Why bodybuilding judges don't care about aesthetics

Laying out some of the more plausible reasons why pro bodybuilding doesn't seem to place much emphasis on aesthetics.
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[@fitnetwork7350]

Arnold classic took a good step by paying extra 10K for the best poser.

[@markmayr6151]

I can dig it, brother! I always won best poser. :-) Ed Courney, RIP.

[@DeputyMcNuggets]

tbf, I think some years down the line, Arnold Classic would be bigger than the Olympia, and the World's Strongest Man competitions; given how it has grown and the effect it has had on competition viewerships.

[@barrykitchen8200]

@@DeputyMcNuggets yeah there is definitely more going on at the Arnold . I wonder how the Rock's show will be and how it will beat out the Olympia . His show will have the bodybuilding , strong man , MMA , power lifting and the line ups of wellness all the way through to open . Anything the rock touches turns to good .

[@barrykitchen8200]

Even smaller shows like Shawn Ray's and branch Warren's have beat posing . I was delighted when they brought classic back ( or should I just say bodybuilding ) . They should call the open class something else of its own .

[@DrSwole]

Interesting point. The golden era physiques were often the biggest, most shredded guys for their time. They’ve just become missed nowadays with the thicker-waisted mass monsters of recent years

[@markmayr6151]

Correct.

[@DrSwole]

TheLusianPopa very detailed analysis ahah. Yeah I think weighing in closer would help. The amount of fluctuation you can cause with water/carbs is huge

[@samraizshoaib585]

@Lucien I mean did Ronnie really do it for the AC? He did have a gut there still.

[@NaturalHypertrophy]

3:15 The Patrick Moore effect: looks amazing individually, gets dwarfed into oblivion when standing in the line-up

[@OilyLobster]

one could also call it the reversed steve kuclo effect

[@CraZyCatZDogZ]

Yeah but I can still understand why patrick wouldnt win. While he does look amazing hes still not comparable to a shawn ray, kevin levrone or a flex wheeler. Patrick still needs to work on his condition and legs in my opinion. Like the first year jay cutler placed second to ronnie Coleman. Ronnie was off and super bloated that year, while jay had a small waste and conditioned in pretty much all aspects. In other words patrick while aesthetic, still does need work brother. But I can understand what you saying overall

[@samanthabailey6473]

@@CraZyCatZDogZ not comparable to Shawn ray...... put their pics side by side

[@philmessina476]

Getting "dwarfed" by other bodybuilders usually means the other bodybuilders are taller. And, if getting dwarfed means being at a disadvantage, then the judges are being subjective, unless it's unanimous that taller bodybuilders are superior. And, if taller bodybuilders are favored by judges, well, then, they are not being objective, after all, because height is not something a bodybuilder can control.

[@CraZyCatZDogZ]

@@philmessina476 not necessarily. When you think about it the majority of the top open bodybuilders are from 5'6 - 5'10. Look at phil heath who is only 5'9. And the majority of the top 5 in recent years like roelly winklaar 5'7, dexter Jackson 5'6, william bonac 5'7. Even jay cutler 5'9. Dwarf as in muscle mass over aesthetics brother. Even shawn roden is only around 5'9 1/2 - 5'10. Look them up if in doubt. now if you were talking about the 90s and prior then height did play a factor. But after jay cutler won almost all top guys were or are under 6'0. Tall guys like cedric McMillan for example ain't placing top 5 bro. Think about it. If anything all the short guys are placing well in open. Even the Arab guy last year placed 3rd in the olympia and he was only 5'6 and brandon curry who won is only 5'7. They ain't tall lol.

[@bharatkaushal2518]

I would rather look like frank zane than Arnold, does that mean frank is better bodybuilder than Arnold in my eyes ......no.

[@philmessina476]

This raises an interesting question. What does it mean to be a better bodybuilder? I think we can quite safely say that somebody like Frank Zane worked just as hard and smart as Arnold; but, ultimately, it comes down to genetics. Maybe Zane was a better bodybuilder because he had to overcome more genetic limitations than someone like Arnold. Who knows? Ultimately, Zane simply could never achieve the level of muscularity, which Arnold achieved, even as an enhanced bodybuilder, who earned the nickname, The Chemist. Maybe the "open" bodybuilding division should go back to having the over 200 lbs and under 200 lbs categories (or over 212 and under 212), with the winner of each category competing for the overall Mr. Olympia.

[@harrydemkee912]

Bharat Kaushal I cant disagree but one drawback, I met Zane in the early 80’s and in street clothes unless you were a very keen observer he just looked like and average guy to be honest. I guess I’m vane enough with all the time spent in the gym I still want people to notice I have some muscle mass and just not another average guy if I had my shirt on 💪

[@bharatkaushal2518]

You all didn’t got my point ,bodybuilding is a competition of muscle ,thus anyone with better muscles should win of which deciding criteria is size and conditioning and not aesthetic.

[@harrydemkee912]

Bharat Kaushal everyone has their own opinion, In my opinion aesthetics should play a big part in the judging or else we will just see a huge amount of runway drug use simply to pack on as much muscle as possible without regard to aesthetics and we would then see truly freaky physiques

[@simonk449]

@@midovinci I think you've totally missed the point 😉

[@hugoleonardoamaral586]

Besides, if aesthetics would count for something, we would have all the same physiques over and over again. Besides, much of what makes a physique aesthetic is more related to genetic structure and muscle format, and you can't controls these things. On the other hand, conditioning, mass and mandatory poses can be compared.

[@eliasandradeschindler9402]

Actually a good point, i never thought about it

[@Irkkan]

Well written mate.

[@beerthug]

You must be a Branch Warren fan

[@Roper122]

Much of what makes a physique massive is genetic too. You still end up favouring certain physiques, just different ones.

[@MR12AMAZING]

Roper122 Conditioning is genetic too. Some guys naturally have thicker skin like Brandon Curry so it’s harder to come in shredded.

Dude your videos are awesome, thanks to your knowlage, I m learning how to read muscles, and positions.

[@DespicableBunny]

knowledge*

[@KevinMarchesini]

@@DespicableBunny o

[@KevinMarchesini]

@@DespicableBunny òí

[@KevinMarchesini]

Íiií

[@KevinMarchesini]

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[@gerryiannuzzi5122]

Danny Padilla comes immediately to mind. In 1981 most people would agree was as close to perfection as anyone came. Yet he wound up 5th. Any picture of him from that Olympia looks like he was hands down number one. Yet in the lineup next to the other guys he didn’t stand out as much.

[@markmayr6151]

That is when I first began in bodybuilding! Good job!

[@harrydemkee912]

Gerry Iannuzzi totally agree but in a line up a guy only 5’2” even with as perfect physique as his just gets overshadowed. I didn’t really understand that back in the early 80’s

[@beerthug]

That's a judging problem...or a lack of guts

[@markmayr6151]

Good job. Danny was awesome.

[@philmessina476]

Again, as noted above, if judges are favoring taller bodybuilders, then they are not being objective. According to the argument advanced in this video, judges want to be objective and judge physiques according to elements, which the bodybuilders can control, such as mass/muscularity and conditioning/leanness. Of course, bodybuilders cannot control height. Yet, if judges are favoring taller bodybuilders, or being punitive in their scoring against shorter bodybuilders, than that contradicts and undermines the whole argument that judges strive to be objective.

[@bigzac1295]

Just gotta say Tomn8er, as a long time subscriber I really appreciate the effort you continue to put into creating videos about new and interesting topics! I genuinely look forward to each video every week, keep it up

[@cristopherpino9689]

True

[@davidcipolla4036]

Yes I certain agree with this comment. I first started looking into bodybuilding via Lui Marco who I think did a tremendous job showcasing & explaining bodybuilding compared toe most KZbin channel. After seeing people commenting "Tomn8er" on Nick's Strength & Power and that Tomn8er is better and the best BB'ing channel on KZbin I decided to check Tom's channel and I'm absolutely glad I did b/c Tom blows away Nicks channel. Nick doesn't analyze bodybuilding half as good as Tom, where Tom knows the back ground knowledge/history, overall more knowledge on bodybuilding and can show the evidence as to why.

[@rdotmitchell]

I think this is part of the reason classic physique is gaining more popularity. A lot more attention to detail, posing and performance instead of how big you are and how much you weigh on stage. Classic picks up where old school left off imo.

[@JustArtsCreations]

it honestly makes sense, thats why we have classic! which is actually a hella good class! obviously they're no open class but still! great video

[@markmayr6151]

Agreed.

[@vasred4265]

Colin Wright Classic right now needs bigger prize money. I'd suggest that at a high level Men's Physique prize money should be cannibalized and given to Classic as the division at a high level makes no sense. However Men's Physique at an amateur level can exist to serve as a stepping stone for many. In a way, Open would be about Mass + Conditioning first, Proportions 2nd. And Classic would be Proportions + Conditioning first, Mass 2nd.

[@markmayr6151]

@@vasred4265 Perhaps we should get in touch with the master (Lee Haney) and figure this out. I can raise capital, but we need a true champion of the sport. Lee Haney is the man. Let me see what I can do. I am merely here right now because of this "virus" thing that has knocked our economy out and will apparently, destroy America as we know it. I need to utilize my skills and education right now on a different dimension. But you have a good heart. See if you can get Lee to contact me and we will figure this thing out. Enough of this "monster" crap. Let's get back to Athenia and the real heroes of humankind. Thank you. Mark

[@markmayr6151]

I will assure you one thing right now, when we restore bodybuilding to what it was meant to be on a "human" dimension, the money will follow. I left the sport because of the drugs. I have come back because of the "virus". LOL What the hell! Smile. I came back to what I really love. Now let's get this show back to humanity, and away from the beasts that sold their souls . . . to win a dinky hocker game.

[@JustArtsCreations]

@@vasred4265 i 100% agree with you, that sounds like a great idea to move that class forward. truthfully? physique gets shit on so much by outside observers that I don't understand why its still a thing on a pro level! totally agree with it being a needed stepping stone for people on an mature level though!

[@panchopuskas1]

It's true what you say. Judging has to be on something measurable....if not it just becomes a beauty contest.....and also people want to see the mass monsters and freaks which is why the open category is much more popular than classic physique...

[@markmayr6151]

Not really. People are just looking for "unreal" . . . and they are getting it to the athlete's demise. Bodybuilding will never be as great as it was during the Lee Haney era. At least they tried to hide the anabolics and androgenics. Perhaps, had they exposed them at the time . . . we wouldn't be looking towards monsters to win the game. But what about Lance Armstrong in cycling? Want me to go further? God bless you all. I really love the sport. I just have always wondered how we might be able to pull it back a bit and see what human beings can do on a "stand alone" basis. Without pharmaceuticals. Idealistic as I might be, it didn't stop me academically . . . and i will never stop loving the sport. But let's get real . . we need good support for this thing to go on. Lee Haney is the answer to try and pull things back a bit. He forewarned us all of things that were about to hit the stage. He said, "I am that physique," when questioned about his talent during his day on the throne. But he also said, "Should another one come along that I could not or will not beat, I will step down." And that, my friends, is the truth.

[@markmayr6151]

@sam singh Oh, thanks for that "High IQ" response. Now go out and do your street drugs? No, just kidding. I'm just responding on a "one time" basis. Just looking at the quality that is out there now as compared to "then". And you appear to be a little suboptimal. Look it up. Peace.

[@misternatural1338]

@@markmayr6151 lee haney in his time was a freak......

[@misternatural1338]

Proportion, symmetry, fullness,conditioning and what's most important that phil ushered in was completeness.

[@markmayr6151]

@@misternatural1338 Okay. I can see what you are saying. Let's just let them all do what needs to be done to win that 100K or 140K dollars. It is really easier on another domain. But you can't stop diggin' those radical bods, man! Pump em up!

[@DunkinBiscuits]

Literally can't disagree with anything you said here, am pretty drunk tho so my judgement may be impaired slightly :)

[@MrKowalskyfication]

Yo! Judge a show based off that judging system you created before! That would be a great video!

[@markmayr6151]

Shawn moved into a new dimension on the block. He had it all . . . but the "new age bodybuilder willing to dope up to new dimensions" came along. Bye, bye . . . Shawn.

[@niekblomberg]

Really like this idea, please do!

[@edge3220]

My biggest issue is I don't know who the judges are and why I should regard their judgement as superior to anyone elses. What qualifications do they have? Are they former-bodybuilders? Have they ever even lifted? I have the same complaint with any judgement scoring sport, like gymnastics, diving, etc..

[@Tomn8er]

Yup it's way too shadowy the way they operate. The judges have zero accountability

[@Vegeta68041]

​@@Tomn8er I honestly think men's physique should become that category that holds aesthetics over size. Greg said it on his Jeff Seid natty or not, if you look like Jeff Seid you should win men's physique. Men's physique is "supposedly", more of a beauty contest than classic. Supposed to be more so about aesthetics but they just keep rewarding bigger guys and guys like Jeff's size which is attainable naturally come dead last in Mr. Olympia. It would be better to have at least ONE category that you may be able to compete in naturally or on minimal gear. Also the judging consistency is bad. Again you can go back to Jeff, he won a pro show. Against other guys that also went to the olympia and then got last place against some of the same guys and guys that had bigger bulky physiques. How does that make sense? So basically men's physique is classic but with a smaller waist and shorts on. Pretty sad.

[@scottandrews8528]

9:02 Ronnie waves the flag patriotically 9:08 Immediately throws it on the ground 🇺🇸

[@ericricg8708]

Body building should be compared to building a home. Would you rather have a huge McMansion that looks weird and bloated made with cheap material? Or would you rather have a aesthetic home that’s still big (not as) but made of granite and stone, that looks like a work of art.

[@gainchasers7769]

3:22 keon pearson clone!

[@RB-sj6pd]

GAINCHASERS more like the opposite

[@alemarioluiginator]

9:34 levrone picked his trunks to match his tan

[@illwitness]

Lol

[@MrBoothyboy1988]

The best way to ensure aesthetics remain part of the judging criteria is to include waist size, thickness and v taper as part of the judging criteria. As well as also taking into account the delivery of the posing routine and specific poses such as the vacuum. Problem pretty much solved.

[@cimi93x]

Aesthetics is subjective. For example, i prefer the aesthetics of Dorian rather than Flex, cause i prefer the strong, grainy look Dorian brings. You can't judge a competition by aesthetics. Mass, conditioning and muscle fullness is objective, and you can judge a contest like that. Edit: i typed this before watching lol i didn't realize that's exactly what the video is about

[@gregorsamsa1364]

They could easily set up criteria which could be objectively evaluated and which would have the effect of bringing the physiques more in line with the sort of aesthetics which more people appreciate. Think about symmetry- appreciation for it is completely subjective but that obviously doesn't mean it can't be evaluated objectively. And symmetry is a very significant part of aesthetic appeal for most people. The fact that appreciation for symmetry is subjective does not pose any obstacle in objectively evaluating and rewarding it. Appreciation for it is subjective, but the question of whether or not it is present is an objective one

[@bluntandy]

This is possibly your most insightful video. Good job

[@philmessina476]

Man, this is eye-opening analysis, Tomn8er. The Lusianpopa made an excellent point, which you cited: aesthetics are subjective. That means judging would have to focus on elements which can be controlled by the bodybuilder: mass/muscularity and conditioning. Now, that you point this out, Tomn8er, I can see how the aesthetics were most likely coincidental throughout the human history of competitive bodybuilding. Virtually every competitive bodybuilder has sought to be the most muscular and simultaneously the leanest, or "most shredded" or "most ripped". I think this settles the ongoing debate about golden era aesthetics versus later mass monster aesthetics, at least with regard to professional judging. This is kind of sad, though, from my point of view. It's sad because I think most bodybuilding fans today can agree on which bodybuilder looks more "aesthetic". In such case, when most people are in agreement on the superior aesthetic, or which physique is "prettier" (e.g. Shawn Rhoden beating Phil Heath), then aesthetics seem less subjective and more objective. I don't want to surrender the Olympia to grotesque physiques just yet, though. In the case of Mr. Olympia 2018, it was patently obvious that distended stomachs are not worthy of Mr. Olympia. Hopefully, fans of "aesthetics", rather than sheer muscularity or size, can continue to hammer on objective features, which ruin popular aesthetics, like distended stomachs. Mass monsters tend to lack symmetry and proportion. Maybe the classic aesthetic can be objectively assessed after all.

[@HkFinn83]

Some good points but ultimately it’s not true that people, even ‘in’ bodybuilding, can agree on what is aesthetic. I’ve been following the sport for 20 years and even in that time what is considered aesthetic has changed. This new ‘bubbly’ or ‘three dimensional’ criteria that fans now talk about (I think it was Aceto who used it originally to justify Heaths dominance)...well a lot of people think that looks good. I think it looks terrible and making these guys blow themselves out on insulin and synthol to try to create it is the worst thing for the overall ‘look’ of the bodies

[@niguel6583]

I hate how people always complain about the mass and lack of aesthetics in modern era bodybuilders. If u want aesthetics there’s freaking men’s physique and class physique

[@steviewang4102]

11:23 good god the back double bicep looks absolutely horrible from this angle. Shawn looks like he lost 50 pounds and Dexter's about to have an alien pop out of his stomach.

[@alemarioluiginator]

The only one keeping it tight its this year's mr o, william bonac

[@cristopherpino9689]

Its been like that since late 70s and 80s

[@danasaeed9018]

That Is A Beautiful Explanation, Well Done Tomn8er!

[@davidbarber2010]

That Y. You Go. To the. Gym To. Work out your gut ti good. Not to see. Body buildier With. Big gut Old. School body builders look better Thanks 🤩

[@therealoorage]

I think what Sergio said on DesktopBodybuildings KZbin interview was very telling, he said he was the best poser in the open class at the moment, not because he’s a once in a generation poser but because nobody else gives a damn. Feels like most of the top guys have given up on a truly aesthetic package and place priority on the objective points you talked about in the video.

[@Tomn8er]

Yup that's a big part of it. But even if they did try, most wouldn't be able to pull it off. Josh Lenartowicz looks frankly ridiculous trying to replicate some of those 80s posing maneuvers despite being big as a house.

[@enricosace]

Nice job clearing up some of the judging thought process. You pulled up some great photo examples too. 👍💪

[@khalidamajoud4114]

That was a strong and well articulated argument there. Spot on!

[@kidney7162]

Dude you are the most rational and professional bodybuilding channel on KZbin. Keep up the good work!

[@marxmaxmuscle1]

best channel going! love the holly grail reference this close to easter!

[@briandelia7699]

Shawn is too small in comparison to dexter. if they were next to eachother it wouldn't be good. still love rays physique tho

[@MrInzombia]

if he wasnt too small to be compared to flex levrone and dorian, then dexter’s size aint shit to Shawn ray.

[@laurikotivuori1585]

@@MrInzombia But he WAS too small to be compared against Flex and Dorian? He was never even close to beating dorian, and he only beat Flex when he had bad conditioning. In 98-99 Flex stomped the fucking floor with Shawn

[@laurikotivuori1585]

@@MrInzombia Too small and too narrow standing next to dexter.

[@imcoleyourenot8391]

Lauri Kotivuori this ain’t it chief

[@oskarklingest5682]

@@MrInzombia well he was too small... cus he lost - everytime. he got compared to them bcs he competed in the same era as them, not bcs he was as big. so thats a terrible argument.

[@turinho]

You can't objectively tell what's a aesthetic, well theoretical you could by applying art&science but that's not my point here, but surely you can tell what's not aesthetic at all. let's take bloated gut or gynecomastia. at least you could give heavy penalties for gyno or pregnancy guts. i mean i don't care how shredded you are, if you look like a 7th month pregnant woman than it's a k.o. imho.

[@oskarklingest5682]

i definitly agree with this to an extent. you can often, but not always easily, tell if someone is NOT aesthetic, and bubble guts are a no go

[@davidunoi7099]

100 percent AGREE! This has to be one of the most important videos made in the Bodybuilding community on youtube right now.

[@torynichols2413]

It's supposed to be a freak show but there has to be a quality too, if not Markus ruhl would have won every show. If you ever saw a prime Dorian in person or Ronnie at his best you just know nobody is going to beat that. I was at the 98 Olympia when Ronnie won for first time and they were already chanting 'Ronnie, Ronnie, Ronnie' when they were announcing like 6th place. First call out when he turned around and sat down on his glutes the crowd laughed, the show was over he was so much bety

[@pooyafitness]

This channel is underrated.

[@DocHoliday596]

Spot on as always.Arnold was considered a mass monster for his era.Classic physique division is a step in the right direction for sure.Because every fan wants to see amazing aesthetic physiques.But we also want to see the freaks that look like final bosses lol.Like you said even guys like zane would look over the top in terms of attractiveness for the vast majority of people so it only really matters to bodybuilding fans.Like you said rewarding posing more even im the open class would propably be our best bet for achieving the best of both worlds.

[@heavymetalfitness2091]

Ur right. They don’t operate that way. It became obvious when Yates became Mr. Olympia. I like to call him the death of bodybuilding. But then again bodybuilding is subjective.

[@whiteroseproject7207]

2nd best back in history but hes the death of bodybuilding?

[@heavymetalfitness2091]

Rick Sanchez C137 You don’t understand

[@whiteroseproject7207]

@@heavymetalfitness2091 you're right, I have no clue how a bodybuilding fan could say Dorian wasn't monumental in making the sport better.

[@whiteroseproject7207]

Lol I had some dumbass the other day tell me 03 Ronnie looked like "doodoo". Literally the greatest physique of all time an these fucktards want to talk shit cause "no vacuum pose waaaa" the shit they love wasn't even mandatory poses back then why should they be mandatory now?

[@heavymetalfitness2091]

@@whiteroseproject7207 I dislike his physique. Im a 60s-80s bodybuilding fan. Your opinion on the greatest physique isnt the same as mine

[@tixodioktisdeviant46]

Man, one of your best videos! And that’s saying a lot cause you make great content.

[@s.d.0]

This must be shown as an awareness vdo to all the bodybuilding fans around the world.

[@JosipK93lk]

Hey Tom. Another well-made opinion piece. I enjoyed watching it. Also, I'd like to add a few things, mainly about assessing the physiques we encounter in bodybuilding. There are 3 very important "main elements": MASS, CONDITIONING and AESTHETICS. All of them should be well expressed through the fourth - POSING. 1. Mass is pretty straight-forward. Size and density play a role here but a judge should also asses as to how those muscles fill out the specific frame. Is this bodybuilder displaying an "equal" level of muscle density throughout his body? Or are his kgs (pounds) seemingly all in one spot (Johnnie Jackson as a top heavy vs Tom Platz as a bottom heavy BBer). So, to summarize, are you a truly big guy, or a guy with a, let's say, truly big back? 2. Conditioning encompasses vascularity, separations and detail visibility as well as appropriate levels of subc. water and fat . We can't all have the same feathering and details visible on our bodies but we can do as much as possible to show them. Thinning out the skin and showing off some popping veins can greatly help a guy who otherwise doesn't have deep cuts and clear separations. Vice-versa. 3. Aesthetics are a bit harder to understand but it's not exactly rocket science. In short, no, it's not the same as "beauty" because that would be unquantifiable and therefore just a foolhardy idea of ranking people. Is a small stone cottage with rustic wooden windows more beautiful than a Victorian mansion, a classic duplex with a balcony or a big, high tech glass skyscraper? Hard to say, we wouldn't all pick the same (not the best analogy, I know). However, there are some things we should have in mind about aesthetics. Shoulder to waist ratio, symmetry from left to right as well as top to bottom, structural defects (an injury maybe) and flow or "flow-breakers". Flow is that statuesque quality of a physique where nothing seems out of place by protruding, hanging out or spilling over. It's very hard to look aesthetic while sporting a flow-breaker gut. Synthol abuse (and other SEOs), lumps or bumps, those are all flow-breakers. After all that, we can look at the posing routine. Honestly, an argument about not being able to judge a routine just because they are not all the same is just plain bad and lazy (It's the one I often hear,...not saying that you're making it) . It's like saying you can't really know who won a football game because play styles were different. It's not about what poses and sequences you choose but rather how well are you executing your routine and showing off your strengths while hiding weaknesses. No, I don't see a Branch Warren gently displaying his physique whilst "hold me now" plays in the background. Neither do I think Bob Paris would be a great dynamic poser to the tunes of Limp Bizkit. Posing routines are individual display of talent and imagination in order to show off a physique in the best possible way. Maybe you can't judge the style, but you can surely say whether it accentuated the physique or if it looked sloppy and generic. So let's say, considering all the parameters I've mentioned, you give 2 points for posing routines, 1 for mandatory execution (no freestyling or personalising here!), 3 for conditioning, 3 for mass and 3 for aesthetics. It would be an interesting method to pick a winner! Cheers.

[@FilipDropulic]

Luka 💪🏻

[@veravukmirovic532]

Aestetics is easy, really. Wide shoulders with a thin waiste. Theres nothing more to it.

[@Siberius-]

Good stuff. A big blocky waist will generally help a bodybuilder, interestingly. Also if they can fill out those obliques, they can look even bigger. Not that it's quite as aesthetic. To say the least. The ones who are just more blocky, can make the small-waisters look small overall. Despite having roughly the same amount of muscle. And yea Shawn winning was less about rewarding, and more about punishing.

[@mitchellhayman381]

I hope you're trolling because your comment is absolutely stupid

[@mohammadsufian7890]

5:29 Well, Arnold was aesthetic though. There's something in his physique that made the judges choose his physique over others. And yes, everyone even to this day, dreamed of having body like Arnold. He literally inspired ordinary people who had no idea or aim of bodybuilding to go to gym

[@MrKid351]

"There's something in his Physique that made the judges choose his Physique over others" Yes, his muscle mass and conditioning. Look at Arnold 1975. He dwarfs everyone, and those guys dwarf amateur Bodybuilder who dwarf regular people. He was a mass monster for that time and still somehow most aesthetic?

[@ImYourHuckleberry_29]

@@MrKid351 1974 was his biggest ever

[@alemarioluiginator]

He was the biggest, besides him being taller makes him dwarf everyone just by standing there without flexing, and also politics because he shouldn't have won the 1980 mr o

[@oskarklingest5682]

​@TheLusianPopa okay it seems i have to clarify some pretty simple stuff. I hate when ppl claim that someone only has a 4-pack: EVERYBODY genetically has a 6-pack. Som 8 some 10, but no human has 4 unless its some very rare genetic muscle mutation. Just find a picture of him stretching his stomach, its easy to see. And yeah (iT wAsNt ViSibLe), yes it was just look more closely, and it was definitly not bcs of fat. The key stellar to aesthetics is far from only determined by the midsection. Its many many factors and a very important one is the FLOW, LINES and PROPORTIONS. Why do cartoon characters always look so crazy, but yet appealing. They have unhumanly proportions. waist small, short stomach, but loong upper torso (chest), wide shoulders, long arms (weird one, but its true. like simeon panda, he looks insane bcs of his proportions too), huge arms compared to the midsection and so on. Its all about how it looks proportionally to eachother. A cartoon guy could be way bigger than the massmonsters on stage today, and still be very aesthetic, so i also dont like when ppl claim size has something to do with aesthetic. NEVER - proportions. (i know u guys didnt claim that) And Gacha Guy i believe you're wrong, i know exactly what Mohammad Sufian is talking about: arnold had a look. very unorthodox, something ppl hadnt seen before. Now im not gonna claim he per say had a small waist, but the way he showcased himself made up for it, and its not totally big either. Yes big hips, but tight midsection, always sucked in. not a big waist, but wide hips. But arnold had a look. a crazy look, he had that kinda short torso, but only his stomach area was short, his chest hung loow and was huge. He had a huge full ribcage, and when not hitting a full vacuum he would SUCK air INTO the chest and ribcage, to make it explode off the waist. then he had huge arms, and it looked insane compared to his torso. he had very big arms for his time. yes his tri's were somewhat underdeveloped compared to bi's but had great insertions and good potential, and were not bad he just didnt showcase them that often. He had very pleasant lines, a great flow when standing a little slanted he let the lines showcase his aesthetics. He had his totally own look; and Yeah yeah "Everybody has that", but arnolds was much more special and caricatured and cartoonish, and yes sergio was maybe more cartooish in the fdb, but in the side chest arnold arguably still has the best today. (arguably). in his posing routine, in his OVERALL PRESENTATION, he presented himself like never seen before. he had amazing singular bodyparts, some of the best in bodybuilding still to this day: chest, biceps, erector spinae, ribcage: and i know thelusianpapa was arguing for that it was unbalanced and that he was improportionate and some bodyparts where developed more than others, but ITS THE IMPROPORTIONS - THAT MAKE THE PROPORTIONS. Had tom platz "taken" some size from his legs, and balanced it out into the upperbody so it was as big as his legs, he would still just be a guy slightly smaller or less aesthetic than the others. maybe 1 year he would have won, but his legs being IMPORORTIONATELY BIG made him a legend. if your arms are out of proportions to ur torso and body it looks insane, it looks sick, amazing. arnold had plenty of those. plus he was taller, bigger bones, he was a great figure for bodybuilding. So!! To rap it up. Aesthetics are far from as simple as a 6-pack and a midsection. "There's something in his Physique that made the judges choose his Physique over others" is 100% a true statement, he DID have a very special look, and freaky proportions that made him so legendary (we still remember him from his biceps and chest, but if they had been a smaller, and his shoulders and tri's a bit bigger, we probably wouldnt have remembered him for those parts in particular). And NO, Gacha Guy: its definitly not only mass and conditioning thats the reason in his case. Idk how you guys are to argue with. Most people get stubborn, they would rather kill their own dog before admitting or agreeing with a random guy on the internet that disagrees with them. I write this so confidently bcs its thoughts ive dwelled immeassureably a lot on. he was magnificent, had many flaws, and far from my favorite bodybuilder. But in case you dont agree with me, or at least never would tell me, then please just google some pictures of arnold and see what im talking about. u dont have to write it, just see if u can see what i see, and appreciate and enjoy the sport of bodybuilding, and the thoughts that follow.

[@ABD5667]

One of the best videos I have seen on bodybuilding judging!

[@2diggrave]

Dear Tomn8er. I think you have one of the best bodybuilding content in youtube if not the best. You are very articulate, give credits for your suscribers when credit is due, have an sharp eye for bodybuilding and you know how to be objective and have perspective when it comes to your preferences. Your videos are well prepared and it's obvious that you take a lot of time to make them and don't worry much about making money because you're passionate and it's a blessing for us, bodybuilding fans. Too bad you do not make as many videos as other bodybuilding channels, but you chose quality over quantity and I salute you for that. Kepp the good work. Greetings from Morocco.

[@guygraham8016]

Great vid Tom. Youve come a long way with your commentary.

[@xamavila6687]

There is nothing magical about the 70s, bodybuilders just did not take so much gear as nowadays. That’s it.

[@Sosa23rd]

The problem is a lot of people THINK they r bb fans but it's really not their taste... e.g. if u can appreciate Big Ramy's for being wide af and having freaky looking body parts and still having a good midsection and taper, ur a real fan... but if u say he looks ugly cuz his legs freaky looking or he looks like a *monster*, ur not a real fan and maybe u should follow mens physique cuz u clearly dont really like size or a freak factor

[@Tomn8er]

Not sure it's fair to say they aren't real fans, it's more just a difference between casual fans and hardcore fans. Appreciating the freaky physiques is generally more reserved for the hardcore, but everybody's gotta start somewhere! I remember when I first began watching even a prime 98-99 Coleman disgusted me to an extent lol

[@christianekman]

How about if you don't like how Ramy's legs flow? His thighs are large af, but his calves are too tiny in comparison and just messes up the flow entirely. He either needs bigger calves, or smaller thighs. The way it looks now is really disproportional.

[@nf1]

Completely agree with this. The only "fix" I can think of is adding in a few more mandatory poses that show aesthetics. Like a vacuum

[@CommonSenseBodybuilding]

I think of it like the car world: Super cars were once elegant, beautiful machines and now speed and harsh angles are preferred for the shock factor. However luckily there still has to be some aesthetic consideration in bodybuilding to get to the biggest stages but not nearly enough to stop the men’s physique mutation.

[@mikemccormick8115]

“let’s be real here” ok, here’s real; We dont live in a culture of aesthetics anymore ANYWHERE in American culture; arts, music, movies, TV, social media, sports (sportsmanship), or anywhere in entertainment. Its been a change in the public not the judges. Entertainment industry provides the public with what they want, what brings in the money. Don’t blame the entertainment or media. Its a lack of taste and class in the people. They are getting what they want and buy into.

[@bychen5011]

1998: Ronnie shocks everyone 2008: Dexter shocks everyone 2018: Shawn Shocks everyone

[@chinmay6249]

If they provide an image template for what a bodybuilder should look like; then, aesthetics would count. If they told each competitor that the standard is the shape and proportions of; let's say Doriyan Yates. Then the posing, the symmetry and shape would matter. Then, the posing and the aesthetics would be OBJECTIVE. The real reason why Mr.Olympia doesn't care about posing, is because what attracts crowds is freaks. Not people who look good on stage. That's the only way they make more money. Bigger, freakier, uglier and tumor like muscles. Mr.Olympia competition has become a whore.

[@Al.j.Vasquez]

Hate me if you want, but Bob Paris is more aesthetic than Frank Zane. Zane is smaller and slimmer, but Bob had rounder muscles, without getting much bigger, he still had amazing lines without sacrificing the athletic look. Frank Zane is very good, but he's not the most aesthetic bodybuilder ever, he's overrated in that aspect, and the vacuum alone displays more about his Body control, than his aesthetics.

[@bestdocincanada6620]

Khotta Bogard Exactly I think the same, Bob Paris to me is the pinnacle of aesthetics not Frank Zane

[@autismwalk6855]

I think symmetry is highly tied-in with aesthetics, so I believe that aesthetics are looked at by the judges in that regard.

[@groundcontrol6876]

Hitting like and commenting so the algorithm puts this out there more. People today need to watch this video and listen closely because too many don't understand how bodybuilding works. At least when referring to men's open.

[@kovar2344]

2:41 Ronnie Cutler or Jay Coleman

[@markmayr6151]

We will NEVER see another true bodybuilding hero. Only those that will sacrifice their lives to drugs on a new dimension. Hey, Bob Paris had it right a long time ago. He saw the drift into the new dimension. He was "gay," (and I didn't know about that when I was competing); but he was correct. Bodybuilding took off in a new dimension.

[@mariaconkerboy]

People seem to forget. Tomn8er included ,that the judging system is NOT THE SAME as in the 90s and prior.

[@benscott326]

Is “conditioning” really even that subjective though? These days a bodybuilder is said to have good conditioning if he’s just totally depleted of water, but true conditioning should be about body fat %, which has markedly risen since the 90s

[@kristofszekeres1375]

Well. There are a lot of people out there, who says: There were so many better BB at the stage with Arnold, who should have won instead of him. They only forget 1 major thing. Back then, it was not just about, the quality of body, and mass, they really looking for the ideal male. And Arnold had that charisma, above everybody, only by his appearance. He also was very good, as a BB at the stage, maybe 2 guy (Sereg Nubret, and Farnco looked better in today's judges eyes) But to be honest they were 170 cm short "beta males" next to Arnold. What girl want to have a shorter guy next to her? So Arnold had that overall Charisma and appearance, and also a v ery good body proportion, small waist, big, wide chest, shoulders, and back muscles, with symmetry. Today, the judges want to bring objectivity in the competition, but the only thing, they can bring into it, is mass+condiitoning. And this ruined the modern Bodybuilding.

[@christianekman]

What are you talking about? Arnold's waist was definitely not small by early 70s definition. He deliberately often posed with his side towards the judges to hide the fact that his waist was blocky in comparison to the other competitors. Check literally any pic of him next to Sergio Oliva and you'll see that Sergio has a much, much trimmer waist than Arnold.

[@kristofszekeres1375]

@@christianekman Oliva had smaller waist definitely, but woth those flat arms... I am not impressed by them.

[@christianekman]

@@kristofszekeres1375 you can be impressed or not however you like. The point still stands that Arnold's waist was not his knockout feature at the time. By today's standard, yes, his waist is tiny. Not so by early 70s standard.

[@cristopherpino9689]

Bodybuilding was never about aesthetics to begin with like how people make it out to be. Like with everything, its going to change, imo the 60s and 70s was the first bodybuilding time period that went mainstream and i feel like ever since then people have been stuck with the idea that BB is about aesthetics bc those guys were "aesthetic" and not freakishly huge

[@jumpman3210]

Cristopher Pino thats why it’s declining

[@BaldLlamaGaming]

Posing is like the surveys companies read but dont care about

[@harrydemkee912]

I wish I had a witty or interesting reply but I agreed with everything. Contests now awarding money to the best poser or the people’s champion are a step in the right direction, ultimately the judges with get tired of the negative feedback and things like esthetics and posing will again be considered more important in my humble opinion. It was interesting meeting some of the golden era bodybuilders back in their primes in the early 80’s. I was expecting to meet giants from looking at the magazines of the day but then meeting them in street clothes after guest posing routines the majority of them were sub 200 pounds and seemed like rather small guys to me at the time, I’m sure that’s nowhere near true now with many hitting the stage close to 300 pounds

[@auricoro]

Honestly it’s gotten to a point where it’s no longer mass and conditioning, it’s just mass and ᶜᵒⁿᵈᶦᵗᶦᵒⁿᶦⁿᵍ

[@cncaliguy09]

Truth it is a shame the IFBB doesn't care to properly jduge about presentation, posing, or even symmetry round. It makes even BB less mainsteeam and a lost art because guys don't pose or try to and just want to show up big, full, and shredded.

[@johnathanvale8634]

I don't think that the judging rewarding the mass game was a bad thing. I think them supporting the mass game at the expense of conditioning and bloated midsections was a bad thing. I have no problem with Dorian, but I do have problems with them rewarding 2000, 2004, and 2005 Ronnie Coleman for coming in looking like a water buffalo, and letting Phil come in with a gut every year after 2013 and be rewarded off of conditioning and development of the muscle. All you have to do is reward v tapers and the body relative to the size of the midsection. That will stop guys from using insulin and that will fix the conditioning and gut problem

[@joe225c]

Amen.It's ok for them to factorvin mass, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYTHING ELSE.

[@johnathanvale8634]

@@joe225c I think it's just insulin. You didn't see these muscle guts until guys started taking insulin. Dorian didn't have a gut problem until 1997 and he started insulin in 1996. And that applies to Every bodybuilder that has taken insulin.

[@vlairwinters1412]

This is a nice content men! One of my fav. Lee priest is getting dwarfed compared to other mass monsters, that's why he never won an olympia title. Keep up bruh

[@giovannimittino4769]

That's why they created classic physique

[@martinpedersen2650]

on one hand I love the who would rather look like argument, but on the other fucking Ronnie, he is the absolute GOAT.

[@CD-pq1yv]

As you correctly observe - the scoring criteria (and Weinberger in particular) are one reason why the open class has limited appeal. It’s also the reason why the classic is becoming much more popular.

[@REVOisMYname]

Aesthetically speaking, Ronnie’s shoulder to width ratio was similar to Flex’s because he was that much broader. So it’s unfair to say Ronnie was unaesthetic outside of some stomach distension. Branch Warren on the other hand had waistline as wide as his wingspan and legs that made up 90% of his body, 0 aesthetics

[@mickeyconga7451]

And Tom I agree with most of the things you say but I beg to differ. In 1991 Haney was not just more aesthetic then dorian. But was bigger as well. The pic you used has Haney turned and Dorian in front of him, If you watch the vid you will see Haney is bigger. Haneys upper body is bigger then dorians especially the chest. Backs are comparable neither one had great arms and dorian did have bigger legs,esp calves, but dorian thighs had no separation. Im an aesthetics guy but if you watch the 91 Olympia u will see that haney was bigger/better.

[@tito16ism]

We talk so much about judging and not the judges of bodybuilding Who are the Judges and whats their qualifications to be a judge?

[@petebyworth7855]

Excellent video, once again, thank you. To my mind you are the most insightful and articulate commentator working in this area on KZbin. It’s not that I necessarily agree with you in everything all the time (I have been a keen fan and followed the sport closely from buying my first Muscle & Fitness mag in 1979), but I do always recognise your consistent approach, supporting your contentions eloquently with excellent photo/video selections and an often searing eye for pertinent and revealing comparative analysis which has often challenged some of my own convictions and ideas about the sport. Thank you again (and that was a tad of a long sentence?!😂)

[@fakof6231]

This is really insightful. How ever frank zane was like 200 lbs and a 3 time winner so aesthetics did have a very important role more so then now.

[@stephenshw2262]

If they want to bring aesthetic back, they should bring in bodypart ratios as part of the judging process, ie the waist has to be 1.5 times smaller than shoulders, no gh gut etc..

[@MrInzombia]

4:07 Look at dexter get absolutely obliterated by kai green. Lmao He may be the most winning est body builder ever but when other guys like kai where on, they would mop the floor with dexter. But I guess the kids of the future will forget this and think dexter is a better bodybuilder because he won an olympia in 2008.😒 The details become blurred and people will forget the truth after a while. Its sad.

[@kingryuga9710]

I mean dexter is a way more sucesful bodybuilder, so you could argue that he is a better bodybuilder. Of course If you compare their best versions Kai would win on todays judging criteria. But in terms of consistency Dexter mops the floor with Kai. And thats the reason why he is so sucesful. Its not because he has an outstanding physique but rather how keeps his physique on an outstanding consistency for so long.

[@marcosbona8260]

That's dexter's worst pose and one of kai's best

[@MrKid351]

Lets see the most muscular pose and then speak again.

[@marcosbona8260]

@@MrKid351 absolutely

[@marcosbona8260]

@@MrKid351 or the back lat spread and side chest

[@dwaynechaps5690]

Big news for fans of Tombr8er's videos!! A special 12 hour long video solely dedicated to his favourite body part of all-time! Our one and only Tombr8er stayed up for 5 days straight studying this specific body part, and he ended up analyzing and rating every single pro bodybuilder that's ever lived. He also shows the the progression of this body part starting from Arnold's era, straight through to the current crop of bodybuilder's. So make sure your one of the first people to watch Tombr8er's 12 hour special on his all-time favourite body part..... GLUTEUS MAXIMUS!!!!!

[@Tomn8er]

lol 🤣

[@aasserelzoghby6781]

Fam like brandon curry is some what aesthetic also shawn rhoden, ronnie in his prime and also phil had great aesthetics in his prime

[@beerthug]

Ronnie had great aesthetics, lol...do you know what that word means?

[@angussutton3440]

beerthug Ronnie did actually have a rather nice looking, aesthetic physique in his earlier days. In my opinion he sacrificed his aestheticism by roughly 99 to 2000

[@beerthug]

@@angussutton3440 'ronnie in his prime' is what was said. Earlier Ronnie was more 'aesthetic' but his balance suffered. Unfortunately it's an objective decision, thus bodybuilding will never be a sport.

[@angussutton3440]

beerthug fair enough, I do agree that in his prime where he was winning Olympia’s he wasn’t aesthetic. Just a shame that it’s so rare that the kind of body that is so obviously more appreciated and valued by the community (flex wheeler, Tom platz pre much anyone who’s aesthetic lmao) isn’t by the judges

[@beerthug]

@@angussutton3440 The judges are the issue for sure! Shawn Ray has been saying it for years, if they never change than the results will never change either. Steve Weenerberger would disagree, but then he'd be out of a job. I remember years ago, him standing up and arguing with the crowd at the Night of Champions. Guess his ego was hurt that everyone didn't agree with him. We cut out cancer, so why stop there!?

[@adamhsr]

Shawns so much better than dexter. If he did that well against Dorian for years im sure hell do fine with dexters so called size lol. He would smash him. Especially now in these times where size isnt everything. Shawns conditioning is way better. In saying this i get what the video is saying and i agree. But shawn is still better.

[@MrInzombia]

amen to that. Dexter acts like hes phil heath and kai green’s size.

[@adamhsr]

@@MrInzombia what is he like 220? The guys only Body part that's bigger is his arms which is synthol (proven) and his maybe got more back width. Pose for pose it might be close but shawn would win no doubt. The only way you would win shawn is outright muscling him. And even then a prime Kevin lost to shawn a few years. Its just stupid to think dexter would win. He would outright win some poses yes, but no way altogether.

[@MrKid351]

Dexter would win. Look at tomn8or video from 2 weeks ago where he compared them.

[@adamhsr]

@@MrKid351 no he wont. Shawn improved his back and side chest along the years so getting photos of him from different years is pointless. They need to stand next to each other for a proper comparison. Look at how good Phil looked regardless of his stomach when he was alone in his last Olympia. Yet when he stood with rhoden you can tell rhoden was a bit better. Look at how good shawn is even next to Dorian. 200i and 2009 dexter would probably come close fot obvious reasons. But he wouldnt win imo.

[@rockywaters9592]

I think the only aesthetic quality that should make a difference in a bodybuilding contest is whether the midsection is tight and in check, because the rest is genetic and that wouldn't be fair to give say a flex Wheeler the title over a Dorian Yates just because his small joints and rounder muscle bellies naturally gave his physique a more aesthetic look.

[@Primathys]

On that note, can you do an analysis of why Frank Zane won when he was in the lightweight division?

[@Tomn8er]

It's tough to say. I wasn't alive back then lol and pictures are very scarce for those old Olympias.

[@Balmung812]

They won't care about it because ones you put a classic physic beside an open bodybuilder competitor in the Olympia, it will make them look so small and thin.

[@medianation3008]

Dude this video was just perfect! Amazing how you explained all of that so clearly!👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@miserere_me9168]

only aestetic that plays role is shoulder waist ratio

[@fjlurccdru4192]

The bigger most shredded with the best back will always win. Simple fact because it's harder to become. It's easier to become esthetic smaller frame body. But if you have mass with some Symmetry and a killer back ala Ronnie Coleman.

[@fatboy5926]

Can be tough at times to tell who has the better “aesthetics” but there been times in the past when if judges penalised guys who were clearly off bloated guys and whatever they would still give the smaller more aesthetic guys hope. Guys like Shawn Ray shouldn’t have to ruin their aesthetics to simply get bigger. How many guys have we seen get bigger but certainly not better

[@KevinM88TR11]

Nice video Tom. Come on guys we want to see freaks. Huge amounts of gear, genetic potential, training w shredded condition. We need a 400lb guy damn near dead on stage.

[@Tomn8er]

Haha I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet. All it would take is someone with Big Ramy's muscle building genetics - cept who's 6'4-6'5" instead of 5'9"-5'10"

[@jaredholaday7280]

Fantastic video. Just one major issue with it: we don't get enough content! We demand more from you!

[@lesnuitssanskimwilde883]

Aesthetics are not completly subjective. Who's going to say a hummer is more aesthetic than a ferrari dino or a mercedes 300 sl? Who's going to argue that the distended belly of coleman looks good? That 1992 Paul dillet looks great. He's the proof you can be huge and still aesthetic.

[@Tomn8er]

Not completely no. But even when you figure there's no way someone could disagree, there usually is. Case in point: someone who already commented said they think Yates was more aesthetic than Wheeler. I personally can't see it, but can't say that they're "wrong" because it's a matter of opinion.

[@lesnuitssanskimwilde883]

@@Tomn8er Yes I saw that comment too. Actually I'm sure there are people who think the hummer is the best looking car ever and that coleman waist is totally fine but that kind of guy should not judge a bbing contest. It may be not politically or socially correct to say so but some people just have bad taste.

[@MrKid351]

@@lesnuitssanskimwilde883 Remains an opinion though. To them you have a bad Taste and shouldn't judge a BB competition. It can never really be fair.

[@lesnuitssanskimwilde883]

@@MrKid351 I see the logic but I don't buy the argument that anybody opinion has the same value. If that was the case we could ask anyone in the street to judge the olympia contest. The bodybuilding judges are not anybody. They're supposed to be expert, to have some kind of highly trained eyes to know what is best. So we're supposed to admit their opinion has more worth that the one of the average guy. I know nothing about olympic skating. Am I going to consider my opinion has the same value than the official judges even if I only consider the artistic evaluation? Certainly not. Let's talk for example of the guy who think yates is more aesthetic than wheeler. Why is his opinion not worthy? Because if there was a debate between him and tomn8er about it, his arguments would not stand long against those of tomn8er. He would not be able to back his claim off. BBing is highly subjective but it's still a matter of proportions, symetry. Whatever can be said, for example a severely torn biceps is still a torn biceps and can't look good.

[@christian_urocar]

11:42 damn dex back looks crazy this year ..

[@youl0se0508]

Most interesting bb chanel on youtube !!

[@cncaliguy09]

I don't care about what IFBB judging.Been following BB for more than 20 years beore Ronnie even won Mr.O. I don't care when guys like Arnold Ronnie, Phil heath, or Yates won 6-7-8 MR.O shows, most the streaks or wins were questionable and full astericks. I prefer aesthetics, shape, lines, and separation. It is hard to sell or promote lines and aeshetics but you can sell mass in form of more products, supplements, and PEDs.

[@helmutha5589]

I see what you are saying there, mass and conditioning is the only relatively objective standard in otherwise subjective sports. Makes sense

[@ohmy9261]

Really good video Tom, one thing to add would be if shows were solely judged on Aesthetics we would always have the same type of physiques with the little waists so there would be no diversity. Just compare Ronnie's physique to Dorian, or Phil's to Haneys.

[@pradidorai]

I agree and disagree to your point made... You told Arnold won because he was bigger and better conditioned... Actually kinda no.. lot of Arnold's titles were controversial. If size does matter Frank Zane standing under 200 pounds couldn't have won 3 titles... Though Tom platz had the size and perfect conditioning franco won that year. 2019 Hadi should have won or should have at least been the runner up. He had the size and better conditioning in the lot. You have to agree to the fact that Mr. Olympia is filled with politics and nobody actually can understand. Strictly my personal opinion though. No offense please.

[@Tomn8er]

Yes politics plays a role as well there's no denying that. But it's too often used as an excuse by people who don't know any better.

[@pradidorai]

@@Tomn8er absolutely. I said politics because so many good bodybuilders never even got a chance to step on the IFBB stage let alone winning it like Jeff King.. he participated in AAU new Jersey was not allowed to compete. Phil Hill was also there. Known for his crazy arms but never placed well in the Olympia. Dave Padilla, Mike Mentzer so many examples for politics spoiling them don't you think.

[@samraizshoaib585]

In the beginning did the dude (second comment) really say that the 90s were about small waists and taper? Brother, Dorian and Ronnie were never small waisted. Okay sorry Ronnie did have a small waist.

[@brickbithousebbh7529]

Would love too see more praise and reward for posing its kind of what bodybuilding was all about starting with sandow trying to copy the ancient statues of Greek gods and so on

[@donsanders5611]

There Actually is an IFBB rule book for Judging. They simply ignore it.

[@thereyking9571]

What I notice is that this Era is Over Obsessive in being Bigger.

[@benaiahwright937]

Watching this video made me realize I've totally missed the point of building