Why Did God Kill Ananias and Sapphira? Were They Christians?

[@terryp12345]

I appreciate your analysis on this. It is a difficult passage that I do not fully understand. However, I would say that I am not convinced enough to make a conclusion one way or another on this. Jesus also said "get behind me, satan" to Peter. Yet at the same time, he was called a disciple (follower) of Jesus. I guess I would not be too dogmatic about it, given some of the nuance of the language there. I probably will just leave this passage to "someday in heaven I will understand it better" :-) Your view certainly gives me something to think about. Good analysis of Acts 4-5. It really does make one think more about that passage.

[@Lottieloves287]

Yeah, when we read the Bible we need to ask God for wisdom and understanding. We need to read each verse and analyze it carefully.

[@staaudio]

Let the Holy Spirit guide you into all the truth as you have the promise to be taught by God. Look to Him alone. Learn from Me, Jesus says. Yes, check the text and what these Greek words mean and how they are used with the Lord illuminating and guiding. Beware of men who have inserted and deleted, and twisted and distorted! Check Colossians 2 for the warnings of this too. In Jesus, are the treasures of wisdom and understanding. He gives it to those who fear Him. But those who don't, are left in spiritual limitations of the darkened eye. Luke 11:32-34.

[@tysonshirey1]

Excellent brother. God bless you for sharing. A lot of preachers love to use this one to heap fear and condemnation upon their congregation in order for them to give more money or”tithe”

[@Christ_saves_sinners]

Thank you for this commentary on these verses. I started to question the way this is teaches recently.

[@gmetayern]

Thank you for this clarification. You have some preachers preaching to Christians that they can get killed by God for certain sins.🙏💗

[@AngleFamilyFun]

Well explained

[@Marie181318]

So, were Aaron's two sons in Leviticus 10 not qualified priests? How could Ananias and Sapphire lie to the Holy Spirit if they were unbelievers? The episode may tell us more about God's holiness than A and S's spiritual status.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

Simply put, an atheist can tell a lie just as well as a believer. The real question we need to be asking is how could Satan feel the heart of a believer? Did God not remove our old heart of stone? Did he not give us a new heart? Does God not live in us? And if God lives in us, do we actually think he is sharing this temple with Satan? 1 John 5:18 Tells us “the evil one cannot touch us”. So how can we say the evil one cannot touch us, yet turn around and believe that he can enter our heart? With all the respect I think it’s a stretch to believe that the evil one can occupy space in the heart of one of God's children, especially when you consider it’s the place where the Holy Spirit resides.

[@lanabowers5332]

At the first sign of the rise of Agrippa, Simon Magus was deposed as Pope. His fall is recorded in the story of Ananias & Sapphira, who were both rebuked by Peter for financial wrongdoing, & 'fell down & died ' (were excommunicated), the usual fate of a fallen Pope & his associate. Spiritual death, not physical.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

The word Pope it's not anywhere in scripture. Every human being is born, spiritually dead. You cannot die spiritually twice. I assume that you're not implying that they were spiritually dead, then, born again (after having become believers), and then spiritually died again. I'm assuming not, because that would certainly be a cult theology.

[@JayWest14]

I like this reading better.

[@valharnik]

Love you brother. 🙏

[@johnwashburn3793]

My Bible does not say that God killed them or how they died. It only says they "gave up the ghost." It also doesn't say whether or not they were believers. We know from the gospels that Peter was impulsive and outspoken. He later wrote that God is not slack and is unwilling that any should perish. MY QUESTION IS how do you think Jesus would have handled this situation, especially in light of the woman caught in adultery?

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

Well, let’s consider how Jesus dealt with the woman caught committing adultery versus his words to the Pharisees who are rejecting him. 1-the religious Jews that were denying Jesus, were told. If they even so much as looked with lust, they would be guilty and worthy of punishment of the fiery hell. He doesn’t seem to give them any way out. And these guys probably did not even commit the physical act. It was just looking. 2-then we come to the woman caught in adultery. She physically committed the act. But she believes Jesus. Jesus says I do not condemn you. What a difference in response. No, I know summer quick to bring up Jesus his words “go and sin no more”. Which in a sense is really ridiculous that they would. It’s not as if Jesus will tell her to go and sin. Only a full would think the heart of Jesus is not that we would sin no more. And to those people, I submit, the following: if the woman did stupidly, make the very bad decision to commit adultery, again, Jesus would gently grab her by the hand, look her in the eye, and again tell her he does not condemn her, and, of course, ask her to go sin no more. There is now no condemnation for those in Christ. And that first does not change, even when someone stupidly continues to make the same bad decision.

[@johnwashburn3793]

@@jesuswithoutreligion I believe my question was how do you think Jesus would have handled the Ananias and Sapphira situation if he had been there and not Peter.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@johnwashburn3793 it's difficult to know for sure. We know that Jesus did not run around killing people in his earthly ministry.. He was more interested in saving them. [John 3:17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. God. But the bigger point that I am making is that they were not saved, and the Scriptures plainly tell us that. The woman committing adultery apparently did believe in the identity of Jesus and therefor was saved. So I do not believe we can draw analogies there.

[@johnwashburn3793]

@@jesuswithoutreligion I believe that Peter matured in his thinking and understanding, as we read in 2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slack...but is long suffering, not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance. I thank you for your time.

[@ChristMySolidRock1963]

This was hilarious! Hardly anyone catches that Satan filled Ananias' heart a lot like he did Judas Iscariot's. Besides, if I was was punished as a believer I'd be joyful because I was going home to heaven. Sounds like incentive to sin more to me. No, chastening is the loving correction of the Lord and punishment is for the wicked.

[@staaudio]

The issue is not whether Ananias and Sapphira were "Christians" or not. It was that they were struck dead by God for lying to Him in the presence of His abiding children. It would be better to have a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the midst of the sea than to skandilizo (offend) one of these children that believe in Me. Great reverence for the Lord came on the people that saw this event and heard of it. Many came to the Lord. Satan entered their heart to lie to the Holy Spirit. Peter said Sapphira "agreed together to put the Lord to the test". God kills and makes alive He says. He does not change. Fear the Lord. Why is it that so many are diminishing this aspect of God in the name of a pseudo grace?

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

I can promise you Satan is not entering the heart that the Holy Spirit lives in. God is not sharing space with Satan and that is a very bad theology. It is absolutely important whether or not they were Christians. God is not the author of death. He is the author of life. He did not come to take our life, but rather save it. If God was killing Christians over sin that would make him a liar for claiming that he has forgiven our sin and taken it out of the way. You fear the Lord? With all the respect that would tell me that you are not perfected in God's love. Perfect love casts out all fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears has not been perfected in love - 1 John 4:18 With all due respect, you are doing anything but declaring the kingdom. You are denying the cross and what it did for us. People who run around teaching that Satan is in the heart of Christians and that God is killing them so they better live in fear are most likely not even believers, but rather part of a cult or some other demonic group. Please do not bring that evil DNA to this channel.

[@staaudio]

​@@jesuswithoutreligion Yes, I love and revere the Lord as we are told to do both in scripture and by the Spirit. Hebrews 12. It is written! Serve God acceptably in godly reverence and awe. For God is a consuming fire. God repays, and vengeance belongs to Him. Yes, people cross the line and receive their due. We are not given grace to continue in sin. I love Jesus and declare His Word despite being SLANDERED. The cross is the power of God unto salvation to them who believe. Praise the Lord. We are not to treat the precious blood of Jesus as a cheap aftershave and trod it underfoot doing despite the Spirit of grace. Hebrews 11:29-31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. It's written. Again, the issue is NOT if Ananias and Sapphira were professing Christians or not, though they came to participate in sharing of their temporal goods for those in need. They feignedly, hypocritically, fraudulently deceived all those present who were in Jesus Christ. God would not tolerate it and He judged it then and there. That is His prerogative.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@staaudio My friend you definitely need some real serious guidance in your interpretation of Scripture. If my response doesn't make full sense it's because you deleted your last post. Nonetheless this needs to be said. While we shouldn’t walk (keyword walk, not live) in darkness, we all stumble in many way. Just read the letter to the Corinthians and we quickly realize we see an entire group of Christians walking in darkness. Making bad choices. This idea that God might be revoke forgiveness has absolutely no biblical grounding to it. The scripture says that God will NEVER leave us or forsake us. The scripture say when we are faithless God will remain faithful. Scripture teaches that we have eternal salvation. Eternal means without an end, so if you could be forgiven one moment and not the next, that would make God a liar. And I don’t believe God is the one who’s lying here. I hope God answered your prayer that the heroes will receive the word of truth because he will stop posting this nonsense if he does.

[@dansmith2863]

​​​@@jesuswithoutreligion It is better to have never known Christ than to know him and turn your back on him. 2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? If you cannot lose your salvation then how can you get a worse punishment after you have counted the blood that sanctified you as unholy. Past tense, you can be sanctified then turn and received a worse punishment. It would have been better to have never known Christ.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@dansmith2863 Thanks for the question. It’s actually almost crazy how easy it is to address it, but what is crazier is how many people don’t see what’s really going on in this letter. I have said for years that this is the most widely misunderstood and wildly mistaught book in all scripture. Before we tackle any of the verses is something we both need to either come to terms and agree with or disagree with. I will challenge you to comb through the first 10 chapters of this letter and point out even one verse that hints about OUTWARD sin. Show me a verse that talks about lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, or whatever. The truth is, the author makes no mention of this type of sin, and the only type of saying you will find him mention id inward sin. Specifically, the sin of unbelief. This letter is being written to a group of Jewish people. Indeed, it is true that they’ve heard this message. They’ve been given the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Many people are giving the knowledge, but the question is, what do you do with it? Do you let it take root? Many people go to church, and they hear the message and then they know what the way of righteousness is. And that way is that no one comes to the father, except in the Son. But the question is, do they accept that way or do they go back to their old ways, which, in their case was the temple, animal, sacrifices, and lifeless systems, that we're only a picture of Jesus. And it would’ve indeed been better had they never known him? WHY? Because if you were someone who heard the truth, discovered that Jesus died on the cross to rescue us, and you fully know this information, and then choose to reject him as the only way to God, how much more severe wore the punishment be for you that it will be for the person who never even heard the good news? You’re focusing on these people who claim to know Jesus, but missing the point. Did Jesus ever know them? There are many people in the church today who do not believe the message they are hearing. Jesus was real, and they would likely claim they know who He is. Meaning they’ve heard this news about Jesus being born of a virgin, dying on the cross, being resurrected. But deep down in the heart, do they really believe it? Because, while they may know, Jesus, at least, in their minds, Jesus doesn’t know them. But since they’ve heard this good news, and in their hearts decided to reject it, it would’ve been better for them, never to have known him.. To be clear, they are many athiests who claim to know Jesus. They do not argue, even in the slightest that he was a real person. That he claimed to be the son of God. Most of them, don't even deny that he died on the cross. And that since they know him. But when it comes to the resurrection, and him have the power to be the propitiation of our sins, well, that's where they stop. For this reason, Jesus does not know them. So these Jewish people who have heard the good news have decided to turn back to their vomit. I assume many will wrongfully assume that their vomit is their outward sin. It’s not. Their vomit is the law. When they turn from Jesus, they’re turning toward something. They’re turning back towards the system that they formerly choose. They reject Jesus for the temple sacrifices of bulls and goats. They are trampling under the foot of Jesus, because they are rejecting the free gift of salvation in exchange for an old covenant that no one will be found righteous through. You’re basically spitting in the face of the Son of God in exchange for the blood of animals as the method of cleansing their sin. Then we get to Moses. Moses brought in the law. Anyone who stumbles at one point of the law is guilty of it all. Through the law, no one can be found righteous, not even these Jewish people. And the point is if God will punish you eternally because you ignore the law of Moses, how much more punishment you deserve when he sends his only son to rescue you from the law of sin and death, only for you to say “no thank you, I’ll take Moses’. Jesus is the end of the law for all who believe. When we receive Jesus, we are saved by faith, not of ourselves, but rather a gift. Through the law, it is an all or nothing proposition. There’s no gift. Everyone under the law will be found guilty. What an insult when you were doomed under the law of Moses, God sent Jesus to die a bloody death on the cross, to save you from your sins, only for you to say no, thank you, I don't believe the message of the cross, and I'm heading back to the temple to slaughter an animal instead. So if you’re going to chase after the law, you are insulting the spirit of grace period. Because you don’t want anything to do with Jesus, but you want to be married, and united as one with Moses.. How does someone count the blood that sanctifies us as unholy?? Simple. The blood of Jesus is holy. It cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Anyone who calls on him shall be saved. It’s the people who deny that the blood of Christ is holy and able to cleanse us from all sin, and choose the law of Moses that are counting the blood that sanctifies us as unholy. Remember, the audience is Jewish people. The first 10 chapters only discusses outward sin. The language is very clear, and you don’t have to commit intellectual suicide to see it. The first 10 chapters is addressing Jewish people who have heard the good news. They have tasted it. But in the end their choice was 'no thanks I will take the law of Moses'. They have trampled over Jesus. They have insulted the spirit of Grace. What better way to insult the Spirit of grace, then pushing a message that the blood of Jesus is enough to save you, but it’s not enough to keep you saved, sealed, and secure until the day of redemption, or that you could be presented as blameless. Unfortunately, the way this letter is being taught is literally leading people not to trust Jesus, but instead to focus on their our performance, instead of the performance of Christ on the cross. In other words, the way it's been taught by some people is saying "yes, Jesus died on the cross for your sins, but believing that that is true is not enough, because if you sin again, he will change his mind and revoke the gift". You're literally encouraging other people to chase after Moses, human effort, instead of trust in Jesus for righteousness. Brother, it’s all about faith. It was back then, and it is today. He had a group of people who were obsessing over human performance as a way of getting right with God and maintaining it, which, by default, was ignoring the work of Jesus. And we have a group of people today we’re doing the exact same thing by twisting this letter. I want you to notice, you’re not going to find language like this used in any letter written to Gentiles. This was a very specific letter to a very specific group of people, addressing a very specific problem. *UNBELIEF*

[@TheSpadre]

The incorrect message is that God Killed Ananias and Sapphira. Jesus would never have done this and neither would God.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

On one hand, I absolutely would acknowledge that there is no mention of exactly who killed Ananias and Sapphire. All we know is that they dropped dead. However, I will say in my opinion, it was God. But since it’s not clearly stated, I would not be dogmatic on that for view. However, I do think it would be inaccurate to say that God would never do that. In the old testament, we see times when God called the Jewish people to go into cities and kill everyone. Especially, if there was any threat to the lineage of Jesus. I think it would be correct to say God would not kill a Christian. Which I guess is the point of this video. I do not believe that either of the husband or wife were believers..

[@marcusvanrensberg6060]

God did not kill Ananias and Sapphira, the holy spirit the winnowing fork/staff of God, is the one who killed Ananias and Sapphira The staff of God was used by Moses to lead the Israelies out of Egypt. The unbelief in Jesus christ who is the Eternal Spirit of life is unforgettable, It is the holy spirits job to convict one of sin and testify of christ that give us life Eternal. ♥

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

Thanks for sharing your comments. We always appreciate those. While I do believe that God was in someway involved with the death of Ananias and Sapphire, the Scriptures actually do not tell us that God, or the Holy Spirit killed them. I'm not real clear on where you're coming up with this idea that a winnowing fork/staff was involved. I do not believe there is a single scripture to support that.

[@paulahill3884]

The passage didn’t say God killed them. I can understand stand what you are saying with every thing else, because 1 Tim 9 says the law is for the unbelievers and rebellious.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

Yet I've heard that before, and I understand why you might think that. But let's all be realistic. If this was not the work of God, there would be absolutely no point in making the case that Ananias dropped dead, and then his wife dropped dead. I don't think we have to commit intellectual suicide to draw that conclusion, and I'm not so sure that this would just be some wild crazy assumption. Immediately following their lying to the Holy Spirit, they immediately drop dead. Not one of them. Both of them. The only other alternatives are that they were murdered, or they both had a massive heart attack and died on the spot. We can assume with certainly one of the three likely happen. Looking at the context of what we're reading, I don't feel like it's a stretch. And I don't know that I would honestly want to have a big debate over exactly what caused them to die. I think we need to focus on the bigger picture. The bigger picture is dealing with this misteaching that God killed Christians. :)

[@paulahill3884]

@@jesuswithoutreligion In the Old Testament, when people did things against the law, they would stone them. They could’ve been struck or stabbed like they did to the people at Mt Sinai. They killed them for making the golden calf.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@paulahill3884 You are talking about life under the law. No one is arguing against the fact that under the law the wages of sin was death. We are talking about CHRISTIANS under a new covenant. Christians are NOT killed. We are forgiven. The one who believes is not judged (let alone killed).

[@paulahill3884]

@@jesuswithoutreligion Right. My only point in bring that up, was just to say that that’s a possible way that the dropped dead instead of God being a factor. Remember Peter was accused and confronted for mixing both old law and grace. I’m not disagreeing or challenging the remaining portion of your teaching …..only the part of God being responsible since the text doesn’t say it.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@paulahill3884 I understand where you’re trying to come from. I do however think it’s important to note that I did not make a big issue out of how the two died or who killed them. The focus was almost entirely on whether or not they were Christians. ❤️ PS Peter was accused by Paul, not God. :)

[@TheGianluman]

It was clearly Peter to put them to death. Maybe not with his own hands, but as instigator.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

Thanks for the comment? Do you have a supporting verse to defend 'clearly'? Nonetheless, it doesn't really change the point of this message. The message is that these were not believers that were killed for lying to God. The message is that they were unbelievers and that God does not kill His children.

[@TheGianluman]

@@jesuswithoutreligion it was known in the early century of Christianity. For instance, Jerome of Stridon, who was a biblist, theologian, historian and translator into the Vulgata, also Church Father and Doctor of the Church, in his Epistle 109 denounce the _severitas Petri necantis Ananias et Saphira:_ the severity of Peter in killing Ananias and Sapphira. Early Christianity was aware that Peter did put them to death. Those are details that likely couldn't be introduced into the NT. Just a subject for thoughts.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@TheGianluman With all due respect, I do not put my stock in what men say if it cannot be supported in the Scriptures. That said, Jerome of Stridon would need to show us the scriptural basis for such a teaching. There are lots of ‘biblists, theologians, historians, and translators’, and the disagreements are so widespread that we end up with an endless supply of denominations. I mean this respectfully, I am not going to build a doctrine that is not found in the Scriptures. There may, or may not be truth to this, but unless I can receive a biblical foundation I’m not buying it as pure truth. But I think more importantly I would circle back to the original point of this message. It’s not about who killed who or why they were killed. The article is about whether or not these are children of God. And I believe they were not.

[@katdumore535]

Hey bro I do not think it was God, If it was the word would say so. Compare this story with the death of Achan in the Bible and it’s pretty clear who killed them. Ps love your videos!

[@gingercat7061]

It is because blasphemy of the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

And to be clear, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not lying, greed, or withholding money. It is rejecting Jesus

[@gingercat7061]

@@jesuswithoutreligion i see, but in the sense, ananias lied to the holy ghost, his heart is filled with evil.

[@gingercat7061]

@@jesuswithoutreligion so is it considered as blasphemy to the holy spirit?

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@gingercat7061 you can lie to God. It's not a smart thing to do, but God is not going to kill you because you lied to Him. The only way your heart can be filled with evil is, if you are an unbeliever. All believers have new hearts. The old hearts were removed. This is why that story tells us all the believers or a ONE heart and ONE mind. Telling us that, if Ananias, his heart was filled with evil, he clearly was not of one heart, and one mind with the others were believers.

[@gingercat7061]

@@jesuswithoutreligion i see, so ananias was not a believer from the start, yet he just pretends to be

[@johneli495]

No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig. Same with this story. Attributing such horrible things to the Holy Spirit doesn't make it better

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

I edited my comment because I may have misread it. I'm trying to understand if this is an attack against my explanation of for the way other preachers are describing the story. Please feel free to clarify.. Thanks!

[@gracepeace4563]

👍❤

[@SongoftheBride]

Which Jesus do you preach? The One who gave us two "LAWS"? The One Who warns us through the parable of the seeds? The One Who warns 5 churches in the book of Revelations who have started with Him but have strayed? There are many different Jesus's in the world today, just as Jesus Himself warned us about. And He also warned us about many other things, that certain groups want to minimize, add the caveat "But don't worry if you don't obey Jesus. There's always a get out of jail free card, and He's not really too concerned about what we do after we get that "card" into our hands." Jesus is a HOLY God. And the other believers feared HIM after Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead by the Lord. We have no indication from scripture at ALL that the couple were not believers. In fact, in selling the extra property they had to meet the needs of other believers is more than we see in the typical group of "believers" today. You have no bases to conclude that the couple simply were not believers. Have you any extra property that you have sold for the purpose out of love for "other believers" to meet their needs? In the same way, we also have no basis to conclude that a sin "unto death" as spoken of by John would happen only to those who never walked with the Lord. On the contrary, it is a warning to those who are - have nothing to do with the unfruitful deeds of darkness or those who perpetrate them, lest we become like those who perpetrate them. What about Jesus' warning concerning those who He will welcome into Heaven - those who responded to people who were hungry, needing clothing, needing shelter or in prison? Simple measures of kindness, obedience to the second COMMAND of Jesus, will be awarded to all believers according to the decisions they made. What about Paul's warning to Timothy concerning false knowledge, and those who have WANDERED AWAY FROM THE FAITH (i.e. having walked IN THE FAITH)? We have been given nearly 60 commands from Jesus. He keeps track and still considers them of utmost importance, even when many carelessly brush them aside and say, "Ah, but He forgives and His commands don't really matter." Should we carelessly sin so that "grace" will abound? No we are called to a perfection for which the POWER of God will bring us up TO the standard, if we are filled with the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of the Father to do the same works. You are preaching a different Jesus. Your Jesus who does not match the Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus who commanded MANY things for important reasons, and Who does not take lightly those who go around saying, "Don't worry about what Jesus said to do or not to do. His forgiveness will cover your disobedience." I encourage you to stop preaching, sir.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

I do not feel compelled to go back-and-forth with your cult message, nor do I owe a defense to your baseless rhetoric founded on no scriptural legs. But I will leave you with this, it is abundantly clear that you will not have confidence on the day of judgment day. You have doubts about your salvation because your focus is on you, not Jesus. When you read scripture you see burdensome commands, while the children of God see Jesus. Love. I do know this...... No child of God whatever encourage someone who loves Jesus to stop preaching. But if the message of the goodness of God offends you, let me encourage you to avoid this channel. As for us, we know in love Jesus and will not be distracted from his goodness by the religious egos of prideful men like you.

[@davidlee3806]

At the end of the day, they are believers but fake ones. Any seemingly true believers can die like the plants growing on rocky ground or choked among thorn bushes. OSAS is heresy indeed.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

I honestly think that the people who teach we can lose salvation, or just as much a cult as Buddhist, Jehovah’s Witness, etc. And to think, this guy think you can be a ‘true believer’ but a ‘fake believer’. That is literally not possible and you’re trying to tie in a parable way out of context. The fake believers in this parable or not equally believers. My friend, one thing I discovered that is consistent with your group. You don’t really trust Jesus. In fact, I've always noticed that your group rarely mentions his name while feverishly obsessing over human performance as your core discussion. I only allow your cult message here in hopes that maybe your eyes will be open and the truth will seek in and you might inherit the kingdom before it is too late. Right now, my friend, you’re doing anything but trusting Jesus.

[@tendaimsimang8630]

Not true. Gods judgement always visits his own first. It was the Holy Spirit in Ananias and Sapphira that killed them. All who have the Holy Spirit are Christians ‘Romans 8:9’. Therefore Ananias and Sapphira were Christian’s who fell away, they were apostate, it’s simple. We all know that there will be a great falling away from the faith. ““I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.” ‭‭John‬ ‭16‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

Thank you for your comment! Let’s put your response to the test using scripture. YOU: Gods judgement always visits his own first. SCRIPTURE: He who believes in Him is NOT JUDGED; he who does not believe has been judged already - John 3:18 But your claim is that Ananias and Sapphira sinned, so God punished them in the most severe way. DEATH. SCRIPTURE: There is NO FEAR in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with PUNISHMENT. The one who fears is not made perfect in love - 1 John 4:18 If God chose to punish Ananias and Sapphire, wouldn't it be because of sin? This implies that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross wasn't a complete payment for our sins, suggesting that God would continue to punish us. Essentially, you're saying there isn't true redemption for believers in Christ. You are saying any security in your salvation is completely dependent upon you’re avoiding lying (sin). YOU: Ananias and Sapphira were Christian’s who fell away, they were apostate, it’s simple. There isn't a verse that mentions someone becoming a Christian and later departing from the faith. A potential misconception might arise from the letter to the Hebrews, addressing Jewish individuals who didn't accept Jesus. They shifted from the message of Grace to the teachings of the mosaic law. Many often misinterpret the book of Hebrews, mistakenly thinking they were believers. I urge you to examine the first 10 chapters to see if you can find even ONE reference to outward sin. I'm confident in posing this challenge, believing you won't locate such a reference. However, you'll come across the mention of one distinct sin: the sin of UNBELIEF. YOU: We all know that there will be a great falling away from the faith. ““I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.” ‭‭John‬ ‭16‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬ That is a very distorted translation. This verse was not referring to Christians falling away from faith. It’s referring to falling away from living a godly life, and making poor choices to sin. The proper translation is. SCRIPTURE: These things I have spoken to you so that you will not be led into sin - NASB Scripture: These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended - KJV Lastly, how can you harmonize your perspective with the assertion in Acts that all believers were of ONE heart and mind, yet, by your comment, Ananias and Sapphira were simultaneously filled by Satan and had evil minds? Both situations can't coexist if Ananias and Sapphira were true believers. So, I think we can call this one pretty clearly. You believe that a believer can lose salvation. Because that’s the only way you could explain your view of Acts. And I respect your decision to believe that way, but I think it completely undermines and devalues the work of the cross, and it rejects what Jesus did for us. You cannot hold your view and believe that the blood of Jesus paid for sins. You are literally presenting a works based salvation. A salvation that is only retained by avoiding sin. And I cannot meet you in the middle on such a lack of faith in our creator, who gave his life for us. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast - Ephesians 2:8-9

[@tendaimsimang8630]

@@jesuswithoutreligion Okay so was Peter a true believer when Jesus said to him “get behind me satan”? Let me ask you what does it mean to fall away? From what exactly? You fall from the faith. Satan fell, Adam and Eve fell. It is very possible to believe in God and then stop believing in God. Here are some examples… “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the ‘faith’ by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬ ‭ “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6‬:‭10‬ “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” ‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭ YOU: Ananias and Sapphira were simultaneously filled by Satan and had evil minds. No one said the they were “simultaneously” filled with satans influence, you said that. They most likely had a change of heart(satanic influence) at some point after Pentecost and “erred from the faith”because they coveted after worldly possessions. God is warning us that it is indeed possible to wander from the faith if we miss place our desires. We are saved in life so long as we believe. And belief is not just a profession, it is a full life of actions aimed towards the will of God. As Jesus so eloquently put it “you will know them by their fruits” Ananias and Sapphira became a part of the body of Christ(Christians). But sadly they began to put their needs above the needs of the Church(body of Christ). You could say they became cancerous cells in the body of Christ, and we all know what happens to cancerous cells, you cut them off. And that is exactly what the Holy Spirit did. “And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭30‬ ‭ Our faith today is weak, the spirit barely dwells in us. If we were filled with the Holy Spirit I’m telling you we would be convicted and feel the suffering we cause creation by the sins we commit everyday. But we don’t because we don’t know the spirit of God as well as we should. But this will change soon, and the world with it. Until we learn to live by the saying “I store my meat in the belly of my brother” we will never truly know Gods glory for creation. The church of acts lived by this saying, and because they did the glory of God was strongly revealed to the world through them. They lived as a true community, a diversity unified by faith. Faith you can fall from if you chose

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@tendaimsimang8630 Re: Peter Fair comment, and good point. Peter is worried that Jesus is getting ready to be taken away. But Jesus knows this is what must happen. It is leading to the cross. But Peter is jumping in the middle, trying to prevent anything from happening to Jesus. Then, as you properly stated, Jesus intervenes, and says the words “get behind me Satan”. He’s addressing the thought. He’s addressing Peters fear, which is an emotion from Satan. Remember, this is the same Peter who denied Jesus three times. This is Peter before the cross. This is Peter before Pentecost. Peter has not received the Holy Spirit. Peter does not currently have a new heart and a new spirit. The new covenant has not been enacted until the one who made it has died - Hebrews 9:17. Peter does not have the spirit of Christ in him..... I think it is a stretch to say Adam and Eve fell from the faith. That is not what we are supposed to learn from this biblical event. Adam and Eve literally had no rules but one. There was no law. The only rule they had was, they could not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is a picture of the Law. And anyone who eats from it will surely die. We are only called to eat from the tree of Life, which is clearly a picture of Jesus. Adam and Eve’s problem was not unbelief. What was the hook that got them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? They wanted to know right from wrong. They wanted wisdom. They wanted to be like God. Christians are doing the same thing today with the law. They are pushing it as if it’s somehow what Christians are called to do.. This is why the law is called a ministry of condemnation and death. Adam and Eve thought they were doing something good when they ate from the tree. This had nothing to do with unbelief, and everything to do with chasing after a system of rules to please God, instead of chasing after God. Jesus (the tree of Life) is all we need for godly living. When you use verses that refer to departing from the faith, you need to see the entire context surrounding it. The context will either be referring to unbelievers who have heard the gospel, they tasted it, but in the end they chose to follow way towards something different as a means of salvation. They fall away toward the law. In other cases, the context is referring to people who are believers, but are deceived by a different message. In those cases we read absolutely nothing about them going to hell or losing salvation.. That is man, drawing a conclusion that simply is not existent in the scripture. In fact, to a degree, I would say this is what you were innocently doing right now. You've heard the message that we are saved through faith, apart from works, it is a gift, and anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Yeah, you are innocently departing from this message of salvation, through faith, alone, and falling towards a message that we can lose salvation. Of course, it sounds to me is that you are saved and fully embraced by Christ, but you're continually falling towards a message that requires you to abandon your confidence of faith, and trust in your human effort. For example, if you told a lie bout how much you were tithing, you would be afraid God might kill you. At least that's what I have to assume you believe because that is what you believe happened to Ananias, to a degree. Regarding Ananias and Sapphira, being simultaneously filled by Satan and believers at the same time. You claim you did not make that statement, but rather that I did. Acts 4:32 tells us that “all of the believers were one heart and one mind”. Acts 5:3 tells us the Ananias heart was filled with Satan. So there are only two conclusions we can come to. The first one is that Ananias was not a believer, and his heart was filled with Satan. The second position, which you seem to be strongly taking, is that Ananias's heart was filled with Christ, and then filled with Satan. You tell me, which position are you taking? It appears that you’re arguing that they were believers. So I think we’re just playing semantics here by suggesting you're not holding the position that I described. We cannot find a single verse that tells us they were saved. You have drawn conclusions of them being believers but yet there is no scriptural evidence of that. Consider if we had to put them on trial in front of a judge and prove they were believers. How could you make the case? There's nothing that could be used to put legs on the argument that they were Christians. I acknowledge the story is a little odd, and, indeed, can be very confusing. It would've been nice if it was clearer. You said God is warning us that we can wander from the faith The Scriptures tell us when we are faithless he will remain faithful.. We are told he will never leave us, and never forsake us. We are told nothing can snatch us from his hand. Can I point out the word eternal? Eternal means “without an end”. If you have eternal life/eternal salvation, explain to me how that can be that you have it one moment, and then suddenly don’t? That would be a total contradiction because there’s nothing eternal about a salvation that can be lost. Jesus does make a comment that you will know them by their fruits. You were incorrectly implying that he was talking about believers. He’s talking about false prophets. People teaching a false gospel. The Scriptures tell us that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. But when we look at the Corinthians, we see them doing all kinds of bad things. So how do we reconcile this? Simple, because the fruits that are being inspected are not our human works. They are the fruits of the Spirit. Unbelievers do all kinds of good things. That’s good human works that God does not view as good fruit. God is not looking at it with an unbelieving rich person donates $100,000 to a charity. Likewise, God is not measuring the fruit of a believer based on their human works. It the Spirts fruit He looks at. Someone one hand, you could give $100 to a homeless person hoping some other person would see you was some super nice guy, and that actually not be viewed as a fruit because it wasn't a word from the spirit, and on the other hand, you could just buy a homeless guy sandwich, but if that work was from the spirit, that would be a fruit of God. It's not about the work itself, it's about where the work came from. If God was killing Christians because they weren’t giving away all of their money to the local church, we would see Christians dropping dead everywhere. Consider this, on one hand, you’ve got a couple who did give some of their money to their commune, but lied, and kept some of it, and then God kills them on the spot. But on the other hand, you’ve got these Corinthians who were having orgies, were getting excessively drunk, abusing the Lord supper, etc. But instead of God killing them, in 1 Corinthians 1, they are called Saints. They are told they lack no spiritual gift. They are told they will be presented as blameless in the end. So how do you reconcile Gods response in Acts versus Corinthians, which were considerably worse? My response here is not intended to be combative, and I’m sorry if it sounds that way. My heart is that you might take a different view as to what Jesus is promising you under the new covenant through his blood. Under the old, we see humans make an agreement with God. Promising they will do everything written in the book of the law. And that was the problem, when the covenant is about a promise that involves humans keeping it, we will lose every time. So God had a plan we never saw coming. Because he could swear by no one greater, He swore by himself. While are choice ARE important, this new covenant is not you promising God that you will behave. This one is you simply being on the receiving end, and having to do nothing but believe. I want to point out one last important fact. Your argument is about Ananias being a believer, and then an unbeliever. Yeah, there’s no reference in all of Acts ever showing us that he was a believer one moment, and then changing his mind. The only thing we know about this man is that he lied about money. I believe you are drawing conclusions that will can hinder your view of Jesus. All I’m saying, is consider weighing out only the things that we know, and not drawing such a very strong conclusion, when there’s no scriptural evidence to support it. I honestly think your intentions are good. But I think it was worthy of having this discussion.

[@Bro-iq5po]

@@jesuswithoutreligion "Jesus does make a comment that you will know them by their fruits. You were incorrectly implying that he was talking about believers. He’s talking about false prophets. People teaching a false gospel" ....... Jesus IS ALSO speaking about people who "claim" to be believers, but their fruit is not evident... It gives context to what he said in Matthew 7 about those who perform "outward works" in His name, but He will say to them "Depart from me, I never knew you". A true disciple of Christ is known by their faith and their fruit, which is the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22. This was Christ grievance against the lukewarm church of Laodicea. They exhibited neither faith nor fruit (Mark 4:19). They relied on their own laurels, world possessions, and were ambivalent about Christ and evangelism ...(Revelation 3:15-17) .... Moreover, gifts, talents, and callings are without repentance - I mean the scandals that have unfolded in the Texas churches over the past few days is proof of that.. That is why Christ told us to look for the fruit and John told us to test the spirits to make sure they are of God. Being a fruit inspector is part of discerning the sprits.

[@jesuswithoutreligion]

@@Bro-iq5po When I quoted Jesus as saying ‘you will know them by their fruits’ I believe I said he was refering to UNBELIEVERS/False prophets. Re: Depart from Me I NEVER knew you, has absolutely zero to do with human performance in 100% everything to do with KNOWING Jesus. He NEVER knew them. Indeed, as Christians, we are called to perform good works and walk in the Spirit. However, consider the Corinthians, who engaged in orgies, got so drunk that some died, and abused the Lord's Supper. Were they not still true disciples? Before you answer, let me highlight some intriguing words the Apostle Paul used to describe them before addressing their misconduct. 1 Cor 1 Verse 2 - He says they we sanctified in Christ Verse 4 - He thanks God for them and said God gave them grace Verse 5 - He tells them they were enriched in Him Verse 6 - HE tell them the testimony of Christ was confirmed in them Verse 7 - He tells them that lack NO spiritual gift And dare I point out what else he says about these adulteress, orgy having people Verse 8 - He says they will be presented as BLAMELESS in the end Now, the Apostle Paul did not, and neither do I, condone such vile behavior. When we begin to assert that being a true disciple of Christ is proven solely by performance (fruit), we risk promoting salvation through performance. This shifts our focus from the truth to merely observing human outward works. The term "lukewarm" has often been wildly misinterpreted in Revelation 3, taking it out of context. It has nothing to do with one's performance. In this letter, both cold and hot water are depicted as good things. So, how can lukewarm be in the middle if neither hot nor cold is bad? Both hot and cold water symbolize salvation. Hot water is beneficial for medicinal purposes, while cold water is refreshing, relaxing, and good for drinking. The residents of Corinth would have understood this metaphor because they had water piped in from far away, both hot and cold, but by the time it arrived, it was lukewarm. Similarly, unbelievers, like lukewarm water, serve no purpose. And if we simply read the context, he comes right out and tells them what they need to do to fix this ‘lukewarm’ issue. He doesn’t make a single reference to doing more good deeds or committing less sin. And that’s because neither one of those are going to fix their problem of being unbelievers. Jesus is literally knocking on the door and apparently they’re not opening the door to their heart to let Him in. So, Just like in Matthew 7, what they have is a KNOWING Jesus problem. *Rev 3:25 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.* I don’t think I know enough about your position to say this about you, but generally speaking, people who teach as you do have very little to say about BELIEVING in Jesus, through faith, and a lot to say about human performance. Their salvation doctrine is pointing in the wrong direction. Regarding "Being a fruit inspector is part of discerning the spirits" - I must reiterate that while we should indeed strive to perform good deeds, judging human actions as the sole evidence misses the gospel message. If you had looked at the Corinthians, you might have thought they bore no fruit. However, the Apostle Paul saw it differently. The fruit being inspected is not about performance but the fruit of the Spirit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit (Matthew 7:18). Even when the Corinthians indulged in orgies and drank excessively, their fruit, when inspected, was still where it needed to be. So let me reiterate again that we ARE called for good works and we SHOULD avoid sin ALL THE TIME. However, the idea that Christians can make some really stupid decisions and outwards look like foolish is simply not biblical, and to teach that kind of stuff is what leads some many unbelievers away from Christ. They see us as hypocrites. So, instead let’s do our best to service God, but let’s also be willing to own that we ALL stumble in many ways (some more that others). When we do that we admit that we are weak, and that are righteousness is 100% through Him alone….and dare I say it…..that includes those dirty bad decision making Corinthians.

[@lesabooth5243]

Oh bulldookie, this incident was the beginning of the inquisitions done by the hands of men.

[@fgagaerhjhjyfyjfyyjkf]

The first time you have a chance at the top is the second one you get to go in and get a job at a restaurant or a bar or a bar and you can get your money and then go back in the store or whatever