new Star Wars films.

[@crayonberry2123]

Yes, I can justify my hatred for the sequels. The sequels made the prequels look like Jesus made them. And I also think that Finn was a great concept, but due to Rey and bad writing, he's a missed opportunity

[@elizabeth3555]

My poor Finn. They did him dirty.

[@OtisCluck]

Also because of Chinese money, China hates black people

[@t.r2603]

One of the best tell-tells of a Mary Sue? They almost never get hurt. Look at Ray, she never takes major damage save for minor cuts or bruises that are really just ways to make her look 'macho', stuff like limbs getting removed (Luke or Anakin) or crippling injuries like glass in the feet (John McClain Die Hard) or a Broke Ribs and other bones (The Black Mamba) she will somehow avoid while her enemies will look like the just went through all seven beaches on Normandy during D-Day.

[@emmapopovic-bogdanich1991]

I think that it also applies to non-physical wounds, like mental, social, emotional, and spiritual (though they are too artificial to have a spirit). Their SO cheated on them? They just get revenge on him. All the traumatic shit in their backstory? They complain about it all the time, but they don't have any mental illnesses, pathos, alienation, or anything. They lose something important? Well, they just get a better version of it later. Even rape does nothing, because while they manage to actually make a rape victim look whiny, all it takes for them to stop complaining is to have sex with the guy they've been crushing on, and then they forget.

[@aldebaran2643]

@@emmapopovic-bogdanich1991 Do not agree, Korra got plenty of shit, and IS a Mary Sue. However, if they do not (or just barely) change despite traumatic experiences, then it IS a major red flag.

[@xaxaxaxaax]

Main characters in action movies rarely get hurt, especially in children's movies lol. Nice mental gymnastics though

[@s.sradon9782]

In my stories, injuries are brutal, because it's fun to imagine your main character suffer in endless agony!

[@t.r2603]

@@aldebaran2643 I'd call Korra a rare instance of the writers realizing she was a Sue by the first two seasons, as whatever injuries she recieved seemed to barely affect her, and course correcting her in season 3 and 4 which many argue are the best seasons as many of her more sue like traits fall back and we are given a more intresting and dynamic character out of Korra and her struggle after the trauma of season 3.

[@AoAnli]

What I hate about the Mary-Sue SJW character mentality that you described is that not only does it create unrelatable characters who are just plain annoying, but SJWs also try to shame you for liking a character who doesn’t fit their criteria to be a “good” person. It’s like they think because you like a certain character who has maybe done some things wrong in their life that you condone all of their actions. You basically have to explain to them the difference between appreciating a well-written character and actually agreeing with the actions they’ve done, which is completely ridiculous. It should be obvious that any normal and sane person wouldn’t condone things such as murder or abuse, but those people don’t seem to understand that concept. The best example I can give of that is Severus Snape from Harry Potter. SJWs are very quick to demonize him and think that simple character analysis on why he’s acting a certain way or why he did the things he did automatically means you agree with all the things he’s done when in fact you’re just providing an explanation for his behaviour. What I and so many other people like about him is that he has depth and shows significant character growth, which is important to make any character realistic and relatable. As a recreative writer (meaning, I write fanfiction in my spare time, I am in no way claiming to be an expert on the matter) with a decent following on writing websites (about 45,000 followers across all accounts), it has happened to me a few times before that someone criticized me over something as trivial as having a male character as the lead or giving one of the main characters a mental illness and it honestly just appalls me. Just because it’s fiction doesn’t mean it can’t be realistic, and in reality, there will be thousands of people who share different traits, different values, different opinions on all subjects than you do. I’m sorry that I don’t like my characters to be severely overpowered, I guess ? When it’s to the point that your self-righteousness to antagonize everyone crosses over to works of fiction, I think it’s time to re-evaluate where your priorities stand. Yes, representation is important, but it seriously puts people off of doing it when the representation you’re asking for basically means that you want all minorities to be a good person. Because god forbid there is an evil POC or LGBT character ANYWHERE, because those people don’t exist in real life as well, right ? I consider myself to be very liberal but SJWs are honestly too much. They make all of us look bad.

[@theNightDice]

Thank you, you hit the nail on the head. I think what you describe comes in big parts from the "not with us means against us" black and white kind of mindset that a lot of SJWs have and like to apply. There are few things that draw me to a story like a well-developed character's journey, but in recent years it feels like a lot of writers, especially on big TV/movie productions are too afraid to write that, because they fear drawing the hate mob to them if they write a flawed [insert demographic SJWs care about] character. I have great respect for the writers who don't bend their creative vision to appeal to some people screaming murder, because it's usually their stories that have well-rounded characters and an enjoyable, not 100% predictable story. I can't understand how these people think that a story with a flawless character isn't just boring and predictable. It might be interesting if you put a twist on it and have a character who is almost flawless, except that they consider their flawlessness a flaw. But that would require a character reflecting on their behaviour, and that, too, is becoming increasingly rare. SJWs act like having flaws and being relatable and, y'know, human is only acceptable when the character is a white male. Which ironically makes those characters more enjoyable than the rest. Shooting themselves in the foot once again. On a different note but related to your comment: you mentioned that you write fanfiction, what kinds? If there's a universe I enjoy among them, I definitely want to check your stories out. It's really time consuming to find fanfiction that isn't full of overpowered characters or really awkward self-inserts and you sound like you don't do either of those things (or at least not a lot). If you don't mind me asking. :D

[@AoAnli]

Zerodayz Tbh as a woman of color myself, I’m more offended by characters who are supposed to represent me being essentially ‘perfect’ in the eyes of an SJW rather than flawed and human. Which is ironic because isn’t the point of them asking for inclusion for people like me to be able to ‘finally’ relate to a character after being ‘forced’ to relate to white characters for so long ? It’s like they think just because a character looks like me that I’m automatically going to like and relate to them even if their personalities are completely bland. And to answer your question, I like to write about darker subjects (never really been one for romance), so I usually go for subjects like psychological thrillers and horror and touch on subjects like mental illness or the effects that a traumatic experience can have on a person. I also recently got into the fantastic and paranormal genres. However, I haven’t started writing any of them in English because I don’t think my current level in the English language would allow me to write a coherent story, so currently all of those stories only exist in French, ahahah But thank you for your comment. I was lowkey worried the only replies I would get (if I did get any) would be from SJWs screaming at me that I’m a traitor who suffers from internalized racism or some bullshit like that lmao

[@theNightDice]

​@@AoAnli Yes, I can see how that would be upsetting. What kind of bothers me about that whole thing is that I've noticed that I developed a reflexive urge to disagree with someone mentioning inclusion and broader representation of minorities simply because I associate these words with the SJW idea of that by now and I hate their idea of it. I don't care about skin color or gender of a character, I just want a well-written character, but I understand why some people ask for more representation. I just really don't like the SJWs idea of representation, because those characters usually suck big time. Oh, alright then. Your themes sound really nice though. I'm currently trying to learn French, but since I have to do it on my own and in my free time when I don't have to study for university, progress is slow. I might get back to looking for your stories once I am confident that I can actually start reading more complicated stuff haha

[@sylvi--5517]

Zerodayz Oh you’re learning French? I’m learning French too

[@TheSameYellowToy]

I think a lot of SJWs either a.) can't tell the difference between "I think X is a really interesting and well-written character" and "I look up to X and want to be like them", or b.) have seen so many fans of certain media glorify, romanticize, and look up to characters who are villains, antiheroes, or just assholes, to the point that SJWs get defensive because they think you're idolizing them.

[@theknightsofawesomeness2701]

I completely agree with you. After all, I find the journey more interesting than the ending

[@LiteratureDevil]

Same here. There are really only a handful of endings you can have...the biggest two being: the heroes won and the heroes lost. It's the journey that's always different. Even if it's a remake or a parody of something else - the journey still has its differences. To me, that's the most interesting part.

[@immikeurnot]

That makes me think of one movie in particular, because the non-linear way the story unfolds, it ends up not really having an "ending" in the classic sense. Maybe that's why I love Pulp Fiction so much...

[@panlis6243]

Well the ending can be interesting but only with a good journey. A good ending can highlight how the characters have changed and how much they differ from who they were at the beginning

[@stoonersan2707]

When my father asked me why I hadn't taken over the world yet, even though I spend every waking moment plotting world domination I told him, "it's the journey not the destination, Dad!" He responded by calling me a lazy, hippy. I have come to realize that a story is not at its best when it is still missing key elements (duh). It is the journey and the destination that makes a story great. Until I actually take over the world I am neither hero nor villain, I'm either an anti-hero or comic relief. All that said, yes the emphasis should be on the journey not the destination. Cheers mate!

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

@@immikeurnot the movie was edited that way so everybody would have a happy ending, even the ones who died

[@neutronalchemist3241]

Short answer. Because a Mary Sue is a power fantasy of an author. A SJW main character is a power fantasy of a group of people. The first one has no flaws because amateur writers don't like describe their flaws. The second one has no flaws because flaws would be disrespectful to the group of people the character represent.

[@LMayer-uh1sz]

I stumbled randomly on this video, and I'm really glad I did. It's very well put together and thought out. And you're correct, the reason people hate the SJW characters so much is because there's no journey involved. They're written to be "perfect", and thus never really suffer any significant loss, or setback. The SJW writers in Marvel have no concept of how to write a good story, because the villains they put their heroes up against get knocked over with about as much effort as someone tries not to blink for a couple seconds. Usually in one page, sometimes in a single panel. Then they go back to whinging about social justice issues, which nobody wants to read about. I think much of it stems from the fact that the SJW people simply aren't very creative. They'd rather just slap a new coat of paint on something and call it "ours" rather than have to work to build up a new character, because that takes too much time, effort, and investment. There was an interview with Stan Lee a while back where the author asked him "Well, why CAN'T you just make Peter Parker black, or hispanic? It would make him a lot more diverse!" Stan's reply was "Because there's no reason to. Just like I wouldn't turn Black Panther randomly into a Swiss guy. My suggestion would be to create your own character, establish your own legacy." The response was "But that's HAAAARD!" and then started badmouthing him as "a racist". It was sickening.

[@Underworlder5]

i have created and developed roughly 8 characters (some of them are not on paper though). creating one character is not that hard. make a setting, create an empty role, put a character in that role, then flesh out their backstory, personality and motives. put some of yourself in the character if that makes the job easier. i found it helps with self reflection too

[@egomegayolo4127]

Oh God, that last statement about Stan Lee just hurts considering recent events. What is wrong with those people?

[@novantha1]

Tbf, real talk, I'd be down to read an Avatar fanfic about a "fake" artificial avatar whose powers aren't very reliable, and are slowly waning as they kill the false avatar with them.

[@achair7958]

Reminds me of the episode of Danny Phantom where he gets a female clone that slowly dies because she and Danny couldn't coexist

[@udhsids]

@@achair7958 you talking about dani? if so that not why she was dying, she was unstable due to being incomplete.

[@xxAntiOtakuxx]

I think a good Avatar fanfic would concept would be if Aang found out that his power was passed-on when he died by Azula before Katara revived him, making two Avatars. The second Avatar seeks out the now older Aang to train with him, but secretly wants to use the power to overthrow governments and so on and the story would follow Aang as he tries to stop the monster he inventively created.

[@stubbornwasabi3994]

@@xxAntiOtakuxx well the only thing is that aang didn't die per es he was just severely injured hence why katara could heal him

[@AlFoor1]

In high school I had an idea for an avatar fan fiction, playing around with the idea of the avatar being the villain. I thought of it being the avatar after Korra that was just completely misguided. He wanted to rule the world because humanity couldn’t be trusted to rule themselves, completely wipes out the White Lotus after he has finished his avatar training and just becomes the dictator of the world. I actually wanted the protagonist to be a non bender girl that’s good with machines and uses that to help fight the evil avatar. I even toyed around with the idea of having the end goal be to break the avatar cycle entirely because the world has outgrown its use for one. I think I just prefer original stories set in pre-existing universes rather than “my OC best friends with the cannon main character” plot. Though a fake avatar could have been a very interesting idea. Like kind of a false prophecy sort of thing that makes the real avatar question if they really are the right one. A lot of directions you could go with that.

[@christopherbeckwith745]

Another thing I've realized with mary sue stories is that gay men are written very flat. They're submissive, they never disagree with the main character or really any woman character. But once gay male writers and comic makers write a story about a gay man with depth, who is masculine or macho, who has flaws, who has opinions and is just overall a person and not for brownie points- 'sjw' media goes wild. Saying that writing a character like that is homophobic, or that writing a story about the gay experience that includes homophobia is homophobic. Because they think they have power to peak into any minorities life, they know what is true and what isn't. This leaves a recycled gay male stereotype that is just damaging and hypocritically homophobic. And, may I add, lesbians are completely ignored as a concept in most writing. These are just things I've noticed, growing up as a gay man.

[@dysperdotted]

woah.

[@Nempo13]

New 52 Harley Quinn is in a relationship with Poison Ivy. They become anti-heroes basically. I get your point though and have noticed that lesbianism never gets actually looked at and writing a strong gay male simply isn't done. Which is too bad, I enjoy characters that move and grow with a story and explore depth in some way. Everything happens, thus no reason to not explore it in a story.

[@christopherbeckwith745]

@@Nempo13 I was/am aware of Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy being together, and it's awesome! I wasn't saying there are zero lesbian repersentations in fiction now, just that lesbianism is highly ignored as a topic. Sorry if this reply comes off as defensive, I just wanted to clarify if my comment hadn't been clear enough =) . I agree with you, too! awesome reply and point.

[@ShaunDreclin]

Yeah honestly I just wish we could have some gay characters where being gay wasn't their core defining character trait. I want a regular action hero to go home after killing some supervillain to kiss his husband

[@teampenit]

Remember how the gay community in Hollywood reacted to Brokeback Mountain? The mocking, derision, accusations of being homophobic because none of the actors were gay? Losing the Academy Award to 'Crash', a truly forgettable movie?

[@D_YellowMadness]

I think there are two other big common reasons why an SJW character is a Mary Sue. One is because the character is a self insert for a narcissist who'd feel like they're admitting weakness if their character ever has to struggle or is ever wrong. The other is because someone who really does care about morality & has a lot of empathy wrote the main character as their idea of what an ideal person should be but they can't bring themselves to write anything bad happening to such a good person.

[@elucidator1277]

yep

[@KittenGoneBad]

I liked Avatar, he was FULL of flaws.

[@kateanddevinlindsay5478]

And everything was not handed to him like he said in the video. He had to practice and hone his powers with others masters and got his butt kicked plenty of times.

[@nunyabisnass1141]

Thats why people liked aang. A perfect character is something people aspire to be and will always end up disappointed. A flawed and identifiable character is something you are. Not only is it attainable, but it augments your inherently positive qualities and sheds light on your potentially negative qualities helping you work on those without huge humiliating experiences.

[@iljaradenkovs7150]

Kora wasn't a political message but that shit was still hot fucking garbage

[@psynthonia]

@@iljaradenkovs7150 you need to watch Kora again! It's actually pretty good if you think about it, the first book basically it's a war against a SJW villain (Ammon), a manipulative spoiled asshole only thinking in himself... sounds familiar? Sorry for my bad English

[@iljaradenkovs7150]

@@psynthonia if you look at it on its own its fine but compared to the first part? Yeah no its trash

[@cocobarbarian1510]

My goto character for this will always be America Chavez from marvel comics. She's exactly how you would describe a mary Sue, a self-insert character whose universe bends to obey her. What makes me mad about that character is that in her first appearance in the young avengers she wasn't a complete mary sue. The world didn't revolve around her and she had a personality and aspirations. She was more akin to black widow than Rey. But then Marvel decided to make a solo comic for the character (which the fans were clamoring for) and they handed the reins over to a young adult novel writer, who up to that point had never written a comic book... Suffice to say she turned the character into what is possibly the worst mary sue... She took a character whose ability includes: flying, super strength, and the ability to open up portals to other dimensions and put her in a fucking liberal college where she would often use the characters to get political, because that's what the fans wanna read. How the fuck do you take a character in the marvel universe that has the ability to go to different dimensions (which spoiler alert marvel has a shitton of) and you stick that character in a college? oh and just like you said in the video where all the enemies of sjw mary sues are literal nazi's, the writer had America Chavez use her powers to go back in time to punch Hitler. (which to reiterate again her powers are to travel to different dimensions, not to the past but her inept writer who literally got hired with no experience didn't know the difference)

[@devastatermir372]

Dhahahahaha, This story would make a great comedy.

[@SgtSupaman]

Squirrel Girl is a college kid with a tail and the power to talk to squirrels. She has defeated Wolverine, Dr Doom, and Thanos.......... She even has that chubby girl look of the SJW memes. She is the incarnation of an SJW Mary Sue, and I despise her.

[@cthulhutentacles4994]

SgtSupaman same

[@TheLakabanzaichrg]

Then she's revealed to be an alien donning brown face.

[@KissatenYoba]

Kellhus from Prince of Nothing. Rightwingers love him, though.

[@jasonc584]

SJW: Rey is the first female main role in sci-,fi!!! Captain Janeway: Oh really?

[@charlesborden8111]

Ellen Ripley, "Excuse me!?"

[@Matrix-tx5ff]

Makes me happy to hear someone mention her

[@jasonc584]

@@Matrix-tx5ff Janeway or Ripley? Both came before Rey and were better characters.

[@Matrix-tx5ff]

@@jasonc584 Janeway (I'm actually watching Voyager at the moment I'm writing this) - but indeed, both are much better characters

[@mbr5742]

Not to forget a certain "cute Commander" from Babylon 5. Beamter, Gid send her... m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2GkoJmhp8lqm7c

[@johnglennmercury7]

So, you're saying female SJW writers are lacking any depth AND any understanding of archetypes.

[@LiteratureDevil]

And probably any real human emotion.

[@thatsroughbuddy8742]

@@LiteratureDevil Hahah, funny. I didn’t think a conservative like you could have a sense of humor, but apparently I was wrong. You are a credit to your race!

[@trustmeits610pm2]

@@thatsroughbuddy8742 Odd. I was under the impression that it is progressives who have no sense of humor. After all, their whole "words are violence" philosophy demands that they treat everything as stone-faced serious. Someone's feelings might be hurt if you ever made light of anything. Progressives only laugh and crack jokes when they are being hypocritical towards what they claim to believe in. Having a political leaning does not determine your race though. Haha. Where the heck did you get that from?

[@mistersock]

I felt really annoyed at Shuris character in the MCU when she told Bruce "I'm sure you tried your best" when they were getting the stone from Vision, not only because this was really put of character for her and ignored her developments in the comic (arrogant and jealous of her brother so the Panther God didnt grant her his powers until after she humbled and proved her worth by saving Wakanda without them.) And it ignored that Ultron, the mega intelligence himself had wired Vision when she asked "why didn't you wire them collectively" but bent the laws of the universe just to make Bruce Banner seem like an idiot compared to her. She instantly, with no history or hint at development of AI or working with the stone knew how to fix it and simultaneously make one of Marvels most intelligent hero's look stupid while ignoring the history between both just to push a little agenda

[@morganfreeman9106]

Danlas the Scrub yessssssss! I just watched this movie a few days ago and that annoyed me and took me out of the movie.

[@hellothere2464]

Danlas the Scrub while I agree with what you’re saying about Shuri feeling superior, that’s her character - she’s rather arrogant and she knows how smart she is. Just like how starlord reacting to Gamora’s death allowed Thanos complete his mission - his character is overly emotional and quick to react. Shuri has more technology than Tony and Bruce have ever been used to because she lives in Wakanda and basically runs all the technology in the country, and she didn’t really succeed in the end either (thank goodness, otherwise she would’ve definitely been a Mary Sue). So I blame it more on shuri’s character rather than marvel themselves

[@rjhobbes6441]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/raCblK13qNNnmNU interesting theory to this.

[@LiteratureDevil]

As Diversity&Comix once pointed out - SJW Mary Sues are mostly all young girls who "wuv the science." The writers don't really know what science is...they just know their characters love it.

[@Archone666]

I have to agree with you here. By suggesting that Bruce Banner and Tony Stark (two mega-geniuses whose brilliance has been repeatedly established) were somehow less intelligent than Shuri (a teenaged girl whose accomplishments have mostly consisted of upgrading existing technology... like a pretty black skinned Justin Hammer, essentially), it actually made her less likeable, not more. I should note that I feel similarly about Justin Hammer - his depiction in Iron Man 2 was downright insulting. IM2 was about Stark's attempts to conquer his own demons, because the "villains" were too laughable to be a credible threat. "I'm an advanced weapons systems developer who doesn't know how to work a computer! Watch me break a sociopathic killer out of prison and then let him run rampant because I'm too stupid to know anything about the products my company designs!"

[@opadrip]

Basically: They don't know how to write a good character and are primarily focused on pushing an agenda rather than telling a story.

[@billyvonderburg7351]

*Fucktard Conservative Republican Alt-Right People* : "Mary Sue's are bad, stupid liberals and their stupid shit." *Me* : (sees the list of what a "standard Mary Sue" is) *"Sounds like BEN SHAPIRLAME"*

[@proposterous2808]

@@billyvonderburg7351 Ah. Found you once again, old friend. How's the copy pasting going? I see you still haven't figured out what a decent argument is

[@nicholedeerrock7857]

Bro the truth jumped out

[@Graphaeli]

+Billy Von Der Burg L

[@1003JustinLaw]

@@proposterous2808 Could we NOT diss people in the comments section? It makes you look like either a immature kid throwing a hussy fit or a troll out to grief people. Whatever beef you've had with Billy, take it somewhere else, the rest of us (I assume) are not here for your drama.

[@headrockbeats]

"The starship Enterprise is the flagship of the Federation, and therefore is staffed with the smartest, bravest, and most accomplished people in Starfleet. And Diana Troy." You, sir, win a medal.

[@mysteriousstranger416]

Too right. I'm sure Troy had her uses - but I have yet to discover what they were - besides stating the bleedin' obvious!

[@SubduedRadical]

@@mysteriousstranger416 I feel like it's stated somewhere in the show (by someone else who is temporarily in command of the Enterprise) that he'd never had an empath on his ship before, and how it seemed like Picard was lucky to have one because of the additional free intel it provided him in many/most situations. Not all, of course, and it's not 100% perfect (she's empathic, not entirely telepathic except with species that are and "open a channel" to her or that are really emotionally close, like Riker, and some species are immune to her lie detector, like Ferengi), but in a military sense, it's still free intel that is generally reliable when it works. It's like having an extra scout that your enemy does not have and isn't aware of.

[@whenthemusicsover6028]

*Deanna

[@headrockbeats]

@When The Music's Over - If I ever memorize the correct spelling of her name, the grief of my wasted brain cells would drive me to suicide.

[@JShu98]

Anakin is not a Mary Sue. He has very clear character flaws from the beginning (like his attachment to loved ones) that ultimately result in his downfall. Additionally, his destruction of the droid command ship is more a factor of "luck" than power, ability, or some other undeserving or undeveloped strength. A character can get lucky, and the command ship was a single isolated event. Anakin's other triumph, the podrace, is clearly developed (he is a good podracer with practice and experience, though he has never won a race before) and is explained in the worldbuilding as a consequence of his force abilities. Anakin can see things before they happen using the same instincts, albeit unrefined, that Jedi use to block blaster bolts with lightsabers. This is actually used for worldbuilding. The three main reasons he is not a Mary Sue are that (a) he is not liked by everyone, (b) he still suffers defeats for which he is directly responsible, and (c) his character arch is not only tragic, but failure. Initially, Anakin is refused training by the Jedi Council and it is only Qui Gon Jin who believes in the necessity of training the boy. Even Obi Wan Kenobi objects to training the boy and it is only through the death of Qui Gon that the others relent. Anakin is detained on Geonosis with Padme, forcing the Jedi to rescue him and loses his hand in a duel with Dooku (also allowing the Separatist leader to escape). Both of these are derived from established character flaws, as his hasty arrival to Geonosis is a result of his attachment to others and the recent loss of his mother makes him refuse to lose Obi Wan, and his loss to Dooku is a result of both ambition and overconfidence that is also developed throughout the film. Finally, Anakin is a tragic figure because he fails. While he is eventually redeemed an entire trilogy later (and arguably as a different character), Anakin's entire character arc in the prequel trilogy results in him being manipulated, used to destroy his order and kill his loved ones, and ultimately leaves him burning on Mustafar with only one limb. Sorry for the mini-essay, but the idea that Anakin is a Mary Sue is really annoying to me, especially since Superman is far closer to a Mary Sue and yet you seem to dispute this.