Why Balancing in Warhammer Old World is so Hard

A short video about what I believe are some balancing issues in the current meta of the game.

[@NisGaarde]

I really like TOW, but it has some kinks. I'd love for infantry to be a bit more like in 6th or 7th. Things I'd immediately change: - Artillery should be "no armour save" - Fighting Rank should be "only 1 non-base contact support attack per side of the unit" (to discourage the comically wide units of TOW) - Maximum Rank Bonus of infantry units (regular, heavy, monstrous) should be +3 (as in previous editions) - Rule of 3 or similar limitations (to avoid spamming) - Miscast should be more dangerous (a more severe and chaotic Miscast Table)

[@TodouIota]

Agreed! Especially the first one is very weird. A full plate knight with barding and shield could potentially still save a cannonball which makes no sense realistically haha

[@oukt237]

Thanks for this! My personall rule for my O&Gs is to limit the fanatics every 1000 points.

[@TodouIota]

The pleasure is mine! And yea I think as a gentleman's rule players have to limit some things when playing only 1000p battles. (Like not a dragon in such small games. )

[@nichy777]

I think having the core selection be higher like 50% and the other sections being 25% would be helpful. It would limit the ability for crazy hero characters in smaller games. Also, I would love to see infantry with spears get the strike first special rule for the first turn of combat. That is more of personal preference!

[@TodouIota]

Understandable! But infantry with spears having first strike when they get charged then you mean? Now they get a +1 on initiative but maybe that is too little.

[@nichy777]

@@TodouIota yeah the +1 Initiative is so useless I hardly remember to use it. Especially since if they get charged chances are the other unit is going to get a +3 to theirs!

[@TodouIota]

@@nichy777 I'm thinking now, maybe when High Elf spearmen/Lotheren Sea guards get charged by zombies/skellies haha I think in this situation the elves will strike first!

[@nichy777]

@@TodouIota haha yeah you are problem right! Doesn't help me and my poor Empire state troops :(

[@TodouIota]

@@nichy777 True! Maybe in a very exceptional situation where you beforehand managed to lower the enemy's iniative🤔

[@MattTrussell]

Specifically for tomb kings, I think because their core stuff is so weak in Old World rules, you see a lot of players using the Smash Captain just so they don't get their army swept aside by anything that's I3 or better. And because of Step-Up rules, they have to go extra wide, which leads to Linehammer, making Tomb Kings feel like the poster child of Old World's rules jank. Plus, you know... it's one of the only armies you can (MAYBE) actually buy models for from GW.

[@TodouIota]

I agree but I do have the feeling that basic skellies have quite a lot of staying power for how much they costs since they implemented rules that reduces the amount of wounds you lose when you've lost combat

[@MattTrussell]

@@TodouIota A massive block of Cohort in the Royal army is actually pretty scary, being able to move or stand and fire plus having spears is great. They just suffer from the fact that WS2 means you're going to lose a lot at once, and then Step Up means you're losing twice as many attacks with your back row getting taken out of the fight too. So if you only run, say 7 wide and lose 5 skeletons, you've lost 10 attacks and now only have 4, most of which are probably going to miss. It's too bad you need to be thinking in 15-20+ wide. They just have a terrible combination of low WS, low Init, and wanting the second row to attack. I think you can make an army work, it's just that most people, especially those coming from previous editions, would rather play with elite blocks of WS and I 4-5 in 7x3, and Tomb Kings can't do that. They either rely on constructs or wizards + casket shooting if they don't play the Dragon.

[@TodouIota]

@@MattTrussell Yea I see what you mean. I kinda got the feeling that the dragon is an auto include to have the army being able to do some damage. I did manage to stall a lot with a royal cohort. Just challenging the enemy dragonlord several times haha

[@MattTrussell]

@@TodouIota Dragons are good for damage, but they're not as good as debuffing leadership and using the casket bound spell. Dragons' big thing is being able to tank anything on the board, so they can run up and engage the enemy dragon, keeping it from quickly deleting your whole army. All that said, I've found most people tend not to bring the big guns at 1000 points, because everyone realizes it's not much fun. I get the urge to play shorter games that you can actually finish in a few hours, but Games Workshop games have never been particularly good at being balanced under 2000 points.

[@TodouIota]

@@MattTrussell Smaller games are fun without dragons but I mostly play 2k battles. Normally I tend to finish a game in 4h even with filming but there is almost no other talking and just focussing on the game haha

[@qystein]

Magical items should not be able to give armour, ward, and regeneration saves to behemoth mounts.

[@qystein]

And only infantry blocks should give close order bonus.

[@TodouIota]

Well the good thing is that according to the latest FAQ you can only use one armour save. Say for example my TK lord has the Armour of the Ages, then if I want to use the full effect I have to use the light armour save and cannot use the full plate armour of the bone dragon.

[@MartyrDK]

Agree :). Thou A tomb King With bone dragon greatweapon and talisman of protection is. T6 9 Wounds. S7 AP2. 4+ 5+ 5+. for 389 points :o).

[@TodouIota]

Indeed! I love playing TK but it's just tough for some armies to find an answer to smt like that.. (Def in a 1000p battle)

[@MattTrussell]

It's even worse, since they can take the armor that makes you re-roll successful wounds. And then there's the vampire sword from the supplement that lets them fill up to full if they charge into a grunt unit.