Why are there two German cognates for the English word WEAPON

Stephan explains the history of the English word "weapon" and its German cognates "Waffe" and "Wappen." This video delves a bit into the history of Germanic languages in general. ‪@loquidity4973‬

[@JorgeGarcia-lw7vc]

Great video, just that I don't think you answered WHY there is a difference. You merely restated that there is a dichotomy. So why did one stay conservative and the other one didn't? What is it a form of cultism/reintroduction? What is northern German influence creating a space there, perhaps due to some political influence? What is simply organic, with the conservative element sticking organically (why would it do so?). English has many double Germanic cognates, and often this is due to Norse influence, take cool and chill. Although one that has me puzzled is the name Thatcher vs Thacker, both existing. Spanish (and other Romance) have also such pairs such as derecho and recto, agua and acuatico, some of these perhaps remained organically due to efficiency of pronunciation, but countless others due to cultured reintroduction from Latin. Russian has this as well. So yeah, just wondering WHY (as in cause) do Wappen and Waffe coexiste, and why is Wappen neutrer and plural/noun looking?

[@loquidity4973]

I think you answered your own question better than I could. And thank you for bringing it up. In the case of Wappen and Waffe, since there had been no clear delineation until sometime in the 16th century, my guess is that later German writers, especially during Sturm und Drang (Goethe, Schiller, etc.) probably created that differentiation based on some romantic notion of heraldry in the waning years of feudalism (see Götz von Berlichingen as an example) to differentiate the symbols of knighthood from the gear of a medieval and Renaissance warrior. Yes, I should have added my theory and emphasized that it is simply a theory. Thanks, again!

[@brittakriep2938]

​@@loquidity4973: A small note: Der Schild/ the shield, but das Schild/ the sign. Die Wehr/ the weapon , but das Wehr / a kind of door in a smaller river. A cchange of der,die , das often means a complete different Item.

[@th60of]

Wappen is supposed to have been borrowed from Middle Dutch - which, of course leads to the question why they felt the need to borrow it even though they already had a perfectly fine German word. Well, the Rhine has always been a pretty busy highway, I guess. Plus, Middle Dutch dialects weren't only spoken in today's Netherlands (and parts of Belgium, obviously); rather, there used to be (and to a lesser degree still is) what is called a dialect continuum between German and Dutch territories. In fact, there are other words in German that exist both as the High German and the Dutch variant: for example, sanft (soft) and sacht (Dutch zacht).

[@loquidity4973]

@@brittakriep2938 Ah, das stimmt! Danke! Das hab ich übersehen. Das kommt davon, wenn man so lange weg vom Muttersprachenland lebt.

[@loquidity4973]

@@th60of Good point! Until the political creation of the Netherlands, I suspect that the ancestors of Dutch and Flemish speakers thought of themselves more of low-lands speakers (along with northern Germans) as part of the Holy Roman Empire than a distinct people with a unique language. If the regions around Dortmund, Bremen, and Hamburg had joined the Netherlands politically a few hundred years ago, this greater Netherlands would have effortlessly become one linguistic society. Dutch would be a little closer to modern German, but not by much. That's just my theory of course.

[@RoberttheWise]

Not sure if I'm doing folk etymology here but I think you stopped just before the obvious link: Wappenrock/Waffenrock describing a tabard embroidered with heraldry but literally translating to Coat of Weapons or Coat of Arms.

[@loquidity4973]

Oh, what a great point!!! Thanks for your comment!

[@joshadams8761]

The Old English word for “sister” was even similarer to “schwester”: “sweostor”. The modern English word, lacking w, is from Old Norse “systir”. I would enjoy an entire video on the High German consonant shift(s).

[@loquidity4973]

Thanks for the added information! An entire video on the consonant shift might be a bit dry, I am afraid. Let me think about that.

[@johngorentz6409]

@@loquidity4973 Even if you don't give an exhaustive treatment of the subject in one go, more on the topic would be interesting.

[@loquidity4973]

@@johngorentz6409 I am glad to see there is some interest.

[@HiddenXTube]

In Westphalian Plattdütsch the word for Sister (englisch) , Schwester (german) is "Süster". The old Westphalians were Saxons as well.

[@loquidity4973]

@@HiddenXTube Thanks for sharing! Very interesting!

[@SunofYork]

I was born in Yorkshire, England, in 'The Wappentake of Skyrack'. Once a year, a thousand years ago, adult men had to take their weapons to the appointed place and show them....... I used to drink in the Skyrack pub in Headingley. and it is still there...

[@loquidity4973]

That is so interesting! I've never heard of that. Thanks for sharing!

[@SunofYork]

@@loquidity4973 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyrack

[@loquidity4973]

@@SunofYork Thanks for the link, although it raises more questions than it answers for me. Apparently, Yorkshire, being in the North of England would have been an important part of the Danelaw (the area settled by Danes/Vikings). So, it makes sense to have some remnants of North Germanic culture surviving there. Very interesting. Part of me often wonders why northern England and lowland Scotland didn’t become a political unit, considering that they appear to have more in common with each other than southeastern England. Again, thanks for sharing!

[@andyalder7910]

Equivalent to the Southern "hundred", wapentake was an administrative area.

[@SunofYork]

@@loquidity4973 Well the Danes and Swedish and Norwegians have/had languages that were offshoots of German.. The North was weak until the industrial revolution where it was the birthplace of that. So much German remains in the North , eg "Think on" is very Yorkshire and is "Denk an" in German, so it isn't just the words, but the form of the speech.. 50% of my forebears emigrated from Hereford to the Satanic Mills of Yorkshire due to the agricultural recession of 1872 when they were starving. The other half were Summersgills from the Yorkshire Dales..... This name is derived from "Sommer Skali" or 'summer huts' of shepherds in old Norwegian... Norwegians occupied the dales whereas Danes were East of there.. The trick is to be interested in all this without falling under the influence of the skull measurers, eugenics admirers and Aryan fans online..

[@inyobill]

My German son-in-law's brother-in-law recommends "dat" in place of "der/das/die" :-D. Likely everyone here understands the Plattdeutsch "dat".

[@loquidity4973]

Thanks for that example! Good point! You are also raising another good point, the fact that standard German tends to be grammatically more complex or complicated then traditional dialects and colloquial language use. Thanks!

[@user-pp6fx7si4g]

Hund - hound Bund - bound Lunge - l ung Nagel - nail Segel - sail Hagel - hail Fehler - fail Kohle - coal Sohle - sole Schuh - shoe Pohl - pole Krähe - crow Habicht - hawk Enough of that. I just find the comparisons very interesting. Especially, when we dive into the still existing regional german languages, and then compare them to each other, as well as English. Oh yeah, I just remembered: The Russian word I was taught for sister, was sestra.

[@loquidity4973]

Awesome list! Thank you, Adalbert!

[@user-pp6fx7si4g]

Bitte, gern geschehen.

[@leviturner3265]

Axt - axe. Helm - helmet. Schwert - sword. I find this sort of thing very interesting. I am learning German. I have been for two years. I also find it interesting as I learn French. These languages are all very intertwined, but distinctly different. For example, bureau means office in French, in German it is Büro, and in English the word bureau is used as well connected to its French meaning. In French the word for bedroom is chambre which would be connected to bedchamber in English. English received a lot more French than most English speakers realize through the Norman conquest of England in 1066. The Normans were Norsemen that occupied what has today become Normandy, named after them. They became a dukedom of the Kingdom of France and learned French. This is also where things deviated from most Germanic languages in English such as the adoption of the word beef from the French bouef, and pork from the French porc. After the conquest England, the Anglo-Saxon inhabitants of England were ruled by the French speaking Normans. This started the love-hate relationship between England, and France and the changing of Anglish into English. Interesting, because we can see how the word England is derived from, and referenced from the Angles. In French the word for England is Angleterre. Obviously as one can see my interests are history, culture, and language.

[@loquidity4973]

@@leviturner3265 Thanks for your comment! I am glad to see that we share a common fascination with language and history.

[@brittakriep2938]

​@@leviturner3265: Chamber- Kammer! , cellar- Keller, spear- Speer, lance- Lanze, bow- Bogen, plough- Pflug, waggon- Wagen, coach - Kutsche, stick- Stock, pole- Pfahl (Holm or Stange in other context), knife - Messer ( in some dialects Kneip is a small knife) ,ox/ ford- Ochse/ Furt ( existing towns Oxford and Ochsenfurt!), dog- Hund ( but a hound is a hunting dog, while a Dogge is a kind of Mastiff), cock - Hahn ( Gockel also exists), hammer- Hammer, spade- Spaten, showel- Schaufel, file- Feile, pickaxe- Pickel ( Spitzhacke/ pointed hew also exists) . English/ Standard German/ Low German: rope, fork, little/ Seil, Gabel, klein/ Reep, Forke, lütt. Calf- Kalb, bull- Bulle, steer- Stier, horse + Pferd ( but Ross also exists) , goat - Ziege ( but also Gois, Gais, Geis), hare- Hase, fox- Fuchs, mouse- Maus, awl- Ahle ( or Aal ?), roe- Reh, pig/swine/sow- Schwein/ Sau, weazle- Wiesel, whale- Wal, bear- Bär, dyke- Deich, garden- Garten, door- Tür, shoe- Schuh, hat- Hut, cap- Mütze ( Kappe also exists), sock- Socke, scarf- Schal. Baker/ smith/ weaver/ fisher- Bäcker, Schmied, Weber, Fischer.. , hedge- Hecke , bush- Busch, to stirr- umrühren ( but in my dialect stieren in some context also means to stirr). But there are similar words, where the relationship is not seen on first look.Three examples. A) English hole- german Loch, german Höhle- english cave. B) English lake- german der See, german Lache - english puddle C) English edge means the sharp edge of a blade, that is Schneide in german. German Ecke is a corner..

[@BobWitlox]

In Dutch "wapen" means both Waffe and Wappen.

[@brittakriep2938]

In german fechten means fencing. In dutch vechten means fighting, as far as i know. Very rare in german fechten is sometimes fighting too, but the today rare used , etwas ausfechten ' means not fighting with your body, but with words, documents and lawyers.

[@BobWitlox]

@@brittakriep2938 In Dutch uitvechten also means to settle a dispute with words, lawyers etc. Something is being "uitgevochten" in court.

[@BobWitlox]

@@brittakriep2938 Similarly, aanvechten and anfechten also have the same meaning. To challenge or protest a verdict.

[@loquidity4973]

Thanks for your comment! Yes, Dutch and Flemish (along with some northern German dialects) did not undergo the consonant shift, as far as I know, with the exception of the dental fricative (English TH), of course.

[@martinsoderstrom449]

Same in Swedish. Skjutvapen - Shooting weapon (rifle) Flygvapen - Air Force (Luftwaffe)

[@simonkai5052]

Dude, you did not explain where the words really came from. Wappen with the unshifted -p is originally from Middle Saxon (prefer neither to use the term Low German nor Plattdeutsch), unlike Waffe that has the shifted -f so its a "native" High German word. Sometimes High German, based mainly on written Middle German Kanzleisprache around modern Saxon, got its words not only from various Middle and Upper German areas but also borrowed from Low Saxon areas.

[@inyobill]

English shares an ancestor with Plattdeutsch, I believe. I suspect you know better than I.

[@simonkai5052]

@@inyobill Thats true. And I know many people call it Plattdeutsch but please don't do it if possible, I want it to be a clearly distinct language so Deutsch shouldnt appear in the name and the word Platt has some negative connotation. Low Saxon or New Saxon is much better, i call it Nysassisch myself based on the term of Nysassiske Skryvwyse without the sk as it isn't present in many modern dialects of New Saxon including mine.

[@loquidity4973]

Let‘s just agree to disagree on what is the best way to explain this topic. Maybe you have your own KZbin channel and uploaded your own videos. Have fun!

[@martinsoderstrom449]

Why do you have to divide everything up into perfect categories? Clearly these languages have highly influenced each other. We are one folk / Wir sind ein volk /Vi är ett folk.