Why Did the Perfect Environment Kill Them?

[@freedomwriter1995]

Overcoming adversity tends to bring out the best in us.

[@vorosorsos6278]

I don't think it is nessesary. If it is, and even 3:38 shows this, then manufactured adversity somehow will bring out even better versions of ourselves. Dictators can use this reasoning...

[@taliawtf6944]

As in nature, survival of the fittest and "fittest" can be many things but the act of becoming fitter for the struggle brings a natural purpose to life that a foolish utopia never could.

[@maddhatter3564]

@@vorosorsos6278 the evidence is all around you, we never had all these problems when people had to struggle for a basic lifestyle.

[@maddhatter3564]

@@taliawtf6944 well said.

[@billyjonesy2972]

The idea that “Overcoming adversity tends to bring out the best in us.” made me think. Activities can challenge us as individuals, such as participating in sports (not just watching sports), camping, kayaking, white water rafting, learning new things, reading, taking a college course, etc. BTW, Universe 25 is discussed on Wikipedia under the topic “Behavioral sink.”

[@darthhodges]

One thing that coincides with the mental health crisis is a lack of purpose. In the past everyone had the same purpose, survival. When that got too easy providing for your family or ensuring your admittance into heaven became the most common. As those have become less common more and more people lack purpose. It's possible to find it in a career, but that can have it's own downsides, hence the term "workaholic". Some find it through political activism, but many of those have embraced extreme views in order to find something worth getting that worked up about.

[@Blakehx]

Very true… sadly it brings several people to mind and perfectly describes my own sister!

[@AE-pv9vc]

Depends on your world view. We weren't created to 'survive,' it became a task handed to us when Adam fell. Sin has consequences...

[@homeontherange733]

@@AE-pv9vc You do know that the story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor?

[@Republican_Banana]

​@@homeontherange733 If you do believe the Bible, then Adam and Eve is literal with an underlying narrative.

[@homeontherange733]

@@Republican_Banana Religion did not come about until after the last ice age. The Torah was certainly not the first religious writings. Hindu was first. Then there was the Sumerian culture with their tables which sounds more plausible. The very facts of a literal Adam and eve being only a few thousand years ago does not seem plausible. Homosapien's date back 130-160,000 years. The Sumerian Tablets tell the story of the creation of human beings. They tell how they created a race that is more developed than the Homo Erectus species by using the DNA of primates and their own DNA, and to use them as slave workers. Your reasoning is circular in that what you believe is embedded to your upbringing from a child and as such, your only proof is what you were taught. I too have experienced cognitive dissidence after years of a certain beliefs was challenged.

[@GuardianTactician]

A chilling observation found in the experiment was that mice who were moved from Universe 25 to other similar set-ups brought their broken behaviours with them and caused the same collapse to happen. It just started earlier.

[@einsam_aber_frei]

Perhaps it could be a virus, a mental illness or they have become zombies...

[@davidsellers3639]

Wow

[@BubushiByNature]

This sits perfectly well with the theory of Frankel, placing purpose as the most basic need, stronger than basic food and shelter, as opposed to Maslow's pyramid

[@LiberatedMind1]

Or they were overcrowded.

[@THETRIVIALTHINGS]

That was a prophetic experiment.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith

[@johnlopez4089]

Was that agent Smith or the architect?

[@SwordFighterPKN]

@@johnlopez4089 Mr. Smith

[@Nmdixon-cu7vm]

@@johnlopez4089Smith from the first movie when he captured morpheus.

[@Kevin-sr8yx]

It’s the smell!

[@Tethloach1]

Matrix could be built in 2075 and have trillions born inside it as simulations.

[@uncaboat2399]

They proved that it is possible to die of boredom.

[@Valoric]

and you can make even heaven boring

[@bjornanderson3645]

@@Valoric not that it exists, but the concept. Yes.

[@jerrebrasfield4231]

​@Valoric nothing heavenlike about being stuck in a cage.

[@bjornanderson3645]

@@jerrebrasfield4231 are you sure that they understood that they were stuck?

[@mgntstr]

@@bjornanderson3645 they can hear and smell the things outside their confine, yes.

[@bobnat2]

I'm 66 now. Looking back, the best times of my life, when I felt the best about what I was doing and where I was going, were the busiest times of my life. It's amazing how much can be done in a day when one has purpose and goals. Days which ran almost non-stop from start to finish were hard and tiring yet fulfilling. I miss those days.

[@hoonhwang4778]

We all experience it in our lives many times in fleeting moments, immersed in things we really love. When ego is all forgotten, there are just those objects and true Self awaring them only, and we find ultimate happiness and willingly go back to it. Spiritual seekers for thousands of years have called it true goal of life, self realization, or God realization. From that perspective, these lives of ours now are only temporary and like dream states where all things are happening in our own limited consciousness which we can and eventually without choice, will break out from. In that sense, this "UTOPIA" test is irrelevant.😊

[@steprockmedia]

Video games and live games like D&D may offer some insight. You struggle and struggle to overcome obstacles, but after you achieve comfort and success, the game becomes boring. When that happens, you either quit playing or you find random, silly things to do that have nothing to do with the point of the game.

[@Arcjaw]

That's a parallel I never thought I'd see. Especially considering it makes sense

[@TheOldBailey4135]

D & D is occultism

[@nymbus4376]

Makes a lot of sense actually. Lost count of how many times I played skyrim and fallout for the grind

[@meloelebi1996]

Nearly all stories involve conflict and struggle for a reason, from folktales, love stories, and books to video games. And they often end not long after the struggle is over.

[@maddhatter3564]

good take on it, i wouldnt have used a video game analagy but its not inaccurate.

[@alphacause]

Expecting to grow as a person or flourish as a society, without the strife that would elicit that personal growth and societal flourishing, is like expecting your muscles to get stronger, without it being exercised with challenging resistance.

[@craigsurette3438]

Mammal nervous systems can only handle a certain density of social interactions, before these evolved systems cannot keep up and start to unravel. All of the prosperity and comfort in the world will not stop that from happening.

[@JohnKoenig-db8lk]

That certainly explains New York.

[@elsadelagarzaevia9219]

Yeah this was seen idk if in these mice or other mice preference and changes in mating behavior... it changed as the population density per space increased

[@Willsmiff1985]

@@elsadelagarzaevia9219 even without the actual density, tech and more recently social media has created the illusion of density in our brains. We can be alone in the middle of nowhere and still feel stressed by the demands, opinions, and judgment of others.

[@buddermonger2000]

Another relevant factor is that religion is how countries managed to form, as tribes could work together

[@G8Grape]

What you say is true plus, they were trapped and thier instincts knew this, a gilded cage is still a cage,

[@dzcav3]

Tragedy is not a necessary component of human existence, but struggle is. People who live in temperate climates (with seasons) are more prosperous than those who live in tropical paradises. The requirement to plan for seasonal adversity contributes to innovation and work ethic.

[@JohnSmith-yc6uv]

This doesn't account for the native Americans. Who didn't even invent the wheel.

[@1wun1]

​@@JohnSmith-yc6uv Or for middle Eastern and Mediterranean empires vs the Nordics in the same period.

[@JohnSmith-yc6uv]

@@1wun1 Indeed.

[@No_Fun_Allowed]

So basically the study says that happiness and a feeling of worth can’t exist in a vacuum, it has to be compared to misfortune/tragedy/discomfort in order to have value Either way, it’s a fascinating study

[@Futil1ty]

I knew this is what this was about as soon as I saw the title, LOL

[@markkelly5533]

Was it the American Presbyterian preacher Cotton Mather, who said; "righteousness begat prosperity, and the daughter ate the mother"?

[@trekkienzl2862]

Here in 🇳🇿 New Zealand, we have free healthcare, free social services, subsidized education, free welfare that sometimes pays more than minimum wage jobs (I work in welfare services, I know), and yet, in recent years, we've seen an uptick in youth crime and random acts of violence in the streets. I've come across one specific case where an 19 year old, who was on welfare, still felt the need to join a gang and was arrested for robbing a jewelry store. Also, slightly unrelated, the men at our office nowadays seem unwilling to interact with us women or be alone in a room with another female co-worker as if they're intimidated by us. Life here in NZ and the West in general is somewhat eerily similar to Universe 25.

[@e0o9kii]

Men in your office are keeping their distance from women in the office because they know that nowadays, they can easily be accused of harassment or inappropriate behavior just for saying good morning to them. Case in point, I once had a new girl in our office who accused me of making her feel uncomfortable simply because I tried to welcome her to our office. She was new here, also happened to be from California (I'm also originally from CA) so I thought I'd just say hi and make small talk. She didn't engage much so I figured she was either busy or not interested so I said, have a good rest of the day and walked away. The next Monday, my manager informed me that she reported me to her manager who then reported it to my manager. I explained the situation to my manager and she (my manager is also a woman) was fortunately on my side and understood it to just be a misunderstanding of some kind so dismissed it. That's why I now only interact with women in the office I already know (mainly from my immediate team) or work with on a regular basis as well as "Violet" (not her real name) who's a close friend from high school and now works in the same office as me, albeit in a different Department.

[@trekkienzl2862]

@@e0o9kii That's horrible. It's unfortunate that some people would so freely make a baseless accussation just for saying hello.

[@jelkel25]

​@@e0o9kiiIt wasn't a misunderstanding, it was a power play. You should look at your contract and the rules, see if there's any about false accusations though don't rely on any rules to be enforced these days, it's just a handy thing to know when there's petty individuals around who need to make power plays and feed off the negative attention.

[@cobusbrits2]

I made the awful decision to complement my rather nasty ex manager on a particularly good looking blue jersey she was wearing. Got the most foul and suspicious look ever from a woman. Stopped talking to woman altogether seeing things got so woke after that. Things went downwards from that day and a year later was suspended from work due to a lot of trumped up charges by her. Attorney said they took a 'gunshot aporoach' and hoped anything would stick. It didnt and they offered 3 months salary. We settled for 6 and off I went to start my own business. Another 2 years passed and she resigned due to stress. In the meanwhile I have come to realize I dont speak woman. I dont go to church anymore, it got so stale but I am and will stay a believer. A good christian friend invited me over for socials and me and my wife met a nice young couple. The girl had lost both her parents and is going through a tough time. She is a sharp and we spoke some on her situation seeing there is some similarities. Some of what I said stuck and she 'invited' me back to church seeing that is the only place were we can continue the conversations as I had been there one or twice. I am in two minds about this. Would love to 'mentor' the girl but very wary of all woman. Would have loved to have her as a daugher... If there is any 'purpose' left in my life, it would be to inform the young generation and anybody who would listen how life works and why not to make the mistakes I made based on my limited understanding and I made a lot of mistakes if not all of them.... But I guess that is how old men generally want to express themselves in their latter years...

[@conscript900]

Well it isn't free at all, it all comes out of your taxes. But yes people who lack in something to give themselves purpose are going to go out and seek that purpose. If I may recommend, for the gentleman who will engage with you try to introduce them to something like reenactment, buhurt or hema. It may do the ticket

[@radioflyer68911]

Try that experiment again but also add steadily increasing numbers of highly perturbed mice from the outside. See how that one goes.

[@TaLeng2023]

Of course it'll get better, they're getting diversity! /s 😂

[@patrickclifford50]

Doing it only once is truly a JOKE! This project needs to be repeated consistently to really see the result with accurate data. This is a very economical project and a worthwhile experiment.

[@VivAtreyu]

Similar experiments were done more than once with similar reaults. See the Wikipedia page about behaviorial sinks. They mention a few od them.

[@patrickclifford50]

Needs to repeated a LOT more to get more reliable data...

[@einsam_aber_frei]

I wonder if it could be some virus or fungus that altered their brains when it is overcrowded.

[@Riftrender]

They just needed brown mice to come in and vote.

[@Post-Trib]

/sarcasmoff

[@davidclaudy4822]

Nice. 👍🏻 😊

[@bjornanderson3645]

Does that halt the process?

[@whereswaldo5740]

Speedy Gonzales.

[@LiberatedMind1]

💀

[@tuckster9903]

There is actually something I disagree with in this video. I think tragedy is an integral part of the human experience. But so are joy and love. Experiencing tragedy brings us closer to understanding the positive aspects like joy.

[@yodamanrulz176]

I really love to listen to this guy speak. He speaks very clearly, he enunciates, and he speaks at a perfect pace, so as to understand him and what he is saying is a blessing to behold. So many people speak inverse of this capability, running over themselves. partially pronouncing words and speaking in a brand of accent then only people in their vicinity can understand at best. People who speak gibberish Speak are what is the condemning this world to the joke/woke... Idiocracy Prime. I don't remember his name but I know he's a top notch speaker/ politician, no joke, he speaks from the heart as best I have seen yet. I wish politicians had the power to make stuff happen though, with the law breaking paying the price with the quickness.

[@dinkmartini3236]

One day the most powerful and influential mice woke up and realized that they had everything they could ever want or need. It was not in their nature to be content with their achievement. Instead the only thing that mattered to them was gaining more power and influence. There was only one thing left that they had not conquered: The free will of the other mice. Undaunted by the morality of their task they set in immediately to take this last thing from the citizens of mouse land.

[@bradspsychedelium]

My theory is that without predators to remove the mutation bearing runts from the breeding population, mutations built-up to the point that species attractive pheromones stopped working. The animals diverged too far genetically to see each other as the same species and stopped breeding. It took about 20 generations of utopia to destroy their species. Correction, it took only 10 generations until the last pup was born.

[@mahnamahna3252]

That as well as density. They were too crowded with nothing much to do. I dont know what the male to female ratio was. Many animals don't do well with too many males/females. Wild or Domesticated. The males battle, the females are bred to aggressively.

[@bradspsychedelium]

@@mahnamahna3252 Actually, the utopia cages never become as densely populated as normal cages so it doesn't seem that overpopulation was the problem. Also, researchers were never able to start them breeding again by putting small numbers in a normal cage. The problem must be genetic or deeply psychological and it doesn't bode well for us humans, for we too are living in a utopia where resources are plentiful enough for all our runts to survive to pass on their mutations. It's been ten generations since the industrial revolution and we've almost stopped breeding too...

[@mahnamahna3252]

@@bradspsychedelium a mother rodent will typically cannibalize their offspring if something is defective (or there's scarcity)..idk I agree that humans and other animals definitely need drive, struggle, play, connection with others. We've seen what happens with many captive animals which are only given the basic requirements for life. They don't do well. I used to raise rats and rabbits and always had different activities for them. So I didn't experience issues as described in this experiment. It just seems so basic.

[@bradspsychedelium]

@@mahnamahna3252 I wouldn't be surprised if the mother ate pups with extra or missing limbs, but that doesn't apply to the ones that are merely too slow or stupid to evade predators. Those are the mutation bearing pups that wouldn't survive in the wild, and which accelerate genetic drift when they survive in the utopia cage. I'm certain that's the variable that causes extinction every time the experiment is run, and I suspect that this is the biggest problem on the minds of any secret cabal that might be ruling the world. If it's true, is there any other solution than eugenics?

[@mahnamahna3252]

@@bradspsychedelium Whoa there... Eugenics is not the solution to our governing bodies' (and cronies) interference with basic humanity. Most of us are motivated to find solutions for conditions that have harmed ourselves and our loved ones. (The researcher who chose their field because of loosing someone dear to them and want to find a way to eliminate it) Often our goals are squashed by bureaucracy and the masses just getting by by not rocking the boat I think of Musk and all his haters who also worship Gates. It's absurd and destructive. Many peoples need to be excepted and not go against the grain leads to all of our demise. We need accountability For ourselves and our leaders

[@timbliss9587]

That is horrific! Humans be warned!

[@martyfenton6184]

We were warned. Utopia is based on a fictional place created in Thomas More's 1516 satirical novel.

[@mustang607]

There is a hope for humans that is missing in mice. That hope is using our faculty of reason.

[@Blakehx]

@@mustang607The person is smart, humans are dumb, stupid, dangerous animals and you know it!” Agent K (Men in Black)

[@potatoheadpokemario1931]

​@@mustang607 seeing the trends, I doubt so

[@sciencegremlin8307]

​@@mustang607reason won't solve this. We are going extinct this century.

[@eyefreely9682]

Glorious Purpose.... without purpose, existence has little to no meaning. I'm feeling it right now...

[@oogabooga52]

Friedrich Nietzsche has been proven correct in a science experiment. Nice.

[@dillonwagers2975]

How?

[@oogabooga52]

@dillonwagers2975 He explained that if men had a world without struggle, then they would be doomed to their destruction of their own doing.

[@maddhatter3564]

i'll look it up. ive been saying similar for decades. good to know a famous thinker said the same (only im sure much better)

[@bigdogkool2546]

Right on the spot soft live makes soft minds

[@handlesshouldntdefaulttonames]

Ah yes, the mouse utopia is catching on in media. I've been screaming about the implications of this research for a couple of decades now, things must be hard for us or we will not appreciate them. Our cities look like the utopias where men and women preen their appearance for themselves but refuse to breed and deepen.

[@herbertfawcett7213]

Tragedy is not required, but struggle is!

[@fnfjedi]

The older I get the more I think that the Hobbits had it right all along...

[@lightborn9071]

Nature is evolved to evolve further, to keep going. Stagnation is the death of once purpose.

[@MIchaelPerkins-bc9zf]

Finally! In the 70's I read the results. I didn't see it as applicable to us until the 90's. Now start widening our look at the Stanford Prison experiment.

[@lupaswolfshead9971]

Too safe we are hardwired to look for danger and when there is no danger paranoia sets in .

[@ChickenSoupMusic]

I’ve been pointing out this experiment for years. Our modern society directly reflects these issues

[@dlmyrs]

I wonder if there’s a difference between big cities and rural areas? My assumption is yes, but I see decline in rural areas with businesses closing and new businesses struggling to find employees.

[@natashamudford4011]

A lot of drug use in rural areas, too. I was surprised to learn that.

[@dlmyrs]

@@natashamudford4011yes. I’m in rural Illinois. Meth and pills.

[@handlesshouldntdefaulttonames]

Make anything too easy and they will fail for lack of needing to exert themselves, make anything too hard and they will find what comforts they can.

[@justaneditygangstar]

@@natashamudford4011I’m not. You gonna smoke crack, it’s better to do it in the woods or desert

[@landrypierce9942]

Rural areas decline because people leave them. Our culture denigrates and discourages most rural work. It’s primarily the urban areas that decline like mouse utopia, though not exclusively.

[@wrongthinker843]

Relative to the lifespan of a mouse, humans are speedrunning the utopia experiment. So much for being intelligent.

[@josephang9927]

I guess that is why we invent games and new challenges... To entertain ourselves and keep sanity.

[@CopiousAmountsOfDerp]

"Bread and Circus" reflects concepts used to pacify and control the masses.

[@sterlingdennett]

The struggle gives your life meaning, and pulls a community together, similar to the way an external enemy (barbarians at the gates) can promote unity and cooperation in a group or tribe.

[@G8Grape]

Someone brought up that mammals have social batteries and need to recharge before continued interactions, these mice were forced to live in close proximity, also they were trapped and surely thier instincts knew this as well, a gilded cage is still a cage, to be trapped is maddening, people who live on islands they cannot leave go through similar mental health issues, that's why for human survival the space program (that basically is halted) is so important, our Earth is an island and mankind needs to spread out, Carl Sagan believed that as explorers risked the expanse of the ocean to find 'new worlds' so today should mankind travel on generation ships through space seeking 'new worlds' for mankind to flourish on, even just the idea of being able to expand can bring mental calm and clarity,

[@Monnoponno34627]

Mouse Utopia is nice. But it is about as accurate as that prison expirement. The Jolly Heretic has a good few minute video about some of it's problems. Such as, but not limited to: -the mice becoming inbred due to previous genetic relations pre and during expirement -the expirement taking over 20 (something) other colonies to complete -and some other stuff

[@JACK_TheAllSeeingEye]

The one thing the mice experiment didn't have: SPACE. They could not distance themselves from each other. Every species has an optimal 'density'. We are nowhere near our density. FACT: You can fit the entire population of the Earth into Texas with the population density of Manhattan. There is a shitload of room.

[@maninthemiddleground2316]

3:39 Tragedy whether small or big is part of life in this imperfect world.

[@ladymacbethofmtensk896]

One important detail about the Mouse Utopia that never seems to be mentioned is the obvious fact that SOMEONE was giving the mice everything they could ever want. With humans, nobody seems to be doing that. Now that is not to say that there are people who WANT to give everyone their every desire----those I call intellectuals.

[@roystonlodge]

True, but the _cost_ of personal comfort, let alone survival, has been greatly reduced over time. It can be argued that many of the widespread social phenomena (pathologies?) of today were actually pretty common in the past, but only among the very rich. As the cost of living has fallen over time it means that more and more people can _afford_ to indulge in the same sort of phenomena (pathologies?) that in the past were only accessible to the rich.

[@Kevin-sr8yx]

Don’t politicians seem to be doing just that?

[@ladymacbethofmtensk896]

@@Kevin-sr8yx Not successfully.

[@steprockmedia]

Yeah, I think similar to what roystonlodge was saying: even if we're not being "given" everything we need, life is still comfortable for most people. You go to the store and get food. Your home has AC, clean water, and every convenience you might want. There's nothing you really HAVE to do except go to work. And once you don't have to do that anymore...well, you'll die.

[@3M_TA3]

​@roystonlodge Just substitute the word "phenomenon" with "luxury beliefs," and you'll be closer to the truth.

[@feartheghus]

Not enough space was why.

[@sterlingdennett]

I can see some problems with the mouse/rat utopia experiment (Calhoun worked with BOTH mice and rats): 1.) In the wild, when mice cannot find a niche to fill in their community/society, they leave to found their own, or live in solitude. These rodents could not do that. They were FORCED to stay. 2.) There was NO struggle to survive, everything was too easy. All that pent-up energy and drive had to go somewhere, and it went somewhere bad. 3.) It's possible the psychological effect of feeling trapped worked on them, as no matter how large the rodent "universe" was, it was nothing compared to real, live, wild nature.

[@Isma34feb]

This is one of the greatest channels in KZbin. Thank you

[@bjornanderson3645]

Holy shit! What??

[@RickBlaine]

Thank you for this posting. It is not as famous as it should be.EVERYBODY should watch the experiment in FULL. They wait a week while thinking about their lifestyle. Then watch it again. It should change your life.

[@meRickard]

This experiment is often used to draw conclusions about humans, but those neglect two key things, mice are prey animals, we not, and more importantly, as Nick here refers to, the universe is more than material, and we humans are aware of that whereas mice aren't.

[@Amlux1984]

True, but many humans now have the materialist worldview.

[@consciousrosin]

The same guys who studied this created our society with some additional madness.

[@apersons4525]

Conflict, adversity, struggle and hardship create a necessity for innovation creativity and wisdom

[@mjgbabydragonlet]

Great job Christian!

[@TakenWasTakenYT]

In this evil world where satan is trying to drag us down to the pits of hell at every turn, tragedy is necessary, without tragedy we become weak and turn away from god.

[@cherilynnfisher5658]

"Some people have some of the answers. Nobody has all of the answers. Way too many are not even asking the right questions". --- Unknown Study, discussion, and debate about "Universe 25" has been my life's work for over 40 years. Calhoun observed the rise and fall of "a system". Forces of destructive malevolence occur naturally in all systems. When these overwhelm stability the normal patterns of behavior that drive continuity are lost. Bottom line; "Chaos kills"!

[@ctreid87]

Beard...Friday? Better late than never, Why Minutes team! Love the content!

[@meloelebi1996]

Without struggle, you really do begin to lose the value of good and what you were blessed with in the first place. Without a realistic value of loss, success and abundance is just... existence.

[@outsideropinion6561]

One of my favorite studies (and far from the only one he did with mice in their own world). I knew what it would be from reading the headline. Amazing how we need adversity

[@alsomarkezuma]

Yes, tragedy is a necessary component of human existence. This experiment proves it When life is cheap, when there is no struggle, when tragedy is taken out of the equation, the equation dies.

[@natashamudford4011]

Did the scientist remove the dead mice, or leave them in the cage?

[@RobertHenson72653]

Why is Bologna never made square to fit the bread, All other lunch meats are made round and square?

[@maddhatter3564]

they DO make square bologna (or at least they used to)

[@mikebrines5708]

Because bologna belongs on a bun

[@RobertHenson72653]

@@mikebrines5708 That doesn't fly in my book LOL.

[@HowlinWilf13]

Ah, the struggles of life!

[@InaudibleHippo]

Personally I think the mive were bored. If hou gave the bigger spaces and gave them aomething to do then it would be fine. People have pet mive and those mice are fine in a eutopia, but the people let them out to play and run and they are not over crowded

[@Ggdivhjkjl]

What was the mice's grand narrative?

[@Anti-CornLawLeague]

As Aaron Clarey put it, it won’t end until the electricity goes out.

[@roystonlodge]

Has this experiment ever been replicated? I've become pretty skeptical about these famous experiments from so long ago, considering how many of the ones that were taught as objective fact in my first year psychology and sociology classes have been largely debunked over time.

[@BillHimmel]

No, it hasn't !

[@bjornanderson3645]

Are you saying that what the transphobic man says is not a absolute truth?

[@dillonwagers2975]

That's a good point, worth looking into. As any good even science student knows you can't draw a straight line conclusion with only two points of information.

[@mylesleggette7520]

You could pretty easily replicate this experiment yourself if you wanted though. Just rent out some warehouse space, hire some students, and go to PetCo. Probably would only cost you a few thousand a month, if that.

[@bjornanderson3645]

@@mylesleggette7520 yes! Everyone lives in a big city!

[@Outofbox11]

I think what we are in is due to technology that are causing disconnect. Difference between before and after smartphones and social media is HUGE!

[@1nob0dy]

This experiment has long been investigated: 1) The mice did not receive genetic diversity. 2) They were rarely cleaned, and the environment was very dirty. 3) There was poor tunnel construction, and the dominant males took all the females, etc. 4) Look at nature, for example, at rabbits in Australia, and you’ll see what happens in ideal conditions: reproduction, territorial takeover. :) So the author made a video without even reading a few articles or watching KZbin videos on this topic.

[@marcusmoonstein242]

My take is that any species that evolved in an environment of struggle will collapse if there is no longer any struggle - including us. The very intelligence that we use to make our lives easier is going to create the environment that will end us.

[@alfredmorency8296]

You offer us only well-being. Scott: [mechanically] Food and drink and happiness mean nothing to us. McCoy: We must be about our job. Scott: Suffering in torment and pain, laboring without end. McCoy: Dying and crying and lamenting over our burdens. McCoy, Scott: [together] Only this way can we... be... happy. Star Trek I. Mudd 1967

[@Doctor-Stoppage]

History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes coming up,' Voltaire reportedly said. The observation refers to the argument that fortunes of nations or civilizations or societies rise and fall based on the character of their people, and this character is heavily influenced by the material and moral condition of their society. The idea was a staple of history writing from ancient Greece until it began to decline in popularity after the middle of the twentieth century.” ― Dan Carlin, The End is Always Near: Apocalyptic Moments, from the Bronze Age Collapse to Nuclear Near Misses

[@BillHimmel]

This experiment has NEVER been independently replicated!!! So don't make too much of it, if anything at all!

[@JesbaamSanchez]

This is like to ask the question why does evil exist, perhaps to answer the very reason why the Utopia cannot exist. Because if you take away suffering and evil, there is no balance and hence in a system is cannot exist without the other.

[@graysonshaw1621]

Nice video. Cool idea

[@2bNIKEt1]

Nihilism is an existential crisis

[@asdconservative]

As a Geography nerd, I have known this for a long time due to my demographic research. No one believed me

[@insanecowstar3008]

This experiment proves that the combination of boredom, too much free time, and lack of environmental stresses (not psychologically made up ones) destroys all animals' abilities to function.

[@killjoy197]

I've been pointing out this experiment and how it compares to humans for years and every one tells me we aren't mice and we're too smart for this to effect us and blah blah blah. Glad we'll be able to see who was right within my life time.

[@HowlinWilf13]

Be careful what you wish for!

[@matthewdancz9152]

This happens in human cities. We create nearly perfect environments, for humans, and over populate until the city completely collapses. The US is here now, except it is because of online communities.

[@bjornanderson3645]

Have online communitys overpopulated usa?

[@jedzoku]

Universe 25 was just one of many experiments, I want to hear about the ones that worked rather than the one sided argument that this one is in isolation.

[@SCComega]

Ultimately the greatest issues are roughly threefold; firstly is the environment we are in, in terms of physical space. Most areas are not divided in a way as to promote social cohesion - consider Dunbar's number and scales of human connectivity. Close cohesion of 120-200 persons is roughly what one would expect from a neighborhood, or a small village, and is the limit of friendships / where you truly know and trust everyone around you. Most small towns / villages in rural areas end up roughly 10x this, somewhere between 1000-3000 persons, which is roughly the limit on individual face-name matching recognition. Barriers on movement to ensure maximum interaction of lower scales on these magnitudes in our day-to-day is necessary, and is the prime correlation in regards to the bystander effect in trials, the more that people are surrounded by masses of people they do not truly recognize as 'people', the more apathetic and antisocial they become in their day to day. Everyone moving to a rural lifestyle not being entirely doable, the unfortunate solution to this measure is central planning and construction of cities and their subsidiary units with human scales of interaction in mind. building cities out of self-contained sub-units of 1000-3000 persons at their maximum, with community and in-person interaction bolstering designs, are ultimately a necessity. Our economy making it difficult to afford children, our legal system making marriages and children legal risks, and the housing crisis making it so most do not have room to have children in their lives, has also played a major factor into the environmental aspects of our current decline. Secondly, it is unfortunately a fact that smart devices and the modern internet have killed normative in-person social interaction. There's really no debate here. There are so many well known issues here I don't feel the need to go into, but I could at detail if requested, I suppose. Thirdly, is the lack of community cohesive actions. Churches are one factor, but things like parades, fairs, fireworks shows, etc. have all seen significant decreases in budget, attendance, and outreach in recent years. There are fewer and fewer activities providing both social interaction, a unified cultural talking point, and regular novelty, and this has also fed into the antisocial feedback loop.

[@trevorthompson6825]

Considering I've seen you talk with whatifalthist (Rudyard) before, did his video on the topic inspire this? Granted, your take on it is very good and well thought out too, just curious.

[@ChrisSpeake]

Zero conflict causes conflict.

[@Leto2ndAtreides]

The definition of perfect was likely incorrect. It ended up overcrowded and stressful.

[@mustang607]

So if we metaphorically look at the mice breaking down as breaking eggs, then we see the metaphorical omelette still failed go be made.

[@Theggman83]

Mouse immigration is the answer. ☝️🤓

[@Valoric]

Only young male islamic mice though

[@bjornanderson3645]

@@Valoric will that reverse the problem?

[@skaruts]

For every force there's an opposing force. Things balance themselves, as long as there's no artificial/manufactured forces pushing them not to. The mice died out because the utopia was artificially being enforced. There was no natural force keeping the balance, keeping their resources scarce, so other opposing forces arose. The mice no longer needed to keep themselves busy (and healthy) trying to survive, so they had all the time in the world to get bored and start looking for their version of first-world-problems to get busy with. Life is hardwired to reproduce and gather resources, not to just be enjoying itself. If you take away the need for Life to perform its core functions, then it's just going to malfunction and die.

[@shadowhound5113]

The problem is that for you to know happiness is to know suffering first.

[@rickardt1222]

Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. Hard Times create strong men. God is nature and everything goes in cycles. We are supposed to learn from our mistakes, only then can we avoid tragedy.

[@TheeLynnChase]

The mouse Utopia also never reached peak capacity and many areas of the enclosure were not used by the mice. In America the birth rate had plummeted by 17% since 2017. JS

[@Post-Trib]

Nick, the problem is all of the white mice. 😉

[@bjornanderson3645]

Will black and brown revert the process?

[@Post-Trib]

@@bjornanderson3645 more welfare queens 👸?

[@miceinoz1181]

Interesting how this can be related to the current generation, pretty well directly.

[@johnguill6129]

Central city planning, even for little rodents, is a bad idea.

[@2Hesiod]

Must have been crowding.

[@jonessoda4me1]

Without a purpose, existence becomes meaningless and unnecessary.

[@dvsfdp313]

Lack of porpuse... you know, a goal, adventure, exploration etc

[@jacobwiren8142]

The perfect environment killed them because it WASN'T THE PERFECT ENVIRONMENT. The entire mouse utopia was a giant misunderstanding from the very beginning! First of all, no one knows what a "perfect" environment is. That's nonsense. We don't know what the "perfect diet" for a mouse is, or the "perfect stimuli" for a mouse is, or any "perfect thing" for a mouse is because that would require us to observe it, which is impossible. The reason it's impossible is because we have no way to objectively measure "perfect" performance in a mouse. If we hypothetically observed a "perfect mouse", how would we KNOW it was perfect? How would we be able to conclusively say that "no mouse can do better"? The answer is that we can't. There is no objective observer outside us capable of peering into the future and confirming our suspicions. We can only wonder. Second, we don't even understand what a "mouse" is. We understand things like cars and computers so intimately that we can take them apart and put them back together and they run just as well as they always have. We can't do that for a mouse or a human. We don't know what consciousness is. We don't know what life itself is. We cannot take these things apart and put them back together without destroying them first. Understanding our own ignorance is the key to understanding the result. Knowing this, the observation is simple: The mice were introduced to an unfamiliar environment with none of the normal problems they had evolved to handle. As a result, the moment a problem appeared, the mice had no idea how to solve it. Their society degenerated as different mice tried different solutions. Some hid from the problem, some became violent, some continued as if nothing was wrong, etc. Ultimately, NONE of the mice found a solution, and the population died. What was the problem? We don't necessarily know. What we DO know is that if the environment WAS optimized for flourishing, then flourishing would have happened. Obviously that was not the case. The scientists proved nothing other than their own ignorance.

[@cherilynnfisher5658]

"WOW"! Thank you for your awesome thoughts! You are correct! Bravo!

[@Anonymousduck161]

“Shower upon him every earthly blessing, drown him in a sea of happiness, so that nothing but bubbles of bliss can be seen on the surface; give him economic prosperity, such that he should have nothing else to do but sleep, eat cakes and busy himself with the continuation of his species, and even then out of sheer ingratitude, sheer spite, man would play you some nasty trick. He would even risk his cakes and would deliberately desire the most fatal rubbish, the most uneconomical absurdity, simply to introduce into all this positive good sense his fatal fantastic element.” -Dostoyevsky, Notes From Underground

[@TheYeeter7]

Fight!

[@Munce72]

Great work Nick! Scooby snacks for you. Praying for Israel and the entire Middle East. My allegiance is to Liberty, and the Repubic.

[@johnhazlett3711]

Part of the problem is without challenge and purpose in life, strange things happen. All welfare and the great society programs have done is promote generational dependence and a sense of entitlement. It also exacerbated lack of personal responsibility in life. Each person's future is primarily a consequence of one's choices and behavior.

[@neilheriot2361]

Interesting.

[@louiseeckert1574]

The Roman Empire fell in part because of a problem they called “Luxus”. The problem of having too much wealth, comfort, and luxury and the problems which that causes...apathy, ignorance, arrogance, childish emotions, and the lack of ability to understand cause and effect for actions. Comfort and convenience morphed strong warrior men into genteel, pacified weaklings who could not defend themselves or anyone else.

[@ThomasMadden-hd1oz]

And then they hired mercenaries who later turned on them.

[@dino.niichan1991]

A little too much blessings is a curse in the long term.

[@armageddonready4071]

After I became “homeless”, and recovered and got a apartment, I gave it up and bought land with nothing on it, basically homeless again. Yet, when you think about it, the land will soon be paid off, and I’m just without a home. Which is fine, because necessity is the mother of invention and when your eating dirt, you discover diamonds.