Why Avatar Failed but One Piece Succeeded

[@GrandLineReview]

The keel was a very good analogy. Avatar was like setting sail without that keel and it crumbled. One Piece had the keel, and even though it wasn't the greatest boat, it had the most important part keeping it afloat.

[@olahisawsome]

Wow that's beautiful

[@AnyMEmdq]

You can't sail without a keel, Liam. A broken keel would've worked as a metaphor, but with no keel there's no ship

[@Green_garlic_lady_gaga]

omg this guy is hereee tooo :D.

[@ektran4205]

oda has total quality control over it

[@Andre-1687]

Hi Liam, Barto vs zorro?

[@niccosalonga9009]

Too many writers think they know better than the original authors. Edit: Actually, as someone who replied to me here mentioned, it is the directors/producers who think they know better. So either the writers they bring are crap or are forced to write the unreasonable.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Its too bad, since one piece seems to show collaboration between OG and new writers can be great

[@rakhatthenut3815]

​@@FrameOfMindBrosbecause Oda does not allow anyone to disrespect him. He is GOda, after all

[@galaxybrainjimmy1520]

made me remember calebcity's skit about this LOL

[@clff1342]

@@rakhatthenut3815the writers already respect Oda, and when Netflix wants them to skip main arcs they deny them cause they love one piece. A statement from he said they won’t put it out til oda is satisfied, and it wasn’t in contract the writers like Matt Owens just want it to be like that.

[@rakhatthenut3815]

@@clff1342 yep. The point is, Oda would have not agreed to even consider LA if it was any other way. Because he is respected by the writers, he is in it

[@shyguypro9876]

One Piece live action owes so much of its success to its lead writer Matt Owens. He truly loves One Piece. Two years prior to the show coming out, he was talking to One Piece KZbinrs about it. He spoke the language of a One Piece fan. He explained he fought for this job because it mattered to him that One Piece be done right because the stories of One Piece matter and can make people's lives better. The show absolutely benefitted from having Oda involved, but Matt Owens absolutely deserves credit for making the series as good as it was.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

I had no idea! It's so cool that even without realizing how big of a fan Matt was as lead writer, his passion was clearly translated into the final product.

[@servine1212]

Thanks for this ill make sure to give them their flowers.

[@avgaznESP]

If you want to hear it, search Matt Owens Reverie and it’s under Rogersbase stream VOD. The comments should have a timestamp with his bit. I went from an absolute hater to instant believer after he talked.

[@golden_zebra]

@@FrameOfMindBros For recent news for the live action season 2, I heard that Matt Owens (and also Oda?) had to fight the higher ups for Alabasta arc to be moved to S3 than fit everything in S2! We assume they also wanted to cut Whiskey Peak to fit Alabasta. But Matt and Oda-sensei really had to fight for it and won!!!

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

@@oriandthesleepytime I don't know why they wouldn't unless Matt himself really wants the fight to happen.

[@capriso2159]

The fact that the going merry still makes people tear up and became such a great analogy for adaptations was definitely a highlight for me.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

So glad you feel the same way! 😄🙏 Oda is so good at making us cry over people and things we didn't expect 😂

[@acilindigoes]

@@FrameOfMindBros watching one piece makes me such a cry baby every arc: dreams,hope,friendship got people even the old man :((

[@nellie4621]

I remember absolutely crying my eyes out when I first saw that scene at 8 years old, now I'm 21 and that scene *still* makes me bawl.

[@michaelzautner4848]

What always got me about removing Sokka’s sexism is that -the entire point- of it was that A) his sexism was wrong and B) people can change their views on others. Removing his sexism is the opposite of what anyone opposed to sexism should want. It just boggles my mind that people look at an example of sexism being bad and all they take away from it is that the character is sexist and we don’t want that in the current political climate. In saying that I think that is one of the issues this adaptation has. They smooth out all the character’s flaws because they’re supposed to be beloved characters and beloved characters can’t have bad aspects. They fail to realize that overcoming those flaws is part of why the characters are beloved.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Feels like an expression of a culture & atmosphere that prioritizes the destination over the journey. 😢 What they don't seem to realize is that the only value found in the destination is the story of what it took to get there.

[@michaelzautner4848]

@@FrameOfMindBros Agreed and very well put.

[@ferrellcowen5872]

and on top of that... they made him a victim of bullying which was the final straw for me to drop the show

[@BrentARJ]

​@@FrameOfMindBrosworse, I feel like it's a product of weird, recent mindset that we can't have flawed protagonists. Disney did this with the CG Pinocchio, making him a blameless good little boy instead of a misbehaving little brat. I'm split on why this seems to be happening. I wonder if writers are afraid that their audience won't root for a character with flaws, or maybe because some people seem to think writing these kind of characters is condoning bad behavior. I don't know but it's very frustrating.

[@split776]

@@FrameOfMindBros I think it's also the result of distrust in the audience - when you assume your audience is dumb and will jump to conclusions (like thinking you're sexist because a main character in your story starts off as sexist), you make the story dumb and impossible to misinterpret. As a writer (short stories, not television) I know what it's like to get dumb comments on my writing - and by dumb I mean I wrote a story about a character with PTSD lashing out and having a hard time coming out of the "fight or flight" mindset, and I got comments saying "yikes, your protagonist isn't supposed to hit their friend!" even though the protagonist is presented as being in the wrong! But if I let this kind of comments shape my writing, I will never be able to write about characters who struggle in ways that aren't the squeaky-clean image mainstream media likes to portray. And this is a story I wrote with an agenda (what you might call politics) in mind -that agenda being "I know people who struggle with PTSD, and I know they can't relate to many mainstream portrayals because those portrayals are either too 'family-friendly' to reflect the reality of FIGHTING you own brain every day, or too hopeless and end with the character in shambles. I'm going to write about a character whose struggle is at times ugly but they have hope and a future."

[@nugget3687]

Netflix wanted them to skip a lot of the smaller arcs so they can get to alabasta immediately, but matt stood his ground and pushed alabasta to season 3 so ALL arcs get their due. I understand this worries a lot of people thinking it means they won't get to the end, but i say, i don't mind all that much. If you have two choises, for the LA to skip arcs and not do they justice so they can finish, or not get to the end but the arcs are fleshed out as they should, what would luffy choose? Luffy was ready to die in Loguetown because the adventure up to that point was fun. We should think like luffy, and be happy they are taking their time so the show doesn't feel as rushed, and if ends prematurely, let's be happy we had this adventure at all

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Love the analogy of Loguetown Luffy 😂 It's probably best to hold the belief that they'll never finish the whole story in LA, so just enjoy it for as long as it lasts 🤞

[@OfficialEdwardNewgate]

does netflix think that One Piece fans of all fandoms would be impatient and would like if the smaller arcs were skipped lmao

[@stephen01king]

​@@OfficialEdwardNewgate Netflix execs don't think, that's the problem.

[@maddasher8471]

build up before the main arc is the bread and butter of one piece

[@Muhammad-HarDick]

I hope they go far, at least the sky island. It's my favorite arc.

[@aohige]

One Piece author oversaw the whole LA adaptation, and was given authority to give the last word. Avatar creators left the production due to creative differences. One gave authenticity to the adaptation, while the other threw dice in the air and hoped for the best.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

That pretty much sums it up 👍

[@nugget3687]

The fun thing is that technically, they don't NEED to listen to oda, it's the fact that they choose to let his word be law that really sells how much respect they have

[@samanthaw3845]

I think it’s also important that I haven’t heard a single thing from the ATLA live-action writers about their love for the original, whereas the lead writer for the OPLA had been talking for years about how much he loved One Piece before he even got the job writing the show.

[@nugget3687]

@samanthaw3845 when your one piece LA lead writer talks about his excitement about getting to adapt skypia you know you got the right guy

[@Darji8114]

@@nugget3687 I amn pretty sure this was one of the requirements to even be able to do this

[@miki-hf3ce]

I hated how they didn't embrace the comedy/goofyness in the start of Avatar, because now we won't feel and witness the build up and the difference on the start to the climax of the story. The feeling of "ohhhh this is getting serious" was not there

[@Sootielove]

People forget how funny and charming AtLA is! Yeah, it's got great drama but the characters are goofballs! Sokka spent an entire episode stuck in a hole, Aang's constantly making jokes and loony toones-ing his way out of fights, even Katara and Zuko are funny more often that not, especially when they're trying to act more mature than they are. The humour is so key to the show focusing on how these children go through the story's hardships

[@ohwell1547]

​@@Sootielove Honestly, you can say that ATLA live action is lacking a lot of emotions from the original, like it's more "adult" but somehow has way less of a bite. Not even a bark compared to the og. Like the actors can't even act, its like they been told just recite lines with as little emotions as possible but also to still show a bit at the same time, it's really bizzare. Like the OP live action had to subdued some more outlandish sides of the characters but at the least they can be sassy or wacky, or...show emotions. Makes you wonder why OP live A. can do goofy jokes but not ATLA live A.

[@milesclayborne]

One additional thing about sokka’s sexism in AtLA: after he is reformed he must also witness firsthand the effects of these kinds of dismissive attitudes towards women in the northern water tribe. He has to see how much it hurts yue to be a part of a system that has no regard for her feelings and treats her as chattel and (to a lesser extent) he sees his sister’s frustration at their unwillingness to teach her waterbending. The series didn’t leave a single scrap of meat on that bone. Also the thought experiment you’re referencing is called the ship of Theseus

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Ah that's the name! Thank you!

[@charcoal200]

God I love that Oda wrote the Going Merry's end so well that even over a DECADE after it happened, ppl can still tear up when just briefly talking about it lol. Over a damn boat!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

I don't understand how he does it so effortlessly 😄 but dang it's effective 😭

[@ShaunRF]

Katara doesn't mention hope, and Zuko doesn't mention honor.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

smh :(

[@Pams-22]

Important fact: the entire Alvida scene was filmed during the day (that's how it is in the manga) but Eiichiro Oda asked for it to be filmed at night and they had to film it all again. This was told by the actor of Helmeppo and Iñaki (Luffy) who had to return to do the reshooting. YEAH That's how important the author's opinion is to OPLA, that they had to waste budget and time redoing a whole scene.

[@gavin5724]

And to an extent I like that, if Oda is ok with it, then it’s ok, but if anything is done that Oda isn’t a fan of or doesn’t like, then they will follow odas words.

[@Gottzchalk]

My biggest problem with Avatar is the obvious destruction of characters. Roku in particular was a clown, when he's suppose to be connection between Fire Nation and Aang, that should have set him to be the guide. Aangs past voice to help find his own Avatar way. One Piece cast did not exactly replicate the anime characters, but that's a good thing. What actors did was embrace each one and adapt what was missing to make them feel real. One Piece was an adaption with serious approach but kept the fun. Avatar canceled the fun; instead created a fancy CGI spectacle.

[@mysticfox1663]

The f'd up almost every character. And it's a character arc driven show. Smh

[@nugget3687]

The LA one piece characters are slightly different but they still feel like their characters, they are accurate in spirit. Most the things inaki did feels like something manga luffy did, and even the little change that he doesn't have an appetite when he's worried about his friends but even that doesn't feel that far off. Luffy does care more about his friends then meat so the change still kinda works for this adaptation

[@Phantom_Zone]

​@@nugget3687 Like Luffy went on a hunger strike for Sanji. People really don't understand Luffy.

[@DJBS-YT]

When the creators of Avatar left I lost hope. Oda had said in his yearly jumpfesta letter that the show runners won't keep a scene if he was unsatisfied with it. Mat Owens (one of the SR of one piece) has been quoted saying one piece saved his life

[@GrohiikVahlokJul]

Monk Gyatso was strongly against telling Aang about the avatar at all, and was personally concerned about the effect on him if the role were pushed on him. Having our first impression of him being him doing exactly that is antithetical to his character.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

I feel like that really highlights how changes to characters aren't inherently bad, but changes that are in direct opposition to characters' traits and motivations probably rarely, if ever, work. 😢

[@Phantom_Zone]

​@@FrameOfMindBros On top of that. The reason Aang feels responsible for what happened to the Air Nomad is because he ran away. But in LA he went out to clear his head. Which is such a big character decision. It directly affects Aangs future character. He ran away.

[@AnyMEmdq]

1:50:00 AMAZING analogy with the keel there, and I'd like to contribute something else that they mentioned there. Luffy asked them to build a new Merry from scratch if needed, and the reply he got was, paraphrasing, "No two pieces of wood are identical. Even if we had the original blueprints, and followed them to the T, you are the ones who'd notice it's not the same ship." If the keel is the soul, or spirit of the story, and the rest of the ship is the medium/adaptation, the viewers would be the crew. We are the ones who notice it's not the same story.

[@Itoyokofan]

This is what happened to Psycho remake which is a shot to shot recreation of the original, but all the feels are gone.

[@BashfulBlanket]

Also another thing, it's crazy that in the TLA Live Action version: The book about WATER , they use waterbender maybe once or twice in all the episodes.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

That was immensely disappointing 😟

[@makubesohaan3922]

I'm willing to bet money that season 2 is gonna start off with Aang having mastered Waterbending offscreen. It'll probably start with him, in Pakku's class, doing a series of complicated waterbending moves, and either Pakku or Katara will be like "Wow, you mastered waterbending so fast!"

[@sanjomaz]

…Which will be a huge retcon to how Netflix s1 ended because Pakku is there saying that Katara is welcome to stay in the NWT to help rebuild things after the battle and help train other waterbenders along with Aang, and she decided to…*not* do that… and instead follow this boy to his next uncharted destination and just teach him waterbending when he has the time. 😒 I’m sure he’ll be a natural waterbender though.

[@samanthaw3845]

1:18:14 one of the most wild things about that statement about trying to make ATLA “mature” like Game of Thrones is like - one of our major characters is a survivor of child abuse!! His entire arc is realizing that what he went through WAS abuse, and it wasn’t his fault and wasn’t OK, and learning to stand up to his abuser. And it’s not like they hide or imply that, they make it pretty damn explicit that Ozai melted part of Zuko’s freaking face off!! Just because the tone of the show is overall positive and hopeful and sometimes it’s comedic doesn’t mean that it didn’t deal with some really dark and mature subjects. “It was CRUEL and it was WRONG” still hits me right in the chest every time I rewatch the show. (Also I was 20 the first time I watched ATLA and loved it, so.) Edit: I think one major difference that made OP LA work where ATLA LA didn’t - the OP crew leaned into how ridiculous the show could be at times (Capt Morgan’s zebra pants, Buggy being just his head and hands and feet in ep 2), whereas the ATLA producers tried to avoid how silly the OG show could be as much as possible.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Absolutely agree, it feels like when some people talk about "mature" they really mean "dark", and those are two completely separate concepts.

[@golden_zebra]

I like how One Piece came off as more mature in the end... nobody in the cast and crew said it would be, nobody was expecting it when they saw the anime or read the manga, nobody. Only the viewers said it was 'mature' after actually experiencing it, not before.

[@ChaosArmoury]

I dropped Avatar after episode 1 because I was bored out of my mind. I dropped One Piece five minutes into episode 7 because I couldn't handle the devastating psychic trauma of going through Nami's backstory again. It took me months before I could finish the show.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Curse you Arlong 😡

[@golden_zebra]

I've seen the showrunner talk about One Piece when he was invited by a youtuber to talk about one piece. I've seen a youtuber and writer (and long time fan of one piece) said he's actually worked with the writing team for the live action. I've listened to the interviews of the composers gushing about the show. I've heard directors talk about that their sons, nephews and nieces were fans of the show. I actually believe like 95% of the cast and crew are either superfans of the show or at least fans by osmosis. Lol. The ones who aren't fans before are most probably fans now because all I ever hear about them is that they love one piece now 😂 I've never heard anything like that from Avatar live action except from the main actors.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

It's clear when people's passion for the IP shines through their work

[@hellbunniez3]

we do know that matt did have the cast and crew of season 1 have regular viewings of the anime on set during production (during off-days i believe). taz, for example, posted on his IG story once (way way back in 2022) that matt sat down with him and made him watch the entirety of whole cake island to let him get a feel of sanji’s true character behind the flirt casanova and nosebleed facade (and knowing sanji is matt’s favourite character he must’ve also shared his insights about him as a fan).

[@redmamba2886]

So true 😭 I never was interested in One piece and was one of those "Im not watching more than a thousand episodes lol", didn't know anything about that anime other than it being a classic, I watched the live action after multiple good reviews from fans (which is impressive since they managed to please THE one piece fans) and non fans, absolutely adored it 😅 started one piece right after it and it's now one of my fav animes 😭 I got to the 1000 episode 1 week ago

[@pewpewfruit]

I remember when luffy vs usopp happened I can't even express how emotional that was, can't wait for it in the live action

[@Professor_Wisteria_]

dude with how well these actors have been portraying their original counterparts i know for a fact that Water 7 is going to shatter me once we get there in LA 😭

[@307nishchay8]

I hated usopp immensely so i was hyped for the fight because i was happy usopp was being kicked out of the crew. The fight that made me tear up was luffy vs sanji in WCI

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Mmm we might just be doing a video with that scene in the near future 🤔😁

[@someguy_namingly]

I like your optimism, but Water 7 would be a long way away in the live action. Who knows if the show will last that long? (I hope it does!)

[@JeanneFeisont]

Cue the spongebob rollercoaster gif- One Piece is NOT that deep

[@trivialqed]

To expand on the point of the writers of One Piece wanting to know how lights worked, Steven Maeda (showrunner alongside Matt Owens, and writer) read the entirety of the manga up to date to make sure any changes they made didnt clash with future events of the manga He has many interviews talking ab behind-the-scene stuff here on youtube, im sure u guys will love going through his thought process. Another behind-the-scene story is ab the barrel scene at the very end. An editor made a quick edit including the strawhats as kids making their pledge, Maeda got emotional at that version and left it in the final cut

[@FrameOfMindBros]

That's cool! So many stories that would be awesome to dig into

[@kyrrasaoy4599]

this is a great example, i guess, of why one piece worked. bcs it's a collaboration of people who know and adore the IP. people are given the ability to exercise their creativity within the confines of the original work which leads to some of the most emotional scenes like that barrel scene bcs holy shit, i was crying during that scene. and it's a scene unique to the live action. unique to that medium. unique to that version of one piece.

[@lachellerivera5624]

We were all like, "Damn you, Oda, you made us cry over a ship!" 😂

[@jessicajayes8326]

2 things One Piece did right: creator consent and perfect casting! Oda-sensei was overseer of everything and the casting choices were fantastic!

[@Jakokokoroko]

This makes me remember Alvida's actress. She lost a ton of weight since S1 to better portray Alvida as she is in Loguetown. And nobody told her to do that, she did that on her own. You can really feel how much these actors and actresses love this show they are a part of.

[@jessicajayes8326]

@@Jakokokoroko She's amazing and beautiful in every way!

[@Phanthief95]

Adding onto the castings, I have never seen a show where the cast has this much amazing chemistry with each other, & they’re even making the newcomers feel welcome. I had recently seen a video of Iñaki (Luffy’s actor) playing Catan with the actresses who play Alvida, Tashigi, & Vivi.

[@jessicajayes8326]

@@Phanthief95 I saw that! Matt Owens (showrunner) was playing too! I thought "Yup, that's Vivi!"

[@lachellerivera5624]

One of the things that made the cartoon so great was the flaws of the characters. It was their flaws and good points that made them so endearing.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Our flaws are what allow us to connect with others, real or fictional!

[@AnyMEmdq]

1:15:10 Most great stories have a political statement in them. The thing is: Is that statement justified by the story I'm experiencing? Or is it just someone saying "that is bad, this is good" with nothing to show for it? "Sokka's sexism is bad, we're removing it from the story". Ok, I hear you, let's compare both versions, then Sexist version Sokka progresses and betters himself. Non-sexist version lacks personality, drive, will, and gets thoroughly abused. Sexist version Suki is strong, resolute, powerful, funny, badass, mature, knows who she is and what she wants. Non-sexist version is childish, awkward, abusive, not fully self-aware, selfish. So Suki goes from a badass fighter, strong woman, and amazing character, into a horny creep, and Sokka into a Stockholm syndrome patient with next to no personality. In the "sexist" version both characters are way more likeable. I guess sexism is good, then? Jokes aside, the original show gave us reasons for Sokka's attitude, and portrayed the consequences of them. The story itself said "Sokka's (not only sexual) chauvinism is bad, Suki is removing it," but not at the expense of Sokka, who grew on his own from the experience. To Sokka, Suki was a wall to crash onto face-first. He alone learned from the crash. And Suki, as the badass she certainly is, showed that you are the one to decide who you are. The new show, on the other hand, only portrays a completely dysfunctional relationship between two unlikeable characters: A lashing-out bully wannabe boss bitch, who's in turn kept on a leash by her lashing-out bully wannabe boss bitch mother, and an emasculated, aboulic nobody, gift-wrapped and ready for the bully to toy with. The marketing team, meanwhile, publicly said "Sexism is bad, according to our checkboxes for modern audiences, so it was eradicated from the script." It's not the story giving the message, it's the marketing team doing it. The story tells me that frustrated bullies can creep on and abuse weaker people and get rewarded. This alone is proof enough for me that those in charge of making decisions never understood the story.

[@microvan1234]

The only thing I really disliked about the live action adaptation was Nami’s village not knowing about her deal with arlong. It undermines a lot of the emotional underpinning of the arc imo. In the manga the whole reason they choose to live under arlong without rebelling is because they know Nami is trying to buy their freedom. And the reveal that they knew the whole time and pretended not to so she could leave without the pressure of their expectations if it ever became too much was super emotional for Nami and the reader. I don’t understand why they changed it.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Yeah I agree it would have been more impactful to include that 😭 still a great arc though. Would love to know as well why it was changed

[@leonardojuangorena4421]

⁠@@FrameOfMindBrosmostly because the original plan was to have 10 episodes, but almost at last moment Netflix decided to cut it to 8 so some stuff had to be left out, there was even already scripted a fight sequence between Zoro and Hachi but they couldn’t do it at the end because of the budget cut.

[@Itoyokofan]

They had to invent those tangerine pinwheels, and paint tattoos to omit the very important themes. Like why Genzo is wearing a pinwheel? Because he loves Nami, and a pinwheel made her laugh when she was a baby. Why Nojiko has tattoos? Because tattoos are bad things (in Japan) and she doesn't want Nami that was branded with sawfish tattoo to feel ashamed. They just had to cramp so much into 1,5 episodes it really affected the quality of storytelling.

[@Pams-22]

I think it was an adaptation decision. There wasn't much time to get to know the town, but there was time to get to know Nami. By making her carry all the hate and be completely alone, it makes her distrustful and even a little dark attitude much more explained. It also gave her a redemption arc towards her people, her family and also forgiveness on both sides. Nami carried a weight the whole time, and when she says goodbye she leaves much lighter. I did like this change.

[@malikbrewster6730]

At the end of the series premiere, Katara asks Aang why he never told them he was the Avatar and his response is a simple, sullen; “Because… I never wanted to be.” The whole point of Aang’s journey is him learning to accept his responsibilities even while he’s still a child. The fact that Netflix wanted to streamline that core development is one of the many reasons why the show failed. Imo, ATLA the animated series is a perfect piece of work. It doesn’t need to be adapted because its themes, values and even animation still hold up after nearly 20 years.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

One of those timeless stories you can keep coming back to 😊

[@wickedbob66]

Dude.. I've been EXACTLY there about the Going Merry. I was simply explainging the concept of the Merry scene to someone who has zero interest in watching One Piece and I teared up. Lol. She refused to believe that I felt that way ABOUT A BOAT ! lOL

[@FrameOfMindBros]

She's so much more than just a ship!

[@jiv3o275]

Wait a minute, I think I *just* now, after reading one piece for nearly 17 years, figured out exactly why Merry isn't "just a ship" and why her death hit so hard (other than the obvious reasons). Merry is basically the Appa of the strawhat crew. She's a valuable member of the team, has animal/childlike innocence, is the mount/transportation method for the crew, and has such loyalty and determination that she saved the crew while dying at the end of ennies lobby. Merry dying at the end of ennies lobby is tragic in the same way that Appa dying halfway through book 2 would be tragic.

[@Diadem187]

About that scene about Aang saying "Can I just keep pretending to be your friend?" And Gyatso saying "You are my friend" and hugging him, the exact same scene happens in Man of Steel Superman movie. Kid Clark Kent doesn't know why he has all these powers. Jonathan Kent tells him that he came in a spaceship and he's probably an alien. Kid Clark Kent then says "Can I just keep pretending I'm your son?" To which, Jonathan Kent says "You are my son" and hugs him. It's a very impactful scene in the movie. I think the Netflix writers just copied it because how emotional that scene was in the movie. It makes sense in that movie because Kid Clark Kent just realizes that he was adopted and not Jonathan Kent's real son. Jonathan Kent reassures Clark Kent that he is. In case of Aang and Gyatso though, it doesn't make sense. Just because he's the Avatar doesn't mean that he's not really friends with Gyatso.

[@Destinnies]

It seems the Avatar show adaptation focus was making sure the special effects this time were handled better than the that Avatar movie, I mean budget was tight. But they forgot about the real stuff that matters. There was no balance. They forgot about the characters and the plot.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Maybe this is a one step at a time type of situation where each LA iteration will get one thing right that the previous attempt got wrong lol

[@Phanthief95]

It’s hilariously ironic you saying that there was no balance in a series that is centered around balance.

[@Destinnies]

@@Phanthief95 Wow! That's funny and it's a shame it's true

[@brodymorales3520]

Every executive should watch this

[@FrameOfMindBros]

We couldn't agree more 😄 Can you share this with some of them? 😂🙃

[@AzulApe]

People keep telling me that Avatar is good, but I don’t see it. One Piece was gold.

[@chuckynocheese3271]

I didn't watch it. I was very excited, but once Michael and Bryan left the project, I wanted to wait and see what people were saying before I wasted time on it.

[@mysticfox1663]

I watched the first episode. It was very bad. C- at best.

[@MiniMuni69]

I mean the original show is phenomenal. Live action Avatar? They managed to make it boring. One of the most exciting episode-to-episode series, and they somehow bored me. Yeah, not worth it.

[@gandalainsley6467]

@@MiniMuni69 Not the first season. Reason live action had so many problems with the first season is because there were a lot of problems with the cartoon's first season and during it creators kept changing a lot of things which would be very noticeable in live action if they did that. Show format changed.(they went from story of the week to connected story) Katara nearly got the whole show cancelled because people hated her that much so creators started creating test episodes to see how people react to new version of Katara.(that is the Katara people know and pretend that she was the og Katara. She wasn't. Og Katara was very unlikable) Zuko wasn't intended to be a long term thing which changed. So live action had to create a version of Katara that did not exist which was mixture of both Kataras otherwise you would need to cut her out completely for the most part of the season.(that is why she isn't doing that much in the live action in the first place). First 2 episodes of the show are the worst ones because they somehow had to connect them to everything. Zuko worked out very well though. Second season most likely will be much better because they can just go straight forward without trying to work through cartoon's flaws.

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

​​@@gandalainsley6467I feel like you and I watched a very different version of the old shows first season. Katara feels like a completely consistent character to me, no idea what part of her you think changed a lot, and the show started setting up Zuko as a character from episode 3. I feel like you should rewatch the first season of the show, because you ironically seem to be misremembering it yourself.

[@sanjomaz]

… hear that? That, my friends, was Mike and Bryan slamming the conference room door on the Netflix execs’ faces when it was decided to pull Aang’s childish evasiveness, Katara’s fiery resilience, and Sokka’s fragile masculinity to instead focus on the Shakespearean five-act play redemption arc of fire nation Prince Zuko. Don’t get me wrong- the redemption arc is wonderful- but it’s not going to land the same way when all of Zuko’s foils are flat and uninspiring. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Agreed, even though Zuko is my favourite character it’s so frustrating to see him as the only character with an ounce of depth 🫤

[@niello5944]

What a great and well articulated discussion. Just a little niche thought about the One Piece live action. I've been reading One Piece since around late Alabasta, so my attachment with East Blue is probably a little more than most. When Garp was introduced in Water 7 I wanted a meeting between Garp and Zeff, knowing they can both be because East Blue is their home. I wanted an old timer talk between them about raising a new generation and about the old time. Needless to say, I was surprised to actually see that legitimately happened in live action form. Someone on that team thought about it, and the team agreed it's a good enough idea. They explored the One Piece world and came up with an independent and out of the way situation that's never going to happen in the main source material, but fulfilled the wish of at least one long time fan. That's not something that can be said about many other teams facing the challenge of adapting a story.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you! And agreed, it's very cool to see writers make changes that, as long as they honor the spirit of the original, could be changes that we actually have thought of ourselves 😁

[@shinkaiatsuya950]

It's not just a ship it's Nakama

[@FrameOfMindBros]

❤⛵😢🫡

[@dannysyarissy9002]

I love how constructive the criticism is given and not just mindlessly bashing it.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you! We'd love to bring a bit of a different flavour of critique than what seems to dominate most of KZbin these days 👍

[@lamcb.9476]

You guys went so hard with the keel and the Going Merry analogy, it made me kinda teary eyed

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Happy we could make you cry along with us 😂🥲

[@AFKBard]

Comparing Oda to the importance of the keel was brilliant. Such a great breakdown of ATLA LA and OPLA and the importance of keeping the spirit of the shows. I listened to the whole thing. Dang you had a lot to say lol (but well said)

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you! And we appreciate your endurance in getting through it all :)

[@samanthaw3845]

Them removing Sokka’s sexism actually made me a bit sad when I first heard about it - I first watched ATLA when I was in college, so my perspective might be a little bit different than those who watched the show for the first time as kids, but that moment where Sokka comes to the Kyoshi Warriors and kowtows to Suki asking her to train him was the moment I absolutely fell in love with his character. And it totally makes sense why Suki would develop a crush on him, because the ability to accept being humbled, admit when you’re wrong, and apologize is an excellent trait in a romantic partner! That’s part of why I really like them as a couple, they both seem to help each other grow as individuals. I didn’t get that at all from the live action, it all seemed to be like “oh he/she is hot and can fight, let’s kiss”. Y’all are right, they definitely could have replaced the sexism with a warrior’s pride thing if the writers had just thought it through, but also. Let characters be problematic and go through arcs where they get better!! Especially characters who are basically kids - God knows we all did stuff when we were young teens that we look back on as adults and go “oh jeez that was an asshole thing I did”.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

It's such an unfortunate trend these days: when writers try to write flawless characters they also end up writing flat, uninteresting characters who's actions feel unmotivated and don't make sense.

[@paulgibbon5991]

@@FrameOfMindBros A phrase that's always stuck in my mind, for both fiction and real life, is "If nobody could possibly dislike you, you don't have a personality."

[@FrameOfMindBros]

@@paulgibbon5991 that's a fantastic way to phrase it. Might have to steal that one 😉👍 and not just for a video, but as a reminder in my personal life too!

[@samfisher6606]

I loved the One Piece live-action so much! I do think it had flaws. It was rushed and it felt shallow compared to the manga. Usopp's character development was cut out, so was Sanji's big connection to Luffy via food, and Coco Village not knowing about Nami's sacrifice and the subsequent omission of the scene where she plasters a smile on her face saying "I'll start saving again certainly makes "help me" less powerful. With ATLA, I couldn't make it past episode 4 or 5. One of my biggest issues with the Avatar live-action is that Aang doesn't run away. He goes to clear his head. So Kyoshi blaming and calling him out for running away is weird because it's objectively untrue. And she should be one of the few people to know that. And the show directly opposes the themes of the original show. The original show says "Use the Avatar powers as a last resort". The live-action says "The avatar powers are your first resort".

[@KevinUchihaOG]

Agreed, but so does the creative team behind OPLA. They wanted 10 episodes at first, but got cut down to 8 due to budget concerns. I imagine having two extra episodes would fix the things feeling rushed or being omitted. They wanted to really be done with east blue in the first season, since that is mostly like the prologue of the actual show. So they had to rush through a few things. But season 2 will be much slowed paced. Netflix wanted Season 2 to include the whole alabasta arc, but Matt Owens and Oda fought back and managed to convince Netflix that slowing thing down will be better for the show in long term. Seems like they want each of the arcs before alabasta to really get done justice.

[@MrEnKaye]

I loved listening to every minute of this not just for the commentsry, but the WAY you guys speak and buikd each other's conversations is a masterclass in "professional yet friendly" conversation. I mean, it makes sense given your occupations, but i was actually taking notes on how to be a speak like a better leader and friend. THANK you!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Oh wow, thank you!! 🤩 That's an incredible compliment, it's exactly what we're hoping to bring with our videos.

[@stocking283]

wow, really enjoying listening to this, you both have consistently brought up ALL the same things I was feeling as I was watching the show (and a lot more insights, ofc), but ESPECIALLY the whole thing feeling like a theater production. One of the biggest things that I felt lent to that? Almost every single time there's characters talking back and forth, it instantly becomes flat, boring, shot/reverse shot sequence where the characters talk flatly at the camera and wait for a response like I'm playing Baldur's Gate 3 and I just got locked into dialogue. I got so frustrated early on seeing them do the same shot over and over and over and over on all of the gorgeous sets that exist exclusively as theatrical backdrop for the stage production happening in front of the camera. It ties right into the Tell-Don't-Show issue, the cinematography ends up being incredibly boring because it ends up relying on shot-reverse shot for all of the back and forth dialogue, in a show where they forgo a LOT of action for expository dialogue. These combine to just feel so, so, so bad and frustrate me so much while watching because of how much it stands out once I noticed. I haven't been able to finish the show myself, thank you for suffering through the rest for all of our sakes.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

That's what we're here for! 🫡

[@paul2549]

The only way I’m coming back is if everyone that was involved with the writing/script is removed…anyone that didn’t have a problem with it, anyone that knows someone…everyone just gone. Love the actors and the vfx team

[@beovulf7241]

1:22:00 This whole segment got me tearing up. Having this feeling of, this is one of the best thought-out shows ever made, best story ever told. Now Netflix got the honor to represent it in another medium and they totally mishandled it. It is so unfortunate. It hurts.

[@supercollider012]

This is the BEST critical discussion I’ve heard for any piece of media. Instant fan.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Wow thank you so much! 🙏 that is amazingly encouraging to hear ❤️🥲

[@simz88]

I made it to episode 3 for the live action, it felt like a chore, but the changes they made with the avatar state just got me way too annoyed to continue

[@FrameOfMindBros]

You are wise to choose surrender over suffering 😢

[@christopherrodriguez3646]

I made it to 4 and had to call it quits

[@Goldie_Roger]

I never watch 2-hour-long videos, but I feel these guys really matched my perspective as a fan of BOTH these shows' original source material.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Glad it resonates with you!

[@IsraelLlerena]

4:09 was exactly me!!!! I remember watching the live action with my fingers on my temples in frustration with how bad the show was becoming. I genuinely wanted to stop watching. Some of The music didn’t feel like it came from the world, the story isn’t consistent, the way they portrayed the past avatars seemed insulting. They’re writing and shooting season 2&3 at once. That means if they didn’t improve writing, they can’t exactly fix it for season 3 since it’ll already be shot 💀 Loving the video!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Glad you liked the video! Yeah that's a bit concerning that they're shooting both at once. I mean it makes sense logistically but it means there's zero opportunity to course correct if something happens 😵 Not holding my breath but still holding onto the possibility that it could improve.

[@AnyMEmdq]

1:51:55 Say it with pride, this is the badge of honor we One Piece fans carry: We cry over the fucking drawing of a boat with a ridiculous sheep for figurehead. And I say "we cry" and not "we cried" because I first read the Water 7 Saga like 15 years ago. I still cry over that damn chunk of wood. DAMN YOU, ODA!!! STOP SENDING ONION-CHOPPING NINJAS TO MY HOUSE!

[@Phanthief95]

Adding onto this, in the first episode of the live action, you can hear a certain song play in the scene where Shanks is stitching up Luffy’s face. Every One Piece fan knows this song & it has made them cry or tear up every time they hear it. And the amazing thing is, when we hear this song in the anime, Luffy mentions that he first heard it from Shanks.

[@AnyMEmdq]

@@Phanthief95 I love all those callbacks and references they did in OPLA, to things that are canon to the story but were not shown even in the manga (the most glaringly obvious one being Zoro's fight against Mr. 7). And ATLA did it to some degree too, by showing the Fire Nation attack on the Air Temple, for example. Sadly, they fucked up almost everything else

[@aidanjanemcintosh6919]

Crap, the analogy with the two ships literally made me cry. I AM AT WORK GOD DAMN IT!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

YES! JOIN US WITH YOUR TEARS!!!

[@SICProwl]

They literally could have had the whole Air Nomad tribes or whatever come in with the intention of revealing the Avatar and oh shit it's Aang! All while you see/hear talk of a comet - like c'mon! Seems way more credible then for them to celebrate some comet.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

I like that idea! 👍

[@AkahigeNoAmo]

I hadn't watched the animated Avatar series yet before watching the LA series. And I am not that much of a critical watcher anyways, but I couldn't really get into it. I had watched the first episode, and then the 2nd and 3rd after a week or 2, and then force-binged the last few over a weekend. A couple of days later I started the animated series which was a such a different experience. I watched the first book over a week, the 2nd over 2 and then took a break, book 2 felt really exhausting for me, and just started book 3. The LA series defies the goofy and jovial nature of the animated series at so many opportunities, it is disheartening. Add to that the "virtue-signaling" flat scenes that rarely ever feel natural or work it becomes iffy. For me, both the animated Avatar series as well as the One Piece manga/anime are very similar in so far that they both appear to be goofy and childish adventure stories, but, even if you do not really pay attention, reveal chasms of nuance and depth below the most minute and or banal details. The Avatar adaptation doesn't, as you so minutely dissected, even seem to realize a lot if any of the originals strengths in that regard. Sure, the One Piece Live Action did change quite a lot of things as well, but many or most of these are, if you stay still and think about it a bit, were made due to necessities of the adaptation process and its limitations - most of all budget (be it time, episode count, money, reality etc) and in order to uphold the originals spirit in a different medium. Am I fan of all those - no - the flattening of most side-characters for example is one - but it is also very apparent that it was done due to budget constraints. With some changes me not liking them is also because I question the perspective going forward (ie the Going Merry being an apparently brand new ship, and some character stuff) but that is something the writers have to tackle. A story of Steven Maeda, the 2nd OP showrunner, I really like is how he dreamt about a scene with Hachi and Zoro fighting through Arlong Park only wake up as if from a nightmare because he tried to estimate the costs of the CGI of that one scene alone. The anti-cynical nature of both Avatar and OP are their core strength, in my opinion (with all the quirks, however genre- or realism-defying the resulting/entailing tropes might be). Trying to be more "mature" and "gritty" is antithetical that core.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Great to get the perspective of an LA first watcher!

[@AkahigeNoAmo]

@@FrameOfMindBros also, sorry for the rambling unstructure nature of what I wrote :D

[@loco_logic]

1:22:50 - 1:23:35 Wooooah you just blew my mind! I've been watching this show for almost 2 decades and was never aware of those amazing details. I also like the way it was all edited together for this video. Impressive stuff, guys!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you! And I'll be honest (Curtis), I saw a KZbin short that pointed out the Ren and Shaw crown, I hadn't noticed it until this year either!!

[@thevioletbee5879]

They did however call The Blue Spirit a throwaway filler episode in the process. 😅

[@TheXXIJackpot]

For me, when I was on board with the OPLA when I saw Matt Owens talking with youtubers. You can see his passion, his love and understanding of the source material. So with Oda and Matt, they did their best. For me, most of the problems of OPLA are budget problems. You find out you spend almost all of your money, so you need to start cutting things, even if it's important. With avatar.. Well, it's evident they don't understand the source material and wanted to make changes for the sake of doing it. PD: We all cried to the Going Merry and that shows how good Oda is with his storytelling.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

👍

[@shardonayM]

the way I describe the avatar live action is that someone took a fine tooth sandpaper to everyone's character

[@FrameOfMindBros]

😂 Very poignant description

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

47:33 I think the mission statement was "create a Game of Thrones clone" and not much else.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Unfortunately

[@snuffysam]

What’s ironic is that Netflix did manage to release a “prestige TV” adaptation of an existing story with memorable characters & vast worldbuilding that was a catch even with people who weren’t fans of the original, that they can milk the success of for seasons to come. It just wasn’t the series they were expecting to be the “next Game of Thrones” lol.

[@trivialqed]

the original creators overlooking scripts and scenes is so crucial. when the creators of avatar left the live action project i mentally checked out. conversely i was hopeful ab One Piece bc Oda was all over scripts and scenes. He even asked for reshoots and the showrunners complied. On an interview with Mihawk's actor he revealed Mihawk's introduction scene at the beach in episode 5 was filmed last. They had filmed a whole different scene where Garp calls Mihawk, Mihawk answers and the scene shows him as the only man standing in the aftermath of a fight with Don Crieg. Oda asked for a reshoot where Mihawk completely destroy's Don Crieg's crew, he wanted his strength to be shown and thats how we ended with one of the most amazing scenes of the whole show in the original fight between Zoro and Mihawk the viewer knows Zoro is going to lose against someone who sliced a whole ship in half, we're afraid of whats going to happen to Zoro and that makes the whole fight nerve-racking. Oda knew this and thats why he insisted on the reshoot, bc he understands the nuance of his story that even huge fans like Matt Owens (showrunner) might miss. That feeling of "zoro is going to lose" and fear for his life translated really well in the live action bc Oda asked for the reshoot edit: it was on an interview with Steven Maeda, not Mihawk's actor. U can find it as "Making One Piece Live Action Good w/ Steven Maeda | Thats Dope! Episode 107" around minute 18:28

[@gravitywarp8645]

I'm so glad they decided to make it a mid fight scene not only to demonstrate Mihawk's strength but also his nonchalantness. Answering a phone mid battle and still dominating.

[@tommel672]

Randomly found you guys from the sidebar. Loving the conversations. I hope things work out for your channel.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thanks so much tommel! 🙏🏻 with kind people like you leaving comments I think this channel has a chance to do okay 😁 so glad the internet brought us together

[@whycyrus0]

The quality of this podcast is outstanding😮

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Super happy you think so 😁🙏🏻 we’ll keep trying to improve the quality each episode 🫡

[@richardyasushiii3848]

Finally! A non-toxic fan-based breakdown of massive IP's. Thank-you for the thoughtful debate and review of both shows. This is what criticism should be about.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you! That's a perfect way to describe what we're trying to do 😁

[@dessieb145]

This is my intro to your channel and I love how in depth you both talk about these works. I really enjoyed this conversation!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much! 🙏

[@_de_reve]

I am SO HAPPY to have discovered this video on my sidebar! From the get-go I could see how level-headed but also very passionate story-telling fans you are. "The entertainment industry how it is now kinda really being the outworkings of a venture capitalist system" is what made me gasp as i really think this is one of the main problems with hollywood nowadays but many commentators fail to go that deep! Also, I find that you laying the fundament of specific critique and constructive criticism as guiding line for your podcast really elevated my viewing experience of this video. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I really will be looking forward to more from you both✨👏🍀

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much! We're really glad you found it too 😁

[@Face2East]

One Piece live action surprised me. I was very reluctant to go to it after loving the original story so much I didn't want another thing just ruined in front of me. But they really did knock it out the part, and as said by other commenters, it's definitely because the writer truly loved the source material. The result of the efforts of Matt Owens is a tour de force he can be very proud of.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Absolutely 💯😁

[@EllinasParamythas]

It becomes really upsetting where these industries decide to "invest" their money

[@kh4irulanwar]

I feels like lack of communication between member of production of any adaptation. If you think logic for a moment, why the hell nobody in world tell the writer, "hey it's not the same as the original, the fan must be furious if we told the story like this". I start thinking maybe executive must be a big part of this changes right? Compromised on the standard/blueprint/original. We as society have lost ability to provide negative feedback to each other. Afraid to lost income, being canceled, scared to tell the truth, lose your job. We are terrified to accept the negative feedback and to give negative feedback. To much positive, and it's become delusional.

[@AnyMEmdq]

Since you asked for it, something that completely broke my immersion with ATLA that yo guys didn't bring up is how the spy got wind on the Avatar's location. So there's a kid flying all over a city, which is weird enough for the spy to catch wind of it. But when we arrive in the city, nobody even glances at the sky when now alongside Teo Aang is flying all over the place too. Let's take it out of the screen for a minute: You live in a small town, and suddenly a flying kid starts appearing. Sooner rather than later, 90% of the town will have tracked down the location of the flying boy. You can extrapolate it to a big city, if you want, it will be the neighbourhood first, and it might take a bit longer, but it will be soon. People will start asking both Teo and the Mechanist about the weird flying device, the everyone with some money will start requesting gliders for their own kids. Overnight, the Mechanist will become a staple, and the spot where the drafts allow take-off saturated with kids. In less than a week, the army of flying kids will stop being news. Within the story that means a) it would not have reached the ears of the spy as something strange, b) even if it did, with a spy network that vast, and the Mechanist working for the Fire Nation, the spy would be aware of the flying kids, c) even if he wasn't, when approaching the city to verify the intel, he would've seen the citizens were unfazed by it, making him at least ask around, and learn they had nothing to do with the Avatar or any Airbender, d) when Aang arrives, there should have been several kids flying, same as in the cartoon, not just Teo, it makes no sense, and it fucking angers me. If your neighbour can fly, everyone will be standing in line at their door waiting for their own pair of wings. Any other outcome is factually impossible. And then copycats would appear, producing cheap gliders that break, kids would plummet from the skies to their untimely demises, and flying would be banned in Omashu. That's how humanity works. This grizzly outcome was avoided in the cartoon because they were a secluded community away from prying eyes, and even then every kid had a glider. You can argue that The Mechanist and Teo might have arrived into Omashu very recently , and that's why he's the only one flying. That would also explain how it reached the ears of the spy as something strange. So that's it, problem solved, right? Wrong! If that were the case, they'd still be newsworthy and exotic, everybody would be looking upwards every single time Teo flew by, everyone would be pestering The Mechanist 24/7 asking for gliders, and the instant a 2nd glider appears (Aang's) some entitled people might even get angry that someone else got a glider before them (as they would assume The Mechanist made Aang's glider too, because nobody else possesses that technology). It does not work, it can't work, it completely destroyed my immersion, it felt anti-natural. If you want to fix that, add a bunch of flying kids, and the spy arrives there following rumours of Jet. Instead of "There's a flying kid in Omashu", "There's someone actively attacking fire nation spies in the outskirts of Omashu, it might be the avatar." Similar premises, Zuko gets there by chance, following a lead that has nothing to do with the Avatar, and they run into each other by happenstance. So the rest can work almost the same way, except that there would be several kids flying, not just Teo, it doesn't work, it'll never work.

[@grelot7670]

We need to take in account that a lot of persons engage into the realization of One Piece are One Piece Fans. They care about the story, they desperately want the success of the show and really care about the opinion of Oda sensei.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

It's like each person working on it contributes their passion to make the project what it is :)

[@ehsannadeem3970]

I have always wanted to watch one piece but after Naruto and bleach, I was spent. The live action made me finish the whole show in one day and start watching the anime. Why? Because I just couldn’t wait for s2, I had to know. The moment s2 drops I am watching. I think one piece live captured the anime well. I think the live action is adapted from the OG material ie manga so the changes I see between anime and live action are fine. When I watched Avatar, I was hyped, they just did good one piece, so my expectations were high. I had watched the animation probably 3-4 times. The live show just didn’t give the same feeling, I didn’t feel what I feel watching animated show.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Really gets to how one team captured the "spirit" of the original, while the other couldn't seem to :(

[@thetwilightroadtonightfall]

I truly can’t say anything anyone else hasn’t already said. Just wanna say you guys absolutely NAILED it for both series. I audibly cheered at so many of your points!! And I even learned some new things about both of these series I hold near and dear to my heart! Thanks so much for making this video and approaching these live action adaptations with constructive, respectful frameworks and genuine enthusiasm!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much!! ❤️

[@pingpanther_tadum-tadum]

Oda gave the green light to Matt Owens to helm the production of the Live-Action manga because he knows Matt understands the manga's true spirit while still having a strong understanding of the live-action medium and what it takes to adapt it!

[@halfblood100]

For me, an adaptation should at least fulfill one of these aspects of the original media as a basis: the characters, the character arcs, the vibes, the story focus, the emotional focus, the world it takes place in, or the plot. And personally I think the vibes or feelings of the original story is the most important thing to stay the same. It can work to change the vibes if that is the only real big difference you do, and then shift things slightly to fit the new vibe or show how the original story was from an unreliable narrator. However if you promise that it will be faithful, you have to nail so many of those aspects.

[@alyssaz5692]

The episode with the tiara of the dragons was also the episode where Aang was captured by the Yu Yan archers and Zuko saved him as the Blue Spirit. I would also say that was when Zuko was just starting to have doubts about his mission to capture the avatar. At one point in this episode, he's laying in his bed on the ship, looking at the fire nation banner beside him, then he rolls over, turning his back on it. Also, after he and Aang got away, and Zuko woke up after being knocked out, Aang is waiting nearby and talks to him about how he thinks they could have been friends. There was a moment of hesitation on Zuko's part where you can almost read the wistfulness in his face, before he attacks. Even when he does, it's like he doesn't even try that hard, and he doesn't chase Aang when he runs off. I think it's another great example of "bookending" as you put it, like with the beam of light in the sky, only this one uses the imagery of the two dragons to bookend the development of Zuko and Aang's friendship.

[@FantasticMrFoot-hh5zp]

Another One Piece scene that came to mind is the Zoro/Kuina flashback. Kuina was always written to have internalized misogynistic beliefs, and they kept that aspect of her character in the adaptation rather than removing it to be more “current.” It’s important because Zoro needs to be the one to challenge these beliefs, and had they removed it entirely it would have weakened both characters.

[@harukaidouismyhusbando1104]

One Piece Live Action stayed true to the OG story Avatar Live Action strayed too far and hid behind amazing CGI

[@JeXiProductions1]

Loved this so much, subscribed. I agree with everything that was said, but one notable thing I'd like to add to the conversation (2 months late) is what they did in the Avatar adaptation which was so good I wish it was in the original. The way they gave Zuko that extra backstory, essentially saving his crew and and filling in details of getting himself banished, hit so hard. Really hope they learn more from the One Piece team before Season 2!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thanks so much! Glad to have you aboard 😁 And I think we both very much agree, those added aspects of Zuko's story were probably some of the best elements of the live action 👍

[@CalzoneSamosa]

No clue how youtube hasnt pushed you guys up in the algorithm

[@FrameOfMindBros]

We're working on it 😂 thank you!

[@trivialqed]

the keel analogy is so great imma use it everywhere i can now

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Glad it resonated!

[@Pams-22]

1:34:41 They start talking about One Piece Live Action 🏴‍☠️♥️

[@miroslavzderic3192]

all the cool scenes happen off screen, didn't know Blackbeard wrote this show.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thats amazing XD

[@Felicity_D._Shroom]

One thing that I think really demonstrates the difference is quality of the two shows is setting things up to build off of. The One Piece live action makes a lot of changes to the original but they are made deliberately in order to make future moments shine even more. For example a lot of people were upset Garp was introduced so early. However, because we spend more time with Garp and really see how hard he tries to keep his grandchild from being a pirate, once we get to Marinford it is gonna be so much more painful (no spoilers but you know)… On the other hand the Avatar remake constantly had the changes they made make future moments weaker instead of stronger like with Aang not running away and how that negatively affects his interactions with Bumy and his motivations and guilt thru out the show.

[@kamixakadio2441]

As a fan of One Piece for 2 decades, and a fan of ATLA for 1.5 decade, I loved both Live action adaptations, for different reasons 🗿

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Totally valid opinion 😁 I’d be very interested to know your favourite part of the ATLA LA was 💁🏼‍♂️

[@Wishy_Designs]

KZbin randomly recommended me this video and I am soo thankful for it! This was such a pleasure to listen to, all of it. The analogies you guys make are brilliant and logic and ideas behind the analysis are exactly how I feel about both shows expressed into words. It is insane. I'm definitely looking forward to more discussions like this!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

That's so kind, thank you! We're really glad you liked it ☺️

[@monster-enthusiast]

Even though I still don't like the OP live action, I see how well they succeeded. Especially from a series people said was "un-liveactionable." I've seen like 95% percent praise for the LA, and I did not have high hopes for the series lol. So I was pleasantly surprised and I'm happy about it's success, despite disliking it.

[@sabelotoda2]

Why did you not like it?

[@307nishchay8]

As long as LA one piece had that one piece spirit in it, i was always going to like it. Fck the visual effects....i just wanted them to get the story right and the feelings conveyed perfectly. And they succeeded.

[@monster-enthusiast]

@@sabelotoda2 I knew I wasn't gonna like it before watching it. I'm just not a fan of live action remakes in general, and I don't like when the source material gets changed unless it's an improvement. There were a couple of things that fell short for me and some others that felt a little out of character. (For example, when Luffy calls him Captain Usopp to make him look cool to the villagers.) Usopp is my favorite Straw Hat besides Luffy and I think they could have done a little better with him. Nami and Zoro also felt a little colder and less fun than they did in the anime/manga. It's always little things like that that bug me.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

seems to show the key to success is that heart and spirit of the original ❤

[@FrameOfMindBros]

​@@monster-enthusiastthat totally makes sense, if I hate ballet it's unlikely I'd be a big fan of the Berserk ballet... wait a minute... 🤔

[@KoreasTina]

It spoiled TLOK stuff. The focus on Kyoshi instead of Roku was stupid. Sokka was non-existent. Monk Gyatso lost his important and impact because he was in every scene (hyperbole). I could see the teleprompter in front of Katara. The actors were wasted.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Sadly I don’t disagree 😢

[@gerardwilliams7244]

The cartoon was one of the best pieces of literature I’ve ever participated in… the live action I skipped because I could just feel that it wasn’t going to be good.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Spidey senses were activated apparently 😄

[@madgoonproductions8406]

Proud to be within the first 4k of subs. Y'all are going places with this. Great content.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Ay thank you! Glad to have you along for the journey this early 😁

[@blackhalo317]

I’m only 30 minutes in and I’m enjoying the conversation and analysis. The discussion feels measured as y’all are taking the time to articulate what works and what doesn’t. It’s not just “this bad; me hate 😡” or “this is the best thing ever.” Though I enjoy less thorough reviews, this feels more academic in that it becomes a discussion and deconstruction of how we tell stories visually well and how the little stuff can add up to make a show or movie “meh” or barely enjoyable. I love videos and reviews like this! Keep up the good work!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much!

[@thevarietyhour8805]

I love the editing it really helps visualize your points. Way better than other podcasts that just talk.

[@jessicacristina737]

I'm glad you guys are back, always love to hear the analysis you bring about storytelling and the way its being portrayed lately

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much! We missed hearing from you guys in the comments honestly. It feels good to be back making things and having conversations with people who love stories too.

[@danielharmon15]

I mean I think it boils down to the Netflix Avatar team tried so hard to make an appealing show to a older audience new to the source material when in reality I easily got my parents into Netflix's One Piece (who to be fair wouldn't connect watching the anime) and HBO's The Last of Us (who wouldn't sit down and play the game or watch a cutscene compilation) but knew they wouldn't enjoy live-action Avatar with everything you guys mentioned.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Yeah, it’s so sad that it was such perfect family friendly AND deep source material that they completely hollowed out 😢 interesting that your parents got into the one piece live action 😁 I guess it shows that being “goofy” doesn’t mean being “childish” 💁🏼‍♂️

[@stairway_to_kevin]

This was a fascinating video and I enjoyed it completely. I love how you guys dive into it with a nuanced lens.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thanks so much! Stoked you liked it! More on the way here really soon 😉

[@zachriel137]

1:55:44 Toph was I think one of the fan favorites and her attitude technically might be changed or toned down or might even toned up by how the media are now

[@imperfectmyst]

Like I feel Bad for The Actors Who are passionate about the Show cause these are just kids who ironically act like their characters in real life more than the show!

[@zachriel137]

@@imperfectmyst yup

[@WillowDoux]

I cried with you and also found the Going Merry/Thousand Sunny analogy very fitting! Also interesting that you mentioned "passing the baton" to the actors: there's a beautiful video of Inaki, the actor playing Luffy, meeting Oda. This is already something special, because Oda lives a very private life, and it's made even more touching by the fact that Oda embraces him warmly, even though they don't even speak the same language, and in the end he gives him Luffy's strawhat, a literal baton pass :') I choose to not watch The Avatar live action, because trailers and promo prior to the realese gave me the impression of the show missing what made the OG Avatar great... Unfortunately, by the reactions it seems this came true. I don't mind adaptations changing a lot about the source material if they have something original to convey with it, otherwise it just seems pointless and like you said hollow. This is the first video of yours that I watch and I loved how introspective you were, subscribing!

[@harukanakamoto7]

I dont even pass through the first ep of ATLA LA, and im glad i didnt have to ruined my memory of the amazing animated ATLA😂 For the OPLA, since 13 years ago i really tried to avoid to watch One Piece anime because its too long, but since they announced the casting (esp. Zoro duhh) i tried to watch the anime and i fell in love with it. It took me only 3 months to catch up to recent eps. To watch the OPLA after the anime they really do the source material justice and im aware more people watch the original anime after they watched OPLA and fell in love with it. They really done a great job with OPLA, cant wait for season 2 and Chopper😊❤

[@arielleforbes5549]

This was such a refreshing commentary on the live action remake. I haven't gotten around to watching the One Piece adaption, but I've been deeply invested in ATLA's development. I also found that a lot of their storytelling relied on telling rather than showing, and that the shaving down of the original storybeats hurt the series. Great conversation!

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much!

[@U5mR]

Netflix had nothing to do with One Piece's success. That honour goes to ODA.. that's it.

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Oda is the GOAT, that's for sure

[@FrostyTheSnowPickle]

One Piece is adapting a show that spans over a thousand episodes. Avatar is adapting a show that spans 61. As such, One Piece is a necessary adaptation, being able to make the story more accessible to people. Avatar is an adaptation where there was nothing new to be gained from adapting it. There was no point. It's already short enough that people can watch the whole thing in a few days, and so good that you don't really need to make any changes or alterations to the story. There was literally no reason to adapt Avatar other than "Animation is for children, we should make a version of this for adults," and if that's the mindset you're taking into making an adaptation, you're adaptation is going to fail, because it shows that you fundamentally do not understand the show you're adapting.

[@brennanwn]

1:34:56 - 1:35:55 Oda is a key part of why this Live Action adaptation works

[@FrameOfMindBros]

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@10kaichi2]

I looooove your conversation and insightful analysis on this topic, keep up the great work

[@FrameOfMindBros]

Thank you so much!