Why Aren’t Parents Disciplining Their Children Anymore? - Jonathan Haidt

Chris and Jonathan Haidt discuss why parents are raising weak children. What does Jonathan Haidt recommend parents do to not raise weak children? What should children be doing more of according to Jonathan Haidt?
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[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you savages. Watch the full episode with Jonathan here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZa2mamwrM6ciMU Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom

[@heidi22209]

The crank on confirmation... it has a name.

[@paulborst4724]

*Spare the rod spoil the child.*

[@justkiddin1980]

Man you should come to our house!! People say you two have the most well behaved kids they are soo wonderful!! Yeah because mom and daddy are OLDSKOOL and we agree on what we want parenting wise..There are three stages..Stage 1: go in the corner, Stage 2: we take them up to their room and stage 3 if they get physical and we have warned them MULTIPLE TIMES they shouldn’t touch something (because it’s dangerous) or they are too physical with us or their other two siblings it could be they can get a slap on the wrist…Just enough to “reset”..Comes without saying that is only in the most extreme of circumstances..And we almost never need to even raise our voice because they know the consequences..

[@GhislaineBeauce]

I recommend an episode with Stefan Molyneux about his peaceful parenting method.

[@pauldavies7720]

You need to make a video on the importance of risky free play in childhood.

[@Goshawk-zh2pt]

As a stay-at-home mom of 8- and 6-year old boys, I can tell you that disciplining children requires A LOT of time. There are days when I spend close to half our waking hours disciplining and correcting. This is part of the sacrifice required to raise flourishing humans, and why it is important to have a parent at home.

[@lauraquigley6403]

Exactly. It takes patience & time. A skill most parents don’t want to even do!

[@holyjesus8603]

@@11-AisexualsforGod-11. Why do you call a women who cares about her offspring a „Karen“ ? First of all she takes responsibility about her kids - which means she will not bother other people for make it easy herself ! A lot of women today are to lazy to raise their children themselves. Here in Germany they can bring them to Kindergarten right at 3 Month. At home they park them right before TV & Computers and later they are confused they are spoiled brats…..

[@mactireliath2356]

As a man who was raised by a single mother, I think it’s important to remember that there is a layer of perception that you will never have as a woman raising boys. A mother has a strong tendency to over-react, over-discipline and over-judge young boys who must express qualities of disagreement and aggression to properly develop. A father’s perspective and opinion on these things is essential to raise men into the world.

[@gardenjoy5223]

Hi there, another woman speaking here. When you spend close to half of your waking hours disciplining and correcting, you are doing it VERY WRONG. I'm a pedagogue with 30 years of working with difficult children and teenagers. YOU need to seek help Right Now, if you are not going to break those boys! Get them into boy's activities and sports. Don't hoover over them, for that is - apart from blatant abuse - the worst thing you can do as a parent. Please, take me serious in this. Unless you are also very good at exaggerating.

[@gardenjoy5223]

@@mactireliath2356 Hey, speak for your own mother! There are millions of mothers very good at raising boys! There are also many, many fathers who mess up badly. How unfair to generalize like that!

[@w.geoffreyspaulding6588]

Even back in the 70’s…..friends of my husband came over for dinner with their child….about 3-4, who in the course of events thought it was great fun to slam our front door …over and over and over………since the parents totally ignored the situation….eventually I went and held the door so he couldn’t slam it and said “No”. Didn’t touch him. Didn’t raise my voice even. Just said “No”. He had a complete meltdown. The mother took him out to their car because he was screaming. She was furious at me…..and the husband went along. They left and we never saw them again. My husband (who became my ex) was pissed at me and thought I was out of line. I still don’t think I did a thing wrong. I sometimes wonder how that child turned out.

[@mysticaltyger2009]

You weren't wrong. Unfortunately, we all know the kid probably didn't turn out well.

[@jamesmcinnis208]

I'm not sure I could have resisted the impulse to snap my fingers in my visitor's face and say, "Hey! Control your kid!" knowing that I was probably risking the friendship but not caring. ( In reality, I probably would have done just as you did and sat there stunned until I couldn't tolerate it anymore. The finger snapping is what I probably would wish I had done.)

[@K2mtp]

I have no problem checking my friend's children or any child for that matter. If they have a problem with it that is their problem not mine.

[@jamesmcinnis208]

@K2mtp I agree but some of us go through a I-can't-believe-this-is-happening period, which probably feels a lot longer than it is. You're right to respond immediately. That hesitation only serves to increase one's level of irritation.

[@MDCDiGiPiCs]

One slam of the door and I'd have told the parent's "get the kid under control or take your kid & get the fuck out."

[@HD-jb9ju]

"Don't let your children do things that will make you dislike them."

[@clintonparker4141]

A Jordan Peterson quote

[@fehyndana7725]

Words to live by!

[@katieandnick4113]

How sadistic is it to force a human being into this existence, which is objectively miserable from a human perspective, and then get angry at them or even dislike them because of the natural, logical, and reasonable reactions they have to existing in such a world? There should be absolutely nothing your child could do that would make you dislike them. They didn’t ask to be here, and while I do not blame any person for having children(I have three kids), I do ask people that they take some accountability for their so called “choices”. First, we sentence a child to hell, then we get angry at them or even hate them for acting like humans who have been sentenced to hell? It makes no sense. Life is not a gift. At best, it is a burden. We’ve done our children no favors by bringing them in existence, but our fragile egos can’t handle the reality of what we’ve done, so we blame our children for their own suffering instead.

[@cl5193]

​@@katieandnick4113Please, dear God seek help. You are projecting onto your children your misery. That will be their burden; what you are projecting onto them. Please reread what you just wrote. That is disturbing. There is no shame in asking for help.

[@bja009]

​@@katieandnick4113 Found the over-coddled child

[@freedomspromise8519]

My mother in law gave some great advice on discipline. I asked her how I will know when to discipline children. She told me to ask myself if actions of the child would be tolerated if done by an adult. If an adult comes into your home and intentionally goes around knocking things off shelves, repeatedly slamming doors, kicking you, calling you names, that’s when to discipline. Anything you would not tolerate from an adult is definitely not something you would tolerate from a visitor in your home. That being said, she reminded me kids are not little adults. They do not have the ability to regulate their emotions until older. That doesn’t mean they can get away with destructive behavior. That’s when the teaching moments come in. They need to know actions have consequences. Never burden them with adult topics. Do not allow kids to think they are the center of the universe. Give them age appropriate chores. They need to know how to do every day life. We taught our kids how to cook basic things starting at age 3. Kids want to learn. Teach them. These people saying chores and cleaning are abuse…get out. Kids never having accountability is why these now adults are behaving the way they do.

[@purpleflows5680]

Your MIL sounds wise. You’re blessed to have been able to ask her for advice and receive wisdom in return.

[@2okaycola]

This

[@kimberlya1618]

Yes! As a teacher, yes! It amazes me when parents complain about their child having natural consequences at school after our repeated attempts to teach them what may happen….As a parent, I am grateful that my partner and I are together. It’s so hard to be consistent when we are the only one. Partnership with family unit is so important in raising our children.

[@josephmasongsong11]

For the lack of a better analogy, a disciplined dog is a happy a dog

[@Puzzlesocks]

There is plenty of debate about age appropriateness. We could also talk about what level of control is proper, because "you are doing something I dislike so I am going to force you to stop" is a very dangerous game. This isn't saying I really disagree with what is being said, but I think it's more complicated.

[@korab.23]

My high school latin teacher made us repeat this: "Life isn't fair, nobody owes you anything."

[@shasmi93]

Yep. Latina families tend to be the Americans I want to see. Hard working, respectful, and disciplined people. This check out with your story.

[@marylamb6063]

Children are lacking independent play time outdoors. This has led to children growing up anxious, unsocial, and frustrated.

[@chasethehorizonx]

This is so important.

[@user-xm4wk1hk6c]

I believe this anxiety primarily stems from lack of dual parental stability from a wholesome marriage. The amount of teenagers I know from divorced parents, step siblings, single mothers…it’s an epidemic. Commuting from household to household or their parents new dating partners. Brutal! When I was growing up I knew one girl whose parents divorced. One. Now it’s super common which has completely altered the dynamic of our society.

[@azurephoenix9546]

There's no one to play with. Everyone is inside playing video games. My kids will invite friends to come over and play in the club house they built and those kids will say no bc the wifi doesn't reach the club house. 😒

[@Debbie-henri]

Ah, I don't think so. My son was homeschooled, but attending clubs such as karate, science and swimming on some days/evenings and had a tutor for computer studies. But as I live in a very rural area, he had free rein to go run about, play on his own, walk on his own, play in a shallow stream unsupervised, build things, collect insects, tease the wild squirrels and rabbits. With regard to his schooling, it was largely led by him with regard to subjects. I insisted on maths and English, of course. But he wanted much more than the usual degree of science, environment studies, astronomy was his biggest love, creative writing, some engineering (including welding), electronics, computing and a bit of geology. The boy that had no anxiety issues has grown up to be a wreck. He's on medication now and has had psychotherapy sessions. He hides in his room, and would have stayed there had an employer not decided that he was just the sort of chap he was looking for. And to my horror, a group of weird young people online have been influencing him. I know he's sending them money or gifts or both. He doesn't listen to a single word I say any more. I believe his online friends are to blame, turning him against us so they have more control. Would you believe, he asked me if one of them - a complete stranger to me - could come over from Brazil, to stay in my house for 4 months? My son had told me he had a multiple personality disorder, for goodness sake. This was arranged with this friend while my husband was away in hospital. We didn't know what was wrong with him at the time... Normally, I'm a bit wary of my son as he can get a bit nasty these days. But I absolutely exploded at him and told him that no friend of his is staying in our home ever. Not even for one night. He argued, but I put my foot down hard. And all this from a person who was once so calm, so thoughtful and wise, so generous, so loving and kind, would talk on any subject, so interested and fascinated in how things worked in the world, a child that I wanted as much to be my friend as a son. Huh. They can change on a dime. No matter how they are brought up.

[@TheMarvelousMrsMarquez]

@@azurephoenix9546y’all near Denver? My boys will come over and play. We homeschool, so they still love clubhouses and playgrounds. 😊

[@aprilpulak5209]

Divorce compounds the problem. The parents compete to please the child and assuage their guilt. They opt out of conflict with the child out of fear to losing them to the other parent.

[@mussersbowsboatsandscience6610]

Your absolutely correct, oldest son at 16 chose his mom because she was a lot more lenient. My girls 50% custody, but liked to drop I will live with mom if you make me do the dishes. Things are better now with my girls, my 20 year old son is still alienated...

[@nightmareTomek]

@@mussersbowsboatsandscience6610 My daughter tried that argument once. Then never again. Parents talk all the time how difficult it is to raise a child. The only thing I found really difficult was conversing with the mother, everything else is a piece of cake.

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

A much smaller problem than unfathered kids.

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

@@nightmareTomekKids need real Dads. Dads set the boundaries and the rules. You’ll hear stories of kids staying with the lenient parent and then going back to the rule making one later. Or severing their relationship. Which turns them into bad grownups.

[@cedricwork1670]

Not just that -- if parents are not together, they are likely not aligned in their parenting approaches/values (it's already tough enough when parents are together and needing to constantly communicate to stay on the same page). When they're not aligned, standards/expectations are inconsistent. When one parent sees that fruit of this inconsistency, there's a good chance they'll give up because it's just so hard to fix/realign what's gotten messed up.

[@anneshirley9560]

I'd just like to add a different perspective, my grandma called cps on my mom for her disciplining me. So now, as a parent, when my toddler throws a tantrum In public, I take her into the bathroom, car or go home, and punish her privately. So to others, I might not look like I'm doing anything, but I actually am, but I don't want to lose my kid because Karen called cps on me. 🤷‍♀️ that's something I'm very scared of because we get judged when we don't punish kids, but then when we do, everyone has an opinion and a phone and end up judging you for how you punish ( correct) your child.

[@UnleashedGraffixx]

That's why you have to have the talk before getting out of the car laying out the terms and conditions of misbehaving in public.

[@mummanochef6674]

I have a toddler as well and going out can be so overwhelming but if they have big feelings / tantrum as you call it I think they are just trying to tell us something and it’s our job to help and understand it And we need to show them what to do not just tell them what they can’t do we are the ones they watch and follow the most 🤗 oh my grandmother did the same when I was little but nothing come of it was the 80s

[@proudatheist2042]

​@@UnleashedGraffixxI get your point. It's always best to talk with children beforehand about expectations. However, the OP has a toddler. Even toddlers with the best parents have tantrums and act irrationally..

[@joem8496]

If discipline is code for "beating" maybe that's not the answer either lol. Not saying that's what happened with you, but that's what it made me think about.

[@dove861]

@@joem8496Even a stern voice can be considered “emotional abuse” these days.

[@chrisdiboll2256]

I love Jonathan’s point about learning to accept injustice. I’ve noticed the practice of buying a kid presents on their siblings’ birthday getting more and more common. Because it’s ‘fair’. By contrast when I was a kid, sometimes my sister would get something and I wouldn’t, and vice versa. And we learned the lesson that sometimes other people get things that you don’t and that’s life, there doesn’t have to be a reason. So much of the modern silliness can be traced back, to some extent, to never learning that lesson.

[@emerystodden2522]

My SIL was born on New Year’s Day while her 4 sisters all have August birthdays. In a case like that, I think bringing a little gift for her as well wouldn’t be out of line. My children all have their birthdays in the span of 4 months, so the feeling left out thing has never really been an issue.

[@shaunamalo2308]

I think instead of buying a gift for the non bday child, take that child to pick out something for the birthday boy/girl, then they have the joy of giving and the grace to receive well.

[@emerystodden2522]

I like that idea! We have started including our children in helping pick out birthday gifts for each other and for parties they get invited to. Or they could help pick out some of the snacks or something like that for the party. My family is smaller, so my 2 cousins were 4 and 6 years younger than me. My aunt was incredibly thoughtful and would find ways to let me be a “helper” at my cousins’ parties since I was too old to really participate.

[@2okaycola]

@@shaunamalo2308 this

[@thiacari]

My kids have learned that at birthdays the birthday kid gets the gifts. They even think about their own extra toys they could give. Sometimes my 4 ywar old says "When I have my birthday, can I get this car too?"

[@aimeekova]

My grandma, who was the single best person I have ever met, was an orphan by the age of 8… she had 10 siblings , she was one of the youngest. The older siblings just took care of the younger ones, there was no foster care or foster parents. She left school at 8 and worked in cotton mills… met my grandad at 16 married, stayed together for life. Grandad was in the army, then a mechanic with his own business. They lost a couple of children young, then had my uncle and mother: my mum and dad divorced and my grandma helped to raise me from when I was 12 weeks old. I never heard that woman talk about trauma, or how hard her life had been. She didn’t sit and dwell in her feelings…. I never even heard her complain. She had every reason to, she had a very real difficult childhood…. But she just got on with things. People today have no idea they’re born!

[@deniseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

Same for my mom, never ever complained about being given away by her dad after my grandmother died. Working as a maid since 6 years old and sleeping on cold floors

[@whiskeytango9769]

I have a niece who thinks that no discipline is the way to go. She has a 5 year old daughter, and she is the most insufferable child to be around. Nobody likes her, my grandkids cannot stand her. I actually feel sorry for her, her parents are abusing her and I am sure it will have very bad outcomes in the years to come.

[@mordie31]

It will end in drug addiction. Have seen it time and time again.

[@whiskeytango9769]

@@mordie31 I know it will end in disaster of some sort.

[@aaronpannell6401]

I've got friends that do the same. They set boundaries and then give in immediately when the kid steps outside the boundaries. Their child is rewarded for bad behavior.

[@Patson20]

That's the way my nieces mother Is, they have split custody. At my brothers and my parents house there's rules, consequences and we challenge her. At her mothers she just play on a tablet all day and does whatever she wants. At first she didn't like coming to us.....now she never wants to go back to her mom's. A month ago I got her to play minecraft rather than watch someone else play it. This week I got her to play survival with no mobs rather than creative. She never wanted to because it was hard but often complained that she got bored with creative after a while. She actually enjoyed survival after a while because It was hard and she had to find ways to build things without flying and had to gather resources. Next month I hope to get her playing with mobs.

[@BunE22]

This reminds me of Dr. Jordan Peterson saying don't let your kids be little monsters that no one wants to be around. It will hurt their ability to connect with other children. The parents of other children won't want them around their kids.

[@joshuamorrison8332]

I'm an older man and I would add that it wasn't just my parents who disciplined me. It was a responsibility that nearly all adults accepted. The lesson "respect your elders" was not just some warm and fuzzy suggestion but it had actual teeth. If I misbehaved near any adult then they would tell my parents or scold me themselves. This has been beaten out of our culture by well intentioned idiots. These are the same people who claim that "it takes a village" to raise a good citizen. Also, parents themselves were expected to discipline their children in public. If little Billy was holding the door closed so people couldn't go in the store then dad had better handle it or someone would scold HIM! In general I think we would do ourselves a favor by not casually chucking out generations of tradition without careful consideration of how it would affect us.

[@wyzasukitan]

Excellent point, especially when it comes to the ‘it takes a village’ idiots/hypocrites. If you ever tell a stranger’s child to get off a table in a public restaurant or to stop tearing apart a display in a store, the mother is liable to scream bloody murder. However, if you spend any time observing social animals, ie. dogs in a pack, horses in a herd etc - ALL of the adults in the group will correct juveniles acting out or engaging in behaviour outside of the hierarchy. If they are out of line, they will swiftly be shoved back in - sometimes aggressively, sometimes painfully, but always because a member out of line is detrimental to the survival of the group. Mother Nature can be cruel, but she engineers survivors who are best served to further their genes and so so advance their species …I think we could learn a thing or two from that

[@mordie31]

We didn't chuck the traditions out with the bathwater, they were taken from us by design, mostly on your watch during the 60s. Granted it looked like they were thrown out, but it was done through very careful use of NLP and other psychological practices introduces by Edward Bernays and others. So in a way it was done willingly, but only because of the heavy brainwashing and Tavisstock backed programs like "The Beatles" band (a complete fabrication to drug out the hippy movement and destroy it that way; I'd be surprised if Ringo played on any of the albums). How can you not see that now?

[@tomocchii]

@@wyzasukitanthe problem is that too many people aren’t “correcting” behaviour of children but rather acting like over involved Karens who are clearly on a power trip. I would prefer they talk to me and not my child, because what a child is told will affect them for their entire lives. 80% of the time I won’t listen to their complaints. My mom always defended me on public whenever I did something bad, and wouldn’t allow others to talk badly about her children, and would bring it up later in privacy and tell us why what we did was wrong.

[@jayclark8284]

'72 Gen Xer here and I've always been that guy. Kids just do not FCK around in my presence😂

[@sunnywintermorning1941]

Disciplining a child in public is complex nowadays. Everyone has Google on their phones, and so they also have a direct line to Social Services / Child Protection. Some are quick to call. Or at least to threaten to do so. And everything is on camera.

[@GridSeer]

I would like to add that inconsistent parenting is equally harmful as permissive/soft parenting. When you have one parent who berates and screams at you for talking back, and the other who allows you to get away with doing nothing and everything, you end up going absolutely insane, because your mind is fighting against itself over what the "correct" mode of operating is ALMOST ALL the time! Speaking from personal life experience: Don't have kids if you hate your spouse! It will not save your relationship, you'll just destroy the child's life and your own.

[@kimberlya1618]

Yes❤

[@BloodSweatandFears]

Holy crap this is my parents. My father is a very strict parent, and my mother the extreme permissive parent. You are right it was very bad for me as a child. I hated my father and my mother was more my friend than parent. It’s a horrible dynamic to grow up in for sure.

[@shasmi93]

This is how I grew up too. To a T. It was very chaotic but it was the best for my personality. In my teenage years I learned how to lie very well to them and manipulate their personality types. I basically was allowed to do whatever I wanted and raised myself because of all this. I became a severe alcoholic from age 16-30 years old. It was all very intense and traumatic. But now I’m a 35 year old man and come out of all of it stronger and MUCH more resilient than most of my peers. That’s the thing about life. There is no one perfect way to parent or do anything really. People are so varied and complex that we get a roll of the dice and either learn to work with that roll or break down and blame the roll on causing our misery.

[@jq8974]

It’s all so crazy. When I pulled my kids to homeschool them, we entered that community in our area and it was like going back in time in the best way. There are still families who remember how to raise kids. ♥️

[@grantlong2636]

Totally agree. Our 12 year old daughter who's been homeschooled for a few years now has wonderful friends. The families they come from are equally as great.

[@jq8974]

@@grantlong2636 So glad to hear it. Bless you guys.

[@brialapoint2608]

If you're raising them Christian youre doing thrm no favors.

[@lupe089]

As a father of 2, my wife & her family (mother & grandmother) are ALWAYS trying to undermine, challenge & oppose my authority over my children. The kids will talk back to them, scream no & speak really aggressive to them, then when I come with a stern voice telling them to stop, they do it immediately with no hesitation. But then I always gotta hear about how I’m being mean or they’re using excuses like my son being on the spectrum (as if autistic people can’t comprehend discipline). I’d think they’d be appreciative that I can get the kids to behave when they can’t.

[@lupe089]

Update: we just got into a huge argument literally about this.

[@AS_210]

"It is usually futile to discuss facts with people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance." - Thomas Sowell

[@BeholderThe1st]

In my experience, kids on the spectrum need even more discipline because they have trouble with some of the internal mechanisms that other 'normal' kids have. Discipline and rules help them function in places where they don't understand the behaviors of others.

[@darlenegattus8190]

Your wife has a say, her children too. Maybe you should listen, you may learn something. Honestly, if you have a autistic child, you really should seek some help on the proper way of doing things.

[@lupe089]

@@darlenegattus8190 of course she has a say. I never get in the way of her dealing with the kids, she’s just always getting in my way. I don’t hit my kids, don’t curse at them, don’t threaten them. There is no reason to constantly undermine what I’m trying to do. All I’m trying to do is be stern & instill consistency in my discipline. I’m not unreasonable either.

[@misteroz]

Good friends of mine have a child who they claim has ADHD, like it’s a blanket excuse for his behaviour; I can’t help but notice that they NEVER follow through on threats of punishment. When my son is disciplined, he knows it.

[@NekoArts]

My niece has Aspergers and her parents use it as a blanket excuse to never discipline her - and she knows it. Anytime you comment on her bad behavior, either her parents will sweep in and say "Oh, she can't help it, she has Aspergers", or if they're not around, she'll say so herself. Whatever she wants, she gets. I think she's gonna be in for a very rough life once she grows up and no longer have mom or dad around to justify her behavior.

[@moongoddess1978]

A child with ADHD has a neurological developmental delay. Their academic intelligence may be at or beyond peers their age. But their executive functioning, emotional regulation, everything in the frontal lobe is delayed two to three years at least. They may have trouble with episodic memory, future thinking skills, following multistep instructions, losing important items, disorganization, perspective taking, situational awareness, impulsiveness, hyperactivity. This doesn’t mean they need less discipline and accountability. But what works on neurotypical kids may not work with them. They definitely do not know why they did a certain behavior. It’s more important to teach them the social skills and situational awareness. Let them clean it up if they got it wrong. Punishments do not work on children with ADHD. They hear so many negative messages about themselves that they think they’re hopeless. They are motivated by positivity and praise for good behavior. Catch them in the moment, good or bad. Set limits and correct then.

[@hiddenhand6973]

My boy is bullied by a kid like this and the school tries to get my boy to empathize with this bully. “Oh he has ADHD and is autistic” as if that’s an excuse for punching children in the head. Unreal.

[@moongoddess1978]

@@hiddenhand6973Yeah, the school has to keep your kid safe somehow. A public school is also obligated to educate all the students. If the special needs kid needs a special school or dedicated teacher, they have to do it on their dime. Keep documentation of this. File police reports if you have to. Good luck. ❤

[@polybian_bicycle]

Idk, I discipline my kid, but it just doesn't seem to have much effect at all.

[@djgroopz4952]

Man, what a difficult conversion. We know that human strength is built upon resilience training. However human efforts are directed towards creating comfort for ourselves and others. This creates the conundrum society is facing right now.

[@ayoung1]

Wow, that was very well put. Concise and accurate. Thank you.

[@benjaminwlang]

Progress requires being comfortable with being uncomfortable. It's a doozy.

[@adamrad2220]

Huh, that's a very good observation actually. We're willfully creating the exact environment that will make us worse off with everything except comfort. Which actually brings right to mind the “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times” quote. When you put it like that, it does make that quote seem even more logically sound.

[@aaronpannell6401]

Comfort is a paradox. The further people get from their comfort zone, the more comfortable they can be in difficult situations. The more people stay within their comfort zone, the less comfortable they will be in nearly any situation.

[@wayneparker9331]

🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯 You nailed it and succinctly at that. I have been saying the exact same things since I became a young adult in the late 1980s.

[@sdvanon1285]

I'm old, and I grew up in Africa. It was highly unusual for a child to grow up without a broken bone, or sprain, or dislication, or chipped teeth, as we spent our time climbing trees, swimming, trampolining, having adventures in the bush swimming in rivers ... When a kid got the mumps in the village, my Mom washed our faces, put our shoes on, and took us to visit. The philosophy was that childhood diseases toughened your immune system... 'What does not kill fattens'! Very serious incidents such as a bite from a venemous snake or hospitalization from illness were infrequent. Although we were taught in early school years how to identify water likely to be infested with bilharzia and other skills like that, we never did learn why tortoises managed to run away and never be found when we only took our eyes off them for a moment!

[@zoomby4380]

Dito....our playground was the Kopies and rural undeveloped local area. At dusk our mum would try to find us for dinner. We used to find Marogo (wild spinach) and cook up in an outside cast iron pot. Only vaccine was polio/small pock/typhoid....the rest caught person to person. Have a great life❤❤❤

[@stuwhite2337]

I brought up 3 kids. All adults now. Discipline isn't punishment or harsh treatment. It's just enforcing fairness and decency in a consistent fashion. Kids completely understand this.

[@smcb2202]

“It’s not fair!” My mom: “Who told you life was fair?”

[@sandrab2589]

Boy, I heard that line a lot growing up! And it's true. Life is not fair.

[@LauraReed-wu2ww]

"Get over it" That's my favorite one

[@BaiMengLing]

@@sandrab2589 life is not fair which is why not working, stealing and lying pays off much more than good behavior. However I am not sure it is the best way to raise children

[@2okaycola]

@@BaiMengLing agreed

[@2okaycola]

@@sandrab2589 people make life fair.

[@emiliajojo5703]

To learn tolerance towards frustrations (sorry just translated directly from german)is one of the most important skills.

[@franciscofredericci4081]

You are extremely right I think :)

[@rosc2022]

Yes, young people now, need to learn frustration tolerance. 😊

[@TheHeggert]

Yes, we call it grit at our school. And we attempt to explicitly teach it. But it can only be obtained by actually pushing through hard things.

[@Subsistence69]

I am extremely thankful for the way that my mother raised me and my brother. We grew up in a very “life is not fair”, if you get hurt walk it off, over reacting isnt gonna get you anywhere, just rub some mud in your wound type of household and all throughout life from teachers, grandparents etc my mom was always told we were super chill respectful kids and I think we’ve turned out to be pretty good adults because of it

[@miav7160]

Same. This is exactly how my seven siblings and I were raised by our single immigrant mother. ❤

[@Valerie-mw6ih]

Please just don’t die from autoimmune illness or cancer due to all of the unresolved anger and frustration.

[@petretepner8027]

I'm uncomfortable when parents are too overtly complicit with schoolteachers. That way, kids get to feel the whole adult world is ganging up against them. Home should be a refuge from school (though sometimes, sadly, it's the other way round). I told my son what my mom told me: yes, of course school sucks, it sucked for me too, but it will be over soon, and if you don't go now, you'll wind up "in care" (which is worse), and I might be thrown in jail. He completed school, btw, and is now a "maître cuisinier", or head chef to you.

[@AllieEm1]

@@Valerie-mw6ihthat sounds like a you problem. We’ll all fine here.

[@jokennedy2943]

I brought up 3 alone and it’s hard work. Old school discipline raises resourceful independent adults who have character .

[@harryv6752]

💯 🔥 🤘

[@nancybartley4610]

As a teacher, I can attest to the damage that overprotecting children has caused. Try to manage a class of children in which you cannot have a standard of behavior because a parent will complain about the slightest thing you do. I had a perfect little girl, behaviorally and academically. However, one day she broke a rule. (Yes, I ran a tight ship. My school was an "at risk" school. The only things missing that prevented these kids from excelling academically were high academic standards that were followed and behavior standards that allowed for high time on task for academic achievement to occur. So I set certain behavior standards that I tried to apply to all students.) She broke my fussy little rule. (This fussy little rule was actually the source of why my class worked, oddly enough. It was almost like be firm on the little things and the big things will not happen.) I gave my warning. She broke it again and I gave her the consequence: stay in for five minutes at recess. She told Mommy who went straight to the principal and turned this into a battle. Did the child break the rule? Yes. She did not deny it. Was my class always under control and on task? Yes. This little girl scored advanced in language arts and math. May I have misjudged the specific situation with this child? Yes. The parent acted as if I had traumatized her child for life. Children are far more resilient and they know who cares; they know right from wrong. We are not giving them credit. We are not supporting teachers who have a difficult job to do for all children, not just one or two.

[@chrispasson1940]

Teaching is a tough career. I'm just a grandma and i value people like you

[@JohnDoe-jt5lb]

Did you have a reasonable reason to steal that child's freedom from her? That is the only valid question here. Because it sounds like you made an example of her.

[@nancybartley4610]

@@JohnDoe-jt5lb That is a silly, nonproductive, looking-for- trouble question. Did the school, did her parents, did society "steal" her freedom by making her go to school? Did she not break a rule and therefore a contract for basic order? Should kids decide how the classroom runs or adults? I was an adult, attempting to ensure the largest degree of freedom and safety to each child in the room. Is chaos freedom?

[@tacticalskiffs8134]

A lot of this has to do with two parents working. It is a disaster if the kid is sent home, so they will do anything, no matter how damaging if it stops their having to assume responsibility.

[@janemayor9210]

As a teacher in the UK this is the exact same scenario happening in our schools - the kids rule and it’s chaos because teachers aren’t aloud to discipline them!

[@MrBartleby451]

How many parents do you hear, quite proudly, saying "they are my best mate..." when talking about their children. This tells me all I need to know about an adult when I hear this.

[@TheYaegerjeusmc]

Your inability to see any way that isn’t your way as incorrect is incredibly naive. You should absolutely be able to forge a friendship with your growing children without losing the power dynamic needed for boundaries.

[@ThatGuy-tx4vm]

Some kids learn too fast and therefore the "discipline" ceases to be needed. It is just the way it is. Also, friendship is not a relationship of no standards and no accountability... Good friends will be the people that criticise and advise you THE MOST.

[@tomsanders5584]

@@TheYaegerjeusmc I think that's what he said.

[@billmccafferty443]

Friendship is a word used all too often. Most people in my life are acquaintances. Very few true friends. And I will always be a father to my children. Not their friend. My job is to guide them. Not to seek their approval and be their “friend.”

[@tomocchii]

Shouldn’t you be friends with your children? My mom is friends with us. You act as if parents cannot be friendly with their children or that friends don’t hold each other accountable or tell the other when they’re doing something wrong and to fix that behaviour. The fact that they’re my parents makes me more likely to take them seriously. She never said to take her seriously because she’s my mom, but to take her seriously because she makes sense and is looking out for my best interest. My mom was literally the only person I talked to because I had no friends until I was about 7

[@publiconions6313]

One of the main things I've taught my son is how to grit his teeth and reset himself emotionally. Some may say "dont bottle up your emotions" -- that is the dumbest thing ever. To be a functioning adult, you MUST be able to control your emotions - thats slmost the defining characteristic of adulthood, especially manhood

[@airbourne2]

Also how you are able to perform in sports

[@rebeccashields9626]

I do think there is a difference between processing emotions in a healthy way and just pushing them down out of fear. Ironically, people who in adulthood have a lot of difficulty controlling their emotions often weren’t allowed to have emotions as kids. They were neglected or abused or not shown how to healthily regulate emotions. They were maybe beaten for having emotions, etc. Childhood trauma is a huge cause of emotional instability in adulthood.

[@publiconions6313]

@rebeccashields9626 I don't think it's that complicated... which is not to say it's black and white either. Most things in life are a trade off; finding a balance... but this is more simple than that. Good parents show their unconditional love for their kids freely, but they also do not unconditionally affirm all behaviors. These are not mutually exclusive. To "bottle up" does not mean "not have" .. bottle up means control or contain.. have power over. If one does not learn to have power over oneself, that person is defenseless to the manipulative ... which includes the gamut, from relatively harmless advertisements to extremely harmful Marxists who are openly admit what they're doing.

[@rebeccashields9626]

@@publiconions6313 I guess what I’m saying is kids being emotionally reactive is mainly caused by childhood neglect and abuse not their parents not telling them to suck it up. It doesn’t really matter if you tell them that or not, but if you yourself are very emotionally abusive or volatile that is what causes kids to not be able to regulate their emotions.

[@rrwholloway]

100% controlling your emotions is not the same as bottling them up.

[@gertrudewest4535]

Nearly everyone in our society is turning a blind eye and failing each other by not saying, no, and using the age old tool of peer/societal pressures. There’s tons of pressure to pretend nothing bothers you, toxic happiness, and the infantilization of the American citizen.

[@nozomi262]

Peer pressure has been renamed as "bullying" and made illegal.

[@danporath536]

One way you achieve resiliency as a child is by being tested in multiple environments outside the control and mediation of adults where you have to negotiate and get along with others.

[@Being_Bohemian]

👌 Absolutely right! Over-controlling backfires as much as the opposite, sometimes more so.

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

Did you see that story about the moms who come to lunch so they can step right in if there is any conflict whatever involving your child? Someone please make that kid an orphan.

[@waitaminute2015]

It used to be called, "go outside and play, I'll call you when it's time to come in". We fought, we made up, we invented games, we skinned our knees, crashed our bikes, etc. Rarely an adult would be outside, and we went our separate ways when called in.

[@johnsmith2221]

And lots of kids now don’t get to play without an adult present because people are scared of abductions, etc.

[@RobertManzano]

Really important to draw a distinction between acute injustice and chronic injustice/abuse. Some amount of occasional unfairness is good for people and creates antifragile strength, but CHRONIC abuse/injustice has the opposite effect, creating anxious weak people who don't feel confident in standing up for themselves.

[@hiddenhand6973]

Yup, people will learn to cope with people pleasing behaviors and cluster b personality disorders if injustice goes on too long. Our first understanding of God and government comes from mom and dads example so injustice at home all the time will sour our view of authority,

[@beverly9]

I have to disagree. I grew up in, what would now be termed, an abusive household. Mother was mentally ill. Physically abused her children (5 of us); look at her the wrong way, say the wrong word, sometimes nothing we did at all would set her off and we would be in for a beating. She was constantly threatening suicide (took an overdose) by putting her head in the gas oven; threatening to leave us; as we got older, threatening to kick us out of the house. Dad was hard working and put up with her. I left the house at 16, left my native country and made a good life for myself, as did my siblings. None of us is anxious, weak or unable to stand up for ourselves. In fact, I’d say the opposite is true. We are all strong-minded. That’s not to say we don’t have problems, but nothing that prevented any of us from doing what we wanted to do and achieve in life.

[@artawhirler]

A good example of "risky play" might be, for example, riding your bike down the steepest hill in town with your feet tucked up on the handlebars. Not that I would know anything about that.

[@alekk6956]

Or your friends bike and realising it has no brakes down that steep hill. Think fast before you reach the T-intersection! 😮

[@ThatGuy-tx4vm]

​@@alekk6956you have enough time to recite a prayer. That is all you need. 👍👍👍

[@chasethehorizonx]

You're describing a world that I miss so much.

[@brainfreeze1925]

Many years ago, before my wife and I had our kids, she worked for the YMCA and ran a special parenting counseling program. This consisted of a hired social worker working with dysfunctional parents. What my wife learned, and passed along to me, was the need for consistency, never allow the kids to play one parent off of the other, and if one parent makes a decision you support the other, regardless if you agree. (In the latter situation, you can retire to a private space and hash out the differences, never in front of the kids.) And another skill is to ask the kids, if the other parent isn't around, "what did your mum/dad say". They will also learn that you'll confirm what they said with the other parent.

[@nicholasreese7856]

Discipline is so important that I can't begin to explain here. We are seeing how important it is in real time. I weep for the future, but I try to stay optimistic 😊

[@classactracing]

It is important to discipline your child not only to make them better people as they get older, but so they can be happier. Poor discipline could also lead to lack of respect and not understanding boundaries. Raise your children anti fragile, strong and resilient.

[@kopicat2429]

We let kids climb trees all the time at the school I work at. They also play among large boulders and cliffs. Norwegian here. I work with kids aged 6-10 mostly. 1st-4th graders. Like our Inspector said in one meeting, "If a school doesn't have at least 1 broken bone a month, something is wrong." That was a comment he came with during a meeting, where the topic of all the restrictions we face these days when it comes to the kids and what they are allowed to do came up. The only trees they aren't allowed to climb, are a few in the middle of the school yard because they are there mostly for ascetic purposes, and to provide shade in the summer. We don't want them ruined by hundreds of children climbing in them. We got a small forest for that. The only restriction is the 1st graders, they aren't allowed access to the woods and the big trees. Gotta wait 1 year for that. I also see the effect of children not being used to rough playing. In the instance that they do, play rough, they don't know to hold back. Which usually ends with someone really getting hurt. But the kids who often play rough, are much better at limiting themselves and holding back so as not to truly hurt the other kids they are playing with.

[@hiddenhand6973]

Oh interesting about rough play! I hadn’t thought about it that way. I let my boys rough play at home but at school they are told not to. I feel sorry for the boys without brothers or friends to rough house with after school.

[@kopicat2429]

@@hiddenhand6973 Yup. They know to limit themselves so that the playing can last longer. They know that once someone gets hurt, playtime's over. That's how it all starts. It's not done out of kindness, but out of wanting the playing to last as long as possible. It's not until later that they understand to hold back for other reasons too.

[@Buff19]

I was explaining this to my husband after seeing kids not being able to climb trees or ride scooters at our girls meeting. We’re a scout group and at break time we all head outside. My (homeschooled) girls have no problems jumping up into the trees and swinging themselves down while many many of the other kids stand at the bottom trying to figure out how to do it or not being able to balance properly on a scooter to take off down the road more than a few feet. But then the same thing happened when my nephews all came to my house and had no idea how to climb trees or ride skates around the block. I suspect the long school day and overscheduled evenings have led to this. Most of these kids play soccer or baseball/softball, etc and are “good” students…but they don’t seem to be able to move their bodies in these basic activities.

[@BrentRodg3rs]

(GenX'er) There is a balance to everything... speaking to discipline as a form of correction, I have 3 kids, each responds differently to discipline (no surprise there). In the end, for me, it's what produces the desired result. I take their personalities or response to past discipline into consideration to inform how I deal with them. I'm not against spanking but it wasn't effective with my kids. It's work, it's hard, but not discipling them? That's not an option.

[@vanessat9309]

Underrated comment

[@shoutatthesky]

Spanking is for weak parents.

[@sadecoco1502]

I am a housewife with 2 children (8and 7 years) with one on the way too. And believe me, it takes a whole day of disciplining to get your children to understand. It is very very important that they know what is wrong and what is right because they will grow up and take on the world. It is not easy but it needs patience and consistency.

[@Buttonmstr]

There was a really interesting study that came out maybe 10 years ago comparing “dangerous” playgrounds to “safe” playgrounds. The dangerous playgrounds had metal structures, high swings, hard ground, etc. Safe playgrounds had plastic structures, low or no swings, and rubber ground. What they found was that while kids got more bumps and scrapes on the dangerous playground, kids had far more major injuries, like broken bones, on the safe playground. The conclusion from the study is that when kids were allowed to get hurt doing small things, they regulated their risk taking better. If every fall is cushioned and every bump minor, then kids were more likely to climb to higher heights and jump or run full force towards the structure because they didn’t understand the incremental risks that lead toward the big injuries.

[@ninavaughn2274]

It takes time and patience to discipline your child. You need to know when, how, and lots of time, patience. You can talk to them and reason, but sometimes you just have to say “because I am the parent.” So far my teen is a wonderful human being, but so many don’t know how much work it takes to have a child behave respectfully while still having an opinion.

[@rebeccashields9626]

I think the time and patience is the key issue here in America 2024. People want to be able to have both parents work full time full out at their jobs so they can afford all the luxuries of life and then still raise kids. But unless you are making so much money you can afford a nanny and a housekeeper no two people can achieve it. There are only 24 hours in a day and there just isn’t the time necessary to do proper discipline and teaching of children if we are so rushed around. And then you add in fifty thousand after school activities and overly scheduled days and the time needed to discipline small children is just lost.

[@llamalinguist3250]

I've had several members of my grandparents' generation confide in me truly traumatic events they've been through, and then point put that they're totally fine, then ask why my generation (as adults) cannot even handle the smallest of setbacks. That's gotten me thinking . . . hard. I think this is the main problem: children are protected from even the smallest hardship to the point that when they're adults, they can't handle anything.

[@sarahhale-pearson533]

At my youngest son’s parent teacher conference last week he was asked what his goal for the semester was…”get better at climbing trees “, was the answer…

[@the.nerdy.mermaid]

Lol I love him. Give him a hug for me

[@burnhamsghost8044]

I think one of the main reasons people don’t want to have kids anymore is because the idea of discipline is out of the question. Thus the only option is living with a little monster.

[@haltersweb]

When I first had my children i heard the term credit card parenting - pay now or pay later with interest. That became my mantra. Discipline should never be blown out of proportion, so based on the infraction it was most often a time out or a consequence of a toy taken away, grounding, or some such. I can count on one hand the number of times my kids got a swat on the hiney. We had a wonderful friendship growing up but I had no trouble turning on mom-mode when necessary. And no matter how hard (and exhausting) it sometimes was to follow through, I managed, and my kids managed. They are now loving adults who care for others, have discipline in their own lives and careers, and love the Lord. I’m very proud of them. P.S. my son just asked me this weekend (they are starting a family) how I instilled in them to never mouth back at me. I told him that from the youngest age that they could talk, if I heard even a bit of sass in their voice I would have them say it over (and over) again until the sass was gone.

[@hiddenhand6973]

Going to try that. Thank you.

[@jenniferbrown3782]

My mom did that for everything and it was such a good teaching tool (I’m 43 with 4 kids of my own now). You’d slam the car door - “hey, go ahead and try that again”. You’d slam the front door, “hey, go ahead and try that again.” You’d get sassy, “hey, go ahead and try that again.” Etc. it is SUCH a good tool.

[@Chillitz]

I once put my nephew in time out becuase he was hitting his brother with scissors and his time out was literally sitting on the couch by himself with his blanket, watching tv. The way he behaved you'd think i locked him in a empty dark room or something, he was so upset.

[@rrwholloway]

That is no time out. That’s a reward.

[@vidprodcts]

It’s not the pain…it’s the submission. You don’t have to spank a kid hard. It’s that he has to submit to you swatting his bottom. It’s that he has to sit on the couch and can’t do what he wants to do. that’s the point.

[@Chillitz]

@@rrwholloway Well to him it was torture haha I actually felt bad. He even convinced himself that he was hurt. Definitely strange behaviour but I assume his parents rarely discipline him.

[@ivfchic3316]

How do children know how to function without boundaries? Boundaries with kindness can be done! My daughter is testament. I refuse to smack, it takes time and repetition, but they are quick learners! Set the boundaries at the beginning. They are unmovabale (even if it inconveniences the parent) you usually only have to affirm it 2 or 3 times. Consistency is king! Life isn't fair and the world doesnt revolve around one single person. The quicker kids can learn this the quicker they can get on with being contributing and productive members of the human race!!

[@Boyhead1973]

I'm a Gen X and so glad I grew up when I did. Playing outside, learning how to be resilient, etc. Today I see a bunch of 'tender' children grow up to being 'tender' adults.... crazy!! The sad thing is that some of the parents are Gen X... I'm just baffled by how soft they are raising their durn children.

[@Numb_]

Come on Grandpa, it's time to take you to the retirement home

[@user-cl4rh1sg7g]

The Gen X parents ( who proudly call themselves the latchkey generation) are not putting the need of their offspring to become independent first. Instead, they're playing the victim that they were the first gen to not have a parent at home caring 24/7

[@Boyhead1973]

@@Numb_ ... you're probably one of those tender ones.

[@dieseIboy]

Millennial here mid 80s. I also grew up playing the majority of the time outside after school and on weekends and was taught to be resilient as well. Not sure when the switch happened but wanted to put my two cents in as well.

[@steveleamont]

@@Numb_easy baby girl. Don’t want you to get upset and wet your diaper. We all know you can’t handle stress.

[@cronelilith2830]

I have 9kids...5 boys!😂 I am 64 and I am not apologizing for disciplining my kids so they can healthily interact as adults with society!! Gentle parenting is so judegemental!!

[@BrandonStrugy]

I don't care what anyone thinks, believes, assumes, accuses, and feels about this matter. I discipline my son and he's a phenomenal 6 year old boy that leads his classes at school by example.

[@shoutatthesky]

As long as discipline doesn't include hitting.

[@jordanslingluff287]

My dad told me one time the world doesnt give a crap about you or what you think. While that may sound harsh once I understood what it really meant it became a means of enlightenment. Kids now a daya will never understand that and the freedom it brings.

[@OkTxSheepLady]

When I told my grandson that he almost fell apart. “No one in this world other than your parents and family care how you feel. Get over it”.

[@jordanslingluff287]

@@OkTxSheepLady Yeah I thought my dad was a dick for saying that. Years later I realized he was teaching me how to protect myself. Maybe your grandson will figure it out eventually.

[@15walkeen]

That's along the lines of what my dad taught me: no one's coming to save you. It wasn't as a child but as a teenager, stuck with me.

[@ethanetn]

I remember in middleschool we were allowed outside to stand in a field after lunch and i went to climb a tree and got it trouble for it. They litterally just wanted us to stand around in a field and do nothing. Idk why im posting this but it just came to mind when watching this

[@melhawk1352]

I blame litigious adults for this, schools are so worried about parents suing the hell out of them because their kid got hurt so they have to pre-empt every possible 'danger'.

[@helendancelot]

Does health care provisions have impact here?

[@Elemenohpea440]

Parents should think about the character traits they want for their children. Bravery, perseverance, honesty, etc. If that’s what you focus on, discipline gets much easier.

[@graceg3250]

Disciplining is a synonym for teaching, not punishing. Plus, there’s a segment of parents who’ve been convinced by wrong behavior analysts who say ignoring bad behavior is the best way to decrease it over time. The best way to discipline misbehaving children is by using compassion and empathy to meet them where they’re at and bring them up out of it.

[@jawneethecurious]

This is very good... Jonathan Haidt has always been a voice of reason. Reason, of course, is something that few now-a-days even know what that is....

[@SeanzatChimalley_MMA]

Answer: A culture which promotes neuroticism, the byproduct of a rising share of children raised in single-mother households and their attendance in a female-dominated educational system.

[@alaeacusmcfly4353]

We also live in the age of low-responsibility, low-consequence for the gender who are raising these kids.

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

@@alaeacusmcfly4353spread ‘em and forget ‘em.

[@michah7214]

Fathers are more involved than in the past with their children.

[@alaeacusmcfly4353]

@@michah7214 Says who? Liberal media? People have been repeating this for years but I've not seen any study back it up.

[@michah7214]

@@alaeacusmcfly4353 you think fathers today are as disengaged from their kids as in the past? My dad was involved with us completely but most of my friends' fathers hardly acknowledged their children's existence

[@niemi5858]

Back some time ago, my son -in-law was deployed to Afghanistan. My daughter called me one evening and related how my eldest grandson who was 14 at the time was being disrespectful and obstreperous that day. I asked her how she responded to this and did she discipline him. She answered that with his father being away for so long she was reluctant to really come down hard on him because of that. I gave her a blast and asked her why she was denying her son the same benefits that she was provided with growing up. I asked her how she thought I would respond it she had been like that to me. She shuddered at the very thought. I told her the real reason was that she was trying to protect her own feelings about having to exert some discipline and because of this she was short changing her son from valuable life lesson. I also told her that if she didn't come down hard on him then, what the hell would she do in a few years when he would tower over her and get worse? I believe that parents who fail to discipline their children do so to protect their own feelings. They don't realize the damage they do to their children and I truly believe that this lack of discipline is a form of child abuse.

[@moiragores1226]

I'm from Austria, and we have the Alpenverein (it's a nature & outdoor club centred around the Alps)... and one of the first things they told us on a family-weekend in the mountains was, they said to us parents "We do not want to hear the words 'be careful - don't do it it's dangerous' " - reasoning, like you said, kids need to test their limits and they usually know how far they can go! This was years ago, and it stuck with me!

[@Lozwave]

Tender children get brought up without proper discipline, they are weak and at the same time have zero respect. Raise your children anti fragile, strong and compassionate

[@lc86_65]

Have courage and be kind!

[@overtonwindowmannukesrlame5581]

Been fighting this my whole life. The entire world is drifting towards feminine neuroticism and no one seems to realize that the world we’ve been enjoying is a result of tremendous amount of risk taking.

[@gardenjoy5223]

"Feminine neuroticism"? BS! If you are neurotic, it's on you. It's not a feminine thing. All the girls I ever knew were roller skating their knees of, climbing high trees, trying out new flips in the swimming pool, etc. We stretched and we bend and we had a wonderful time. And we all became true women.

[@Aaliyashi]

@@gardenjoy5223 Well it's good you didn't become false women. But anyway I think what he means, or at least what I would say, is that it's nothing about being neurotic. It's just about the traditionally "motherly" care and desire to protect their kids being applied more and more on a society/cultural level. So society wants to wrap people in bubble wrap so they don't get hurt. That's what you would typically think of as a more feminine tendency, whereas as a much more traditional male dominated society would be a lot more openly competitive and probably favor dangerous and risky behavior a lot more. But really, whether you want to call the tendency feminine or whatever doesn't matter. It is what it is regardless of how you want to label it.

[@overtonwindowmannukesrlame5581]

@@Aaliyashi correct

[@gardenjoy5223]

@@Aaliyashi No, I do not agree with you at all. It IS important how you label things. You just agreed to blatant discrimination against women. That's daft.

[@Aaliyashi]

@@gardenjoy5223 no I didn't, you need to stop whining.

[@Vlabar]

Im Gen X and coach young boys at a "ninja gym".I have to teach kids how to go across monkey bars and do forward rolls. Things every kids I grew up with figured out how to do on their own at recess.

[@diazigy]

One practical consideration, is more households have either single parents or both parents working full time, and they don't have the time or energy to discipline their kids. So instead they rely on tablets and teachers. It's awful.

[@happytape307]

True love is corrective. It will discipline. And it will be misunderstood by the disciplined at the time, but it will be good for them in the long run.

[@lukeblankenship8424]

You even see this with peoples dogs. I feel like I’ve never seen more people my age who have ill behaved dogs and can’t figure out how to train them and have them in training course just to get them to not act like a wild animal.

[@Musumesashi]

Beautiful. Beautiful! This snippet made me think about what I've felt but could not put words to. So disgustingly important! Chef's kiss!

[@heatherjones5983]

Thank you for interviewing Jonathan Haidt. He's so wonderful and helpful!

[@gixxingthecommute3410]

I think there's a few issues at play here: 1) it's easy to get canceled : if someone else thinks you're over-punishing, a short, properly edited clip to social media will ruin your life 2) what i like to call the pendulum affect: our parents probably over-punished and instead of going to a more reasonable spot, they stop completely 3) divorce : any type of disturbance here means you lose your kids 4) karens : We had karens calling police because 12 and 13 YO kids were walking home from school (in one of the safest cities in the county) 5) conflicting parenting teachings: research has shown so many conflicting findings from a surface view, and let's face it, most don't read the whole study and media only covers the headlines. So most don't understand what's a good form of punishment and what's not 6) any black or blue mark on a kid, or even them complaining to a school official now gets Child Services forever intwined in your life there's probably more too, but I see these are great contributing factors

[@Guest-1000]

Hmm feels like this conversation needs more nuance (maybe there is a longer version of the clip). It is important to teach your kids that sometimes life is unfair, but the parent doesn’t have to be the one to implement the unfair scenario, life will throw up plenty. The parent can be there in those times explaining that sometimes life is unfair and help the child determine if that’s a battle worth going against or letting it be (weighing up the pros and cons)

[@bl3313]

I've never seen the point of a blanket "life is unfair" ethic. The logical response to that is "since everyone is going to screw me over, I'd better screw then over first." Most parents don't want their kids to grow that way. In fact, they may not grow up because people like that are often killed at a relatively young age.

[@Mikel_7595]

As an immigrant who lived in my native country for the first 30 years of my life, I can clearly see the difference in the mindset of people in the so called developed country to the apparently third world country where I came from. People here are so fragile, so hypersensitive and focussed on the minutest of wrongs. All the conversations I hear are about how something is wrong or someone did something wrong. When you are so used to things being in order and perfection that even slight deviations cause distress.. Where as where I came from, even if 90% of the things were bad, people use to focus on how to make things work with the 10% they got, have the attitude of ‘s$&t happens, move on. How can I solve this and get ahead?’…

[@lacyrussell6688]

As someone who works in retail, I can’t stress enough how many children come through and have no disregard for respect and manners. I watch parents who don’t care that their kids tear up a store break things and then just tell them to hand it to somebody who works at the store or better yet just leave it. I was raised when you go to a store you don’t touch anything because you can’t buy it and if I was to break something I would have to apologize to the store and there would be a consequence later. And these parents think their children are so cute and sweet and yet they’re a little hellions that no one wants in the store.

[@davidwhite8220]

I literally never disciplined my kids. Both of them 1) never had any temper-tantrums, 2) while in grade-school, came home about once a month with rewards for good behavior, and 3) never showed any signs of adolescent rebellion. My secret is that I employed the East Asian method: being relentlessly loving when they were little. You co-operate with them, they co-operate with you. What have the East Asians gotten from this approach? Ancestor Worship. And a tendency to be really too conformist ...

[@seancooper5140]

It sounds to me like you did discipline your kids... You just used positive discipline practices. (Congratulations, BTW) Discipline as a word means to teach someone right ways (like a disciple). The idea that discipline has to mean punishment is broken. (I.e. punishment can be part of discipline, but only if there's a good enough relationship and valid circumstances for the punishment to be seen as justice *by the person on the receiving end*)

[@davidwhite8220]

@@seancooper5140 I think that most mis-behavior comes from being insecure about being loved. Saying (or doing) "no" is taken as further evidence that "Oh god, I was right, mommy doesn't really love me", and understandably causes a freak out. Take such worries off the table from day one, and there is no problem. I got the idea from a HS teacher who was a solider in Japan after WWI, and was shocked (like the other soldiers) to see how the Japanese were ridiculously (so the soldiers thought) "indulgent" of their children. And children raised that way were willing to be kamikazes ... They were very positive toward their society, because their mothers (their first experience of society) were very positive toward them. They came to see themselves as valuable cogs in a valuable machine. At least that is what it looks like to me.

[@Thehoodphilosopher]

@@seancooper5140 Exactly! The mother above employed positive disciplinary actions, and it's nauseating to read the rest of the comment section conflate "discipline" with "abuse." Most of my schoolmates, myself included, grew up in rougher areas where we regularly experienced physical, verbal, and psychological abuse as a form of discipline, and a significant portion of them went on to become gangbangers, drug dealers, addicts, and convicts. Unsurprisingly, I grew up to be better than most of my peers, and this is no doubt due to the influence of my mother, who related to me in a very cooperative manner.

[@darlenegattus8190]

Excellent 😃

[@originalserpent1834]

I don’t think people have a problem living with injustice.

[@likearollingstone007]

I think they are not really talking about “people” but more about today’s kids.

[@alaeacusmcfly4353]

Lmao, is this a joke? There is a major riotous protest against some form of injustice in every major city every year.

[@dvanaestcestica1135]

I had a great, close friend from the uni, we were inseparable and loved each other very much. Then she got married and had a kid and for years we haven't seen each other outside of their home. Which I thought was ok, given the baby and all (now I know it wasn't ok). When the kid was like 4-5, I started suggesting the two of us went out a bit, just to grab coffee without the kid (she was a stay at home mom). She said she wouldn't separate from her son not even for 1-2hrs to sit and have a coffee with me, so the kid went with us. I basically spent a lovely summer afternoon sitting alone on a cafe terrace with two cups in front of me, because she was running after him as he wouldn't sit in one spot, disturbing the guests and making noise. At some point she tried to be strict and said "Listen, I want to sit and chat with my friend, you need to sit at the table too". And he threw such a textbook tantrum, like from the movies, all with crawling on the floor, beating with his fists and screaming with all his might. Then she said "Sorry, I have to take him home, he's nervous, I have no idea what's with him today". I dared to say to her that he looked jealous seeing her give attention to someone apart from himself and that was what was with him that day, and will happen again, and that it would do both of them good to occasionally spend a bit of time not with each other. She said that I had no idea what I was saying and "you'd understand if you had a child, you'd want to spend with him/her all the time in the world". I did go on and had two kids and I had no issues leaving them once in a while with their dad or grandparents to catch up with friends for an hour or two. I never saw my best uni friend again, and it's been 20 years since. I can imagine her 24 yo son now, a kid who was brought up to feel as if the Earth revolved around him, entitled to every bit of partents' time, attention and life.

[@flowermeerkat6827]

Loved your video!

[@seekerofthemutablebalance5228]

Am i the only one that can't unsee the picture frame cat ears?! Bro HAS to be doing that on purpose

[@obsoletecd-rom]

I met a woman who worked for a family in my town (rich financial hub of Manhattan) that said she was fired for saying no to her bosses child that she was paid to take care of.

[@bananapancakes311]

I’m a sahm raising a 2 year old and already we’ve gone through a huge phase of me disciplining him all day long. It was meltdowns and tantrums constantly when he wouldn’t get his way for something.....to me it was like, oh hell no....so the timeouts began and my boundaries got super strong. Now, a few months later he really understands that tantrums are pointless (although he is a toddler so he’s still learning to regulate his emotions), but the timeouts are rare now, and if he does need a timeout- it’s quick and that’s that. He usually just needs that moment to self regulate. I’ve also noticed that my son doesn’t have tantrums in public anymore and he actually stares at kids who do. Sometimes he tells them “no crying” 😂 like he’s trying to help them out lol. Anyways, I’m no expert obviously, but so far committing to discipline when you need to (even though it sucks) really does hav the best results for your kid.

[@ImYourOverlord]

Time out didn't exist when I was growing up. I'm glad.

[@helendancelot]

Grounded did though

[@ImYourOverlord]

@@helendancelot Restricted from TV was harsh *LOL*

[@JG-qt3pn]

Parenting is a roll of the dice. Good people come out of horrible homes, bad people come out of great homes. Do your best, feel guilty anyway.

[@Kwildcat13]

It’s a little bit more then the roll of a dice but I feel ya

[@debblouin]

No, it’s not. It is kinda like Hold ‘Em. There is a high degree of chance/circumstance, but there is also strategy (intention) and tactics (gameplay) that can influence outcomes more than just dumb luck.

[@gertrudewest4535]

That’s statistically untrue.

[@fehyndana7725]

It's true that children aren't blank slates and that some people turn out good no matter what but every child can be trained to behave and function normally. Check out "no greater joy" by Michael Pearl

[@cl5193]

True, but those are the exception. Most good people come from stable, loving two parent homes. That's just math.

[@mattchu.]

Parents should be authoritative and discipline their kids, but they shouldn't be authoritarian and tyrannical (overly harsh and unfair all the time). There is a balance so you don't fuck up your kids

[@artawhirler]

I just bought his new book today!

[@skydiver711]

Their afraid of going to JAIL!!!!!

[@lohengrin4009]

This is very much true, if your child speaks to a school counselor about an incident at home, if the school deems it necessary to intervene you will be contacted by a social worker, or worse, a police officer. The sad part is, today’s adults are convinced that children are incapable of lies and everything they say must be true. Even the police don’t feel compelled to find corroborated evidence that supports the claims. In my case, the police went to my employer and relayed a report given by my daughter that turned out to be a complete fabrication. I could have lost my job, and they didn’t seem fazed by the fact they ran with a story comprised of hearsay and embellished testimony. In fact, they told me repeatedly how “lucky” I was that formal charges were not being brought due to insufficient evidence. Sad, if you’re a parent you are a place holder for the state, they will remove you without a qualm.

[@joycebolanos4873]

Reading some of the comments. No , I am not friends with my children. I am their mother, it’s a different type of relationship. I do love to go out with my now adult children and spend time with them . They have turned out to be awesome loving and responsible adults. Very proud of them. As kids they respected me as their mother not friend. We would do sports together like fencing, read a lot and today they both like to read and still fence! Much love but the dynamic is different between parents and friends.

[@ericstephenson145]

Damn, you were the best fly fishing channel. Always motivated me to get out in the backcountry here in Colorado. Take it easy and all the way, Airborne!

[@kimj5037]

Well, I definitely feel a lot better now about my past parenting choices, lol. When my boys were young, I would do things like take them through a tree top obstacle course. While the youngest claims that gave him a fear of heights, the oldest has learned to stand his ground on many occasions, and is comfortable taking calculated risks.

[@dms-f16]

Balkan childood: climb trees, playfighting, running around with stray animals. Both girls and boys. All fun & games until mama/grandma took their slipper out haha. Didn't have a PC until 12 and internet until 14. Very grateful for all that! ❤

[@trebleshootingtrebleshooti9733]

The father who does not discipline, hates his son--Proverbs 13:24

[@ninjapixiemama4659]

I grew up with a very old school family, military parents, mum left to be a sty at home mum as my parents had 9 children together. She was traumatised as a child and had a very tough love but she was super maternal too so I think it was pretty balanced but also very hard at times. In all honesty when my life got really hard it was my mum's words that got me through survival. I do struggle sometimes with my son as I'm a big softie but I have to understand how important discipline and simple boundaries are for him to grow as a person. He's only 4 now, he's a big lad and very athletic already and his south African raised father hae been doing so much. Rough play so I have to make sure.he knows how to be responsible with that strength and size

[@johnmackey3937]

Boomer, 64 years. Parents raised 3 boys, 3 girls, 6 very different personalities, dad passed when I was 14, 3 kids still at home, mom never waivered, kept working. Their generation was different, 6 productive adults who raised produtive kids.

[@MasterMalrubius]

It's never too early for bro-psychology.

[@TimBitts649]

Humans evolved in tribes of up to 300, with low technology levels. I remember reading The Source, a novel by James Mitchener, long ago. It's about the history of the Jews, supposedly based on facts. One curious thing I remember from that book: Mitchener claimed that Israeli children raised in Kibbutz were a tiny minority of Israelis, but for some reason were a huge percentage of the Israeli elite....political, academic, scientific. I would guess this is because the children were raised in robust environments, with strong local communities, lots of social peers who acted as siblings, lots of moral guidance from religious leaders, a cultural emphasis on learning. That's the formula for success of children, making them robust. The Kibbutz seems a natural experiment in successful raising of children to reach their optimal potential. I know a fair number of younger people who are in their 20s, who grew up as the only children...no siblings. They seem emotionally and socially stunted compared to the Boomers from large families I grew up with. I don't think we are meant to grow up alone. I just don't think small families in isolation produce robust children. It takes a village to raise a child. It pains me to admit Hillary was right about that. We need to reorganize our lives in villages of common interest. Teal Swan has a video on that, in Denmark. You see this pattern in success data as well, for various American ethnicities. Glenn Greenwald has a graph on this. "2nd Gentleman to WEF"...11 minutes in, with the data: Jonathan's ethnic group, Jewish Americans have the highest income of any American religion, followed very closely by Americans with parents from India, in a neck and neck race for most successful American group. Why is that? They both follow a similar pattern to a kibbutz: Both groups tend to be "clannish" and are often accused of nepotism, looking after their own....that psychologically acts as a tribe upon the people in those groups, in my opinion. People criticize those people who focus on local tribes, their own ethnicities. This seems to miss the point: we evolved to be clannish and with a nepotism bent in the first place, other cultures should adopt that attitude. It is more successful and produces more robust children. Do what works.

[@patriciamoore51]

So wrong regarding “only kids”, I find throughout my life , I’m the one who speaks up for the whole, and so much more. Also, I wouldn’t listen to Teal Swan. I see myself as one of the strongest persons I see among people in large families that continue their dysfunctional roles throughout their lives just to remain an acceptable part of their family.

[@TimBitts649]

@@patriciamoore51 Thanks, sounds positive. We humans seem to come up with different family structures. It's useful to compare. My best guess is: we need to encourage different options for people, some solutions fit some people, not others. I don't think there is only one answer because there is no just one sort of person. More choice for people might help us sort this out. Recommended video: whatifalthist channel, "How Family Structure Drives Ideology". Cheers.

[@elizabethspersonalyoutube]

Great comment, from someone who also watches Teal Swan and Glenn Greenwald

[@mrnateford]

Children absolutely must learn 3 things: responsibility, consequences, and the simple fact that they are NOT the center of the universe. Also- correct behavior in public is not relative. We all know the difference between well-behaved children and monstrous spoiled brats. And we owe it to our children to teach them to be the first one. This only comes from discipline. If everyone in the room is judging and hating your child's meltdown, that's not their problem, it's your failure. Period.

[@JamesADavies]

Well said.

[@Mr.Boring_Man]

Influx of single mother household and those same divorced women as therapist, counselors and public education. No one says it. This is the result. Children constantly needing affirmation and validation raised to be sensitive and entitled with poor work ethics.

[@heidi22209]

Im a single mom. I can't identify with what u say. My boys are wild. Lawn darts are fine. Red rover.. Best game ever.

[@heidi22209]

But yeah I'm an exception. Most moms are annoying af to me. I don't know where my kids are all the time. They come home bloody at dusk. They are running a fight club after school. With some rules. Don't talk about fight club

[@gardenjoy5223]

You like your generalizations, obviously. There are enough women out there, raising their children well. And why blame the single mothers? At least they stayed! Where are the fathers? Especially in the black community?

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

@@gardenjoy5223You’re a wonderful teaching exhibit. The data against single mothers is overwhelming as a tsunami. Their outcomes are catastrophic. In response to facts, you feeeeel. And here we are.

[@nothankyou2.0]

There was a kid throwing a tantrum on the floor at the store, the mom had the “I give up!” Look on her face… So as I walked by the kid on the floor I started pointing and exclaiming “look out! Spider, spider, spider!!!” The kid promptly jumped up and into his mother’s arms, forgetting what he was throwing a tantrum about. The mom laughed, and said thank you.

[@NighttimeRhymes]

Woah. Brilliant points. I'm going to share this with my development classes. Thank you.

[@kezl3037]

I raised my kids old school and they are well rounded young adults. I was looked down on for being young and tough sometimes but look whos laughing now.

[@sugarshack5129]

Its too bad that Haidt made such a fool of himself on Rogan with that whole 'bloodbath' nonsense. While I agree with him here its just another person that I thought was solid only to basically scream to a massive audience "I pick and choose when I'm going to be intellectually honest''. Disappointing. Just like Sam Harris. Just like Malcolm Gladwell. When its convenient - fine - but when the chips are down they reveal the same kind of incoherent idiocy that they claim so vehemently to transcend and oppose.

[@saucyrossy3698]

yuuup. So many of these people that are traditionally left just can't overcome that final psychological hurdle. and they do it so overtly. its honestly weird. they seem self aware in so many ways but then....bam.....massive dose of the complete opposite. to be clear they seem to better than most but...still....its really weird.

[@sugarshack5129]

@@saucyrossy3698 I think its an ego thing. Or a self identity thing.

[@lc86_65]

What "bloodbath" thing?

[@tommyrq180]

His entire first book _The Righteous Mind_ was an attempt to understand how to convince conservatives to vote with the Democrats (the left) because that’s where he his politically. But even in that book he couldn’t help observing how many flaws exist in the leftist narrative. So he’s a remarkably open-minded leftist, but a leftist nevertheless. And let’s be intellectually honest. Trump elicits an extreme irrationality in leftists. They all do it (remember how vitriolic they were about W?!?) but Trump literally lives in their minds. It’s really quite astonishing. Of course the right also demonizes presidential politicians, but I’m unaware of one that so inhabited the mind. Maybe JFK-his election brought out anti-Communist and anti-Catholic extremists who actually thought our country would be run by Khrushchev AND the Pope! So it happens, but seriously, Trump has superpowers when it comes to inhabiting the left’s minds like some sort of demonic presence. Just my two cents! ☮️

[@sugarshack5129]

@@lc86_65 its a long story....trump said there would be a 'bloodbath' if biden won next....the context of the conversation cleeeaaarrrly showed that he was speaking about an economic bloodbath....the media spent about three weeks in a very obviously coordinated campaign saying he was calling for violence. even a lot of traditional liberals in the media said it was BS. haight believed this hook, line, and sinker. joe rogan showed him the full context - meaning he literally showed him the video - and he just couldnt get there. said 'were just not going to agree on this joe'....it was legitimately weird.

[@Sigrdrifaz]

I worked some in elementary, and one of the concepts I could not get across to the kids was don't die on this hill, meaning it's a small injustice let it go, they would dig in and fight like their freedom from slavery was dependent on them standing up to this injustice. The other problem I saw was that discipline can be a full-time job and a lot of parents just outsourced it to the public school to discipline their children, they would allow them on their time to do anything they wanted, and expect the school to do it. But public schools have hands-tied when it comes to discipline, it just doesn't work, if you want the school to do it then you need to give them more leverage and no one wants to do that, and i get it i don't want strangers being to hard on my kids. I think private schools are the only way discipline can work if its outsourced, the parents must believe in the ethos of a school, accept its methods and allow the teachers to make the decision about what is too harsh.

[@pierrerudolph]

Very good interview. A question on being able to handle and except injustice. What is the balance between excepting injustice and try to change injustice. Compare the university students protesting against some perceived injustice.

[@Being_Bohemian]

Some fair points. But most young people go to school, which means that most young people know what injustice feels like, as a result of being in the mainstream school environment and system. (John Taylor Gatto has written about this prolifically.) Peter Gray, at Freedom to Learn, likens school to prison, where children's and teens' liberties and agency are markedly hampered, as a result of coercion and compulsion. So I can't accept the notion that many young people don't know what injustice feels like.

[@Campzzyzx]

We talking about Generation "I'm offended" also known as the Gen Zs ,Millennials and Democrats

[@heidi22209]

Lol.. " I'm offended if I'm not offended " haha. Totally demz

[@andreacook2416]

Who raised them?